Podcast Episodes Archive - Page 5 of 23 - Red Slice | Speaker, Author, Leadership Trainer

Jeannie Gainsburg: How to Be a Savvy LGBTQ+ Ally

Can allyship be fun? Or do you envision every inclusion or diversity training as a slog? It doesn’t have to be so heavy-handed!

Today, Jeannie Gainsburg shares why, as a cisgender woman, she became a strong ally. We tackle how to get over the heaviness and blame of allyship and focus on having conversations with an open heart. We discuss pronouns and why sharing your pronouns (even if they seem obvious) is a great ally action. She also offers the best ways to gather pronouns from others without making it awkward. We talked about what being out and authentic at work looks like. Finally, Jeannie shares a few concrete tips and policies for creating a more LGBTQ+ inclusive workplace.

Her encouraging, passionate, and warm-hearted approach will surely jumpstart even the most tentative ally.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

There are many causes to fight for – just pick one and start going. Fighting for rights for one, is fighting for rights for all.
People want to learn, so encouragement, not judgment, is critical.
We all use pronouns all day, every day. It doesn’t only affect those who are transgender.

“Being an ally is an ongoing journey of messing up. We need to get comfortable with and understand that. Don’t let the fear of messing up or not knowing the right word stop you from having conversations, and know how to apologize. Just have the conversations with an open heart.”

— Jeannie Gainsburg

Episode References:

Daniel Jahn, The Empathy Edge Podcast: Racial Solidarity and the Psychology of Racism
Leo Caldwell, The Empathy Edge Podcast: Why Anti-Trans Laws and Homophobia are Anti-Business
We Can Do Hard Things podcast with Glennon Doyle

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About Jeannie Gainsburg, Founder, Savvy Ally Action

Jeannie Gainsburg is an educational trainer and consultant in the field of LGBTQ+ inclusion and effective allyship. She is the founder of Savvy Ally Action, a small business that offers fun, accessible, and encouraging workshops and videos on how to be an ally to the LGBTQ+ community. Before forming the company, she spent 15 years working for the Out Alliance, the LGBTQ+ center in Rochester, NY.

Her book, The Savvy Ally: A Guide for Becoming a Skilled LGBTQ+ Advocate, was published by Rowman & Littlefield in 2020, with the revised 2nd edition published in March 2023.

Jeannie has a BA in psychology from Brown University and an MA in social work and social research from Bryn Mawr College. She is the recipient of the Empire State Pride Agenda’s Community Champion Award and the Rochester LGBTQ Community Appreciation Award. In 2019, Jeannie also received a citation from the New York State Assembly for Distinguished Educational & Human Rights Services for her work in promoting LGBTQ+ rights and inclusion.

Connect with Jeannie Gainsburg:

Savvy Ally Action: savvyallyaction.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jeannie-gainsburg

Facebook: facebook.com/savvyally

Instagram: instagram.com/jeanniegainsburgauthor

Book: The Savvy Ally: A Guide for Becoming a Skilled LGBTQ+ Advocate (2nd Edition)

Bonus: 100% of royalties from 1st-year sales of the 2nd edition are donated to LGBTQ+ nonprofits working to create a more inclusive world!

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Jeannie Gainsburg 06:05

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I’m thrilled to be here.

Maria Ross 06:08

So tell us a little bit. You know, we just heard your bio. But tell us a little bit about the story of how you actually came to this work. That’s always the most interesting nugget of how people get to the work and their calling that they do in the world.

Jeannie Gainsburg 06:22

Yeah, so I am a straight cisgender ally to the communities Meaning I’m not transgender, I’m not part of the LGBTQ plus communities, I grew up in a very straight cisgender world, always felt like LGBTQ plus inclusion was kind of a no brainer, but was never an ally was never active, didn’t even know there was a role for me to play as an ally. You know, back when I was a kid, I don’t even think I knew the word ally wasn’t being used the way it is today in social justice circles. And so I did a lot of nothing for a long time. And then at age 40, and 2003, several things came together at once that really launched me into what ended up being a career as an active ally. One was that I had young children who were in school, and I was not happy with what I was hearing. They were the especially the boys were teasing each other over at school, you know, saying some pretty derogatory things about gay kids. And I was like, Really, we’re still there. I don’t know, I somehow expected things were in better than when I was looking at marriage equality was newly in the media. And it was one of the first things that I was able to latch on to and think, oh, there’s something I can help with. Because in my ignorance, I really didn’t even know what there was to, to support. And then finally, my husband gave me a book about the women who had fought in the US for my my right as a woman to vote. And I was doing that thing that I do when I read history. I don’t know if you do this, Maria. But when I read history, I tend to think, you know, how would I have behaved if I live back then what I have salutely no known that this was right or wrong would have been involved. And I had course convinced myself that I would have been marching right alongside all those amazing women who fought for my right to vote. And it suddenly hit me how hypocritical I was being because I’m like, here, I am fantasizing about how I would have behaved 100 years ago, and I am not doing a thing about any of this right now in my lifetime. And there’s, you know, social justice fights going on in my lifetime. So it was something that really struck me that evening, it was still with me in the morning, I looked up the word gay in the phonebook, because I didn’t know what else was out there. And actually, ironically, our agency I’m coming to you from Rochester, New York, our LGBTQ plus agency at the time was called the Gay Alliance. So it was very easy to find. And I picked up the phone and asked if I could volunteer, and that ended up launching me into what ended up being a career as a as an ally, I worked for that agency for 15 years, two years as a volunteer 13 years as staff. My final five years there, I was the education director, which just put a wealth of information in my head about how to be a really effective ally. And, and then following that position. I wrote the book because it was information I wanted to get out into the world. Well,

Maria Ross 09:04

and I’m curious, because I, I relate to so much of what you’re saying. And sometimes I get paralyzed with. There’s so many groups I want to work with or double down on. And so is it. Is it the gay community? Is it women’s rights? Is it you know, racial equity, is it So what specifically made you land on, you know, opening your eyes to the hypocritical nature, which again, I completely relate to, and I see you on that. What made you double down on gay and lesbian and queer rights? An ally ship?

Jeannie Gainsburg 09:40

Yeah. So of course, the more I do this work, the more I realized these are all intertwined all of these intersectional identities. So I’m actually fighting for all of the things you just mentioned. And, you know, that was a slow realization for me, but you know, I’m really starting to understand that this is true, but I really think that I’ll be vulnerable here. I think it was a And parents, I really do. I think that what I was hearing from my kids was teasing about, you know, the boys being gay in a derogatory way. I wasn’t hearing negative racial comments coming from my kids. In fact, they seem pretty, pretty comfortable with racial difference. So, again, I think that was totally my, my ignorance. You know, since then I have educated myself a bit more on racial justice. And, you know, so, you know, and disability to wasn’t even on my radar, but disability rights, I mean, all those things, I think are blossoming now, as I’m involved in this work, but I really just think it was ignorance. That’s why I said, when I heard marriage equality in the news, I was like, oh, there’s something I can fight for. You know? Yeah. So yeah, I really think it was that that this population, it wasn’t anything personal. I didn’t have anyone in my family who’s part of the LGBTQ plus communities. So interest zapper an answer.

Maria Ross 10:54

I love that. No, I love it. I love the vulnerability of it, because that’s where, again, and I’m sure people listening too. Sometimes we get paralyzed. And like, I don’t know which battle to fight first. So I’m not going to do anything, right. Yes, it just feels so overwhelming. And I love that you took that feeling of like, I’m not doing anything, and you did something. And as you said, they’re all interrelated. When we’re fighting for rights for one marginalized community, we’re fighting for rights for everybody. Right? So I want to bring up something that I loved that I saw on your website, which is that you say, you offer a fun and encouraging approach to being an active ally to the LGBTQ plus communities. What does that mean? And why is that different than what you see out there?

Jeannie Gainsburg 11:41

Hmm, great question. So this isn’t 100% across the board, what I’m seeing, but I do sometimes see information for allies, which sounds like this, being an ally is a 24/7 job, you don’t get to take a break, here’s a list of things that you have to do in order for you to call yourself an ally. And I see these things. And I think, okay, being LGBTQ plus is not a choice being an ally is people can do absolutely nothing, who is going to sign up for a job that you can’t take a break, it’s 24/7. And you have to check off all these boxes, which by the way, I do this work full time, and I can’t check all those boxes, you know, it’s the daunting list. It is so intimidating. It’s so unforgiving of mistakes, it’s unforgiving of, you know, the ally who’s fairly active, and then all of a sudden, they’re suddenly they’re taking care of an aging parent, and they just don’t have the time that they had before. I’m like, this is not the way to get people on board. With ally ship. I really So my approach is very much well, I’ll see fun for a moment. But my approach is very much encouraging it, I let people know that being an ally is an ongoing journey of messing up. We need to get comfortable with that and understand that. And, you know, don’t let that fear of messing up or not maybe knowing the right word, stop you from having conversations and just know how to apologize and you know, have conversations with an open heart. And most of the folks I talk with who make up the participants in my workshops, for example, are these big hearted people who want to do the right thing. And they’re scared to death to open their mouth, they’re so afraid they’re going to make an error. And so, so I am very encouraging. And then the fun part. I just, you know, I wanted my book and my workshops to be just enjoyable. I didn’t want someone to, I didn’t want it to be like an academic slog that somebody had to read. I’m like, why not make this fun? Why not add humor where it’s appropriate? My book and my workshops are filled with fun pop quizzes, like what do gay people actually do in the bedroom? Choices are, you know, read books, change the sheets, you know, only back and under the bed, have sex all of the above, you know, just goofy things like that to make right giggle about the stereotypes and the myths and the misunderstandings about the community. I add fun facts like you can’t actually tell a lesbian biker shoes. For those who think, you know, you see someone wearing Birkenstocks. Obviously that’s a lesbian. I was the only woman who wore Birkenstocks in our center. So I love I love that, that I busting that myth. But I just think it should be fun. It should be, you know, again, as entertaining as possible. So people want to read the book, and they want to learn and I think that in that encouragement pieces is so critical.

Maria Ross 14:33

Thank you for saying that because you’re reminding me of a previous guest. We had Daniel John DJ, and he does work with sole focus group and his approach. E is African American, mixed, I believe. And his approach to the work of dei is similar in that he’s like we’re not going to have conversations with people if all we’re doing is judging and shaming them. Like yes, there are things that are wrong with the system. There. things that are wrong with people who hold certain beliefs, we want to change that. But the way to get people onside is to actually this idea of coming together. And unity should be uplifting, it should be encouraging, it should be fun. It shouldn’t be. Here’s all the things you did wrong till I beat you down to a pulp. And then now we’re going to rebuild. Now we’re going to reconstruct everything. So in fact, I love that there’s way more, there’s a lot more experts in ally ship that are out there talking about this. And I don’t say that as a white woman, who is just scared of conflict. I’m not. I’m also Italian American. So I’m not scared of conflict. But this i But this idea that it has to, like you said that it has to be so heavy handed. Because how are we going to reach people, if we don’t have empathy for where they are in the process and be able to get them on side? Because what is the goal? Right? It’s just like, parenting is the goal to punish your child or is the goal to help your child learn and grow? The goal is to help people learn and grow. And so we can do that in a fun and light way. Even when we’re talking about heavy things. I think that’s the other thing you mentioned, I think some people are scared to make light of it or use humor, because they feel it’s disrespectful, or they feel like they’re just exacerbating the problem. So kudos to you for trying to make it accessible to everyone. So given you know, we talk a lot on the show about all facets of empathy and dei be ally ship across all different marginalized groups is such a part of that because it’s about understanding somebody else’s lived experience. So you know, when you do hear comments from people that say, oh, dei is inappropriate to discuss at work, or sexual orientations, specifically, is inappropriate to discuss at work. What does? How should people respond to that? And what does being out and authentic at work look like? I think people have a different idea of what it means to be out at work and the behaviors that will ensue from that. So tell us a little bit about what you say to skeptics who say this doesn’t belong in the workplace?

Jeannie Gainsburg 17:15

Yeah, this is a very common question that I hear often, you know, there’s no sexual orientation, I don’t bring my sexual orientation to work, there’s no play, you know. So there’s a couple of things that I like to do. And I often encourage allies to listen for the confusion over between sexual orientation and sexual behaviors. So sexual orientation comes to work with us, folks, we can’t, we can’t leave it at home. I say it’s kind of like, you know, you’re asking someone to leave their sexual orientation home is kind of like saying, Can you leave the fact that you’re Jewish at home, because that really has nothing to do with work? You know, you can’t leave the fact that you’re Jewish at home, and you can’t leave the fact that you’re a lesbian, or a gay man or bisexual at home. It’s part of who you are, and it comes to work, what isn’t what doesn’t come to work, unless the caveat is, of course, if you’re a sex worker, that’s different, but in the corporate world, what doesn’t come to work is our sexual behaviors. And I think that confusion is what really, really again, it just it just confuses folks. And so what it looks like when you are authentic at work, or you’re bringing your sexual orientation to work, and you’re not hiding that is, you know, you’re able to put a picture of your family on your desk, or you’re able to bring your loved one to the company party, you know, the same way that straight people are doing these things, and probably not even thinking twice about it. And so one of the things that I like to share is that even though your orientation comes to work, and the fact that you’re Jewish comes to work, I’ll use both of these examples. You can’t keep them at home, all you can do is hide them if you feel unsafe with both of those things, right. And that leads to a really ugly situation at work, where people are not being able to be themselves and they’re, they’re having to think about, you know, maybe who they told and who they didn’t, or they’re literally lying there. You know, I like to give an example of like the lesbian at work, who basically switches the pronouns when she talks about her wife, you know, because she’s, she’s not sure if she’s, it’s safe, but work for her to share that she has a wife, she’s still a lesbian at workbooks. That hasn’t changed, right? She’s just having to cover she’s having to hide who she is. Right. And, you know, I think a lot of people can relate to that, whether it’s, I don’t feel safe to sharing that I’m Jewish, I don’t feel safe sharing that I have maybe a disability, right? That isn’t obvious to people. I’m going to hide that because I don’t feel like that’s going to be okay at work. I think a lot of people can relate to those things. And so orientation is the same and being authentic at work. You know, anyone who’s done any research into this knows that it’s actually good for business to be out and authentic at work like people are more likely to have jobs satisfied. Action, they’re more likely to make connections with coworkers, that retention is better. And it’s also been shown that companies that you know, welcome and include LGBTQ plus people, that they have higher company value, they’re more productive, they have higher profits, these things are all being shown. So this is also good for business and not just good for our LGBTQ plus co workers completely.

Maria Ross 20:23

And I did an interview, I’ll put the link in the show notes to another interview I did with Leo Caldwell, who’s an LGBTQ plus consultant and teacher and workshop leader. And he talked about the fact that we titled that episode, why transphobic laws are anti business, because it is this idea of if your employees and if we want to be really cold hearted about it, your assets are too preoccupied trying to and I use this in all aspects of empathy, trying to protect themselves and survive and save their own skin. And they’re worried about you. They’re watching their backs every second. Are they innovating for you? Are they performing for you? Are they are they creating? Are they coming up with with creative solutions that actually move your business forward and contribute to the bottom line? No, they’re preoccupied. And who wants preoccupied employees? Right. That’s not good for the business. Yeah. And so it just reminded me of that, when you were bringing up that point, that what we’re talking about here is people that have to watch every move, they have to watch what they say, they can’t be who they are, that is detracting from them doing the work you hired them to do. And so it’s not good for your business. Like, I don’t know why that’s not super clear to people. But, you know, we talked about so many other distractions, right, like, oh, you know, this person’s not gonna be able to do this job because they’re, you know, they have a new puppy and they can’t do it, we’re able to talk about all these other things. Oh, sense. Yeah, that makes sense, right. But, but when we talk about this, it’s just crazy to me. But anyway, what? Let’s, let’s get specific. Let’s talk about the issue of pronouns, because you get a lot of eye rolls when you talk to certain people about why pronouns are important. And why is sharing your pronouns, a great ally action, even if you’re cisgender? Yep. So there’s a couple things

Jeannie Gainsburg 22:29

I want to say first of all, pronouns, I know that pronouns are getting such a bad reputation, and I’m just so confused by it. So I just want to say that pronouns are not something that only transgender folks use Dragoman our hour without using a pronoun like pronouns are important for all of us, they’re as important as our names are, it’s just that most of us, many of us, I should say, you move through the world, and the correct pronoun is chosen for us. And so we don’t realize the impact of having the wrong pronoun used for us and how hurtful that is, and how difficult that is. It’s not pronouns have not been invented by transgender people. I also want to let you know that there are plenty of transgender people who move through the world and the correct pronoun is used for them. And there are also cisgender people who move through the world and the wrong pronoun is used for them. So this is not just, you know, over misgendering those transgender folks, yes, I think more often, it affects our transgender and non binary friends, but there are plenty of cisgender folks who have just because of their gender expression, maybe women who have very short hair or broad shoulders, they get misgendered I, I listened to a podcast called we can do hard things, and Abby Wambach was sharing that she gets misgendered constantly. She’s in the women’s restroom, and people are like, Oh, sir, I think you’re in the wrong room. And you know, he’s, he’s used for her. So this isn’t just something that affects our transgender friends. And I like to make sure people understand that, but it’s a great question. Like, why would someone share their pronouns if even if they’re obvious, so I’m someone who I moved to the world I’ve never once had someone use the wrong pronoun for me. And here I am on Zoom. I know folks probably can’t see this, but I have my name. And I have my pronouns right listed right after my Name, which I think is a great practice. I’m going to share a story to talk about how critical this is. So I had a person in my my one of my workshops recently, I’m gonna call them Arey their pronouns are they them and they started a new job. And they walked onto this job and there were no systems in place for this person to comfortably share their pronouns and by systems I mean, you know, when they applied for the job pronouns, were not an optional section for them to fill out when they went to the first meeting to meet the other the other staff members there was not when they did the go around, hey, let’s all say our name and our titles. No one said and if you feel comfortable share your pronouns. So there is no system to share your pronouns. So people looked at airy and based on their gender expression decided that their pronouns must be she her and they just immediately started using she her so Every candidate New Job was being misgendered wrong pronoun use didn’t know if they were safe to share that their pronouns were actually they them, and went for a couple of weeks like this not knowing what to do. And finally, what they did was they noticed that a few of their co workers had shared their pronouns in their email signatures. And airy went to these coworkers and basically shared their problem and said, This is what’s going on. And those co workers group together, started using their correct pronoun for Arey helped others get their pronoun correct. And started implementing systems in the workplace, to, you know, make it at just an optional thing for anyone who wants to share. So now, this system is in place for people to do that. So others coming in now? No, it’s safe to do that. Now, the reason I like sharing the story, I mean, several reasons. It’s a very cool story. But anyone who thinks like, oh, I don’t want to share my pronouns, people think I’m just doing it because it’s woke, you know, I’m gonna get teased for being you know, ultra woke like this. This is actually not like, like virtue signaling. I mean, this is Ally signaling, it’s a great way to let people know that you are on board with, you know, anyone under the sun, regardless of their gender expression, or their pronouns, or anything like that. So I think it’s a lovely thing to do. The only other thing I’ll share about why I share my pronouns is it’s a great way to normalize the behavior. So if you think about, like, how awkward a world it would be if the only people, for example, walking around at a conference with pronouns on their shirts, were the ones whose pronouns weren’t the hobbyists, I mean, talk about othering, right? Like, Oh, those are those weirdos over there with pronouns on their shirt. Like, every time an ally, puts a pronoun on their shirt, you know, whether their pronouns are obvious or not, they are helping to create this culture, where this becomes the norm. And it makes it so much easier for those other people to share their pronouns because they have to, for people to get it, right. I

Maria Ross 26:54

love that, because it’s like you said, it’s a signal that it’s okay. And still, if a transgender individual chooses not to share their pronouns, that’s okay, too. But it always be optional. It’s this idea of saying, I understand, and I see you and I’m not a threat. And it’s making me think of a story a friend told me about the fact that they were one of the only houses in their neighborhood several years ago that had a Black Lives Matter sign in their window, and they were like, Oh, it doesn’t matter. That’s just such a surface thing. It’s like, you know, whatever. And they had a black tradesmen come to the house to do some work, who actually said, thank you for putting the sign up, because at least I knew I would be safe here. Yeah. And she said, literally, it’s the least I can do, like, stick a sign on that window. But I’m glad it’s appreciated. Because, you know, so this is sort of the least we can do.

Jeannie Gainsburg 27:49

Yeah, it’s a great ally accent it. The other thing I want to say just because there’s so much confusion around pronouns is when we ask people, and it should always be optional. So when we give people the opportunity to share pronouns, we are not asking anyone, how they identify people, I think confused this, we are not saying Are you trans? Are you lesbian? All we’re saying is how may I respectfully refer to you it’s much more similar to asking for someone’s title. You know, you look at me, you have no idea whether I’m a Mrs or a miss, or a ms or a mix, which is a gender neutral title, or a doctor or even a Mr. For that matter, unless you ask me, right? And so pronouns are the same. And if we think about it, like just respectfully asking people what their title is, I think people will, it’ll help people understand what it is that we’re asking, well,

Maria Ross 28:37

on many forms, there’s a suffix required, where I have to put Mrs. or Ms. Or I have to put something right. So why not have that be an actually you’re you’re sparking me because I have been meaning to add pronoun to my guest form from my website. So I need to do that. Usually, usually it comes through in their bio, but I need to actually ask them that. Yo, thank you for talking us through that. Because I think that’s a really confusing point for people, even if they want to be an ally, they’re like, but I don’t understand like someone should just if they want to tell me their evey or this or that they can just tell me but they don’t know. And it’s a great signal to just say that I do want to bring up one last thing before we leave the topic of pronouns that I’ve noticed. I’m a Jeopardy junkie, I DVR it and watch it over lunch hour and binge it when I’ve been on vacation. I’m a dork. They have had several contestants, where they have been I have noticed they have referred to them as they. The host has referred to them as they and I thought that is amazing that we have one of the oldest game shows on TV, a very, you know, conservative, if you will kind of game show and even they are honoring people by calling them the pronoun they prefer to be called. And so I noticed that for a few people, obviously for their transgender contestants, they were calling them the appropriate pronoun that that person wanted But there were a few people that didn’t, quote unquote, seem transgender, and may not have been, but they preferred to be referred to as they. So I was I was loving it that they wounds are changed.

Jeannie Gainsburg 30:11

And I share my cool thing that I did was silly. I was watching the movie Juno, Elliott page, and I noticed that when you watch on Amazon Prime, and you pause it, it’s got the like trivia, you know, like information about the movie, they went back and changed all of the, all of the places where it talked about Elliott and his pronouns to the current Elliott, and he didn’t know at the time that he had made the movie, he was not using that name, or those pronouns. I thought that was incredibly classy. Yeah, so they couldn’t change, you know, in like the credits that’s embedded in a movie, they can’t change that. But to go back and change all of the name and pronoun to reflect his current name and pronouns, like, that’s amazing. That’s it. I love that. Okay,

Maria Ross 30:55

so I know we’ve sort of beat pronouns to death here. But let’s talk a little bit about let’s get into the meat of it and talk a little bit about your favorite ally tips for creating more LGBTQ plus inclusive workplaces, what are things, leaders, and even just colleagues, individual contributors can actually do that, or low hanging fruit to help someone feel welcome and included?

Jeannie Gainsburg 31:17

Wonderful. So I’ll share, I’ll share two of my favorite tips. And I’m going to share them because I think as we move through the world, we should be using them both sort of in a circle. And I’ll tell you what I mean by that. So the first thing we should do is if we don’t know anything about someone, we should engender our language and our expectations. So, you know, I give the example of, you know, oh, you have a new coworker, and you see, she’s wearing a wedding ring, and you’re like, Oh, that’s a gorgeous ring, what is your husband do, which is like a really common thing that occurs, people make assumptions about, you know, who’s someone’s loved one is, so I have a husband, that’s not going to cause me any anxiety. But if I have a wife, you have boxed me into a corner, literally, like you’re forcing me into a situation where I have to come out or not make a decision, or was it come out or not. And that’s awful that we do that to LGBTQ plus people, I always say anyone who thinks that coming out, it’s like this fabulous day with music playing and glitter flying, which it totally should be. It’s not, it’s like an ongoing process, partly because of our gender to, you know, some ocean. So let’s not make those assumptions, let’s use on gender terms, let’s use spouse, that’s his partner, let’s use children, all of these things. And then the next your next tip is that we should mirror the terms that people are using for themselves in their loved ones. So if we then hear someone, say, my wife, now with this person has given us valuable information about how to be respectful to them, and we should use the term wife. So I know a lot of people when it comes to LGBTQ plus, folks, they latch on to that word partner, and they’re like, I gotta use partner, but they hold on so tight that that becomes offensive, right? So I know, like lesbian couples who are like, I keep introducing my wife. And they keep saying this is Ann’s partner and like, I didn’t introduce my partner introducing my whip. So as we move through the world, we’re on gendering if we have no idea, and then we’re listening to how people refer to themselves and their loved ones. And we’re using those words. So words like husband and girlfriend are not naughty words that we should never use, right? They’re words that are perfectly good words if they apply to people. And so that’s, that’s just those two things. And gender language mirror terms are just we should just be using that as we move through the world constantly to have respectful and inclusive conversations. And believe me, LGBTQ plus folks are listening for that they’re listening for the partner instead of the wife or the husband. Yeah,

Maria Ross 33:45

right. What what are some things in terms of policy or education that workplaces can be doing to make things more inclusive? So those are quick hit individuals that’s up to you as you as you navigate those relationships. But what can actually be done? What are one or two highlights? I’m sure there’s many What are one or two highlights that that leaders can incorporate into their processes and systems? Well, we

Jeannie Gainsburg 34:10

talked about pronouns and I don’t want to beat it to death, but I think it is, it is a really easy thing for a leader to do, which is to share their own pronouns and to create systems where everyone has the opportunity to share if they want to, and that’s the language that I use, and you have the opportunity to share if you want to, it should always be optional, but that is again with your low hanging fruit for a leader that’s something that’s pretty easy to implement. And so that that’s a good one um, engendered facilities are so important, you know, making sure that you have restrooms for example, that are single stall and unrendered. So if you have restrooms now that are single stall and gendered, there’s really no reason for them to be so in a very easy fix is to just change that sign to all gender and avoid if you would avoid the half and half person because no one actually looks like that. and really dislike that just all gender, or restroom, or a toilet image, like all those things are great. But yeah, avoid the half and half. And listen, that’s bad. And to tell you,

Maria Ross 35:12

I have to tell you, there’s such a funny sign. I’ve seen it. I’ve seen a few places now, at restaurants that have all inclusive restrooms, and it’s a picture, it’s that you know, the stick figure of the male, the stick figure, the female, they do have the stick figure of the half skirt, whatever. And then they have the stick figure of for disability, and the stick figure for pregnant person. And then they have an alien. And the design just says, whatever, just wash your hands.

Jeannie Gainsburg 35:39

I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it. And I giggled hard that I I’m snapping pictures, and I’m sending it to people. I actually talked about that in my book. So this is

Maria Ross 35:50

your point about let’s have fun with it. Let’s be a little bit light hearted if we can, right. Yeah,

Jeannie Gainsburg 35:55

yeah. So I talked about the different like options for for signs. Yeah, so all gender restrooms, and I think that when you get to renovating buildings, that’s when we really need to look at like, what ideally should this look like. So that’s, that’s more long term. But that’s how that’s helpful for and respectful, not just for, like our non binary friends or our trans friends who are transitioning, but like people who have disabilities, people who need a little more room, people who need a caregiver to come into the restroom with them, people who have small children, I mean, you know, there’s so many people that are helped by having a single stall all gender restroom. So that that’s, again, something to look at. One more policy thing that I would just say is that a lot of people have, you know, when they look at their non discrimination policies, there’s actually three things they should have there. Not everyone is aware of this sexual orientation, most people have that, as in we do not discriminate, you know, with regards to sexual orientation, gender identity, is the other one. And the third one is gender expression. So the gender expression protects everyone really from someone saying, Oh, you need to dress a little more feminine in the workplace. So that’s that, you know, that’s an important piece as well. But those three are important to make sure that you have those included in your non discrimination policies. Not so good. So good. Well,

Maria Ross 37:18

thank you so much for your time and your insights today, Jeanne, we really appreciate it. We hope everyone will check out the book, the savvy ally, a guide for becoming a skilled LGBTQ plus advocate now in its second edition, and I do want to mention that you’re doing something really exciting with the second edition, you’re donating 100% of royalties from the first year of sales for the second edition to LGBTQ plus nonprofits working to create a more inclusive world. So thank you for that. So, folks, not only can you glean all these great insights from the book, but you can do a little good in the world as well. So please, go ahead and purchase a copy of the book for yourself and or one of your colleagues. Jeanne, we’re gonna have all your links in the show notes, but where for folks on the go or exercising or whatever, where’s a good place that they can find out more about you and your work? Yeah,

Jeannie Gainsburg 38:10

the best place is my website, which is savvy ally action.com. There, you can purchase my book, you can message me directly. If you have questions. I love getting questions from the community, it actually helps me become a savvier ally. You can see the workshops that I offer. I’ve also got a lot of free goodies on there, some free handouts and free videos and things like that.

Maria Ross 38:29

Awesome. Awesome. And like I said, we’ll have all your links in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time today.

Jeannie Gainsburg 38:34

Thank you. This was fun. I appreciate being on your show. And thank

Maria Ross 38:37

you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend or colleague. And until next time, please remember that kashflow creativity and compassion and inclusivity are not mutually exclusive. Take care of the kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

January Hot Take: How Either/Or Thinking is Killing Your Company

Leaders, listen up: Have you ever heard the improv maxim, “Yes, and….?”

In my work researching, writing, and speaking to audiences about the power of empathy, a magnet has pulled me to one notion that gets in the way in almost every dysfunctional workplace or societal conversation.

Let me explain…

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Our brains both defend us and hold us back due to cognitive dissonance. We want only one thing to be true because it is more simple, but simplicity is not always the answer.
Either/or thinking is broken and got us, as a society, into our current mess.
Dialectics is understanding we can hold two, seemingly contradictory things, to be true at the same time. It is a concept that will strengthen our businesses and our lives outside of work.

