Empathetic marketing is having a moment. But really, this trend has been a long time coming. Buyers today are savvy, everything is available online, and they have no patience for brands that don’t understand them or their needs. My guest today, Tim Leon, coined the term Return on Empathy and talks about all that companies gain when they engage in more empathetic marketing tactics.
We discuss what empathy marketing means, why marketers should embrace it, and how it applies equality to B2B as well as B2C brands. We share data that shows why buyers are choosing empathetic brands, and why this is not just a trend, but a transformative moment in how we market and sell. And finally, we share actionable strategies to inject more empathy into your marketing – not least of which is understanding where marketing’s limitations end and your culture, leadership, and policies need to also become part of the effort.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Ask customers what challenges they’re facing, not just what they think about your product or service. You’ve got to go deeper to better understand and empathize with them.
- Now more than ever, the companies that portray ads that promote well-being and comfort are the companies that people want to do business with. They don’t want a hard sell, they want to feel good about the brands they’re working with.
- You have to sell to people, whether you’re working B2B or B2C. People want authenticity and empathy from the organizations they work with, no matter what industry they’re in.
“Return on Empathy means if you’re delivering empathy authentically and honestly, you’re building customer loyalty and protected market share.”
— Tim Leon
Episode References:
- Geile Leon Marketing Communications Return on Empathy white paper: https://bit.ly/44MiSrY
- PepsiCo/Ipsos Mori research study on empathy and brands
- Denise Roberson: Mistakes Leaders and Boards Make When Thinking About Purpose
- Lisa McLeod: Selling with Noble Purpose to Win
- Phil Preston: Profit with Purpose
- Emily Vernon: Are You Gathering the Right Customer Insights?
- Sandy Thompson: How to Make People Fall in Love with Your Brand
About Tim Leon, President, Geile Leon Marketing Communications
Tim Leon is the President of Geile Leon Marketing Communications. The firm was founded in 1989 and has served clients locally, regionally, and nationally. The firm is celebrating its 34th year in business and is located in The Hill Neighborhood of St. Louis, Missouri, Tim’s role at the agency includes brand strategy/planning for clients, new business development, and a host of other duties that come with owning a small business!
Connect with Tim Leon:
Geile Leon Marketing Communications: geileon.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timleon
Facebook: facebook.com/GeileLeonMarketingCommunications
Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Empathetic marketing is having a moment. But really this trend has been a long time coming. Buyers today are savvy, everything is available online, and they have no patience for spending money on brands that don’t understand them, or their needs and goals. My guest today, Tim Lyon coined the term return on empathy, and talks about all that companies gain when they engage in more empathetic marketing tactics. The president of Guile Lian marketing communications, a firm founded in 1989, that serves clients locally, regionally and nationally. His firm recently released the return on empathy white paper, and the link will be in the show notes for you. Today we discuss what empathy marketing means, why marketers should embrace it, and how it applies equally to b2b as well as b2c brands. We share data that shows why buyers are choosing empathetic brands, and why this is not just a trend, but a transformative moment in how we market and sell. And finally we share actionable strategies to inject more empathy into your marketing, not least of which is understanding where marketing’s limitations are, and where your culture, leadership and policies need to also become part of the overall effort. Take a listen. Welcome, Tim Leon to the empathy edge podcast, I am super excited to have this conversation with a fellow marketer, and brand strategist about the importance of empathy in marketing, and what it actually means and how to leverage it in a healthy way, and all the things. So welcome to the show.
Tim Leon 02:27
Thanks a lot, Maria. I’m really excited to be here today.
Maria Ross 02:31
So tell us a little bit, Tim, about how you got into this world of marketing. And specifically, what was the epiphany moment where you realized, like many of us marketers do that empathy is actually a superpower when it comes to connecting and engaging with your ideal clients.
