Burnout is one of our biggest workplace challenges. Turnover and lost productivity due to burnout cost businesses $322B globally. Voluntary turnover costs 15+% of a company’s payroll annually. Most employees will seek out workplaces that support mental health in the future, showing the importance of these benefits in employee retention.
Today, I chat with Amy J. Wilson. We talk about how burnout is the biggest obstacle blocking us from empathy, what burnout is and its symptoms, where it comes from, and how it is especially a challenge in traditional care professions but can impact any of us in any organization. We discuss the difference between compassion fatigue and empathic distress. Amy also shares the Four Rs framework for healing from and preventing burnout.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Burnout is preventing people from feeling empathy. It applies blinders that keep people from connecting with those around them.
- Modeling is more effective than telling. You can model empathic behavior even in the face of adversity.
- Curiosity is the first step in empathy. Burnout stops us from making that connection with someone else’s and their story.
“People think of burnout as a mental health condition, but it isn’t defined as a mental health condition as currently in the DSM. I think it has an origin in our own personal abilities and conditioned responses, but at the same time, it is a product of the system around us that often prioritizes profit over people.” — Amy J. Wilson
Episode References:
- The Empathy Edge:
- Amy J. Wilson: Leadership’s Larger Duty And Avoiding Empathy Deficit Disorder
- Jamie Greenwood: Why Empathy for Others Starts with Compassion for Yourself
- Articles on empathic distress:
- Rob Volpe: “Which Is It? Empathic Distress or Compassion Fatigue?”
- Adam Grant: “That Numbness You’re Feeling? There’s a Word for It“
- Amy J. Wilson: “What Makes Us Human”
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About Amy J Wilson, Founder and Guide, Healing for Work
Amy J. Wilson believes in the power within each of us to shape the future we want to have—a future with more awareness, compassion, connection, and love. They specialize in building and sustaining compassionate cultures that can hold change so that individuals and the organization can thrive. They have challenged the status quo and redesigned systems centered on empathy and equity in action at more than a dozen organizations with thousands of people within the private and public sectors. Amy is the bestselling author of Empathy for Change: How to Build a More Understanding World with language and frameworks to evolve individuals and organizations to meet the realities of today and reimagine a better way forward.
Amy founded Healing for Work, a community and program rooted in scientifically-proven ways for individuals to overcome burnout and improve workplace well-being. Through the Empathy Action Lab, they work with ambitious, purpose-driven organizations or entrepreneurs to design communities & movements with more empathy, to tell powerful stories, and to advance collective action.
Connect with Amy J. Wilson:
Empathy for Change | Healing for Work: healingforwork.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/healing-for-work
Instagram: instagram.com/healingforwork/
Learn more about Amy’s FREE Burnout Support Sessions at: healingforwork.com/join
Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy
Connect with Maria:
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Burnout is one of our biggest workplace challenges have life challenges. According to my guest today, 79% of US workers are emotionally detached or miserable at work. Two thirds of us employees are looking for more fulfilling work, and 75% of US workers reported at least one symptom of a mental health condition, turnover and lost productivity due to burnout costs businesses 322 billion globally. Voluntary turnover costs 15 to 20% of a company’s payroll each year, most 81% of employees will seek out workplaces that support mental health in the future, which shows the importance of these benefits in employee retention. Today, I chat with Amy J. Wilson, founder and guide of healing for work, a community and program rooted in scientifically proven ways for individuals to overcome burnout and improve workplace well being through the empathy Action Lab. She works with ambitious purpose driven organizations or entrepreneurs to design communities and movements with more empathy to tell powerful stories and to advance collective action. You may remember Amy from her past interview, talking about her book empathy for change, how to build a more understanding world. Today we talk about how burnout is the biggest obstacle blocking us from empathy, what burnout is, and its symptoms, where it comes from, how it is especially a challenge in traditional care professions, such as medicine or teaching, but how it can impact any of us in any organization. We discuss the difference between compassion, fatigue, versus empathic distress. And you will not want to miss out as Amy shares the four our framework for healing from and preventing burnout in your own work and life. This is such an important episode, take a listen. Welcome back friend of the show, Amy Wilson to the empathy edge podcast. Hi, how are you doing? I’m good, I’m good. I don’t know if people listening know that you and I are on a superhero team. Together, we are part of the empathy Superfriends which is this lovely little brain trust of empathy advocates and empathy ad activists who write and teach and speak about empathy. And so I get to see your smiling face at least once a month. So this month is a treat for twice. Yes, I love it. We mentioned you’ve been on the show before. But we are here to talk about burnout and sort of the next iteration of your empathy work and the next iteration of your programs. So let’s talk a little bit about first remind people really quickly of your story and how you got into empathy work. And what has led you from that empathy work into the field of burnout? Hmm.