“In our world and workplaces today, it no longer serves us to focus on either/or thinking. We must embrace BOTH/AND.” — Maria Ross

Episode References:

Improv’s famous “Yes, and…”
Discover more about the power of empathy and how to apply it to make a difference in your work and life at your organization or event!
Psychology Today, Cognitive Dissonance: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cognitive-dissonance
Seeing things differently: Red Slice blog, Representation Matters: https://www.red-slice.com/representation-matters/
Red Slice blog, What Leadership Success Requires in Today’s World: https://www.red-slice.com/what-leadership-success-requires-in-todays-world/
Behavioral Psych Studio, What the heck is a dialectic? https://behavioralpsychstudio.com/what-the-heck-is-a-dialectic/

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Leaders listen up. Have you ever heard the improv Maxim? Yes. And? Well in my research, writing and speaking to audiences about the power of empathy, a magnet has pulled me to one notion that gets in the way of almost every dysfunctional workplace or societal conversation. Let me explain. Our brains seem to defend us yet often hold us back due to cognitive dissonance. I’ll link to an article in Psychology Today. But from that article, here’s the description. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people are averse to inconsistencies within their own minds. It offers one explanation for why people sometimes make an effort to adjust their thinking when their own thoughts, words or behaviors seem to clash with each other. But simply, it is less distressing to us to hold one single view in our thinking. We want this one thing to be true or this one other thing, but we refuse to believe they can possibly be both. We crave simplicity. But as we know, life is not always that simple. Others see things differently based on their own experiences, worldviews, philosophies and personalities. contradictions have bound, so call it either or thinking or binary thinking but any way you slice it. This approach can lead to division, stress, mental health crises, families being ripped apart the destruction of our planet, not to mention how it stifles creativity, innovation and collaboration at work. The either or approach to leadership and relationships is broken. It got us into our current mess. It’s not working for us, as leadership paradigm shift in the new era of work and as society demands more collaboration for its own survival, we are called to embrace what are called dialectics. And again, I will link to a great article in the show notes. But from that article, dialectics is a worldview that stresses that reality is made up of polarities. Two things, regardless of whether they are holy opposites can exist at the same time, simply dialectics is understanding that we can hold two seemingly contradictory things to be true at the same time, we’re very smart that way. So we can be empathetic and high performing. We can be compassionate and competitive, we can be kind and ambitious. We can be empathetic leaders and still make tough business decisions. We can care about our people and still hold our personal boundaries. We can be stewards of the environment and still reap financial rewards. We can turn to alternative energy and rescale our people, we can marry purpose with profit, and we can deliver great results and do right by our teams. And when we extrapolate this concept out to our lives outside of work, we can disagree and love each other, or at least respect each other. We can care deeply and have to let go. We can care about the collective and also prosper individually. We can enjoy nice things and still be good to the environment. We can be gentle, but still get our point across. We can guide behavior without abuse or shame. And we can both be right. Now the question is, how will we move forward? In our world and workplaces today? It no longer serves us to focus on either or thinking we must embrace both and think about all the innovations your organization is missing out on because your leaders are clinging to command and control leadership, never leaving the door open to new perspectives, insights, information or possibilities. We have the capacity to hold two things to be true at the same time. It just may take practice for your organization for our world. It’s time we embrace the power of both and abundant, inclusive both and thinking will get us out of our current dysfunction. Are you ready though? Are you ready to see what’s possible? I truly hope you are. Thank you so much for listening to this special hot take episode for January 2024 of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard, please share it with a friend or a colleague. And don’t forget to rate and review. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Both and take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Mara Glatzel: Why it’s Essential for High-Performers to Be “Needy”

“You’re so needy” – We say that like it’s an insult sometimes, but yes, yes you are needy. Because you’re human! And until we can learn to identify our needs, find the words to articulate them, and adjust our schedules and interactions on any given day to accommodate them, we are doomed to burn out and be more unproductive than we ever thought possible.

My guest today is Mara Glatzel, author of Needy: How to Advocate For Your Needs and Claim Your Sovereignty.

Today we discuss how high-achievers can identify and honor our own needs and how it helps us show up in the workplace as more empathetic leaders and better able to respond and perform iin healthy, creative ways. And how you can identify, center, and advocate for your needs in a world or workplace that is not aligned with your values Mara shares one way to be kind and generous to ourselves every day and talks about moving your relationship with yourself from a place of self-abandonment to self-partnership. Finally, we tackle how to balance your needs while avoiding selfishness – which is kind of a trick question, as you’ll learn!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Many people do not have a vocabulary for their needs – this is starting to shift, but it is still a work in progress.
We lead by example – we need to take care of ourselves to show our staff that it is okay to take care of themselves as well. Everyone will benefit as more people take care of themselves.
There is a multitude of directions our needs can take at any given time. With a little creativity, needs that feel out of reach, can be met within our current life restrictions.
When we start our day, we should check in with ourselves first, not check our calendar and decide who we are going to be based on those expectations.

“You are the vessel for everything you do. All of your work comes through you. If you’re not in good working order, that automatically impacts the work that you’re doing.” — Mara Glatzel

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About Mara Glatzel, Writer, Teacher + Podcast Host

Mara Glatzel, MSW (she/her) is an author, intuitive coach, and podcast host who helps humans stop abandoning themselves and start reclaiming their humanity through embracing their needs and honoring their natural energy rhythms. Her superpower is saying what you need to hear when you need to hear it and she is here to help you believe in yourself as much as she believes in you. Find out more at MaraGlatzel.com.

Connect with Mara Glatzel:

Website: https://www.maraglatzel.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/maraglatzel/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maraglatzel/

Book: Needy: How to Advocate For Your Needs and Claim Your Sovereignty https://www.maraglatzel.com/book/

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. You’re so needy. We say that like it’s an insult sometimes. But yes, yes, you are needy. I’m needy, because we’re human. And until we can learn to identify our needs, find the words to articulate them, and adjust our schedules and interactions on any given day. To accommodate them, we are doomed to burn out and be more unproductive than we ever thought possible. My guest today is Maura glatzel, author of MIDI, how to advocate for your needs and claim your sovereignty. She’s an author, intuitive coach, and podcast host who helps humans stop abandoning themselves and start reclaiming their humanity through embracing their needs, and honoring their natural energy rhythms. Today we discuss how high achievers can identify and honor our own needs, and how it helps us show up in the workplace as more empathetic leaders and better able to respond and perform in healthy creative ways. And how you can identify center and advocate for your needs. In a world or workplace that is not aligned with your values. Mara shares one way to be kind and generous to ourselves every day, and talks about moving your relationship with yourself from a place of self abandonment to self partnership. Finally, we tackle how to balance your needs while avoiding selfishness. Which is kind of a trick question. As you’ll learn. This was such a great episode full of useful insights for your work and life. Take a listen. Quick offer for you. Listen up all your marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, all of you trying to connect and engage with an audience to grow your impact in revenue. I’m all about strengthening empathy to achieve radical success. And this all started for me in my wheelhouse of marketing. See, I realized the key to attracting and engaging the right customers is all about understanding them seeing things from their point of view. Empathy is a marketers superpower if it’s wielded responsibly. So after running two successful real time cohorts, I now opening up my brand story breakthrough course as an on demand offering. Take it when you want how you want for as long as you want five modules of videos and playbooks designed to help you articulate your goals. Understand your customers define your different and land on your perfect brand story and marketing message. So you stand out and attract that perfect fit audience. Marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about empathy, elevating the truth of your story. And in this on demand course you’ll learn the exact steps that my past brand clients have gone through to craft a clear and compelling and consistent brand message that guides everything you do. You’ll walk away with a brand story strategy, ideal customer profiles, and even website and social media profile copy. Plus, with this on demand course you get access to weekly Friday office hours with me. Yep, ask questions, get feedback, share new memes discover new insights to help your business shine. It’s insanely cost effective and extremely valuable to your business and goals. So check out the details@bit.ly slash BSB course that’s bi T dot L y slash V S v course or Click the link in the show notes. See you on the other side. Hello, Mara, welcome to the empathy edge podcast. I am excited to have this talk to you about why it’s essential to be needy. If you want to be a strong high performer, welcome to the show. Thanks

Mara Glatzel 05:18

for having me. I love this topic. So I’m excited to dive in, clearly,

Maria Ross 05:22

and you know, just want to remind people again, the book that you wrote, that brought us together is called MIDI, how to advocate for your needs and claim your sovereignty. Now, we talked just before we started recording that a lot of my listeners are high performers, high achievers, many in the C suite, many aspiring to be in the C suite. So they might be a little uncomfortable with this squishy word of being needy. Right. So before we dive into that, tell us a little bit about your story and how you even got to this work. Who were the kinds of people you work with? Yeah.

Mara Glatzel 05:54

So the background piece to this is that I am one of these high performing people. And I was in my social work programs about 12 years ago and about to graduate and just really burning out significantly for the first time in my life and realizing I’m not able to continue doing things the way that I had which is putting all my needs on the backburner and performing at all costs. And I was an expert in what was expected of me and in an absolute novice in pretty much everything else like about what I wanted what I needed. And so this work is born out of that, over the course of the last 12 years, I have been working for myself and a private coaching practice, I do run your long programs and retreats and work with perfectionist, ambitious, human, I

Maria Ross 06:51

am a second year high

Mara Glatzel 06:52

performers, people who are really socialized into believing this is the track to success. And I mean success, not just in a professional capacity, but also in a relational capacity. You know, I find that, that my clients really struggle in both of these areas. And it’s like, can I bring my full self here? Or does bringing my full self here in danger, everything that I’ve built, which I think is such a big fear. And my work now really delves into needs, what we need, how to ask for it, I would say the word needy is complicated for many of us, and yet is something that we can and should reclaim in order to find that sweet spot between showing up in the world the way that we want to and also bringing our body along for the ride with us.

Maria Ross 07:43

Well, and I think it’s far easier for people to talk about needs than this concept of being needy because there’s a stigma around neediness, you’re clingy, you’re whiny, you’re not able to help yourself. That’s that’s the perception, the narrative that people have around the word needy. So how can we identify and honor our own needs? How does that? How does that help us show up in the workplace as strong leaders or strong performers? What are some ways that we can even start to go? Well, I don’t know what I need. How can we start identifying? Yeah, I

Mara Glatzel 08:20

think that many of us who are high performers are accustomed to looking outside of ourselves for those kinds of answers. And so we might listen to a lot of podcasts or read a lot of books, and I love I love books, I love podcasts. But when it comes to figuring out what you need, and how to ask for it. The first step is really to turn towards yourself and to build a relationship with yourself. Many of us are accustomed to performance and productivity, at the cost of being in relationship with ourselves. And we sort of falsely assume well, I’m with myself every day all day. But that’s a quantity over quality relationship. And the answers that we’re looking for when it comes to our needs come from inside of us and not from outside of us. And so I always recommend that people begin with starting the conversation. The great thing about needs is that many of us, for many of us, this is a transferable skill, we are acquainted with and accustomed to understanding other people’s needs, right? Because there are people sitting with us in a room around the table, we need to know where they are or how they are in order to adjust ourselves or proceed forward. And so it’s taking some of those skills and turning them on ourselves. asking ourselves genuinely, how are you doing right now? What do you need, right? Oh, by and large, we don’t have a vocabulary for needs. I think that this has started shifting over the last five years, which is fantastic. But that’s one of the main reasons that I wrote. MIDI is to give us more words for how to talk about what we need. And even what we’re allowed to need, because 10 years ago, if somebody asked me, Well, what do you need? I would have been stymied by that question. I would have thought, well, what’s on the table? What are we even taught on my art? What

Maria Ross 10:13

am I a lot of buffet? Yeah, what

Mara Glatzel 10:15

am I allowed to need? Because how I had been socialized was to see that in a really, really narrow scope, like, maybe I need some water, maybe I need some rest, maybe I actually think those things are optional. But certainly not asking for more than that. And so the conversation about needs really begins with being in relationship with yourself in these small ways. What do I need to eat? What do I want to eat for breakfast? I need to feel like I can contribute to the world in a way that’s meaningful, and also be the human that I am, you know, we have this all or nothing approach baked in. And we think, Well, you know, I have so many clients who say, Oh, well, this must work for you, because you work for yourself. But I work a nine to five job and so I can’t have needs there. And what I hear is that it is more difficult to have needs in the places where it feels as though in order to meet our need for safety, we can’t have any other needs. So when that comes to a professional capacity to keep a roof over my head, to keep earning this paycheck, I can’t have needs. And in between that all or nothing, all needs are no needs. There’s so much nuance in so much gray zone. And that really begins with turning towards yourself and getting curious about what you need, even before you might be able to figure out how to get those needs

Maria Ross 11:39

met? Well, and I think part of it is also the first step is actually admitting to yourself that you have the need. I know it took me decades before I could admit, yeah, what gives me job satisfaction is validation, and recognition. I used to bury that, because in my mind, that was too needy. That was too that I felt like that came from a place of insecurity. And it wasn’t that it was from a place of just that’s what lights me up that I, when I get that validation or their recognition, I know that I’m making a difference, which is a very different way to look at that. But I think sometimes we think our needs are not worthy, or we or we judge our own needs, and we don’t admit them even to ourselves. We’re like, I’m fine. I’m fine, I’m fine, right? I don’t I don’t need that other people might need that, but I don’t need that. And then we you know, burnout, we get resentful, we get cranky. All all of the things. So how can people How can high performing leaders, you know, if you’re talking to a CEO of a global company, who might say I don’t need anything right now I’ve got it i It’s handled? How could they start getting curious about what might they need to be an even better version of themselves?

Mara Glatzel 12:55

Yeah, so I like to think about it in the way that you are the vessel for everything that you do. You, you know, all of your work comes through you. And so if you’re not in good working order, that automatically impacts the work that you’re doing the people who are below you in the organization, in a multitude of ways. And this is an absolute importance. No, we may have been socialized to work, kind of at all costs at any cost and perform and put that at the top of the hierarchy when it comes to success. But in doing that, we are inherently creating an unsustainable and unstable ecosystem. Because if we’re at the top, and everything comes through us, and we are operating in this way that doesn’t have any space for our humanity, then we are setting ourselves up for burnout, for burning out our staff, we’re leading by example. And we’re showing them this is the one right way to get things done. This is the only acceptable way to show up here. And yet, we’re wondering why we have this staff turnover or why we have these mental health crises amongst our employees. And this isn’t to say that, you know, we completely reject the the way that our organization has been operating. But it’s not an enormous shift to bring in a sense that my energy is not stable 24/7 365 days a year, as a human being there are going to be fluctuations as it relates to my productivity, my capacity, my output. And the same is true for everybody. That works for me. So even just acknowledging that even just making space for that, or I’m moving a little bit more slowly today, or there are seasons during the year that I’m not as available, emotionally, intellectually and how to And we make that work for us, instead of seeing it as this huge liability, that idea that what is right and good is to be high vibration all of the time is harming us. And mentally, it really is okay to admit that that’s not true, because it’s not right. And human. Yeah, absolutely. And the more that we can bring in, especially when we’re at the top of a hierarchy in an organization, the more permission that we give the people who are working with and for us to do the same. And that impacts the health of the entire organization, which is good business. Exactly.

Maria Ross 15:40

That’s the point of all of this is, if you say you’re a high performer, and a high achiever, then you should care about this stuff. This isn’t just fluffy, woowoo, I don’t have time for this. This is the stuff this is the work that optimizes performance for people. And I hate to just bring it back to performance. But if that’s what a leader needs to hear, to make it get through the that this is worth spending time on, then that’s the language we need to talk, that’s where I try to get the empathetic towards the leaders in my audience and in my community is, if that’s how you need to hear about this great if that, if that’s what gets you to drink, you know, lead the horse to water, then fine, because you’re going to see the benefits of it when you start to pay attention to this. And as you were talking, it made me think about just how we even start to learn to listen to our bodies, right? In terms of working out, let’s say, you know, I know, when I work out, there’s days, I can go really hard. And then there’s days I go, you know, it’s just not that day, right? And I need to go easy today, or I need to like this morning, not work out today. I’ve got too much on my plate today. It’s going to be too, too much. And this is what I know, I kind of frame it in terms of like, what do I need today. And it took a long time, you know, I’m 50. Now it took a long time to get to that point where it was okay to ask myself what I need in order to perform at my highest potential for that day. And so I just want to encourage leaders to get into the practice every morning, of not only getting into their body of like, How does my body feel today? But how’s my soul today? How’s my brain? Am I Am I sluggish and slow? am I sad? Am I fired up? Like do that check in with yourself. So then you can say okay, so what do I need today? To make sure that I can still perform? And now how do you relate the physical and the the mental, the spiritual in terms of needs? Do you find that some folks are more amenable to opening the conversation about needs when they’re talking about their physical body? How does that play out in your work? Absolutely.

Mara Glatzel 17:57

And that is what we know, to talk about when we talk about needs. And that’s okay, because actually a lot of things kind of click into place if our physical bodies are in good working order. And so I recommend starting with whatever feels closest to you. Because the reality is in order to have the capacity to even be in conversation with ourselves, our physical needs, which stabilize our energy are prerequisites. Right? So are you drinking enough water? Are you maintaining stable blood sugar? Are you eating throughout the day? Are you eating breakfast? I’m a huge breakfast permanent? are you how are you sleeping? How are you moving your body? How are your work life boundaries, which I know is a hot topic. But by that I really mean are there spaces in your life where you are able where you allow yourself to disconnect and unplug even if it’s a small period of time. And so starting with our physical bodies, I think is close for many of us, and also freaky for many of us. Because toxic productivity culture and diet culture are really interwoven here. And so many of us have received a lot of mixed messages about what it means to listen to our bodies. And we may have been taught that our bodies are not to be listened to our hungers are not to be listened to. And so this is really being in relationship with yourself is a little bit counterculture in this way. But we also talk about self care all the time. And we have these listicles of this is what self care looks like. And from my perspective, self care. True Self Care is responsive and not prescriptive. And what that means is essentially what you’re saying, turning towards yourself and asking, What do I need today and doing that thing, instead of having this framework in our minds that we’re completely inflexible about You know, I have to have my perfect morning routine. And I have to do this and do this and do this and do this. Think of that instead is a menu of options that are available to you. But the most powerful and supportive self care is occurs when we turn towards ourselves and ask, you know, what do I need right now? And can I give myself that thing? Or can I give myself? What are the different options that are available for meeting that need today? Because, you know, I might need a sense of adventure that a trip to the Azores seems to be the only answer for but actually, you know, I could walk my dog on a different path today and find myself somewhere unknown to me that there is this spectrum for all of the needs that we have. And so when we experience a need, and many times we’re hyper focused on that one doorway, we want that need to walk through and we think or person, right, we have needs, and we think these can only be met through this one person. We forget that our needs are our responsibility. They, you know, live and end through us, even if we’re asking other we’re advocating for those needs in our relationships, we’re asking for other people to support us in meeting that need, that the more creative and open minded that we can be around, okay, well, how might it be possible to meet this need, who might be available? Maybe there are, there’s a multitude of directions that I could take this in, gives us that freedom and that autonomy, but ultimately, that self responsibility for our needs.

Maria Ross 21:41

Such good stuff, I mean, so much in there. I’d like to just ask a quick question, because you have talked about the steps to growing your relationship with yourself, from self abandonment to self partnership. Can you explain what that means? And how are there people out there who don’t even know that their relationship with themselves is coming from a place of self abandonment? And if so, how can they tell you no.

Mara Glatzel 22:12

Love laughing because I think most of us actually are in a relationship with ourselves that is riddled with self abandonment. And by that, I mean, we do not take ourselves into consideration. So a small example of this might be, I used to look at my account, wake up, look at my calendar for the day, look at my to do list and decide who and how I was, in order to fit my calendar. In order to fit my to do list. I was like, Well, this is who I have to be today. So it doesn’t matter how I actually am, I’m not even going to ask because I don’t care. I only care about being the person who has to show up to do X, Y, and Z thing. And then at the end of the day, those things didn’t happen as planned. I’m beating myself up, I’m feeling this sense of what’s wrong with me. And I’m not acknowledging that I set myself up by zooming or right past, talking to myself this morning, and write to Okay, well, this is the day, so make it work. And that in and of itself is an example of self abandonment that many of us operate in or, you know, we see our relationships and we think, Well, this is a relationship that I want to maintain. And this is who I need to be, in order to ensure that this relationship keeps going the way that I want it to be going doesn’t matter how I’m actually doing because belonging, the need for belonging is so close to the need for safety that we force ourselves into a direction without taking the time to genuinely acknowledge that we may be having feelings, we may be having a human experience, we may have needs that are incompatible with the relationship, which doesn’t mean the relationship is doomed. But it does mean that there are things for us to contend with. So for example, now, instead of looking at my to do list and that my schedule for the day, I take that look, I have little kids, so they are in my room in 2.2 seconds. So I take those 2.2 seconds to check in with myself and just see how am I doing today? How am I waking up? Am I more tired than usual? Do I feel dehydrated? Is my body sore? Am I anxious this morning? And that’s all information for me. It doesn’t mean that it necessarily changes the things on my schedule, but it does tell me okay, you know, I am going to need to close my laptop at five o’clock after everything’s done and really take a break. Or I’m going to need to plan on a certain kind of dinner or I’m going to need to plan on takeout because this day is really busy and I don’t want to think about dinner or I’m going to make sure that I have more water today, or I’m going to schedule a call with my therapist for next week. So I’m noticing how I’m feeling this morning, being responsive to yourself and thinking about how can I make it by which I mean, my life today as I anticipate it to go down, work in a way that is as sustainable and as kind to myself as possible? And

Maria Ross 25:24

is that what you mean by self partnership? Because you’re almost you’re almost coaching yourself at that point? Yeah,

Mara Glatzel 25:30

you’re just like, hey, hey, self, we are

Maria Ross 25:32

in this together this together totally Yeah,

Mara Glatzel 25:35

you know, if I want to be at this interview, and I want to bring the best version of myself possible, I’m going to make sure that I’ve eaten, I’m going to make sure that I drink some water, I’m going to make sure that I you know, I took a shower, because I was feeling a little just like fuzzy and I wanted to get more focused, those are the things that I needed in order to do what I wanted to do, which is to show up here with as much of myself as possible. So self partnership is really about working with yourself to achieve those goals that you have set,

Maria Ross 26:07

right. And what I want to point out here for my high achieving listeners, who are saying, you know, you’re again, you’re the CEO of a company, I wish I had that luxury, I have to worry about all these people and the numbers on the board and the meetings that I have, you can take those few minutes every morning, to check in with yourself, there is no excuse. You can do that, wherever you are. But the it’s, I think it’s the act of doing it, that so many high achievers make the excuse that they don’t have time for it. And yet, like you’re saying, your day is going to be, you know, again, I don’t want to do this at the false altar of productivity. But your day is going to be more productive if you take those few minutes to check in with yourself. And make sure that you create the day and create the space that you need to be where you are in that particular moment in time. That’s how you’re going to achieve the best version of yourself for that day, and be the leader that people need that day. So if you know, you’re checking in and you’re having a rough time this morning, maybe you do need to take a few meetings off your calendar, maybe this is not the day to, you know, you’re not gonna be able to change the board meeting. But maybe this is not the day to start a new project that you’re going to start, maybe this is not the day to, you know, have that difficult conversation with a colleague, maybe you do have to punt it to the next day. But you don’t know that unless you’re actually checking in with yourself. And then you can avoid those situations that become unproductive at best, and become contentious at worst. Yeah.

Mara Glatzel 27:48

And I think additionally to I am thinking about thickening the narrative about what success looks like to include your felt experience of that day. Mm hmm. And really reminding everybody who’s listening that no matter where you are in the hierarchy of an organization, that your felt experience of your life matters. And we have this belief that self care or attending to our needs has to look a certain way, maybe we do it on vacation or when we have wide swaths of time and our calendar and who has that, or a certain amount of money in our bank account and who has enough and I’m really talking about doing what we can with what we have, and removing the edges of perfectionism that come into how we take care of ourselves so that we’re making it work. And it may not look like the entirety as I said, I may not be zooming off to the Azores today as much as my heart desires to. But I am finding a new path to walk on with my dog during the walk that I’m already taking this morning. Because my dog needs to go out I’m already taking instead going on that walk that I always go on, maybe I’m gonna try something different. And so doing what we can with what we have is such powerful medicine because when we get into that pattern of postponing tending to our needs, there’s always going to be a reason to punt it out, there’s always going to be a reason to postpone it. And we’ll get to the end of our lives. And we’ll have been postponing it in entirety or we’ll get to a place of deep burnout and will wonder how did I get into this self care emergency. And many of us are operating in such a way that we only take care of ourselves when it is an emergency and we only kind of nurse ourselves back to health enough to get back in the game. Inevitably setting up this cycle of creating the need for that emergency self care to begin with,

Maria Ross 29:44

right? And what kind of a performer productive performer that is that make you if you’re constantly going to our cycle. So again, it’s like going back to okay if we need to speak in that language to ambitious people let speak in that language. You’re you’re going to continue to prove For and poorly, if you if you don’t take this time to, to address your needs and to help identify your needs. And given that I want to ask a provocative question here, how can people identify center and advocate for their needs in an environment that might not be aligned with their values? So, you know, in an environment, whether it’s the world, the whether it’s your country, whether it’s your workplace, how can we identify those needs that that are making me making us feel a certain way or making us react in certain ways that we’re starting to recognize are not healthy. But what do we do to start articulating and identifying that

Mara Glatzel 30:50

what we don’t do is take our needs into places that we can predict, are not friendly for those needs, we don’t start. We can assume, you know, we can sit here and say, Well, my needs don’t matter be because of so many variables that I can’t control. And the reality is, in a world riddled with structural oppression in a world that, you know, these measures of success and productivity often are not humane in nature, that the world doesn’t care about your needs. I think we can start there. And also, how are you committing to being a tender steward of your needs, regardless of what is happening in the world around you? As I was going to write needy, many people on my editorial staff wanted me to begin in the place of well, how do we bring our needs to the world around us? And there’s a lot of work that has to that is in and around that in the world now. What I really wanted to start with is how do we begin the conversation with ourselves so that we are allowing ourselves to have needs, we’re allowing ourselves to have references in everything, all of the micro decisions that we’re making over the course of the day. So starting with I am a person who has needs, I have needs to be fed, visibly nourished multiple times over the course of the day, many of us are not doing that many of us are, you know, drinking coffee until we can’t stand it anymore. And then, you know, inevitably succumbing to something that’s not nutritious and eating it while we’re running from one place to another. So even just that, in my choices that I am making, in my relationship with myself every day, am I drinking water, am I feeding myself, and I commit to going to bed at a certain time or attempting to every single night, starting with how you are treating yourself and taking responsibility for that, instead of starting with something that’s much higher test. As I said before, bringing your needs to the workplace a bump up against that, that need for safety, because you think I need this job in order to be safe, and that feels inherently very scary. might also feel like oh, well, I so many of my clients say to me, my I can talk to other people about my needs, but talking about my needs to my partner feels so scary. Well, again, the risk might be really high, you might be worried, well, if this person is unhappy with me, or if I’m asking for something that is impossible, as I can see it in my relationship, that’s really risky. That may feel much more risky than saying no to a colleague or to an acquaintance when they asked to meet for coffee when I don’t have time. So start where you are comfortable and build up from there. Because the more that you can authentically believe that you are allowed to have needs, the more confident you’re going to be in and also the more creative you’re going to be in thinking about how to get those needs met. Right? Because, you know, we have that that association of I need that needs to be met in this way. But the more we’re in communication with ourselves, the more that we can see, okay, well, there might be multiple avenues for that, and I’m open to an inflexible around it.

Maria Ross 34:22

So a couple of things in there that you mentioned. Well, number one, it’s the it’s the classic control what you can control, right and start with what you have agency over instead of just giving up on it because you can’t control the entire system or the world or the patriarchy or capitalism or just the culture of your company, you know, whatever it is, but also this idea of like, we also don’t have to take this big leap of announcing our needs necessarily, it’s like as long as we can identify them for the for ourselves. Maybe we manage the way we’re getting the work done and our particular day. No, you know, if you feel weird about nobody else has to know, like, just if that’s what you need, if you need a walk before you start work and you work from home, you don’t have to announce that to your whole team. Like, there’s things you can do, I think that’s the scary part for a lot of people is they have this image of, oh, if I’m needy, that means I come into work. And I have, you know, I gather everyone together. And I say, today, I’m feeling sluggish teams. So I’m going to do this that the other thing, just do it just, you make the time in your own schedule, or in the own way that you’re your own way that you’re working that day. It doesn’t have to be if that scares you. And you can tell me if you disagree with this. But it doesn’t have to be this big proclamation that you’re making people, I think that’s the part that scares a lot of leaders of like, Oh, I’m just going to make this a thing. Every day that I’m gonna have to like, tell my team where I am every day. Start with just admitting it to yourself, and structure your day accordingly. And nobody else has to know. They don’t, you know, not that you want to hide it. It’s not something to be embarrassed about. But, you know, sometimes no, is enough. You don’t have to know as an answer in and of itself. No, I can’t meet your for coffee. No, I’m going to need to move that meeting to tomorrow. No, I can’t meet till after 11 o’clock. And I don’t need to give any further explanation. But I can still go about my day. And so I think that’s a big hurdle for people is like thinking that they have to make this grand pronouncement about their needs. I’m curious what you think of that, because that’s kind of what I part of what I’m taking away. Not that we don’t want to be a model of expressing our needs. But it’s almost like if that’s the baby step you need to take.

Mara Glatzel 36:47

Can I take? Yeah, absolutely. And I would say that is not a baby step. That’s a pretty big step. You have to use but yeah, it did you yourself. Oh, yeah, that’s a that is a big step. And it’s really important. And this is why, you know, I wrote almost the entirety of needy about rebuilding that relationship and connection and self trust with yourself. Because before you can teach your team, how to honor their needs, you have to learn how to honor your own. And I think before even a step before that step is when we are acknowledging that we have needs is putting our experience into context, one way we can be really kind and generous to ourselves every single day is just to make sense of things. So nothing disturbs me more personally, than when we say, I don’t know why I’m so exhausted today. Right? We do ourselves harm. When we say I don’t know why I don’t know what’s wrong with me. So you know, if I were feeling tired this morning, I might say a to myself, I’m feeling exhausted today, because it was my partner’s birthday this weekend. And I was like a major birthday fairy, there was so much going on. And my four year old has started sleeping in our bed in the middle of the night randomly. So last night, she climbed in at about four o’clock and was kicking me in the back until the alarm went off. So I know why I’m tired. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to show up today. But just that piece of putting things into perspective for yourself. So you’re saying, you’re beginning with self compassion. It’s not an excuse. It’s an acknowledgement. I’m tired, because I have been, you know, I’m putting energy into my relationship. I’m putting energy into parenting my child and doing what I think is important at this stage of her life. And also, I’m a person who owns her own business and is working today. I am multiple things, and I can’t expect that I’m going to be able to do everything perfectly. And so on a after a weekend where I was putting a lot of energy in one direction, it only makes sense that I have less energy for this direction. That doesn’t mean that I won’t recoup by the end of the week, I probably will. That doesn’t mean I don’t show up today, I’m here. But just that peace of self compassion and acknowledgement of it’s not that I can’t bracket or whatever unkind thing I’m saying to myself, it’s just I am a person with a limited capacity. And I’ve been using that capacity in a multitude of ways. This bill yesterday, today, the last couple of days.

Maria Ross 39:31

I want to ask you one last question, because I know this is on the minds of people and maybe people listening to this episode, which is how can we and do we need to recognize the line between identifying our needs and when it starts to spill into quote unquote, selfish behavior. If people are concerned with if I start identifying my needs, I’m going to be perceived as selfish. Sure I’m going to actually become selfish. What advice would you give about even? Number one, whether they should even be worrying about that question? And number two, how can folks recognize that line of where their needs might be overtaking the work, or the needs of the team in a non productive way?

