The “future of work” is not in the future – It’s already here, so let’s start calling it the new era of business and work. Especially coming out of the Pandemic, many leaders struggle with how to adapt to changing work requirements, current business challenges, and different employee needs, motivations and demands.
Today, Sophie Wade and I talk about how Millennial and Gen Z habits are shaping new social contracts at work, why we understand how hard it is for seasoned executives to adapt to this new reality, and what it takes to create a more human-centric environment. We dig into the challenges of generational differences at work, where they stem from, and how empathy is the way to bridge those distances to increase engagement, understanding, and performance. We also chat about how work has changed from linear and routine to more networked and complex – and why the leadership skills that got you where you are might need a tune-up in today’s reality. Sophie will share a few practical ways you can improve your culture.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- The last 3 years of the pandemic has expanded the mindset of learning and leading – ideas are now more likely to come from all levels of the organization than before.
- There is a difference between using technology functionally and using technology intuitively. The same goes for the evolving workplace. Younger generations are more likely to adapt to changing work environments than older generations because it is all they have known.
- AI is not replacing your job. AI cannot replace the human touch and human interactions and human relationships.
“Many leaders now are missing out on the contributions of their youngest employees who have a feeling for the power of technology that we just can’t have.”
— Sophie Wade
About Sophie Wade, Work Futurist, International Keynote Speaker, Author of Empathy Works
Sophie Wade is a work futurist, international keynote speaker, author of Empathy Works, and authority on Future-of-Work issues. She is the host of the widely popular Transforming Work podcast and over 450,000 learners have taken her four LinkedIn courses which cover empathy, Future-of-Work skills, and Gen Z. Sophie is the Founder and Workforce Innovation Specialist at Flexcel Network, a Future-of-Work consultancy. Sophie’s executive advisory work and transformative workshops help companies adapt and update their work environments and attract, engage, and retain their multigenerational and distributed talent. She helps corporations maximize the benefits and minimize the disruption in their transition to talent-focused, digitalized work environments.
Connect with Sophie Wade:
Website: https://www.sophiewade.com/
Her Book: Empathy Works: The Key to Competitive Advantage in the New Era of Work
Podcast: Transforming Work: https://www.sophiewade.com/podcasts/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ASophieWade
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophie-wade-380b8/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sophie.wade.507
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asophiewade/
References Mentioned:
The Empathy Edge Podcast, Lisen Stromberg, What Modern Leaders and Cultures Need to Succeed in the 21st Century
The Empathy Edge Podcast, Edwin Rutsch: How “Empathy Circles” Can Change the World
Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Twitter: @redslice
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
The future of work is not in the future. It’s already here. So let’s start calling it the new era of business and work. But especially coming out of the pandemic. So many leaders struggle with how to adapt to change in work requirements, current business challenges and different employee needs, motivations and demands. Sophie Wade is a work futurist, international keynote speaker, authority on future of work issues and author of empathy works the key to competitive advantage in a new era of work. She’s the host of the wildly popular transforming work podcast, and over 450,000 learners have taken her for LinkedIn courses, which cover empathy, future of work skills, and Gen Z. Sophie is the founder and Workforce Innovation specialist at flex cell network, a future of work consultancy, Sophie’s Executive Advisory work and transformative workshops, help companies adapt and update their work environments and attract engage and retain their multigenerational and distributed talent. She helps corporations maximize the benefits and minimize the disruption in their transition to talent focused, digitalized work environments. Today, we talk about how millennial and Gen Z habits are shaping new social contracts at work. Why we understand how hard it is for seasoned executives to adapt to this new reality, and what it takes to create a more human centric environment. We dig into the challenges of generational differences at work, where they stem from, and how empathy is the way to bridge those distances to increase engagement, understanding and performance. We also chat about how work has changed from linear and routine to more networked and complex and why the leadership skills that got you where you are, might need a tune up in today’s reality, Sophie will share a few practical ways that you can improve your leadership and culture. So you don’t want to miss this one. Stay tuned.
Maria Ross 03:49
Hello, Sophie and welcome to the empathy edge podcast to talk about the future of work and how to create a thriving workplace culture. That is a popular topic here on our podcast.
Sophie Wade 04:01
Wonderful to be here. Mary Maria, thank you so much for having me.
