Podcast Episodes Archive - Page 3 of 23 - Red Slice | Speaker, Author, Leadership Trainer

Dr. Nicole Price: From Engineer to Empathy Revolutionary

How do you get analytical, process-driven people like engineers, lawyers, and doctors to see the value of empathy and human connection? It’s not that they CAN’T embrace it. It’s just that they see the world and how to solve problems differently.

My guest, Dr. Nicole Price believes two things: 1) everyone wants to do a good job and 2) empathetic leadership is critical to helping to leverage that desire. Today we talk about how she became an empathy revolutionary, how to open up a broader path to empathy, and why diversity doesn’t work when saddled by apathy. Dr. Price shares how a traumatic event opened up her capacity to connect through emotion and better impact performance – and why she now helps others understand that those who are emotional can also be logical. We discuss how to link accountability to commitment and why her role as a translator helps logical thinkers understand they don’t have an empathy deficit, but that there are multiple roads to empathy that are a better fit for the way they experience the world.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

When people understand people better, it transforms them from the outside in. They don’t need to be practicing empathy for the right reason initially, but it will change most people eventually.
It is not unusual for doctors, lawyers, and engineers to think they are better than those who are not at the same level as them. This is a barrier to empathy, but one that can be overcome.
Empathy is a method of information gathering. For some, they will be attracted to that rather than the emotions of empathy. There is no wrong way to begin your practice of empathy.

“Engineers are taught to listen for accuracy. But when I’m trying to be empathetic, listening for accuracy is not helpful to me. I’m supposed to be listening for understanding.”

— Dr. Nicole Price

Episode References:

Dr. Nicole Price, CEO, Lively Paradox and author of Spark the Heart: Engineering Empathy in Your Organization

Dr. Nicole Price believes two things: 1) everyone wants to do a good job 2) empathetic leadership is critical to helping to leverage that desire. She is an empathy revolutionary who teaches leaders how to build more empathy in organizations. Her clients range from manufacturing facilities to school districts. She is the author of seven books centered on being an exceptional leader—most notably Spark the Heart: Engineering Empathy in Your Organization.

Connect with Dr. Nicole Price:

Email: nicole@livelyparadox.com

Lively Paradox: drnicoleprice.com

X: twitter.com/DrNicolePrice

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nicoledeniseprice

Facebook: facebook.com/nicole.denise.price

Instagram: instagram.com/drnicoleprice

Threads: threads.net/@drnicoleprice

Book: Spark the Heart: Engineering Empathy in Your Organization

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com

PRE-SALE SPECIAL! Pre-order 1 to 99 copies of Maria’s new book, The Empathy Dilemma for your leaders, exec team, (or yourself?!) and GET 30%! bit.ly/TEDSpecialPresale Offer ends August 27, 2024!

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Dr. Nicole Price 02:47

welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I’ve been looking forward to it too.

Maria Ross 02:50

So we want to hear your story and how you got to this work, and especially how an engineer becomes an empathy, revolutionary,

Dr. Nicole Price 02:59

kicking and screaming. No doubt. Interestingly enough, I have spent most of my professional career working, helping difference to get along. So people on teams who don’t understand each other, how do I help them to just embrace the different ways people think their lived experiences so that the team can gel and make progress on their objectives. But somewhere along that journey, I realized that none of this was going to work if people were saddled with apathy. So I felt like intellectually, I felt like someone needed to embrace this idea of empathy and teach it to technical professionals. But almost all of the work that I was running into involved a bunch of exercises and things that engineers just will not do that. They are not going to sit on the grass in empathy circles, and listen, without any kind of understanding for what that’s going to deliver. Although I’m here for nine day retreats, I’m here for all of those kinds of things. But it was truly just an academic exercise for me until I had a traumatic life event. And in my traumatic life event as these things happen to do. I started to feel people, it was almost like, I would walk around in the world. And it was something written across my forehead that said, tell me that you are suffering. And like I had never had it before. I certainly did not have it before. But after the grief that I had been suppressing related to my mother’s traumatic death, she was killed by a drunk driver and the murder trial associated with that. Just me getting in touch with some of my own feelings, I think, started to project out into the universe that I was a portal that was willing to receive. I think I have that language now, but I did not have the language when it first started know that oh, my gosh, I had no idea why this was happening. And then just short, just briefly. I had been An amazing employee in my organization. But after I came back after a pretty sizable leave of absence, my leader who wasn’t very nice person. And so I didn’t want anybody to think that she was not nice and kind she was, she asked me about my mom and how I was doing. And I shared, but then immediately after that, she pulled out her legal pad and was like, Okay, let’s talk about your projects. And there was something about the timing of that, that just felt off. And so I had my personal experience, but I also had my professional experience, just both of them at the same time saying, we need an we need an empathy revolution. But I absolutely thought that somebody else should be doing. I think that some shouldn’t be me. Right? Every time I went to try to say, Hey, someone should be doing this, for this particular group of people, the answer kept coming back that what if it is you maybe it should be shouldn’t be you? Hmm,

Maria Ross 06:03

wow, that is powerful. And I, you know, relatable, I think for a lot of people that sometimes we have this preconceived notion of what empathy is, and the role that it plays in our lives, and then something traumatic or catastrophic happens. And I believe we do give off this energy when we’ve been through it, that people can sense and they sort of find a kindred spirit. And it’s really interesting that you so descriptively, articulated that of like walking around in the world, like you had something on your forehead that said, I will listen or bring it on, or whatever it was. And so I think that there is an energy around that. And it’s so interesting to me, that you, you come from the traditional left brain analytical world. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that those folks can’t tap into empathy or aren’t empathetic, I think sometimes there’s a really negative stereotype out there. But I also think that in that, in that world that they operate, sometimes it’s not really understanding what it is and what it isn’t. And, like your work, my work is all about helping people understand it from a very non scary and non threatening point of view. So that’s why I’m so drawn to your work. So I want to talk a little bit about why do you think that path that you went on, and that epiphany that you had is so important to the broader conversation of empathy? Did it help you realize something was missing in the empathy conversation and wasn’t reaching? Everyone it could reach? Like, what? What was that journey? Like?

Dr. Nicole Price 07:32

Yeah, I think for me, it’s translation. So engineers, are actually taught not to be empathetic. And people are actually shocked when I say that. But if you make one item, and then I have to make 50 million of that item, by the end of the week, I can’t personalize people and think about their individual situations and stories. I’ve got 50 million parks, I have to get out by the end of the week. And so we’re taught to think in systems, not individuals, in fact, individuals get in the way of a well oiled process. You need standardization in order to get 50 million of anything out by the end of the week. And what I was not aware of was that, that Systems Thinking caused me not to think of consider people as individuals, they did become cogs in wheel. So even though we would all say people are not just cogs and wheels, if Sue is sick that day, I need to be able to put Tom in her spot, and Tom needs to be able to just keep going because I have to get 50 million parts out. And one I was not aware of that. So what I did have had no awareness of it. And to me, like I said earlier, while I am completely open to a spiritual path, many different ways of learning information. I think I understand the difference between kindness and niceness and empathy and all the different types. Most people are just like, hey, can empathy be taught or not? Do you have it or not? Like, what does it look like to practice it or not? Why should I care? How do I hold these people accountable and still be empathetic? That’s what people say. And so I just said, Alright, how can I translate? How can I be a person who translates really important nuance? I think it doesn’t matter that effective empathy doesn’t come from the same part of the brain is cognitive empathy. Absolutely. That matters. And most of my clients don’t care. They just want to know, how am I gonna get my 50 million parts out at the end of the week? And how are people going to feel connected to me? And how do I keep them engaged and want to keep them motivated? And so instead of arguing against that, I thought, how can I translate this in a way that people will receive it? Well,

Maria Ross 09:46

let’s talk about that. Because you wrote sparked the heart and engineering empathy in your organization. So what are some of the ways that you help folks that and I don’t want to I am a little hesitant to use this word but that are Lee worry of embracing empathy because they think it’s going to detract from the system from the goal that they have to accomplish. What is that? That blueprint idea that you’re providing for people? Can you share a little teaser with us? Because we obviously want folks to get the book, but what what is the thinking behind creating that blueprint? And how does it help those people?

Dr. Nicole Price 10:20

I think Leary is the right word. And let me tell you why I think that I have had clients tell me that we can’t even name my session, anything related to empathy, because they don’t believe people will come. So Leary is kind of a nice word.

Maria Ross 10:36

I think that a squared of Yeah.

Dr. Nicole Price 10:40

Yeah. And I, what I did in the book, which I think is masterful, I’m biased, is I shared all the ways, the practical ways that I did not demonstrate empathy as an engineer, and as a leadership, development expert, and also as a leader inside large corporation, was important for me to just describe what it could be what it could look like without putting anybody else on Front Street, but showing how I have dropped the ball on being an empathetic leader, and how we can all be different. So one of the one of the examples that I share is specifically about being in a parking lot at one of my manufacturing clients. And I actually, when I was even telling that story in the book, had to check myself because I wasn’t being empathetic to their situation, they had decided that they were going to do a shift overlap, when there was an overlap. Turns out there weren’t going to be enough parking spots for the people coming to the plant. But I don’t believe everyone knew that. So of course, there’s some people when they get there, there’s nowhere to park. And so they were parking in the visitor thought, well, if you park in the visitor lot, a certain number of times your car’s gonna get towed. So the day I was there, a lady’s car gets towed. And I just happened to be in the room, when they’re talking about, well, why are these people just like, not like parking in the visitor spot? And I asked the question, you know, Curiosity is an important part of being empathetic. Well, are there enough spots? One guy says, of course, and another guy says, well, actually, for about 15 minutes, no. Well, none of the senior leaders knew that. And then I’m a visitor, there’s 25, visitor spots available and open. Long story short, this woman was car getting towed was going to be about $250 to her. And then the next day, you know, there’s an additional fee, and it just keeps. So she left she asked her union leader if she could leave to go get her car. And she did. Well, that stopped the line. Well, stopping the line cost millions of dollars. And so she was going to get fired. And I was there, trying to figure out, okay, what is the best empathy exercise here, and I call it the empathy walk I just made, I just borrow that term. But it comes from the engineering concept of the gimble walk, which means to go and see the real place. And in practical terms, it just basically means if you’re going to cut somebody’s hair, they should probably be in the chair. So you cannot change any process without going to see at first. This was an exercise in understanding poverty for people who actually have jobs. So I just asked, Would anybody in the room be willing to share? What are the kinds of things that could make you late for work if you didn’t have money, and the people in the room had been working with these folks for sometimes decades. So these are people that they know, but they’ve never thought about the fact that they were born or maybe had lived in, in poverty at some. So there’s a woman talking about what her life was like after divorce, there was a person who had grown up where her parents were working, but they were just, they’re poor. And they shared things like having your lights turned off. And so you don’t, you know, you got to figure out where you’re gonna go take a shower, if you want to take a hot one, things like the babysitter didn’t come our school was ran close, or you went outside, you had a flat or you went outside and somebody had siphoned all your gas out. I mean, they were just sharing story after story. And so then we just walked through, what does that mean, then if you happen to get to work, and it’s the 15 minutes where there’s the overlap, what are you going to do? And so at the end of that, like empathy, walk just in our minds, the plant manager decided to pay to get the woman’s car out and to also, you know, restore her her job. And I think those are kind of the practical ways in which I’m trying to get people to buy into what does it look like to understand what somebody else is thinking, feeling, believing and experiencing? Because before we started, you and I were talking about how people can use empathy for bad reasons. I grew up a car To the street from a pennant, and people are surprised to know that but I regularly tell people that in fact, I did a TED talk on pimps are very empathetic. And people are usually shocked to know this. But how do you get someone to do what a pimp is trying to get them to do without understanding what they think, what they feel? What, what motivates them, who you can pimp it, who you can’t pin, in order to do that, for any length of time, that career requires you to understand people very well. It’s just a more tactical form of cognitive empathy. And I’m just trying to get people who have some shred of compassion, to embrace these ideas and these concepts for good. Yeah, they do. I think it can change the way we work, the way we learn the way we just experienced the world.

Maria Ross 15:49

So I love this because I’ve mentioned this a few times on the show, I did a TEDx talk about how to trick leaders into being more empathetic, I taught I called it how to Trojan horse leaders into being empathetic. And it’s the whole reason I wrote the empathy edge, it was the business case, for the ROI of empathy. And that rubs a lot of sensitive people the wrong way, or people that are naturally empathetic and can tap into their empathy, because they think, oh, that’s manipulative, that’s, you know, we should be empathetic, because it’s the right thing to do. And I agree with that, except it’s not working. Like the mineral imperative doesn’t work for many people. And so if we have to show them, this is the marketing part coming in, if we have to show people what’s in it for them, if they embrace empathy, so be it because there are lots of, you know, tangible, ROI pieces that come out of it. And once they embrace empathy, they’re doing it. It doesn’t matter how they got there, if they’re seeing, you know, if they see my point of view, and they respond in a way that recognizes my point of view, it doesn’t matter why they’re doing it, I was in a hospital that, you know, followed a very empathetic philosophy of care, patient and family centered care, they did it to lower costs and increased profits. But the experience to me as a patient was still amazing. I still felt seen, I felt heard, I felt valued. And so it kind of didn’t matter to me. But more importantly, and I’m sure you’ve seen this in your career, getting people there and getting them in the room to have the conversation or see the other point of view, there’s no way that can’t change them. There’s no way that they can’t walk away from that experience going, Ah, there’s something to this. Let me try it again. Let me have more interactions this way. So do you agree, it sounds like you and I are kindred spirits on the like whatever it takes to get

Dr. Nicole Price 17:41

empathy? He absolutely agree. And I and I was over here nodding. And I know the listeners can’t see this. But it’s just like, think about the fact that pimps are using this preachers are using this politicians are using this people shampoo peddlers are using what we think feel and believe and experience in order to motivate us to do what they want. And I had I had not considered this actually. Because I had a life changing event that caused me to also be more sensitive, that I considered that oh, there are people who use empathy for bad reasons. I was given a keynote. And a gentleman walked up to me at the hand and he said, I’m doing everything that you say, but I’m not doing it. Because I care about people. I’m doing it because I’m trying to make a sale. And that was when I had my epiphany like, Oh, yes, you can absolutely do everything I’m saying and you can use it for good, or it’s like a hammer being used to build or to break. Yeah. And I see leaders struggling all the time, not able to naturally get people to be engaged or use hospital systems, patient outcomes just aren’t what we need them to be. Well, who is not going to be smarter about people, if they can understand people better, right? For me, let’s get them there. And when people understand people better eventually I think sometimes the feeling comes later.

Maria Ross 19:11

I agree. I think it transforms them from the outside in because I spoke in the in the first book about being around executives, when I worked at for a cable network, being around executives at a cable affiliate, who were doing a community event at a at a local food bank. They were doing it for PR. They were doing it for press, they were doing it for customers, but there they were stocking shelves in a food bank, and having conversations with the customers with the clients of the food bank to learn what their life was like. And many of them decided to keep volunteering with the food bank after that day. Many of them had gotten exposed to people that they never would have been exposed to before. And so it did transform them. And does it happen all the time? No, there’s definitely going to be people that are like I’m going to use this today. it’d be late everybody. But that doesn’t mean we all give up on it. Right? So I want to get back to the book and this idea of other examples that you have of how you’re bringing, like, what do you think is the unique challenge with engineers? Other than what you’ve talked about? And where do they, you know, barring a traumatic event for them? Where is the epiphany for them, where they start to go, oh, I don’t need to be so leery of these human connections of considering the individual, I can still get my work done well, and balance performance with people. Where do you see that unlocking for engineers? And why do they have a unique challenge in that

Dr. Nicole Price 20:42

the doctors, lawyers and engineers have some of the most difficult training in terms of just the profession? And what does it take to get through the education that’s required to be in those professions? So you’re dealing with people who are incredibly smart, typically not. Now, of course, there are exceptions to this rule. And whether this is on purpose or not, the general population is just not thinking in the same way as doctors, lawyers and engineers. And so when you’re like, hey, I have designed this thing, you, I made this, I was prescribed this medicine, just take it. I have told you what the statute is like, do you want to sue or not? Like the process? Is this follow it or not? And when people don’t do what you’re thinking, subconsciously, you might go? Not smart? And then how do you end up showing up for people who you think are not smart. And I don’t believe any of this is conscious? I don’t think so. But I think you end up thinking that you’re better than talking down to people, not necessarily wanting to be in their circles. My experience in a manufacturing plant was that the engineers set at the tables by them, like differently separate and apart from manufacturing workers are the were our offices where we’re like looking over the manufacturing floor with glass, and it’s beautiful. The manufacturing floor is hot and sweaty, and dusty, and dirty, even just structurally how we were engaging with each other was very, very different. And so I think we shouldn’t just think that people are inherently empathetic or not, how do we create these people who lack empathy is part of the our responsibility, I believe, for us to to own. But when I think about Patrick Lencioni, his work around The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, many leaders automatically go to how do I hold these people accountable. And it was Lencioni, who I first heard, say, you have to go back down the pyramid, the you have to make sure that you have created a trusting environment where people feel like they can be heard and have healthy conflict. And then you can ask people for commitment. And then you can hold people accountable to what they have committed to. But you can’t come in to people who don’t trust you, you don’t hear anything, they have to say if they say something you don’t listen, they’ve never even given you their commitment to buy into your mission or vision or other, but you want to hold them accountable, you’ll always see your results kind of faltering. And typically, I can get engineers to buy into a logical point, a logical idea. And I don’t take the moral compass route, right? In fact, I say, overtly, listen, there are two ways to learn empathy. One is painful, and one is not. And I took the painful route by learning through life experience. I’m here today to help talk about what it looks like to learn it, you know, hearing, right, that’s one method for engineers, doctors and lawyers I use but the second one is, I never hold people accountable to something just because I think it’s the right thing to do. I do think it’s the right thing to do. But I asked people to consider the three or five three to five leaders they appreciate they love, they think they’re and they’re amazing leaders. And then I asked them to describe those leader, give me 10 characteristics of those three to five leaders, like, take the time and write down 10 characteristics. And what do you notice? Once you start looking at your list? Are those people just hard nosed and hard drivers? Typically not? They have empathetic competencies, and that’s why I like working for them. That alone Maria has usually causes my entire audience to shift and say, Okay, let me hear what you have to say. Because you’re right. The people I follow are empathetic and their leadership approach, right. So I never walk in and say you need to learn empathy, because you never, right. Right. And

Maria Ross 24:48

it’s also just that understanding of like we kind of referred to what it’s not, you know, it isn’t. It isn’t all holding hands and crying on the floor together. It isn’t it It isn’t even agreeing with people. And I think that gives folks a huge weight. It takes a huge weight off their shoulders, because of all the things they think Empathy means. That’s what they’re fighting against. And when they understand like you, I talk about empathy as a method of information gathering, if I’m going to have a productive conversation, or I’m going to move a project forward, if someone if we, if we have tension or conflict, I need to understand that person’s context to understand why they think the way they do and get information. Yeah. And so again, it’s like when you talk to those hard driving folks, it’s like, don’t look at it as a touchy feely emotion, look at it as a method of information gathering. They’re like, Oh, okay, that makes sense to me. Yeah, that’s something I can do. Right? Now,

Dr. Nicole Price 25:48

if I have a lot of time, I also try to push this idea and I am trying to push it. If I’m just being honest, that just because you have emotions, that does not make you a less logical person. Because as an engineer, I used to think that if I were emoting that I was not being logical. And it was life altering for me to realize that I’m not a more logical being because I haven’t cried since I was eight. That actually, I’m not as smart because I’m not taking in the information from other people. If I can look at you and know that you’re smiling, but you’re not happy. That has been critically important to me just being a smarter human.

Maria Ross 26:34

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s why so much of this requires us to you, the first step is getting present within ourselves. And in the new book that’s coming out in the fall, the empathy dilemma, that’s the first step is self awareness. What am I bringing to the interaction? What am I bringing to the table? What, what is preoccupying my mind, so I can’t make space to notice your facial expressions, or notice the tone of your voice. Or notice those little things that are going to give me cues on the conversation that we’re having and the interaction that we’re having.

Dr. Nicole Price 27:08

If I had one request of most of my HR partners, it would be to stop assuming that some people just can’t do empathy. And I have air quotes over here, because of their profession. Yes, I have not met many people who don’t have spouses or partners who don’t have children who don’t have siblings. And if we can help them build this competency at work, it can help transform their lives outside of work. Yep. And I think I have been shocked at the number of HR professionals who think techies just can’t get it, like they just can’t get this. What I will say is probably more true is that they can’t get doing these kinds of things for moral reasons, that they’re, you

Maria Ross 27:55

know, and, and also, they just approach it differently. I mean, we had a whole I was on a group discussion yesterday with a group of empathy experts. And we were being presented to by a woman who was presenting a systems based model of empathy. And it’s this idea that, yes, empathy is innate to human beings. But that’s also very, that’s also not the whole story. It’s we all tap into empathy in different ways. And your way of tapping into empathy may look different from mine may look different from someone else. And so there’s no sort of one right way to help you have that connection with someone else. And for some people, it is a little bit more analytical and logical for other people, it is more squishy, and emotional, and woowoo, and whatever you want to call it, but it doesn’t mean it’s wrong, right.

Dr. Nicole Price 28:44

And then we’re going to show up with the same amount of diversity as we do with every other competency in the world. It was helpful to me to learn that I already had high levels of somatic empathy that I can’t watch. I can’t watch a, a even a fictional boxing match that I feel it in my butt like I can’t watch that. Because, again, a life of you’re not very empathetic. You make decisions with logic and reason you don’t make it. I mean, even the Myers Briggs test says, Nicole price does not make decisions based on empathy and compassion. That’s what the tests that I made. Yeah. And so you might start thinking that you have some kind of deficit and i That’s why I love assessments that help people see that there are multiple types of empathy and you don’t have to have 100% of any different kind. There are many bridges to get to being able to understand people better. It was helpful to me to also read this book called never split the difference by Chris Voss, he’s the hostage negotiator. He talks about cognitive empathy, and he renamed it as tactical empathy. Because trying to understand a hostage, a terrorist so well, then by then but they have released the hostages, they don’t We don’t have to kill them. There’s a way to do both. And now I’m like a master negotiator, centering empathy, to be able to save lives. Mm hmm. I think we can use empathy to get a couple of parts out by then

Maria Ross 30:21

to solve a budget crisis. Yeah, exactly. I don’t you know, it’s, that’s my whole thing is this idea of everyone looking so binary at it. And it’s like, it’s empathy. I choose empathy or efficiency. I choose empathy or high performance, I choose empathy or sustainability. It’s both and, and, and the funny part. And I don’t know if you found this in your research, but when I was researching the new book that’s coming, the conversations I had with leaders about and pulling out what were the five pillars, the five common threads to what helps you be both and most of them didn’t realize they were doing it. Many of them were like, Yeah, I don’t know that I call myself an empathetic leader. And but then you talk to them about how they interact with their team. And that is the definition of empathy. So sometimes even the most empathetic people don’t label themselves as empathetic. Because it is a little bit more innate for them. Well, like, of course, I’m going to get to know my team because I have to motivate and inspire them to do what I need them to do. Like, they often have to reflect and think, Well, why? Why just that work? Why am I good at that. And that humility, is so important to embracing empathy, because humility blocks empathy, because it says, We have nothing left to learn. If you don’t have humility, we have I have nothing left to learn. I know everything. My perspective is the right perspective. It’s the humility that unlocks the questioning. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole Price 31:51

And thinking that you’re smarter than everyone else, that lack of awareness that there’s many different types of intelligence, too. Yeah. I love what you’re doing, because it did it. You mentioning it made me think of something else that I had to work on. And that was how engineers are taught to listen, we’re taught to listen for accuracy. Because when you’re not accurate, the bomb doesn’t go off when it’s supposed to. There’s a little bit too much of an active ingredient in your, your medicine, I have to be accurate. But when I’m trying to be empathetic, listening for accuracy is not helpful to me. I’m supposed to be listening for understanding. Someone might be inaccurate in how they’re explaining something to me. They might say something happened Thursday instead of Wednesday. It’s not my time to interrogate does it even matter that it was Thursday instead of Wednesday? Engineers struggle with that lawyers and judges, that difference means you’re lying. And now I can’t trust you, you know. And so it took the biggest gap I had to close was shifting from listening for accuracy to listening for understanding, that probably took me almost five years to become good at because my mind goes well, it wasn’t Wednesday.