Mara Glatzel 40:22

I have never met a selfish person who is concerned with whether or not they’re selfish. So I think that by and large, if you’re worried about whether or not you’re selfish, you can safely say, probably not. Now, that said, this doesn’t mean that that acknowledging our needs doesn’t mean we’re gonna get all of our needs met. You know, people often ask me, Well, you know, you’re like, this needs person, right? All of your needs must be met all of the time, which I find Adorably hilarious, because I have a four year old and a seven year old, right, and a partner and a really wild puppy. And there’s a lot of things going on in my life, that I am making work, right. And so being in right relationship with myself means that I can be an honest part of the ecosystem. Because what’s not honest is to say, I don’t have any needs, and you know what, I’m gonna blow up later, everything’s gonna become a total mess, I’m gonna, you know, I’m gonna burn out, right? There is a selfishness. She’s sacrificing your needs and setting up inevitable burnout. As a high achiever. This was my first lesson, this was my first foray into self care was, Wow, that sucks. It really, really sucks to burnout, to have the rug pulled out from underneath you. And actually, if I care about my work, or if I care about my kids, or if I care about my relationship, I have to care about myself. Because otherwise, I’m setting things up so that other people are negatively impacted by me not prioritizing or acknowledging my needs.

Maria Ross 42:09

Mike drop. Thank you for that. Oh, my gosh, it’s such a great conversation. As with so many of my guests, I could talk to you for another two hours. But we’re out of time. So Maura, can you let folks know we’re gonna have all the links to your show notes? Sorry, links for you in our show notes. But can you tell people that might be listening on the go, where they can get in touch with you or find out about your work?

Mara Glatzel 42:33

Yeah, come hang out with me at Maura glatzel.com. That’s where you can find absolutely everything about me and my programs or come chat with me on Instagram. I’m often there.

Maria Ross 42:45

Love it. And again, we will have those links in the show notes. Mara, thank you so much for your time and insights today, it was really, I think it’s going to be not only helpful for me personally, but for many, many of our listeners. So thank you.

Mara Glatzel 42:57

Thanks for having me. This was fantastic. And thank you everyone for listening

Maria Ross 43:01

to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or colleague. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Minter Dial: How to Embed More Heart into AI

How will AI transform leadership and work? Can we “delegate empathy” to it? Can we have empathic AI that fills a need we all have as humans? Today, I discuss all of this and the role of empathy in AI with my special return guest Minter Dial author of Heartificial Empathy, Putting Heart into Business and Artificial Intelligence, the 2nd edition, just released in 2023 to include all the latest AI shenanigans and progress.

Minter shares his emotional leadership story about how 9/11 opened his eyes to his own priorities and how he wanted to show up as a leader. We discuss how to put heart into AI and three key questions leaders need to answer before investing in it. Minter shares use cases where AI can help us at a very human level, can help us create engaging customer experiences, and helps solve both the loneliness epidemic and the shortage of mental health professionals. We also muse on how AI is transforming leadership and work – and why we can’t expect perfection from a system if we can’t be perfect ourselves!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Not everything needs to be told to everybody. You can still have secrets and still be authentic, vulnerable, and full of integrity.
As humans, we are not perfect. We cannot create something and expect perfection from that without holding ourselves to the same level.
The AI will only be as good as what you put into it. It is about intentionality and working with the AI, not just expecting the AI to do everything perfectly on its own.

“People tend to hold AI up to a higher standard than we hold ourselves up to. I find this to be a problem. [If we are expecting perfection] we are never going to get it!” — Minter Dial

References Mentioned:

The Empathy Edge Podcast: Minter Dial: How Being Yourself Makes You a Better Leader
The Empathy Edge Podcast: Paul Marobella: Leading Through Crisis

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About Minter Dial, Professional Speaker, Author & Filmmaker

Minter Dial is an international professional speaker, elevator and a multiple award-winning author. Minter’s core career stint of 16 years was spent as a top executive at L’Oréal, where he was a member of the Worldwide Executive Committee for the Professional Products Division (PPD). Previously, he was MD of L’Oréal PPD Canada and CEO Worldwide for Redken. He’s the author of the WWII biography and documentary film, The Last Ring Home (2016) and three business books, Futureproof (FT Press 2017), You Lead (Kogan Page 2021), both of which won heralded Business Book Awards, and Heartificial Empathy, 2nd edition. He also runs three podcasts, Minter Dialogue in English and French, and The Joy of Padel.

Connect with Minter Dial:

Mydial LLP: minterdial.com

X: twitter.com/mdial

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/minterdial

Facebook: facebook.com/minterdial

Instagram: instagram.com/mdial

Threads: threads.com/mdial

Book: Heartificial Empathy, Putting Heart into Business and Artificial Intelligence (2nd Edition) DigitalProof Press 2023

Substack Newsletter: Dialogos, Fostering More Meaningful Conversations

Podcasts:

Minter Dialogue (in English and French)

The Joy of Padel

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Oh, will AI transform leadership and work? Can we delegate empathy to it? Can we have empathic AI that actually fills a need we all have as humans. Today I discuss all of this and the role of empathy in AI, with my special return guest mentor, dial, international speaker, author and filmmaker, and author of heart official empathy, putting heart into business and artificial intelligence. The second edition has just released in 2023 to include all the latest AI shenanigans and progress. Minter shares his emotional leadership story about how 911 opened his eyes to His own priorities, and how he wanted to show up as a leader. We discuss how to put heart into AI and three powerful questions company leaders need to answer before investing in it. Mentor shares three use cases where AI can help us at a very human level, and help us create engaging customer experiences solve both the loneliness epidemic and the shortage of mental health professionals. Finally, we muse on how AI is transforming leadership and work and why we can’t expect perfection from a system if we can’t be perfect ourselves. That many of AI’s flaws are a reflection of our own human flaws, but can invite long overdue discussion and examination rather than fear on issues of bias, negative employee and customer experiences and exclusivity. This was such an eye opening and thoughtful discussion. I hope you enjoy it. Quick offer for you. Listen up all you marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, all of you trying to connect and engage with an audience to grow your impact and revenue. I’m all about strengthening empathy to achieve radical success. And this all started for me in my wheelhouse of marketing. See, I realized the key to attracting and engaging the right customers is all about understanding them seeing things from their point of view. Empathy is a marketers superpower if it’s wielded responsibly. So after running too successful real time cohorts, I now opening up my brandstory breakthrough course as an on demand offering. Take it when you want how you want for as long as you want five modules of videos and playbooks designed to help you articulate your goals. Understand your customers, define your different and land on your perfect brand story and marketing message. So you stand out and attract that perfect fit audience. Marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about empathy, elevating the truth of your story. And in this on demand course you’ll learn the exact steps that my past brand clients have gone through to craft a clear and compelling and consistent brand message that guides everything you do. You’ll walk away with a brand story strategy, ideal customer profiles and even website and social media profile copy. Plus, with this on demand course you get access to weekly Friday office hours with me. Yep, ask questions, get feedback, share new memes discover new insights to help your business shine. It’s insanely cost of active and extremely valuable to your business and goals. So check out the details@bit.ly slash VSP course, that’s bi T dot L y slash V sb course, or click the link in the show notes. See you on the other side. Welcome, once again, my friend and mentor dial to the empathy edge podcast, it is so wonderful to have you back to talk about the release of your second edition of how artificial empathy how artificial intelligence, no artificial empathy putting heart into business and artificial intelligence, which could not be more timely right now. So welcome to the show.

Minter Dial 05:39

Hey, Maria, always great to hang with you love your energy.

Maria Ross 05:44

So tell us for folks that that missed your first episode on leading with who you are. And I will put a link to this in the show notes for people who missed that great episode. Tell us briefly about what happened in your work and your career that got you down this path where you’re really preaching the gospel on putting the heart back into business and leadership? Well,

Minter Dial 06:05

it starts with a realization that I, like many people was wearing a mosque. I was working at L’Oreal, and I was doing what I thought was good. But what I was also doing was doing some bad to me, from a health perspective, not a mental health perspective, but from a health perspective. And the nature of it was that I was doing what I thought was good within the the context and the wet the managerial framework that L’Oreal had. And then basically the the switch turned for me at 911, when, from my window, overlooking the Twin Towers, I saw the whole thing go down the second airplane flying all the way down into the tower. And like everybody has quite a memorable imprint. But for me, it was a very visceral one, because we went out the street, we had the smell, I also had four friends who were lost and dealing with that the angst of not finding bodies and, and just the feeling in Manhattan was so right. And then the and the trauma in the streets. Anyway. So this led me to think about well, what’s actually important in life is making shampoos that important. And I’m in there, it took me a while, but I then lent into this idea of being more myself. And then within that concepts of like self empathy, and developing better my empathy, because when you haven’t had the experience, it’s very hard to know how to be empathic. This was quite a revolutionary experience to go through so firsthand. And it led me to understand the benefits of empathy, just in the social circles, but also within business.

Maria Ross 07:52

And I know that was such a I mean, it was a hard time for everyone, but especially leaders who had to hold their own trauma, and process their own reactions to everything that was happening, but also being in charge of leading a group of people, where you also had to show up for them. And I’m going to link in the show notes. Another episode I did with Paul Mirabella, who is is a leader who spoke about leading through crises, and his first one was 911. In New York, the second was the financial crisis. And the third was COVID. And the lessons that he learned about what’s actually important when you’re trying to take care of people you’re trying to connect and engage while also processing your own trauma. And he echoed a thought you just stated, which is he learned the importance of self care, not from a selfish point of view, but in enabling him to be there for his people. And it sounds like that is also something that happened with you. But also this reevaluation of priorities. Yeah,

Minter Dial 08:57

well, it part of it, it was a stimulus that came from what I would characterize as poor examples of leadership in moments of crisis as in, directly above me, I still remember with great precision, the call that was made to me from the CEO, who said, from Paris aiming down in French, you have to come bass. And yeah, thanks for asking. I’m doing fine. Yeah, you could see all he was worried about was, how was I going to present the future of redkin my brand for the next three years, you know, how are we going to make the numbers I was essentially what he was worried about. And he says, Well, I explained matter of fact, we will. We have new planes flying out, will lead the way I’ll get a plane of failure. Okay. And so on the morning of the 15th of September, with one other person on the plane, I have four crew. I flew from a little piece in Islam and in LA man Long Island, and Trudeau liberals were on a plane. And I didn’t even need to show my passport. It was such a well protected plane. It was the first non military plane to fly over Manhattan. And, and at this point, I’m now preparing to do a speech. That’s two hours or 15 minutes long, that usually was delivered by my entire team, and I would look at it. So I had to learn this entire speech. And the way you do things at L’Oreal is you learn it rote. It’s a show. And you know, and I was used to doing this, that’s part of the business. That’s why I accepted. And I had to learn to do a two hour 15 minute speech in front of 550 people. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we had my four friends, their spouses in distress, my wife was sick. Manhattan was sick. And I’m running a brand by the way, redkin Fifth Avenue in New York City. And Fifth Avenue, New York City essentially meant that our DNA, or at least the imprint that we wanted to leave behind was a Manhattan feeling or a New York feeling. And to my campaigns in 2002, had the twin towers in the background. So if you imagine I had to call, you know, once I knew I had to go, I call my creative director, Chuck. And I said, Chuck, I need you to, we need to get the the Twin Towers out of the back round beads. Now, this is we’re talking on the 13th of September. And tough call. I mean, well, chuck, chuck refused to do it, he saw how NASA should let us Not over my dead body basically. And I understood that but I was the one who was gonna have to present this in Paris. And I, I was adamant that we I mean, I couldn’t reshoot them in time. And what I saw, I ended up having to call the retoucher who lived in Hoboken, New Jersey. And so this is nearby, obviously, hundreds of people from Hoboken were missing. And so obviously, the person I was calling would have known people. And so it was it was one of the most difficult calls I’ve ever made. It’s really It’s odd, just to retouch a photograph, but I called him and his name was John and say, John, can you do me a favor, I need you to make the Twin Towers invisible in the background. 45 seconds later, what floor it was just a messy, I still have goosebumps thinking about how miserable that was sounded like to Charlton. And anyway, so that, that’s to give you a little bit more texture to my experience that led me to feel that I wanted to be a little bit more real. And this mosque idea, which is something that’s going to be really true. Traveling through all of my new work. Now I’m not sure how, what how much of you, when

Maria Ross 12:43

we talk about authenticity, when we talk about being genuine, how much of you should you be bringing out? Because not everything you say not everything you feel not everything you are, should be revealed? And yet, can you still be authentic? So I’m really leaning into this idea. And I think it’s a healthy idea to understand that we have secrets that understand that not everything needs to be told to everybody, by GM, that’s even good for relationships and, and still feel your integrity is in business. Wow, very powerful. You published heart official empathy, putting heart into business and artificial empathy among the many business books, you’ve put out their way back. And you have just come out with a second edition in 2023, which, as I mentioned, could not be more timely given the hand wringing and opportunity of artificial intelligence. So I’d love for you to tell us how we I think the big one of the biggest conversations coming out about it is will we lose our humanity? will we will we lose that spark of creativity and inspiration? By relying on AI. And there’s one camp that talks about? Well, AI can help with all the rote things where we’re wasting all this mental energy on things we don’t need to. And we can take advantage of the body of work that’s been created to do things like research. And then there’s the other group that says, Oh, are they going to automate all customer service? Health care things where you need that human touch? And what will that do to people? So you have a particular viewpoint on how we can keep the heart put the heart into AI, and specifically in three areas. So tell us a little bit about your perspective on the AI revolution? And what are those ways that AI can actually reconnect us with our humaneness and benefit us?

Minter Dial 14:44

So I want to just start by talking about the fact that I, I started the first session 2018 And the second one isn’t 2220 23 In some ways, it kind of bookends the pandemic. Because pre pandemic things like empathy were and working from home were not a thing. Well, I mean, obviously, empathy is the thing, right? It wasn’t exactly top of mind all sudden, not

Maria Ross 15:08

in a business context now that you’re exactly and,

Minter Dial 15:11

and even just in society, we’ve got this divisiveness and we have had these elections and are in many countries, not just United States. And then, and then we go through the pandemic, and then people realize, oh, gosh, we can actually work from home, it’s a thing. And well, actually, now that you see people in their homes, where there’s privacy, personal issues, turns out that empathy becomes an interesting skill set to have through zoom, then we go to 2023 pandemic is, let’s say, hopefully, we can all agree over. And now we have a choice, whether we work from home, or work at the office. And the fact that it’s a choice is terribly difficult. Because you don’t have someone from above who mandates one or other, you need to negotiate that, for your business for your customers and with your employees. And that requires a whole level of empathy, which, under the conditions of tremendous economic strain, is not easy for leadership to do. And so that the need is, you say, is never never more important. So, as far as the the AI that what I love, the first premise needs to look at is, what is your intention? Before you bring in the AI? What are you trying to achieve? Is it linked to your strategy? Or is it just linked to saving money making cutting corners? Getting rid of the hassle of dealing with people? What is your intention? And the second point is what’s the business model that you’re really focusing on that alludes to the idea of value added and cost cutting? And and how do you reappropriate the money, where are you going to cut from to make space for the investments because you will need to invest in AI, you will need to bring in experts, and you’ll need to create massive data sets to allow for better learning. And the third thing is What is your ethical framework, which obviously speaks to the intentions of what you’re trying to achieve, but underlies and should underlie how you program and how you run your AI. So once that said, then I consider there are three different areas where empathic AI, or AI that has some semblance of humanity, some semblance of empathy, which is, you know, obviously, Google and many other Microsoft are are also working on. So it’s a I think it’s an important topic. And the way that I see it, there are three ways in business. There’s lots of ways that AI can be used, and even better empathic AI. The second way I like to think about it is with regard to the loneliness epidemic on our planet, especially in countries where the pyramid of age has flip flopped. And you have many, many, too much too many old people, for the younger people to take care of. We’ve got smaller and smaller as families. So we don’t have, you know, 10s of grandchildren now visiting grandparents in the retirement homes, and I think specifically of a place like Japan. And so I think that there’s an opportunity for companionship, through AI, I’d much rather be human, but in the absence of it, there could be a empathic companionship through AI. And there are definitely interesting examples of that. And the third one is with regard to therapy. And again, the issue is here, not, not only do we not listen to one another, there’s not enough therapists out there, the supply of therapists in many of the Western countries is just not up to the level of demand because mental health conditions have been spiraling higher and higher. Anxiety, depression, suicide, and we don’t have enough therapist. So I’ve been very keen to see certain initiatives that are with genuine intention, designing an empathic therapy through AI.

Maria Ross 19:16

Wow. Okay, so you’re saying there’s opportunities to apply empathy empathic AI, in business, companionship, and therapy? And do you think that those opportunities are getting lost in the hand wringing of Oh, no, they’re taking our jobs they’re taking over. Kids are going to learn how to cheat in college, all of the all of these negative aspects to it. Are people getting too caught up in the fear and the negativity or do you think that they truly are embracing the opportunity that it brings? Oh,

Minter Dial 19:53

I think the we as a race tend to, you know, pick up everything that’s fearful. Yeah, media That’s what sells. And it’s our limbic reaction. So people get much more focused on the negative side of things. And then in that, there’s a second piece, they tend to hold AI up to a higher standard that we hold ourselves up to. And I find I find this the problem, because then we’re like, well, we can’t do this until it’s perfect. Well, excuse me, Am I perfect? Do we do everything perfectly? If that’s what we’re expecting of AI, then we’re never gonna get it out. So to think that it’d be sure, unbiased work. And yet, we’re like, well, you ought to be well, you ought to be empathic, you ought to be perfect. I don’t need to be well, how does that ever work out?

Maria Ross 20:47

Well, it’s like the thing we talked about with leadership and culture. It’s just like, workplace culture is far from perfect in most places. Right now, you know, you mentioned earlier about this idea of working from home, you know, we’re seeing this backlash to boss ism, of No, the only way I know how to lead is if I can see all of you and make sure you’re actually doing your work. So I demand that you come back into the office, even though you found a better way to work that works for you. And you’re being incredibly productive and innovative, I don’t care because I want to see you in the office every day. And I feel I being the CEO or the the leader, I feel this is the best way for us to innovate and collaborate, I actually don’t care what you think. And so you know, just that’s such a great observation of like, we’re expecting this perfection, and purity of spirit from Ai, that we’re not even managing in the existing structures and systems we have right now. Exactly, I never heard it expressed that way. And it’s brilliant. Thank

Minter Dial 21:47

you. I learned it from also from observation in operational circumstances, because it’s not like empathy is a an unknown quantity, it’s, it’s difficult to define, and people have different ideas of it. But in one case, the the company that I was working with, decide decided that all of the beauty advisors who man or woman, the counters in the department stores needed to be empathic, because they will make our brand sound better to the customer. So these are independent people, the beauty advisors in this industry, and the and so we’re just yelling at them, telling them to be empathic, giving them no semblance of empathy, and telling them to do it. So as delegating empathy. In the same vein, we might be doing the same thing with delegating empathy into AI, or making our AI do things that we don’t even know how to do. And when you have that inconsistency, because the end of the day, he won’t be only AI, it’ll always be AI and humans. I mean, I suppose one day, there’ll be a pure AI business, you’re run by an AI, with AI and such, however, until that ridiculous time comes around, which may well be but in 100 year, is, we need to be congruent in the manner that we are within to the manner that we use AI. In other words, if as a human being this is who I am, are we as a culture, with our customers, make sure the AI has some congruence see, with the manner in which you operate within with your employees and with your customers. Otherwise, you start having this gap. And that gap is fatal. I mean, it means raised eyebrows, call it bullshit, or whatever. And and therefore, when ever you want to go into this, what is your intention, be real about who you are, how empathic you are, and don’t over estimate or yourself, we have this wildly positive bias idea of of we’re always better than we think we are.

Maria Ross 23:56

Do you think that some leaders or companies or brands think they’ll be able to leverage delegate, you mentioned it earlier, Delegate empathy for customers through AI, meaning, I’ve tried to train my customer service reps for years and years and years to be empathetic on the phone, we’re still getting complaints, we’re still getting negative customer satisfaction scores. Now there’s this thing AI where we can program it to say the right thing and do the right thing in the moment. Do you see that happening? Or people a little bit more savvy to the fact that you can’t completely outsource it that way?

Minter Dial 24:32

Well, they I don’t know how savvy they are. But any events, we don’t have empathic AI really happening. So you’re first of all, you’re still going to be doing human plus AI. And you’re gonna get shit out if you put shit in. So if, because what is the database, the data set you’re going to be using to do the learning? Well, each company is going to have to inform the data set is going to pull from a chat GPT or you know What are these larger new models, and then it’s going to adapt and that adaptations will be specific to your brand, your words, your customers, and that work? Well, that’s going to be a monumentally important piece of it. But if, if it comes from you, it’s going to be you. And if you aren’t empathic, and generally, if you don’t understand what empathy is top down, then whatever you’re encoding will inevitably have frailties. So what is your intention behind this AI you’re trying to do? And I want to just pull out a couple of examples how, in reality, this notion of empathy, which is still I would say, embryonic and AI, in terms of application, there is one example which is for customer care that you mentioned. And, and there are not just one, but the one I have seen, and had an opportunity to explore as digital genius. And what do they do, they work with customer care. So the API will identify a call coming in. And the call comes from this stub, or which is this, this client, this client has this profile. And in the past, this client is preferred to have very short interactions. And then if they’re short interactions, they give you a five star rating when they’re long and exploring and about a three star rating. So the AI can quickly inform the agent, and then say, and give a choice of for the safe four lines to reply. And they might be rated tagged with different empathy scores, the different efficiency scores, effectiveness, business money, you know, how much does this mean, you lose money if you do this, or whatever you want to program it in. And we digital genius allows for the customer care rep, to look at the four possibilities and pick one and say, Alright, this is the this is the message that stopped by the slot, my middle finger, this is the message that I’m going to choose and pops it in, doesn’t have to worry about typos, it’s ready and it goes out. And that type of work with AI, which is also happening, customer relationship management, where empathy is a specific component of the measurement to inform the agent or the marketer in this case, in second case was Pegasystems. And that’s what I see is really interesting. It’s going to be messy. Yeah, you’ve got to learn your way through it. And Unison

Maria Ross 27:22

relies on all that, it still relies on a human being making a choice at a certain point in the process.

Minter Dial 27:28

And there, you’re actually empowering the agent not taking them away. So you’ve talked about the rote elements. So typing out the four sentences, well, seeing them as interesting. So you can read them, you learn it, there’s notifications of ratings of of each of the questions, and then you don’t have to worry about typing errors, you just pick and choose drag and drop. And so I would characterize that is high level cognitive action, where you’re putting value on the intelligence of your individual. And they have opportunities to override to others exotic, that’s a great example, digital genius, they they work a number of companies, the one I got to look at it closely was with KLM.

Maria Ross 28:10

Interesting, really interesting. And, you know, your comments from earlier are just bubbling in my soul, this idea that, again, AI is pulling from existing datasets. So right now, I think our discomfort with it is it’s holding up a mirror to the things that are actually happening in the world. As one example, you know, all of the reports on the biases found in AI, for example, I forget which system was being evaluated, it referred to all doctors with male pronouns, and all nurses with female pronouns, right. But again, that’s a mirror of what our society is putting into this dataset. And the expectation that it’s going to be different than what’s already out there is a little bit naive. And I think it’s causing immense discomfort to people that were denying that those biases even exist in the world. Right now. They’re looking and they’re going, we told you all this, all this data, all this content, all of this media that people are consuming, is biased, like, how do we fix that problem? Right? So I think it’s it could be the optimist in me, says that AI could be a forcing mechanism for empathy of us finally realizing the impact of some of the challenges that we have with connecting and engaging with other people, because it is going to hold it’s going to shine that light in an undeniable way on this is the proof that that this is what’s coming out because these are the data sets that exist in the world. So now we can stop arguing about whether a problem is legitimate or not. And start focusing on how to improve it. He says AI is showing us what, what’s out there.

Minter Dial 30:07

So I would add that in the very programming of it, we’re going to be learning, like the mirror piece is actually sort of ongoing. Because if I right, so let’s just take empathy and AI, because there’s a lot of arguments as to what is empathy. And I think you like AI. Anyway, I define empathy having cognitive and affective. And these two are discrete, which means that you can have cognitive empathy, but not have affective empathy. And it doesn’t diminish it, per se, it would be best to have both, but it’s nice to have cognitive empathy. And the reason why that’s important is that you can’t program affective empathy

Maria Ross 30:48

now, which is emotional empathy for people that are not familiar with that it’s actually feeling with another person versus just imagining what their situation might be like.

Minter Dial 30:58

And you can imagine the feelings, right? And you can, you can detect the feelings actually probably better than humans sometimes can, which has been proven. So the the point that is discrete, allows you to say, well, let’s focus on cognitive empathy in AI. And that means that we then when we’re doing that, what does that actually mean? How do you score empathy, it even measure empathy, which is, you know, an ongoing debate, and those conversations and that encoding, because by the way, you have to go through programmers, who are generally empathy deficient or empathy challenge to be nicer. You need to recognize that whole process, starting with you inside, how are you in, in your company? Now we’re in this process of encoding it? What do we what does it actually mean, in my company for us to be empathic? And that process is, for me, the sort of organic dynamic method of of making progress in our company?

Maria Ross 31:57

Well, it’s forcing people to actually have the conversation that they never had to have before. About what are the views? Yeah,

Minter Dial 32:04

and what does that but the ever been at the boardroom, interesting conversation, holy smokes. Frightening,

Maria Ross 32:11

frightening. So as we wrap up, I would love to just get your futurist take on how you think AI might transform, leadership and work in terms of how we engage with each other, if at all.

Minter Dial 32:27

I’ll get a ticket, quick example. My daughter works at a company who names need to be said, but they want to hurt a time in timeout. And so the desire to control the hours and understand their activities if they’re typing on a keyboard. So you make all this AI to do all that kind of stuff. And, and really, it just comes that’s coming from them. I mean, that’s they come from a place of fear. They come from a place of desiring to control. And like your boss image you had earlier says, I will impose whether using the AI to monitor to control to police for compliance or employees. Yeah. And, and so yeah, well, if that’s what you’re up to, and that’s what you’re trying to do with AI a you, it’s your intentions, that’s the way you are, and you can make the AI pretty much do anything at that level. So I may, I think needs to be realistic about our humanity. And I think it’s part of the discussion, which is, like we say about bias, like we say about empathy with everybody. We can’t be empathic with everybody old. We can’t be idealistic about this idea. We can’t say that I have nobody that I hate. We have favorites, we have priorities. And the fact that means that it’s exclusionary. So we need to understand that in our world, we will have messy will have dark will have negative approaches. And then there are others who are better intentions. And what I systematically say when you evaluate the AI that’s being implemented with the desire for AI, think about what is your intention, and it’s congruent with who you are, to? What is the business model that you have? And how you’re going to ensure that over time, you you stick to that intention? And three, what’s your ethical framework? And that needs to be something that’s reasonably clear, reasonably short, and reasonably understood by everybody. And typically, we’re far from it in business right now, when we look at applying

Maria Ross 34:33

AI. Well, and again, what I’m, what I’m getting from, what you’re sharing with us today is this idea that it’s elevating these conversations in a way that people never thought to look at them before. So when we talk about how AI is transforming leadership and business, it’s kind of forcing us to have these crunchy conversations and think about things beyond just the numbers for now. next quarter, we’re thinking about afraid.

Minter Dial 35:01

I’m afraid it’s not forcing us. It’s an invitation to,

Maria Ross 35:06

but not a force. But let’s embed our albums a better way of phrasing it. Yeah,

Minter Dial 35:09

they’re forced to make the numbers they’re forced to deal with the issues that we have on hand. And these other conversations are almost luxury as far as the mentality of leadership is concerned. So my ation is reevaluate how you’re applying it. Look at these other questions, because once you do that, it will become I think, a stronger force of a company. You know, it’s a company your business strategy.

Maria Ross 35:33

I love it. Minter. Thank you so much. You as always, you know, I could talk to you for another two hours, but we’re at time, we will have all of your links in the show notes, especially to the new edition of artificial empathy. And your substack de Loggos de Lobo Gallegos. Yeah, those fostering more meaningful conversations. And you’ve got a few podcasts we’ll put all the links to all the things that our mentor dial but for folks on the go right now who might be exercising or walking, where is one place they can go to check things out with you.

Minter Dial 36:06

The easiest, is the old hub, and mentor dial.com where I have all my podcasts, my blog posts, my books, my fun, like my my nuisances, my my silliness. It’s, I

Maria Ross 36:19

love it. I love it so much. Thank you so much for your time today and your insights. It’s always a pleasure to connect with you. Big hug to you, Maria. Thank

Minter Dial 36:27

you for having me on. And thank you

Maria Ross 36:28

everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you’ve heard you know what to do, please rate review and share with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Trent Griffin-Braaf: The Benefits and Myths of Hiring Formerly Incarcerated People

When you think about your company’s DEI efforts, are formerly incarcerated people in that equation? Probably not, right? Most companies shy away from hiring returning citizens for fear they can’t be trusted, will not deliver value, or won’t show up. And you would be wrong.

Today, Trent Griffin-Braaf shares his story, breaks apart negative stereotypes, and tells us about the many benefits of hiring such individuals. Trent explains how he saw transportation as a way to fight poverty and create more equity in employment, housing, and education in areas that need the most support.

We talk about the challenges faced by formerly incarcerated individuals in reintegrating into society and he shares the often overlooked impact of incarceration on mental health. But most importantly, Trent shares how your organization can support returning citizens in the workplace, what programs to put in place, and how to source this untapped, extremely loyal, talent pool, and why employing such individuals benefits your business and your community.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Transportation opens up many opportunities and paths for individuals to gain further education, increase pay opportunities, gain medical access, and, in many other ways, help to reduce poverty.
For mental health, you need to understand what you need to show up – everyone is different and will have a different recharge. There is strength in that.
Every person should live their life like a business – with mission statements, values, and ethics.

“Organizations need to identify what’s the real risk with certain crimes, then eliminate certain crimes if needed. But for most organizations, there should be no reason why they can’t work with you.”

— Trent Griffin-Braaf

Episode References:

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About Trent Griffin-Braaf, Founder & CEO, Tech Valley Shuttle

Trent Griffin-Braaf is the CEO and Founder of Tech Valley Shuttle. He has grown his business from a hotel-based transportation agency in 2016 to a fully customizable company specializing in workforce transportation. He now owns two of the larger Black-owned businesses in the Capital Region. Trent has been highlighted in Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Forbes 1000, and the New York Times for his work. He was also recently named the 2023 SBA Upstate NY Small Business Person of the Year for expanding his ride services during the pandemic, filling a critical community need. Trent was formerly incarcerated, and since his release, he has dedicated his career to creating opportunities for others in the same position through Tech Valley Shuttle. His ultimate goal is to be a resource for others by shifting how organizations perceive and hire from underrepresented groups.