Maria Ross 04:05
And before we get started, I just want to hear a little bit about your story and what brought brought you to this work of you know, a future of work consultancy. Just briefly tell us how you got here.
Sophie Wade 04:17
Well, I have to go way back unfortunately, I did science at the end of high school didn’t want to do any more science in college. So I started Chinese, and then Chinese got me actually going to move to Hong Kong. And after Hong Kong, I lived I live in France. I lived in Germany, I’ve lived in Italy for a bit and in the States. So I’ve lived in lots of different lives and worked in many different countries. And as a result, I really, in order to be successful, I really had to lean in I had to try to simulate try and get inside people’s heads trying to understand what was going on. And that really that is about empathizing and so without even realizing it. As I was writing this book, and then sort of looking back I was like, Oh yeah, that really makes sense. offense. So it really was being in lots of different other environments, cultures, that I had to really try and adjust. And so I also didn’t have any preconceptions about what work should be like, because living in Germany, it’s very different work culture, nobody works at the weekend, apart from tech folks, I was working in a very early tech startup there. So we did have people working over the weekend. But mostly, you know, people don’t. And so when I came to the States, and we’re looking at all of this, and how much workplace was changing, I didn’t have any kind of like, what work is always like this, because it isn’t. And so that really, I think, really gave me a much more much, if so very open mind to what it was like and what it could be like, because I know that it’s different everywhere. And therefore that sort of gave me a much easier foundation for looking at much more empathetic sort of way of looking at kind of like what could be
Maria Ross 06:02
absolutely well, and I think I think so many of us empathy activists have come to this from this realization later in our careers, where we realize actually what we’d been doing to be successful all along, was actually empathy. And, for me, I mean, I can speak for me, it’s that we get that curiosity that trying to get to know other people that were in different functions or in different areas of the business, and trying to create good relationships with them. And then people wondering, Well, how did you get that person to do that project? We can never get him to do anything, you know? And it’s like, well, I just got to know him, you know? So it was It wasn’t until I did a StrengthsFinder that I came to realize, oh, that’s actually called empathy. Because I would never describe myself as an I had a person do I had
Sophie Wade 06:46
Well, the thing is, yes. I got into the future work. And I didn’t, it wasn’t kind of I guess, empathy is the thing. But I had three sort of pillars that clients kept asking to me speak about and, and work on with them. One was the changing styles of leadership, which I called leading from within or, you know, it was more oversight and more coaching, those type of things. The second was inter generational challenges or communications or misinterpretations. And the third was the decentralized workforce and people working sort of remotely, which has been, you know, telecommuting, which has been going on for years and years. Absolutely. And the key one really was about so many people wasn’t even Gen Z, it was lamentations, loud and clear about millennials, those darn millennials, blah, blah, blah. And so many people complaining that I was like, Okay, fine, I sat down, and I looked at all a lot tons and tons of research. And I was like, hang on a second. They’re very, very similar to you know, anybody else at that age, however, where we are, where careers are, how technology has changed things for them, is very different, and how much technology that they’ve grown up with all the rest of it. So it was really putting myself in their shoes. And then I was like, Well, okay, that’s that’s empathy. Okay, so let me let me just try and communicate that if you’re going to try and understand these people, and stop complaining about them, or completely differently, just much more understanding, right, just put yourself in your shoes first. And so empathy became the solution, or the way of explaining it. And then I realized, of course, that for remote working and for changing styles of leadership, when it’s much less about, it’s much less about ego, and much more about empathy, which is a chapter in my first book, that that’s where I was like, oh, empathy is the solution. And then after that, and then for a while, it was kind of like the secret sauce that I never talked about. But in that, like in a presentation, it would finally come out to the end, right? Right. Later on, it became some clients are comfortable for me to lead with it. And other times, it sort of still comes out as a solution, just depending on the audience.