Tim Leon 02:49
Sure, it really started in 2018, I did a workshop, I was a participant on finding your why your personal why. And I did a lot of soul searching and what I really came to the conclusion, what really drives my mission in life is to serve people with empathy, so that they can feel their true value. I try to do that, as a leader, I tried to do that in my personal life, some times more successful than others. But empathy, to me is a gift that I feel I have, but it’s really opened a lot of doors because I feel like I can connect to people in a way that really is productive for myself and for the person I’m interacting with. And when the pandemic kids, I sat back and looked at what was going on in the world. And as you can well appreciate Maria, empathy became more and more talked about, not just in every part of society. But in marketing and branding, I started the city. This, what I call pattern, right marketers, really, that were sensitive to it, figuring out, I’ve got to get on board and figure out how to infuse authentic empathy. And you saw examples of folks that didn’t do it, that really kind of didn’t really take into account what was going on in the world, tried to just keep the Evergreen marketing going and plow through a pandemic. That didn’t work so well. And I think the pandemic did this as marketers, it was the first time we could talk to our consumers, kind of under this theme of we’re all in this together. Because Wait, we’re experienced the same things they were. And to me, the companies that got it right where the people that realize that it changed how they did business, to be a little more sensitive to the plight of what people were going through. So that’s kind of how I abroad into our business. And how, you know, it led to this white paper that we wrote called Return on empathy, which is that whole premise of authentic empathy, infused and delivered and branding and marketing has benefits way beyond, you know, you’re doing the right thing, but it has benefits to the bottom line. I mean, it can help build your brand. Yeah, it was the, that was the salutely.
Maria Ross 05:27
That was the Epiphany, I love it. And it’s true, it’s, you know, our work has followed a similar pattern in that, working with the clients. And I would love to hear the kinds of clients you work with, because I’ve worked with tech clients, mostly, but also solopreneurs, consultants, coaches. And it was only in my later years of my marketing career did I realize that what I was doing as a marketer was trying to be empathetic, trying to see things from the customers or the clients point of view, and being able to connect with them where they were, and you look back and you go, I don’t know that I called it that as a marketer, when I was building campaigns, or writing, copy or doing all the things, but that really is the superpower of marketing. And I have worked with and maybe you have two very senior marketing executives who almost have a disdain for their customers. And I think to myself, you’re never going to be effective at reaching them, if you don’t respect them. So what kinds of clients do you work with? And have you seen that that play out as well?
Tim Leon 06:35
Absolutely. And you know, it’s really across, I work in the b2b sector, quite a bit Heil industrial clients. I also work in higher ed, which, to me has seen a transformation in terms of higher ed all of a sudden, focused on being close to the customer, understanding the mindset of today’s students, because it’s changed, right? I mean, what students today, they’re looking to stay closer to home, which is a new phenomenon. When they’re looking on campus, they want to understand what kind of mental health resources you can offer. There are things that are happening today in higher ed, that totally were probably precipitated by the pandemic, but they changed the behaviors. And that’s the thing I would say, as marketers, we’re all trying to figure out which of these behavior shifts that’s happened over the last two or three years, I get a stick, you know, we keep thinking that a consumer is going to come back to the way they used to purchase products, I tend to believe across all industries, changes have occurred, that are the new norm and the new reality.
Maria Ross 07:45
Absolutely, absolutely. So let’s talk about empathy and marketing. Because I, you know, I work on that aspect. I talk about that. Other marketers I’ve had on the show, talk about it. In your definition. What does empathetic marketing mean? What does it look like? And how do you define it as a concept?
Tim Leon 08:07
I think, traditionally, we’ve all we’ve all said to ourselves, as long as we put ourselves in the customers shoes, we could be effective at marketing. That’s not, to me, the total story, we have to put ourselves in the minds of the customer, which is a lot deeper, and a lot more, you have to do a little more soul searching to get there. So for me, we’ve always done voice of the customer research Brady campaign we’ve done but the types of questions I’m asking now are much more probing, I want to know, not just what the customer thinks about our industry or category or product, I want to understand what the customer challenges are, personally, professionally. That to me is what change is we have to understand the plight of the customer on a completely deeper level, to really deliver empathy. And to me, there’s no empathy. There’s a million million definitions. The one I like is from a guy named Alfred Adler. He was an Austrian psychiatrist, but he said, empathy is seeing with the eyes of another, listening with the ears of another and feeling with the heart of another. And that to me, is, you know, how do I get there? How do I understand customers at that level, that when I can do it, I can see we’re connecting on a deeper level because I see engagement, right social media, I see people commenting on some of the posts we do I know that we’re hitting a nerve. When I start to see that dialogue, customers aren’t as passive. They’re actually commenting on our posts and what I see what their cabinet got to me. I know we’ve struck that nerve. So that’s it. Be is what bringing empathy, marketing and how it resonates. You know, I want the campaign to be successful, successful. But more importantly, I want customers to be excited about what we’re talking about and engaged with it just as important. I want employees to be excited that say, now we’re talking about something meaningful in our lesson, that to be, again is true empathy when your employees can get behind what you’re doing, right,
Maria Ross 10:31
right. Well, you know, as I’ve always said, culture and brand are two sides of the same coin, and it’s got a, it’s got to live internally and start from the inside out in order to be genuine on the outside. So now, your agency coined the phrase return on empathy, which I love it because I’m all about proving to the skeptics the ROI of empathy, and there have been so many reports out there. One recently that I started citing in my talks, is that nine out of 10, customers state that empathy is the most important factor in customer loyalty. So talk to us about what you define as return on empathy. What does that mean for marketers? And why should they embrace it? And then let’s get into a few of the highlights of the report on empathy that you have available for folks on your website?