Connect with Trent Griffin-Braaf:

Website: techvalleyshuttle.com & trentgriffinbraaf.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/trentgb

Instagram: instagram.com/iamtrentgriffinbraaf

X: twitter.com/TechValeyShutle

Facebook: facebook.com/techvalleyshuttle

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Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

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X: @redslice

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. When you think about your company’s DEI efforts, where are formerly incarcerated people in that equation, probably not present, right. Most companies shy away from hiring what are sometimes called returning citizens for fear they can’t be trusted, won’t deliver value or won’t show up. And you would be wrong. Wrong Wrong. Today, my guest, Trent Griffin, brah, CEO and founder of tech Valley shuttle and a formerly incarcerated person himself, shares his amazing story and breaks apart negative stereotypes. telling us about the many benefits of hiring such individuals. Trent explains how he saw transportation as a way to fight poverty and create more equity and employment, housing and education in areas that need it the most. I was amazed to connect those dots in a way I never had before. Trent has grown his business from a hotel based transportation agency in 2016. To a fully customizable company specializing in workforce transportation. He now owns two of the larger black owned businesses in the capital region. Trent has been highlighted in Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Forbes 1000, and the New York Times for his work. He was also recently named the 2023 SBA, upstate New York Small Business Person of the Year for expanding his ride services during the pandemic, filling a critical community need. Since his release, Trent has dedicated his career to creating opportunities for others in the same position through tech Valley shuttle. His ultimate goal is to be a resource for others by shifting how organizations perceive and hire from underrepresented groups. Today we talk about the challenges faced by formerly incarcerated individuals in reintegrating into society. And he shares the often overlooked impact of incarceration on mental health, including increased rates of depression, anxiety, post traumatic stress disorder and substance abuse. But most importantly, trend shares how your organization and employees can support returning citizens in the workplace, what programs to put in place, and how to source this untapped and extremely loyal talent pool, leading to higher retention rates, performance and brand goodwill. And why employing such individuals, benefits your business and your community. Take a listen. Quick offer for you. Listen up all your marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, all of you trying to connect and engage with an audience to grow your impact and revenue. I’m all about strengthening empathy to achieve radical success. And this all started for me in my wheelhouse of marketing. See, I realized the key to attracting and engaging the right customers is all about understanding them seeing things from their point of view. Empathy is a marketers superpower if it’s wielded responsibly. So after running two successful real time cohorts, I now opening up my brand story breakthrough course as an on demand offering. Take it when you want how you want for as long as you want five modules of videos and playbooks designed to help you articulate your goals. Understand your customers, define your different and land on your perfect brand story and marketing message. So you stand out and attract that perfect fit audience. Marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about empathy, elevating the truth of your story. And in this on demand course, you’ll learn the exact steps that my past brand clients have gone through to craft a clear and compelling and consistent brand message that guides everything you do. You’ll walk away with a brand story, strategy, ideal customer profiles, and even website and social media profile copy. Plus, with this on demand course, you get access to weekly Friday office hours with me. Yep, ask questions, get feedback, share new memes, discover new insights to help your business shine. It’s insanely cost effective and extremely valuable to your business and goals. So check out the details@bit.ly slash VSP course, that’s bi T dot L y slash V S v course, or click the link in the show notes. See you on the other side. Welcome Trent Griffin brah to the empathy edge podcast. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation with you. Thanks for coming on.

Trent Griffin-Braaf 06:03

No, thank you for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this as well.

Maria Ross 06:08

So you know, we just heard a little bit about your bio, you are amazing CEO and founder of tech Valley shuttle, basically, serial entrepreneur, and a formerly incarcerated person yourself. So tell us a little bit about your story and how you came to this work. Gotcha.

Trent Griffin-Braaf 06:25

So I’ll give you the footnotes of my story. And so essentially, I’m someone who, you know, I was born in New York City, the Bronx, parents were separated. So I split time between the Bronx and Harlem. At a young age, my father passed away. So around nine years old, I moved upstate New York to Albany. But essentially, I grew up in a single parent household, there was a lot of there was the abuse in the household, there was drug addiction in the household. And so a lot of barriers that a lot of people who come from similar neighborhoods and backgrounds experienced following High School, which I barely pass, the only reason I probably pass because I play basketball, we got a really good team. And so I can’t really tell, but I’m pretty high. I’m gonna shoot her on the totem pole. And so I realized quickly, I wasn’t going to the NBA. And but after high school, I ended up going to college for one year didn’t take education too serious. Like I said, it was all about basketball for me and networking about the wrong networking. And so after I failed out of college, I first semester, I ended up coming back home. And that’s kind of where my journey and my story begins, in terms of me starting to run with the role of crowds and more than anything, making bad decisions for myself. And so that looked like me starting to sell drugs, I did it for maybe a year and some change. And then here I am in front of a judge being sentenced to 12 years in prison, and never had a speeding ticket before never had really any issues with the law at all. And I ended up getting a 12 year sentence of that 12 year sentence, I ended up doing about three and a half years in prison, another three years on parole probation. And so I gave him about six, seven years of my life in that capacity. While I was incarcerated I was I was fortunate enough to take college that Maris college, that was the first time I had a light bulb moment that you know, if I applied myself in school, I guess I was I am smart, like the teachers would say, and so and being the top of the class for those incarcerated or those who were actually at Maris that was like, Okay, I could do this. And so from that moment on, I’ve always had the yearning to learn more and, and I made a commitment to myself to become a forever learner. During that journey of becoming a forever learner. Naturally, I was released from prison looking to better my life. And it was hard. It was tough struggle with housing at the time, my girlfriend at the time wife today, she lived in housing upon my release, I wasn’t even able to go there. Because I had a felony on my record. I wanted to go back to school once I was released, but I couldn’t tap into any of the financials because I had a felony on my record. And so ultimately, what that looked like was be just finding a temp job. Uh huh. That was, that was the that’s what I ended up doing for probably about a good year following release. And then essentially, one day I get a break it my huge break came in the form of cleaning toilets for a Marriott part time. And I took that at my new opportunity. And ultimately, I worked my way up to becoming a general manager and in the hotel world, dealt a lot of systems and how to use computers and you know, utilize a new system to train others. And so what that looked like was, what that look like was, as I grew up the corporate ladder once I became a general manager in my market, they were opening a casino rivers Casino. And so I used my network at that point, I had sat on the hospitality board people in the hotel world knew me So we all talked about how bad the transportation was. This is before we were left rideshare. Yeah, it so it was just the taxis. And the one thing we all came in agreement was, I could do it any worse than it was already happening.

Maria Ross 10:15

It could only go up, right? It only go up

Trent Griffin-Braaf 10:17

from here, guys. And so though I had six hotels, six or nine hotels, I think it was six that said they would agree if I started a service to use us. I was thinking, all right, well, I’ll create tech Valley shuttle hospitality shuttle. And the goal was to just work with hotels in our in our area, because that was really the only industry I knew. But I knew from a young age, I was a natural hustler. And so I wanted to do something for myself. And I was able to look at year over year p&l reports for the hotel, and I’m like, I’m helping make other families millions. When I went to jail, she said pennies. And now I have some tangible skills, there’s an actual need for this. And if I do this, right, maybe I could do the same for being my family. And so I think it was, it was December 15 2016, I formed tech Valley hospitality shuttle LLC. And from there, you know, got into the hotel world. And we ended up working with 4050 Hotels within the first year, two years. But during that same time, I wanted to learn my craft, just like I learned the hotel industry, it was tough for me to learn transportation. And so even to this day, I still take 15 minutes a day to just read about transportation, let it be vehicle airplanes, anything. And but in doing so I also started to sit on transportation boards and committees locally. And we got an annual report. And I remember this had to be probably 2018, I got the first annual report for the capital region. And that was the first time in my life that I identified that poverty and transportation went hand in hand. And so from 2018, and it started to become on my radar workforce transport workforce needed transportation, people struggled, there was there’s transportation, desert deserts, there were food deserts. And, you know, I started to see how this work that I started to do more of your research. And, you know, we’re all we’re all really familiar with what redlining is, but one thing people never really think about is how public transportation supported redlining, it was a whole system that was built here. So I started to put set my intention to oh, well, what can we do in that kind of space that would benefit the community. And so that’s where we really started to dive into. And so around 2080, maybe even 2019, our mission changed, and our mission became to combat poverty to transportation solutions. And that’s literally what we do today. Oh, we were able to survive to COVID, I started another logistic company. During that time, I got a contract with Amazon. And then but on the tech Valley side of thing, we really started to focus on services that reduce recidivism. Now we do services that three times a year we do free community prison shuttles, because with each visit someone incarcerated receives it reduces the rate of return to jail by 12%, we started to do services that help individuals who live in food deserts, in which either we would bring food to those areas, or we would actually transport individuals to and from, we also do services that for non emergency medical transportation, and we’re currently in a pilot program, showing up hopefully, Medicaid, why they need to expand the services outside of just doctor’s appointments. But we’re getting people to work, to gyms, mass, you know, AAA meetings, all sorts of things that you know, help people holistically instead of just going to one from a doctor. And then we also do services that address the school to prison pipeline. And so we get youth from the inner cities, and we bring them to charter schools that tend to have higher graduation rates, we also do a lot of college tours, exposing them to more than just their their few block radius. And then our catalyst program is what we call driven to work. We ultimately work with employers, and we help them get associates to and from work. And oftentimes, many of these associates are formerly incarcerated individuals or individuals who just lack transportation, but they’re looking for higher earning jobs. And we’re able to support and help them get to those higher earning jobs. And so so our our heart lies into in the community. And that’s some of the work that we’re doing at Tech Valley shuttle on the transportation side,

Maria Ross 14:15

I love Oh, my gosh, your story is amazing. And I just have, I have so much empathy, even though I’ve never been through those experiences of what you’re talking about, and the way that you’ve pointed out so many of these hidden issues in getting out of poverty and getting out of like, a less than ideal situation. How you’ve actually tracked it back to transportation is just genius, because I don’t think we ever look at that as a solution to those big macro problems. And I love when I have guests like you on the show that are working on this one very specific thing and yet exponentially the impact of that, on solving those prices. problems is not what you would think it would be correct. And so, you know, you’ve chosen to, to find a way through transportation, getting people from point A to point B and what that means for people’s opportunities and for their income potential for their ability to, you know, stay out of crime, for their ability to get education like it. I love when people are able to find that little tangential nugget that no one’s thinking about when they think about those problems. They’re thinking, you know, for example, like educational access, they’re thinking about scholarships, they’re thinking about, you know, going into high school, they’re thinking about, they’re thinking, very tunnel vision about the issue. And it’s like, But wait, there’s all these other like snags in the process, these hoops that people have to jump through, and you’re choosing to deal with that problem and help solve that problem and make the community better through this one very specific, very concrete thing that you can do. And I just, I’m kind of fan girling you right now, because I, I love it. I love that you just you when people find that little magic thing that nobody else is looking at, because I as you’re talking, and I’m sure as folks listening to the podcast, they’re thinking, Well, I never realized that’s a problem. And that’s a problem. And that’s a problem. And it all has to do with transportation,

Trent Griffin-Braaf 16:22

transportation. That’s right. Yeah, that’s true. So true. So true.

Maria Ross 16:25

So I love the story about how you, you got to where you are now. And I also just want to highlight this, this thing you mentioned about your light bulb moment. And this idea that access to college, when you’re incarcerated and access to learning is part of rehabilitation, but not even rehabilitation, just opportunity development, like what good does it do to, quote unquote, punish people for crimes, and not help them better themselves, and the fact that you had this lightbulb moment of, you know, people, people, there’s people that complain about providing college education to incarcerated people, they don’t deserve it, yada, yada, yada. So what’s the alternative? Do you want people to lead better lives and be contributing members to society? Or don’t you? Right? So I knew that, right. And you explain, you know, you’ve talked about, we’ve talked about formerly incarcerated individuals, sometimes they’re referred to as you’ve educated me as returning citizens. You talked a little bit about the barriers they face and the challenges that they face reintegrating into society. But I know that you talk about particularly around mental health and well being you kind of touched on this, can you illuminate us on on those issues and how they impact all of us, not just the incarcerated individual?

Trent Griffin-Braaf 17:46

Well, I think and I’m really happy that we’re in a place now where people are discussing mental health. You know, I know growing up, it was something that you never even talked about, like it was just, you just, you didn’t even talk about it. Like honestly, it wasn’t even at that, oh, it was shameful. Correct? Correct. Correct. I agree. And so now that we all are in an enlightened space, where we understand the importance of having a clear mind, you know, I’m just happy and so but for people who’ve been incarcerated, like if you really think about the trauma that go with that, like you literally, at some point, you were locked behind a gate that you could not get out. And then even when you were released from that gate, you were still locked inside of facility that you could not get out of. I could even leave it on me my first daughter, she was birth while I was incarcerated. And so you know, the first time I held my daughter was at on a visiting floor at a county jail. And you know, the trauma of when the visit was over, after the 30 minutes or hour, whatever it made, it might have been, I had to then hand my daughter off, and I couldn’t see her again until the next visit, or the next time and then so, like traumas like that, or I lost my grandmother while I was incarcerated, I had to go to her funeral. Shane did Jack shackled. And I remember even the CEO said, like, don’t try anything funny, because there’ll be two funerals today. So you know, right, you know, and so, that kind of trauma. Then I remember the first day I was incarcerated, and I was in the prison and walking through the tunnels and the chief, he gave a speech and he told me, he thanked all of us for coming. He said, You know, we’ve helped put his children through college and he knows that the majority of us will be back again for another visit, and he just wants to welcome us back. And so Wow, these are like real things that I’ve seen just through that experience that I know there’s a lot worse there’s people who were put in a cage for 24 hour 23 One where they never get out of there. So except for one hour of rec time inside of another cell. It’s so there’s just so many traumas that comes from that experience. And then if you probably tack on the fact that these same individuals have a The traumas just like all of us in life coming up, there’s just traumas we have, keep it back on myself, you know, I lost my father at a young age trauma. Parents battled addiction issues, trauma, you know, I seen abuse take place in their in their household trauma. So these are additional charges that you’re stacking on these other traumas. And so if you never figure out how to keep your mental, right, I see so many people, I have close friends who have been incarcerated, dealt with those traumas came home and die. And I know it was it was trauma based I know it was just from the experiences they’ve had. And so or I believe that my heart and so so to be at a space now we’re talking about mental health. And like for me, I’ve learned that for me, for my mental health, I need it to recharge, I operate multiple businesses, I’m responsible for a lot of people a lot of things. And so there’s just certain things standards that I’ve put in my life, like, you know, after five o’clock, I’ll give my old from five in the morning to five at night. I’m here for everybody, my team, I’ll give my all. But after five, I need to be able to detach, it’d be able to also be a Father and to be a son and to be a brother and to be a husband. And so you know, I’ve learned that through my life. And so that’s part of my recharge. So don’t contact me after five unless it’s something serious, because that’s the only way I could show up again tomorrow. I know I need to be outdoors. I’m a nature person. So I need to be able to sit outside and at least one day a week, just be able to sit outside for a couple hours to get my thoughts together. All right, I’ve learned the value of meditation, something that also going to help along with mental health. I remember growing up and the people who meditate are like weirdos. And so you know, but now we know that you know that there’s strength in that. And so yeah, for me, it’s all about mental health. And I tell people all the time, I couldn’t show up and be the person I was if my mental first with it, right. And I believe because I’ve learned what works for me. I always encourage others, you got to learn what works for you. Because we’re all different. We’re all made different. But you need to figure out what your recharges and, you know, an analogy I usually give is, we all have what it is. So where and we know how to charge these right? Yeah. But at the same time, do you know what charges you like? What do you need to charge yourself? And I think especially for returning citizens, that’s a very, very important lesson, because you can’t show up and give your best if your mental isn’t right. And you have to be able to get past some of the traumas, or Oh, still repeat themselves in your lives. And so but the only way you could do that is they were clear by and

Maria Ross 22:26

well, you know, people talk about people in prison. And they they think, oh, that we don’t want to coddle them because they need to be punished for what they’ve done. And you know, they would lose their minds if you brought in yoga and meditation to prisons, when maybe they don’t have access to it on the outside. But again, if the goal is to rehabilitate, and to help someone make different choices and be a productive member of society, again, it’s costing us more not providing those types of services to formerly incarcerated people or people while they’re being incarcerated. It’s not a luxury. It’s a necessity. It’s

Trent Griffin-Braaf 23:05

kind of silly when people say that, like, you know, like, some would live in the Bay Area somewhere, you know, relax it all day. Yeah, reality is nothing like that. It’s a lot of hardship. It’s a lot of stuff that you never hear about, even the stories that I disclosed about my experiences. wouldn’t hear that unless you do someone who’s been there who could share that. And although what it’s not, it wasn’t me beat up by anybody while I was there, I was mentally beat up while I was there. And you know, but I’ve been able to identify and decompress from that and figure out, you know, understanding, no, that’s not right. That’s not how it’s supposed to be right. But how do I get past that? And, you know, I think it’s important that we all figure out how to get past that who’s been there. So we can then share our troops as well as continue to grow and develop.

Maria Ross 23:51

So let’s talk about for the leaders listening for folks in, you know, the C suite or HR, let’s talk about businesses. And you know, again, the places with the jobs for people. And you mentioned earlier, when you’re sharing your story, how hard it is to get financing, how hard it is to get housing, how hard it is to get employment, when you’ve got this on your record, even though you have paid your debt to society. It’s still it’s still a prison. Right? So what can businesses do to have empathy and support returning citizens? And what can that do for their business to be able to, to open the pipeline of talent, to be able to, you know, to be okay with trusting those individuals to come work for them? What kinds of things can they put in place? You’ve built a business and I, I would assume you are supporting formerly incarcerated people as well, of course, but what can other businesses do that are like, Oh, I don’t know. Like, how do we, you know, as part of the background check, we check if they’ve had a felony or we check if they’ve been in jail. So what do you say to that?

Trent Griffin-Braaf 24:55

So I say a couple of things first, if you allow me one sec, I want to So a little bit of information that is relevant for other leaders. I am the SBA Small Business Person of the Year for New York State upstate for 2023. I’ve been awarded a leader a diversity, equity inclusion for a hired habits and our development of individuals within our org. I have the first business upstate New York to ever be named one of the best places to work by an African American. Amen. Even I always like to jokingly say by openly known felon, I’ve been featured in Forbes I have been featured in Sherm, I’ve been, I’ve spoken for 1200 representatives across the nation for United States Department of Labor’s et cetera, et cetera, and Bloomberg, etc, etc. So I share all of that, just to say that I’m not just speaking it, I’m living it. And I’ve been able to been stamped by a lot of verified sources, who know the work that we’re putting in is legit and real. So my advice now is I work with a lot of organizations on how they could build cultures that are supportive of returning citizen. And there’s a lot of things that organizations could do to build this culture. And I think any leader who’s listening knows one thing for certain someone who has more resources and more access to capital can recreate your business, the one thing that they could never recreate is your culture. And so your culture has to be sacred, and you have to guard it, and so on. So we teach other organizations that what we’ve done at Tech Valley chateaux is we’ve created this roadmap to success program. And ultimately, we help individuals become the CEOs of their lives, and teach them how to operate their lives, like a successful CEO operates their business. And so one, some things that I clearly identified are, there’s a detachment a lot of individuals who have been from underserved populations in general, they don’t understand or even know that every business has a mission statement has a mission and what they do, every business has values, and it has core values. Every business has an organizational chart, and that chart changes and moves. And so what we do is we show individuals that we work with, we help them identify what’s your mission in life? What’s your mission statement? What’s your values? What are the values you live by, are what are values you will not, you know, ever cross again, because if not having these values and not having these missions are what got us in prison in the first place. And so we help skill people up in that regard, and then make the connection to organizations that we’re working with, that are now built into culture. And so as as organizations can do, some of the things they could do is they could remove the terminology, have you ever been convicted of a felon before from application, they should honestly check the boxes about to go away? Anyway. So get ahead of that and just remove that, from your question altogether shouldn’t even be relevant. I think organizations need to identify, there are certain crimes that you wouldn’t allow in your organization. In, for instance, you know, maybe a sex offender, and I’ll keep it on us. We do services around with that include youth in schools. So naturally, that’s something that we just can’t do, because of the line of business where it just like I would imagine a bank wouldn’t want someone who’s committed fraud or embezzlement, correct? It’s so I think organizations need to really identify what’s the real risk associated with certain crimes, and then eliminate certain certain crimes altogether, that’s fine. But then everyone else, there should be no question, there should be no reason why they can’t work with you. Additionally, I think that organizations need to find or develop someone on their team who could be the champion of, of this population, returning citizens. And so I always suggest that organizations create employment resource groups in in those groups don’t let it be led by someone who’s actually walking the walk, who’s been there, but who’s actually also a high performer in your organization, that individual now can become a mentor as someone that other people in the organization could see themselves in and understand that there’s opportunities for growth. Well,

Maria Ross 29:09

and also they become a model for other people in the organization to see that this it’s not scary. This is this person is delivering and operating just like you, they’re just like you and me, agree are just trying to do their best work. So they you know, that whole thing about proximity creates empathy. When you actually know someone in certain situations or in certain groups, you have a different relationship to that group.

Trent Griffin-Braaf 29:35

I agree wholeheartedly, I agree. And they become a they become a messenger, but a message adjusted messenger in that regard. And they also helped remove the biases and the stigmas around that. So I agree wholeheartedly. But I think some of the things that organizations can do is one be mindful of what you’re looking to do. I hear all the time. I don’t know how to find people or I don’t know how to pick The good ones is what I had a couple of CEOs tell me yeah, that I mentioned it, that’s kind of crazy to say one, because there’s never any group of people that, you know, there’s just a particular good one.

Maria Ross 30:12

There’s lots of people that haven’t been in jail that I never want to work with. Again, it’s rare.

Trent Griffin-Braaf 30:17

It’s, it’s so you know, I think is being mindful. But also just understanding that, make it make it a goal, we want a goal of doing this and then work towards that goal. I also think that organizations need, they should look into what’s out there. There’s all sorts of resources like free bond and programs by the Feds tax incentives by the Fed. And these are real things that are become tangible, where you could protect your organization, you can actually make up to $9,000 per associate, and it’s only like within the first 60 days that they have to stay with you. All right, so there’s some real incentives out there for sale. So,

Maria Ross 30:56

you know, you talk a lot about promoting education and vocational training programs that empower formerly incarcerated individuals, what are some of those so that people listening can tap into that for talent pipelines? Maybe like, again, I don’t know where to go, what are some of the names of those, and we’ll put those links in the show notes if you mentioned any.

Trent Griffin-Braaf 31:15

Um, so some of the names, so what I can say, where we’re at, we use a lot of resources, like, Uh, excuse me, a lot of a lot of free resources. So where we are, there’s programs that help individuals with like, Excel, Microsoft, we’re teaching people how to utilize emails, things of that nature. So there’s members of our team that we work with, and we send over there as complimentary. We also do a lot of work with a W di Workforce Development Institute, in which, you know, they provide grants and other federal program, they provide grants, and that to scale up your workforce as, as well as to create more employment. And so there’s money on the table to really help skill your people. And Maria, that was a great question, because I think that’s one of the keys to being successful, is really having a really good led learning and development program for for individuals. And also understanding that everyone comes from a different educational background and learning. And if you really start to dive into numbers, a lot of people who are returning citizen, got their GED while they were incarcerated or barely graduated high school like myself. And so understanding those things mean, you need to put a little bit more time and effort into this population. Right on the flip side, which you will see is some of the most loyal individuals, right. And I can leave it on the I, even on myself, when I first got my job into Mariya, I didn’t want to leave because as humans, we don’t like to hear no. And the stigma that is in our minds are as soon as so we’ll see the felony on our record, they’re not going to give us the job, right, we’re going to be rejected. Yeah, correct. And no one likes that feeling. No one wants to be rejected. And so oftentimes, you’ll find the individual will stay with the organization and have that loyalty just because they were given a shot. Right. Yeah. You know, and so I do a lot of stuff. And it was a research article I read that said, there was this organization who their retention rates were like 30%, they started to really be mindful of hiring returning citizens, but put together a really strong led plan and how they can support them in work and outside of work way. And they said, since then, their numbers have shrunk down to below 10% When they’re when they’re on their retention rates.

Maria Ross 33:30

So I can imagine that some recruiters listening might be wondering, like, where do we find people? If we do want to open up that pipeline for them? What are some organizations that are helping with placement for formerly incarcerated individuals?

Trent Griffin-Braaf 33:44

Well, on a national level, I know a CEO is one center for economic opportunities. I know there’s the National Urban League, and then another agency recruiting agency that I know specifically is reentry works. And those are all national organizations that, you know, your listeners should be able to find in their own backyards. And we’ll

Maria Ross 34:09

put some links in the show notes as well. We’ll post a few more in the links as well for people because I think that’s, again, that’s always the question is like, we want to hire different populations. We just don’t know where to find them, because they’re not necessarily in our networks. Correct. So where do we tap into those folks? And I would like to ask you one last question, which is in terms of what companies can do it, you talked earlier a lot about the importance of mental health support. Yeah. So how does that link for what companies can do to provide for their employees whether they’re formerly incarcerated individuals or not? Rather some of the what are some of the programs you’ve seen that have worked really well? So

Trent Griffin-Braaf 34:48

around the mid to a health programming? I honestly, I found some like local agencies Trinity Alliance, they do some programming commune Any father’s. So there’s a lot of nonprofits that do a lot of mental health around helping individuals, especially formerly incarcerated individuals. And so that’s something I would, I would tell all listeners really do some homework in your own backyard or around nonprofits. And it’s usually not the big, big name nonprofits, right, although they have programs. But a lot of the smaller nonprofits who are boots on the ground on these issues, that’s where you usually find some really good programming around how to support your mental health in his space. And then, but I think for us, and like tech Valley, we’ve become very mindful of that. And so even down to the terminology we use, like, here, we understand like, we won’t say that we’re given someone a write up, because we understand that it’s someone who’s been formally incarcerated, when someone says right up, typically means that they’re jeopardizing their freedom, because you get a ride out, which means now you could be in jail for a longer amount of time. And so, here we use terminology like coaching, because that’s really what we’re doing. We’re not trying to set you up for to lose your job. We’re not trying to say you’re a terrible human. But what we’re trying to say is, hey, this is what works here, this is what we need you to do here. And it’s just a coaching, you know, just like a coach would at a football game, hey, this is what’s going on, get your head in the game. This is what we need you to do now go do it. And, and so you know, we’re very mindful of even just down to the legal. And so I just think that employers, especially to your point, where do they find them? Right? I think any employer who the first question is, where do I find this population really should take a look at their organization, and say, even if I can find this person is my organization in the space where we can really retain and help develop this?

Maria Ross 36:43

Right? It’s all it’s the same with Dei, it’s one thing to check the box and bring in all those people. It’s another thing to create inclusion, yes, in the organization and keep them. That’s

Trent Griffin-Braaf 36:54

100%. And so I think that’s where I like to encourage other leaders, Hey, first, let’s start internally, what are things we can do that will help support this population? And then let’s go after the population once we started to build that out, because now there’s a higher likelihood that this population will be successful in our workspace. And so I definitely encourage employers to do that. And again, some of the resources I mentioned, they have some, some programming in place that organizations could dive into, I’m actually doing some web series like around how do you work with parole and probation? How do you remove into stigmas and bias around hiring ex offenders? How do you build a culture that that is welcoming for ex offenders and for returning citizens. So I’m putting together some some of my own web series that employers would actually be able to send their their team through, none of them will be any longer than 45 minutes at a time. So they can actually take it, process it and they’ll all have action items, steps that every single organization could start to do immediately after going through the web series.

Maria Ross 38:02

I love that. And will you anyone that goes by that? Yeah, we’ll put and we’ll put a link to that when we put a link to you. I wasn’t gonna say it,

Trent Griffin-Braaf 38:10

anyone could find that. You love it. I love it.

Maria Ross 38:13

And so Trent, as we wrap up, what’s one last thing you want employers to know about? Hiring and coaching formerly incarcerated individuals, what sort of a last little gem you can leave us with?

Trent Griffin-Braaf 38:27

The last gem I can leave you with is organizations that do do well, in this space. And in terms of creating or creating a workplace environment, a culture that is supportive under representative population, underserved population, tend to have lower retention rates, they have access to all sorts of tax benefits that are out there that can help them be successful. Any organization that is mission driven, and has a positive mission, that usually also helps with their bottom line, because people will rally around and support and most importantly, then all of that, you’re able to really help develop and change your own community. And because with each person that you bring on, and provide opportunity, and help scale them up and help them ascend up the ladder, you have individuals who are going to be put back into their communities in taxes, you will have first time homeowners, you really do all be doing all the things that supports and builds up your area and your community. And it’s as simple as just hiring someone who you normally would and are finding these underserved populations in helping develop them. And so my that’s really the jewel that I would give, I would also say, you know, take a little bit of time to maybe get to know someone that you know, who, who, who’s been formerly incarcerated, and that that’s as easy as joining a board that might be in that space and in starting to talk to individuals. But as we spoke about at the beginning, the importance of empathy, and I believe that, like you said, You know, one of the best ways you can empathize with someone is getting to know them, and getting to understand where they’re coming from. And I think that’s one of the barriers to entry, get to know someone that, you know, comes from one of these underserved populations, start to humanize them. And then also start to understand some of the issues and the things that their traumas so that way, when you have the opportunity to have a member on your team, you’ll be more

Maria Ross 40:22

empathetic. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. There’s so many great insights. Thank you so much for coming on sharing your story and for the work that you do and the great advice and resources you’ve provided. We’re gonna have all the links in the show notes. But real quickly, where can folks best connect with you and find out more about your work? So

Trent Griffin-Braaf 40:40

I try to make it easy. You could find me everywhere with my name Trent Griffin broth. That’s the website sugar for broth.com That’s my Instagram, my Facebook, my LinkedIn pages, they’re all Trent Griffin broth. Yet how to make it easy for everyone.

Maria Ross 40:56

Thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Trent Griffin-Braaf 40:59

Thank you for having me. I love what you’re doing. And you know, like I said, let’s all just continue to be empathetic and make a much better world. Amen.

Maria Ross 41:06

And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate review, share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Dr. Cori Lathan: Benevolent Cyborgs and a Techno-Optimist’s View on Technology

Benevolent cyborgs. Not a phrase you hear often these days. With all the hand-wringing and media fear-mongering about AI and new technologies, we seem to have lost the bigger vision of how technology can improve our lives. That’s why today, I’m speaking with Dr. Cori Lathan, a techno-optimist who believes technology can be used to build empathy and connection.

Today we discuss how Star Wars and a very creative 2nd grade teacher sparked her journey into innovation and invention, how technology is being used to build empathy and connection, why empathy makes a better design team, and the future of human-machine interaction.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Technology can be a tool to help children achieve developmental milestones and build empathy.
The media will give the negative side of AI and technology because it gets better views and clicks. But great things are happening with technology that is helping to create a beautiful future.
Designing tech is about more than what happens behind the computer screen. It is about understanding the user experience and what it means for your end user.