Maria Ross 09:00
I love that. And, you know, I’ve had on on the show before a woman named Lisa and Stromberg, who did an episode A while back on on 21st century leadership. And her organization is a cultural consultancy. She also teaches a leadership class at Stanford, and I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. But she, they have they have a model at her company where empathy is one of the pillars of being a 21st century successful leader. And, you know, yeah, we weren’t talking about those kinds of things. I’m Gen X, you know, we didn’t talk about those kinds of things back then. And oh, no, and even just in the course of the work that I’m doing, you know, I started writing my book in 2017 2016. And it was like, Okay, well, I can’t say empathic, because people are going to think that’s too woowoo for the business world. I even chose like, empathetic, even though I could have used empathic or, you know, so that the way we’ve had to sort of make it palatable for people to embrace that this is not weakness. This is not about acquiescing to every case. Easy demand, which I talk a lot about in terms of Gen Z, and but I’m really getting people to, like, pull up a chair and listen. And it sounds like you’ve done that with your clients to like, whatever entry point you need to get in there. Eventually, they’re gonna hear about it. Yeah,
Sophie Wade 10:16
Right. And that really is empathy really, because, you know, if I’m going to try and communicate to somebody, I need to understand where they’re coming from. And I recognize that the empathy word is so loaded. And just, it’s not going to be helpful. There’s no point in saying it, because it’s going to become a barrier rather than a solution. So So human centric, or just, you know, it’s talk about a human understanding. And, you know, and those being the words because, you know, even different mindsets that Oh, I’m so glad you’ve written a book about being kind of nice in the office. And I think I talked about that being once as being not what it’s about.
Maria Ross 10:54
Exactly, exactly. I think those myths of empathy are so powerful of being able to bust those for people. And I’m sure when you do your presentations as well, you kind of see a collective sigh of relief from especially some senior leaders about explaining to them what empathy actually is. So, I would love to hear more about you know, given that you run a future of work, consultancy future of work is a buzzword, it’s a trending hashtag right now. But what are the actual challenges you’re hearing from leaders around dealing with the future of work? Is it is it as basic as I don’t understand what that means to? You know, how do I better prepare? What are you hearing from clients?
Sophie Wade 11:33
Well, the future of work is here, it arrived in 2020.
Maria Ross 11:37
Kind of present of work?
Sophie Wade 11:38
Yes, yes, well, I typically am talking about the new era of business and work because it feels weird to be talking about the future when it’s here. The the reality, though, is that most people are not in the future of work, whereas the environment is the future of work. And that’s where so much of the strain is, because if it was already pretty uncomfortable, prior to the pandemic, the pandemic accelerated the arrival of huge work, because it is so much so much driven by technology and the technology implementations that we have been doing for the last 2030 years, but then really accelerated to those of this sort of, you know, non incremental leap, that we haven’t really been able to, to accommodate very easily. So it is, it is very challenging. And I think the pain and the struggle that everybody is dealing with now, which is, you know, in addition to all the economic challenges, from where we are, from the pandemic, from dissipating disruptions, to all those things a lot, you know, what I do say is that most, probably close to 90% 89% of the characteristics that we were dealing with, during the pandemic, were actually the future of work. This, you know, nonlinear pivoting, changing lots of different changing behaviors, new software being implemented, changing customer behaviors, which then meant you had to change your behavior, then how are you going to the, you know, the cycles, the feedback loops, all of this, I mean, there’s a lot that’s changing, and has been changing the nature of work being not so linear, much more networked, non routine, non routine work has been growing, you know, very strongly in the last 30 years, and the Harvard Business Review their last the last issue, the 20, November, December 2021. Issue, so the project economy has arrived, you know, and that has been building for for 20 years or so, it would actually explain that in Germany, between 2009 2019, the percentage of GDP that was a sort of attributable to projects became got to 41% in 2019. And what that means it’s non routine work. And it’s often are mostly working together closely in teams. And that’s where que empathy is when we’re working very closely together in unpredictable conditions at a faster pace, because we’re so interconnected by their technology, that’s when we need to be able to understand each other better. And that’s sort of how I approach it. But looking at how much change there has been, and this is what I saw, not obviously, not the pandemic, but the two in 2014, when I saw what this future work thing was called, because I was in workplace flexibility and had been since 2011. And then this this umbrella term, which encompass so much more, all driven by it by technology, or mostly, I mean, the beats societal changes as well. That was when I sort of was like, Whoa, that’s going to be tough. Yeah. And people have known people, some people have have been there that got there there, you know, have put a lot more flexibility into the system and use and using that technology and thinking about things in a very different way. But but we have so many legacy ways of thinking structure frameworks, that it’s very hard and what the pandemic was able to do was like, shake things up a lot. and be thinking differently and be pivoting more and be, you know, assigning roles in different ways and sort of helping us catalog and record how we worked in the workflow and sort of changing that a bit. But there has been this tendency, obviously, you know, as we emerge from the pandemic, to try and go back to what felt safe and comfortable and slower, but but that’s not where we are.