Tim Leon 11:20
Sure. So let’s start with a couple of facts that I think build the case for what return on empathy is about 2020. PepsiCo did a study with I think it was Ipsos that Yep. Okay, a couple of things that that was with us consumers, but similar to what you just said, 94% of the respondents said, empathy is necessary for society to thrive. I mean, to me, 94% of the people believed empathy KISSmetrics there for society, they went on to say the half of them said, companies that portray the ads that promote wellbeing, comfort, our companies that we will do business with and take about 2020 well being and comfort, that’s what people needed, they didn’t need to hard sell, they wanted to feel really good about the brands they were working with. And so, to me, I started thinking to myself empathy. You know, empathy is bigger than just, like, feel good, or be companies are experiencing greater customer loyalty. And the final statistic, Maria, that really resonated for me, that was a 2020 Morning consult study that stated, I think it was 85% of respondents said, the companies that display authentic empathy, are companies I’m more apt to buy from, and they are the companies I will stay loyal to, no matter what, I take that and translate it into return on Empathy means if you’re delivering empathy, authentically, and honestly, you’re building customer loyalty protected market share.
Maria Ross 13:15
Yeah, and I think that’s where it comes into play, because that can’t all be marketing’s job, right? That has to be how the company behaves as a whole, because that’s what people are looking for. And, you know, coming from marketing on both the client and agency side, we can do a lot in marketing, we can’t be miracle workers. We can’t wave away bad behavior from our companies. And so marketing and HR, marketing and culture need to be in lockstep to be ensuring that empathy lives from the inside out. So what are our policies? What are our customer service processes? What is our buying process? Like? How do we resolve customer complaints? How do we address negative feedback in the public domain, but all of these things go beyond marketing’s role. And that’s why, you know, again, you can’t just use marketing to erase bad behavior. It’s got to be a system wide, holistic view of how the company operates inside and out.
Tim Leon 14:18
Well, and you bring up a great point, consumers are much more highly sensitive to how companies treat employees, there’s tons of research to say, companies that don’t treat their employees well will suffer in the marketplace because consumers won’t put up with it. They’re highly sensitive to that. So I think you’re right and culture, and how you’re treating employees and what you do about kind of that front end of the business is probably the more important today than well,
Maria Ross 14:48
and it’s more important to Gen Z in terms of being consumers and buyers because at the beginning of the pandemic, many studies were done around brands that were not treating their employees or their communities Well, during the beginning months of the pandemic, and several studies were done by an organization called do something.org. And they found that, you know, we’re talking about 16 and 17 year olds, who were saying, I’m not going to buy from that store because of the way that they treated their employees. So the transparency now is there, and consumers, shoppers buyers, in, you know, younger generations. But you know, we have to remember Millennials are in their 40s. Now, so these are business buyers, these are buyers of cars and houses, they’re looking at the holistic behavior of companies. So let’s get back to marketing, specifically, when, when you did the report, what were those? Were those really the findings? Or was the report also looking for what some companies were doing where they were getting a good return on empathy, so to speak?
Tim Leon 15:54
I’d say yes, we looked at companies, one that comes to mind for me is Rei, who for the last few years, as you well know, closes their business on Black Friday, and the campaign is all about getting out getting away from consumers opt
Maria Ross 16:11
outside.