Amy J Wilson 03:35
So I want to talk about it. Since we’re talking about burnout, I wanted to talk about like, experiences when I’ve experienced burnout in my own life, right? Because a lot of this work is like work you wish you had when you’re doing doing things through life. And so I have what I call my burnout supernovas that experienced that happened in my life. And it’s a really geeky thing. But a supernova is a really bright, super powerful explosion that happens when a star explodes. And so, but for me, that’s something when I have a really big project that expands really quickly, but it and then I burned out really quickly at the same time because of that explosion that happens. And that’s kind of happened three times in my life. And I’m on my fourth career right now. So as you know, I’m there’s a lot of things that I do but the first supernova I had was when it was after Hurricane Katrina, and I was living in a gutted out elementary school, doing rebuilding of the Gulf Coast. And I was asked to build in my early 20s, a rebuilt rebuilding project about 50 ohms and four months. Wow, which is why old with very little resources, right? And I had to like kind of pool resources within the second supernova. I’d say is that I went to work at Booz Allen Hamilton. I had done management consulting for 12 years after Hurricane Katrina, and I at Booz Allen was turning 100 years old. And so they decided, they asked me in a team of five people to come together and say, How can we build? It’s 100 years old. And we’re How can we build the next iteration of Booz Allen, for 25,000 people. So that was called building a culture of innovation. And I burned out very quickly wrote the playbook, the blueprint, the like ecosystem, we the team really worked around the clock. And then the third one, I would say, is I also focused@innovation.gov. And the better government movement is the third one. And this is I was an entrepreneur in residence in the Obama White House. And so during that time, I helped create co create a shared language around what innovation means in the public sector, but also a community of practice called the better government movement. And like a 200 active volunteers 5000 people grew that huge movement there. So it I have done a lot of very complex work, and also work around empathy at the intersection of empathy and innovation, right. So big cultural change, but also recognizing that empathy, and transformation is at the center of all that it’s an individual transformation, as well as a systems transformation. So that’s kind of like where the My career has taken me to. And where the world, my world like Island Empath, that highly sensitive person. And a, an empathy is my biggest strength. And so I bring that to everything that I do.
Maria Ross 06:50
And now that has led you into the world of burnout. So you’re doing this, you’re doing this project now healing, for healing for work, where you’re helping leaders and professionals deal with burnout in the workplace realm. But I’m sure that spills over into other areas of their lives. So how did you make that jump from empathy to burnout? Because I think you have a theory about what is our biggest blocker to empathy? Hmm,
Amy J Wilson 07:17
yeah, I call it my empathy epiphany. But I got names for all these things. I got a supernova, I got an empathy epiphany. And for me, I think I have in my research I published my book was published about three years ago, but I’ve been working on it for several years prior to that. And with that work, I, the more and more people I talked to, the more and more I realized that people are burnt out, right. And yet, especially post pandemic, there’s a mental health crisis there is there is, you know, a lot of systemic inequalities that are showing up in the world, you know, the politics, a lot of things that are happening in the world, are also making us really distressed as well. And so what I found is that we are in a perpetual state of burnout, especially in the United States. And so but then what I started thinking about what is blocking us from having empathy, I thought I’d oh my god, goodness, if we’re burnout, we are, that’s what’s blocking us from having empathy and compassion in the world. So when if you think about it, when you’re in burnout, you’re putting your blinders on your, your reach, you’re reacting instead of acting in the world, you know, just being responding, you’re really mindless to tell you the truth, right? You’re, you have tunnel vision, that so that blocks you from seeing the people around you and connecting, because you’re not even connected to yourself, let alone the people around you. Because it’s too painful to be connected to your, your inner self preservation
Maria Ross 08:47
mode. I know. Yeah. You know, this is why in the in the new book coming the empathy dilemma. The first two pillars are self awareness and self care. Because if your well is dry, you have nothing to draw on to stand study and be able to take on someone else’s point of view or someone else’s feelings or someone else’s perspective.