Maria Ross 15:22
Exactly, exactly. And more of that emphasis on humanity at work. I mean, I think that’s really, that’s really the biggest acceleration I’ve seen, is the fact that we are, we have now because we were in each other’s homes with Zoom, right? We were we saw the kids and the pets and the juggling the this and that. We were able to develop empathy by seeing our colleagues and even our teams as human beings as whole human beings.
Sophie Wade 15:49
Exactly.
Maria Ross 15:50
And I think there’s there’s a level of patience and understanding. I mean, not that we’re still not in a hustle culture. But there’s there’s a level especially in corporate that I’ve seen of patients and understanding that I did not see a few years ago, do you? Would you say that’s true?
Sophie Wade 16:06
So I would have said, Yes, but this new research, which shows that we are less, the title of the article that I read was about the research was like is the pandemic has turned us into jerks? Well, what he was basically saying is that out at the very beginning of the pandemic, apparently, and I read this in great detail, because I was not happy about Trinity College tree and monkey different. Empathy, it’s like that, I think. And it,
Maria Ross 16:38
what was the point of the article, just just that we are,
Sophie Wade 16:41
We have come out of this less effectively less empathetic towards each other. Now, I think I haven’t, I do want to go and dig into the actual layers of the data. Because I think there are so many other elements to this, this political divisiveness that there’s leaders that we have, you know, around the world, that are not helping any economic situations, which are not helping. So I don’t, I don’t know whether all of that really sets but but a lot of the, the, the data that they were gathering about how people feel about each other, how much more supportive they are now that it does, it was better with with younger generations, um, in terms of supporting each other. But it hasn’t come out to be now that we’re out of this, that we’re actually in a better place. And I do, you know, I mean, we do see this generally now sort of it we have emerged that there is this sort of seems to be a battle in the workplace, about this sort of pool, which often unfortunately, seems to be between generations. You know, we need to be working, go back to working like this, or no, we should be working more, you know, flexibility operationally. And that does tend to be coming from the younger generations, even though it’s actually I see it but mean much more of a need in this new type of work environment. But it’s, it’s, it’s causing a lot of strain.
Maria Ross 18:06
So let’s talk a little bit about the generations, because that’s always a hot button. And, you know, a lot of the research I did for my book was about the attitudes of millennials and Gen Z, and how they are changing the conversation of what work means. workplace culture. You know, quite frankly, I’m, I’m cheering them on, because they’re brave enough to ask for the things that we were too scared to ask for, like respect at work and flexibility. And the, you know, ability to bring my real self to work. And then you know, and in doing so, to provide immense innovation and value and loyalty as a result. So what are you seeing in your work around the generational conflict?
Sophie Wade 18:48
So I look at this as being something which is natural to any of us, we have more of a second world war, there’s been all this research into psychology, understanding how our brains work, you know, we don’t want to let that kind of stuff happen again. And so that information has been coming through, it wasn’t there were both Gen X’s. It wasn’t there when we were growing up. And we weren’t gonna grow up in England. And, you know, therapy still isn’t, you know, as acceptable. As it is here in the US. We’re in which I applaud here. And so the information the understand that that we have now, which as parents, boomers and X’ers as parents are bringing up our children in a different way, you know, I mean, I do I did find out that in the 1950s, not with one up but there was still 1960s, that the British whatever the British Pediatric Association has called the way that they they explained it. If you hug your children, you tell them you love them, it will make them weak. Now, that doesn’t help anybody. So, so it’s it’s, it’s not that we’re different. It’s that we have as parents, I believe.