Tim Leon 16:11
If you look at all the receipts or all of the marketing articles, it was it’s it was brilliant, because it aligns with the values of that brand. But it was also brilliant, because it really, really made a strong statement on what they care about for their employees. And that campaigns being repeated again this year. I’m no economist, but my guess is, they do not suffer because they’re closed on Black Friday.
Maria Ross 16:39
No, actually, I wrote a whole section in the book about that case study, I spoke with their chief customer officer. And they’ve been doing this since I think 2015, I can’t remember how long they’ve been doing it. It came about because of an employee meeting, not a boardroom decision on how to look better in the marketplace. And they, they have reaped nothing but benefits from this campaign and this philosophy. And what was interesting about what the chief customer officer had to say was, it wasn’t actually it sounded crazy. But it wasn’t actually a hard sell when they looked at it against their corporate mission. And they thought and this is what our customers are expecting from us, we’re Co Op, our customers, you know, are part of our company. And if this is truly our mission to help people develop a love of the outdoors, we need to get them outside. So the it has reaped benefits in terms of press, it has reaped benefits in terms of paying members going up, revenue, all the things. So I want to shift gears for a second and talk about, you know, you’ve been talking a lot about since the pandemic but this has actually been a trend that was happening before then because of what I was saying about the buying behaviors of some of the younger generations. So right now, this is a very top of mind topic for marketers of yes, we want to figure out how to inject more empathy into our marketing. And we’re going to talk about some concrete strategies and ideas that you have to offer in a minute. But do you think this is just a fad? Or do you truly believe this is a transformative moment in how we market and sell,
Tim Leon 18:14
I would say, the pandemic precipitated it. But this is a transformative moment. I can pick other societal issues, climate change, sustainability, the economic climate today, racial equity, you can look what’s changed as consumers being highly sensitive to how brands are reacting to what’s going on in the world. That’s transformative moment. Consumers are highly sensitive, and brands that can align like REI, their mission to taking, taking a stand, support it putting their money where their mouth is, I think are going to succeed. Those that don’t will get called out.
Maria Ross 19:02
Right, exactly, I 100% agree. So let’s hear some concrete strategies and ideas on how marketers can effectively use empathy in their marketing and branding efforts. I always share a few I have I have a course available called brandstory breakthrough that talks about how you can use some different techniques to understand and align with your customers. But what are some concrete strategies and ideas that you’ve seen and you talk about with your clients?
Tim Leon 19:32
Sure. The number one strategy we always talk about because it’s something we’ve done is helping organizations find their why. Obviously, Simon Sinek made that very, very popular years ago was start with why but understanding your purpose and mission as an organization. Because to me, that’s again, people don’t buy what you do they buy why you do it. That to me shows empathy. If you can’t express your mission in a way that consumers can feel part of it and feel like they can support really what you’re all about. So finding your why. And that’s something I mean, read the book, watch the video, but I think finding your why to be a step toward truly delivering empathy.
Maria Ross 20:22
Absolutely. And I’m gonna put a link in the show notes to one or two episodes that we’ve done around purpose driven organizations and how they succeed in the market. So thank you for bringing that up.