Maria Ross 33:11

I love that you just brought this up, because I am the world’s most horrible author and researcher in terms of citing the data that I have researched. Because if you ask me what the percentage was on that particular study, I will say something like I think it was like 60%. I don’t have my notes in front of me. But I know that the end result was x. And I would probably drive a room of engineers crazy or lawyers crazy, because, but it’s just so funny that that’s actually something I’ve realized about myself, that I just don’t cite numbers, like my brain just doesn’t grasp it unless I’ve completely completely memorized it. What I grasp is the is the point it’s making non the actual numbers and what you said was so important that for certain groups of people that erodes trust, and

Dr. Nicole Price 34:00

I’ll tell you my employee engagement score scores to the 10th of a percentage from 2005.

Maria Ross 34:07

So I need part of your brain, I need to like, meld that into me.

Dr. Nicole Price 34:12

But it’s not helpful, right? Like when I think about my, my relationship with my son, if he says, Hey, we didn’t spend any time together last week, and I go, What are you talking about? We were just on a plane together, we went to Atlanta, and I’m hurting it our relationship because what he means is he wants to spend more time with me. And my ability to be able to hear what he’s trying to say. One of my first coaches told me I needed to learn how to read the tea leaves. I didn’t even know what he meant, but that’s what he’s talking about. Like what is the message behind the message and I just listened naturally. Listen to what you say. I can repeat back exactly what you say. And then conversation I want to have but that is not empathetic listening.

Maria Ross 35:01

No. It is reflective listening, though. So there is there is some benefit to that of, can you reflect back to someone what they’ve said in a way that’s non judgmental, and and just, you know, so what I hear you saying in the conflict that we’re having, let’s just make sure I understood what you said. You said the sky is purple and frogs are falling out of the sky. Is that Is that accurate? Then at least if you can confirm the accuracy, accuracy for me, you can feel heard like, Oh, she did hear me. And also I’m not saying it dripping with judgment of just like, here’s all the reasons you’re wrong. Before we get to that. Let me just make sure I heard you. Right. So there’s, there’s kind of a time and place in empathy for that. But it can’t end with that is what I hear you saying? Right? I

Dr. Nicole Price 35:47

have to know that whatever it is, you’re trying to tell me about the purple frogs falling from this?

Maria Ross 35:55

You know, what is? What is the point? What is your experience? And what is the point that you’re trying to make on that? I love that. So can you give us what you think? Or can you share with us as we wrap up, I guess I should say, what is one thing that you wish more people understood about empathy, especially if they are under the belief that they can never be an empathetic person? Or, or that it doesn’t have value for them to be an empathetic person?

Dr. Nicole Price 36:23

You know, if there was one thing that I want people to know, is that you? Can I say two things? Maria? Yes,

Maria Ross 36:29

absolutely. It’s there’s that accuracy coming in.

Dr. Nicole Price 36:35

It’s still one is that empathy can be taught, which means it can be learned, that’s one. Two, is it’s almost like anything else you you’re trying to do. That’s difficult. It’s going to take time. And and so when I hear my clients are like, Okay, we’re gonna do this empathy class. And then they expect that

Maria Ross 36:55

they will, I’m sure is going to be transformed. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole Price 36:59

I don’t know if you heard me say it took me almost five years to learn how to listen in this empathetic way. But the person who was working with me on it, I think he knew our relationship was going to be much longer than five years. So why wouldn’t he? And when I think about tenure at it, some organizations, there’s still some organizations that have some pretty lengthy tenure of their employee. And if you’re gonna have people for 10 years, if it takes them three years to learn something, isn’t that beautiful? Last seven, like, like working on this? And what does it look like if I start building your empathy muscle while you work for me, when you go someplace else, you’re in a better position than when you came to me. And I would love for us to embrace that idea that this isn’t, this is not something that you’re going to see a drastic change overnight.

Maria Ross 37:50

Well, I love I had a past guest, Rhonda George Denniston. She’s the Chief Learning Officer at TBWA, worldwide. And she spoke about the fact that which and she started out as an executive assistant at that company. And what she loves about their investment in people is precisely that, like, we know, you’re probably not going to be here for your whole career. But it doesn’t mean we don’t invest in you. It doesn’t mean we don’t contribute to your professional development, because we want you to look back at this job and think this is, this is the best job I ever had. This is where I had the most impact. And they they’re realistic about the fact that they’re not necessarily going to have lifers there. But they’re not expecting instant transformation. And they’re not saying we’re not going to invest in you, because you’re going to leave in three years anyway, for the three years that they’re there. They want them to be at their best. And they want them to produce their best work, which just makes bottom line sense, right? So all these organizations that are in the rush to cut costs are cutting, whether it’s empathy training, or professional development or communication training. They’re doing themselves a longer term disservice. And I understand that difficult choices have to be made. But to think that that’s a nice to have and not a must have. just boggles my mind, because every day, your interactions with people are dictating whether the company makes money or loses money. Absolutely.

Dr. Nicole Price 39:15

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And when you as a marketing person, you know, it’s good for people to have had a good experience when they worked for you. It’s perfect for the brand.

Maria Ross 39:25

Mm hmm, absolutely. Okay, so this is awesome. This has been I could talk to you for another hour, but we’re running out of time. The book is called spark the heart engineering empathy in your organization. So any of my listeners who think they can’t embrace empathy or shouldn’t embrace empathy, I want you to pick up Dr. Nicole Price’s book, we will have all your links in the show notes. And I just want to thank you for your time today and your insights and for being in conversation with me. For folks that are listening while they’re working out. Where’s the one best place they can find out more

Dr. Nicole Price 39:57

about your work, Dr. Nicole price.com

Maria Ross 39:59

I’m easy enough. I love it. Thank you so much.

Dr. Nicole Price 40:02

It’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you. And

Maria Ross 40:04

thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, leave a rating or review and share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access, show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Amy Koford: Hypnosis for Self-Awareness and Overcoming Trauma

We talk a lot about the importance of self-awareness and self-care in helping you be a more empathetic and effective leader. In fact, those are two of my five pillars in my book, The Empathy Dilemma because they are vital to being a more effective leader and human. You may think of the traditional modalities, but have you considered hypnosis?

Today, my guest is Amy Koford. We discuss how Amy got into this work, the power she’s discovered in how hypnosis works, why it transforms lives, and she busts some myths about hypnosis. Amy talks about how trauma can show up, how to take traumatic memories and replace the associated emotions, how people show up as work based on who they are and what they’ve been through, and how you can embrace forgiveness through empathy to rise above past trauma. She’ll share how you can show up as the leader and colleague you want to be.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Everyone can be hypnotized, it may take different forms for some people, but it does not negate the potential benefits.
Insecurities are a bigger deal than many realize. Many successful people are extremely insecure and those insecurities push them to prove themselves to others and fill the void of the insecurities, but still be in turmoil inside.
A lack of empathy often causes many social misunderstandings and team dysfunctions, but the root of that is usually fear.

“People don’t want to grow up to be a jerk or to be an annoying person at the workplace. That’s just not what they really want to be…When we’re in the workplace, it’s important to understand that people are the way they are for reasons and very good reasons. And that helps you have empathy.”

— Amy Koford

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge episodes on trauma:

Katharine Manning: How Trauma Impacts Performance – And What Smart Leaders Can Do

Charna Cassell: Recognizing And Regulating Trauma At Work – Yours And Others

About Amy Koford, the Happy Hypnotist & author of Hardwired to Rise

Amy, The Happy Hypnotist has been a professional hypnotist, public speaker, hypnosis show performer and more for several years to transform the lives of numerous people. She’s the creator of The Trauma Protocol which takes individuals from traumatized to optimized in just weeks. Amy is the author of, Hardwired to Rise: Eye-Opening Truths about How Fear Holds You Back, Causes Suffering – and How to Liberate Yourself to Have the Thriving Life You Deserve.

She has traveled the world to attend hypnosis conferences and has been trained, mentored, certified, and taught mastery skills from the top hypnotists on the planet. Amy specializes in happiness and peace with various techniques that are effective in helping people resolve and let go of the past and change their center to become positive, confident, empowered individuals who know their amazing abilities to live their best lives.

Connect with Amy:

Amy the Happy Hypnotist: amykoford.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amy-koford-012637184

Facebook: facebook.com/amythehappyhypnotist

Instagram: instagram.com/amythehappyhypnotist

Threads: threads.net/@amykoford

Book: Hardwired to Rise: Eye-Opening Truths about How Fear Holds You Back, Causes Suffering – and How to Liberate Yourself to Have the Thriving Life You Deserve

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Amy Koford 03:03

Thank you so much. It’s great to be here, Maria.

Maria Ross 03:06

So before we get into the nuts and bolts, let’s talk a little bit about how you got into this work. What is your story and what makes you so passionate about the work you’re doing? Helping people through hypnotism but also helping people overcome trauma and embrace empathy?

Amy Koford 03:21

Thank you so much. Yeah, my story is probably similar to many out there where I was frustrated with not getting results and seeking and seeking I’ve had, you know, illnesses. In the past I’ve had times where I was struggling emotionally, and the resources that I was turning to were simply not cutting it for me it just wasn’t working. So years ago, when I was struggling, I went to hypnotist as a client, and it worked for me. And so I turned around and certified. And then I continued to go to this hypnotist for a little bit of more deep work. And wow, I finally was able to learn how to love myself after a lifetime of not loving myself. So there’s I mean, there’s so much more that I could say about that about my story of why I turned to this. But what I realized is that people are like me, they want what works. And so they’re willing to try hypnotism as a way to work. I have many clients who have been gracious enough to post amazing reviews of what their experience was like. So when people are out there searching for something to help them feel better. Those reviews really help a lot. And

Maria Ross 04:31

what kinds of things are folks coming to you with? And do any of them relate back to the workplace and their work? Oh,

Amy Koford 04:38

yes, absolutely. Most people come to me for depression and anxiety. But with that comes a whole world of other issues right low confidence, low self esteem, and with that comes not as much productivity as they wish. And so yes, it definitely relates to the workplace. A lot of people that come to me or business as owners, or professionals and so yes, what we notice is that as they feel better about themselves, that confidence radiates out of them. And when they love themselves that radiates out of them, and it helps other people around them feel better about themselves too. So they get along better with coworkers, with family members with friends, it improves their productivity in the workplace, their confidence in the workplace. So yes, it absolutely relates to the workplace.

Maria Ross 05:30

And I love this because this is a modality we haven’t talked about on this show before, we’ve talked to psychologists and trauma counselors and folks like that, that are in the more, you know, quote, unquote, traditional realms. And so I’m curious, what you feel is unique about hypnotism for helping people with self awareness, which is, is one of the pillars of my new book that’s coming out in September, the empathy dilemma is that self awareness and self care are both two of the five pillars to help you be an effective empathetic leader, and not burn yourself out or lose your personal boundaries. And so a lot of what I talk about in the book is about taking care of your mind, body and spirit in whatever way that is suitable for you. And I give some suggestions. But what do you think about hypnotism that makes it so unique and so effective for people to engage in that kind of activity and reflection? Yeah, well,

Amy Koford 06:26

I appreciate that. And you’re right. I love what you’ve brought up. You’re absolutely right. Another thing that I’ve learned is that nothing helps us have empathy, the way that going through our own difficulties does. Wow, does that open our eyes, doesn’t it and our hearts to know how other people feel and what it’s like to go through something extremely difficult. So the thing that’s unique about hypnotism is, first of all, people need to understand that the subconscious part of the mind is far bigger than the conscious mind. And that that is the part of our mind where all of our memories are stored, and our emotions. So when someone is doing traditional therapy, they are trying to solve a subconscious problem with their conscious mind. And it’s a lot harder to do. And it takes a lot longer. So what I do with hypnotism is that we’re going into that subconscious part of their mind to solve the subconscious issues. Now, when someone has difficult experiences, that we need to resolve and work through the emotional part of it is what we’re really targeting. Because events are just events in life, right? It’s, it’s the feelings around that that are connected to the events that make it so traumatic and difficult. And again, emotions are in the subconscious. So we’re really working on helping them be okay with a number of ways in the subconscious, I can help their memories be dissociated. So in other words, they still remember them, but it feels like they’re distant, like they’re 1020 feet away. They can’t relive it anymore, the emotional way that they used to the traumatic way that it used to be. So it really works so tremendously well, because we’re fixing where the problems lie.

Maria Ross 08:18

I love that. And so what would you you know, like with this platform, what, what myths would you like to debunk about hypnotism?

Amy Koford 08:26

Yep, there’s a lot out there. There’s a lot of misunderstandings. And often, when someone comes for their first session, they’re a little nervous, because they’ve seen so many misrepresentations on TV shows and movies and so forth. So it’s actually very relaxing. And the myths are that I’m going to make them cluck like a chicken or bark like a dog something like, right, so I have to assure them no, that’s not why you’re here. Now I do hypnosis shows as an on that, yeah, I can get them to do funny things. But in hypnotherapy, it’s so different. And so I’ll also address other fears like maybe that they’re worried that they can get stuck in hypnosis and they won’t be able to come out of it. So I have to let them know that that’s not going to happen that it’s a very natural state of mind. Just like you wake up from when you’re sleeping, you’re going to wake up from this. Another fear is that some people think that they cannot be hypnotized. And so I’ve never had a single person ever that cannot be hypnotized. But some people take a little longer or a little bit different approaches than some there’s no right one way to be hypnotized or one way to feel so I have to individually work on that in my office.

Maria Ross 09:45

And is it a myth that you can’t remember what you’ve done while you’ve been hypnotized?

Amy Koford 09:50

Not no not entirely now. Okay. shows I do have some people that when they come out of it during the after the show, they don’t remember that they He got up and said swear words. It’s like that, yes, that has happened where they don’t remember. However, in hypnotherapy, they tend to remember quite a bit. And I do record their sessions and send them to the client, and have them listen to the session as they’re falling asleep every night. So that it’s really getting reinforced into their mind and helping them sleep better. So that way, if they don’t remember it, then they’re listening to it again and again and saying, oh, yeah, okay. I realize that Amy said that to me during the session. So let’s

Maria Ross 10:35

talk a little bit about a methodology you have called the trauma protocol. Because we’ve done previous episodes on this show about recognizing trauma, especially among colleagues or your teams in the workplace, and how you can be there for them and how you can properly respond. We’ve done some episodes about how you can process your own trauma, and I’ll put links in the show notes to all those past episodes. But you have something specific called the trauma protocol. Can you tell us what that is?

Amy Koford 11:02

Yes, absolutely. I’m really pleased with this trauma protocol. It’s specifically designed, it’s a program of mine, that is engineered to take someone through all the different ways of letting go of those difficult feelings connected to the past events and memories, and replacing all of that with extreme positivity. So every single session, there’s eight, every session has different ways of approaching their subconscious mind, to be able to let go of those very difficult emotions. And like I say, dissociation, and just a number of different ways. So that when they finish those sessions, wow, they are just feeling like a rock star like they are so incredibly transformed. So my little tagline with the trauma protocol is traumatized to optimized. And that is the goal, like when they’re done, they have been able to do a ton of just life changing, dramatic improvement. I love that.

Maria Ross 12:12

Because I just want to interject here because, you know, before we started recording, we were talking about the fact that a lot of this has to do with getting to know yourself, getting to process your own trauma, getting to understand your own emotional triggers, for example, but all because who we are and how we were raised, and what’s happened to us impacts how we show up in the workplace, how we show up as a leader, you know, so, so folks that think, well, why are we talking about this on a business podcast, we talk about these kinds of topics interchangeably on the show all the time, because you cannot park your humanity at the office door when you come to work every day. And so being able to not only understand for yourself to be a more effective colleague and leader, but to understand and recognize these things in people around you, that you’re working with, so that you can better support them and you can better collaborate is so important. And so I love that you know that this protocol, and I know you’re going to tell us more about it. But it’s this idea that these things that have happened in your personal life cannot really be compartmentalized as we’ve been taught, and not interfere or impact your work, your leadership, the way you show up the way you deliver the way you perform. So sort of that step is just even that’s like a game changer of being able to go from traumatized to optimized and what that means for your not just your life and your happiness, but your daily performance as well. Absolutely, yeah.

Amy Koford 13:45

If you have traumas in the past that have not been resolved, it will show up in various ways. It will. I know, you know, everyone wants to hide it stuff at a way never think about it or try to pretend like it doesn’t exist, but it will show up. And so one of the things that you and I were talking about that’s so important. You know, one of the steps of the trauma protocol is forgiveness. But the way that I help people forgive even the most drastic, awful things, is to understand that when that person was a kid, they didn’t aspire to hurt. That wasn’t their goal in life. You know, that wasn’t their aspirations, that they have to understand that, yes, we go through difficult things. And people don’t want to grow up to be a jerk or to be an annoying person at the workplace. That’s just not what they really want to be. But they have these struggles, these battles internally, that make it really hard sometimes for them to be the one that they want to be or they don’t even realize that they’re being not very nice, you know, it, it does show up and So, when we’re in the workplace, it’s important to understand that people are the way they are for reasons and very good reasons. And that helps you have empathy.

Maria Ross 15:11

I love that because, you know, I’ve written in the past about, we’ve talked a lot on the show about psychological safety. And I’ve written an article about what psychological abuse at work feels like. And, you know, now that I’m older and wiser, and have studied empathy and worked on myself, you know, this experience was decades ago, I have more compassion for that, that leader that was making my life miserable. And it’s Yeah, exactly. To your point. It’s, it’s removing yourself enough and your own emotions, enough from the situation to be able to say, what happened to this person. And this is what I the approach I try to take when I run into people who are being mean, or rude, or, you know, hating me on social media. It’s like, wow, who hurt you? Exactly, no. And so we’re what hurt you or how are you hurting yourself? I it is, I have to say forgiveness is hard. It is you have been through trauma, or you have been through psychological abuse. Taking a little bit of a turn here, what kinds of things can people do if they’ve been in a traumatic workplace or personal environment? To begin those steps of forgiveness? Yeah,

Amy Koford 16:28

well, it’s important that I just bring up something real quick that comes up in my book, I have a whole chapter about insecurities. And insecurities are a bigger deal than people realize a lot. You know, you were the reason I wanted to bring this up as you were talking about leaders. Interestingly, what I’ve learned in what I do, and in all my reading, and everything I’ve done, is that a lot of people that are very successful, are incredibly insecure. And those insecurities, push them and drive them to prove themselves. And so you know, they can end up being wildly successful, but still super conflicted and in turmoil inside. Because those very insecurities are what’s just pushing them to burn the candle at both ends. And to succeed, they absolutely, we must succeed in order to prove themselves to others, and to fill that void of the insecurities. Hmm, so true. Yeah. So yes, the steps to forgiveness, it is very hard to forgive when someone has hurt you deeply. And I get all kinds of clients who have had just atrocious things happen to them, you would be shocked. But the forgiveness is for the client. Okay, so it’s important that they start to understand that this is not for them, this is not letting them off the hook. This is for you to be at peace, and to have freedom. So the steps are that you have to first understand that number one, that person did not aspire to hurt you. Okay? They had a crappy childhood, or they had whatever it was right. Like they had difficulties, experiences, events, traumas that brought them to say what they said to you, and do what they did to you. Okay, so that’s super important to understand. And once the client starts to get that bigger picture perspective, that helps so much, because then they realize, you know, that’s true. This loved one or this person that I knew, or the stranger, they probably did have a lot of really difficult circumstances in their lives that caused them to do this, or say this. And so once I can get the client to do that, and this will help everyone, you’re on your way to being able to forgive. But the other thing is to just totally know, it is for you, right, forgiveness is for your peace, for your happiness and your ability to put the past behind you and move forward in a very empowering way.

Maria Ross 19:11

I love that. I love that. And you know, since you mentioned the book, let’s kind of round out the conversation and reminding people again, the book is called hardwired, hardwired to rise, eye opening truths about how fear holds you back causes suffering, and how to liberate yourself to have the thriving life you deserve. So tell us what your hope is for this book. What do you hope this book will do for people or that they take away from

Amy Koford 19:35

it? Thank you. Yeah, my big thing is that I have learned in the many 1000s of sessions that I’ve done over the years, that fear is the base of all negativity, okay, every issue that someone comes to me for is fear based. And that’s something that I realized, you know, throughout my sessions, depression, all of it, the insecurities and so what I’m trying to do is help bring awareness. Because I do get a lot of people. In fact, just yesterday I had a new client, who I asked her what would your life be like without fear? And she said, Oh, I don’t have fear. And so I went through some of the things that she had told me, I said, Well, you know, your, your rating your confidence very low, that’s fear, you are raising yourself low, very low, that’s fair piece you rated at zero out of zero to 10. So, it really I saw her sit there and start to get the light bulb turned on, oh, I’ve never thought of that as fear. So my book is creating awareness that even those people that are fearless, you know, I’ve had lots of clients who do rock climbing, and all kinds of, you know, skydiving, all kinds of really fearless kind of things, but they still struggle with fears that they did not realize. And, and so as we work through that, it is so eye opening to them. So almost alarming, and just really surprising to some clients who felt that like they were completely fearless to learn, no, sorry, you actually were having a ton of fear inside about other things that people would never know, right. And so it’s first of all, creating awareness about how fear is hurting us individually and the world. But every single chapter has exercises and techniques to let go of fear, plus a ton of other things. And as we go through the book, it’s all about letting it go. Overcoming it, and just breaking out of that prison of fear and shining and living your life to the fullest and reaching your full potential. So it really just is all about fear. And let’s just we deserve better than this. Yeah, absolutely. Not only individually, but as the world, you know, and I talk about what is fear doing to the world right now. And that’s going to be really eye opening to some people and saying like, as a world, we deserve better. We are hardwired to rise above fear, and to face challenges with courage not to let fear oppress us and stop us and limit us.

Maria Ross 22:16

Well, if you I mean, many social misunderstandings, many dysfunctions of teams, many of those issues. I you know, my stance has always been, they’re often caused by a lack of empathy, but there’s a lack of empathy because there is fear. So even the most aggressive bully, the fear is not being accepted, not being liked being seen as not worthy of their leadership position, being worried that they’re going to lose, you know, being fearful that they’ll lose control, all of those things. When you see behaviors like micromanagement, or aggressive behavior at work, a lot of that is completely fear based. And it makes sense, because underneath they might not admit that. But what it is, is it’s a fear of something, otherwise, you wouldn’t be acting that way. Yep. And one of the things

Amy Koford 23:05

I bring up in my book is really, the ultimate fear is our needs not being met. And we’re fulfilled. We all every day, every minute of our lives is spent filling our emotional, physical, spiritual mental needs. And so really, fears are all about our needs not being met. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, you’re right, exactly what you say is spot on. Well, I

Maria Ross 23:29

hope folks will check out the book and check out your work. And I thank you so much for sharing your insights with us today. And again, the book is called hardwired to rise. And we’ll have all your links in the show notes. But where’s the best way for anyone that’s on the go right now listening to the podcast? Where’s the best way they can connect with you and find out more about your work?

Amy Koford 23:50

Okay, yeah, thanks. They can go to Amy cofer.com that has all my contact information, and you can just contact me directly through the website. And I have a free gift for everyone that visits my website on the top, you just click on the Download the free happiness and peace checklist. Now that’s 41 items that I have found really works. In my years of being a happiness and peace expert. I have narrowed it down into that list and put it all in there. And everyone that uses that list, it will work. Okay, I absolutely know that if you use that list, you are going to feel much happier and much more peaceful and I want that for all of you listening. I want you to feel better. I love that. I

Maria Ross 24:35

do too. And it’s Amy coleford que ORKOFORDKLNY Say o f o r d.com Thank you again, Amy. It’s been wonderful to connect with you. Oh,

Amy Koford 24:48

thank you, Maria. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Maria Ross 24:51

And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. rate review and share it with a friend or a colleague and until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources, book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

June Hot Take: How Clarity Makes You an Empathetic Leader

The book is coming! September 10 is the day that The Empathy Dilemma: How Successful Leaders Balance Performance, People, and Personal Boundaries hits shelves to help leaders dedicated to people-centered practices to get the best performance possible and balance the demands of the business with the needs of their people.