Maria Ross 20:06
Yeah
Sophie Wade 20:07
We have learned we were bringing up these kids, they’re the ones, we’re still the people who are in the workforce who are complaining about those kids. But we’re the ones who raise them completely. And so the information understanding, and then what I see happen is that of course, they pick up the tools that we taught them to advocate, we’ve taught them to be logical, we turn to the look at the data. And we’ve taught them to do what makes sense. And then they come into the workforce, and we say, don’t use those tools don’t use, you know, those efficiency things don’t be, you know, trying to use the, you know, whatever, Product Manager don’t
Maria Ross 20:40
question everything, which you tell Don’t, don’t do not growing up, ya
Sophie Wade 20:44
know? So this is, this is real challenge of these months, just we’ve created, you know, what are you gonna do with it? So I think we all need to, it’s not that they’re any different. We are the ones we were the ones who created this technology that is sophisticated, and advanced and mobile, and can be used in so many different amazing ways. And, and we actually have also trained the people who are going to be using them, and then we complain about what it does
Maria Ross 21:09
well, and also there, we can’t underestimate this idea of being digitally native versus adopting technology. I mean, yes, again, Gen X, we knew life before a cell phone, we knew life before an iPod we knew, before email, and all of those things. And so even though we’ve learned to use those in our everyday life, it’s still different for us than it was for someone who grew up as a digital native. And that that is sort of sideswiped by so many seasoned executives that you know, why I use that technology too. And I’m on social media too.
Sophie Wade 21:46
How do you use Sideswipe?
Maria Ross 21:50
But you know, it’s but it’s very meaningful, because it’s a generation generations of people who grew up with instant access to information, open platforms to express their opinion, wherever they want, the ability to find out information to vet to fact find to, you know, to what’s the word I’m looking forward to uncover if something someone says is truthful or not, especially a lead, right. And so this is just given for them. And so you know, that that is going to lead to a different way that they approach information gathering a different way that they approach learning a different way that they approach interpersonal relationships.
Sophie Wade 22:32
Absolutely. And, you know, in the past, when we came into the workforce, information was power, right up at the tippy top of the triangle had all the information had all the power, of course. So that is, for me, what I see is what has, you know, what has flattened the hierarchy is, everybody has, has, well, you know, very similar amounts of information. And so you don’t see him all powerful as my, you know, you know, five layers up boss, because I have a lot of the same information. And I also may be much more up to date with it, because I’m actually checking my phone more. And as I was in, interviewed a young guy, veteran, the son of one of my friends for for the, for my book, and he said, You know, it’s actually very hard. He’s probably three, four years into the workforce. And he said, um, I find it, I will say that I find it sometimes hard to respect my boss, who is paid 10 times what I am, and he has no clue how to use the software that I’m using in order to do my job, and, and do the work that I do. So. And then we also look at the state of the world, the planet, you know, all those type of things. And there’s, you know, there’s a credibility gap. And so there are lots of things that are also complicating, I think, the relationship but the other thing about technology just wanted to say is that the big difference, for me is exactly what you’re saying, I pick up my phone, and it’s functional. Like, if somebody tells you something more about it, my great Absolutely, and I want to do that thing that overlays, I can do this better. And I will learn that and just about it, because I don’t have any one other time. But if you have if your your sort of modus operandi is to just play with it, and just and have this intuitive, like, Oh, I wonder what the customers gonna do. And you’ve got time to do that, then you’re going to think about technology and the possibilities, and oh, I can’t find this. But maybe there’s something out there that can do that. And I just have a much more expensive way of thinking about what technology could do in this or that situation. And that’s what I think many leaders now are missing out on in not getting the contributions of their youngest employees who have a have a just a feeling for the power of technology that that we just can’t have.
Maria Ross 24:52
Well, and I want to bring you back to something you said earlier around the fact that you know, leadership power used to come from information who had the information Right. And since it doesn’t come from that anymore, that’s why leaders are floundering. Because that was what they were brought up. That’s what got them successful was how do I hoard the most information? And so I’ve always talked about empathy as a two way street, like being empathetic to those leaders that are like, yeah, for 3040 years, I played this game, and now you’re telling me the game is completely different. And so now they’re struggling, because they didn’t shore up those other skills that actually make a great leader. It’s not just command and control. It’s not just I have all the information and you don’t, I’m always right, and you’re not. There’s other skills that need to come into play, that enable people to be great leaders and people to follow them and engage with them and stay loyal to them. And is that what you’re finding is that they’re struggling with those basic skills? Because they were thinking the skills they had were leadership skills, but they really weren’t?