“We are creating the future, someone isn’t doing it for us. We can create the future we want to see. We can choose the direction it goes.” — Dr. Cori Lathan

Episode References:

Dr. Cori Lathan’s Book: Inventing the Future, Stories from a Techno-Optimist: https://inventthefuture.tech/
Dr. Cori Lathan’s TEDx Talk: Innovation, Empathy, and the Future of Human-Machine Interaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnV6QDhwvhk
The Empathy Edge Podcast: Ron Gura: How Technology Helps People Navigate Grief

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About Corinna Lathan + Founder and Former Board Chair and CEO

Dr. Corinna Lathan is a technology entrepreneur who has developed robots for kids with disabilities, virtual reality technology for the space station, and wearable sensors for training surgeons and soldiers. She is a global thought leader in the relationship between technology and human performance and believes in a future of benevolent cyborgs! Dr. Lathan is Co-Founder of AnthroTronix, Inc., a biomedical engineering company focused on brain health, which she led for 23 years as Board Chair. and CEO. She developed one of the first FDA-cleared digital health platforms winning a prestigious Gold Edison Award. She was named a Woman to Watch by Disruptive Women in Health Care, a Technology Pioneer, and a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum. She also Chaired the Forum’s Councils on Artificial Intelligence and Robotics, and Human Enhancement and Longevity. Dr. Lathan has been featured in Forbes, Time, and the New Yorker magazines and her work has led to such distinctions as MIT Technology Review Magazine’s “Top 100 World Innovators,” and one of Fast Company Magazines “Most Creative People in Business.” Dr. Lathan received her B.A. in Biopsychology and Mathematics from Swarthmore College, an M.S. in Aeronautics and Astronautics, and a Ph.D. in Neuroscience from M.I.T.

Connect with Dr. Cori Lathan:

AnthroTronix: http://www.atinc.com

Twitter: twitter.com/clathan

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/clathan

Instagram: instagram.com/drcoril

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Maria Ross 01:59

Benevolent cyborgs, not a phrase you hear often these days with all the hand wringing and media fear mongering about AI and new technologies, we seem to have lost the bigger vision of how technology can actually improve our lives. That’s why today I’m speaking with Dr. Corey Latham, a techno optimist who believes that technology can be used to build empathy and connection. Cory is a technology entrepreneur who has developed robots for kids with disabilities, virtual reality technology for the space station, and wearable sensors for training surgeons and soldiers. She’s a global thought leader in the relationship between technology and human performance and believes in a future of benevolent cyborgs. Cory is co founder of Anthro tronics, a biomedical engineering company focused on brain health, which she led for 23 years as board chair and CEO. She developed one of the first FDA cleared digital health platforms, winning a prestigious gold Edison award. Her many accolades can be found in her full bio in the show notes. But among them, she was named MIT Technology Review Magazine’s Top 100 World innovators, and one of Fast Company’s most creative people in business. Corey received her BA in bio psychology and mathematics from Swarthmore College, and an MS in aeronautics and astronautics and PhD in neuroscience from MIT. And she had a life sized statue at the Smithsonian, which I did not get the chance to ask her about. Today, we discuss how Star Wars and a very creative second grade teacher sparked her journey into innovation and invention, how technology is being used to build empathy and connection, and why empathy makes a better design team. And Cory goes into what she sees for the future of human machine interaction. I loved this episode, and if you have any fears at all about technology taking over, take a listen. Let’s get connected. If you’re loving this content, don’t forget to go to the empathy edge.com and sign up for the email list to get free resources and more empathy infused success tips and find out how you can book me as a speaker. I want to hear how empathy is helping you be more successful. So please sign up now at V empathy edge.com. Oh, and follow me on Instagram, where I’m always posting all the things for you at Red slice Maria. Welcome Dr. Corey Latham to the empathy edge podcast to help us talk about all things human and machine interaction. Welcome to the show.

Dr. Cori Lathan 04:39

Thank you so much, Marie. I’m so excited to be here.

Maria Ross 04:42

So I have really been looking forward to talking to you I think we met through sort of a think tank about next generation leadership. And your work is fascinating to me. I had an opportunity to look at your TEDx talk, and hear about your work and your perspective. Have on technology and its relationship to us as humans. I’d love to hear about your story about how you got into this work. And also why you call yourself a techno optimist, which I love that phrase. Yeah, no,

Dr. Cori Lathan 05:13

it says it all, doesn’t it? You know, so my story, it’s where to start, I guess. I love starting with Star Trek. Because I feel like it kind of all started there. You know, when I was I love Star Trek as a kid. And I think what I loved most was the technology. I loved that technology enabled. I mean, even though it was fantasy, I love that technology, the fantasy of what technology could do for us, it could enable us to travel in space, it could, the replicator could make us anything we wanted. The holodeck could help us explore and imagine, you know, any adventure that we wanted, the transporter could take us anywhere, the the tricorder could heal us. So I love from early early on the vision of what technology could do to the future for the future. And actually, I had a teacher in the second grade who designed a whole curriculum around Star Trek. And for to achieve each of the officer positions, you had to do something like you had to learn how to count to 10 in three different languages to get oh, horas the communicator badge and to get the navigator badge, you had to make a map to the school and to one of your favorite places. And the first person to complete all the badges was the captain. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, final challenge was to do math problems to be to to be Spock. And I got two wrong and I was devastated. But then I found out that the other girl who I was competing against got three wrong. So I became the first captain. And I even wore in my second grade picture, which I can give you for the show notes if you want is me, my my school pictures me with my little Star Trek badge on?

Maria Ross 07:15

Oh my gosh, like, I’m getting chills hearing this. Because my son’s in fourth grade. And if only his teachers would do a curriculum like this, he would loves me so much more. Yeah, eat.

Dr. Cori Lathan 07:26

So I mean, so that was that really didn’t answer your question. But it gives you the origin story. Yeah, yeah, why I’m a techno optimist. And it honestly just went from there. I just, I never said I want to be this or I want to be that I just wanted to do stuff. I just wanted to do stuff with cool technology. And, you know, so I went on, and I kept, you know, looking for cool things to do. And a lot of it related to the space program, I ended up being an aerospace engineer. But what I discovered is that what I loved was actually the human side of it, the human technology interface. I wasn’t so much as building the spacecraft as building the, maybe the extra vehicular activity suit or the, you know, or the virtual reality training system, or, you know, how do we actually enable humans to do it. And I became a biomedical engineer. My degree is actually in neuroscience, my PhD is in neuroscience and my master’s in aerospace engineering. And then I became a professor of biomedical engineering. And again, I lost track of doing and again was, you know, I became a professor Well, I couldn’t do the things I wanted to do. I wanted to create technology. I mean, I love the students. You know, sometimes I love teaching, but I really wanted to create technology. And that’s when I realized that I really was an inventor, and I wanted to build the technology that could create the future. And that’s how I started my company, Anthro, tronics, Anthro, human tronics instrumentation, and started it in 1999. And we invented for over 20 years. And during COVID, we went virtual and sold the company, and I wrote a book about all of our inventions. So I love that sort of brings you up to date. Exactly.

Maria Ross 09:18

And we mentioned the book in the intro, but inventing the future stories from a techno optimist, which I love, and we’ll be putting a link to your book in the show notes. And I think you can. Well, there we go. Yes. For those of you who are listening, she is showing me a picture of the book cover. So let’s talk about this idea of using technology to build empathy and connection because you come at technology from a very refreshingly human centric vantage point. Even in your TED talk, you talked about the fact that the future of human machine interaction needs to have a human centered approach. And having worked in technology myself for a while, when I was working on the client side, the thing that frustrated me the most was that there were these brilliant technologists. And what they couldn’t understand was that at the end of the day, a human had to be able to use the technology they were coding or programming. And that it wasn’t enough to say, well, if it doesn’t work for them, they’re just stupid, which some programmers would say. And it’s like, no, it kind of exists to serve the people that you’re making it for. And so the ones that got it were obviously much more successful than the ones who weren’t. So tell us a little bit about your thoughts on how we can use technology to build empathy and connection. And then after that, we’re going to talk about the point I just brought up, which is, how does empathy make a better design team or a better programming team as well? Yeah, well,

Dr. Cori Lathan 10:50

just I mean, a quick a quick aside to that point. I remember, you know, back in the day, when I was both teaching and developing software, I mean, the the, the human factor saying is no, that user and the user is not you. So to your point about, you know, yeah, you really need to know your user, and it’s in service of that the user. But to back up, you know, one of the reasons why I was so excited to talk with you, Maria is I don’t hear, I don’t talk to a lot of people where empathy is part of your day to day mission. And, and I feel like it’s, and it is part of yours. And I feel like it’s been part of mine for so long. I mean, my TEDx talk was over 10 years ago now. And it was called innovation, empathy and the future of human machine interaction. So I felt like we were made for each other. Exactly. But, you know, I think the, for me, the purpose of technology has always been to bridge the gap between what we can do and what we could do if we had technology. So extend that to people to people interaction, that’s it’s the same thing, it doesn’t matter. If you’re an individual who needs a capability, though, every individual also needs the person to person capability and technology can bridge that. And it was brought home to me in such a powerful way. I think even before I started the company, I think I was still a professor, I might have been sort of in between. Because there were a couple years of overlap. We were developing robots for kids with autism. And one of the delays that kids with some kids with autism have or who are on the spectrum, are the social emotional connections. And two quick examples. One was a young girl who was having was in speech, language therapy, they, you know, they were trying to get her to express herself and learn language. And you know, they were having some success. And they started using our robot maybe to motivate her. But what we saw is that she kept hugging the robot, and building a connection with the robot more than speaking to the robot. So the speech language therapy therapist was like, Well, this is a failure. It’s not teaching her to speak, but we’re like, but the mother said, Do you see what’s going on here? This child is building is building a relationship with the robot. And guess what, at home, she started doing pretend play with her toys, which is something that very young children do, but she hadn’t done it yet, because she hadn’t been able to reach that developmental goal. So it was very powerful to see that the technology could facilitate this critical developmental goal. Another quick story, a typical, a standard goal, social emotional goal is called Joint attention. So if I say, Hey, look at that, you’re going to follow the direction of my finger, try and figure out what I’m pointing at probably figure it out, go Oh, yeah, that’s cool. Well, again, kids can have a delay in that developmental goal, and especially kids with who are on the spectrum, it’s very difficult maybe to get their attention, and then direct their attention. And we have, you know, we have video actually, that I show when I give talks of us using a robot who’s very patient, and gets the child’s attention, and then directs it for the first time, when, again, super powerful. And so that really was, was a wake up call to me that technology isn’t just to have a child achieve a developmental goal, which was kind of how I went into it. You know, I I’m an inventor. And I love working with kids, because they all have the same design specifications. They’re all trying to work toward the same goals. And going holy cow, like this is actually building human to human connection. This is building empathy for these kids and their families. So that was a big aha moment. And I think it just progressed from there where it was it was a total turnaround, in terms of how it wasn’t a total turnaround. because we were already, we were already thinking about technology as an enhancement for human capability. But I think we were thinking about that a little bit narrowly and maybe a little bit too sterile. We weren’t really thinking about it the whole in a holistic way. Yeah. So

Maria Ross 15:15

yeah, I, that is amazing. And I’m getting chills, everything you’re saying all the stories you’re sharing, but that it is this idea of, we need to highlight the stories more about the ways that technology can be used for good, and not just good to accomplish tasks, but to do exactly what you’re saying, to create those connections and to build empathy. And I think what we’re getting caught up in and you know, the media feeds off it because they love feeding off, you know, making us scared and making us angry, is that all the advancements in AI and robotics and technology, it’s going to be you know, the Terminator, it’s going to be you know, they’re going to come for us in the end. And there’s so much fear around it. And yet, when you look at the the innovators who are using technology, to create apps to you know, be companions to lonely, elderly people, or who someone I had on my podcast, a tech entrepreneur, who’s built an app called empathy, his company has actually called empathy.com, to help people during their bereavement process, and help them take care of the affairs of their loved one who’s just passed away. There’s so many ways that we can use technology to not just again, get those tasks done. But to really feel like we’re being seen, heard and understood, and to create those connections. And I feel like the media doesn’t give us those feel good stories all the time, because it doesn’t sell, you know, clicks doesn’t sell views. Yeah. So what do you think about like the law, a lot of the fear based messaging going on in the media right now, especially around AI?

Dr. Cori Lathan 16:53

It’s disappointing, because it takes away all of our agency, you know, it basically makes us victims, as opposed to, you know, the powerful agents of change and masters of our own fate, you know, when you can take that far too far as well. But it really does. It sounds like you know, I also staying with the Star Trek theme, I also talk about the board collective, and makes it sound like that we’re the Borg Collective, where we’ve given up all autonomy. But, but unfortunately, unlike the Borg who at least you get physical and mental, you know, powers, we get nothing for it. It’s just our powers taken away, and we get nothing. So. So part of what I being a techno optimist means to me, is that we are creating the future, someone isn’t doing it to us, we are creating the future. And so we can create the future we want to see. We each of us are users of technology, so we can choose how to use technology, we can we can choose the direction it goes. So I think, you know, as you said, the media is trying to sell clicks there and not. So that’s something we can do is not click Exactly. For sure. For sure. Yeah, but it absolutely. It’s disappointing, because I wish and as much attention was given to empowering people, as is in trying to make us feel disempowered, for

Maria Ross 18:16

sure. And I had a conversation with someone recently about the fact that this sort of flipped my switch, because I was a little hesitant about what you know, Where can this go, because of course, there’s always bad actors in the world. And for any technology, any tool, there’s going to be people who use it for good and people that try to use it for not so good. And I was feeling a little, I don’t know about AI, especially as an author and a speaker, what does that mean? And someone really flipped my switch by saying that, if we don’t all get involved with using the technology and populating the the learning sets, then it will only be the bad actors that are populating those learning sets and that are informing the technology moving forward. So that actually flipped for me this fear as an example of oh, do I need to do something to protect my book, my books that I’ve written, and you know, what a chat GPT is grabbing things from my books and not citing me. And I thought, You know what, it doesn’t matter. I actually want that factual information out in the world for someone else to be able to access and those people if they were interested, they’d buy my book if that interest rate not gonna buy my book anyway, so I’m not losing money because someone’s gonna get information through chat GPT but

Dr. Cori Lathan 19:28

and worst case, you permeate empathy throughout be 100%. Like

Maria Ross 19:33

a really believer your word. Yeah, exactly. And so this idea of, you know, I just, I don’t know, it just flipped my switch for me of like, we all have to get involved instead of being fearful and trying to pretend it’s not there, because otherwise bad actors will come in and take over and and use the technology in a way that is not very constructive or productive for the rest of us.

Dr. Cori Lathan 19:55

Yeah, I think that’s a great point. And I think we’ve also seen it happen And, you know, in the early days of the world wide web and the internet, there was, you know, you didn’t know where the information was coming from and there there, we don’t remember. But there were lots of people who were saying, You mean, but if I put in this this term, I could get a site from, you know, England or California, and I’m in Maryland. I mean, how, what does that mean, I can’t read something from California. I mean, it was sort of, you know, it was, that was part of it. But also, it just didn’t make any sense to anyone, that people were just throwing information and content on the web. And now, I think we realized, you know, we’ve all we’ve all learned that you have to Yes, of course, you have to be careful about the content. And there’s, but there’s a lot of content, and we need to put good content out there. And, you know, so I think we’ve we’ve been through this before, you know, with with regards to like the generative AI and chat GPT, I just spent probably an hour with my college age daughter showing her how to use it responsibly for one of her papers,

Maria Ross 21:00

saying you should make a video that

Dr. Cori Lathan 21:03

I can use Oh, yeah, no, I mean, I should I mean, oh, you know, I feel like I need to do Yeah, a post or something about it. Because to me, it’s logical. It’s just like, you go to Google, when you or when I write an article, I kind of search around and I, and I try and think about what other people have said, and there’s also some boilerplate that maybe one of the things I love Chet GPT for is I wrote an article on generative AI and mental health. And I had Chad GPT write it just to see what it would do. I didn’t really use any of the text, but I loved it. Subheadings. Yeah. So yeah, we did a blog

Maria Ross 21:40

post to experiment with it. And because I am an expert in my work, I was able to vet what it was pulling back to me, but it gave me it gave me the bones of it. And then I made it my own. Right. Yeah. And then I was able to validate the information that was there. But let’s be real, like I was a child of the 70s. And I remember researching with the encyclopedia. And I will admit that I took passages direct from the Encyclopedia, and we’ll put it in my reports. And I was citing it. I mean, most of the time, I was trying to reword it. But this is not new,

Dr. Cori Lathan 22:13

you know? No, it’s not new. You’re right. You’re absolutely right. Again, back to the point about my college student using it responsibly. She’s gonna use

Maria Ross 22:19

it. Yeah. And it is it is a big time saver has to be said, yes. But the other thing, the other interesting analogy I heard recently was on NPR, someone was talking about the fact like, look, any innovation, think about fire, think about electricity. It can kill people. Or it can warm our homes, cook our food, there’s always a there’s always a positive and a negative side to a new innovation. And I thought that was just a wonderful analogy of like, nobody’s banning fire because somebody might get burned. We have learned how to use it responsibly. Yep. Yeah, yep. No, I

Dr. Cori Lathan 22:58

think you’re right. Absolutely.

Maria Ross 23:00

I love that. So let’s flip this over to what I was referencing earlier, which is that you talk a lot about empathy, making a better design team. So the people responsible for creating the innovations and inventing the solutions? How does empathy factor into their success? And how can we be more intentional about strengthening that empathy within those teams, if people are leading teams that design or innovate or program? Yeah, I

Dr. Cori Lathan 23:26

think, you know, there’s been there’s been a huge amount of, I don’t even know not, it’s not press. It’s more just just thought leadership around good design. You know, there’s the Stanford design school, there’s IDEO, there’s all of these, you know, and most of it is about a process and the process, how do you how do you have a process that, that solicits ideas from everyone where everyone gets heard that you vet, vet those things? And I think so I think first you need a good process. But what gets, if you don’t have a good process, then it doesn’t really matter what your intentions are, and whether you have empathy or not, because the process, the good design process needs to be in place. So I just want to say that first, but the second piece of it is where I see it all go wrong. Anyway, even if a good process is in place, is that lack of empathy, and especially if you’ve really made an effort to have a good diverse design team and diversity and all its flavors, you need to have some empathy in order so that everyone gets heard. And that empathy is beyond soliciting ideas from everyone and then a process for vetting them. It’s really saying, Okay, I didn’t quite understand that idea. So now I really need to put myself in your shoes and, and really understand do the work to understand where that idea is coming from. And that’s the piece that I see that gets missed a lot in business meetings. So when you’re trying to come up with solution. So it’s not just a design of things, it’s a business solution, you know, I, well, I don’t want to go into all the negative, the negative solutions that I’ve, I’ve seen happen with the lack of empathy. But I think, you know, maybe some some good solutions, for I’ll give you some, some from my early days, which had to do with designing for soldiers. So I really had no connection to the military had no understanding of the military. And when we started the company, and started actually, even before that, when I was still a professor, we started doing some instrumentation for kids with disabilities. So a child with cerebral palsy, who might have very gross motor control, so they couldn’t operate a mouse or a keyboard, because that requires fine motor control. We were putting sensors on their hands, so that they could maybe press against the desk. And that would operate, you know, a remote control car or a keyboard or a mouse. So we I had some colleagues who came to me and said, you know, DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency is developing tactical mobile robots, and they could use this technology. And I’m, like, you just said 15, different things that I don’t understand and can’t relate to, and have no idea what’s going on. So.

Maria Ross 26:23

So,

Dr. Cori Lathan 26:24

you know, one of the first things I did is I talked to one of the students in, in a Latin one of my labs, who was former military, and he ended up being one of the founders of the company. But he was a former Marine, and was now back in school. And so he came on board to start the company as to work on these projects with me. So number one was trying to find a member of our design team who really was a subject matter expert, then number two was really trying to understand. Okay, so what does that mean that this, you know, could help soldiers and how was a soldier like a child with a disability? Explain that to me, right. So we went, and we really spent some time with military, you know, opera specialists, and operators, particularly those who were operating robots for hostage rescue or explosive ordnance disposal. And what I observed is that a lot of the soldiers, for example, had to maintain what’s you know, what’s called a fight ready position, where they actually have to pull their weapon in case there’s an emergency, but they also are trying to control a robot. So we actually those same sensors that I just mentioned, where we had a child pressing against a desk, we actually had a soldier who was holding their weapon be able to have a wearable glove with sensors in it. So now they could press against the barrel of their gun in order to operate a robot. Wow. And so there was a bunch of pieces of that where I had to really think about what is the problem they’re trying to solve, and think about their safety and I and we had to develop empathy for the person we’re designing for, and to understand their problem and develop a solution. So So I think that’s just you know, just thinking about really connecting with who you know, who you’re trying to solve the problem for. And

Maria Ross 28:22

with. I love that well, and it’s also just about, you know, it’s not enough to just be really good behind your computer screen. It’s really about getting curious. And it even if you are unfamiliar with your users world, doing your best to get curious and research and investigate and ask questions. So you really can’t understand what the experience is like for them. I I’m harkening back to my management consulting days, because I was in change management. And we were sort of the people side of the technology implementation teams, because they finally realized, oh, people have to use all this technology that we’re creating for them. And so we were often brought in for representing the users in in a technology implementation. And that meant everything from communication planning, to designing and developing training on whatever the new technology was going to be. And that was where I really got experience with working across the team, with the technologists, with the programmers to understand how the new application or program worked, so that we could train users on it. But that’s where we could also be the voice of the user and say, Well, how are they going to know that they have to press Tab x and five to do that command? And they’re like, well, they’ll just figure it out. And it’s like, well, no, like, let’s try to make that a little bit more intuitive. If we hit them. Yeah. Or, you know, they thought it was just a training problem. Like anything could be solved with like, Oh, if we just tell them this is how it works, then that’s how they’ll use it in practice. And so it really was my first my first eye opening experience without calling it empathy. Where I understood the importance of empathy in technology design, and why it is so important for those programmers and those brilliant technologists to really understand what is this actually being used for? and by whom? Exactly. I love that. So as we wrap up, I do want to ask you a question. What is the future of human machine interaction? What are some of your thoughts on where that’s going and where you are hopeful? I know, you’ve talked about the term before benevolent cyborgs which I love. But tell us, you know, from an, from a techno optimist point of view, where do you see that interaction going?

Dr. Cori Lathan 30:37

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I try and paint a picture for what I think the future is going to look like, for me. This is the you know, this is the future I’m working toward as both a technology developer and a technology user and you know, and a citizen of the world. And, you know, I, on a very, on a personal level, I think I’m gonna have better than 2020 vision, for example, you know, I think that we can be enhanced in this is what I mean by a benevolent cyborg, you know, I’ve already had eye surgery once and there’s nothing to say that I won’t have it again, and, and maybe I’ll have you no superhuman vision, I’ve had a total knee replacement, so I have better knees than I had 10 years ago. And there’s nothing to say that I won’t have bionic knees. You know, as as we go forward. I think maintaining cognitive and mental health is something that we’re all working toward, and there’s, there’s medications, there’s potentially neural implants, like this is something that there’s lots of people working toward maintaining our cognitive health as we age, there’s, there’s a lot of people who are, you know, worried about that, including myself. So I think from you know, from an individual perspective, technology is going to make us better, I want to get better as I age from a community. And, and, you know, I think, as I, as I age, I’m going to be able to travel with my family and friends. And it’s going to be both physically and virtually. This is the metaverse, you know, we’re going to be able to do amazing things to the metaverse, you’re getting your heart of, yes, I’m getting my holodeck, I absolutely get it my knowledge, it’s already here. I think using you know, we generate so much data. You know, I, when I talk about sort of biomedical applications, I say I generate more data in a day than my doctor sees in a year. You know, that’s changing as doctors see more and more data, but that data is going to be used responsibly and ethically for the better ment of our community and, and our society. And and then I think finally, I see we need to use technology to drive toward an equitable society. So I think, again, that’s given more and more attention on usually from the negative side, like what it’s not doing. But that raises awareness. And it, of course, makes us think about how to identify the technology is biased. Yeah, technology is biased, and we need to recognize that bias, and then move forward in our design. So, so I, for me, that’s part of what being a techno optimist is not that I’m a Pollyanna, not that, you know, the future is going to be great no matter what, no, the future is going to be great if we make it great, but guess what we can? Oh, I

Maria Ross 33:16

love that. Let’s just end that there. What a great thought. Cory, thank you so much for your thoughts on your insights. Today, I’m going to have all the links in the show notes, including a link to your TEDx talk and your book. But for folks that are on the go, where’s a place they can find out more about you and your work?

Dr. Cori Lathan 33:30

So LinkedIn is great way to connect with me and see my my links, you know, just see a thin I have a website invent the future dot tech. That’s a great place, you know, Instagram, Dr. Coriell. But I think invent the future dot tech is going to be where the most up to date information

Maria Ross 33:48

is going to be. Wonderful. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Maria. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

December Hot Take: Are You Outsourcing Empathy?

Welcome the final Hot Take of 2023! In this final Hot Take of the year, I’ll share a bit about how to find joy in what can feel like a dark, bleak time in the world and what empathy calls us to be for others. And I share an anecdote from my 9-year-old son that prompted me to think about how some leaders are being a bit lazy when it comes to reaping the benefits of empathetic cultures.

Have a wonderful holiday season and here’s to more empathy, joy, and peace in our world in 2024!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Empathy needs to be woven into the way we interact with each other, it cannot be outsourced to HR as the one person for empathy.
Seek out ways to find ways to bring empathy, kindness, and joy into your own home, work, and community this holiday season and beyond.
2024 promises us another chance to engage, connect, and love. Let’s use it for those purposes and make creating genuine relationships one of our goals for the new year.

“The point of empathetic leadership is that your team members know that YOU, their leader, have their backs, and see, hear, and value them.” — Maria Ross

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Quick offer for you. Listen up, all you marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, all of you trying to connect and engage with an audience to grow your impact and revenue. I’m all about strengthening empathy to achieve radical success. And this all started for me in my wheelhouse of marketing. See, I realized the key to attracting and engaging the right customers is all about understanding them seeing things from their point of view. Empathy is a marketers superpower if it’s wielded responsibly. So after running two successful real time cohorts, I now opening up my brand story breakthrough course as an on demand offering. Take it when you want how you want for as long as you want five modules of videos and playbooks designed to help you articulate your goals. Understand your customers, define your different and land on your perfect brand story and marketing message. So you stand out and attract that perfect fit audience. Marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about empathy, elevating the truth of your story. And in this on demand course, you’ll learn the exact steps that my past brand clients have gone through to craft a clear and compelling and consistent brand message that guides everything you do. You’ll walk away with a brand story strategy, ideal customer profiles, and even website and social media profile copy. Plus, with this on demand course you get access to weekly Friday office hours with me. Yep, ask questions, get feedback, share new memes, discover new insights to help your business shine. It’s insanely cost effective and extremely valuable to your business and goals. So check out the details@bit.ly slash BSB course, that’s bi T dot L y slash V sb course, or click the link in the show notes. See you on the other side. Hello, and welcome to the December issue of my empathy Edge Hot take for you. This is Maria here, my final solo episode of the year for all of you as we move into 2024 I have some musings for you about the new year and I want to share a thought with you about outsourcing empathy. So first of all, don’t forget to connect with me on Instagram read slice Maria on LinkedIn, Maria J. Ross. And let me know what you think of the show. Let me know what you would like to hear more of next year. Let me know if there’s guests that you would like to recommend. I have episodes booked and banked for you all the way through April. And I’m really excited to share some of these voices and amplify this important work from so many wonderful people that are tackling the issue of making our world and our workplaces more empathetic from so many different angles. It’s just an honor to be able to have a platform to share that with you and to amplify their work. So it’s the end of 2023. Right? How did it go? We’re all into assessments. We’re all into goals. We’re all into picking our themes for the year another year has gone On by another resolution list, another manic holiday season for many, if we’re lucky. Now sadly, for many in our world right now, these seem to be luxuries as they continue dealing with tragedy, hatred, poverty and war. And it can be hard to find the joy in our own lives when there is so much suffering. When in some cases, we are the ones suffering. Empathy reminds us that the holidays are not joyful for everyone. For many, it can be a rough time. So I’d like to invite you to do something I’m trying to do, which is seeking out ways to find the light in the dark and bring empathy, kindness and joy into our own homes, our own workplaces, our own communities. This is the way as the Mandalorian says, when we make our own lights glow brighter, we share that with the world, we infuse it with love, positivity and warmth. You can only have the impact you can have, no matter how big your sphere of influence, make it count, when and how you can, a smile, a good deed, a thoughtful note, a donation, an hour of your time, heck a minute of your time, a reassuring ear, these are the ways you can help find the light in the dark. 2024 promises us another chance, another opportunity to connect, engage and love, use it. Now I want to go into a little topic that has been top of mind lately. Obviously 2023 I feel like was the year of AI and all the hand wringing and opportunity and fear mongering and excitement that it brought to us. But what seems to be happening not just because of AI, but because of some leadership laziness is folks are thinking about how to outsource empathy. So let me explain with a little story. My nine year old son recently left a note on his dirty breakfast dishes that he put on the counter by the same the note said, Can you please pls take care of this with a sad face. And thanks. So a little post it note and this little gem awaiting me when I went over to the kitchen sink. Now the fact you must know is that he placed the dishes on the counter right above the dishwasher. Like the ultimate in lazy maneuvers. I mean writing the note took him longer than putting the dishes away, he had to go find a pen he had to go find the post it note he had to write it out. Now while this provided a great laugh with my friends and family over on social media, it got me thinking about the primal nature of laziness and how it shows up in our organizations and in our leadership. We see laziness as the customer service rep who can’t be bothered to listen to your real issue and look into possible options. It’s just easier to tell you nothing can be done. We see it in the leader who claims that adopting a more empathetic approach is too hard and takes too much time. And then falls back on the old ways of doing things which are dying, by the way. We see it in the colleague who decides getting to know other team members is a quote waste of time and forgets the importance of building relationships and connections in order to get things done. So what is the answer? Here are some options leaders like to think they have one, we will outsource empathy to HR, or to we will outsource empathy, hopefully to AI or three, we buckled down and strengthen the muscles ourselves. So let’s parse these options out. Trying to outsource empathy to HR is like a parent trying to outsource love to their child’s teacher. It doesn’t make any sense. Do they outsource kindness, courage and effective communication? The point of empathetic leadership is that your team members know you, their leader, have their backs and see here and value them. That’s the only way for you to reap all the benefits of empathy, including increased engagement, performance, loyalty, and creativity. It needs to be woven into the way that we interact with each other. It’s not a need I go to someone else to fulfill. Now trying to outsource empathy to AI is trickier. There are empathic AI technologies available. You’ve heard about some of them on our show that are helping organizations strapped for resources or staffing to provide individualized guidance and interactions in industries such as healthcare, higher ed and finance. But the organization’s leaders have to strengthen their own empathy in order to build it into the AI models and ensure the holistic customer experience is consistent and engaging. Strengthening your own empathy muscle is the smart choice. Just like going to the gym, you can build that innate human muscle if it has atrophied. You just need to put in the reps. This is why I wrote the empathy edge why I speak at leadership trainings, keynotes and customer events. To clarify what empathy looks like at work, and what is most certainly not, and give you actionable steps to strengthen your empathy. The results may not be immediate, who gets six pack abs on the first day at the gym. But over time, this is the more sustainable option that you will carry with you to great success. No matter what team you’re leading, or what role you’re in. If you’re tempted to outsource empathy, please think about the reason why are you too scared or feel too vulnerable to connect with your people or customers with empathy? If so, you may need to do some work on your own strengths and blind spots. And what causes that fear? Is it insecurity defensiveness, low self esteem, there’s some inner work to be done there. Are you strapped for time and overwhelmed? If so, perhaps prioritization is the issue and an understanding that the work of leading is connecting and engaging with your people. If you don’t have time for that, you may need to reassess how you spend your time? Or do you think machines can do it better? If so, who is teaching these machines? Where are the inputs coming from? And what happens when people interacting with AI dip in and out of workflow between humans and machines? We abour consistency. That seems like a big risk you don’t need to have to take that could have catastrophic implications on your customer or employee experience. And also No, empathy is an essential human trait about human connection. The machines will never be able to fully replicate it, even if they’re able to imitate it in some scenarios. Empathy is the most important leadership skill going into the 21st century. You can definitely augment empathy by shoring up your HR team and investing in empathic AI solutions. But you don’t want to outsource it without building it yourself. Because if you really believe that is possible, then you are making yourself obsolete. Embrace empathy, embrace connection, embrace vulnerably. admitting you don’t know all the answers, or admitting that other points of view might be more valid than yours. Or admitting that someone else might be better at something than you. It’s okay, as a leader. Leaders need to drop this facade that we can do it all be at all, that we’re perfect. Everyone around you knows that’s not true. So why are we pretending as you go into 2024 I’d love for one of your goals one of your resolutions one of your themes, to be to nourish genuine relationships. And the key to doing that is to learn how to build up your empathy capacity, to get curious, to actively listen, to understand context, and to ground yourself so that you can be a solid foundation and able to take in other points of view. I wish you the best this holiday season no matter what you celebrate. I of course wish for more peace, more empathy and more compassion in our what seems like a very broken world. And I can’t wait to share more good work with you in 2024. Until next time, remember as always, that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Catch you next time and next year on the empathy edge. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Katharine Manning: How Trauma Impacts Performance – and What Smart Leaders Can Do

How does trauma impact the workplace and organizational performance? If you’re a human being, then yes, trauma impacts you and your team. Trauma doesn’t care whether you’re at work or not. Everyone experiences trauma differently in their brain and body. The solution is to create a safe and trusting environment for leaders to get curious about their people and for someone in distress to be able to get support. The important thing to remember is that this isn’t a competition – no one’s trauma is more or less “worthy” than another’s.