I am so excited to share this with you! For the next 5 months, I’ll be devoting a Hot Take episode to one of the 5 core pillars of EFFECTIVE empathetic leaders, outlined in the book. Because the reality is that we want a more human-centered workplace culture. But we have to get actual work DONE! You can do both, but only when you are able to show up fully and have the capacity to take in other perspectives without fear, stress, or defensiveness. So today we’re diving into Pillar Three of the 5 Pillars – clarity.

Clarity is the key to being an empathetic leader while also still holding people accountable. Learn more about why this is such an important pillar to creating an empathetic – and high-performing – culture.

Today, I share are five strategies to try to be more clear. More details, examples, and tactics to try can be found in The Empathy Dilemma, so don’t forget to snag your presale copy now!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Five strategies (though not a comprehensive list) include:
- Revisit Purpose and Values
- Clarify Roles and Expectations
- Link Clarity to Accountability
- Tell People Why
- Ask Better Questions
Lacking a reason why can create an empathy gap between leaders and the rest of the team. Even if they don’t like the reason, people want to know why they are being given tasks or goals.
Without clarity, there is no accountability. People cannot be appropriately held to standards that they know nothing about.

“Resentments build where misunderstandings thrive…Clarity helps people feel seen, heard, and valued, reduces the likelihood of conflict, and enables everyone to work together more effectively.”

— Maria Ross

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Hello everyone. Welcome to the June hot take. How clarity makes you an empathetic leader. I’m so excited to share the second pillar of my five pillars for effective empathetic leadership from the new book, and the book is coming. Don’t forget, September 10 is the day that the empathy dilemma, how successful leaders balance performance people and personal boundaries, hits shelves to help leaders like you, dedicated to people, centered practices, get the best performance possible and balance the demands of the business with the needs of your people. So I’m excited to share with you, as I mentioned, these months that we’re in, I’ll be devoting a hot take episode to one of the five core pillars of effective, empathetic leaders that are outlined in the book, and because the reality is that we all want a more human centered workplace culture. I have not spoken to a leader that would disagree with that statement. However, people struggle because we have to get actual work done, and you can do both, but only when you’re able to show up fully and have capacity to take in other perspectives, without fear, stress or defensiveness. So today we’re diving into pillar three of the five pillars, clarity. Now this is the hurdle that gets in many a leader’s way. They think they have to choose between empathy and high performance or compassion and ambition. They don’t think in terms of both and because it is both, and it’s not either or, and many leaders never realize that empathy is the catalyst when it’s actually being shown that leads to performance, engagement, innovation, results, loyalty, revenue, all the things right now, speaking of the new book, there’s a Special pre sale offer, you can purchase one to 99 copies of the book at porchlight, my amazing bulk distributor, and get 30% off until August 27 so stay through to the end, and I’ll tell you how to get discounted copies for your team. Get some swag, get invited to a special VIP launch event, and potentially have me crash your next meeting for an empathy discussion. As I’ve said before, what I loved about writing the book was interviewing so many leaders who are actually doing it, being authentic, empathetic, tuning into their people, while never losing focus on why they’re there and what they’re being tasked to do. As one of my interviewees shared in the book, their number one goal is to make the business successful that but that doesn’t mean that it has to be at the expense of showing empathy and humanity for their team. In fact, because they do show those things, their teams are loyal to a fault and would go through fire for them. But how? How can leaders balance performance, people and personal boundaries? You might ask, that’s where the five pillars of effective, empathetic leadership come in. These are common traits and behaviors that I see over and over again in the leaders I’ve interviewed, I’ve spoken to, I’ve advised in the research that I’ve done, and even among those who are truly empathetic leaders by everyone else’s estimation, but they don’t label themselves as such. So the five pillars are really a result of all that research, all those interviews, and I found them to be the common threads across all those who are empathetic and high performing. And that’s why I wrote the book. Is to help you as a leader and, quite frankly, even as a colleague, be able to firm up your foundation so that you can show empathy for other people, and you can be empathetic in those moments where it matters most. So clarity is the third of the five pillars in the book The Empathy dilemma, and let’s dig into it. Clarity is the key to being an empathetic leader while also still holding people accountable. And this important pillar is needs some definition, right? What do we mean by clarity? Clarity is ensuring everyone is on the exact same page through clear communication, expectations, feedback and other. Understanding of job roles, all of which roll up to an actionable mission statement and meaningful company values. So why is it important? Why is clarity important? Resentments build, where misunderstandings thrive. One of the biggest reasons leaders and workers butt heads is a lack of communication on mission roles and responsibilities, and I would also add unsaid rules and cultural norms right when people know what’s expected of them, including in emergencies and on an as needed basis, they’re less likely to become disgruntled or even feel entitled. Clarity helps people feel seen, heard and valued. It reduces the likelihood of conflict and it enables everyone to work together more effectively. Clarity is so underrated and woefully underused, sure, plenty of leaders talk a good game about its importance, but plenty more shy away from actually creating clarity when things get diplomatically dicey. So here are five strategies to try to be more clear. Now, of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are more details, examples and tactics to try in the empathy dilemma. So don’t forget to snag your presale copy now. So the first strategy is to revisit your purpose and values. Clarity on minutia won’t mean anything if your teams don’t have foundational clarity on the company’s purpose and values, and neither leaders nor employees will be able to act compassionately if the shared purpose and values are confusing or vague. Strategy number two, clarify roles and expectations. How many people review their job descriptions after they’ve been hired, the number probably approaches zero, except during annual review periods. Right? Given that, consider what you can do to ensure your team members understand and agree to their roles and responsibilities on a continuous basis, think beyond the job description to how you can clearly articulate the team’s rules of engagement. Have these discussions, document them and revisit them often, three link clarity to accountability. You can’t hold people accountable if they’re not clear on their expectations and goals. Otherwise, what are they being held accountable to? Everyone on your team should be able to say this sentence, I clearly understand my contribution. I clearly understand that I’m accountable for this piece of the puzzle, and I’m accountable for how I show up every day. Number four, tell people why leaders are busy and overwhelmed, which means they often convey what needs to be done, and then they omit the reason why, lacking a reason why people feel disrespected or kept in the dark, this amounts to an empathy gap and one that can be closed quickly and easily with clear explanations. They may not like the answer, but at least they understand why the ask is being made and why it’s important. And finally, ask better questions. So little known fact, clarity doesn’t come from having the right answer, it comes from asking the right questions. This can include knowing the right prompts when someone approaches you with a concern or a problem. So again, tip of the iceberg, right to better understand these deceptively simple strategies in detail and find tactics you can employ. Hear stories of people putting clarity into action. Please check out the empathy dilemma for stories from leaders and all those crucial tactics so you can put these things into place. These five pillars will transform how your team engages, performs, innovates and delivers for you and your customers. So again, you can enjoy special pre sale and launch bonuses. Just go to the empathy dilemma.com that’s the best place, because it links to everything. It links to the pre sale offers. It links to where you need to go to submit your receipt when you purchase pre sale, so you can get in on all the goodies. Because when you pre order, you will be able to be invited to a VIP virtual launch event. You will get some swag, TBD, and if you order 25 or more books during the pre sale or at launch, you can get a free 30 minute virtual author, Q A with me on your call for your team or your organization. So I can crash your event if you want more than 99 copies. There are bulk volume discounts available too. So again, you can go to the empathy dilemma.com and that will link you to all the places. So I hope you enjoyed today’s hot take. Next month, we’ll be digging into pillar number four, which is decisiveness, very important one. And until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. Mind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathyedge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Michael Bach: What Exclusion is Costing Your Company

The research is clear: investing in diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging contributes to your bottom line. I hate to be so crass about a topic that should just be something we care about as humans connecting with other humans, but with all the recent backlash about diversity and equity initiatives, we have to get executive attention somehow.

Today, you will hear about what’s driving that backlash and how we can fight against it through empathy and understanding. And why quite frankly, exclusion is bad for business.

My guest is the charming Michael Bach. Michael shares how he got into this work, the stereotype of DEI practitioners, how to think about disability, the more dangerous role of apathy in fighting back against exclusion, the difference between diversity and inclusion, and he gives us a short primer on the Alphabet Soup of LGBTQ2+ initialism.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

If you’re trying to create any change, you need to understand how the organization operates from the inside.
Disability is not one thing – there are hundreds of disabilities under the umbrella term. It needs to be considered as a range, not just one form of accessibility.
It is not a competition. If we’re creating safer environments for everyone, regardless of how they identify or what they need, it creates a safer more inclusive environment for everyone.
There is a big difference between having diversity and being inclusive. The company is the soil that needs to be right for the seed of talent to thrive.

“It’s very difficult to quantify, but if you just look at it simply you can figure out that exclusion is just bad for business. And the reality is that most employers have figured that out.”

— Michael Bach

About Michael Bach, CEO. IDEA Hub Consulting, IDEA thought leader

Michael Bach is an author, speaker and thought leader in inclusion, diversity, equity and accessibility (IDEA). He has worked globally in the IDEA field, including as the Deputy Chief Diversity Officer for KPMG International. He is the founder of the Canadian Centre for Diversity and Inclusion (CCDI), CCDI Consulting and Pride at Work Canada.

He is the author of the best-selling and award-winning books Birds of All Feathers: Doing Diversity and Inclusion Right and Alphabet Soup: The Essential Guide to LGBTQ2+ Inclusion at Work.

In 2023, he was named as one of the 10 Most Influential DE&I Leaders Revamping The Future by CIO Views Magazine.

Connect with Michael:

IDEA Hub Consulting: michaelbach.com

Books:

Birds of All Feathers: Doing Diversity and Inclusion Right

Alphabet Soup: The Essential Guide to LGBTQ2+ Inclusion at Work

New book: All About Yvie: Into the Oddity

X: twitter.com/themichaelbach

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/themichaelbach

Facebook: facebook.com/themichaelbach

Instagram: instagram.com/themichaelbach

Threads: threads.net/@themichaelbach

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Michael Bach 03:09

Thank you for having me. Maria Ross, it’s good to see you.

Maria Ross 03:13

It’s good to see you too. And we should mention as I do with my other fellow page, two authors that we are also page two fellow authors, we are working with the fabulous publishing team that’s there. So let’s talk a little bit about your work. We heard your bio and all your great credentials in the intro, but why don’t you tell us a little bit more of your story? And how you come to this work?

Michael Bach 03:37

Great question. So I’ve been doing this work for nearly 20 years professionally, long story, but opportunity came up for me in while I was working for KPMG in Canada. In the IT consulting practice, I ended up moving into a role in diversity there. Aaron was in that role for seven years, was also the Deputy Chief Diversity Officer for the company for a couple years and then also left and ran another organization for another 10 years. I have been doing what we now call diversity and inclusion work for my entire adult life. I was raised in a very sort of social justice be a good person type environment, taught to have a high level of empathy. And, you know, even when I came out as gay, that began my journey, like I started volunteering for different LGBTQ organizations. And so it was always something I did was always part of my life, whether it was it was the LGBT space, whether it was with women, people with disabilities, newcomers, it was always part of my life. It just wasn’t a job. No one was paying me for it. Yeah, it was some or at least not what I wanted to make. It was something you did as of volunteer, and then you sold your soul to the corporate evil. And that’s how it worked. And then all of a sudden, I had this opportunity to do the work I loved inside the corporation. And that was just this magical merging of things for me.

Maria Ross 05:15

Okay, I love that story. Because I think there’s a perception that just because you are part of the LGBTQ two plus community, that you’re going to be drawn to this kind of work. And so clearly your work before that was something else. What role do you see that played you getting into this as a full time job? And again, trying to make money from it, but also trying to do it as your calling as your vocation?

Michael Bach 05:44

Yeah, you are right, that is a bit of a myth that, you know, all members of any community, right, you could talk about women, you could talk about people of color, you could talk about anything, that they’re all drawn to doing this work in this space. And that’s, you know, ridiculous. It’s like saying that all straight white men not living with a disability want to be truck drivers. I mean, random stereotype. But yeah, that’s not the case. Obviously, it had always been something that I would have done, but there just wasn’t a job. And so I went into it. I graduated university and 1940 Something kidding, it was the early 90s. And it was the career right like this, and I had already done a college diploma and it and it was like a language I spoke. So it was a very natural career for me to be in. And it was good money. And right. So it wasn’t until this opportunity at KPMG. Were, all of a sudden, they were saying, Well, we’re gonna hire this role. And, you know, the company, you know, I knew the organization, I’d been there for a couple years, I knew who the players were, and how to get things done. And I think as as idea practitioners, that is far more important than Do you understand what like Muslim burial rights are, or reconciliation with indigenous people, you learn that stuff. But knowing who the CEO is, and how things happen in an organization is critically important. So I think it was I was in the right place at the right time, with the right skills,

Maria Ross 07:36

right. And that’s such an astute observation, because so much of it is about, yes, doing the work and being passionate about it. But if you’re trying to make any change and create any sort of transformation, you need to understand how an organization operates. And I think that’s why unfortunately, so many times that someone is brought in from the outside, with all good intentions, and all the right skills, if they don’t have those relationships within the company. If they don’t really know how things get done, they’re, they’re going to be very limited in their ability to have an impact. And I think that’s a really, really important point. And it’s interesting that you say this, because I started out in the Big Six consulting firms as well at Anderson Consulting, back when it was called Anderson, so I am dating myself as well. But we had made recipes. We had a change management group, I was in the Change Management Group, which was the people side of the work that you did, we would take what the IT developers and programmers were doing and make it understandable to users. But we had I remember this, this was 1994, we had a Diversity Committee. That was sort of an extracurricular if you wanted to join it, and I joined it, not really knowing I thought it was more about, you know, just cultural differences and understanding it wasn’t sort of the the scope that it is now. And we were able to do some things, we were able to bring some awareness and have some programs. But it was sort of this thing on the side, there was no one actually championing championing it I can ever say that word within the organization from a policy level from a hiring level from a values level. And so what how interesting to be in the line of work that you’re in and to see that evolution of wow, this wasn’t a thing before. And now it’s this big thing. Right? So that was originally

Michael Bach 09:27

90s. At least in my experience, those committees didn’t exist in every

Maria Ross 09:31

organization. No, no, it was very unique. Yeah,

Michael Bach 09:35

I worked in a big bank. And there was an I’m talking about a big global bank, there was nothing right there was no conversation about this. Right. And again, it was just that right time, right place right skills. And boy, am I lucky that the this KPMG took a chance on me I didn’t really know what I was doing. Like truth be told, I got the job and went, Oh, heck, how do I do this? What do I do? Right? And I just happened to be somebody who’s, you know, got a lot of gumption and I just picked up the phone and called other people who were in these roles at different organizations who were in the same situation. They already just because a lot of them, yeah, oh, no, there were probably at the time. So 2006, there were probably 50 people in Canada, with diversity in their title 50 out of 35 million people. And in the States, it was a little more, or it was a little more mature of the profession, largely because of things like affirmative action. And the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Kennedy was a little late to the party on this one. But I just call people and said, How do we do it? What do I do and got a lot of advice, and those people are still my friends to this day. But if to your point, had I been on the outside of the organization coming in blind into a brand new role? I would have failed. Guaranteed failure? Because I didn’t know I wouldn’t have known how things happened in a big fork accounting and consulting firm. And that information was critical to my success.

Maria Ross 11:20

I love it. Okay, so let’s talk about this because you talk about your work not as Dei, an idea, i e, AE. Can you tell us what that means? And then I have a follow on question about why is it under attack right now.

Michael Bach 11:40

So, I use the acronym idea. Inclusion, Diversity, Equity and accessibility. And there are lots of different versions of this initialism or acronym you’ll hear EDI di idea, sometimes you’ll hear like, dei A, which is the same as idea but it’s mixed order. D ay b. Sometimes they’ll throw a j in there. They all essentially the same thing. A justice. Oh, okay. Okay, B is for belonging. That’s yeah, I should also so belonging EIB before.

Maria Ross 12:16

Yes, yep. And

Michael Bach 12:19

they all essentially mean the same thing. They all essentially are the same point. We’re trying to make inclusive, equitable, accessible workplaces, so that everyone can succeed. Everyone. In order to acknowledge that that is a requirement, you have to acknowledge that there are some people in society that don’t have the same opportunities as others, that bias exists, that discrimination occurs. Things like racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, anti semitism, pick your, your terminology, that all of them exist, and those things hold people back. So to your follow up question. And I will say, I use I use idea because as a person who lives with a disability, it’s really important for me that the A is in there, because I find that people with disabilities notoriously get left off. They just don’t find their way to being included. They’re a secondary citizen in the inclusion conversation. And

Maria Ross 13:28

I feel like that’s the next frontier. I feel like I’m hearing more and more of the groundswell around that. I don’t know if you are, but I feel like that do need to come to the forefront with even just from a very practical level, people looking at websites and saying, you know, is it accessibility approved? Is it you know, is this accessible to all people? Are we using alt tags? Are we using all these things? Those were things people weren’t even talking about five years ago?

Michael Bach 13:52

I do. Yeah, I agree. And a lot of that is being driven by, frankly, a lot of really big names coming out and talking about being neurodivergent or living with depression or anxiety. And so the celebrity status piece is kind of attached to that. The question is, when the noise from Instagram dies down about that, will we still be talking about accessibility? You know, we live in a highly inaccessible world. And you have to think about disability as not one thing, but a combination of things because of course, there isn’t one disability. There are hundreds of different disabilities that are included in this umbrella term disability. To come to your follow up question, why is it under attack? So I believe that there is a small minority of people who are feeling empowered, thanks to a former president whose name shall not be used, who have been pushed into a corner they don’t feel included. eluded, they’re scared, they hear the data that says that white people are on the decline. And that’s true white people are in decline in terms of the population, because of other ethnic groups, racial and ethnic groups that are growing, whether they’re Latinx, Hispanic, Black, Asian, you name it, we are on the decline, we are not making enough babies to keep up. So they feel threatened. And it’s that combination of being threatened, which they that’s not new, add into it change, which, generally speaking, people are uncomfortable with and don’t enjoy change. And then that empowerment piece where they feel like it’s okay for them, to apply their belief system to a society. And when I say a small minority, I’m talking about maybe 20 to 25% of the population share beliefs, that would be considered exclusionary, they believe that their identity, be it as a man, be it as a cisgender, person, white, able bodied, whatever the case, English speaking, American Canadian, that they are entitled to something and that other people are less than that if you are a member of the LGBTQ plus communities, if you are a person with a disability, if you are an immigrant, that you somehow are less of a human being than they are. And it’s a combination of those things mixed in with a very individualistic me against the world, everyone for themselves. attitude and the lack of empathy. Where they don’t think they don’t see human beings on the other end of this conversation. They see sub human beings, and so they’re not empathetic. They’re very selfish. And I think it’s a, it’s a combination of all of these pieces. And, you know, when I say 20 to 25%, I’m looking at all of the research that shows us that, you know, 70, some odd from companies like Gallup and big research company, something like 75% of Americans support LGBTQ inclusion. So that’s a majority. It’s not a minority, right.

Maria Ross 17:38

But they’re just really loud. They’re

Michael Bach 17:41

really loud, and they’re really getting

Maria Ross 17:43

the airtime they’re getting the media attention. It’s It’s shocking. So it’s clickbait. It’s all the things but what I find so interesting, to be kind with with that word choice, is just the impact of, you know, like the book bands going on. And the like, we’re not going to talk about black history as it happened in our schools, we’re going to get rid of affirmative action, the proactive dismantling of the information, thinking that it’s going to somehow influence or taint someone into a behavior or a life choice that they actually don’t subscribe to. Case in point. The whole thing about the book bands, and taking out books, especially around stories, involving LGBTQ to a, I’m looking down at my notes plus, folks, this this whole thing of getting them out of schools, because they’re inappropriate, is not because they’re inappropriate. It’s because there’s a fear that it’s going to turn my kid gay, or turn my kid trans. We were listening to an NPR story in the car. This was about two years ago with my son, so he was about seven. And he was asking what was going on? And I said, Well, there’s certain places that are banning these books. And he had been exposed to books around transgender kids, I found book children’s books, a great way to open the conversation without it being so loaded with him. So it would just normalize it like, oh, we could refer back to that book reread, and that protagonist we read about. And he said, why would someone think that reading a book about a gay person would turn them gay? Seven years old? And I said, Exactly honey, I go, you read a book about a trans child, Are you trans? And he goes, No, I like being a boy. I’m like groovy. You do you like this is a conversation with a seven year old who can grasp this? Yeah. And it’s it’s this fear that it’s going to turn someone into someone they’re not that I just, I’m trying to be empathetic and understand, but I don’t think it’s grounded in reason.

Michael Bach 19:55

I agree. It’s not grounded in reason. And listen, I was raised by straight parents. I did not have any LGBTQ plus siblings, relatives, I did not see any books. You know, I’m a child of the 70s and 80s, there was nothing, I still turned out to be gay. So that logic doesn’t work at all. No, or the one that kills me is drag queen storytime and how they’re, they’re influencing children and grooming children. Because there’s nothing that says to a child. Here is a middle aged man, heavyset Harry in a dress, sweating his tits off, that you think, oh, that’s what I aspire to? Are you kidding me? Nothing about it. Oh, my gosh, I drag queen to a child is a very feminine clown. It’s just nothing different. It is fun. ETF? You know, the other piece of the puzzle that really confuses me is the willingness to ignore all of the data that says that, you know, when you look at people who are convicted pedophiles, the vast majority I’m talking 90 plus percent identify as heterosexual. So even though they are sometimes, you know, having sex or committing pedophilia, with children of the same sex, they don’t identify as homosexual. Well, so let’s target the drag queen. Yeah, because that makes sense. Right? It is confusing. It lacks empathy. And I think we have to introduce another word into this conversation. And that’s apathy. Hmm. Because these vast majority of people who say that they say, whether it’s LGBT inclusion, whether it’s a woman’s right to choose, whether it’s inclusion, they’re sitting on the sidelines, saying, Oh, it doesn’t impact me. Right? Doesn’t I don’t I don’t, you know, I don’t need to deal with this. So when the Marjorie Taylor greens, or the Ron DeSantis ‘s of the world are oppressing people, they’re not doing anything. Right. And I think this is where the pendulum of reason has swung way too far to one side. And we have allowed the, the this small minority of people to take over the narrative, and we as a society need to push back. And I think the example I would use to say, to show how that works is Kansas. Stay with me for a second, the Republican Congress or state legislature in Kansas was thinking they were so smart, and they were going to entrench it into their constitution that abortion was a should be banned, and it’s illegal. And it over whelmingly failed, and is now required, they have to entrench it in the Constitution, because they put it to a referendum. And their laws state that they have to do that. So the vast majority of people in that instance came out and said, Hold on a second, no, my body my choice. And that’s what needs to happen is the vast majority has to stand up to the Ronda Sana, I call the governor Rhonda Rhonda Santas because I think that’s just funny. Like, that’d be a great drag name, Rhonda Santas that Rhonda needs to have a little awakening where the vast majority of Floridians because we know he’s not making the he’s not winning this one, stand up and say, yeah, not okay. You’ve gone too far. You’re oppressing people. We’re taking things back. And I think that, you know, not to get political, but I think the Republican Party is going to end up being pushed into the abyss by this very far right, social conservative voice, where they’ve just they’ve lost the narrative. Yeah, really? Well, I think on a tangent,

Maria Ross 24:16

no, it’s all good, because it’s all related and it and it impacts workplace policies and and the progress that we have made on inclusion. And you know, people are already saying the data around the Supreme Court’s decision around affirmative action. They’re saying, here’s what’s going to happen. And it’s not good. It’s not good for organizations. You know, I know a lot of your work is talking about what is what is the cost of exclusion, and what is the upside of inclusion? And again, there’s so much data there. So can you share a little bit with us about, you know, what are companies losing when they don’t embrace inclusion when they don’t embrace policies that can Help them diversify their workforce and make their workforce more accessible to more people, what are they losing? From that stance? Yeah.