Sophie Wade 25:54
Well, they were at the time rate. I mean, that was the world that was the structure, I don’t tend to look back, because I don’t think it’s I don’t find it productive when I’m, you know, working with people. But you know, when there are many leaders who have moved on who or or have moved to seen it differently different way. Yeah, and be more embracing of it, particularly if this will say, well, whoa, I don’t understand what’s going on. Let me ask people, and that was one of the things I think that asked people at any level in my company, and that’s what I think the pandemic helped us sort of adjust and find that the world lots of ideas coming from different places in the organization, because we were just scrambling, but that scrambling, you know, the leaders got got people through it. And that’s why I sort of say, look to the look to the learnings that you that can come from the past two and a half, you know, two and a half years, because you were still leading, you were still you know, you got your business through it, you rallied, but he wasn’t it wasn’t being done, do you weren’t doing to the same way, you were much more flexible. You were adapting to what was going on? You’re like, Okay, who has an idea? How can we deploy those skills? What else do we need to do? What can we learn? How can we look at the supply chain differently? So I think that kind of that sort of expanded mindset and sort of expanded way of leading it and, you know, really sort of morphing, how leadership can be thought of and adapted, and adapted for I think, is, is, you know, so I’m trying to sort of push people to to keep going in that direction, rather than go back to a much more static, you know, way of being now. In fact, there was great, there was some really interesting research, which was SAP and I think Oxford Economics from, which was actually done in 2016. But it was looking towards it, it was called leaders, leaders, 2020, something like that. And in 2016, they looked at who the digital winners were, what they described as digital winners, as companies. And they were already seeing that companies would really embrace this digital age that was coming or more digital, had already decentralized a lot of the decision making, because they could see that, you know, waiting for all the decisions to have to roll up to the top the decision to be made, and then it go back, it was just too slow. So it’s it, it has been coming and I think there are different businesses have been able to, to stay in in a much more hierarchical static format, because of the nature of their business or, you know, there are different things that that have caused businesses to be able to adapt or need to adapt earlier. But I do yes, I have huge empathy for for the leaders who’ve been doing things in a certain way for a very long time. And and that was sort of how how you know leaders were right and I do remember going to a it was a was actually from from one of the professors at INSEAD where I went but she was she was giving it her men many are meaner, a bit bearer. And she gave a talk about the changing the changing characteristics of leadership saying was going to be sort of more female. This was 2014. I was like, rubbish. Yeah, nice, will be great. And it was about you know, how many leaves there are women and women who leaders who don’t want to be women leaders, because they have to act like men. And that’s what was the premise was that, you know, leadership is gonna change. And of course, whether it’s like women or not, but it is leadership has changed. Yes, so much. Since 2014.
Maria Ross 29:30
Well, you have leaders talking about emotional intelligence, vulnerability, transparency, you know, these were not things they used to talk about before.
Sophie Wade 29:39
Yeah, yeah.
Maria Ross 29:40
So. So, you know, you talk a lot about creating a human centric environment in this new era of work. Can you make that really practical for us? What are some simple and practical changes that leaders can make to create a more human centric environment and improve the culture so that their, their teams are more engaged especially the younger generations, yes.
Sophie Wade 30:02
So I do get I do, there’s a lot of stuff that I do in terms of helping people bridge distances and geographic sort of dispersion of teams. And because that is one thing to do with the culture, but it’s also very much about empathy. Because if you’re trying to connect with somebody where ever they are, they can be across the table from you, as well. But it’s really, it’s, it’s just putting yourself in their shoes, it really is getting practical about listening to someone really trying to understand what they’re saying. And there’s some very interesting examples of words. Now, I’m a Brit. So I’ve already had to go through some of that coming to the states, we are separated by a common language, and I changed some of the ways that I, you know, speak in order to be more ease
Maria Ross 30:52
My husband has as well, it’s fine.
Sophie Wade 30:53
Right? But there was one thing that so when there’s a lot of traffic, your husband may say it to, you say it’s chock a block, right? It’s chock a block full of cars. Now, nobody told me for about 10 years of being here, that they didn’t understand this. I say what I use the phrase too many times, but I
Maria Ross 31:14
just thought you were being charming.
Sophie Wade 31:16
Weird English, because now
Maria Ross 31:19
My husband always says that, oh, he’s foreign.
Sophie Wade 31:23
Nobody told me. I don’t mind. Nobody told me but it didn’t occur to me that this just
Maria Ross 31:29
Your message was getting lost when you were communicating this? Yeah.