Amy J Wilson 09:06
Exactly. It’s about the oxygen mask on yourself. Yep, we like to say.
Maria Ross 09:12
And so So that led you into the work that you’re doing now, which is helping leaders and organizations not only deal with burnout, quote, unquote, but heal from it. And so I’d like to take a step back and talk about what exactly is burnout because I feel like it’s one of those terms where we all it’s like empathy, we all have our own definition. And a lot of people lay claim to it based on lots of varying conditions and feelings and emotions. So what is burnout and what are its symptoms?
Amy J Wilson 09:45
Right, right. So burnout is a state of emotional, mental and often physical exhaustion, that we that is brought on by prolonged and repeated stress that we experience in our lives. It’s often caused by problems that we have at work. But it can also appear in parenting and caretaking and romantic relationships and
Maria Ross 10:09
raising my hand for those of you listening as a mother, you
Amy J Wilson 10:13
know yourself. And so how that manifests in an invalid individual is that they might be physically or mentally exhausted, they might have a sense of dread about work, and, and the work that they do, they might be cynical, or angry or irritable at the end of the day. Those are the key signs of burnout. But there’s also people helping professions, doctors, nurses, you know, teachers, I notice really dwindling compassion, that’s called compassion, fatigue, and towards people that they’re caring about. So. And then also, if you’re feeling like you can’t really do your job effectively, you know, from a mental perspective, that’s, that’s something that shows up with burnout. So if you want to know where burnout is coming from, and like, if you think you’re experiencing burnout, we are on our website, we have a questionnaire of 15 different questions that you can ask yourself to determine if you think you’re burnout. So check that out on our website,
Maria Ross 11:16
and that website is the healing for
Amy J Wilson 11:18
work, healing for website.
Maria Ross 11:19
Okay, great. Yeah, everyone should check that out. I’m gonna go check that out after we finished recording. And so I think what’s, there’s a couple of things I’m hearing and what you’re saying. And one is that it’s not necessarily something you’re born with, or necessarily a propensity towards burnout, you might be a highly sensitive person or a highly empathic person, and you can get to burn out more quickly. But it’s not sort of a condition, it’s really something that can come and go and be healed from Yes,
Amy J Wilson 11:47
yes, for sure. It actually doesn’t show up. People think of it as like a mental health condition, it actually isn’t defined as a mental health condition is currently in the DSM, which is the manual for mental health conditions out there. So it is actually something that I think has an origins in both something that we all like our own personal abilities and conditioned responses that we have been learned from the world around us. But also at the same time, it is a product of the system that is around us that often prioritizes profit, you know, over the people that are around them, right? So I think it’s an in this world of burnout, it’s not not an either or in this way. It’s a yes. And what I would say as far as the origins of where this comes from, at the end of the day, right.
Maria Ross 12:42
And I think that that’s, that’s a hopeful thing to remember. Because sometimes it feels when you’re, when you’re experiencing the depths of burnout, it feels like you will never get any fuel back in your tank, it feels like you won’t ever climb back up out of that abyss. Right. And I think it’s important to know that you know, like you do with your programs and with your coaching is help people learn strategies and learn methods, to not only help them prevent burnout, but to sort of get themselves out of burnout when they’re in it. And then ultimately, when you talk about healing from burnout, do you mean that from like, a long term impact perspective of the burnout? Or are you talking about literally healing from when you’re in the depths of burnout? I
Amy J Wilson 13:27
think it’s both, right, it’s a yes. And for that, because when you’re in that, you know, state where you’re just reacting to what’s in front of you, you’re in fight or flight mode, right. And so, your or Feign is another part of the responses you can have. So that is something that’s your, your body, your entire body is connected to that. So you need to be able to what we call regulate, so regulate yourself in that instance. But then there’s also what we know is like, is so many people who like are taking for sabbaticals. For example, we were talking to somebody the other day, who was like, who works in you with overcoming with a war in Ukraine. And she says that people just fall off the face of the earth, right? So the map because they have such deep burnout that they’re experiencing. So what I’m what we’re also noticing is that it’s not just a band aid approach. It’s not just there’s a book that came out that we talked about on our on our website as well around. It’s not just self care, right? It’s much be much more beyond that. It’s not it’s not going to you’re not going to take a mani pedi for example. Like it’s going to be like I’m going to be done. It’s something that really have to go inward. Yes. Build the power within yourself. To be an actor in your life. Set the boundaries you need to set, build the relationships you need to build to create a better life for yourself.