Michael Bach 25:10

And it’s a lot. And I, you know, I come from a technical background, a data background. And I do a present number of keynotes. But one of them is on the business case, for LGBTQ inclusion, the cost of the club, and I use that as one example of how employers are losing money. And I have a whole set of data that I put up and I, essentially, if a person’s in a closet, they’re wasting 15 minutes of their day, doing something that isn’t their job, explaining about their sexual orientation, or their gender, or hiding it, whatever, 15 minutes a day, that’s 65 hours a year of wasted time for something they’re not getting paid for. And then I add in the average salary, etc. And I have calculated that in Canada, the United States, just on the LGBTQ file alone, we’re wasting over a trillion dollars a year in salary for people doing something that isn’t their job. That doesn’t take into consideration, higher levels of voluntary turnover, lower levels of engagement, productivity, innovation, safety, incidents, absenteeism, presenteeism, all of the costs, that are impacting both top and bottom line. In organizations, you add in all of the groups, I put in air quotes that are included under the diversity, umbrella women, people of color, people with disabilities, indigenous people, or Native Americans, Native Alaskans, Native Hawaiians, people within the LGBTQ community, newcomers etc. We’re talking trillions and trillions of dollars, that employers are wasting, because they’re not creating inclusive and equitable environment. It is a and I, you know, I am throwing out a really big number. And it’s, it’s very difficult to quantify. But if you just look at it, simply you can figure out that exclusion is just bad for business. And the reality is that most employers have figured that out. And the Supreme Court can do what it likes. But they’re going to figure out ways to make sure that they are tapping into the widest possible talent pool. And that those people are engaged, that they feel like they can be themselves in those organizations that they’re going to give their all to wherever they’re working. And the CEOs and executive directors and whatnot of the world are saying, Yeah, I you, okay, we affirmative action, which, frankly, is been a disaster since it was brought out fine, that’s not allowed. But I can still ask my people how they identify, and I can track the data, and I can make sure that I’m that I’m representative of the communities that I serve, and I’m not missing out on a talent pool. That’s gonna happen. Yeah,

Maria Ross 28:19

that’s chickens still diversify their hiring, they can still put their own corporate policies in place and have their own corporate values they they are adhering to, and they can create a safe haven, but they can create a safe haven that actually benefits them financially. Absolutely. And I have no trouble. I know, you don’t either. Talking about both of those things. Simultaneously, I got some criticism of my TEDx talk, talking about tricking leaders into being more empathetic by showing them what’s in it for them. But if that’s how we make change, and how we make the world better, fine, if that’s what’s going to help somebody see things differently, and gets them to the table that gets them in the room to have the conversation, and then be changed by that and say, Wow, I didn’t realize what I was missing out on. They can’t unsee it. You don’t you don’t learn how to be empathetic, you don’t learn how to be inclusive, and then not be that way anymore. You’re sort of transformed from the outside in is what I always say. And so this is why I’m so drawn to your work. And I feel like I have a compatriot here in this idea of Yes, unfortunately, I know that, for me, it’s empathy for you. It’s inclusion is supposed to be something like this moral imperative. We don’t want to taint it by talking about business that’s not working. So it’s never worked and make it work. Yeah, we’ve got it we’ve got to meet we’ve got to meet people where they are. We’ve got to be empathetic about it and say what’s going to impact you to change as

Michael Bach 29:50

human beings we are innately selfish. We are going to do things that are in our own best interest. It’s very, very difficult, and you have to be a very evolved person to operate from a place that isn’t self involved. So, I always say to people, I don’t care how I get the horse to the water, but I’m gonna make the damn thing drink. And if if that’s focusing on the business imperative, great. The social justice imperative hasn’t worked. We’ve been at it for 5060 years, and it has not worked. And I think the difference being is it? Are we talking about the infamous corporate social responsibility? Or what’s now called ESG environments as environment, social and governance? Or are we talking about business imperative? Are we talking about what’s good for our top and bottom line? We are in the people business, you got to have people and, you know, all of the science shows us that we have to have engaged people back so that we can have productive people and safe people and, and if the CEOs of the world are looking at this from a selfish perspective, to say, this is how I can make my company make more money, okay? Because we as a society win, right? And all those people when

Maria Ross 31:17

you get, they get to work in a psychologically safe, inclusive, welcoming environment where they can do their best work, they can innovate, they can be creative, they can solve problems, they can have successes, and yeah, yeah, we all win, we all win. And it doesn’t have to be the moral imperative. No, and it also the other thing, too, is none of this says that we have to punish straight white people. In order to make this happen. I feel like that’s always the fear of they’re going to be impacted negatively, somehow by this. And it’s the rising tide lifts all ships, right, it’s going to create a better workplace for you, for you to shine and you to bring your best work. And this, you know, imaginary scenario that people always have about, like, it’s going to come down to me, and a gay person for the job, or me and a black person for the job, and they’re gonna win out just because it’s never that black and white. It’s never that it’s, I don’t know, it’s just, it’s not that binary. Exactly. When

Michael Bach 32:20

you look at job interviews, promotions, it’s always a competition. Yeah, someone wins, someone loses. It should always be about the skill. But we have to accept that bias exists, that people make decisions, not based just on who is the best candidate who has exactly the skills that you’re looking for. And there is usually something that pushes someone over the top. So if an organization does, let’s say, you’re hiring a VP of sales, and if if that organization has decided that they want to diversify their customer base, and maybe attract more customers from the Latin X Hispanic communities, then wouldn’t it make sense to hire a VP of sales? Who understands the Latin X Hispanic community? So yes, the VP of Sales should be a person from that background. I had a conversation once with a company, one of my clients got big, big insurance company, and their head of operations in Asia, was a white person who had never lived in Asia, and they wanted to focus on that market. And my if somebody they parachuted in, they didn’t speak the language, they didn’t understand the market. Yeah, you got the wrong person for the job. No disrespect to that person. But you have to, you know, you have to understand the market. This was a bad business decision. And, yes, it was a white man, who was the wrong person for the job. But it could have just as easily been a black woman who was the wrong person for the job, you cannot give someone a job because of the color of their skin or their gender, that is absolutely the wrong decision. That is a bad business decision. You have to choose the right person, but you have to accept that there are some realities that we have to work within. And that if if my goal is to attract more people of color into the job, I’m an ultra I’m gonna focus on people of color.

Maria Ross 34:34

So what do you say to clients you work with? Or audiences that say we want to do that, but those are not the people applying to our jobs? What do you say to that? Because I hear that a lot. It’s like, I don’t know where to find those qualified people. What’s your answer to that?

Michael Bach 34:50

Well, first of all, they’re not hiding. It’s, they’re not no down on an island somewhere being like, oh, no, they can’t see us every year. They want the opportunity. The question Should I ask is why aren’t they applying? So one of a couple things is, is happening. One, they don’t see your organization as a potential employer, keeping in mind that we’re all competing with one another as employers, and there’s the shiny objects of companies like Google and meta and not Twitter anymore. But you know, big organizations that are competing, you’re competing against, and everyone wants to work for those big brands, because they think it’s actually going to be a better job. It’s not. So people are not seeing you as an employer, or people are not seeing themselves within your organization. So they’re opting out of applying to jobs in your organization, because they don’t think that they can be successful. Whether that’s because you don’t have anything on your website about your work and diversity and inclusion, or all of the pictures look like me, a very, very, very handsome, very white man. Emphasis on on handsome, you know, they’re opting out, you have to actively go out and change the perspective, you have to make sure that your website is reflective of the people that you want to hire, not the people who work for you, you have to make sure that you have a focus on diversity and inclusion, that you’re making your environment inclusive. Can I interrupt

Maria Ross 36:22

you right there, because I think that’s another big missing piece is just bringing underrepresented and diverse populations into your organization does not mean the work is done. Because if they get there and they feel highly uncomfortable, they’re going to leave. So what are you doing within the within the structure of the organization and the values of the organization where they continue to feel welcome?

Michael Bach 36:46

There’s a big difference between having diversity and being inclusive. And I use the analogy of a, a garden, when you plant a seed, and the seed doesn’t grow? Is it the seeds fault? Or is it the soils fault? It’s the soil. The seed is the seed, it’s nothing does it grows, it doesn’t grow. But it it it is based off more often than not on the impact of the soil. In this analogy, the seed is the diversity and the inclusion or the the soil is the inclusion. And if the work environment is inclusive, then people won’t stay. I was wearing one client was very proud of this talent attraction program, they had to bring in people of color, because it was a very wide organization. And we looked at their voluntary turnover rate. And they had twice as many people of color going out the back door as they did coming in the front door. So we stopped the program, we focused on the inclusion and their volunteer Terry turnover rate went down. So they could start again, focusing on not just focusing on exclusively hiring people of color, but making sure that they’re hiring a diversity that is reflective of the community that they serve, and the talent population. You know, it is a lot of work. But doing nothing gets nothing like getting a gym membership and not going I promise you nothing’s going to change. I speak from experience. Wish we have to put in the effort. You know, the the ship has left the station. You can try you can ban books, go for it. It’s not going to change anything. You can try to oppress people. As a society, we have a long history of that, look where it’s gotten. I love it.

Maria Ross 38:32

So we’re running short on time. And I know really quickly, what I did want you to share was a couple of highlights because you talk about this in your book, alphabet soup, The Essential Guide to LGBTQ two plus inclusion at work. But let’s give people a little amused Bush, can you help break down some of the definitions for us? When we’re talking about transgender when we’re talking about gay when we’re talking about queer when we’re talking about non binary? Just can you give us a brief rolling glossary here and then I’m going to invite people to check out the book for more to dig deeper into this.

Michael Bach 39:06

Sure. So the first thing that people need to understand is that we use initialisms like LGBTQ two plus or any of them and they’re all fine. Everyone needs to relax them which initialism is the right one. But when we say LGBTQ two plus, we’re talking about two or three distinct things and I’ll correct I’ll explain that. We’re talking about sexuality or sexual orientation, that’s the L, the G and the B. Those are exclusively about sexual orientation. We are talking about gender, which is the T for transgender or trans identified or just trans. That is an umbrella term that covers a lot of different identities. Transgender is a very specific thing, whereas trans or trans identified is an umbrella term that covers all four forms of gender. Diversity. And then we’ve got a Q and A two. Now some people are probably thinking what’s the to stand for it stands for to spirit, which is a term used by some North American indigenous people, First Nations people who are also part of the LG BTQ. community. So the two in the queue can be either a sexual orientation, or gender identity. Now, I mentioned that there’s a third and that sometimes you’ll hear the AI, which stands for intersex, which is a person born with some combination of both male and female reproductive equipment. That’s a terrible word, but you know what I’m saying. And the AI is a sex assignment, not a gender. So we can be talking about sexual orientation, gender, and sex assigned at birth, you can be a combination of those letters. So you can be gay and trans. You can be non binary and a lesbian. You can be intersex and straight. It’s a combination of things. We are not talking about a single community, we are talking about a community of communities. And that’s why I in the book, I refer to it as the LGBTQ plus communities, because it’s a whole bunch of different identities that are stuck together under one Initialism. And it is I honestly do feel like we did a bit of a dirty to people who are not part of the community because we stuck all the letters together and said he figure it out. And we didn’t do our job and explain it to the broader population. And I think we do. You know, I think part of my work now is trying to correct some of that. I

Maria Ross 41:42

love that. I love that. Well, we’re gonna have links to all your books and to all your work to to but I do want to take a left turn and talk about your new book that’s coming out June 19. It’s kind of related but not really about tell us about that book. It

Michael Bach 42:02

is a it’s kind of related is the best way to put it. It is called all about Evie into the oddity. And if you are fans of the show, Ru Paul’s drag race. This is the biography of Evie. Oddly, winner of season 11 of RuPaul drag race. And I’ve had the distinct pleasure of working on this book with Evie. And I’m very excited about it. It’s it’s a total change for me writing wise, because it’s the biography, right? It’s not a business book. And it was a big shift in my writing style and the war and how to pull it together. But it was such a treat. And I am so proud of this book, because I really do think my goal was to create kind of a love letter to the fans, and give them the opportunity to get to know evey in a much deeper way. And I feel like we achieved that.

Maria Ross 42:54

Let’s see, this is how it’s connected. Because when we humanize when we tell stories, and we don’t just refer to these groups as these blanket groups that are inhuman to us, and create these legislations and these policies that impact real people’s lives, books like that. I’m a huge proponent of building your empathy through documentaries, films, music, art, biographies, autobiographies, if you don’t understand this group, read a book like this. Yeah, read their story, get to know them get to that point of empathy, where you might not still quote unquote, agree with that lifestyle. And you know, frankly, those people don’t care. But you can at least get insight for yourself and educate yourself on what this is all about, and how these folks are just like us, and they live like us. And we’re all human beings. And we all just have different stories. So it actually is very related to your work because you shining a light on this one person, yes, a celebrity, but still shining a light into the life and the story of this one person that others might not have that same experience in life. That’s how we build that empathy muscle.

Michael Bach 44:05

I absolutely agree. And it it it definitely is connected it what is about that empathy piece. And you know, we’ve you and I’ve talked about this that it’s so critical to the work in idea. And I really wanted people to understand because Evie was very controversial winner and I really wanted people to understand Evie better as a human being beyond what was shown on television. And it is, I think, a beautiful book so you can pick it up and learn a little more about EB oddly. Yay.

Maria Ross 44:42

And we’ll have a link to that as well in the show notes. But as we wrap up, Michael, you know, again, we’ll have all your links but for folks on the go or who might be on their peloton right now as they’re listening to us. Where’s the best place they can find out more about you?

Michael Bach 44:55

You can go to my website at Michael bach.com Or on the social medias. I am the Michael Bach, the

Maria Ross 45:01

Michael Bach. I love it. Oh

Michael Bach 45:03

my God, the One and Only

Maria Ross 45:04

thanks for your insights. It’s always so wonderful to talk to you. I’m so glad we connected and we were able to do this. Thank you so much for including me. And thank you so much for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard you know what to do. leave a rating and a review and share this episode with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Jessica Swank: How Box Navigates the New World of Work

Post-pandemic leadership can be challenging. With the current market and increased expectations workers, leaders, and mid-level managers are squeezed, balancing the needs of the business with the demands of their people. This is why I’m excited to talk to a Chief People Officer of a global organization that is doing the work, navigating the journey, and experimenting with ways to better support their people.

Today, I talk with Jessica Swank about how her company’s leaders are navigating the challenges and still taking care of themselves and their people. We discuss the importance of clarity and support when setting high expectations, and how transparency, communication, and listening are vital with hybrid and remote work experimentation. We discuss specific ways Box integrates values into their decisions and develops and enables their managers to be more successful. Whatever your culture, Jessica offers her best advice on where you can start supporting your leaders.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

In your organization, you cannot be clear enough. Hold high expectations, but also give a clear understanding that you’ll be supporting your team and that you’re available for that support.
Actions speak louder than words and other people notice. You continue to show your empathetic culture every time you talk about caring for each other and empathy in service and follow it up with actions.
Setting boundaries is both self-care and empathetic. It gives you space to recharge and be more present in the difficult conversations that need to be had in business.
Work-life balance is not real. You need to understand priorities and boundaries to ensure you’re healthy with your life in the season you’re in.
It is a journey to understanding and managing the needs of your team. Be willing to take that journey and gather information from your employees on what is working and what is not.

“It’s not just up to the business to say, ‘Here’s what I need from you.’ It is incredibly valuable for every person to have that open dialogue with their managers, ask them when they need support, clarification, feedback, not just sitting back and waiting to be told, but also engaging in that dialogue.”

— Jessica Swank

“It’s all about juggling, and you’re going to drop some balls, just make sure that the balls are going to bounce versus shatter.” — Jessica Swank

About Jessica Swank, Chief People Officer, Box

Jessica has a proven track record of helping companies define and amplify their people and culture strategy (including diversity, talent development, employee experience, workforce planning, people analytics, and internal communications). She has been with Box since December 2018, and currently leads all People (HR), Belonging, Community (including Box.org), Places (workplace services and real estate), and Internal Communications. Prior to Box she led the People team at Blue Bottle Coffee, a high-growth global coffee company. Previously, Jessica led HR for Aruba, a fast-growing subsidiary of HPE, and spent ten years at HP/HPE in a variety of global HR roles. Her early career included executive search and recruiting for CEO’s, CFO’s and other key leadership positions.

Connect with Jessica Swank:

Box: box.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jessica-venner-swank

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com

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Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast & book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

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Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Jessica Swank 03:24

that’s a great question. So I actually grew up philosophizing a lot with my mom around, like, what makes people and what makes leaders and really just curiosity around that human behavior. And I actually didn’t want to go into HR because I thought at the time, way back when I joined, it was a lot about just like Personnel right back in the day. But I just I love solving problems. And I love business. And I love people. And I love problem solving. And so it was never an intentional, like something I set out to do. It was always about curious and learning and raising my hand when opportunities came knocking, and then box. So I have had incredible opportunities. Again, I’ve just been so fortunate. And yet, to me culture, community leaders absolutely are what matters. And so that’s what brought me to box in that what keeps me up box pressure.

Maria Ross 04:13

I love it. I love it. And so tell us, you know, again, from your vantage point, as an H as an HR leader of a very large organization, how are your leaders doing post pandemic, we hear all the reports, we see all the studies about how leaders are kind of being squeezed from both ends. I know you and I have talked about that in the past. How are they doing in terms of navigating the new workplace and and all the the newfound demands of the business with the demands of their people? Yeah,

Jessica Swank 04:41

I think this is an incredibly challenging time for leaders, for managers, for employees, just because the rate of information right it’s just it’s just Mach speed to just try and keep up with technology, the pressures of the business to perform to deliver you know, Wall Street Being a global public company, something that we grapple with, you know, this sense of caring, compassion listening to our boys, right? I think we just are asked to do a lot. And we’re all human. I mean, I find my that, you know, you and I’ve talked about this a little bit Maria. But it’s hard. Some days are hard. And some days, we don’t want to show up as leaders or as managers. And yet, we do our best to just show up regardless, though, want to take

Maria Ross 05:24

completely. And that’s the thing is I always talk about empathy going both ways. And we have to remember that it’s not just from leaders to employees, it’s up and down the chain. It’s having empathy for the people that are in charge, who are have to have to make these tough decisions who have so much on their plate. And you know, and it’s funny, because I’m asking you that question as if you’re removed from it, but you are a leader who is raised in the middle to write as, and I think we forget that about HR sometimes is we forget that they’re dealing with the same issues and crises that the rest of the business is dealing with. But we always look to HR to sort of solve our problems for us.

Jessica Swank 06:00

Yes, yes, I remember a silly story. But I remember the fall, my husband had COVID, my daughter had been in, here’s a drop off, like it was just horrible experience. Bono, my dog had diarrhea all over an adult present. And I just remember being like, Okay, you put it on, right? You just you show up. And that sense of like, everybody has good days, everybody has bad days. But we’re at the end of the day, we’re all human. And I think again, just going back to that sense of, how do we connect? How do we just make sure that we’re starting first with where people first and yet then we all are in this together to you know, kind of come together within our business or organization.

Maria Ross 06:37

I love that. And so part of the reason why I’m so excited to have you on again, being in the trenches is, what are some ways that box is putting that into action. So as you’ve as you’ve sort of tried to get your own feet as an executive team on Okay, how are we feeling? But also okay, what do we need to do in the business to support our leaders? What are some initiatives that you’re doing to support leaders right now and help them better balance this, this juggling act they have?

Jessica Swank 07:05

Yeah, so we talk a lot about having really high expectations, but a high level of support at this end. So it’s both of those things, saying be very clear about this is what we expect, here’s our priorities, and yet saying, but we want to enable you, we want to help set you up for success. So from a leader standpoint, we have a lot of kind of group activities. So we have what we call our executive leadership team, our FLT all of our directors, and above, where we have a monthly call, with our CEO with our, you know, kind of all of our leaders just to make sure we’re all aligned business strategy, we have what we call a monthly manager power hour where it is, is, you know, essentially enabling managers on kind of topics. We have listening circles, or depending on the various topics, we have a weekly basis, what we call Friday lunch, and that is also our opportunity to come together as a business and know our Theo shares, Aaron Lavie, we also use the opportunity to bring in customers again, hearing that customer perspective, yeah, we give them boy and Doctor update. So we try and really focused on very high level transparency, a lot of communication, and again, a lot of alignment on what are the business goals, and then translating that down into Ingles, and then individual goals.

Maria Ross 08:28

Okay, I love this so much. Because, as you know, with my new book, coming out the empathy dilemma, it’s talking about five pillars that are essential to be both empathetic, but also high performing and accountable at the same time. And you’re basically hitting all of them. So this, but this idea of, like, what some might deem as excessive communication, and collaboration, it’s never too much like, this is why clarity and decisiveness are two of the five pillars in the book, because we can’t, we can’t be clear enough, like, and what I love about what you said was this idea of holding both high expectations, but also the expectation that you will be supported. Because I think that’s where especially clarity is so important is that we’re going to be crystal clear with you, whatever level you are at the expectations we have of you. And then we actually inkind you don’t get off the hook, you actually have to be accountable for being clear with us about what support you need. And we are going to make a commitment to you that if it’s if whatever is possible, we will do to support you, instead of just let me set the expectations and throw you in the water and hope you swim, which is I think, easier, quote unquote, for a lot of leaders to do, but it’s not sustainable, and it actually doesn’t lead to high performance.

Jessica Swank 09:49

Yeah. And a couple of things to build on what you said. And I completely agree, though we talk a lot as part of our performance cycle that we major both what are we getting those high expectations measured by quarterly OKRs. But we also talked about the how. So we have four leader mindsets we call business team, self, and community all anchored on our values. And it was, again, that expectation, as we say, we we have incredibly high standards. But just as important is what you do. It’s how you do it and exemplifying our values our culture, again, contributing to not only be the business, but to your team, and your community. And so I do think that sense of asked to be bold. And you also said something that I think is incredibly important. It’s not just up to then the business to stay, here’s what I need from you. It is incredibly important and valuable for every person, to have that open dialogue with their managers, ask them when they need support, ask them for, you know, clarification, ask them for that feedback. 360s. Right, making sure that it’s not just sitting back and waiting to be told, but also engaging in that dialogue.

Maria Ross 11:01

I love that so much. And, you know, you brought up another point in terms of not just what the what but the how, because, you know, going back to like my brand strategy work that I’ve done. It’s making value, and mission and purpose, useful and actionable. So it’s not just the pretty poster on the wall that we never revisit, ever again. But how do we tie that to the actions and the goals that we have in front of us right now. And it’s not just going to be enough to meet that goal, because this is where you get toxic rockstars, right, they might achieve the goal or make their number and they’ve like, scorched the earth behind them, right. And they’ve made it a horrible work environment for everyone else around them. And if a company still reward someone like that, what they’re saying with their actions is that that value doesn’t mean anything. And that’s what you know, we all say actions speak louder than words. Other people notice, like, yeah, the company saying that caring about each other, or empathy or service is important. But then that person’s getting ahead. Every quarter, they get promoted, they get acknowledged, they get recognized, just for meeting the goal, not for how they met the goal. And I think that’s such a key part of empathetic cultures, which is so good to hear that you you tie that together every time you talk about it

Jessica Swank 12:18

every time and I think two threads with that. One is the cultures have to be embedded into every single thing that we do, right? Your point, it can’t just be a poster, we have them on the back of our badges, right? Yes, that is important. But it is the tip of the iceberg. So you know, we have awards that we align on. So we have our you know, cloud Awards, where we exemplify boxers who are exemplified in our values are a value we have, you know, a lot of, again, it’s integrated into every single thing that we do. And yet, in those difficult decisions, right? It’s easy to do when it’s you know, everything’s going well is when really, you have that really, you know, we used didn’t label athletes not even very recently, anymore. About four years ago, we had to make a really difficult decision with one of those rock stars. And compared to every other company, this is the first one is still actually a pretty darn good person. It just wasn’t yet to our level of expectations. And so again, it’s making those very difficult decisions. Otherwise, it erodes the trust and the credibility and I think it’s easier, better, probably not going to say something, you’re not going to actually be willing to stand behind it.