Sophie Wade 31:32
So I really think about words. And that really can also be a generational divide in terms of, let’s say, hard work. Sounds very obvious, hard work to you and me, may mean long, hard hours, you know, at the office burning the midnight oil coming back, exhausted at 11 o’clock, to a much younger person, let’s just say a new, you know, labor market entrant, they may be working 40 hours or fewer. But working using amazing technology tools, you know, project management, whatever it would it whatever that it is that they’re doing, and producing the same results. But working very hard, very effectively. Now, the problem obviously becomes how if I in that person’s boss, and I’m evaluating them based on one of my criteria is of how hard they worked, is how long they were at the office or
Maria Ross 32:26
I can’t wait till that. Oculus,
Sophie Wade 32:30
But that’s so I think really carefully about words. And so I do, it’s not just about listening, but it’s also about what words mean, and thinking. And instead of saying, you know, there’s a restating reconfirming, just to make sure that you’re understood, having realized that I’m not necessarily being understood. And I use words so carefully. And I’ve had people who are really thoughtful, who are really careful about trying to understand me, and I will find that they have taken out their own interpretation, from what I’ve said, about the future of work about, you know gen Z, whatever it might be. So try that. So what I really sort of, you know, lean into and try and one of the key things is really making an effort more of an effort to to understand the other person, not make judgments not make assumptions about what you think they mean, right? And then doing the same, you know, back and like, helping them understand lots of, you know, did you understand me, but really helping them understand maybe sort of rephrasing it a second time slightly differently, so that they can be more authentic. And of course, that can be a little bit more work to begin with. But I think then, you know, as you start connecting, you start going, Okay, I understand what she’s talking about.
Maria Ross 33:44
Yeah, what you’re saying is reminding me of that, you know, the technique I was talking about, which is to ask and reflect back, and just make sure you’re on the same page. And you may be familiar with Edwin Ruch who conducts empathy circle training for people all over the world. Culture of empathy, I will put a link to his episode as well. But, you know, he’s trained all these people in the facilitation of empathy circles. And when I went through it, I, I describe it as a painfully precise workout of your active listening muscles. Because you actually can’t add color to what the person is saying you literally no matter what they’re saying, and he’s done these at the most divisive political rallies in the US over the last few years. Oh, great. It’s about listening without judgment. And no matter what you hear, you know, I even do this in some of my trainings. It’s like, so what I hear you saying, Sophie, is that the sky is purple, and trees have black leaves. And we are all floating on a trampoline. Is that what I? I get that right? Right. So
Sophie Wade 34:47
Absolutely
Maria Ross 34:49
And then you can like move forward from there. But it is that that ability to reflect back and make sure that you actually are having the same conversation that you both think you’re having,
Sophie Wade 34:59
And for me that’s at the core of all of it. Right. And I think the other piece of it is really trying to put myself in somebody else’s shoes, not as me. And those two things can really go hand in hand. Really trying to understand your perspective. You’re married to a Scott. Okay, so what does that mean? What are they, like?
Maria Ross 35:25
That’s another episode.
Sophie Wade 35:26
He’s got, he’s got to kill them, they killed, my marriage just got as well. So I’m at the we really trying to understand what is going through the other person’s head, whether their agenda D, whether they’re a Gen X, it really changes how you see the world, obviously. And, you know, obviously, you can’t get completely there. But one, as you know, the the act of doing it does so much for the other person. Yeah. And then, you know, when I’m looking at, you know, when talking about conflict resolution, or trying to get through a difficult issue, when you have those shared experiences, and you can share where you are closer, or where you do agree, then you and you’re trying so hard to understand what’s inside their head, there is so much more of that more willingness to try and bridge that last bit. And so I think, when we can try and and obviously, in these, you know, difficult and divisive times, trying to understand somebody else’s perspective, this is really not that easy.
Maria Ross 36:33
And you don’t have to agree with it, this is the thing that we talk about all the time is that you don’t have to condone it, you don’t have to agree with it, you just have to hear it. And you know, like going back to Edwin and his empathy circles at different political rallies, the goal getting them into the empathy tent was not to convert one one side of one to the other. The goal was to get them to see each other as human beings. And actually, actually, I still don’t agree with you, but I understand why you feel the way you feel. I can understand the context.
Sophie Wade 36:54
Yeah And then also maybe a few tiny pieces of overlap, we just help some kind of approach more some kind of more willingness, that is that can be helpful in the future. Mm hmm.