Maria Ross 14:57
Well, and I love that you brought that up because when I talk about the self Hair pillar in my new book. It isn’t mani pedi it isn’t massage is my friend of mine who’s a women’s coach I’ve had on the show before Jamie Greenwood, and I’ll link to her episode where she talks about that self maintenance. That sorry, self care is Minar it’s physical care. It’s emotional care. It’s also not necessarily static or silent self care could be what rejuvenates you what refreshes you? What recharges you you know, maybe for some people, it’s paragliding, like that’s self care, even though that’s a huge adrenaline rush. But I think you know why it was so important for me to pare self awareness and then talk about self care is, if you’re not self aware, you don’t know what self care you need. You don’t know what what your triggers are, you don’t know where your blind spots are, you don’t know what lights you up unless you are more self aware. And so yeah, it’s funny, because the work that we do around empathy is so outward focused, as it you know, as it shouldn’t be, it’s about dealing with people’s perspectives. But there’s so much inner work that has to take place before you go, yeah, empathy effectively. Yeah, yeah. Every new conversation I have, like this conversation right now, it just it reiterates that point, and not that we want to spend all of our time navel gazing. But yes, we do have to do some work by getting our own house in order before we can open that house to other perspectives and a needs and opinions. So I’m gonna I’m gonna segue us for a second, we weren’t planning to talk about this. But since you brought it up, I haven’t talked about this yet on the show is this difference between compassion, fatigue, and empathic distress. And we both have a really good friend Rob Volpe, who did a wonderful article a few weeks ago that I’ll link to where he talked about the difference. But what is the difference from your perspective, and especially as how it relates to maybe I’m not using the right language recovering from burnout. Mm
Amy J Wilson 16:55
hmm. So they also wrote an article probably about like six or eight months ago, I’ll send it to you. So you can, you can also link to that to around empathic distress in particular. And so I talked a little bit earlier about compassion, fatigue, and with compassion, fatigue is a condition that many people it’s someone becomes numb to the suffering of others. And they’re a lot less able to feel empathy towards those individuals. And there, they feel less hope in their ability to help at the end of the day. So it is actually an like an equation of secondary trauma, experiencing the trauma of someone else. Plus burnout equals your state passion fatigue, okay. And so, and that’s the emotional duress, secondary trauma is the emotional duress that you experience with that firsthand trauma that you’re experiencing. So it makes it makes sense that nurses or nurses, doctors, first responders, even therapists, I would think teachers to teachers, yeah, there’s experience. And that’s a large, we actually have my co conspirator on this work. She is a teacher who left the profession and wants to help a teachers heal. Right. So we’ve been co creating that forum for that reason, for as we’re up on healing professions. But if you take him on the other side of the spectrum, you asked about empathic distress. So empathic distress is, is what’s happening in our bodies, we are wired to pick up signals from other people’s nervous systems. And so that is called empathic resonance. But sometimes we’re going to when other people are giving these signals, like distracts it does distress signals. And I’m like, SOS, like, if you’re in the, in the middle of the water, like these SOS like, yeah, these beacons going is that are, like going off, you’re picking up those signals, whether you like it or not, right? Your body is just wired to do this. And so what’s happening? Is it making you even more stressed at the end of the day, and that is why that people who are in workplaces that are challenging workplaces, other people are around you are in distress, even in your own personal relationships. If somebody is in distress, you already start feeling that distress as well. And so what happens with that is that over time, over the course of a day, you might start off with energy, but at the end of the day, you’re showing up depleted, and exhausted. And so we check out, we start disconnecting from ourselves and from others.