Maria Ross 13:27

Right? Well, and sometimes leaders conflate not saying anything as empathy, they conflate avoiding the conflict and hurting someone’s feelings as Oh, I’m doing the empathetic thing. But they’re actually not being empathetic to everyone that person has to work with.

Jessica Swank 13:43

And and I would also say, not even empathetic to that one person, right? Because right, is that helping somebody learn and grow and move past something that’s hindering their success? Again, doing it in a thoughtful, compassionate way. Totally. That I think is where some real magic comes from the trust of you know, an organization and people because they can say, hey, I’m growing, I’m learning. I might not get feedback. That’s always easy to hear. But does it actually make me more effective and a better person or a better, you know, kind of employee? Absolutely important, and

Maria Ross 14:16

those are crunchy conversations. But that’s where, you know, you and I were talking, we were talking before we started recording that it takes courage. And this is why I laugh when people say I don’t want to be an empathetic leader, because then people will think I’m weak. And I’m like, empathy actually requires strength, because you have to make these difficult decisions and be able to make them with compassion and be able to support someone and sit with someone, but you’re not necessarily changing the decision. Correct?

Jessica Swank 14:43

Yeah. It’s making those difficult decisions with with as much kindness which is a thoughtfulness, right, right consideration or everybody involved. One of the things that our family we say every morning is clear eyes, full heart, but does that sense of you know, you have to Go into it, you have to look at it clearly and with, you know, but also at the same time, right, having a full heart to approach it makes such a difference.

Maria Ross 15:09

Well, and I know, you know, I want to recognize that even though I say empathy is innate to all of us as humans, it looks different for some of us based on neuro diversity or past experiences, or, you know, it’s not always as accessible, that muscle is not always as toned for some of us. And so how does the company support leaders and really anyone at any level, to build that emotional intelligence to build that ability to self regulate? To see another person’s perspective? What are some of the things that you do as a company that might be some ideas for leaders listening? Yeah,

Jessica Swank 15:44

it’s really important, right? And it needs to, and I think we also have to have that empathy to, you know, that shows up differently. Exactly, yeah. And it’s not always going to be one size fits all. So a couple of things we do is one, we do a lot around our values in our learning. So we have a make mom proud session where we talk about it, which is one of our values, I’m wearing my T shirt here, make mom proud. But that sense of what does that value look like in action in real life. And so it goes through we use Apple real life box examples from the past, does not just theory. So that’s one example, to we really emphasize, again, kind of listening circles and hearing both ways and role playing, you know, and so that manager enablement, kind of, it’s not just, you know, reading a manual, but it is like, it’s this because it is a muscle, and it takes this and ongoing, you know, you can get rusty, and then you have to kind of you know, kind of reengage with it, we also do executive coaching for some of our individuals, we really believe somebody has a lot of potential, or maybe they have, you know, a blind spot that’s getting in their way. We also, you know, provide some of that, we also look a lot to some of our benefits, modern health is one. So we provide, you know, kind of coaching where somebody can go and talk to somebody professional, because again, I think sometimes looking at yourself, and then learning how to do it for the team and individual. So yeah, we try and look at it across all bases. I love

Maria Ross 17:17

that. And that’s bringing in some of my other pillars, which is self awareness and self care. And start it. You know, sometimes it’s counterintuitive to people that are seeking to be an empathetic leader, they want to put everyone else first. That’s their instinct. And that’s not exactly empathy. That’s a little bit of submission, a little bit of people pleasing. But if we start with ourselves, and kind of I always like to use the phrase, get our own houses in order, and understand what are our blind spots, what are our emotional triggers, the more we can have that courage in the moment to be able to be with someone on our team, and take in their point of view and their perspective, without fear or defensiveness. Because we know ourselves so well, we know how we show up in conversations like that. And so it’s kind of counterintuitive, but the first step to empathy for others is working on yourself.

Jessica Swank 18:07

100% Yes, I totally agree. And I think that understanding, I always say that self care is also knowing and drawing your own boundaries. Yes. He says to me, I think it’s so easy to think like I to your point, I’m just going to take care of everybody else all the time, but then we’re depleted. And so knowing where and when it does, again, doesn’t look the same for everybody, but what are those supercharging moments where we get to fill our own tank, so that we can show up the best way possible for others, you know, so, you know, recent example. So I am a very passionate person. And I also, you know, I work really hard on staying super objective. And the other, you know, night, I was in a pretty intense call over something that was really difficult conversation. And I said, we, this is so important, can we talk about this tomorrow, and it was so hard for me to call the conversation. But then the next day, we picked it back up, and we had a really productive, healthy conversation. But I knew in that moment, I was like, okay, all my flags of like, I’m not gonna show up the way that I want to, or we’re not getting the best outcome out of this one,

Maria Ross 19:13

right. And that requires knowing, recognizing that those triggers are starting to happen for you. And there’s so many people that sort of go through life, like a bulldozer, just not not seeing what’s happening to other people, but also not being able to recognize what’s happening for themselves. And, you know, that’s also part of the clarity that we that I talked about is clarity and setting those boundaries. So you need to be self aware enough to know what those boundaries should be. Take care of yourself to respect those boundaries, but also clearly be able to communicate that as well. Yeah. So I love that that’s so great. And you’re reminding me of, you know, again, kind of back to that self care issue. One of the things I write about in the book is that, you know, self care is not Manny’s and Petty’s it’s not massages it can be but that’s more self maintenance, right? Self care that the way we’re really talking about Audit is how to understand what recharges you or where you need rest or what energizes you. And so it can be very active. It can be, you know, for some people self care is running a marathon, or, you know, when when I was working in corporate, I love doing independent theater. And I was in a very supportive workplace where it wasn’t like I had to miss work for it. But they knew like I had to leave at certain times when I was going to rehearsals because I had to go to rehearsal. And then my team came and supported me at the performance, right? So it was really fun. And there was another woman in our group who is a trained opera singer. And she really needed to sing, she wanted to do this summer opera program, this summer music program, and got the support from management to do it, and then stayed many, many more years with that company, because they were able to support her in herself care. Yeah, which is, you know, sometimes it’s hobbies, or passions or whatever. That’s part of our self care. I think we overlooked that sometimes when we talk about self care for leaders, because they think, Oh, it’s too selfish.

Jessica Swank 21:07

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think do I really believe that if you’re writing personally, it actually helps you thrive professionally. And that symbiotic, right? And if you’re really thriving and finding those areas that are really new up and adding to, you know, that rejuvenation, then you can show up even more effective. Now, I’m also a big believer, and it’s, you know, I think people asking me about work life balance, I actually don’t think there’s any such thing. It doesn’t exist.

Maria Ross 21:36

It’s a myth.

Jessica Swank 21:37

I call it you know, kind of like work, work integration. Yeah. Because to me, like, you know, I, it’s really important for me to spend some time with my daughter. But that also means that sometimes then I get back on later, you know, in a day, and so it doesn’t always mean like, Hey, here’s my, you know, I don’t answer a call after five o’clock. And that’s my boundary, and I’m gonna stick to it. But it’s knowing where and when and how to set those boundaries and really prioritize within your kind of the work life and the personal life. I

Maria Ross 22:05

always joke that if work life balance was real, we would be giving like 11.1% to everything in our lives, right? It would all be equal. But sometimes, different levers have to go higher and lower. Like, if you’ve got a family emergency, your family has to come first, right? If you’ve got a deadline with a client, you might have to work late. And I think that there’s something to be said, in workplaces to help new people in the workplace understand that because I think that many people have, I don’t want to say like, morphed the definition of work life integration, but they think it means one thing, like you said, like just being hard and fast with that boundary and never changing and never allowing for anything. But life is not like that. No one’s life is like that. And no one’s work is like that. So being able to understand that like, Okay, we’re gonna go hard. And I might have to work a weekend to solve this crisis at work. But then I’m going to make up for it in two weeks, I might take an extra afternoon off, like if that’s what we mean by work life balance and having boundaries, correct.

Jessica Swank 23:10

Seasons, we each have these seasons. Exactly.

Maria Ross 23:14

And I think that that’s important, too. I love that the new generations in the workplace are changing the conversation and changing the paradigm. I also think they need to be mentored a little bit about some of the hard and fast rules they have around things. And so you know, where they can where they can take that and say, like, No, my boundaries, I never work after 5pm ever, right? Life at work is not like that. It’s not that discrete. And so it’s like, okay, let’s figure out a way to make this work for everybody, and be able to integrate your work in life. So I think there’s something there, we need some sort of a little like, life coaching module for everyone in the workplace on what work life integration means.

Jessica Swank 24:00

having empathy for blue eyes, right? You just say like, this is what I need. And it’s all about just what I need. Right? What do I need was my team need? What is the business need? What is my customer need? Right? Again, sometimes dialing up and down depending on that, but and go both ways. Completely

Maria Ross 24:18

completely, because like, I love what I love the term you used about there are seasons. Right? So um, so let’s talk a little bit. I just want to switch gears, as we’re kind of wrapping up and talk about what are the challenges or the opportunities that you have all found at box around, experimenting with hybrid remote work in this new world of work that we’re in? Because what I love hearing is the journey of companies have like, you know, we haven’t gotten it all figured out. But these are the different things we’re trying and this is what we have found to be a good mix for us. Where are you guys are in that journey? Yeah,

Jessica Swank 24:55

well, a couple of words that you said that I think are spot on. If it isn’t a journey. It is The biggest experiment that I think we’re all going through my gosh, on the journey, and we’re doing some things well, and then we’re like, oh, that didn’t work so well is trying to different ways. So where we are on the journey is, we believe that we need and have it all. We do have workplaces that are absolutely instrumental to our culture, to our sense of community. And we want people to be able to come in and what we’ve found and the research that, you know, kind of what we’ve experienced, but also have heard is, you know, it’s not necessarily your direct gain connections that strengthen when you come together, it’s a lot of the loose connections, it’s the social capital of cross functional teams learning from you know, mentoring, observing, that is really important. And so again, I think that serendipitous piece of coming together, and yet, we also really want we are going to always have remote folks, it whether it’s because their role, so we have, you know, sales folks who are out in the field, their job is remote, or people who have chosen to be remote and are in roles that can be effective remote. And so what we’re trying to do is create these norms. And you know, what we’re trying to call it is like, this is just how we work. This is how we are as an organization, and then again, the looping not into all things, you know, how do we from a diversity standpoint, make sure that we’re thinking about that, you know, the experience of the remote Doctor versus the person who’s coming into office? How do we think about it as we scale and as we grow? So yes, we’re doing a lot of experimenting. But again, I love you know, a lot of times we it’s, I would say we’ve we’ve come a long way, yeah, being able to bring people together.

Maria Ross 26:39

Yeah, well, and I love from, you know, when I met you many, many months ago, what I loved was that box was willing to do that experimentation, and say, Okay, we’re doing something, and maybe this isn’t working, let’s try something else. That adaptability. And that resilience is what’s required. And I know, for a lot of companies that have leaders that just kind of want to go back to the way things were right, because it was easier, and they didn’t have to think about it. And I have empathy for that, right? It’s hard to constantly be adapting, it’s exhausting. But that willingness to do it, I think, is what’s going to be the marker of successful companies going forward, because we’re not going back, like people have seen a new way that they can innovate and create and get work done. And we’ve just got to find a happy medium, between, you know, like, with all the benefits that we get when we’re together. And, you know, all the benefits that some people get when they’re able to work out of their home and deal with whatever they’re dealing with at home or their own, you know, potentially different needs, that they have physical needs, mental needs, whatever it is. And so the willingness, I was just struck by the willingness of box to take that journey and say, we’re going to try it, we’re going to try different things. And you do so many wonderful things within your workspaces to make it a very collaborative and inviting and inclusive environment. And I know that that’s, that’s from listening to your employees, and not just trying to figure it out in a closed door session without any input from anyone. So I just wanted to like say, shout out to box for doing it that way. What do you think was, uh, you know, kind of as we as we do wrap up here, because I could talk to you for three hours. What do you think was part of that way of gathering that information from employees and finding out what was working for them? What wasn’t? Was that already part of your culture? Or is that something that, like, Can you give any advice to someone listening of like, how do you even start compiling, getting accessing that information so that you can be listening and all voices are heard in those conversations? Yeah,

Jessica Swank 28:45

so it’s a great question. One is I do think it was part of our DNA in many ways, but that we’ve built on and figure it out, right? What’s working again, and what’s not working. I’m a big believer in experimentation. So a couple of things. We did a lot of listening circles and listening circles from impacted, you know, all different spectrums. But we also have an annual blog called Dr. Experience survey. And so we included a question on that, you know, and what we found, actually, last year was, the flexibility was top of the list of what boxers appreciated about our approach so far. And so that’s something even as we continue to refine that sense of flexibility of being able to say, you know, whether it’s a which day you work from home and or which hours you work, and, you know, kind of going back to that integrating of lives, and little things, you know, some of it is we’ve gotten a lot of asks, and some of them were saying, Thank you. That’s a great suggestion. However, we’re not able to do that. But here’s the reasons why. And again, I think that going back to clarity of kindness, and that sense of like, we hear you, however, a b and c, right, and just being able to have that very open and transparent conversation, not just kind of pretending like you know, bla bla bla, I don’t want to hear it. Yeah,

Maria Ross 30:00

exactly putting your hands over your ears. Well, and I love that, because that’s also very good to celebrate, and to acknowledge people being feeling safe enough to give the feedback. So you don’t end up discouraging future feedback. Because what could easily happen is you go, No, that’s a terrible idea. We’re not doing it right, which how some companies are actually reacting to their employees, you have now you have now stifled any future contribution or idea that that person is willing to make. And so I love the approach you said, which is super empathetic, it’s like, that’s a great idea. Thank you so much for bringing to us, we’ve looked at it. But here’s why that’s not going to be feasible right now. Or you may find that someone gives an idea. And initially, that’s not workable, but there might be pieces of it that you can implement from into going forward. So I think just constantly encouraging people and thanking people for their feedback, because what I often hear from leaders is, yeah, but if I ask everyone for their feedback, that they’re going to assume that I’m just going to do what everybody wants. And like, you know, you don’t have to set that expectation, you can set the episode station that you’re going to consider all the input, and make sure that you encourage and thank for the input in a genuine way. Not not because you know, you’re never going to do it. But and then really get humble and say, Is there something in this that could be useful? Rather than I already know that my mind’s made up, but you guys have two weeks to tell me what you what you think about it, because that’s what happens is, again, in the expediency trying to like, let me just get this over with and tick a box that I asked everybody what they thought, it’s doing it in a very genuine way where that is factored into your decision making. But and I write about this in the new book, you have to be able to synthesize an act and decide quickly.

Jessica Swank 31:43

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, sometimes that’s the hardest part, right? It takes a lot more time, a lot more energy. But I’m a big believer that the outcome and the results pay off in spades if you do that. And that’s also right balancing what again, what a an individual employee might want, but also the realities of the business, right, we get asked a lot or No, I would love to give everybody everything that they would have on the wish list. We just the business realities of where we have to allocate resources. And so we’ve been very clear and trying to say like, Okay, this is not going to be the top of the priority. Here’s why. But yeah, if we can, you know, hit a revenue hit our business priorities, here are things that then are going to be next on the list, like, why does this travel? Right? Our employees have been begging, like, we want to see each other, not just the people that are, you know, in the same city, but we want to be able to see each other around the world. And so we’ve been building in, you know, kind of more travel budget, based on the realities of kind of where we are. Right, right. I think

Maria Ross 32:44

building a culture of why and knowing that for every decision being able to explain why tracks back to clarity. Yeah, yeah, sure. And that trust, and trust for sure. 100%. Last question, for real. Notice sort of the one piece of advice you would advise. So maybe there’s a really frazzled CHRO or head of HR listening to this right now. And they say, Oh, my gosh, all this stuff sounds great. But we don’t have any of that foundation in place. Where’s one place they could start? Or one piece of advice you would have for them on how to best support their leaders right now?

Jessica Swank 33:20

It’s a great question, I would say, find a couple of opportunities, both that would be low hanging fruit, something that would be relatively easy to implement. But then also find the one that is probably the more difficult, but that it’s going to be harder, but there’s gonna have the biggest impact, and maybe choosing one of each of those to then go and tackle. I’m a big believer in prioritization, I always say, you know, it’s all about juggling, and you’re gonna drop the balls, just make sure that the balls that they’re going to bounce prior to the shatter. So like, find some of those that if you can, like, you know, pick up or if you drop, okay, but then some of those where you say, yes, if I can go and execute and deliver on this with my business with our boys, it actually is going to make a big difference, right?

Maria Ross 34:07

And then you can always check on something else after that. We don’t have to do all the things all at once, right?

Jessica Swank 34:11

Absolutely. fail if you try.

Maria Ross 34:15

Once, in my humble opinion, I wrote down what you just said about like, we’re all going to be juggling the balls and the goal is to have the bounce rather than shatter. That is that’s a keeper thing. balls

Jessica Swank 34:24

that are gonna bounce back up. We’re gonna create the bigger mess.

Maria Ross 34:30

I love it. I love it. Well, thank you, Jessica, so much for your time and all your insights. Today, we’re gonna have all your links in the show notes. But where’s one place that folks can get in touch with you and learn more about what you’re doing?

Jessica Swank 34:41

Yeah, so I’m actually not super into social media for my own personal well being. Um, however, LinkedIn is the best place to find me. Great.

Maria Ross 34:50

And for those listening, just look under Jessica Venner swing. And remember to be a good LinkedIn user and write her note about what You are connecting and where you heard her so she doesn’t think you’re trying to sell her something.

Jessica Swank 35:04

I would love to hear from you. Yes, thank

Maria Ross 35:06

you so much and continued great success at box and all the work you’re doing thank you for sort of being a leader in the in the empathetic culture space right now. Well,

Jessica Swank 35:16

and thank you for what you’re doing and helping to write about it and just brand this incredibly important topic. And again, not having to be just, you know, soft and fluffy, but really the impact that it can have on our business on our customers, our employees, and I think about us, each of us personally, so for sure, I’m excited for your new

Maria Ross 35:34

book as well. Thanks. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate review, follow share with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Gautam Shah: Exercising with a Snow Leopard: Video Games to Engage Wildlife Conservation

Visiting snow leopards in their natural habitat or hanging with penguins in Antarctica is a life-changing way to engage with nature but it’s not within the grasp of most people. So how can we leverage technology to offer that exposure and foster empathy for wildlife conservation? My guest today, Gautam Shah, figured out a way to combine his passion with entrepreneurship to connect people with wildlife in fun, unique ways.

Today we talk about why public engagement with wildlife is so important, and how using games can be more effective than current conservation tactics. Gautam shares some very cool examples of work they’ve done with partners such as Adidas and the Monterey Bay Aquarium. We talk about empathy vs. caring, how “behavior change” is not the primary goal of this work, and why many current conservation messages can derail efforts to engage everyday people by not having empathy for them. Toward the end, he candidly discusses the challenges entrepreneurs face to balance purpose with profit and the hard choices that one has to make to keep the organization alive and sustainable for the long haul.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

If everyone had the opportunity to sit with an endangered animal, how many people would it change in favor of the planet? Though that’s not possible, there are ways people can engage individually in the change.
Compassion is empathy in action. Empathetic people don’t suffer from a lack of caring, but often from not knowing how to take action.
Internet of Elephants is using modern, creative ways to engage people in the story of conservation and making the stories told by the data gathered on the animals personal. They are making the stories of these animals personal to the individual.

“It’s a holistic process of thinking about the person and understanding their life before you can have any opportunity to think that you can introduce empathy for animals that might be very, very far away.”

— Gautam Shah

Episode References:

FathomVerse: https://www.fathomverse.game/

About Gautam Shah, Founder, Internet of Elephants, National Geographic and TED fellow

Gautam is the founder of Internet of Elephants, a social enterprise that develops groundbreaking digital tools to engage people with wildlife. He believes that engaging the public with nature and its conservation is the most important thing we can do for the long-term health of the planet and that we need to find modern mediums to tell stories and foster that engagement. Video games are the defining media of our time, so Internet of Elephants tells nature and wildlife stories through thoughtful combinations of mobile games, augmented reality, and data visualizations that use GPS and other data gathered about animals and the planet. In doing so, they hope to catalyze whole new approaches to engaging the public with wildlife. Gautam is both a National Geographic and TED Fellow.

Connect with Gautam Shah:

Internet of Elephants: http://internetofelephants.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/internetofelephants/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ioelephants

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Gautam Shah 03:14

Thanks very much. It’s very nice to be here.

Maria Ross 03:16

And you know, I’d love to tell folks our story of how we know each other. We know each other from college at Indiana University. And it’s been decades since we’ve reconnected but you’ve gone on to do quite a few impressive things. So for just a quick couple minutes. Tell us your story and how you got to this work.

Gautam Shah 03:33

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I started my right out of college right out of Indiana University. The only job offer I got was from a big IT consulting company called Accenture. Well, at that time, it was called Anderson Consulting. Yep. So I took that I took that job. And for the better part of for the better part of 20 years, I was working as an IT consultant for for Accenture. What I’ve always loved though was was animal and wildlife. And that’s, you know, that’s something that I think we all have as kids, but for me, it was just maybe it was a little stronger. It was just something that I was able to keep in touch with a little bit more. And so I would spend all my holiday time and all my salary on wildlife vacation, and I would travel the world and I would be without them. And I’ve been you know, I’ve been with everything I’ve been with, you know, you name the animal I’d probably you know I probably had some experience with with that. And I remember that I remember the moment very, very specifically I was it was in Antarctica, and I was sitting alone at the edge and it was a penguin. And I could see the entire you know, the entire ocean. And this penguin I’m sitting on like this is so spectacular. And it’s so gluttonous. Like the only person that’s benefiting from this particular experiences is me. And it was really a moment that was like this is I can’t I can’t go I mean, it’s so amazing, but it can’t take along this way at some point in my life. I’m going to have to figure out maybe it’s in wildlife or maybe it’s, you know in something else, but I’m going to have to figure out how I can put myself to better use then, and then what I’m doing now, fast forward a few years I got sent to Kenya, as again, as part as as part of Accenture. And I started getting a lot more exposure to lots of other, you could call them nonprofit sectors in agriculture, education, health, you could not get US economic empowerment. And I had a role to play in all of those, even though I knew nothing about nothing about them. And that gave me the confidence that there’s a role for me to play in wildlife and conservation and applying this, you know, to something that I really care about. So the way I see it is I put my perfectly good job, and was like, Alright, let me get into wildlife conservation. And, you know, and started to try and figure it out from there. And also, given that I was already in Kenya, and from Chicago. It didn’t make sense to start, you know, to travel back to Chicago to start my wildlife conservation career. Exactly. Right. And so yeah, so I liked Kenya. And you know, that’s where a lot of you know, a lot of conservation work is going on a lot of the problems exist. Yeah. And so I stayed, and I’ve actually, you know, I’ve been in Kenya ever since. Wow. And

Maria Ross 06:08

so how did the idea for Internet of elephants come about specifically? Sure. Well,

Gautam Shah 06:15

if we kind of go back to that moment, that I was sitting with the penguin, and it was like this tacular, or the moment that I was sitting with grizzly bears over the Rocky Mountains, or you again, you name it, they’re really intense experiences. They’re very, they’re very emotional, at least for me, they’re very emotional. And so just getting back to like, What if everybody could have this experience? And of course, they can. Yeah, but what if everybody could have this experience? How would that change the state of the world, if everybody had that those moments, like, if you could pick up 8 billion people and let them spend an hour with Iran, your time, you know, in the middle of a Bornean, rainforest? With 10% of those people, then you know what, it just wouldn’t change them with the way they buy things with the way they vote with the way they donated with the way that they live? Would it change, you know, just reshape it in favor of the, you know, in favor of the planet? And that’s what kind of really got me thinking about, alright, well, again, that can’t happen. But what are the things that I that I could do that might be the next, you know, the next best thing, and that’s, you know, again, my brain, of course, being an IT consultant for that many years, just thinks about, you know, thinks about it, and a lot of what was what was happening at that time was there’s a lot of talk about the Internet of Things, and how everything is connected. And people are connected to other people around the world, people are connected to the refrigerators people are connected to their doorbells. And I just kept thinking, Yeah, but what if people were connected to Iran, batons? And what if people were connected to elephants? And what if people were connected to sniff? You know, whatever, whatever it happened to be again? How would that how would that change things? And that’s where it’s like, well, what if, instead of the Internet of Things, what if there was an Internet of elephants, you know, in a way, and every day, you would wake up and you’d check what’s going on with, you know, my story of the elephant in Kenya? And that’s really where I just started to think about like, Okay, well, that’s the, you know, the basis for the concept. I don’t know what the business is behind that. But that’s what we’re going to try, you know, that’s what we’re going to try and achieve, we’re gonna try and figure out what would it take for you to get up in the morning, first thing, leaned over, pick up your phone and find out what’s going on with an elephant, you know, halfway around the halfway around the. So I love

Maria Ross 08:30

that. And I know, we’re going to talk about a few examples of what the technology does for people and how how you’ve creatively found ways to create that connection. But, you know, the reason we’re here is obviously, because there’s a connection to empathy here. And we talk about empathy being made possible through storytelling, but also through proximity. And so what I’m hearing is that you are trying to find a solution to the proximity problem of being able to see and have the experience and be touched by these animals, for people that don’t have the opportunity to go to Safari or go to Antarctica and all these places. So it’s really interesting how you leverage your your already existing skill of technology, to that social problem. And for you, was it about you know, and the answer could be No, but was it about trying to create that connection and create that, that caring that empathy, so that people would make different choices?