Maria Ross 37:19
Absolutely. What’s one more practical change that leaders can make to improve the culture?
Sophie Wade 37:27
So, I think it really goes to building relationships find, you know, creating, finding common ground and creating shared memories, shared experiences, because I do think that that really is what helps bridge gaps predict build bridge, despite differences, bridge differences. And when and that can be that can be virtual, it can be in person, there are companies that certainly survive and are very connected. Without, you know, everyone necessarily getting together in person at all, I think if you can, you know, get in together in you know, at times during the year in person, for retreats, whatever, if you’re not spending as much money on on, you know, office rental that can be there can be used for part of that. But I do think that really leaning into the human relationships and all this, all the ways that we’re working now are, a lot of them are new. And we haven’t one of the critical changes, I guess, in terms of where where we are and how we’re working in this new era of work is that is the how, and the how we need to, we need to think it through, you know, we have we sort of come up to this point. And we just, you know, we work in the factories, and we had, you know, built the buildings around the factories we worked on.
Maria Ross 38:52
And we are told exactly what to do and when to do it and how to do it.
Sophie Wade 38:55
Yeah, like the machines. But it wasn’t nobody, I think it was it was all focused on the machines, because it was so much originally, there’s so much of a fear of of not having enough food producers, that population was exploding. And so it was really focused on machines. Now we can do machines is sophisticated, and mobile, and light and very powerful. And we can work in different ways. Now that we have the tools, we deliberately created these tools, very sophisticated, powerful tools, how can we best use them? Right? So when we think about all this and sort of think about how it really, it really changed the dynamics of work and when we think about that, how we also need to be connecting more as human beings and developing those relationships, because that’s at the core of how we’re going to be the the sort of the the the top level element which is supported by the tools and the technology is how we connect as human beings were interrelated and moving from that transactional to the sort of experiential way of work
Maria Ross 39:55
And as we automate as AI automates more tasks spend more things that, that it can take care of to increase efficiencies. The competitive edge is the human relationships that the machines can’t emulate. Those experiences that. So that’s actually if you are a leader who connects with your team on a very human level, and provides empathy and is curious and is actively listening, those are things the machines can’t do. So you know, you’re not going to get replaced by a machine. You know, only if you’re only focused on the transactional and tasks. Yeah, you might lose your job.
Sophie Wade 40:36
Well, and it’s the, it’s actually, generally it’s parts of jobs that are being lost to machines, and it’s the most boring parts
Maria Ross 40:44
Exactly, the low value parts.
Sophie Wade 40:46
Yeah, low value. And so if we’re doing more interesting work, and and, you know, it does require upscaling. And that’s the sort of nature where we are now. But that is that can be much more interesting we can be doing and if you also have a boss, who is saying, Well, you know, what is it that Maria enjoys doing, because she’s really going to engage if I can align her with where her skills on where her strengths are, what she enjoys, which tend to tend to overlap. And then if there are some gaps, you know, maybe there’s somebody else I can get in, who’s a freelancer or whatever, I can be assigned somebody because they like doing that instead, you know, when we think about the how differently and we think about it from a human centric perspective, the whole game, it changes a lot. But I find it very powerful and very exciting.
Maria Ross 41:30
Yeah, it’s gonna be a much more fun workforce workplace.
Sophie Wade 41:33
So I think a lot of this a lot of challenges, a lot of strain and right filling in between now and then. But I’m very hopeful.
Maria Ross 41:41
Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing these insights with us, Sophie. All your links will be in the show notes. But where can folks on the go find out more about you and your work?
Sophie Wade 41:52
So, sophiewade.com and flexcel network.com. And also, I do do you know videos, I’m typically do a sort of short video every week, which is kind of summarizing one particular point that I’ve found in the news that I think is sort of interesting or worth noteworthy. And I have a podcast transforming work. And so there’s a lot of different ways you can apply.
Maria Ross 42:12
I love it. I love it. Well, thank you. And the book, again is called empathy works. And so please check that out the key to competitive advantage in the new era of work. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. It was great conversation.
Sophie Wade 42:25
Thank you, Marie. I really enjoyed it.
Maria Ross 42:26
And thank you everyone for listening to another great guest on the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, please remember to share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, always remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