Today, my guest Katharine Manning and I discuss what is trauma, how it affects the workplace, how we can recognize trauma in others, and 5 steps to respond to a colleague, team member – or frankly anyone – dealing with trauma. She shares great examples of how we might brush things off or inadvertently let go of a great employee when we’re not cognizant of trauma, what it means to be a trauma-informed organization, and three steps to creating one. This was a robust conversation and I know whether you are a leader or a colleague will get so much out of it to boost performance and engagement – while also supporting someone in need.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Any trauma will change us – we need to acknowledge that change, we can then embrace that new version of us.
Trauma can manifest itself in different ways in different people. It can also be triggered by situations that, for some, may not be triggering and for others it’s life-shattering.
You can make tough decisions and be a strong leader with empathy. Those are the best leaders with the most successful companies.

“Trauma isn’t a jacket that you can just take off when it’s time to go to work. We carry it with us and it affects how we show up…I want to get people away from trying to decide whether what you have gone through counts as trauma. Just focus on the person in front of you and what they need.”

— Katharine Manning

About Katharine Manning, President, Blackbird DC and author, The Empathetic Workplace

Katharine Manning is the President of Blackbird DC, which provides training and consultation on empathy at work. She is the author of The Empathetic Workplace: Five Steps to a Compassionate, Calm, and Confident Response to Trauma on the Job, and teaches at American University and in the Master’s in Trauma-Informed Leadership Program at Dominican University. She has worked on issues of trauma and victimization for more than 25 years.

References Mentioned

The Empathy Edge podcast, Sarah R. Browne, It’s Possible to Parent AND Lead without Punishment- the Brain Science Behind It

LinkedIn Article by Maria Ross: What Does Psychological Abuse at Work Look Like?

Connect with Katharine Manning

Blackbird DC: http://www.blackbird-dc.com

Book: The Empathetic Workplace: 5 Steps to a Compassionate, Calm, and Confident Response to Trauma on the Job

X: https://twitter.com/kl_manning

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katharine-manning/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EmpatheticWorkplace

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/empatheticworkplace/

Join to get weekly texts on empathy, leadership, and resilience: Text “blackbird” to 833-975-1945

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Katharine Manning 04:23

Thank you. It’s really such a pleasure to be here with you. So

Maria Ross 04:27

I’d love to hear you know, I’ve mentioned a lot on this show how I came to this empathy at work, work. And I would love to hear your story briefly of how you came to be someone who talks about empathy at work and specifically, trauma you know, your book, The the empathetic workplace five steps to a compassionate, calm and confident response to trauma on the job came out in 2021. So tell us how this all came to be salutely

Katharine Manning 04:54

First of all, just thank you so much for having me. It’s really such a pleasure to be here talking about these topics with you My story is I am a lawyer who has spent most of my career working with crime victims. I started back in college doing hotline work on domestic violence and rape crisis. It was through that work that I decided I wanted to go to law school because I kept seeing that victims were not being treated fairly within the legal system, and I wanted to do something about it. After law school, I went to a firm for a few years in San Francisco, but then eventually ended up at the US Department of Justice. And my role there was I was a senior attorney advisor on victims rights. What that man is, I did policy and training and consulting on cases, all on this issue of how the department works with crime victims, and I worked on such a wide array of cases, anything from fraud to human trafficking, terrorism, everything under the side, one of the things I started to realize was people didn’t need different things based on what they were a victim of, like a victim of identity theft, didn’t need wildly different things than a victim of domestic violence, everybody needed to feel heard and acknowledged, everybody needed some support to get back on their feet again. And then I began to realize that it wasn’t just the victims who needed those things that my colleagues did to colleagues who were maybe dealing with really difficult issues at work, like the cases that were really traumatizing, or issues like having a an abusive boss. So workplace issues experiencing bias and harassment, you know, workplace issues can cause trauma. And in addition, there are traumas that people are dealing with every day outside of work, people who are in abusive relationships, who are struggling with alcoholism, and addiction, who are caring for loved ones who are facing mental or physical illness, all of those issues take a toll on us. And a, you know, I sometimes say trauma isn’t a jacket that you can just take off when it’s time to go to work. I mean, we carry it with us. And it affects how we show up our communication, our engagement, our absenteeism. And when workplaces can get better at recognizing and responding to trauma in the workplace, they build stronger workers, better relationships, and ultimately stronger organization. And so I left DOJ in 2019, and started working on the book. And since then, through my company Blackbird, I have been doing training and consulting for just a wide array of organizations, anything from higher ed to the corporate, to government, to nonprofits, but all on this topic of how to you better support your employees and your clients, the communities that you serve, through periods of trauma, distress?

Maria Ross 07:50

Wow, I mean, what a journey and what a link you made between victims rights and supporting victims, and the need for empathy, not just justice, in that role, but the ability to connect with them as human beings. And I love how you notice that impact in the workplace as well, because I think there are many people who still have that notion that trauma, quote, unquote, is not something that happens to you in an everyday situation, they associate it with war, or, you know, big global disasters, they don’t associate, even things like PTSD, with something that people do every day, working nine to five, and myself having been in a like mentally, not so great relationship. And in a psychologically abusive workplace. They feel the same, it doesn’t matter what the causes or the environment, it feels the same as a human being. So I would real quickly love to find out why you called your company Blackbird.

Katharine Manning 08:54

So I am gonna admit I am terrible at naming things. Like when my book sold the, the editor at HarperCollins was like, We love everything, but you have to change the title. Right? Right, right. This is just not my strike. But I kept coming back to the word Blackbird. And it is the reason it speaks to me, it’s because of that old Beatles song, you know, Blackbird singing in the dead of nines. And what I especially love is that line take these broken wings and learn to fly. What I love about that is that it acknowledges that when you’ve been through something hard, something traumatic, or changed by it, you’re not the same afterward as you were before, but you can still go on and do incredible things not in spite of but because of all that you have been through in your life. And that’s really my goal through my work is to help understand that it’s okay to acknowledge that this is hard, and to trust that supporting each other we can get through it.

Maria Ross 09:53

I love that so much because I’m going to take a little segue my left my longtime listeners know about my story. I have recovering from a near fatal brain aneurysm in 2008. And I wrote a book about that experience rebooting my brain. And a big part of my recovery was understanding that you have to acknowledge that things have changed, you can’t pretend everything’s fine. And we can just quote unquote, go back to normal. Any trauma that we experience brain injury, abusive relationships, a crime against us, we have to acknowledge that it’s changed us. And the sooner that we acknowledge there’s a new version of ourselves, the sooner we can embrace that new version, and come up with new strategies for how to cope and new strategies for how to live and set goals and find our joy. But even in my recovery, that was actually the biggest hurdle I had to overcome, because I kept trying to get back to the way I was before. And I had a very kind, tough love physical therapist who said, Forget about what you used to be able to do before, we’re going to deal with what’s in front of us now. And it was at that moment, literally, that things turned around for me. So I love that you said that. And that idea of trauma doesn’t have to, it doesn’t have to kill us. It doesn’t have to destroy us. It just but it will change who we are and how we see the world. And if we can acknowledge that and work through it, all the better and empathy from others and to ourselves, can really help with that. So thank you for the work that you’re doing. Now, let’s just for sharing that story. Yeah, it’s just it’s so it’s so interesting that whenever we deal with any trauma, I find that the natural reaction is to go back, we want to make things sort of erase it and go back to what we were before, but we can’t. It’s like, everything that happens to us becomes the story of our lives. And we need to work with that as the clay we have in front of us now. So let’s help people get a better understanding. Because trauma is thrown around a lot. It’s thrown around in mental health circles, and even you know, some workplace circles, where people do sometimes call a workplace traumatic when maybe that’s not quite what’s happening there. So what is trauma?

Katharine Manning 12:11

You’re right, there are a million different definitions of it. The definition that I use in my work, is that trauma is a psychological injury that affects performance. That is a kind of slimmed down version of the definition used by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, or SAMSA. What I like about that definition is that, in contrast to some others, it doesn’t give you a list of life events, and define trauma as if you have experienced one of these life events, and you’ve experienced trauma, right? I don’t like defining trauma in terms of the life event or the experience. Because the reality is that we all have different experiences of the same events. I mean, if you have more people who were in a car accident together, you know, one might walk away and be a little shaken up, but able to make their way to work and be kind of fine for the rest of the day. And the rest of the week, another one falls apart at the scene can’t go to work for the rest of the week, can’t get in a car for a month, maybe a third one seems fine heads into work. And then that night falls apart. sobbing. None of those is the right reaction. They are all just within the range of normal human reactions to a dramatic and woman. So I want to get people away from trying to decide whether what you have gone through counts as trauma. Yeah, has just focus on the person in front of you and what they need. And that’s the other piece of it is that it affects performance. Because we’re when we’re in a workplace, that’s really what we’re talking about. Is there something that you are going through right now that is keeping you from being able to perform, you know, at home at work in the ways that you want and need to? And if so, let’s get you some help.

Maria Ross 13:54

So how can leaders or even colleagues recognize trauma and someone else they might be able to see an outward reflection of, you know, sudden anger or disconnection or someone who’s, you know, not turning things in on time anymore? It might manifest in 1000 different ways, as you said, so how can we have our eyes open to recognize that maybe the behavior that we’re witnessing is a symptom of trauma? You know, I

Katharine Manning 14:21

think it’s helpful to talk a little bit about how trauma affects the brain because I think that context can kind of help frame why different reactions can all be evidence of trauma. So there is a part of our brain called the amygdala, whose job it is to keep us safe. And it is always scanning our environments, trying to figure out if we’re in danger in any way and when it perceives a danger of any kind. It triggers the stress response where one thing it does is gives us a flood of adrenaline in case we have to take some action like fight off an attacker or run away. It also in Another important thing that it does is the parts of the brain that are less relevant for immediate physical protection get dialed down just a little bit, well, it’s relevantly, the parts in your prefrontal cortex that are associated with complex thinking and rational decision making, they get dialed down, because I think the amygdala is reasoning right now I don’t need to read a spreadsheet I need to run. So I’m just gonna focus on getting blood into your legs and right,

Maria Ross 15:23

I don’t need to organize my schedule, I do

Katharine Manning 15:27

it so that obviously, you know, we developed that way for very good reasons. And I think it does keep us safe and a lot of instances, but one of the things that’s difficult is the amygdala, while it is very good at keeping us physically safe, it’s not always very good at telling when we are in physical danger. So you, for instance, maybe you stand up to deliver a presentation and your mind goes blank, your hands start shaking, you’re having that stress response, obviously, you’re not in physical danger. But it’s maybe reputational danger, right? If you have to go in to your boss and say, I need you to understand that I’m going to need to telework for a little while because I’m in an abusive relationship. And I need to go live in a shelter for a little while. And I don’t, I want to make sure nobody knows where I am. Even, that is a terrifying conversation to have, right? And you can have that stress response. Right. So it can manifest therefore in things like, you know, a flood of adrenaline, so you’re suddenly pacing, or you can’t keep still, other things are brain fog, difficulty remembering things, difficulty comprehending or explaining, all of those can be signs of trauma, in terms of recognizing it in the workplace, I think one of the things I tend to advise and try to live by myself is to start with an assumption of best intentions, and provide clarity and, and grace wherever possible. So when somebody is, for instance, you know, showing up late a lot, let me tell you a story. There was a guy I spoke with who was the CEO of a company, and I was talking to him about the work that I do and why I do it, and why it matters. And he was listening and, and he got quiet for a second. And he said, you know, we almost fired one of my best friend’s, he said, this was this guy was the head of sales for the company, they had come up together and work together for more than a decade, you know, been to each other’s houses, their wives were friends, he had always been a pillar of the organization’s success, you know, that he was part of why this company was what it was. And then one day, his performance just fell off the cliff. Wow, like he started showing up late, he was not engaging on projects. He was dropping the ball a lot. And the leadership team had a meeting about it. And they were like, we can’t have somebody in this position who can’t perform. It’s too important a role. And I think we got to let them go. And then finally, somebody said, Well, why don’t we talk to him? And see talking? I know exactly.

Maria Ross 18:12

I know, we talk and get curious about what’s going on for this person. Right?

Katharine Manning 18:17

Ask. So they did. And what they found out when they asked that question was that the man’s wife was dying, oh, my goodness. And he had wanted to bring it up at work. Because he thought, you know, my personal issue is, and I don’t want to be making excuses or something like that. But once he was able to be open about everything he was going through, and they got some support around him, obviously, they were horrified and you know, did what they could to support him. According to the CEO, this guy’s performance did a 180 like that day. And when I think about it, you know, there’s the stress of work, which is, you know, going to be there and we’ll do what we can, there’s the stress of knowing that his wife was dying, and they can’t do much about that. But then there is a third stress, which is what is worth going to say about the fact that I’m worried about my wife. It’s the

Maria Ross 19:04

optics, the stress of the optics of what will people think of me? Yeah,

Katharine Manning 19:09

exactly. Exactly. And because they could get rid of that it was like this burden lifted, right? And then you know, you also think about, like the loyalty of that, right? Like you stood by me when my wife was dying. Like, I haven’t been here forever, I will, I will do anything to stand by you because of the way you stood by me.

Maria Ross 19:28

I think that that’s, you know, this is the crux of what people mean when they talk about bringing yourself to work. We’re not talking about letting it all hang out and being completely unprofessional at all times and becoming in your bathrobe. Talking about this, we’re talking about taking that stress out that unnecessary stress away. That for all practical purposes detracts from your performance. Like if we’re looking for bottom line reasons to understand why we should be more empathetic for our colleagues and for our team members at work. That’s why it’s you take that step. and burden away from someone. So now you can get to what can we do to help improve the performance and support this person, especially if they’ve been a high performer in the past. So what a great story and a not a great story for that person, unfortunately. But a great story to exemplify why we need to lead with curiosity and getting to know people and not being afraid to sometimes bring our personal life into our workplace environment, because whether we want to admit it or not, it’s impacting the work. So we can pretend it’s not there. But it really does impact the work and it impacts the performance of the company at the end of the day. Definitely, definitely. I love that. So now that we might have some, some cues to recognize that, you know, not always, but trauma could be a factor here. What are some good ways to respond? Because I have talked in the past about, sometimes our best intentions can actually cause more harm than good. And I always use the example of empathy hijacking, whereas it’s, it’s, you know, you tell your story you share with me, and I instantly try to connect with you by talking about my story and what happened to me, right. And so how can we respond to someone that we suspect might be dealing with trauma? I love

Katharine Manning 21:22

that you talked about that empathy, hijacking, and that’s something that I focus on a lot of this oil. Yeah. And I think you’re right, there is a desire to connect, but what you’re doing is really pulling the microphone, you know, towards yourself. So, in all of this work with prime victims, a lot of what I did you know, I’m a lawyer, and my role was to, you know, my, my job was to advise on victims rights. But what I found over time was that the legal aspects of my job were less than less, and it was much more about this. How do you express empathy? How do you support people in trauma, and so it was something that I was doing a lot with prosecutors, law enforcement agents, just try to help people know how to better support people. And I know that it’s hard. First of all, let me just acknowledge that it is hard to me, for me to this day, I mean, I’ve had conversations in the last six months with people where they say something, and I feel like I’ve just been punched in the stomach. And it takes me a second to like, you know, reconfigure and realize, okay, this is a story of trauma that has just been shared with me. So I need to make sure that I’m responding appropriately with compassion and column. So because I know all of that, and because I also know that feelings are contagious. And that’s another aspect of empathy, right as we feel the feelings of the people that we’re interacting with. And so when we are interacting with somebody in trauma, we can get a little contagion effect of that surge of adrenaline and suppression of complex thinking. So suddenly, we’re like, playing with our pen, we keep looking at the door, our brain goes a little blank, it’s hard to respond well, in those moments. So I came up with the five steps of what I think you should do to support somebody when they’re sharing a story of trauma with you. And this is really geared toward the workplace, but a lot of it is applicable in any context. So the acronym is laser, Le s e r. And I like to say it’s to help you stay laser focused on the person in front of you and what it is that they need. The five steps are number one, listen, this is active listening, showing them that you actually want to hear what they’re saying. You nod you say, Aha, you ask questions, open ended questions to let them know that you want them to keep talking. Next step is acknowledge. And this is really just letting the person know that you’ve heard them. So rather than watching into your own story of something similar that happened to you, or the scrape resource that you think they should access, first thing is just let them know that you’ve heard them. Something as simple as thanks for sharing that. Or I’m sorry for everything you’re going through, or that sounds really hard or scary, or whatever it sincerely sounds to you. So just a quick statement that acknowledges that they’ve shared something with you, and thanks them for it. Try to avoid responses that either deny or distract for what they’ve said. So the distraction is the one that you just mentioned, you know, something similar happened to me. So let me tell you about that. Distraction can also be something like, oh, well, really, you need to focus on your kids right now. So let’s just talk about how you’re taking care of your kids, instead of the thing you just shared. A denial is something like Oh, I’m sure you misunderstand, right? Or

Maria Ross 24:35

it’s nothing. It’s all going to work out. Yeah. What would under that under that also fall the trying to problem solve it right away, trying to get the advice and you should go talk to this person or you should do this or you should listen to this podcast or the show. Yeah, absolutely.

Katharine Manning 24:51

Yeah. And I think honestly, that problem solving thing is, I think it becomes harder to avoid the more senior you get at work in this way you get more senior, it’s by being really good at solving problems. So it becomes instinctive you think this is my value in a work situation is that I can solve a problem. And in a lot of context, I’m sure that’s true. And it’s excellent that you’re such a good problem solver. But in this context, problem solving can come across as trade or minimizing, because probably, they have already thought of all of the solutions that you’re thinking of view. And it can make them feel kind of dumb. You know, like, oh, well, have you considered? You know, you tried? Of course I have. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the reality is, you’re never going to come up with a solution as good as what they will come up with, because you don’t know their situation as well as they do. So when I talk about this, in training, I have a slide of a person, like a superhero wearing a cape and, and I say it’s it remember that you want them to wear the cape, like problem solving feels really good. Let them do it. Right.

Maria Ross 25:58

So good. So we’ve we’ve gone through listen and acknowledge and then we have s er,

Katharine Manning 26:06

yeah, so share is the next step. One of the things I saw in working with crime victims is everybody created information. They wanted to know what happened to the what, when what was gonna happen next. And I began to realize that one of the things about periods of trauma or distress periods of upheaval, is they feel very out of control. And knowledge is power, when we can share information with people that helps them feel a little bit more in control. So you can share facts if you know them, like you know, if there was an incident of workplace violence. This is what we know about what happened, can share process information, maybe somebody comes to you to report bias. And you say, Well, you know, we have a process for handling complaints of bias, here’s what it is. Talking through process can be helpful. Sharing value, this is helpful, you know, we take these issues very seriously, safety is of paramount importance. Values, information can be helpful and even being open about what you don’t know, like, I don’t know how these public complaints are handled, no, but let me know what I can find out. And I’ll get back to you. Even that is giving information. So when you

Maria Ross 27:11

talk about share, though, I could see that being interpreted as what we just talked about, which is sharing advice and sharing problem solving. How do you discern those two?

Katharine Manning 27:22

Yeah. So share is really giving the person information that they want and need, that’s helpful for them. And really, I mean, I think of the blocks of information as being facts about the situation, process information, like your our steps, right, you wanted to do X or Y, or Z, or these are how decisions are being made around this issue of values and things that aren’t known but hope to be sin. And so this is not your time to open up about like the great thing that your sister did when she was in a similar situation. It’s really this is factual information that’s going

Maria Ross 27:57

to help them in this moment. Yep. And is there any guidance on if they’re ready for that? So for example, is it? Is it okay to ask for consent? Have you know, is this talk? Are we talking now? Are you just are you just wanting to vent at this point? And have me listen? Or would you like me to talk you through some of the resources we have available? Is that ever appropriate? Yeah,

Katharine Manning 28:22

it is. Absolutely. And you know, the next step in power is all about resources. It’s going outside. And for both of these steps, really, I think getting consent is helpful, and just saying, you know, what, how can I help you? What do you need right now is always a worthwhile thing. And then actually listening and trying to provide that sometimes people don’t know what it is that they want, or need. So just reminding them, I remember having a conversation once with a colleague who she came to me to say that she was concerned that her ex boyfriend, you know, he was just acting in ways that were a little scary, you know, like showing up a lot. And, and she said, you know, a few times when she’s walked out of the office, he’s been right there waiting, and she’s not really sure, like, why he was doing that. And oh, by the way, he’s law enforcement. So he’s always carrying a gun. And I mean, that she was sharing all of that. And I was listening and acknowledging, and I said, and have you thought about talking to security at our office? And she was like, No. And I said, Well, you know, there’s, there’s really smart people in our security office, and it might just be helpful for them to understand that, you know, the guy hanging around up front, you know, maybe has a previous relationship with somebody inside and she did go and talk to them. And they were great. I mean, incredibly kind and supportive and didn’t make a huge deal of it. And right, you know, took a picture of the guy that she had and you know, just were very supportive within

Maria Ross 29:53

and I love the way you phrase that because there’s the difference between you should go do this with Have you thought about I mean, words matter in these moments. And so you might be saying the same thing. But you’re saying it in a way that’s a little bit more empowering. And also, like you said earlier, acknowledges that maybe she didn’t think of that before. And so you’re not putting her in, in a defensive position. It’s just have you thought about that. So I love I love those ways of those little cheats we have of ways that we can say something and still share the information with people in a way that they might better receive it in that frame of mind. Yeah, that’s

Katharine Manning 30:32

such a great call out. Thank you for that. And you know, one of the things that amygdala response, right, the flood of adrenaline suppression of conflicts, thinking all of that is around safety, do I feel safe here. And it can really affect your ability to comprehend and to articulate what you’re going through, if you don’t feel safe, doing so wherever possible, try to find ways to make the person feel more safe, is going to help you. So that’s why we lead with things like questions, what would be helpful to you what, you know, what do you need? I will even start off with like, Hey, do you want me to close the door? Or do you like it open to other shades open? Would you like a glass of water, just giving people as much opportunity to express their own needs, and have those needs met? All of those things are going to increase safety and are going to help the conversation. And

Maria Ross 31:24

I think that that’s why that’s important to understand that we can’t determine for somebody else, what is traumatic to them? We the it’s it’s in the environment where they don’t feel safe, and they may feel threatened by something we are perfectly fine with. And so, you know, it’s that it’s that judgment again, over i don’t i don’t think what you went through sounds traumatic. You know, I, my uncle fought in World War Two, and whatever you know, is, it’s this comparison of like someone else’s trauma not being as important or as bad, quote, unquote, as someone else’s, when we can’t help how we respond, how our brain responds as human beings that impact on our psyche, on our emotions on our brain chemicals can feel exactly the same. And we just need to acknowledge that for people.

Katharine Manning 32:13

Absolutely. And it’s, it’s just not effective. You know, I mean, if you approach somebody and you really, you’ve got a team member who, you know, you’re really frustrated, because he’s not doing what he’s supposed to do, and you come in with like an attack, and he gets defensive. And like, none of this is helping anything, you know,

Maria Ross 32:33

everything, all the all the higher functioning things in our brain shut down. I was just talking to a parenting coach yesterday, and I’ll put a link to her episode. But Sarah R Brown, and we were talking about the fact that even with little children, why punitive doesn’t always work, because your brain is literally shutting down. There’s brain science behind why that’s an ineffective way to parent. And by the way, lead. And I just, there’s so many parallels with, we have to we have to work with how our brains work. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, that maybe you you hear this a lot, too. I will get responses sometimes from leaders of like, I mean, I get all this empathy stuff. But the reality is, I have to make difficult decisions, sometimes I have to take actions that are not going to be popular. And it’s important that I have the respect of my people and their, and like, okay, drives me, it drives me up a tree when I hear that, yes, I know.

Katharine Manning 33:33

And, I mean, here’s the thing, like, you can lead with fear, okay, and you can get a lot done in the short term, I will not deny that, but you are building your house on a minefield, because people are not going to tell you all of the problems that you know, that you are looking over, as you’re in this, you know, sprint to get this house up as quickly as possible. And so that’s where you end up with things like where you have planes falling out of the sky, because nobody’s willing to listen that maybe there’s a problem with this, where you have like the Larry NuSTAR case, where with US Olympics, gymnastics where they had 200 women and girls being abused. Why did that happen? Well, I think part of it is there was a culture of fear on that team, and where nobody felt like they were allowed to open up about what they were going through. So what ends up happening, huge, you know, bankruptcies and major problems, and a lot of smaller problems as well like decreased engagement, turnover, all of the other issues as well. So yes, you can lead with fear and you can get a lot done very, in the very short term, but it is never going to work out over the long term.

Maria Ross 34:42

Now, this idea that it’s an either or that either I’m going to be respected or I’m going to be empathetic, drives me absolutely insane. Because it’s this idea that it can’t be both when really, you can make tough decisions with empathy. You can be a strong leader with If empathy they coexist, and actually the best leaders that we are willing to follow into the fire are those that we know see us as humans and respect us. And the exact same task that an unsympathetic leader asks me to do, I’m going to be completely unwilling to do it.

Katharine Manning 35:17

Okay. So like, yeah, I totally agree in terms of people following you. It also gives you better information. Yes, yeah. He will just go down this path blindly. Yeah, right to the fact that there’s some major flaw that somebody would tell you if you know, if you look like you cared,

Maria Ross 35:35

right, right, exactly. So let’s wrap on this idea of so your leader listening, how can you build a trauma informed organization, which is sounds kind of scary to want to build a trauma informed organization? It’s like you’re inviting it in, right? But we’re humans, it’s already gonna be there in some way, shape, or form for people. So what does it mean to be a trauma informed organization? And how can what are some steps that leaders can take to start down that path?

Katharine Manning 36:05

Yeah, absolutely. First, let me just wrap up the laser. So the last step, yes, sorry. No, yeah, that’s okay. So we did listen, acknowledge, share and power, which is the referral to resources like EAP. And then the final one is return. And that’s both literally returning to the person check in on the later let them know you continue to be a resource. It’s also returned to yourself, acknowledging that supporting others can take a toll on us. And so we have to be taking care of ourselves as well. I’d love to add at least Yeah, I got

Maria Ross 36:36

I got too overexcited there. So yeah. Oh, good. Just a point on that is this idea of self care. So important, I’m going to be writing about it as one of the five pillars of effective empathetic leadership in my next book that’s coming out in 2024. Because we have to get away from this idea that self care is indulgent. Because we have to, we charge our phones up every night. I know, we’ve heard that ad nauseam. But we do, there’s assets we take care of, to ensure they are working properly. And we as leaders have to take care of ourselves to ensure that we are working properly. And to your point, if you are the receiver of someone’s traumatic experience, or they’re sharing a traumatic story with you, that is that is going to impact you as well. So you need to make sure that you are taking care of yourself, you’re not getting lost in the process of trying to be empathetic to someone else. Yeah,

Katharine Manning 37:33

absolutely. And it is normal and healthy for it to take a toll on you like no one worse, hearing something horrific is going to have an effect. So it’s not that that effect is the negative thing. It’s the failure to give yourself space for recovery. Isn’t the problem, Asian, so allow yourself like, wow, that was really hard. I mean, it’s happened to me recently, I did a training and somebody shared a story in the training that just really left me kind of reeling. And I came away feeling hopeless, and just really depleted. And I took a little time I reached out to a friend and I, you know, just gave myself a little room to process all of that. And it took a day or two, but I felt better and hopeful again, and I think that’s the key is just giving yourself the space and the support that you need to be able to recover.

Maria Ross 38:23

Yes, absolutely. Okay, so we will return to the trauma informed organization. How, what is that? And how are what are some steps that leaders can take to build it? What’s the payback for doing?

Katharine Manning 38:36

Yeah, absolutely. So a trauma informed workplace just means that it’s a workplace where there is an understanding that trauma is affecting the organization, right? We have people here who are experiencing trauma, that it has a negative effect, and we work to mitigate those negative effects. That’s all it means. We are aware of it and we’re doing our best to try to make it better. Okay, so it’s not, not rocket science. It’s just an understanding and efforts to improve. And then in terms of building a trauma informed workplace, I really think there are three aspects. First, is this idea of acknowledgement, that people there feel like I can be heard, if I express something, people will hear me, okay, it’s okay to open up about challenges. And I will be acknowledge, the second one is support, I can get help when I need it. And that means there are policies on the books that are helpful, you know, things like mental health, you know, days or miscarriage leave or any of a number of different programs and policies that are there. That also means things like transparency, are we open about the direction we’re going and challenges we’re facing? And then finally modeling self care showing that it really is okay. And that’s where we talk about leaders. I always say you have to engage not just in self care but noisy self care. Be very, very Are you clear about I’ll have boundaries to that is okay, where I need to get help. I just went back to therapy. And it’s been really helpful for me, like just saying that think about how much possibility you open up for other people in your organization. And

Maria Ross 40:14

I love that last one real quick, I just want to have to say, because we’ve been in a culture so long, where people have worn the badge of busyness as something they boast about, I can’t wait for the point where the norm is that we boast about how we take care of our emotional health. Like a lot, yes to be our badge of honor. Right? You found my gun lately? Well, yeah.