Maria Ross 19:43
We numb ourselves within up with negative behaviors, drinking drugs, all the things right, the things that distract us. I’m wondering too, I’ve heard that empathic distress is also something that can happen to us when we’re hearing about so much violence and pain. Heat and suffering going on in the world, right? And right now we’re sort of in that situation where you just feel like it’s so much, you’re never going to be able to have an impact, you’re never going to be able to help anyone. So you sort of just like, I’m done, I’m out, I can too much.
Amy J Wilson 20:18
Shut off the faucet. Right, you know. And I think Adam Grant did a piece recently about empathic distress when it comes to that, too. And I think of it in my own therapy of like, it’s like a gray door that shuts down when there’s emotions coming up, like I have to do. Like, that’s, that’s part of my own story about dissociation is like, when it gets too emotional, you shut down, and you shut that off, because it’s too hard to feel. Right.
Maria Ross 20:47
Right. And our bodies will do that to us to protect us. Yeah. So it’s emotional. And it’s mental, but it’s also physical, right?
Amy J Wilson 20:56
Oh, yeah. Yeah, a lot of this work is the physical reconnecting to who we are, and recognizing what’s our inner life? What is the what is our feelings? How are we showing up? It’s even deeper than just awareness. It’s like, how does that show up? Up in like, in Cymatics? In our body, right, so Right, right. Part of what we do. Okay,
Maria Ross 21:16
so let’s talk about the solution. Right? For people listening, who are going they’re nodding their heads vigorously going, Yes, I’m in it, I’m there, what can I do, and you have a framework that you are going to share with us and then also that you go deeper into in your program and on your website, but give us a little a moose boosh of your framework,
Amy J Wilson 21:36
and love a moose. Boosh. So I’ve got the four R’s framework, the first part of the framework is called regulation. So earlier, I mentioned that the first part of this work, it has to start with yourself in Trump personal work. So we’re going to go deep into uncovering your emotions, your feelings, what you need to do to understand and define who we are, and our purpose and principles. So we focus on something like the mirror, like what we look in and look at ourselves. But we also look at what the the window is how our identities show up in the world. So give us an example of that. Yeah, so some something I would say is like, we actually go into all the different pieces of identity. So one piece of my identity is I am I show up as a pansexual. Woman, and so but I’m also have a, like a disability, like an invisible disability. And so I sometimes people see me and see that I’m showing up in in, in a certain way, right? And I’m if I’m holding hands with a man, for example, they’re going to assume that I’m heterosexual, right? And but I do have this additional identity. So like, how is that mindset kind of shaped, being how I perceive the world at the end of the day?
Maria Ross 23:01
So if I can reflect back, what I hear you saying is that you’re it’s not just your own identity for yourself, but your perception of the identity. Others have a view? Is that, am I on the right track there? How we
Amy J Wilson 23:14
perceive the world? It’s so it’s how can we we take in the world when we talk about identity. And there’s lots of different pieces of of that and we go into like 20, some dimensions of, of your identity. But identity can be things that we’ve inherited, you know, so this mindset of, you know, what we’ve gotten done in the US, for example, we have a focus on rugged rugged individualism is really big here, you know, and so
Maria Ross 23:43
don’t get me started.
Amy J Wilson 23:45
Individualistic versus the collective. Right. Exactly. Yeah, spectrum. Yeah. So all of these things exist on a spectrum. So where do we live in these kind of like spectrums of life? Right? So that’s, that’s a deep exploration. So that’s like the first piece where you’re just being like, who am I? How do I perceive myself, but how do I perceive the world? That is what regulation so I can get into that space, right? Part two is called relationships. And so that’s where we talk about the work relationships, we help you to start seeing the system we call it. This is where you start doing interpersonal relationships. When people think of empathy, they usually think of interpersonal relationships. And, you know, we said earlier it’s inside and also engaging with the other people. So you’re now starting to share emotions with other people, share feelings with other people, you’re going to challenge your assumptions. This is where you start set setting boundaries, and understanding what our boundaries and we were never taught boundaries growing up, especially
Maria Ross 24:50
women. Yeah, especially especially women. You’re not supposed to have a boundary as a woman. Yep, yeah, worse.