Gautam Shah 09:30

I think 100 100% I think empathy is the, you know, happens to be the right word. Very convenient. But yeah, so it is, it is about empathy. I, I don’t think it’s about caring. And I think this is a really, this is a really important point. And it’s something that in fact, I think, if you want people to empathize, you have to come come at it from the point that they already do care because otherwise it’s condescending, right like that. Now, I’m not trying to create empathy. I’m, I’m saying, like, in this position, like I really care and I just gotta get you to care and if only you care Everything would be, you know, it would be better and and pay. That’s, you know, that’s very pompous and be it’s, it’s not true people do care. Yeah.

Maria Ross 10:09

A lot. Yeah, it doesn’t mean they connect and see a point of view, it just means they care. It’s like how we talked about Yeah.

Gautam Shah 10:14

But we’re gonna we’re gonna do it. I mean, there’s nobody that would rather Uranga tons die then longer tons, you know, then Rhonda, tons live right? Next, it’s not about that. So there is some aspect of proximity, there is some aspect of what can i What can I do about it? There is some aspect of how do you enjoy address the, you know, the, the anxiety that people that people have, or the ambivalence that you know, that people that people have about this. And so a lot of it is that you can’t create the empathy unless you can understand unless I have empathy for you. So what the only way to create the empathy between you and the animal is if I can have empathy in the first place for your life, you know, for your life and the things that these things, you know, the way that you may experience negative news about nature and negative news about climate and like, I live here in St. Louis, like what, you know, what am I going to do about it, but you know, in a longer time in, you know, in Borneo, and yeah, it’s a very holistic process of thinking about the person and understanding their lives before you can have any opportunity to think that you know, that you can introduce empathy for, for animals that might be very, very far away, but I’m never trying to get them to care. I always try and come from a position that you do care. I just wanted to help you express that. Yes,

Maria Ross 11:32

exactly. And, you know, I tend to use other words to help people make this real for people. But we talk a lot about how empathy is not the same thing as being nice. It’s not the same thing as caring. It’s a different lever. And you can have empathy. But if you don’t take action on that empathy, which is compassion, compassion is empathy, inaction. That’s where it can be paralyzing. And it can, it can deter people from even feeling the empathy in the first place, because oh, there’s nothing I can do about it. So I’m just not going to be empathetic to the situation that’s going on. And so it sounds like you’re also trying to activate people, in whatever way it’s possible for them to take action. Is that correct? Yeah,

Gautam Shah 12:13

I think that that’s, that’s true. And we really, I guess, I want everything to come from you. Right? Like, I just want to enable it, enable it, I don’t want to tell you what you should do. I don’t want to try and change I like the term behavior change sometimes troubled me, I get it. Like, we all know what it means. But it’s also like, who am I to change your behavior, like, that’s not what you know, what we’re what we’re trying to do, I just want you to have exposure, and have access, and have a little joy in your life or a little sadness in your life or, you know, whatever that happens to be, you can make your own decisions about, you know, what you’re going to do with it. And that’s not going to happen overnight. I you know, I also don’t expect that like I never, we never try and make a game or a product, it’s like, okay, and then we’re going to measure this by how many people you know, change their behavior in two months. Like, that’s not how that’s not how these things work. That’s not how it works, or long, it’s a long term, you know, it’s a long term process, and it has to come from it has to come from you. I’m just trying to tease out these values that I think people have and just are always bombarded with most of the conservation messaging, I think that happens, actually has a negative effect. It has a positive effect for that small set of, you know, already converted. But if you’re trying to, you know, if you’re trying to broaden the tent, just constantly being poked with guilt, and constantly being poked with, like, awful images, or polar bears floating away on ice things are emaciated and ragged, that like that just, it’s just not going to, it’s not going to have it’s probably having a negative effect. Well,

Maria Ross 13:51

I love that, because that’s about having empathy for the people that are receiving the message and understanding that they are completely going to receive it from where they are. And, you know, I love how you’re balancing this, this, this purpose, with the entrepreneurial reality of you have to know your customer, you have to know what is going to resonate for them. Yeah,

Gautam Shah 14:13

and that’s what any business would do, right? Like every business would look at things from a customer’s you know, from the customer’s point of view, what is the customer data conservation sector serve, it doesn’t do that. It looks at things from their own point of view is like, Well, what do we need? We need these people to donate? What do we need? We know we need to it’s been one of the first things ever I wrote and published was it was about like, treating conservation, like a business, just from that point of view of like, how can we see things through the eyes of the customer of, you know, of conservation, and I’ve got to give a lot. I mean, I need to make sure that I give a lot of credit to a lady named Dr. Rene Eilertsen, who is the one that taught me a lot about, you know, the ambivalence that people feel the anxiety that that people you know, that they feel and I, when we message, and when we write the text in our games, and we talk with people, etc, that if we’re not taking that into account, we’re going to, you know, we’re just going to fall into the, you know, we’re going to fall into the same trap. So we’ve certainly learned a lot from from her. And all she does in terms of how she talks about climate anxiety and how, you know, we need to change the narrative, around climate around nature and so forth to be from the point of view of the of the person receiving it. Yeah,

Maria Ross 15:27

it’s absolutely I mean, I’ve done brand story work with nonprofits. And it’s, it’s getting them to have that shift of actually, the people or the group that you’re ultimately trying to help is important. But you are talking to the people that you’re trying to catalyze to help them and so they have different needs and different drivers than your actual, quote, unquote, end clients. And that is a huge epiphany for them to understand that, oh, we’ve been using guilt, we’ve been using the you know, in some cases, just the moral imperative. And like I said, about empathy, some, that’s not enough sometimes. And so it’s really about understanding where your people are, that you are talking to, and, and trying to give them that exposure and give them that story that could or could not compel them into some sort of action. But I love what you said about not wanting to be prescriptive about that behavior change, because that’s also off putting for people to from, from the social sector. right through it. Yeah, exactly.

Gautam Shah 16:31

Do this. Yeah, exactly. And especially like, if I think about like, Okay, we make games in many cases. And if it’s just very clear that this is a game that’s trying to get me to do something nobody wants, that’s not what people want, when they when they’re playing a game. That’s not what this is not what you you know, so my

Maria Ross 16:46

nine year old says that when we try to like, is this a learning game? Yeah,

Gautam Shah 16:50

yeah, exactly. Yeah. So.

Maria Ross 16:52

So let’s real quick dive into, you know, using these modern approaches, using gaming as a way to tell stories about nature and wildlife. So give us some examples about the things that the company does and the partnerships that they’ve built. Yeah,

Gautam Shah 17:09

sure. So funny. Also, to just say, modern approaches, it’s like,

Maria Ross 17:14

they’re actually not that mod is 2020,

Gautam Shah 17:16

these 2024, right, like, video games have been around since you know, whatever, the 50s. And they’ve been popular since the, you know, since the 80s. So so the idea that it’s even that is the people even still think that gaming is modern and avant garde, it’s such a sector, it’s crazy. There’s 3.2 billion people that play them. It’s a bigger industry than sports, movies, and television, you know, combined, but it’s still kind of in the in certain worlds. It’s still clubbed as you know, as well, I

Maria Ross 17:43

think what’s modern about it is the approach spirit to catalyze something. Where it to me, yeah, help people help improve help. Further purpose. I think that’s what’s sort of the modern approach is like, realizing there’s this hugely popular, hugely lucrative market have out there. But leveraging that for good.

Gautam Shah 18:05

In a way. Yeah. But yeah, it’s amazing that that is, you know, again, that that is considered something modern, something new. Yeah. What have we been doing? We’ve been doing, we just keep making films and documentaries and documentaries, and documenting how are we ignoring this channel, which is an amazing storytelling channel, which gets people deep into a story it gives them, it gives them agency, it gives them the chance to take, you know, to take actions, it’s measurable, it’s like every single thing, you know, that it’s it’s that, you know, that often is not but but yeah, sadly, it is still moderate. So let’s take Okay, so I’ll give you an example. You know, an example of something we didn’t build. But I think is, you know, perhaps that, you know, the best example of the of the way that we think about these things, I had always thought like, well, because I’m I geek out on the data. And there’s a lot of wildlife data that’s happening. And actually, as a company, we started by thinking, how can we tell stories from data, and there’s all this data that’s being collected by scientists and conservationists and find it’s being used for scientific purposes. But actually, it could be could potentially engaged, you know, an entire world. And so there’s a lot of GPS data on animals and how they in how they move. And remember what I was doing with me yesterday, just thinking about like, but wouldn’t it be really neat to like, I also have data from my watch that tells me how much I moved today. Like how many steps did I take today? Or how far did you know how far did I run? I wonder what that mountain you know what that snow leopard in you know, in Mongolia is you know, he’s doing on a daily basis as well. And I wonder like on a daily basis, like how many steps is he getting in? Yeah, just how many steps is he getting and how many stairs is he getting, you know, going, you know, going going up and down to a cigar. But that would be you know, that could be really interesting. And you could have animals at all sorts of different levels. And that’s how we should do that and there’s already fitness outside. out there, like, how am I gonna get people? This is where the business side of things comes in and you know, throws a big bucket of cold water on you. It’s like, yeah, that’s the coolest idea. But how are we ever going to get people to either add another fitness app to what they do or get them to move, that’s never gonna work. So I’m gonna go into the whole details of how it came about. But we partnered with Adidas, and they’re running app called Adidas, Adidas running and said, well, they already have a running app, they’ve already got 150 million people on it, why don’t we just incorporate the data into an existing, you know, into an existing app, and let their users you know, experience it through, you know, through something that already exists, of course, we’ll have to make some compromises on, you know, our ideals of how this should be done. But we’ll also have access to a lot of people that we would never otherwise have access to. So we partnered with conservation organizations on one side, to provide the data and the stories and the expertise when we partnered with adidas on the other side to provide that provide the platform, and we embedded these challenges into, you know, into the app that said, Okay, for the next 10 days, see, if you can run more than Google in this, you know, I’m going to use the Snow Leopard example, you’ll in the snow leopard from Mongolia, and you’re not going to know how much he runs each day. And we’ll use the actual data from, you know, what he did over a period of time. And every day, when you run, when you finish, you will then see, you know, at a particular time of day, in a in a way that you then, you know, submitted his own data, and a little photograph that he took while he was running. And then a little little storyline of like, you know, he just he wrote about his own thing. And I know, some people criticize it as being sort of, what’s the word anthem, more anthropomorphizing. And, of course, you know, of course it is, but at the same time, it’s a straight storyline about their lives, and what they go through and the conservation, you know, issues that they that they face. And you have millions of people that are every day getting a little bit of light into, you know, the life of a snow leopard, or an elephant or a pangolin, or, you know, a mountain lion or some of the other animals that we, you know, that we’ve done it with? And yeah, I mean, I think like I said, I think it’s one of the best examples of what we have what we do, because if we made that ourselves, it would have been way better. And a couple of 1000 people would have, you know, a couple 1000 People would have played it, because the list of getting people to use a different fitness app would have would have been on you know, unachieved. Right. Right. So I think yeah, it’s a good example of the right way to think about it from a business point of view from an impact point of view from a reach point of view from you know, from from from all those point of view, and I think like one of the, we get a lot of press on it. But the coolest press was Runner’s World. And, and that is because Runner’s World is writing about snow leopard. Right? Like their audience, our runners, their audience, our athletes, they want to read about the newest gear and they want to read about the newest running round Central, but Runner’s World is writing about is running about snow leopard. So in that small way, we’re creating this connection between an audience demographic that I guarantee that conservation you know, like nobody’s thinking about how do we reach runners, and we’re bringing, you know, the these animals in this wildlife, you know, to this to this demographic that again, they loved it. Right. Never think about snow leopards. But if you give them the opportunity to think about, you know, think about snow leopards and do it in a fun way that already reaches them, where they’re gonna go for a run anyhow, they will think about they will think Well, well, and it’s like what they do with it is a different story. But yeah, exactly. Least it’s there. Yeah,

Maria Ross 23:42

it’s like all the best principles of education is that is tying the thing the kid doesn’t want to learn about to something they are interested in, right? Like if all of my son’s math and essay writing assignments could be tied to anime shows, or, you know, Pokemon or whatever. Yeah, he’d be, he’d be way more interested in it. And it would it would open the aperture for him of what’s possible with those disciplines. And that’s what I see you doing there. It’s like, this is tied to something you already know and love. And now we are exposing this animal, their story, the conservation issues around it, but not in a heavy handed way. Exactly. Yeah. So what what’s one that you guys have developed that you’re pretty proud of that? Yeah. Is that a good example for us?

Gautam Shah 24:31

I think probably the one that I’m most proud of is a game called will diverse, which, sadly, again, is you cannot play it anymore. But when you could, it was an augmented reality mobile game. So it was, yeah, was straight mobile game, augmented reality. And it was focused on ape conservation. And we told this we picked again, we partnered with two conservation organizations, one in Congo, and one in Indonesia. Borneo, and we focused in on four animals, you know, in Iran Catan, a gibbon, lowland gorilla and the chimpanzee and they were real. You know, again, these were real animals that real researchers were really observing with real stories. And we use the game to bring those stories to people. But the game was, you know, sort of this futuristic situation where those researchers could beam the environment to where you are. And you could help them in the research that they were, you know, that they were doing. And at the end of the day, it’s a hidden object game where you’re up, but it’s a 3d hidden object game with augmented reality where wherever you are preferably outside, you’re going around this, this, this virtual forest, and you’re looking for clues. And ultimately, you’re trying to find the Iran Catan, you’re trying to find the gibbon and you’re getting the clues, and you’re having conversations with these researchers, all the while, kind of learning what it’s like to be a researcher, learning the conservation issues, learning the individual storylines of the animals that you’re trying to find, but also just kind of having fun, looking around your, you know, your background or your parking lot, you know, trying to find the poop trying to find, you know, the fruit, the fruit that’s been thrown on, and then hopefully, eventually, you know, finding the wrong button and the you know, as the Gibbons, you know, in the trees, I just, I feel like, it was really, really thoughtful, it could have been more fun. We could end and that’s okay, we could have done that, if we had had the funding, we would have, we would have made it you know, round two or version two would have, you know, would have made it would have made it more fun. And everything that we did there was, you know, is really just kind of the first time you know that it was done. But, again, and Renee had a lot of insight, she worked with us on that project in terms of how we message and how we treated people, like we were the guides, we weren’t teachers, we weren’t professors, we weren’t, we weren’t telling you what it was, we were that we were like, if you’re going to take a walk through the jungle with a guide, that’s what you know, that’s what the experience was. Like. And we touched on really difficult topics. We touched on zoos, we touched on you know, oil palm, you know, plantations, we touched on things that many people often have this very black and white reaction to like, never eat anything with palm oil, that’s a disaster you’re killing around your towns, right? Or zoos are bad because they’re, you know, they’re caged animals. But we brought a lot of nuance into these things. And again, we weren’t trying to tell you that we were just kind of introducing through the storyline information that could you know, help you understand, you know, how you felt about it, even asking you, you know, in the game, what do you think about zoos? And you know, and there are ways for you to kind of communicate your own, you know, your own feeling? You know, for example, we partnered with zoos on this, how

Maria Ross 27:49

was it distributed? Where was that?

Gautam Shah 27:52

It was distributed through the app stores. So you could get it on Google Play? Or you could get it on Apple? The marketing strategy was to partner with the zoos. So we partnered with Chester Zoo, and with Zoo Atlanta, both of which were zoos that have very strong ape, focus. We, and so what was going to happen was that anybody that went into those zoos, and you know, they get a couple million people, you know, each year, they were gonna see that the game was available and that you could download, right? That was actually a pretty, it was a pretty physical analog marketing strategy, which is what you would think of, and the release date was April 2020. For an outdoor game that’s meant to be played outdoors. Nobody was going outdoors and be the zoos reset for you know, for six months. And when the zoos were reopening it, like their top priority wasn’t, you know, marketing, you know, again, so we got really, you know, we got we got pretty unlucky with the timing. Yeah, how that Yeah, with the time that the time Yeah.

Maria Ross 28:55

How do you How do your projects come to you? Is it you guys coming up with developing a concept and then seeing is it you know, which is the right conservation group to approach which is the right marketing partner to go through? Is that how it happens? Or do you get zoos and aquariums and conservation organizations coming to you saying, Hey, how can we gamify for this concept? I don’t know. Yeah,

Gautam Shah 29:19

we get both the projects that? Well, okay, we did a project with the Monterey Bay Aquarium, which is, you know, which is out and available. That’s probably the only example where an organization came to a lot of organizations come to us, but we almost always talk them out of doing what they you know, of what they want to what they want to do. So most of the things that we put to life have been things that we’ve, we’ve come up with, and then we think about who’s the right Deck, just like you say, who’s the right conservation partner, and therefore the beneficiary and what’s the right marketing partner to make this happen? And then yeah, what’s the right you know, what’s the right funding partner to to make it happen?

Maria Ross 29:56

Tell us about the Monterey Bay Aquarium project.

Gautam Shah 29:58

Yeah, so Monterey. The aquarium project. So it’s a product called phantom verse. And it’s the only citizen science project that we’ve worked in students is straight citizen science project. And what they’ve essentially got these rovers that are traversing the sea at all, and all sorts of deaths, taking pictures and videos of every single thing that you know that it encounters. So, you know, mostly a lot of worms. Right? Like, it isn’t like pictures of sharks and dolphins, and they might show up, but you’re talking about like crustaceans and crabs and more. And they’ve got millions and millions of the, you know, these have hours of footage and photographs. And they of course, want to identify everything, rather, they want to be at the end of the goal is to identify every single thing under the sea and see what type of new species you can find. And of course, AI plays a massive role in that, but AI needs to be trained. And with millions of images, and like five people kind of going through each of them, you’re never going to you know, you’re never going to you it’s going to take you dozens and dozens of years to even get to a place where I can where I can do the job that it needs to do. So they came to us and said like, how can we gamify this experience ident identifying under you know, underwater images, sometimes spectacular sometimes boring, sometimes on you know decipherable. But what could we do that would make that a fun experience so that we can open this up to, you know, a pretty big audience, probably people that already are interested in the ocean. But, you know, that’s everybody that goes to aquariums. So, you know, that’s essentially what we what we worked on with them. It’s like, okay, it’s really kind of getting into what’s, you know, who’s the audience? How are we going to prioritize the scientific benefit, versus, you know, the gamification and that’s always that near, especially in citizen science things, it’s that tension between, well, if it’s not scientifically valuable, then that’s not, you know, as a science organization that doesn’t help them. But if it’s not super fun, you’re never gonna get enough people to get enough data for it to be scientifically valuable. So, you know, that was a big challenge on that part, it wasn’t as much storytelling, there’s not as it’s not a big narrative, you know, type of game, but it’s one of those things that I get, like, how do you get people to be interested in wanting to identify non charismatic animals? Like, you know, like worms under, you know, under the ocean? What is it that you can evoke, in somebody’s sense of adventure, somebody’s sense of like, finding, you know, a new, you know, a new creature exploring the ocean? How do you evoke these things in a way that would make somebody wants to be, and what we came up with was, was blissfully productive. So they know that you don’t want to fool them. You don’t want to insult anybody’s intelligence by making them think they’re doing one thing, but actually, you know, actually, something else is going on. So how is it very voluntarily, like, this is so enjoyable to do? And, you know, it’s, you know, it’s helping, you know, it’s helping us, you know, discover life under the light under the ocean. And so yeah, that’s, that’s something that anybody, you know, anybody can pick up and play on their, on their mobile phone right now,

Maria Ross 33:14

that’s great, we’ll put we’ll put a link to that in the show notes. So as we as we kind of wrap up, I just want to, you know, want to take a little bit of a left turn here, because you, you are the founder of a social enterprise. And there’s a big purpose, as you described behind what you’re doing. There’s also the reality of creating a sustainable business out of it. So how do you balance? You know, to, to reduce it down? But how do you balance purpose with profit? So that you can keep having the impact that you want? Yeah. And I

Gautam Shah 33:47

wonder if it’s even about balancing purpose and profit, you know, as a, as a startup, you’re not even thinking about profit, you’re just thinking about staying alive to the next day and getting getting this project out there you can do so that you can do the next one. And at least for us, it’s like, yeah, profit, like, at some point down, you know, at some point down the line, we’ll you know, we’ll get there. But, you know, it’s just like, how do we just how do we survive off? Yeah, how do we survive? Yeah, and it’s really just as a survival instinct. And so then it becomes a lot more like, as an entrepreneur and as somebody you know, is how do you imbalance the anxiety that you have about dedicating your life towards something and I think when you I’ve been thinking about this is like, if you and it might sound a little bit arrogant, but if you choose to have a purpose driven life, you know, however you want it to find that are you at risk of never being satisfied because that purpose is never going to be achieved? Right, because it like, it can’t imagine the purpose of you would ever just get to a point like yep, we did. We did it out. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like with a for profit business there, there’s this metric, you’d be like, Yeah, I made a ton of money, I sold the company, it went bankrupt, you know, whatever it happened to be, but there’s something a little bit more concrete about your ability to measure whether you you did it or not, are they getting enough, I’m gonna go switch to another company, or we’re starting, you know, starting another business. But when you’re thinking about, you know, again, with, with impact, and what you’re trying to solve for, like, the balance is knowing that you’re never going to solve it. Right, with still going forward and accepting the small wins, you know, small wins along the way. And how long can you you know, how long can you you know, how long can you keep that up? And that, I haven’t figured that out? Yeah, and I have to take breaks, I have to take breaks sometimes, like sometimes, like, if, for me, personally, if I had like three or four, failed partnership conversations or investment conversations that you know, that don’t go my way, I need to take, I need to take a break. Like, I’m not the type of guy that can just pick myself up and have the fifth one. Where is it really, there’s plenty of people that it just rolls off of them. And they you know, and they just do it, and I’m not I need to take these breaks and be like, alright, just consult, make some money, help help out where you can, and then you know, and then you know, and then pick it up,

Maria Ross 36:20

that’s super healthy. I mean, that’s like what I talk about in the new book that’s coming out in the fall, the empathy dilemma is how you balance people, personal boundaries, and performance. And that’s actually signed, it’s very healthy, because the first two pillars of the five pillars in that book are self awareness and self care. Because otherwise you will burn out. And it won’t be sustainable if you can’t do the rest and recharge cycle within the work that you’re trying to do. So that’s actually very healthy, that you know that about yourself. And you’re saying, Okay, if I want to do this work for the long haul, I am going to need to take a break at this point, and sort of like switch gears for a little bit and work on this. And that’s what’s going to help me continue to have impact and continue to keep things sustainable. What isn’t sustainable is burning yourself down to the ground, and then you’re of no use to anyone. Right. And I just want to I don’t know, think you meant you mentioned a really interesting thing about the purpose. Because in my brand work, when I’m working with clients, we talk about the difference between vision, mission and values. And vision, I, I challenge my clients to think of a vision, that is a world that would make their organization obsolete. That is the end goal, right? That’s kind of what you’re talking about. That’s never gonna happen. Yeah, the mission is the steps and the actions that I take every day in pursuit of that vision. Yeah, it’s the mission that actually keeps you going. Because you’re probably unfortunately, never gonna get to the vision. Right. So that’s kind of life kind of feel like mission and purpose are the same things. But vision is that larger, like, this is what we’re doing all this for. And we may never get there. But it’s about it’s about the impact that we are having, and the progress that we are making. Yeah,

Gautam Shah 38:09

I think yeah, I think that that’s, I think that that’s right, we were we talk a lot about North Stars, or I, you know, I think a lot about North I think about our North Star. And I think about a rocket ship and I think about a flight path. And I know that my I know that my Northstar has never changed. But I know that my rocket ship and my flight path, you know, we still haven’t, we still haven’t figured out what’s the we kind of know what the rocket ship is. But the flight path is kind of the hardest part, but even the rocket ship. Right?