Tim Leon 20:32
Yeah, please do. The second one is, and this is building community around your back brand. Think about Harley Davidson, Harley Davidson, Davidson owner group. These are passionate fans. They have their own, you know, social media page, think about customer loyalty programs, but finding the people that love your brand, and giving them a channel, a venue, a place to talk about it. Those are the people that are going to write the reviews. But I think, as you know, consumers want to hear from people that understand your brand that are on the same side of the fence as their consumers that love your brand. And finding that community and building it, I think is something every company needs to do in a lot of companies are don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think that can be, that’s not an option. For people. We always say number three is EPA emphasizing the human side of your business. We’re seeing a lot more creative campaigns, we do a lot of video content, customer testimonials that never been probably resonated more than they resonate today. But also employee testimonials. I think of a campaign you’re probably familiar with lush, lush National Art, I’m sorry, lush, natural beauty products that Alex made video series, or it’s their employees showing how these beauty products are made. All natural ingredients, really rarely. But when you watch the spots, what you really come out of is look at how passionate these people are about making this product for me. So I think emphasizing the human side of your business. That could be also getting some your C level people out in front customers PR events, but people want to do business with people they like so I don’t think that can be underestimated. anymore. You talked about something earlier, this isn’t just marketing, but focusing on the entire customer journey, your customer experience, every touchpoint evaluating it for Am I making it more convenient? Am I making it more easy? You mentioned customer service, inbound marketing, all of those things, your processes? What are you doing to make the experience even better, and to me, that’s empathy. That’s really understanding what your customer wants. Number five, the person map people, personalized marketing, we see it, everybody’s got a CRM system, what I would say is not everybody’s probably using it to the potential that it has to really deliver one on one messages that resonate. And I’m not talking about the emails that say, Hey, Tim, I have an opportunity for you. Right, I’m talking about something that can get to a specific need of an audience. On a one on one basis. Yeah, it’s very labor intensive. But that to me, again, is what true empathy is all about in the marketing space.
Maria Ross 23:43
Absolutely. You know, I’ve talked to my clients in the past about just getting out there and talking to their customers and their clients, and like you said, not about their experience only with your product or service. But what are the challenges? What are their goals? What are their fears? What are their values, and understanding where what you offer can augment that can fit into that. And it’s not about finding out what they believe so you can manipulate them, it’s about finding out if this is truly a good product market fit, offering market fit. And then you can echo their words back in your marketing and sales. I talked, I mentioned I work with a lot of tech clients. And I’m sure you’ve faced this as well, where they get so caught up in the jargon and also what their competitors are saying. And yet when you go talk to their customer, how do you describe the product? How do you describe the value you’re getting out of the product, use that wording and be able to be the voice inside their head when other prospects see that? Because if you talk how they are talking to themselves, you have a much better chance of connecting and engaging with them. than if you try to force terminology and jargon down their throats, because that’s what the analysts want to see, or that’s what the press wants to see. It doesn’t matter if you actually want to make sales
Tim Leon 25:11
couldn’t agree more, or you could not. That, to me is that authenticity. You’re looking in there, the bachelor, right? The industry expects you, right? And that really, man that can really resonate and attack at b2b sectors where, oh,
Maria Ross 25:32
well, I mean, and that’s where, you know, that was where my first frustration to ultimately build my own consulting practice came from as being in tech marketing. For a long time, I was so tired of the robotic way we were talking to customers. And it didn’t, it doesn’t matter if it’s b2b or b2c, you’re still selling to humans at the end of the day. And so what is going to resonate for them we buy based on logic and emotion. And it doesn’t matter if you’re a cynical, it developer, there’s still an emotion, there’s still an impact that you want to have. And how can a company tap into that story? I love what you said about being more human in your marketing, because I think, you know, we look at, we look at these amazing, small businesses, for example, that advertise on Instagram or on Facebook. The reason they’re successful is because they’re just people telling their story, and sharing their passion. And that’s why they’re selling millions of skews is because that’s what people want to see. That’s what we mean by authenticity. That’s
Tim Leon 26:34
right. And people want products that are manufactured with passion. They want the people they want to visualize that these are boys that are trying to make the best product. That to me is very, very powerful. Absolutely.
Maria Ross 26:48
Well, thank you so much for this conversation today. And your insights, we’re gonna have all the links in the show notes to your website, Guile Lian marketing communications, where people can also find the return on empathy white paper and download it for themselves. Where you know, for people on the go, we’re gonna have all your links, but where’s the best place they can get in touch with you? Is it the website,
Tim Leon 27:12
website, contact us or please visit my LinkedIn page. Tim Lyon Guylian, marketing communications. I am on LinkedIn all the time. So
Maria Ross 27:26
I will I will respond. And I want to spell the website out for folks. It’s g e i l e o n. Guy, leone.com. And so again, that’s where folks can find the return on empathy report. And also find out more about you and your work. Thank you so much for your time today, Tim, it was a delight to connect with you. And we’ll catch you next time.
Tim Leon 27:49
Right, Maria? Thanks for having me. And I’m gonna look forward to that book coming out in 2020 for the empathy dilemma.
Maria Ross 27:57
Awesome. I love it. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review or share with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