Amy J Wilson 24:56
Just do what other people tell you to do. Yes, exactly. So 100%. So also we help you reframe failure as learning as you go out into the world. And then you’re overcoming the self doubt that you have inside of the, the your comfort with ambiguity and changing and also, how do you take action. So throw this out this whole experience, it’s like, looking inward, but it’s also been like, action is a big part of what we do. So that’s part two. Part three is resilience. And so this part of the framework is where it’s putting things into practice. And so the first two are is like, inter intrapersonal, interpersonal, part three is where you start seeing the start engaging with the extra personal, right. So that is like the system that’s around us and start seeing how do we manage our adversity by drawing on our resources, as we keep showing up in this space. And so we’re going to be more equipped with that to deal with setbacks in this work. But it really has to do with like taking all of those things you learned in the first two sections, and show up to pause and reflect? How am I doing? Because we don’t do that enough. We don’t get to sit and be like,
Maria Ross 26:16
we’re on. We’re on to the next thing. Yeah, right.
Amy J Wilson 26:18
Exactly. Right. How do we How did we I did I react to somebody in a very interesting way there, right? How can I reframe conversations that and have conversations that people perceive as hard conversations, but but at the end of the day, they create better relationships at the end of the day. Right? So and then also, what is who are your trusted allies? Who are your who’s the community around you, that can help you grow and be better? And then the fourth piece is called reintegration. This is a piece that I love myself. And it’s, it’s actually where empathy and innovation meet, and that experience. And so we know that you’ve learned in this container in a better way that you get to see what are the things that we’re doing? How do we, we know that there’s in the world that you’re integrating into, they’re not going to be focusing on like the world of work? It seems authentic, you want to try to go out into the world in an authentic way. And so the world around you doesn’t speak the same language. So how do you go into that language, and start creating a system that will allow you to not just change yourself, but change your team and also change the system around you?
Maria Ross 27:35
I love that this is the final step of the framework, because I actually wanted to ask you about that before you even got to this part. And it’s that idea of we can do all this work, and create this language and the system for ourselves. What do we do when we’re confronted in, in interpersonal relationships where the other people don’t have that awareness? Don’t have that language? Don’t have that understanding? Right? I get that question. A lot of like, I’m doing all this work, and I’m trying to but then when I actually integrate and engage with someone else who has not had that those learnings, those epiphanies, that, that deep reflection, what is the advice that you give to those people?
Amy J Wilson 28:17
Well, I personally think that if you are showing up differently than I know this from my own personal healing work, that if you show up differently, the people around you start showing up differently as well. So that is a key part of this work is like you’re continually having a community in turn to. But we also can be beacons of hope for other people at the same time. So I can’t always control what somebody else does. But if I’m reacting or responding actually, to somebody in a in a kind and compassionate way, people are going to understand they’re like, Oh, well, this person is responding to me in a different way than I was expecting before. So that that change can actually occur through that. But there’s also a lot of things that you learn from, like community organizing, that we’re bringing into this piece around. How do you get people to engage? It’s quite the ladder of engagement. So how did you get different people who are leaning into this work already, and get them to be change leaders, and almost build a movement of empathy? And, and overcoming burnout within the system? Because we can’t have one individual can’t just change a system. But we have to build a coalition of the willing. I
Maria Ross 29:35
love that because that’s actually how I answer that question a lot is that it’s kind of not it’s not our work or our job to necessarily convert someone else. But we can show up in the exchange, we can show up in the interaction in a certain way that models the behavior. We all know that that modeling is more effective than telling. And so if you’re modeling that in the behavior and even if someone’s being antagonistic For argumentative or, you know, withholding, they’re going to notice if you’re not getting fazed by that, if you’re still reaching out, if you’re still, if you’re still acting with empathy, if you’re still asking questions, they may not admit it in the conversation, but they’re going to know something was different about that conversation, because quite, quite likely, that’s not the reaction they get in their other exchanges, they probably are met, the reason they have those reactions, and they have that that model for themselves is because that’s what they’ve been getting back from other people who haven’t done the work either. And so it’s sort of like, you’re kind of shocking them into, into engaging with you of like, oh, usually somebody yells at me by now for asking that question or doing that thing, or usually they walk out of the room and slam the door when I react that way, but this person has stayed, this person is actually engaging with me, what’s going on here, and you sort of create that intrigue around, maybe there’s a different way that you can interact with someone and you you might, that other person might actually really like the experience of being in that exchange and want more of it. Right? So little by little, it’s like these little ripples, right? Like, and then they go on, and they you know, let someone in front of them in traffic later that day, you know, it’s that whole ad knock on effect is
Amy J Wilson 31:21
the ripple impact. I know I wasn’t thinking about in the bigger in a bigger context of curiosity is something that is the number one thing I teach people, like, that’s the first step and empathy really, like a lot of judgment. And like, if you start having curiosity about the other person, you know, you start questioning, like, why are they reacting this way? Maybe something happened to them at work, or maybe they’re just having a bad day, all these different things. You start having, you know, self compassion, you have compassion, but you have compassion for them. So you’re like, Okay, where are they coming from? And then you can be like, how do I respond in a way that might be helpful for them?