Maria Ross 38:36

Well, that’s about agility and resilience. So that’s a good thing, right?

Gautam Shah 38:42

So I think I think you’re right, I just want to say like, I do feel like, okay, to self care, I happen to have the luxury to be able to do that. And in order to have that luxury, I had to make some very tough decisions, because I had a team of six people, and you can’t have a team of six people and then just be like, Hey, guys, you know what, I’m just going to take a break for a while. Yeah. And that sort of means no projects are going to come in. So you know, find something else. Like you can’t, you can’t do that. So I had to actually, at some point, make a really difficult decision and say, Are we actually going to we’re going to take the we’re going to bring the company down to just me until you know, I’m in a position to you know, to bring it up and yeah, I think in the self

Maria Ross 39:27

care is that drastic. I’m not saying that it’s more like self care is understanding what recharges you as well and being able to, but not all self care is that drastic of like, I’m going to take care of myself by shutting down the company and laying everybody off. In a

Gautam Shah 39:41

way I had to not necessarily take care of myself but even just take care of like this company just needs the opportunity to reinvent itself. Yes. And now because it’s just me for a little while. Yeah, I have some I have some luxuries about taking care of myself. Otherwise I’m not gonna I’m not going to be able to rebuild it. Very

Maria Ross 39:58

true. Well Thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing your work. It’s amazing, soft spot in my heart for social entrepreneurs that are pursuing building a company, but also trying to do good in the world at the same time. So I love what you’re doing. We’re going to have all your links in the show notes go down, but for folks that are on the go or exercising along with their snow leopard, where is a place that they can find out more about you or the work? Yeah,

Gautam Shah 40:26

I think the best place is to go to the website. So it’s web. It’s Internet of elephants.com. Perfect.

Maria Ross 40:32

All right, and thank you so much. It was great reconnecting with you.

Gautam Shah 40:35

Thanks so much, Marie. I

Maria Ross 40:36

appreciate it. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard you know what to do, rate, review and share with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, please remember that kashflow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

May Hot Take: Why is Self-Care Core to Empathetic Leadership?

Self-care is more than just manis, pedis, and massages. It is vital to helping leaders embrace empathy while also making tough business decisions, holding people accountable, and setting high-performance standards. It matters because depleted leaders are ineffective leaders.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Empathy requires fertile soil to take root. If you’re stuck in self-preservation and not feeding your own soil, you won’t be able to meet others with curiosity and empathy.
Use pillar one, Self-Awareness, to start taking better care of yourself so you have a greater capacity to look outward.
Check out more about the book at TheEmpathyDilemma.com.

“It can be tempting to shoulder additional burdens in the name of empathy, but, in the end, you are doing yourself and your team a disservice.”

— Maria Ross

Episode References:

Enjoy special pre-sale and launch bonuses: http://theempathydilemma.com/book-offers
Check out more about the book here: www.TheEmpathyDilemma.com
Sign up for the FREE Masterclass: The 4 Step Framework to Craft a Captivating Brand Story that Attracts Your Right-Fit Clients: https://bit.ly/4StepBrandStory
April Hot Take: Why Empathy Starts with Self-Awareness: https://red-slice.com/the-empathy-edge/april-hot-take-why-empathy-starts-with-self-awareness

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the May 2020 for hot take episode, your solo episode of the empathy edge podcast. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m very excited to be here today to talk to you about pillar number two to effective empathetic leadership. If you heard last month’s hot take, which I will put a link to in the show notes. I have started to introduce my five pillars that are coming out in my new book The Empathy dilemma, how successful leaders balanced performance people and personal boundaries. That book is coming out in September. And I’m giving you a sneak peek in these hot take episodes of each of the five pillars to shore up to be an effective and empathetic leader. This book is the guide to help leaders balance the needs of the business with the demands of their people without burning out or sacrificing performance. And I know that that sounds good to many of you who are loyal listeners of the podcast, I did quickly want to mention that we have a special presale going on if you go to bit.ly/te D that’s Ted special presale, all one word, you can get one to 99 copies from now until August 27 and get 30% off. So I will put that link in the show notes. But I want to get straight to pillar number two and giving you a preview of what that one is all about. Obviously in the book, we go into much more detail. I have interviews I have examples. I have actionable tactics and strategies. And I’m just going to give you the high level summary here in this podcast episode. Let’s talk a little bit about self care, because it’s very misunderstood. It is more than just Manny’s Petty’s and massages. It is vital to helping leaders embrace, embrace both empathy, while also making tough business decisions, holding people accountable and setting high performance standards. Both and self care is the second as I mentioned, of the five pillars in my new book, The Empathy dilemma. It’s coming September 10. So before I go into this particular pillar, I just want to explain to you what the five pillars are that made it into the new book. These are common traits and behaviors seen over and over again in the successful empathetic leaders that I interview on this show that I speak to in audiences and training sessions, and that I advise even those who are truly empathetic but don’t label themselves as such. These five pillars are a result of hundreds of interviews, research and data and are common threads across all those who are empathetic and high performing. They’re doing it they’re making it happen. So let’s dig into the second pillar, self care. What is it exactly? Taking care of yourself means enforcing strong boundaries, taking time to recharge, delegating, resting and stewarding one’s own mental health as a leader. It matters because depleted leaders are ineffective leaders. And it can be tempting to shoulder additional burdens in the name of empathy. But in the end, you’re doing yourself and your team a disservice. True Empathy means treating yourself as well as you should your employees. It means getting your own house in order so you have the capacity to meet other perspectives with curiosity, not defensiveness or fear. When you’re running with little in your tank, you know how you get short tempered, frustrated, impatient, maybe a little hangry. And none of that provides fertile soil for empathy to take root. You’re too stuck in self preservation mode to see anyone else’s point of view or actively listen and support them. everyone’s opinion is annoying. Everyone needs to just leave you alone and do their work. Not the best environment for making sound and collaborative decisions that move the business forward. Decades ago I had a manager who was constantly stressed to the point that she isolated herself in her office. Every time I tried to talk about work we needed to do or strategic decisions we had to make. She would sigh with a pained expression on her face like I was interrupting her. Even when I had to report progress or needed direction or had ideas to make our work better. were offered even today. take something off her plate. She didn’t seem to know how to collaborate or delegate. I know she was very skilled at the work but who knows what was going on in her personal life. I mean, it’s very likely also that I just rubbed her the wrong way. But she did this with everyone. She ended up burning out at that job and abruptly leaving with all of us holding the back. It was clear she put everything else before her own needs. But she also didn’t take a break, create connections, which is part of taking care of yourself, or set boundaries with our unreasonably demanding CEO, all of which are part of self care, and it showed up and making her whole team miserable. Based on the first pillar self awareness, you now know what you best need to operate at full capacity. use that information to start taking better care of yourself so you have the capacity to look outward, and be there for your team. So how do you get better at self care? There are a few high level strategies. Honor who you are, seek support and advice and recharge and renew. Now to better understand these deceptively simple strategies in detail, please check out the empathy dilemma. For stories from leaders and tactics to put these strategies into practice. These five pillars will transform how your team engages, or forms innovates and delivers for you and your customers. So don’t forget to enjoy the pre sale and launch bonuses. I will link to that in the show notes. And you can check out more about the book at the empathy dilemma.com I hope this was an enjoyable little sneak peek for you of pillar two. Stay tuned for pillar three next month, which is clarity. That’s a juicy one and so necessary to being an empathetic leader. Until next time, please remember that kashflow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Diana Cutaia: How Psychological Safety Boosts Performance in Sports – and at Work

What do psychological safety, your team’s performance, and sports coaching have in common? Today, you’re going to find out how belonging helps you innovate and perform beyond even what you thought possible.

Today, Diana Cutaia defines what we mean by “peace” and that it is more than just the absence of violence. She also breaks down psychological safety and how both of these concepts are related. We talk about why psychological safety is such a buzzword, and why some organizations are merely ticking a box and do not truly understand how creating an environment of belonging unleashes potential. We discuss how a leader’s individual behavior is important, but how to go further and address the environment as a whole. Diana shares a few fascinating epiphanies some clients have had when finally understanding what belonging really means. How to create a culture of psychological safety, and how it impacts performance and risk-taking.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Creating a better environment doesn’t happen accidentally. You have to remove the bad and intentionally replace it with something good.
Move away from trying to make people “feel” like they belong. We just want people to belong. This is a shift in language we can begin to make today.
Command and control leadership is not effective in every situation. If your goal is to help people develop new skills, you’ve got to find a way to reach people and create an environment in which they can learn.

“Psychological safety is not just this idea of the absence of harm, but it is the repair of harm and then the repair of systems that perpetuated that harm.”

— Diana Cutaia

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge podcast on psychological safety:
Minette Norman: Psychological Safety
Susan Hunt Stevens: The ROI Of Psychological Safety
Red Slice blog: What does psychological abuse at work look like?

About Diana Cutaia, President & Founder, Coaching Peace

Diana Cutaia founded Coaching Peace in 2012, but the work started for her 20 years earlier. Today her clients range from school districts to national organizations to global companies. The focus of Coaching Peace is to create positive and safe cultures that empower its members to lead with empathy and understanding.

Connect with Diana:

Coaching Peace: https://coachingpeace.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianacutaia/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CoachingPeaceConsultingLlc/

Instagram: https://instagram.com/coachingpeacelive

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Diana Cutaia 02:17

Thank you, Maria. Appreciate it. I’m excited to be here as well.

Maria Ross 02:20

I mean, we’ve been talking before recording started about being Italians, being from New York, being from Queens, oh my gosh, so many things in common. And, of course, trying to help the world be a more empathetic and compassionate and human centered place. So very excited to

Diana Cutaia 02:35

present. Yeah.

Maria Ross 02:37

So before we kick off, let’s talk a little bit about your story. How did you even get into this work? Tell us a little bit about coaching piece? And what are your goals with the work that you’re doing?

Diana Cutaia 02:49

That’s like, you’re like did you do that one minute. Go in there around it. But, you know, I started coaching piece because I saw the fact that the ways in which we were coaching, in particular sport at the time, were not we were directed around peace. And when I first started coaching peace, I thought that peace was just the absence of violence, whether that violence was structural, cultural, direct, whatever it might be, I thought, oh, peace is the opposite of war, right? Peace is when there’s no violence, there’s peace. And what what I found in the work that we’ve done is that peace is actually yes, it’s the absolute absence of violence, but it is also the presence of empathy. It is also the presence of unconditional safety, the presence of of belonging, right, that there have to be things that are there that actually create that peace, and that there are ways in which we can coach that. And when I started this business, you know, 12 years ago, I thought because I came from an athletic background, I was an athletic director, I taught at a college, around sport based youth development. We were training coaches all around the country to look at sport differently. I thought, oh, that’s all I’m going to do. I’m going to stay directed in this very, you know, kind of little niche around sport niche around sport. And I realized that many of the work that we did could apply to any group, any group that when you’re thinking about it, it might be you know, the outcomes might be different or working toward is different, but really, people are people, and how do we create environments where people are truly feeling like they are in a place of peace, and what that looks like and peace not being the absence of conflict, because conflict isn’t necessary and important at times. But it’s how we create that, that state of peace.

Maria Ross 04:48

Well, there’s so many parallels between I’ve had several sports psychologists, I cite Steve Kerr in my forthcoming book, the empathy of dilemma, because there’s so many parallels because when Ever you’re trying to get a group of people motivated to accomplish a common mission? That could be sport. That could be work. That could be a nonprofit that could be your parent teacher group, at your school, whatever it is. It’s about like a group dynamic. And how do you interact with each other and communicate with each other in a way that’s productive, and in a way that people can show up and be who they are and bring their contributions. So there’s lots of parallels. Yeah, I

Diana Cutaia 05:26

love totally 100%. Okay, so

Maria Ross 05:28

I know that with your work, especially you talk a lot about psychological safety. And we’ve done a few episodes on that. I’ll link to that in the show notes. But why do you think that’s such a big buzzword right now? And And in your opinion, who is doing it well? And who is pretending? And how do we even tell?

Diana Cutaia 05:46

Oh, gosh, you’re telling secrets here today? Oh, we

Maria Ross 05:49

are we’re spilling the tea,

Diana Cutaia 05:50

it lets them as the Gen Z or say, or say we’re giving main character energy today. Um, so I think that, you know, when we talk about psychological safety, we talk about any safety around, you know, an environment, we often think about safety in the sense of like, am I going to be hurt or harmed in some way. And as much as we’d like to create spaces where people cannot be hurt or harmed in any way? Physically, right, that should be a priority. Even that happens, right? Where accidents, things happen, you know, around that, that state of psychological safety, right? Will I feel like we talk about like, will my dignity be valued, respect, honored? My very, that, you know, very nature of me who I am? Will I be in a space where I feel like I can voice my opinions where I can say things, we often think in absolutes. And what I mean by that is this very binary, you either create an environment of psychological safety or you don’t, right. And that we think that psychological safety, physical safety, whatever it means, being means that there is the absence of harm, there is no harm that can be created here. It is not that there is always harm that will happen because we’re human beings, we’re flawed, we’re figuring out the world, right? There’s, there’s no perfection in that. psychological safety is not just this idea of the absence of harm, but it is the repair of harm. And then the repair of systems that perpetuated that harm. And those are the things that I think we need to begin to think about more, you know, we might say that, Oh, I, we did something and that really hurt your feelings, or that created an environment, we felt like, oh, I don’t think I can speak up. And I go private Lee to you. And I apologize around that. And we’ve repaired that in some ways. But the reason why I did that might be because the environment that I’m in contributes to the ways in which I respond and react. And I’m not willing to actually address that system. And that’s the thing that we have to begin to address. And it’s hard. But that’s the thing that we have to we have to address. So who’s doing well, who’s not doing? Well, I think everybody, to some extent trying in, you know, that environment, I think, when we don’t do it well is when we’re on willing to actually kind of turn the mirror and say, Wait a second, not only how did I contribute to this, but as a leader? How am I contributing to the conditions in which this happened? How am I contributing to the system and perpetuating the system that allowed this to be present and to happen? That I think is, is the thing that we are struggling to do? You know, we struggled to do, which is goes back to sport like, yeah, that we struggle to do with coaches, right? Coaches, why are managers not doing it? Because coaches also don’t do it? Either. We don’t walk into a locker room and say, You know what, gosh, I didn’t call that timeout when I should have today. And, uh, you know what, I really messed up on calling that play. Yeah, I shouldn’t. And you know, I’m not bringing the energy today, I really should have brought some more energy. We don’t do that. Because we have this ethic, that now I have to be the absolute leader. And that leader is flawless and makes no mistakes. And it doesn’t matter if I make a mistake, because I’m not going to call myself out on that. Because I lose power. And that’s the difference. That’s the thing that we want to change and make, right? There’s so

Maria Ross 09:36

much to unpack in what you just said. So first of all, I just want to point out your definition of peace and your definition of psychological safety are very similar in the fact that it’s not just the absence of something. It’s what are you replacing that with? Right? So a lot of companies talk about like, we don’t do this. We don’t we’re not racist. We’re not inequitable. We’re not this we’re but what are you what You replacing those negative actions with intentionally? What kind of environment? Are you trying to create that, that you’re hoping just doesn’t happen by happy accident? And related? It’s this idea that the individual behavior and repair is fine. It’s good, we should do that. But also, what is that environment that’s contributed to make that something that was that occurred to make that something that seemed acceptable in the moment at the time? And I don’t think we address that enough. And again, like I see so many parallels to racism and racial inequity, this idea of like, well, if I’m just nice to someone, then that solves it. Right? And no, there’s there’s a whole system around that there’s a whole environment around that, that we we can’t look away from. And so this idea of creating a psychologically safe environment is not just about what you do as an individual leader, or what you think you do one on one with people, it’s what kind of an environment are you creating for everyone else that’s swimming in that pool, so to speak,

Diana Cutaia 11:04

like, well, and it’s also like, when you bring up even racism, the idea of I say, I’m not racist, then if someone says you just engage in racist behavior, right, then I immediately am going to get defensive and be like, but I’m not racist. And the fact is, is that it’s this finality right like this, this one thing that then puts up this barrier, as opposed to saying, I am actively working to be anti racist. And someone says, You’ve just engaged in racist behavior, or what you just said, is perpetuating racism. I can say, oh, I need to correct that. What education do I need to do for myself? What repair do I need to do in this space? What do I need to learn to understand what that is, there is a reciprocal engagement that happens, where I’m this series of kind of learning that to be honest, that the generation coming up right now wants that they’re the generation is pushing us to do that. Yep. And, you know, we have to, we have to do that in some ways. And we also have to do it because the right thing to do,

Maria Ross 12:12

it’s exactly, well, I mean,

Diana Cutaia 12:14

you make the business case for this, and I’m like, No, I’m not gonna make the business case of being a good human now,

Maria Ross 12:18

right? Well, to be fair, though, that’s exactly what I did with my book. And what I do with this podcast, and what I did with my TEDx talk, is I was trying to get to the skeptics, because I felt like the moral imperatives weren’t working. So it’s like, okay, if we’ve got to talk about what’s in it for you to get you to transformation, because then once you’re empathetic, and once you are creating that environment, you can’t unsee that. So if I can, if I can get people to get there, through whatever, you know, whatever means necessary. That’s kind of the work that we do. And so that’s why there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of data, there’s a lot of research, there’s a lot of case studies out there, showing the quote, unquote, ROI. I even have, you know, a keynote talk called the ROI of empathy, just to help people understand that, yes, this is, this is good for society, but it’s actually also good for your business. And if that’s how I need to get you in the room to have the conversation, I know you’re going to be transformed from the outside. And because I’ve seen it happen. Right. So I think that’s a lot of this work is, is getting people to understand that and I’d love to hear from you with your clients. You know, what are what are the the issues they’re coming to you with? And sort of what is the before that they’re dealing with? And then what is the after that they seek? Yeah,

Diana Cutaia 13:35

that’s a great question. I think the before is, sometimes folks come to check a box. We’re supposed to do this work. We’re supposed to care about people. So, you know, heard one, right?

Maria Ross 13:51

I’ve heard this is a new thing. Her Gen Z loves this. So yeah, we’re trying to hire more younger people. We

Diana Cutaia 13:56

don’t care. But yeah, exactly. And I think like that, so sometimes they for that, and they say like, Hey, we’re, you know, we’ve got to do this stuff to make people feel like they belong. I think our goal is,

Maria Ross 14:13

can I just stop you for a second? I love that phrase to make people feel like they belong, rather than to help them belong. I love I love that different just,

Diana Cutaia 14:22

that’s yeah, that’s been that’s my biggest thing. We, I constantly say that, like, we have to stop saying, make people feel like they belong. Because we just want people to be belong. Just yeah. Have people belong? Yeah. Right. And, and it’s not like it’s so easy. Like just, you know, like, yeah, we’re a diverse group of people on a planet who have different experiences, different values, different ways of being like, I’m not telling folks like, it’s so easy to blend humanity In a way, yeah, it’s also not so hard. Right? There are ways to do that. And if you say like, wow, I kind of felt like I belong there a little bit, I feel like I belong. Yeah, I guess, you know, in that space instead of I belong, yeah. Right. Like, oh, I really belong in this place, you know, and what makes me feel like I belong in this place. Yeah. Which is so important. So thank you for that, like the call out on it. Because it’s so absolutely important that we shift that language.

Maria Ross 15:31

And I love that that because that’s a shift you can make the minute they come to you of like, this is what we think we want our outcome to be. And it’s like, is it I don’t think that’s, you don’t want to make them feel like it like you’re like, you’ve put this spell over them that makes them feel like everything’s okay when it’s not, but you actually want to make them belong, and help them belong? You know,

Diana Cutaia 15:50

it’s it, I’ll give you a story that I think is really important. There’s a about almost 20 years ago, now, we use juggling, like actual juggling as a way of like teaching a whole host of variety of skills. And about 20 years ago, I was doing a workshop and someone walked into workshop with a limb difference. So they had only one accessible hand that they could use in the struggling. And I made adjustments during the workshop in order to make sure that they were there. But it was clear that I was making adjustments in order to do that. And it was at that moment that I felt like, I’m never going to do that again. I’m never going to not know who’s coming in the room. And I met my wife 10 years ago, and she had said something around like belonging is this place where people don’t feel welcome. They feel like you were waiting for them. And that’s the moment that like, I was like, that’s it. So I’ll never know exactly who’s going to walk into a room all the time. So I need to make sure that I’m always planning, and I’m creating an environment that no matter who walks in that room, they know they belong in that room. So sometimes in our workshops, we will ask, does anyone you know have any physical limitations, anything, even just some like auditory or sensory things? Like, we want to make sure that we are as prepared as possible for the folks that are walking into the room. But then I’m also just educating myself all the time to make sure like, how do I do this? You know, how do I create an environment where no matter who’s there, you know, you belong there. And I was waiting for you. I knew you were coming.

Maria Ross 17:39

I love this because I and if if I have to correct myself, I will in the intro, but I believe it’s manette Norman, who has been on the show, she wrote the book, The boldly inclusive leader, and she talks about treating it like you’re hosting a dinner party. If you had an event where you were hosting a dinner party, you would be thinking about what dietary restrictions do some people have write? Who should sit next to each other? And who shouldn’t? How can I make the room smell better? How can I make it more inviting? How can I arrange seating, you think of all these things before you have an event, or you throw a dinner party and she talks about inclusivity? In the same way it’s being proactive about understanding who’s in the room. So to your end, you just raised it so eloquently. So you feel like they were waiting for you. And it’s not a commendation. It’s not coddling, it’s just enabling people to feel safe and feel like they belong. So that yeah, so they can do their best work. So they can innovate so they can collaborate so they can perform in the way that you want your team to perform. And so I would love like, kind of related to that, with your clients and with your work. What have you seen people? What are the big epiphanies they have when they realize the link between psychological safety and performance? Can you give us any examples?