Katharine Manning 40:42

And then we’re aspect of the trauma informed workplace that I think is important is this idea of trust and safety, that I understand the rules here that they apply equally to everybody that you followed through and do the things you say you’re going to do, we don’t have one set of rules for one set of employees and another for others. So creating a safe environment for everybody is also important.

Maria Ross 41:07

I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing all these insights. I want to remind folks again, to check out the book, The empathetic workplace, five steps to a compassionate, calm and confident response to trauma on the job. Katherine Manning, thank you so much for your time today. We’ll have all your links in the show notes. But just real quickly, is there one or two places where folks can find out more about you and your work?

Katharine Manning 41:28

Sure. So my website is Catherine manning.com. But if people are interested, you know, every Thursday, I send out a text message on empathy and leadership and resilience. It’s just a free thing. But it’s been fun. So if people are interested in joining that just type, it’s the number is 833-975-1945. That’s 833-975-1945 and just write the word Blackbird, which is my company name, you just send that word and you’ll be automatically entered. And

Maria Ross 42:00

we will put that in the show notes for anyone that’s on the go right now and scrambling for a pen. But thank you so much again, it was so lovely to talk to you and I look forward to more conversations with you. Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or colleague. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be Kai. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

John Southard: How Military History Can Transform Your Customer Engagement Strategy

A military historian walks into a company and transforms their customer engagement strategy to increase revenue and retention. While this might sound like the start of a very strange joke, it’s a true story. When searching for frameworks on how to better engage your customers with empathy, look no further than my guest today, John Southard.

Backed by more than 10 years of research built into his book, Defend and Befriend: The US Marine Corps and Combined Action Platoons in Vietnam, John has transformed the lessons from his historical research into a simple and proven empathy framework that companies can leverage to better understand customer needs – and we discuss that framework today, as well as examples each stage in action. We discuss why some leaders view the customer as the enemy and how that’s hurting their growth, why simply responding to customer surveys is not the way to build engagement, and how your hiring decisions impact customer retention and engagement in ways you may not realize.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Exposure to groups other than yourself is the gateway to empathy. Getting into conversation is the first step to breaking false assumptions and realizing that both sides are human.
A recent study shows that a lack of empathy from brands to consumers loses companies money, to the tune of $300M, every year.
Cultivating communities and relationships with customers allows you to get feedback from them directly and build trust with those customers.
When trying to find your differentiator – start with what your customers need, both overtly and covertly. It takes time, but the ROI is worth it and sustainable in the long term.

“What unfolded is…the greatest unknown story of empathy, because these Marines show up and realize quickly, we have to live here, we have to abide by their rules, we have to understand their culture…because our personal survival literally depends on it. They lived a day in the life of these villagers to gain their respect.” — John Southard

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge podcast, Kara Goldin, On Undaunted Leadership
The Empathy Edge podcast, Sandy Thompson, How to Make People Fall in Love with Your Brand

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About John Southard, Customer Engagement Expert, Speaker, Author

John has a Ph.D. in U.S. Military History and is an author, speaker, and expert in customer engagement and empathetic leadership. He has applied his historical research on empathy to corporate America to build empathetic leaders and cultures and optimize customer and employee experiences. Backed by more than 10 years of research, John has transformed the lessons from his historical research into a simple and proven empathy framework that companies can leverage to better understand customer needs.

Connect with John Southard

Website: Southard Speaks: https://www.johnsouthardspeaks.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsouthardhistoryphd/

Instagram: https://instagram.com/southardspeaks

Book: Defend and Befriend: The US Marine Corp and Combined Action Platoons in Vietnam

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. A military historian walks into a company and transforms their customer engagement strategy to increase revenue and retention. While this might sound like the start of a very strange joke, it’s a true story. When searching for examples and frameworks on how to better engage your customers with empathy, look no further than my guest today, John southern. John has a PhD in US military history, and is an author, speaker and expert in customer engagement and empathetic leadership. He has applied his historical research on empathy to corporate America to build empathetic leaders and cultures and optimize customer and employee experiences. Backed by more than 10 years of research built into his book, defend and befriend the US Marine Corps and combined action platoons in Vietnam. John has transformed the lessons from his historical research into a simple and proven empathy framework that companies can leverage to better understand customer needs. And we discuss that framework today, as well as examples of each stage in action. We discuss why some leaders view the customer as the enemy and how that’s hurting their growth. Why simply responding to customer surveys is not the way to build engagement, and how your hiring decisions impact customer retention and engagement. In ways you may not realize this was such an interesting and enlightening episode. Please enjoy. Quick offer for you. Listen up all you marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, all of you trying to connect and engage with an audience to grow your impact and revenue. I’m all about strengthening empathy to achieve radical success. And this all started for me in my wheelhouse of marketing. See, I realized the key to attracting and engaging the right customers is all about understanding them seeing things from their point of view. Empathy is a marketers superpower if it’s wielded responsibly. So after running two successful real time cohorts, I now opening up my brand story breakthrough course as an on demand offering. Take it when you want how you want for as long as you want five modules of videos and playbooks designed to help you articulate your goals. Understand your customers, define your different and land on your perfect brand story and marketing message. So you stand out and attract that perfect fit audience. Marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about empathy, elevating the truth of your story. And in this on demand course, you’ll learn the exact steps that my past brand clients have gone through to craft a clear and compelling and consistent brand message that guides everything you do. You’ll walk away with a brand story strategy, ideal customer profiles, and even website and social media profile copy. Plus, with this on demand course you get access to weekly Friday office hours with me. Yep, ask questions, get feedback, share new memes discover new insights to help your business shine. It’s insanely cost effective and extremely valuable to your business and goals. So check out the details@bit.ly slash BSB course that’s bi T dot L y slash V sb course or click the link in the show notes. See you on the other side. Welcome John southern to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m So excited to have you here to talk about customer engagement, and especially your fascinating background, as a military historian, and what lessons we can learn about leadership from that work. So an end customer engagement from that work. So welcome to the show.

John Southard 05:17

I’m excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Okay, so

Maria Ross 05:20

you have to tell us how you got from academic historian to customer engagement expert in corporate America, because that is not a linear leap, let’s talk about that. It

John Southard 05:31

really is like the most random abrupt career change. I obviously used to be a history professor in academia. And my last job in academia was kind of a visiting professor job. So it was only three years. And it was right after I got my PhD. And so the gold standard, of course, in academia is to find that tenure track job. And over the course of those three years that I had that temporary job, I just for the life of me could not find a tenure track job, which is a whole nother TED Talk. But I just decided, instead of moving my family halfway across the nation every one to three years looking for new jobs in academia, I said, I’m just going to quit academia. And as random as it is, jump into business, my undergrad degrees actually in business. But at that point, who cares, because it had been like, 15 years since I’d done anything. So when I moved, we were in Atlanta, moved from Atlanta back home, which is Texas. And that’s where my network was, and is. And so I made it my full time job to network and figure out, how do I explain how a professional historian generates revenue for a company. And that was really, really difficult to try to figure out, or people asked you the question, when you’re networking, what do you want to do? And I was like, I don’t know how I’d write that, actually. But I had a meeting with the CEO of this real estate investment company. And he happened to really enjoy military history. And so he was asking me about my dissertation and my book. And I explained to him, what this small group of Marines in Vietnam did, to become essentially best friends with these Vietnamese villagers, even though they absolutely hated these people before they met him. And he said, Wow, you just explained to me our new customer engagement strategy. I said, I did. And he said, Yes. And so long story short, I put together a plan, distilled everything we can talk about, of course, in a minute, everything that these Marines did, I distilled it down into a four part empathy framework, and pitched that as, here’s how you get to know the tenants of these buildings that you own, and get your occupancy occupancy up from like 60, or 70%, to 100%. And then that work six days, it was crazy how that worked. And so it was just that light bulb moment where I said, this is what I’m going to do is I say it’s the power of empathy learns through history. And so now, I’ve been in operations and strategy and change management, and innovation and doing human centered design and design thinking work. And it’s all based on what this group of Marines in Vietnam did, which I call one of the greatest yet unknown stories of empathy and world history. Well,

Maria Ross 08:42

and that’s, that’s amazing. And we should mention the name of the book is defend and befriend the US Marine Corps and combined action platoons in Vietnam. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about that story? I mean, obviously, folks can pick up the book and get all the juicy details, but give us the highlights and how it applies how that practice of empathy, first of all pointed out for us, because I think it’s hard for some people to see that in other realms, like business like the military, like all these places. And then let’s talk let’s, let’s parse that out into how that impacts a customer engagement strategy.

John Southard 09:17

Sure. First, I know that not everyone listening is an expert, or reads about American involvement Vietnam every day. So I’ll give a little bit of historical context here. And that first Vietnam War, we’re looking at the 1960s and early 70s. And for me, when I was getting my PhD and learning about American involvement in Vietnam, you know, you learn that the American GI interaction with the Vietnamese and especially the villagers was awful. And that’s putting it lightly. They hated these people. They saw them as subhuman. And if you can imagine a group of 19 year old Marines on patrol in Triple Canopy jungle, it’s 100 degrees and 1,000,000% humidity. And there’s bugs you’ve never seen before. And all these things and you’re walking through rivers, and now your feet are wet. And the America’s enemy in Vietnam was intentionally elusive and operated in these really small unit. So unlike World War Two, they operate in the small units, it wasn’t these two gigantic armies going at it. And so what happened is the Marines would be on patrol for days and sometimes weeks and not see one enemy. And then every once a while, they would engage in combat for like five minutes, and then the enemy would disappear into the jungle. But as you’re patrolling for days, you’re going to come across these Vietnamese villages. And these Marines assumed that the enemy were in the villages because they couldn’t find them anywhere else. But the problem in Vietnam was that America’s enemy dressed like civilians, they looked like civilians, they talked like civilians. So it was nearly impossible to differentiate friend from foe. And a lot of really unfortunate incidents happened as a result of that, because the frustration of not finding the enemy and then having your buddy killed and still not finding the enemy. That frustration, turned into hatred and turned into thoughts of these people as subhuman. And the crazy thing is that the Marine Corps early in the war in 1965, came in and said, the way that this war is being fought is not working. And instead of just patrolling the unpopulated jungles, and just trying to rack up enemy body count, we should measure success by the number of Vietnamese civilians that we can protect. And so the Marine Corps devised this program called the combined action program where they would send gas 19 year old Marines to live in Vietnamese villages. But of course, the problem is everything we just talked about, they hated these people, they saw them as subhuman. And what unfolded is, again, when I call the greatest unknown story of empathy, because these Marines show up and realize quickly, we have to live here, we have to abide by their rules, we have to understand their cultural do’s and don’ts because our personal survival literally depends on it. And the Marines started to my message, like my overarching messages experience, what they experienced, like that’s my definition of empathy within the context of these Marines. And that’s what they did, they lived a day in the life of these villagers to gain their respect, in hopes that they could gather intelligence about food the enemy really was and where they were going. So over the course of weeks, and months of living with these villagers, every day, they start to learn about their culture, and they started to respect their culture. And you start to see Marines helping the villagers celebrate the Tet holiday. And he saw the villagers helping the Marines celebrate their holidays, and the Marines start playing Vietnamese board games, and you start to see this interaction. And then you get to the point where the Marines start to understand what are like the big physical needs in the village. And so through interaction, they’re starting to build school houses, and they’re starting to build water wells. And it’s just this, you keep going. And by the end of those 12 months, they served, you have Marines that had gone from seeing people as subhuman, to literally dying for them. Like, because they love these people so much. And it was just this process of empathizing with these people to understand what their day was, like, gaining respect for them, and completely transforming their perception of not just 200 villagers in the village, but a higher culture.

14:03

So there’s so much to be out there. Because there’s, you know, there’s,

Maria Ross 14:08

it’s always been this idea of exposure to different groups or groups different from yourself, that is the gateway to empathy. And sometimes you do have to force people to get to know other people. And I’m, I’m sort of like, whatever leads people to empathy is a good thing. And that’s why, you know, I talk about the ROI of empathy of trying to get skeptics on board to say, well, empathy is good for our business, if that’s what gets you there to ultimately be in the room with other people and see their lives and listen to their perspectives and find a new way to think about something if that’s what it takes. Then ultimately, they’re going to transform from the outside in which it sounds like happened in this situation on a very large and you know, important scale, you know, a life or death scale. And so that is in and of itself amazing. And so when we talk about, even when we talk about dei in the workplace, this is why like getting us all into the same room is the first step, getting us in conversation with each other is the first step to, you know, bust false assumptions to get to know someone is human to all all of the things you just talked about. So that really struck me. The other thing that struck me is how this CEO saw the link between Yeah, a group hating another group and applying that to their customer strategy, which I think is very telling of companies that continue to see the customer as the enemy, even though you have no company without a customer. So why do you think that thinking even begins in a lot of companies? What Why are they seeing the customer as the enemy when, again, no customers no company?

John Southard 16:04

I think, and I’ll use him as an example. And that company is example. But But I think it speaks to the larger issue. And that there is just whether it’s intentional or not, there is this disconnection between leadership of a company and customers, and the cause of that disconnection could be all sorts of things, it could be that they’re making assumptions, it could be that they’ve got 5 million other things to do. And so the concept of empathizing with a group of people they don’t know, is just so foreign to them. And in this particular case, and talking to the CEO of this investment company, these apartments that they needed help with were very distressed apartments in low income areas, and they had no idea how to deal with the tenants in those neighborhoods, no clue, because all they had grown accustomed to was you buy a property, you change the carpet, you paint the walls, and you put flowers at the front, and then you raise rents. And so getting them to understand that it’s going to improve the customer experience and the tenant experience, if you actually focus on how do we improve the lives of the people and not the buildings surrounding them. And for me, getting that light switch to turn on for them to understand we do need empathy, business reasons, is you have to understand what drives them from a revenue standpoint, what gets them going, like if I say, hey, if we don’t do X, Y, and Z to empathize with these customers, your company is going to lose $20 million every year. And we know like, there was a recent study several years ago, where it was this massive research 34,000 consumers across more than 200 brands. And they found that the lack of empathy from those brands to consumers cost those companies $300 million every year.

Maria Ross 18:05

This is the thing, they’re This is not a soft skill. This is like a bottom line imperative. It’s costing you money, like, again, people get on me about how can you talk about empathy that way, you know, we need to be talking about the moral imperative of it, and I get it, but that argument has not worked for a lot of people. So if we need to tell them, you know, companies are losing what was it 30,000,003 100,000,300 300 million? Because of a lack of empathy, you need to start paying attention CEO like, yeah,

John Southard 18:35

and then once you get their ear, it’s explaining bow.

Maria Ross 18:39

Right? What does empathy look like in the business model? In, in our communications, in our training, in, you know, the type of people we hire? Like, are we hiring people that? Are we? Are we distilling them down to, you know, can do they have emotional intelligence? Can they connect with people? And if they can’t, are we willing to invest to close that gap?

John Southard 19:06

For that, you know, what, the fourth part of the empathy framework I talked about is, I call it preserving the culture. And what these Marines did is once they, once they established this culture within the villages, they wouldn’t let any other Marines in from the outside because they were concerned that if they brought in a guy who sees that the villagers are subhuman, Everything’s ruined. And so that’s one of the things that I preach to companies is okay. Now you have to hire people that believe in this and keep them or else one person can completely ruin the whole. Let’s

Maria Ross 19:43

back up a second. Let’s talk about those different levels. Real quick. You mentioned level four, but take us through quickly the different levels you talk about. Yeah, so

John Southard 19:50

it’s four parts to the empathy framework. The first is cultivate mutual respect. The second is deliver what I call overt needs. The third is deliver holdover needs. And then the fourth is preserved the trust. And I can explain any of those in greater detail if you’d like. Yeah,

Maria Ross 20:10

just real quickly give us give us a summary. Because we, you know, we want people to interact with your work and read your book and hiring you to speak. So let’s, let’s give them a little taste. Sure.

John Southard 20:21

So cultivate mutual respect, they all sound pretty self explanatory for the most part. But, and I’ll place it within the context of what the Marines did is, they showed up and one of the first things I realize is we have to respect them in the hopes that they respect us. And then once we can do that, in retrospect, we’re building this foundation of trust, but we still have to build this whole house. So by living a day in the life of these Vietnamese overseas villagers, had never even thought of the fact of an American much less than US Marine. experiencing what they experience on a daily basis to try to show them respect. And then the villager started inviting them to dinners, and you have all these things that happen. So there’s this cultivation of mutual respect that has to happen first.

Maria Ross 21:09

Okay, so let’s talk about that in the business context, how do you apply that, that part of the framework to a business,

John Southard 21:15

so I can give you two examples. One is this real estate company, where the first thing we did is, I knew that we had to show up not in great numbers to overwhelm tenants who had never seen us before. But in small groups show up. And were what they were taught like, they talk as much as you can, and just try to form relationships with them. It may take days and may take weeks. But it has to be consistent, you have to show up not once a week, but as often as you can, we did it every day. But if you can’t do that, that’s fine, as long as you’re consistent with it. And once you build that foundation of trust, like with these tenants, it’s just showing up and going in the same place every day, sitting down, interacting with people, finding the social butterflies, and getting them to start chatting with more people, then more people start talking to you, and you can start talking to them about your vision. This is why

Maria Ross 22:15

communities of customers are so important, and not just oh, we have a Facebook group for our customers, right that you leave to just 10 fend for itself. But really cultivating those connections with customers so that you can get that get that feedback. And so many companies are scared to talk to their customers, it just boggles my mind. So many executives, I should say, are scared to talk to their customers.

John Southard 22:39

Yeah. And in my experience, some of that is because the old adage, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. So we’re making money doing things a certain way. However, if you do things a certain way that doesn’t involve empathy, you’re going to plateau. And there’s another case in my business career where that’s exactly what happened. And they just needed to start a conversation with customers. And once they did that, things started to change. And I could move on to the next step in the framework. So

Maria Ross 23:12

that’s the first phase, what’s the second stage of the framework

John Southard 23:17

deliver overt needs. So these are needs that are pretty much plain as day to everyone involved? Meaning you or I could be dropped into a Vietnamese village in 1967. Give us a few days, and we’ll look around and go, Oh, yeah, they definitely need a school house, they definitely could use a pig. And they definitely could use a water well. So it’s like starting empathy, you start to understand the overt needs that are going to improve their day to day lives. And a lot of that just them telling you what they need. I don’t like quick wins. So let’s, once we’ve built that foundation of trust and mutual respect, now let’s start delivering them the over needs. And then once the overt needs are being met, you move on to delivering covert needs, which are the needs that the customer doesn’t even know that they have. And once you expose that to them, now you’ve gone from a foundation of trust to lifelong trust.

Maria Ross 24:21

And that’s the third stage as delivering, yes. So how do you how do you recommend that companies discover and articulate what those covert needs are if their customers don’t even know it’s a need? I’ve I’ve always been, I find Steve Jobs, a fascinating figure because when I wrote the empathy edge, I spoke to someone who worked directly with him. And he has got a horrible reputation as a mercurial leader and not the best people person as a leader. But when it came to to users when it came to customers, he was so in lockstep with them, and not just how they wanted to Use the product itself. But what did they want to accomplish? What were their lives? Like? What? What were their goals and build the product that they don’t even know they should be asking for? That’s why Apple is so innovative, because they’ve given us things we didn’t even envision. So how can I? How can sort of like your everyday company and everyday CEO, who says, I’m not Steve Jobs? How do they figure out what those with those

John Southard 25:27

covert needs are? What I think you just spoke to it is you have to think beyond just sending out surveys. And assuming that the responses you get tell you everything you need about your customer. And it goes back to the overarching message that I mentioned about my empathy framework, which is experience what they experience as best as you can. And this is where I really think design thinking is so important in pushing empathy forward in business, because and Steve Jobs, new design thinking as much as anyone, is it you can’t, you have to experience what the customer experiences with them. And when you do that, you start to see certain behaviors, and you start to see certain ways that they operate that you wouldn’t know if you weren’t there with them. And so, for the Marines, that meant medical attention, because they show up to these villages, you know, middle of nowhere Vietnam, and there’s no sanitation, they don’t take showers, there’s no electricity, there’s no refrigeration, there’s nothing. And their idea of medical attention, or hearing an open wound was boiling a spiderweb and water and then applying that. And what the Marines had to do is say, Okay, we care about these people now. And they need modern medical attention, but how do we deliver it to them. And because of their empathy, they knew how to deliver it to them, they just had to let the villagers come to them. So each Combined Action platoon had a medic, and he would sit there, again, consistency day after day after day. And over time, the villagers as trust was gained, showed up. And six months later, they’re suddenly taking aspirin, and they’re accepting the modernized medicine because that trust had been built in the covert need. medical attention was now an overt need. And the villagers now we’re getting these needs that they didn’t even realize that they had, because for hundreds of years, to no fault of their own, they thought all boiling spiderwebs and water work. And so in the same way, in the business world, it’s just applying that same concept. So for me with these apartments, it was living a day in the life of a tenant, riding the bus, it was the longest day ever, but riding a bus with her from one fast food job to the next. And that nine hours later, we’re back at the apartment. And you find out that if she would tell you up front, if I said, What do you need, she would say, I need a car. But then you start to ask questions, you start to experience a day in the life. And you figure out No, no, your need is a high school education, not a car. So once she realized, you know, that was this covert knee that she didn’t even realize that she had that changed everything because we were offering all the social services on site to improve their day to day lives. And then we started introducing G ed classes. Because you’re not getting to the root cause of your problem with a car, you’re probably actually at your problem.

Maria Ross 28:45

But how do you balance that with what you know, the mission of the company, there’s only so much they’re not in the business of providing education for router ends, right? So where do you draw the line of like, that’s all important information, but we have to focus on what our business is capable of delivering?

John Southard 29:05

Yeah, and that’s where the business case for empathy is really important and understanding

29:12

that in order to employ some

John Southard 29:15

type of empathetic strategy, or an empathy framework, the people at the top app to be involved. They have to it’s not going to work, probably if they’re not. And so as the person who understands the importance of empathy and wants to employ empathy, you have to give them a business case where regardless of what a mission is, or what their strategy is, it’s undeniable that they have to do these things rooted in empathy. In order to move forward as a business like you are losing money. You are you’re costing yourself revenue, if you’re not doing X, Y and Z grew,

Maria Ross 29:54

but I’m going to push back on that a little bit. Again, they’re not in the business of providing an edge Question for people there in the real estate business. So what? What could they do based on that information that they’re getting?

John Southard 30:07

So part of that was there, they weren’t paying for it. So they weren’t getting them an education because we partnered with local community leaders and nonprofits that came to the site to provide so that was all done. Got any extra cost

30:22

them, right, but a huge value add? Yes,

John Southard 30:26

exactly. What isn’t, then,

30:28

then you get to Okay.

John Southard 30:31

Once this happens, and now we start to see tenant staying longer and more tenant showing up. And now we’re at 90% occupancy, you know, like, Okay, let’s do more, let’s do more. And then you’re at 100% occupancy with a waiting list, right? Where are your prior there at 60%? Going? What do we do here? Well, and

Maria Ross 30:49

this is the thing that leads to viral word of mouth. Like, again, what I love about this is they didn’t have to, it wasn’t extra cost, it might have been extra effort and coordination, but uncovering that need, and then filling it. That’s what differentiates you from every other real estate company out there, every other apartment complex. So when people talk about, we have to find something to differentiate ourselves, start with what your customers need, start with empathy for the people that are already in your orbit, and figure out what you can do for them that makes sense financially, and resource wise, but it’s those little touches that those are the things everybody talks about, those are the things that get pressed, those are the things so this idea of executives, and you know, even senior marketing executives chasing something to be viral or chasing something to get word of mouth, just engage with empathy, fill the gap. And that will actually be your differentiating factor that will actually help you get the buzz that you seek. And, and it takes time. And it’s you can’t see the ROI of it right away. But we’ve got to get out of this short term thinking, because if you really want your company to be sustainable, we’ve got to have our eye on the longer term as well. And there might need to be investments made in something that you might not get an ROI from for three, four or five years down the road. And I know that there’s a lot of leaders who say, Well, I’m not going to be here then. So I don’t care. But those are not really the leaders you want to have.

John Southard 32:31

Exactly. And all those needs that customers have today, they’re going to change in six months or 12 hours. Yeah, and you’re not engaged with your customer and understanding their needs and their changing needs, which means you’re empathizing with them, then you’re just you’re going to fall behind your competition. You

Maria Ross 32:51

know, it’s really interesting, I’m gonna put a link to this episode, I interviewed the CEO and founder of hint, Kara, golden. And they do such a great job of making customer feedback, the linchpin of their growth strategy in terms of what new products should they develop distribution strategies, all the things. And because they are so close with their customers, they discovered use cases for their product that they had never thought possible. And it helped them increase their reach and increase their ability to message to different groups of people they never thought possible, they never would have had that information. Even with the best focus groups, they might have put together without the consistent feedback of customers, knowing that customers felt they could give feedback to the company, and having people that actually listened and actioned on that feedback. For sure. So briefly, you mentioned it at the beginning, but just refresh us on the fourth stage. Preserve

33:53

the trust.

John Southard 33:54

So you’ve gone through all of this effort to do the first three parts of the framework. Now, you can’t ruin it. By hiring someone who doesn’t fit that culture of empathy that you’re trying to create. It’s just for if you have if you’ve started to create that culture or create that strategy or project that involves empathy. And there’s a person existing in your company who doesn’t fit. HR people close your ears you got to get rid of it’s not worth keeping them around. They’re going to ruin it. And there’s plenty of examples in everyone’s careers. Have that one person, I don’t care if it’s a 20 person, startup toxic Rockstar, yeah, or a fortune 500 with a billion people working for it. Like it, there’s that one person that just stirs everything and can really create that mistrust. And it’s just not worth having around. And for the Marines, it was their lives, so we can’t risk having what they call the shitbird come into our community. And so what am I I say in order to preserve the trust, you have to kick out the ship birds.

Maria Ross 35:05

It’s true. And we’re not talking about people that don’t think like you or see the world like you or, you know, we’re not advocating to black diversity. What we’re saying is if people fundamentally don’t hold and align with those values, those are not going to be a good fit for the company. When we say cultural fit that can sometimes get mishandled. And we don’t mean cultural fit in terms of it’s not a cultural fit, just because everybody looks and sounds like you. It’s a cultural fit. If people can’t embrace the values of the organization, and see the customer and see each other, the way we want them to see people. And if you’re not on board with that, if you’re going to come in of like the customers the enemy, that’s probably no matter how good that person is at their job. Like you said, it’s going to cause more problems than benefits. Yeah, it’s

John Southard 35:59

one thing if someone doesn’t understand and needs to be trained and needs to be taught. That’s one thing, right? But it’s another thing, if the person understands or is trained, and is taught and still

36:13

doesn’t alone, is still burning everything down behaviors

John Southard 36:17

that you’re trying to cultivate. Absolutely, absolutely.

Maria Ross 36:21

So talk to us, as we wrap up, what are some final bits of advice you can give to some leaders or even folks who feel like they don’t have the authority to make changes? What would be one or two big changes you would advise a company to make in order to be in closer lockstep to their customers and engage their customers more fully?

36:49

I would say, you have to figure out a way to experience

John Southard 36:54

what they experienced. And I know that sounds so generic, but I think it’s so true. And there’s different ways that you can try to experience with the experience, it doesn’t mean you

37:05

have to live with clay. What are some ideas?

John Southard 37:08

So there’s things like contextual inquiry, now we’re getting to like design thinking methods for empathy, where you can just observe somebody and ask them questions along the way. Or even in our hybrid virtual world, there’s ways that you can empathize with people. If you’re in Canada, and they’re in Mexico, you can do diaries, where you go over every day, pay at the end of the day, write down what your pain points were in all these things. And then let’s review them. And so the first thing is you have to try to figure out what’s the first step for me that I have to take to cultivate mutual respect with my customers. And it’s, it’s not hard, I just think what’s the first thing I need to do to start that process?

Maria Ross 37:52

Well, John, this has been some really great stuff. So more to come, highly recommend folks check you out and check out the book, all your links will be in the show notes if people are interested in finding out more about your work and hiring you to speak but where for folks on the go listening on the go, where’s a good spot for them to connect with you or find out more about your work?

John Southard 38:13

Your spots would be LinkedIn, John southern party, um, there’s not many John Suthers out there. So she you should be able to find me. And then my website is John Southern speaks.com. So either one of those are the best ways to get a hold of me and to see more about what I do. Great.

Maria Ross 38:31

And thank you so much for your time and your insights today. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do. Please rate review and share with a colleague or friend. Don’t forget to connect with me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Sarah R. Moore: It’s Possible to Parent AND Lead without Punishment- the Brain Science Behind It

Parenting has so many parallels with team leadership and after today’s episode, you’ll be better equipped to raise healthy, emotionally connected kids AND be a stronger leader that enables your team to collaborate and perform more effectively. Today, my guest parenting coach Sarah R. Moore shares insights from her new book Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science, and Better Behavior.

Sarah is the founder of Dandelion Seeds Positive Parenting and today, she shares her story of leveraging more than 20 years in Corporate America and had no idea how well her executive negotiation skills would serve her in parenting! We discuss what peaceful discipline means, why empathy in parenting is more important than people realize, and why brain science tells us that punishments or punitive leadership fails or backfires and doesn’t help you achieve your goals. We also talk about the power of vulnerability and why it may look very different from what you may think. Throughout, we talk about the parallels between applying these principles as parents and as organizational leaders.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

For children and adults, it is only possible to learn when there is a sense of emotional safety in the body.
There are ways to set our children and employees up for success with empathy, no matter what age they are. Speaking with curiosity and neutrality rather than accusation can help to foster the feeling of safety.
Every human on the planet wants to be viewed positively and have a sense of belonging and community.
Story can give people a sense of safety, even in business. And everyone can tell those stories, even if they don’t feel creative or like they’re good at it.

“If we lead with punishment, the learning part of the brain shuts off. So (they) might be able to go through the motions in the moment, but there’s not going to be any lasting change in behavior because they’re literally not in a place where they can assimilate new information.”

— Sarah R. Moore

Episode Reference:

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About Sarah R. Moore: Parenting Coach, Speaker, Author, Peaceful Discipline

Sarah R. Moore is best-selling author of Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science, and Better Behavior, and the founder of Dandelion Seeds Positive Parenting. She’s a public speaker, armchair neuroscientist, and most importantly, a Mama. She’s a lifelong learner with training in child development, trauma recovery, interpersonal neurobiology, and improv comedy. As a certified Master Trainer in conscious parenting, she helps bring JOY, EASE, and CONNECTION back to families around the globe. Her work has been featured in HuffPost, Scary Mommy, Motherly, Yahoo!, Her View from Home, and The Natural Parent Magazine, among others. She worked in corporate America for 20 years and had no idea how well her executive negotiation skills would serve her in parenting.