Maria Ross 32:01
That’s so interesting, because Well, number one, I am constantly working on my Miss Jegi Ness all the time. And what I’ve what I’ve interjected into my thoughts, is, instead of judging making myself go, well, that’s interesting. Yeah, and just kind of like observing it and thinking about, and it also reminds me of when I wait, you know, folks that have listened to my podcast know about my experience, surviving a ruptured brain aneurysm. And when I was in therapy, we did cognitive behavioral therapy to help us with the damage that had been done to our emotional regulation and our emotional filters, especially with a frontal lobe injury, and cognitive behavioral therapy, challenges you invites you to come up with potential alternatives to the initial explanation, you’ve given yourself in your head about what someone is doing. So for example, that person just rudely cut in front of me in traffic, they’re a jerk bla bla, maybe they just found out their wife is in the hospital, and they’re trying to get to the hospital, maybe they got fired today, maybe they and that’s a very simplistic view of that therapy, I don’t claim to be an expert in that therapy. But that’s what I took away from it is, because what we would do is we would measure our emotions before. And then after we thought of alternatives. And always the emotions were less angry, less resentful, less, you know, less aggressive, when you when you start to think of alternate theories or alternate reasons why someone might be behaving the way they were behaving, if you don’t feel so self righteous after that. And so what everything you’re saying is reminding that because I, you know, you forget after you’re not in therapy anymore, but but it’s it’s a muscle that you have to practice. Yeah. And luckily, we get lots of opportunities to practice dealing with bad behavior, right? So,
Amy J Wilson 33:58
yeah, well, when it comes to what you were saying, when you were saying that it was like, it’s all coming back to empathy, right? Because what empathy is it’s feeling with someone instead of for them. And so when you are having that curiosity, when you’re thinking and using the CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, you’re starting to say, what is not the story that I’m having? It’s their story. Right? Right, the story they could be having, and you’re now having empathy, right? And so, but that’s the exact thing that burnout stops us from doing right. Yeah, able to open up No, and to have that that space, you know, as your your,
Maria Ross 34:33
your bruised your, your, your sense. You’re just like, Ah, I’m just, I don’t deal with somebody else right now. Right. So I love the connection that you’ve made there. And this is such a great conversation. We could talk a million hours more sure. But all your links will be in the show notes, your your link to healing for work to your books to some of the articles that you mentioned, but for folks on the go listening while they’re In exercising and practicing self care for their physical body, where is the one place people can go to find out more information, right?
Amy J Wilson 35:07
So healing for work.com. It’s healing for work as a community and a program for individuals healing from burnout or preventing burnout. That’s also another part. We’re not just talking about healing from it. And so it’s, it’s also helping to shift the system for everyone. So there’s programs for individuals, there’s programs for organizations, I always want to get one plug, we have weekly support sessions, every Tuesday from at 3pm. Pacific 6pm. Eastern time. So later today, it is a Tuesday, we’re going to be having anyone experiencing burnout can come and participate in us go go to healing for work.com/join. And you can learn about our two coaching programs, and also about support sessions and sign up there. I love that.
Maria Ross 35:58
Thank you for sharing that. I’m sure a lot of people are going to run over to that URL right now, Amy, a pleasure as always talking with you, musing about all these big issues with you. And thank you for spending the time with us today.
Amy J Wilson 36:11
Yeah, thank you for having me. This has been great. And thank you everyone for listening
Maria Ross 36:15
to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend. And until next time, remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.