Connect with Sarah R. Moore:

Dandelion Seeds Positive Parenting: https://dandelion-seeds.com/

Book: Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science, and Better Behavior

X: https://twitter.com/DandelionSeeds5

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-r-moore-b0535b7/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DandelionSeedsPositiveParenting/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dandelionseedspositiveliving/

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cashflow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. parenting has so many parallels with team leadership. And after today’s episode, you’ll be both better equipped to raise healthy, emotionally connected kids and be a stronger leader that enables your team to collaborate and perform more effectively. Today, my guest is parenting coach Sarah are more and she shares insights from her new book, peaceful discipline, story teaching brain science and better behavior. Sarah is the founder of dandelion seeds, positive parenting, she’s a public speaker, armchair neuroscientist, and most importantly, a mama. She’s a lifelong learner with training in child development, trauma, recovery, interpersonal neurobiology, and improv comedy. As a certified master trainer in conscious parenting. She helps bring joy, ease and connection back to families around the globe. Her work has been featured in HuffPo, scary mommy and the natural parent magazine, among others. Today, Sarah shares her story of leveraging more than 20 years in corporate America, and how she had no idea how well her executive negotiation skills would serve her and parenting. We discuss what peaceful discipline means, why empathy and parenting is more important than people realize, and why brain science tells us that punishments or punitive leadership fails or backfires and doesn’t help you achieve your goals. We also talk about the power of vulnerability, and why it may look very different than what you think. Throughout we talk about those parallels between applying these principles as parents and as organizational leaders. I selfishly loved this conversation both as a parent and an empathy speaker and leadership trainer. And I know you will walk away with so many great nuggets, take a listen. Quick offer for you. Listen up all your marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, all of you trying to connect and engage with an audience to grow your impact and revenue. I’m all about strengthening empathy to achieve radical success. And this all started for me in my wheelhouse of marketing. See, I realized the key to attracting and engaging the right customers is all about understanding them seeing things from their point of view, empathy is a marketer’s superpower, if it’s wielded responsibly, so after running two successful real time cohorts, I now opening up my brandstory breakthrough course as an on demand offering. Take it when you want how you want for as long as you want five modules of videos and playbooks designed to help you articulate your goals. Understand your customers, define your different and land on your perfect brand story and marketing message. So you stand out and attract that perfect fit audience. Marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about empathy, elevating the truth of your story. And in this on demand course, you’ll learn the exact steps that my past brand clients have gone through to craft a clear and compelling and consistent brand message that guides everything you do. You’ll walk away with a brand story strategy, ideal customer profiles, and even website and social media profile copy. Plus, with this on demand course you get access to weekly Friday office hours with me. Yep, ask questions, get feedback, share new memes discover new insights to help your business shine. It’s insanely cost effective and extremely valuable to your business and goals. So check out the details@bit.ly slash VSP course, that’s bi T dot L y slash BSB course, or click the link in the show notes. See you on the other side. Hello, Sarah Moore, welcome to the empathy edge podcast, I can tell you as mom of a nine year old, I have been eager to have this conversation with you about children and empathy, and also how we can apply some of those lessons to us adults in the room. So welcome.

Sarah R. Moore 05:24

Thank you for having me. I appreciate you.

Maria Ross 05:26

So tell us a little bit about just briefly about your story. How did you get to this work of working with parents and being a parent coach? And speaking about positive parenting?

Sarah R. Moore 05:38

Yeah, honestly, I never saw it coming. I spent 20 years in corporate America, doing corporate America things I spent time with, you know, all of these executives, I was in leadership roles. I had a lot of very adult interactions with executive negotiation, persuasions, sandeels, effective communications, all of these things. And I had so much business sprain, if you will, that after a while, I realized that I needed to do a little bit of something to bring some more joy and creativity back into my life. So at night, when I was done working, I went to improv comedy school. And we the funny thing is, I didn’t realize that every single one of these experiences was setting me up for parenting. Because as it turns out, executive negotiation, guess who the best negotiators are their five year olds?

Maria Ross 06:34

Oh, my gosh, my husband always says it’s like negotiating with terrorists. Yeah.

Sarah R. Moore 06:39

Exactly. Yeah. So I didn’t realize that most of my formative years in corporate America, were actually preparing me for parenting. Now, that being said, when I was about to deliver my child, I was about two days away from becoming a mom. And I was a so called older and mother, everyone loves that terminology.

Maria Ross 06:56

Yes, magnetically.

Sarah R. Moore 06:58

I remember this executive vice president leaning over to me in a meeting and saying, and to his credit, he was a great guy, I still think really highly of him. But he leaned over to me and said, Hey, Sarah, just so you know, I know you’re planning to take the full three months off. And, you know, in our culture, we can collectively roll our eyes and say that goes by so quickly. And but he’s just saying, you know, you’re not going to miss a beat here. I will be feeding you work under the radar within 48 hours of you having that baby, so you won’t have to miss anything. And that was really my first clue that maybe this path wasn’t going to serve me in the long

Maria Ross 07:37

Yeah. Yeah. So there’s a reason we need the three months off. Yeah, for sure.

Sarah R. Moore 07:43

Fast forward, I made it through my maternity leave my full maternity leave, you know, all whopping three months without really plugging in very much. And at the end of that time, I knew that I needed to ship something, because I was going to crumble. I could not be 150% at work, and 150% at home, which of course is the minimum requirement of any brand new parent with a child who doesn’t sleep for more than 20 minutes at a stretch. And I talked with my pediatrician at my child’s early Wilczek. And he said, By the way, how sleep going before you go back to work. And I said, Well, honestly, she’s up every couple of months or every couple of hours. But this is normal, and holistically, she’s getting plenty of sleep, so I’m not too concerned about it. And he looked me in the eye and he said, Sarah, you’re ridiculous. Don’t ever go to her when she cries. She’s manipulating you. It’ll let me know when you’re ready to get serious about parenting. Well, jaw dropped moment I was in. But she’s tiny. And of course, I want to be responsive to her. And all of my nervous system just rose in that moment. And I really couldn’t even respond to him. And why when I started researching that, indeed, we should be responding to our young children. And guess what, we actually should have empathy and understanding and connection with our older children, too. Yes, I dove into the research for my own parenting, the more I realized, this guy is working with outdated information. Now, it’s the switch pediatricians. But number two, I want to help empower other parents and caregivers so that when they hear advice like this, they feel like, I know that I can push back on this. Because whether it be me Thera or somebody else who does this work doesn’t have to be me. They can say, I’m not going to take that advice, because I know better. So that was really my first shift into I needed a career change because I did indeed get serious about parenting not in the way that he implied. But in my own brand of being passionate about supporting parents and caregivers to be and I responsive all of these things, and went and got all of the credentials and everything I would need. So I wouldn’t just be some random mama on the internet. And people could say It was with a trustworthy source I, she knows what she’s talking about Zalora it really came from a passion to support not only my own child, but also to make this shift in being available to the extent that I could be based on what we know about brain science, child development, all of these good things that we know under.

Maria Ross 10:18

Right. And I would say your lane is positive parenting and with the new book, which again, is called peaceful discipline story, teaching brain science and better behavior. Can you talk to us a little bit? Because I think there’s going to be we’re going to weave in a lot of lessons here on how to apply this to adults, especially in your relationships at the workplace, but your relationships as an adult with other adults, because quite frankly, many adults act like Children and Toddlers a lot of the time. And so, talk to us about what peaceful discipline means, because it does sound a little bit like an oxymoron. I’d be happy to Yeah, I intentionally

Sarah R. Moore 10:56

chose this name. Because when I say the word discipline that most of us have a fairly negative association. We have a finger wagging? Yeah. Yes, oh, that means punishment. Oh, that means somebody who’s in trouble. Oh, that means correction? Well, in truth, if we go back to the original definition of discipline, it means to teach. If someone is a disciple of something, it means that they are a student of something they are learning. So the initial definition, it was not at all associated with punishment. And I really want to bring us back to that poor. And the peaceful part is intentional, for two reasons. Number one is when I think how do I want to teach my child using discipline to mean to teach, how do I want to teach? Well, I want to be peaceful about it. Bringing it back to Brain science, we know that the learning part of the brain for children as well as for adults, is only available to learn when the body feels a sense of emotional safety. As a parent, my job is to create emotional safety, so that my child can learn. And then even more importantly, the flip side of what I’m saying is it has to be perceived as peaceful by my child, because it isn’t about my intent. It’s about their perception. And so it’s a good reminder to all of us that we want our children to perceive us as being peaceful, benevolent teachers, rather than harsh, harsh punishers, or whatever other you know, methods parents commonly use, because we simply didn’t have the the research that we do now to know that this is actually a much more effective way of teaching.

Maria Ross 12:46

Well, and I imagined to especially just looking at my own parenting journey with my nine year old, it’s also about setting that model. And again, you can apply this to the workplace of, of a leader needs to set the model and set the tone for the team, so that the team feels safe, the team understands what’s acceptable, what’s not acceptable. And also they feel connected enough to continue to learn to continue to ask questions, to take risks, to innovate, to do all these things. And that’s what we want for our children as well. And part of that journey is, like you said, sort of having empathy for your child, and looking at the world through from their perspective. And so why is empathy and parenting actually more important than most people realize?

Sarah R. Moore 13:37

Because empathy is really what creates that emotional safety. Everybody has this deep desire to simply feel felt, as Dr. Daniel J. Siegel calls it, he talks about do you just do get me? Do you understand me and when we will lead with empathy when we feel when we help our child children feel that we are simply curious about their perspective, we want to understand them. And they, Oh, if you want to understand me, if you care enough, to dig deeper to learn what’s going on for me, I feel emotionally safe and not with you. That number one, I’m going to tell you what’s actually going on for me, and especially older children, although little children can practice this too. And it’s not emotionally safe enough that I can run to you whenever I have a problem, rather than running away from you and hiding from you because I’m afraid of how you’ll react. And from that place of emotional safety. We can brainstorm with our kids. We can work together we can collaborate, we can find Win Win solutions to problems, where our children feel like my big person is not out to get me. They’re out to support me with no matter what comes up in life. And what a paradigm shift. This is. As I say it out loud. I feel more peaceful. My inner child feels more peaceful. Just

Maria Ross 14:53

what that well, I’m just imagining not in a work context. Like I’ve had, I’ve had managers who were Not who lead with fear who lead with punitive action. And you just didn’t never knew where you stood. And you never knew what you could contribute. And you were so worried about watching your back, that you weren’t enjoying the work, you weren’t contributing to the work because you actually weren’t focused 100% on making the work better. And so I see all these parallels now that I’m a parent of the leaders that I’ve had that have been really effective, applying a lot of the lessons you’re talking about and creating that environment that you’re talking about. But also that concept of just, I need to feel like you get me I need to feel like I am seen, heard and valued. And this is what I’m always educating teams on is that it doesn’t mean I agree with you. And it doesn’t mean that we’re going to take the course of action you want me to take, it just means we’re going to have a productive conversation and at least you’re going to feel heard. Yes, exactly. And we really are empowered to get to the root cause of any problems. We may have

Sarah R. Moore 16:02

the adult example for a second and then extrapolate it across parenting, let’s say. And by the way, this hypothetical situation may or may not come from my own corporate life, many years, it was in my you know, but when hypothetical me it was in my early 20s. And in a new sales job, I remember, I think it was my very first month in sales. I didn’t make quota. And I felt terrible about it. But I just I honestly didn’t know what I was doing yet. I didn’t know how to do it. And we had this person who was two levels higher than I was at the time. And she said, Tell you what, Sarah, I’m going to invite you and a couple of the other new trainees who didn’t make quota to have breakfast with me so we can unpack some of what’s going on. So we went to the breakfast, we showed up hungry as we would at this 6:30am breakfast, or whatever it was. And this is an incredible example of horrible management. She showed up literally, with moldy food, nothing that was edible whatsoever. And she proceeded to say, You know what, I bet you’re disappointed in your breakfast. Just like I’m disappointed in your sales. Oh, my gosh, yes, exactly. I never want to feel the way that you made me feel just like you probably never want to feel this way again, either. Again, this is like classic, what not to do. Oh, my goodness. But you know, it had she simply said, Help me understand what is it that you would like to learn? What would support you? Do you need more information about the products so that you can sell them better? Do you need some more training, you know, that would have helped me grow and thrive. But instead, all I did was say I want out of this job ASAP, I got out. So there’s that and we had the parental equivalent of, you know, go to your room, and taking all your devices, you know, Santos not going to come like all these ridiculous things that parents say sometimes that do nothing other than make the children, number one resent their parents. And number two, make them want to emotionally retreat from their name. Now, the flip side of this, of course, and I don’t need to go too detailed, because everybody can imagine. But I have also had, by the way, in the same company, many years later, I quit. And then I came back. I had one of the best bosses I have ever had. And from the get go, he would come and sit in my office with me. And number one start with things like how was your weekend? Is anything fun going on for you? How can I support you? When you mentioned your mom’s coming to town? How did that go? You know, I felt like a real person to him. I wanted so much to do well for him, because he was such a great guy and such a great leader. Parenting equivalent, of course, is the parent who says, Hey, I saw you were struggling today. What was happening, what was going on for you helped me understand I want to hear your side story. Because that emotional safety and creating a child who then says, I want to do well for my parent, right? So that I they believe that I am a whole human I’m a whole person worthy of love and empathy and respect and compassion above and beyond this one tricky thing that might have happened earlier today.

Maria Ross 19:16

I have a question about that about what is it? What do you do, whether it’s a child or an adult, but we can talk specifically about a child? When you try to open that dialogue? And you’re met with? I don’t know, nothing? It’s fine. Like what is the appropriate response of the parent or the leader in that situation? Where you’re trying to connect and you’re trying to let them tell you the information but you’re getting nothing

Sarah R. Moore 19:44

really in question. Couple of things can be going on. First of all, the younger the child, the more trouble they will have articulating what was happening because young children and I talk about this in peaceful discipline that young children are largely driven by impulses they literally do not have the part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex fully developed yet, and they won’t until they’re between 20 I’m sorry, 25 and 30 years old. So it takes many, many years in most cases till they’re out of the house before that part of the brain is even fully developed. Well, what does that part of the brain do? It plans, it thinks about the consequences of actions, it considers others feelings, we can talk about the empathy piece a little bit. But it does all of these things that little kids simply are not equipped to do because they literally do not have the neural wiring there quite yet. And so our primary step, especially with little kids, is to reset our expectations, and say, they probably won’t be able to tell me because odds are pretty good, that whatever they did, they did because of a lack of developmentally normal impulse control. Instead, what I can do is, let bygones be bygones. But it doesn’t mean I need to not address it, what I can do is, let’s say there’s a child who struggles with hitting, what I can do is I can say, you know, I’m pretty sure there’s a Daniel Tiger episode that addresses hitting, let’s watch that. And here, I can be careful not to shame them or blame them or anything, but I can through the lens of empathy. Say, I’m curious if earlier today, at school, you felt kind of angry, like Daniel Tiger felt in the show. And you help the child make the connection between Oh, feelings, and actions. And over time, you can simply especially when the child is emotionally regulated, you can help prepare them. And I talk a lot in the book about how to do this proactively, you can help prepare them for when you feel angry, again, here are some things you can do, again, blaming or shaming way, but in a way that is supportive of the child because guess what, it doesn’t want to go around hitting people either nobody wakes up and think, who can I hit today, right? Shouldn’t say how old you are. So we can really help it set our children up for success. Now, let’s pretend that it’s an older child who seems to be clamming up, they just seem to not want to talk about it. And this is a little bit of a tough pill to swallow for a lot of parents, because it can stem from a couple of things. Number one, the child may not feel emotionally regulated enough to talk about it, it might be too raw, too fresh in their minds, they might just not feel safe, emotionally, to go there. So one of the things we can do is know that especially with older children, we don’t have to address things immediately, like we did when they were little we can give it a day. And we can say hey, that thing that happened yesterday, I’m curious about it. Notice my wording here too. I’m curious, that lands so much more safely in a child’s nervous system, then why on earth did you do that thing? Don’t you know, that’s wrong, all of the narratives that honestly many of us heard growing up, just because we didn’t know as much back then thing we can do is neutrally approach our child with the story of empathy. It might have nothing to do with the actual child and the actual situation at a surface level. Instead, I might come in and say, you know, I don’t know if I’ve ever told you about this before. But there was a time when I was 16 years old. And I didn’t have my driver’s license yet. But my friend gave me driver driving lessons. And here’s what happened, you know, positively or negatively or whatever. But we can share something about ourselves that help our children feel like oh, they might actually understand, but not least going back to the importance of our words and our approach. Our children may be operating from a place of our history together. Instead, we might be a peaceful parent today, we might be using everything I talked about and peaceful discipline, we might have taken the courses done already, that are, you know, available on the internet these days. But if our child has a history of a lack of safety with us, they might say I am afraid to be transparent with you. It’s simply going to take time to build trust that No, once they tell you, you aren’t going to turn around and punish them or shame them or whatever and instead say, What do you want to do about this? How can we work together in the incident says of them feeling emotionally safe with you, the more likely they will be over time to divulge more that information rather than clamming up

Maria Ross 24:53

well and also this is so I mean, I just can’t help seeing the parallels because it is As a parent, you can’t just flip the switch and the child’s going to trust you the next day, just because you’ve decided to read your wonderful book, and change your ways. And it’s the same kind of thing when I’m talking to leaders, if if they’ve had negative patterns, whether intentional or unintentional, and they’re committed to leading in a different way, and leading in a more people centered way, they can’t just come into work one day and be like, right, so now I’m going to be the empathetic boss. And so, you know, hopefully, you’re all psychologically safe, my doors always open, come talk to me. And then they leave the room and everyone’s going, what just happened, right, and it never quite happens that way. But I think there is an expectation that leaders have. And so I always invite them to get vulnerable and let their teams know they’re working on this. And actually, the parallel to parenthood is I do that with my son. You know, when I’m working on my impulse control, and my you know, my yelling, and my arguing, I say, Look, honey, I’m, I’m working on this, just like, I want you to work on this, too, let’s work on this together. And at least he knows what I’m doing. And he knows and you know, we’re not going to be perfect, I’m not going to be perfect, you’re not going to be perfect. It’s a process. And it doesn’t solve every problem for us. I mean, I do not want to leave the impression that we’re, you know, 100% on the parenting thing. But it’s this idea, I think that leaders can adopt that to have, you can’t just flip a switch with a child, or with an employee, that you are going to change your ways there has to you have to build that trust with people and you and what I hear you saying is, if we acknowledge it, if we talk about it, and if we give it time, the more credits we rack up in the bank account, the more the trust will build is that kind of an accurate way of of looking at it

Sarah R. Moore 26:46

100% accurate. And we have to know from a psychology perspective as well, that people subconsciously will continue to do behavior and sometimes even amp up their behavior until they reach a familiar response. Because it’s what they know, even if it’s not optimal, even if it’s unhealthy. People say but that’s what I know. Therefore, I’m going to act out in that way. So especially with kids or with employees, they might seem like, hey, you know, you’re getting more gentle, but I don’t know this version of you. So I’m going to act out more this is happening at a subconscious level, right? You need all the more isn’t for us to throw in the towel and say, Well, nevermind is well, this fiscal discipline didn’t work, I’m going to forget about it. Instead, they need us to lean in with that exact vulnerability that you’re talking about and saying, and acknowledging, I know this is a shift, and I’m going to get it wrong sometimes. But I’m working on this, this and this. And here’s why. And here are the specifics of what I’m going to change and what it might look like for us. People have that emotional safety, of understanding the transformations that we are trying to make, whether we’re parents, whether we’re bosses or whatever, it really helps them trust us because we were willing to be vulnerable. Vulnerability is a scary thing. But it’s one of the bravest and strongest things we can do.

Maria Ross 28:15

Absolutely. And I think, you know, people miss perceived vulnerability a lot in terms of it means I’m going to show up as a parent or a leader, and just completely act like I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m going to lose all respect, and no one’s going to have faith in me. But really, you have to be very strong and confident to admit, I don’t know, or I am working on this. And you can I always say you can do it, you can be confidently vulnerable. There’s a way to express that and have an exchange, where the other person doesn’t feel like you’re going off the rails or your child doesn’t feel like you’re going off the rails and you know, you’ve just given up on everything. But that you’re saying, hey, this, I’m very conscious of this. This is very intentional. And this is what I’m working on. And that’s from a place of power that’s from a place of strength. And so when people say, Well, I don’t want to be an empathetic leader, because I’ll be seen as weak. I’m like, Do you know how much strength it actually takes to be an empathetic leader or parent? Can we talk briefly about why? Because I think this is so important for both parenting and leading in an organization is from a brain science perspective. Why do so many punishments end up failing or backfiring? Is it because of what you said earlier about we go for the reaction we know or why when we think that a punishment will be a deterrent enough to change someone’s behavior. What does brain science actually tell us?

Sarah R. Moore 29:42

It tells us a couple of things harkening back to that emotional safety that I mentioned before. If we lead with punishment, the learning part of the brain shuts off. So the child might be able to go through the motions in the moment, but there’s not going to be any lasting change and child’s behavior, because they are not, they’re literally not in a place where they can assimilate new information. Instead, it’s a fear based response, they go into fight or flight, and nobody thrives and fight or flight, nor can we learn at our best, you know, you can imagine trying to learn how to, you know, God forbid, why this example come to me, you try to fly a plane under duress, you’ve never flown a plane before. That’s not a situation anybody wants to be in. And I think, look, bivalent of what we sometimes ask our children to do. And when punish them, we take an emotionally safe approach, when we lead with curiosity, nonviolent communication, empathy, all of these things, children say, number one, again, subconscious level, I want to do well for you because I feel safe with you. Number two, every human on the planet wants to be connected emotionally and in a positive place with other humans. So when we now that we can create this virtuous cycle, with other humans in our lives, and good will continue to be get good. So we create that emotional safety. And it’s going to be the antidote to the brain shutting off instead, the brain, you know, will turn on and say, how do I learn more from you, because I want more of this. In my reward centers get activated, because it feels good to be in community with somebody else, whether it’s a parent child, whether it’s organization. So that sense of community, that sense of belonging, that sense of trust, and the other Nubbins is, the learning part of the brain has to have an emotional anchor that is positive, in order to want to replicate future positive behavior. And I talk about some strategies in the book to do exactly that. But let’s say for example, I have a comic and a nine year old, because you’ve got a nine year old, a nine year old who is not wanting to go to bed at night. I don’t know if that’s your reality ever. But I noticed that a lot of parents, nine year old doesn’t want to go to bed, it’s a struggle. And we want to change this behavior because everybody needs their sleep, and so on and so forth. What we can do is we can say, Yeah, number one, I’m starting with emotional validation, it makes sense that you want to stay awake, because everybody else is awake, and it’s more fun to be awake than it is to be asleep. Not to mention, it’s a transition. And we think only little kids struggle with transitions. Well guess what, we all struggle with transitions. That’s why many of us are still scrolling our phones at 1030 at night when we should be good. So we get to validate the feelings to help the child feel like okay, emotional safety, and I want to pay attention here. Number two, we can work to create Win Win scenarios, we can have a positive negotiation, whether it’s business or child, we can have a positive negotiation where the child or the adult feels emotionally invested in the outcome. Tell me child, how can I say this in a non threatening non shaming and blaming way? How do you feel on the nights when you don’t get enough sleep? What’s that like? For you help me understand your perspective. What would make going to bed feel more peaceful to you? You know, you start asking that question to get the child to think about what would actually feel good in my body, as opposed to this into intellectual knowledge. That’s purely intellectual, of Oh, leap because they say so. Right? I create this emotional anchor of I want this thing. And I want this relationship. Therefore I am naturally drawn toward the behavior that’s going to work for everybody. And it’s much more likely to stick because then the child has a positive association with the interaction, rather than a fear based one. So good, so good.

Maria Ross 33:51

I’m selfishly soaking all this up for myself. But I know my listeners will love this as well. So as we kind of wrap up, I’d like you to address a question that you talk about, which is story teaching. What is it? And does it actually work for all ages?

Sarah R. Moore 34:06

It actually does work for all ages, as Tao street teaching is my brand, if you will, of storytelling, storytelling has been used for basically, as long as humans have existed to help teach to help create narratives in the very literal sense that we can record and pass board, historically through the generations. But honestly, we use stories all the time. Now, lest anybody get scared and think, oh, no, I’m not creative. This isn’t going to be my thing. I have very good news for you. Every single one of us has a part of our brain called the hippocampus. And it is the brain’s natural storyteller. It’s what will remind me some day that I really liked your glasses, and that’s a great color on you and you create emotional safety for me and in all of these things that my brain is recording around our conversation right now. It’s a story. It’s a simple story, but it’s a story nonetheless, my brain is recording this so that someday, six months a year from now I see your name. And I say, I like her, I want to talk to her again, this is something that every single child, adult, you know, older adult, we all have it, it does not ever expire. And I realized I’m going to be sensitive to people with memory loss. That’s not what I’m referring to. But for those of us who aren’t dealing with that this is very accessible. We can use stories, in all walks of life, we can use them for things that have happened in the past that we want to make sense of, to help release trauma to help release toxic stress, we can use them in the moment to help make sense of our stories and figure out how we want situations to go. And use them proactively to help prepare ourselves or others for things that are to come. So very quick example, let’s say I’ve got a child who’s going off to a new school for the first time, rather than simply saying, Oh, you’ll have a blast, don’t worry about it have fun, good luck, which leaves the child emotionally floundering. And yeah, you can help paint a mental picture. This is how big your class is going to be. This is where the classroom is going to be. How will you know? If you see somebody who looks like they might be a friend? How will you know when that’s going to feel emotionally safe to start a conversation with that person? And what might you say, How’s that gonna go, you start creating enough of a narrative around the situation, that you create that safety that the child is needing in this example, to say, I feel like I know what to expect. So my anxiety can go down, my worry can go down, my stress can go down, because I’ve got a plan. And like it past, present, and future, and I outlined in the book, how to how to do it, but all those scenarios, but essentially, it’s using our brain for optimal outcomes. And it’s so much more effective, particularly for behavioral change, or behavioral modification in a very broad sense, not just behavior modification in the, you know, psychological sense, so to speak, and so much more emotionally accessible, to create that safety that everybody needs to reduce the stress load, and increased resilience. And that’s why it’s so great for all ages, because we all still need it.

Maria Ross 37:20

We all need it. And it’s how it’s how we remember things. It’s how we know this is something we want to be part of. And a lot of my work that in brand strategy, for example, is about elevating the true story, not the fake story of a business or an organization so people can understand what to expect, what is the promise that you’re making? How can I feel safe, investing with you spending time with you doing all those things? That’s what we mean by the story of a business as well. So I’m loving, loving all these parallels, I am going to actually ask you one more question, which I think is a big question that’s very top of mind for parents. When is empathy in children developmentally accessible to them? Because I know, as someone who speaks about empathy all the time, there’s the stretches where I worry, you know, is my son really learning empathy? Is he is he ready to learn empathy? Or is he too self centered at this point? You know, how? How can you help advise parents listening on when to expect empathy from a child? And when you know, sort of when can they relax about you know, your child will not be a sociopath? You know, can they? Can they learn it? Do some children need to have it nurtured more than others? In terms of like nature versus nurture? Can

Sarah R. Moore 38:43

you talk a little bit about all of that? Happy to so developmentally, even newborn babies show glimmers of empathy from time to time, for example, if you have a newborn baby who starts to cry, and there are other newborn babies in the room, some of those other newborn babies will start to cry too. And that is coming from the empathy center of the brain. Right now, that being said, Nobody panic. I’m gonna give a very quick answer. Empathy doesn’t fully develop until adulthood. Period, hard stuff, we start to see it grow a little bit more in the early elementary years. Usually ages six to nine are aware we start to see it a little bit more often. This is not Sara talking. This is the research talking. A 10 has to develop faster in girls than it does in boys. So again, that’s not stereo speak and I don’t want to be jet out it but just says, is that a result of socialization or is that actually biological? From from the research biological? Yeah, when it’s biological that because from an evolutionary perspective, if you look at what boys were exposed acted to do at a young age, it was go help get the food, where empathy probably actually would have been a detriment to them if they had too much empathy when they were responsible for getting the food, whereas the little girls historically were involved in taking care of the younger siblings. So that’s where that stems from biologic t. Now, you will see another jump in empathy around the teen years. And what I’m trying to illustrate here is that it’s kind of like a stepladder. It keeps going up. It’s not like we have a child and we say, well, they’re 15. Therefore they should be fully empathetic by now. Not at all there are moments where I lack empathy, and I’m not

Maria Ross 40:43

well 100% 100%.

Sarah R. Moore 40:48

Grass to your question about do we need to help nurture some children more than others? I’m gonna say 100% of children benefit from us modeling empathy, us talking about empathy, reading books about empathy, making it a part of our daily dialogue. And I really mean that daily dialogue. This was not something we bring up. Only when there’s a crisis, or somebody’s going through something horrific. It can be we’re reading a story, what do you care about child, which character is that and why we can have it in such simple ways. So that when the bigger situations do come up, it’s already kind of built into their vernacular. So I’m gonna go with all kids all days, all the time, nobody’s gonna suffer bird having talked about empathy too much, right? Oh, I

Maria Ross 41:35

love that so much. And I think that gives hope to a lot of people, including me about the fact that, you know, your child is not a sociopath right now, just because they are very self focused as a child. In fact,

Sarah R. Moore 41:47

I want to touch on that super quickly as we hear children, again, from a historical perspective, we’re supposed to be 100%, self centered. Because back in the day, before we had walls and roofs and things like that, we were at much higher risk of attack from neighboring nations, or animals or whatever. So children had to learn to fend for themselves very, very early. Well, guess what? That stuck. And there’s nothing wrong with a child who is quote, unquote, self centered. They’re just doing what biology told them to do. And it takes time to learn the other stuff. So I wanted to address that too, and say, there’s nothing wrong with your kids. Again, not a sociopath at this point. This is developmentally normal, and in fact, healthy. Love it, love it.

Maria Ross 42:35

And you know, as I was talking about, it’s never too late to learn empathy either, because it biologically is innate in all of us as human beings. It’s just for some people, that muscle may have atrophied over time, or because of their childhood or their family or their workplace. And so the good news is, you can go back to the empathy gym at any time. But what I am very hopeful about what I mentioned at the end of the empathy edge, leaving it on a very hopeful note for the future, is that this generation of young children, they’re talking so much more about empathy, and emotional connection and mental health. And I’m just excited to see where that generation goes in terms of the impact they’re going to have on culture and society.

Sarah R. Moore 43:20

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. This is snowballing in the very best direction. It’s complete, in a great way, and it’s honestly I think, part of healing the world. Totally.

Maria Ross 43:29

I’m with you. Well, this has been such a great conversation. I could talk to you more, but we’re running out of time. So Sarah, we’re gonna have all your links in the show notes. But please tell folks, where’s the best place they can learn more about you or get in touch with you? Sure. So

Sarah R. Moore 43:43

my website dandelion seeds.com. There’s a hyphen dandelion hyphen, def BA, you said you’d have it now my English is failing me, but I accept my mistakes. Dan seeds.com is where you can find my website. I’m on all the socials that you’ll have. And of course, the book is peaceful discipline by Sarah, middle initial are more if you Google, Sarah Maurya get 10 million of my closest friends. So middle initial art, you’re more likely to find me. I love

Maria Ross 44:11

it. And we will make sure we put that in the episode title for you as well. And I assume the book is available wherever books are available for people. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time and for your insights. I know this will be very beneficial for a lot of my listeners. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard, you know what to do, rate and review and share with a colleague or friend. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. booked me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

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