Diana Cutaia 18:57

I think the biggest links necessarily that folks see between like, creating an environment where people know they belong, is they see more innovation and risk taking, that folks are less afraid of failing, less afraid of making a mistake. They’re more willing to kind of say like, let’s try it. Let’s see what happens. And in that space, then folks are like, oh, like, we didn’t even know what our potential was. Until we actually started to step outside of the things like we have a lot of very high performing groups that have this kind of like, almost they hold themselves back in some ways, but because they’re high performing, in the sense that they’re bringing in a ton of revenue or making you know the impact that they want to make. They believe that like they’ve kept their potential. They’re like, we’re where we need to be the Okay. And then you give them you the open of the space where now people feel like I can take a little bit more risks, I could challenge you on things. And now you see that aperture widened so much and the potential, not just like, grow up, but grow horizontally because you’re allowing other folks and other voices to be heard. And acknowledged in that way. And they’re like, Oh, I didn’t even know. Right, you know, it’s tightening. I

Maria Ross 20:31

don’t even know that that was an outcome I could get, right, like

Diana Cutaia 20:34

a Friday after we get there. But you’re like, No, you can get there. Because we didn’t set where the finish line was. Right? You were moving it all the time and figure figuring it out. And that by you moving it, you’re like, you know what, we got 100 yards today, can we go to 1/3? In the same amount of time? Like, yeah, let’s see, I don’t know. And if we can’t, then we pull it back, we figure out what we can do differently. But that gives them the ability to truly be innovative.

Maria Ross 21:07

That’s just fun. I have so many more questions for you. But I know we’re gonna run out of time. So can you talk to me about maybe what’s one of your favorite projects you’ve worked on, or clients you’ve worked on where you saw, like, a marked impact and a marked difference from them coming to you, maybe they came to, you know, you know, we talked earlier about sometimes they come to you to tick a box, sometimes they are coming to you because they want to do the right thing, or they want to change your leadership paradigm, or they want to create that culture that everybody wants to work for. But what has been one of your favorites that you can recall, or even favorite moments, where you’ve seen again, that that that impact of understanding what psychological safety can do for your, for your organization, and for your team? Yeah,

Diana Cutaia 21:52

it was a great example of a we were training some football coaches one time and this was going back, it’s my most favorite story, because it’s the most impact. And we were actually using juggling as a way to kind of teach to teach folks how hard it is to learn, right, and the just the mental gymnastics and emotional things that we go through, when we’re learning something new. And a bunch of other things around motivation, stuff like that. I had this one football coach, who in my best Boston accent was said, I’ve been coaching for 45 years. And you know, in the middle of like, we only got to like two tennis balls, we’re juggling, she gets so upset, and he kind of throws both tennis balls down. And he’s like, I’m required to be here. So I’m gonna stay. But this is, you know, expletive, expletive. And I’m not doing this. Yeah. And I said, Okay. And I was very nice. I was like, Do you want a bottle of water, like, you can just sit here, like, do whatever you want, like I wasn’t, you know, I didn’t want to shame him. I didn’t want to call him out in any way. Like, that’s fine. Um, then he was like, at times, he was kind of picking on the other coaches, like, you know, Jimmy, you can’t do this, like, look at you, you know, whatever. And I was like, I totally appreciate the fact that you’re not, you don’t want to participate, I just ask that you don’t interrupt the experience of other people, you know, and in the back of my mind, I’m like, Oh, you’re just playing into exactly what I want you to play into. But that’s where I was, like, letting go through. And at the end, we’re debriefing the activity and one of the other coaches, and he’s sitting there cross armed, and he’s not paying attention, you know, around and one of the other coaches was like, you know, I was really surprised at how hard that was, you know, given the fact that I’m an athlete, and I really like, it was going through my mind, like, what, why am I having such a difficult time with this? And he’s like, I really wanted to be like, I don’t know what this is about. And I don’t know why I’m doing this. And you know, all that. And another coach, I had asked him, like, what do you do when you get when you got frustrated? You know, he’s like, honestly, I was saying nice things about you in my head. He’s like, I didn’t know what you know. And each coach started to talk about how challenging it was for them to learn and what they were doing. And the coach who had sat down and was, you know, really being disruptive. He raises his hand. And he’s like, well, crap, he’s like, I get it. He’s like, I, if you would have said to me, when we were doing this, Hey, I taught you how to do this. Do it, just get it done. He’s like, I would have responded even worse, he’s like, but I was in a place where I didn’t know the skills and I didn’t want to be embarrassed in front of, you know, I’m the one that has the most coaching experience here. He’s like, I didn’t want to be embarrassed. He’s like, so I act out the same way my kids act out. I was responding the exact same way. And I would have labeled that kid a problem. And I would have said you’re not coachable. And he’s like, and now I just realized that I just wasn’t creating, I don’t create all the time that conditions for them to learn. Because all I do is punish them when they don’t get it. He’s like a new are trying to work with me and trying to figure it out. He’s like, but you also just kind of let me like, take a moment and not be part of it. And that, to me is like the always the moment that gets me that always drives me to continue to do this work. Like he got it. We behave in ways sometimes that are even outside of what we want to because the conditions that we’re in, don’t make it safe for us to be anything else. Right? And it was a lesson for me to like, how do I create safety in a place where like your peers are watching you? And what do we do? And how do I create that? We make changes after that? around it. But that is the moment when you’re like, oh, somebody gets it, you know, we’ve had a lot of folks will do workshops around understanding the myth of the meritocracy. And how like, not everybody starts at the same place. Not everybody has the same access. And I’ve had several folks that come back and say, my mind is still blown about that I still I view the world completely differently now. And I’m telling all my other friends to view the world completely differently. So long answer to your question, but like, the often times, we don’t necessarily get to impact the system. We impact enough actors in the system, then it exponentially grows. And we feel like that’s that’s the movement that we’re trying to create. I

Maria Ross 26:53

love everything about that, because it’s this idea of, you know, what is a leaders role. And I, I’m talking, I talked about it in the empathy edge, I talked about it in my keynotes, I’m talking about it in the new book, that leadership has changed the old, simple command and control doesn’t work. For every situation, it’s it’s not going to be effective. And if your goal is to help people perform, if your goal is to help people develop new skills that will be useful to you and the team and the organization, you’ve got to find a way to reach people, you’ve got to find a way to help create the environment so that they can learn. So they want to learn so that they’re not scared to learn. And so that ultimately you get your goals met. And if we want to be really crass about it, it’s so you get your bonus at the end of the year, like I and you know, we talked about this too before about this idea of like, sometimes that moral imperative isn’t enough. But I’ve seen executives who do things for optics, and then they just love the response they get. They’re surprised by the response. They get there. They’re surprised by the lesson that they learn. And they want they want more of it. They’re like get me sorry that I love the way that felt. I love the way that what that resulted in. I love the way my team feels. I love the way that they’re engaged now. And so yeah, let me do more of this and see how it goes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love it so much. Okay, so we could talk for hours, but we’re short on time. So I’m going to put all your links in the show notes. Wonderful. But where’s the best place? If someone’s like exercising right now and listening to us? Where’s the best place they could find out more about you and your work?

Diana Cutaia 28:37

I mean, you know, definitely go to our website coaching piece.com Folks are always welcome to email me at Diana at coaching piece.com and get more information in any way they can.

Maria Ross 28:48

Awesome. Awesome. And can they connect with you on LinkedIn? 100% 100% Okay, I love LinkedIn. I always promote the etiquette. Make sure you send her a note that you heard her on this podcast. 100 personalize your invites. Diana, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure getting to know you and thank you for your friend to help us kind of deconstruct psychological safety a little bit.

Diana Cutaia 29:12

Absolutely. I’ve loved it. appreciate all the work you’re doing. Thanks.

Maria Ross 29:16

And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please share it, rate it, review it, share it with a colleague and friend. And until next time, please remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be calm. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your soup. power use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Andrea Butcher: Balancing Empathy, Accountability, and Vulnerability

The most popular question I get, by far, is how to balance empathy and accountability. often a false impression of empathy that makes us ask this question in the first place.

Today, I’m talking with Andrea Butcher, CEO of HRD, a Leadership Development Company. Andrea is a visionary—she knows how to lead organizations from big picture to execution. Today we talk about what emerging leaders are asking for in leadership development programs, which skills they want to strengthen, and what is vital to help all leaders in today’s landscape be successful. We discuss how the work of leadership is self-development, how empathy and accountability co-exist, and why clear communication is so vital because you can’t hold someone accountable to an expectation that was never set. She shares a lovely story about showing up as yourself, and another about how to respond to someone who has dropped the ball.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Every leader should have a coach. Everyone can benefit from having a safe place to struggle through challenges.
As humans, we connect through weakness and vulnerability. But it takes confidence to feel those emotions and show that vulnerability while still recognizing your worth.
Asking for feedback from trusted employees and advisors is a great path forward in becoming a better leader. It will do a lot to build trust and reinforce the relationship too.

“You can’t hold someone accountable for an expectation that has not been set. So much of the time it’s the lack of clarity that’s getting in the way.”

— Andrea Butcher

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge Podcast: Claude Silver: Leading With Heart At Vayner Media
The Empathy Edge Podcast: Anna Liotta: Understanding Generational Codes
Executive Coach Ed Batista article on empathy and accountability

About Andrea Butcher, CEO, HRD

Andrea is a visionary—she knows how to lead organizations from big picture to execution. She is a dynamic speaker, executive coach, and facilitator. As the CEO of HRD – A Leadership Development Company, she leads a national team of expert facilitators and coaches and drives the organization’s growth strategy. She also hosts a daily and weekly leadership podcast, Being [at Work] and is the author of The Power in the Pivot (Red Thread Publishing 2022) and HR Kit for Dummies (Wiley 2023). In 2020, she was recognized by the Indianapolis Women’s Journal as a Woman of Influence.

Andrea’s work spans organizations of all sizes and industries all over the world; she has experience in global HR positions, consulting, operations, and executive roles for private and public organizations.

Andrea is also the co-founder and President of Next Gen Talent, a program specifically designed to equip emerging HR leaders for success.

Connect with Andrea:

Website: https://hrdleadership.com/

Being [at Work] and Daily Dose: https://hrdleadership.com/podcasts/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leaderdevelopmentcoach/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrea.w.moore.3

Andrea’s speaking page: https://hrdleadership.com/andrea-butcher-speaker/

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Andrea Butcher 02:42

Oh, my gosh, all of my very favorite things to talk about. This is going to be fun.

Maria Ross 02:48

This is awesome. And we should mention that you also have a podcast that we will want folks to check out. So tell us a little bit about that as being at work. Yeah.

Andrea Butcher 02:57

It’s the leadership podcast. So I’ve been in the leadership development executive coaching space for a long, long time and really wanted a forum to capture stories. So I asked every guest, tell me about a pivotal moment that taught you a lot about yourself and your leadership. And now six years later, what I have found is every single story becomes this really great leadership lesson. But that’s how we package it. So the show is being at work, as you said, yeah, check it out. I also do every single day, which is not for the faint of heart every single day, I do a daily dose of leadership. So there is a lot of content within that feed. I love

Maria Ross 03:34

it. And we’ll put a link in the show notes for that. But I’m gonna take a step back and find out your story as I do with every guest. How did you get to this work? And what are you so passionate about within this

Andrea Butcher 03:45

one it funny when you look back and see how all the dots connected and all those things that you wanted to work out not working out such blessings in disguise. And I have a daughter who’s a senior in college right now. And she’s so driven and so focused and conscientious and so she feels like she has to have her thing. And I just keep laughing? No.

Maria Ross 04:08

I never had something I constantly was like opportunity to opportunity. Like Thank God, I live in the era we live in that I didn’t have to pick a career and do it till I retired. I

Andrea Butcher 04:18

know exactly. Well, who knows what they’re doing ever. It’s like every day is a new adventure. So I feel so fortunate Maria to get to do the work that I do. That’s very much the attitude I have around it, it is a blessing. So as I look back on my career I in college I have with a psychology major, I’ve always been fascinated by why people do what they do. And so, psychology 101 blew my mind. Oh my gosh, I my parents were school teachers. So I don’t have a business background. And I didn’t know the business world or corporate or but you know, now that I see my I saw my parents leading in a school setting and actually grew up in a really small community. So I had an idea As a teacher, and wow, like, I can see from like my early years, I see those roots of people and development and potential and curiosity around what makes someone tick and what motivates someone. And so I was the psych major. And my plan was to get a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Well, it’s really competitive into those programs. So I had a professor that said, Andrea, you know, the other little nugget from this is listening to those voices, those like random voices that I had this random professor that said to me, you really liked your industrial organizational psychology class, have you thought about human resources? What’s that, like? That sounds awful. I was at I was in Indiana State at the time in Indiana State has a master’s in human resource development. He’s like, well just just go and talk to them and check it out. And so because I had no idea what I was going to do, I went and had a conversation. And the next thing I knew, there was a graduate assistantship program. And so I applied, I got it. So I was so fortunate to have my masters paid for and got a master’s in human resource development, which really taught me a lot about organizational leadership, organizational effectiveness, org development, and I fell in love with it, like, wow, this is about, like helping people be the best version of themselves in the workplace. And so that really set me on a course I when I entered the job force then like, right, the workforce right after my master’s, it was wide open, and I had lots of opportunities. The master’s degree in HR is very different than it was today. And I took a role with a company called premier for now in Chicago, because in the interview process, the hiring manager asked me, well, you know, we’re based in London, so would you be okay, with international travel? Like, are you kidding? 23 years old, I’m single, yeah, of course, that would be okay with international travel. And so I did. So for the first eight years of my career, I did globe, I did global HR for this electronics distribution company. And the company was growing and expanding. And we had really progressive leadership investing in leaders all over the world. And so I got exposed to and certified in so many programs disc and MBTI, and DTI and career ladders and change leadership. And I mean, you name it. I mean, that’s just off the top of my head, like for really foundational tools and assessments. And I had an incredible mentor who put me in opportunities that were my experience level I should never have had, but he saw the potential and the enthusiasm in me. And it’s really set me up then to be able to consult. So I went from that internal role then to leadership development consulting, and for the next than 10 years really did that at an executive level, got an executive coaching certification and just honed that craft. I went back into corporate in 2014, I had an opportunity to lead HR and talent for a large security business. And I was doing all this executive coaching as a consultant, but felt a lot of impostor thought because I had never led at that level. And it was, it was really interesting. It was a tough culture, it was very male dominated. I had a leader who espouse a set of values that he didn’t live. So I learned a lot of lessons going through a lot of adversity. But I’m grateful for that time. Yeah, because it then set me up to in 20 2017, I joined HRD, as the President of the business and have had just so much fun. Maria, over the last seven years growing that business, we, within our first two years, because of the focus on leadership development, we doubled revenue, and then from 2019 to 2023, we doubled revenue again. So clearly, there are some things that are working in our business and to be able now today, to lead an organization doing work that I’m so passionate about is such a gift.

Maria Ross 09:21

That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And I love you know, you have to have those negative experiences to to see what not to do. You got to learn what what kind of leader you don’t want to be, or what kind of culture you don’t want to create. Yeah, because otherwise it’s always valuable. Yeah, it’s just as valuable Of course. So,

Andrea Butcher 09:37

so much of the time we we we turn like, oh, no, this is bad. This is no it’s contrast telling you reminding you of your values and what’s important to you. I

Maria Ross 09:47

love it. I love it. So what do you see as vital or missing in leadership development today? What what are the skills or the gaps that folks have? have to be the most effective leader they can be to ultimately drive the organization’s success forward.

Andrea Butcher 10:05

Yeah, from my perspective, it continues to be the human skills. We have come such a long way. I mean, the work that Brene Brown and Simon Sinek and Adam Grant are doing, are really pushing the envelope, but I am just my mind is boggled by the organizations that still don’t get it are still ego and greed driven. And, and so yeah, I mean, I, I have such an abundant mindset, there’s the you know, the work that I do, 20 years ago, leadership development didn’t get nearly the press, or there weren’t nearly as many experts doing that. Today, it’s a very different landscape. And I’m like, a big Hell yeah, for as many people doing the work as possible, because I think every leader needs a coach, just like every human needs a good therapist, I haven’t been leader could benefit from coaching and having a safe place to struggle through challenges. I mean, it’s because what’s interesting about if you think about the definition of leadership, you know, it’s to go to guide to travel, to taking a group of people, somewhere, mobilizing people to want to struggle for something that we share. That’s how I think about leadership. So it’s getting results through other people. But what happens so much is when you’ve got an ego driven leader that doesn’t really trust themselves, or even know themselves, they try to do everything on their own, right, they withhold, they don’t share openly, they aren’t vulnerable. And so it’s really hard then to connect or collaborate or, or engage others in that process. And so it’s, I am so passionate Maria, about giving leaders a place where they can let their guard down, because until they let their guard down and realize how good that actually feel, feels. And until they become more of who they really are, instead of trying to be something that they think someone else wants them to be, they’re not going to be what their team members need, or they’re not going to be that thing that creates connection.

Maria Ross 12:07

Well, and that’s such an interesting paradigm, because there is the desire and the need for leaders to show up as who they are. And to bring that to the table because they can’t be anyone else. And I spoke with Claude silver, who’s the Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia. And she talked about the fact that a lot of her role is about helping people be who they are as a leader, and not try to emulate anyone else, not even try to emulate Gary Vaynerchuk. And she says she talks to them about we hired you because of you. But that balance needs to be tempered with self awareness have got it. There’s also gaps you might have, there are strengths, there are gaps, there are emotional triggers. And you also need to know that about you, you can’t just blindly show up as who you are, in all its raw glory, because that might not be the best way to move everyone forward. So it’s a balance of digging deep, and figuring out who you are and what you’re good at and what you need to work on. And then being able to show up authentically, in that I think I think the biggest thing is not to pretend and not to put your head in the sand of like, I’m gonna pretend I have all the answers. And I’ve got this and I’m a perfect leader, when there is no such thing. Right? So what it what is your thought about balancing that authenticity with that continued desire to improve and grow and learn and understand where we might need to work on something

Andrea Butcher 13:39

that that is the work of leadership development, it is self development. And in order to be who you are, you have to know who you are. And doesn’t that ebb and flow and evolve. And, I mean, it’s why values work is so prevalent in leadership development, but even like, peeling back the layers, like I love to take leaders through a values exercise, but then like, I don’t really care what your values are, I want to know why that’s value. Yeah. And I want to know, like, how that shows up on your calendar and in your life and the values and action, right? It’s like it’s going a little bit deeper and, and then to your point around the weaknesses. It’s it’s beyond owning the weakness. You know, it’s it’s, like, connecting through your weakness and being willing to say, like, Hey, I’m really struggling here. Like, this is not something I have experienced it or this I have no idea what I’m doing right now. It’s, I mean, that is so freakin refreshing. When you hear somebody say that. Yeah. I tell this story a lot. And it resonates because of because of that, like connecting through our weakness. Several years ago, I put my daughter into a theater class that was eight weeks long and she was given a she’ll so Silverstein poem. Uh huh. called our orchestra. Oh, you You are a customer, she was the orchestra. And the idea was okay, we’re going to rehearse this, you’re going to show up every Saturday in practice with the instructor. And then at the end of the program, you’re going to present it in front of an audience. And so I mean, she was so excited about this and was always practicing, like, beating her belly as if it were her drum and playing her nose as if it were, our fleet was really cute, really cute poem. And she brought it to life in such a cool way. So I mean, I, I thought, this is going to be fun. This is like Mason’s moment to shine. She’s such a gregarious outgoing person, and kid. And so on the day of the performance, we got there early, we’re getting set up, I got a place in the front row with my little video camera like ready to capture this moment in action. And when she walked up on stage, I could tell immediately, like, Oh, my God, she has, like a horrific case of stage fright. It was like the blood had been drained from her body, she was pale white with all these red splotches, and she was shaking, visibly had to hit head to toe. And so I thought, okay, she’s going to run off the stage, she’s going to dig her head into my hip, and she’s going to sob, but put my video camera down. And, and she didn’t do that she did the entire performance. And it was really, really shaky. I mean, she beat her belly and play her little, her little nose like it was her flute. But it was, it was not a good performance. But she didn’t miss a line. Because I knew the poem. She got every single word. It was just really, really shaking. And what do you think, what do you think the audience did at the end of that performance?

Maria Ross 16:33

Well, of course they clapped. They probably gave her a standing ovation when they probably saw the fear. It

Andrea Butcher 16:38

was the only standing ovation of the day. And what I love about this during the reason I tell it so much is nobody was clapping for her because it was a good performance. Right? We were clapping before her because as you said, she was terrified and she did it anyways, yes, connect, we connect to our weakness. So any, anytime we’re vulnerable enough to put ourselves out there. I mean, it’s the reason we cheer for the underdog. And we love a good comeback story. You know, we there’s something really refreshing about that. And, but it takes confidence, right in who you are in a feeling of worthiness I’ve Yeah, I’ve been reading about and listening so much to so much about worthiness that it’s because it’s even in those moments, when I have no idea what I’m doing. And I’m awkward, and I’m messy, I’m still worthy. I know who I am, I know that I have gifts, I know that I belong. And so it keeps me in that if you don’t have that feeling of worthiness, it’s going to be hard to show up, right?

Maria Ross 17:36

Well, and that’s how you that’s how bullies show up. Because they, I often talk about the ability to make space in your brain, for empathy for being able to take on another person’s point of view without defensiveness or fear, that requires you to have your foundation strong, and you to feel worthy you to feel confident you to feel like well, at least I can figure this out. And I’m open to other points of view, because it’s the leaders that are not feeling confident the leaders that are insecure, the leaders that are leading from a place of fear, that are the ones that don’t want to tarnish the diverse thoughts and experiences of everyone in the organization. Because they have some skewed view of the fact that if I’m a leader, I’m the one that has to come up with all the good ideas myself, right? Or I can’t show weakness, I can’t show that I don’t, I can’t go to my team and say, Hey, I’m having a really hard time figuring this out. Let’s figure it out together. And that paradigm, I mean, you’re living it, that paradigm is changing. And I actually have a lot of empathy for those leaders who came up in a time when those weren’t the rules. And now all of a sudden, they’re being told, Oh, no, you need to talk about personal things at work. I mean, you don’t have to but, you know, like, became successful through a certain set of rules that they were taught. And now they’re like, someone changed the rules of the game on me. And I actually don’t know how to lead other people or mentor other people because I didn’t grow up in the system the same way. Yeah. And so that’s those are the ones I hope are investing in leadership development and being able to learn the new paradigm and be comfortable with the new paradigm of we’re trying to bring our humanity to work because you can’t park your humanity at the Office Store.

Andrea Butcher 19:19

Right in your humanity showing whether Yeah, I could or not showing anyway. Yeah, it and it’s interesting that you say that about you know, feeling some compassion, or for those who like the game has changed. But it’s interesting because I think that I think empathy and compassion are natural. I think a lot of these they’re in nature, human beings policies, right. And then we put in place, like the way in which we traditionally have exited people. That’s not natural, that feels like shit, which is why every HR person freakin hates letting people go. But if you do that with like, hey, this just isn’t the right fit for either of us and we can are about you. And so here’s what we’re gonna do to like make this process like, just so she can show some compassion and heart that process.

Maria Ross 20:07

Yeah, I often talk about my most empathetic boss, I’ve told this story a million times. So my listeners are probably groaning. But my most empathetic boss was someone who had to lay off the entire marketing team in advance of a merger. And he’s still my mentor to this day, I’ve actually quoted him in the new book coming in the fall the empathy dilemma, but it’s, it’s this both and philosophy that I’m trying to preach, and it sounds like you are to where you can be empathetic and high performing. You can make really tough business decisions. And you can do that with compassion. We’ve been we’ve been sold this bill of goods that it has to be either or,

Andrea Butcher 20:42

and actually, I think they go hand in hand. Yes, totally. Because care, like a relationship is not one or the other. A relationship is both. Yeah. And it’s almost like, of course, I’m going to hold you accountable for the things we agreed to. Because I care about you and our relationship, because I empathize with you, because I know you and who you are. So with that interesting, I don’t often get the it’s It boggles my mind. When leaders say things, like, well, but I don’t want to hold them accountable, because I’m worried about the relationship and like, yeah, not holding them accountable is way more damaging to the relationship. Yeah. Because you’re not following through on what you committed to or what you want. And

Maria Ross 21:29

you’re leaving them spinning. I mean, it’s sort of like a parent not giving a child boundaries. I mean, they you need some boundary, you need some structure, you need some boundaries. And so it doesn’t mean you people, please because that’s, that’s often that’s why I’m writing the next book is because folks are burning themselves out in the name of being an empathetic leader, but what they’re practicing is actually not empathy. It’s people pleasing. It’s exactly caving in its submission. And so being able to learn that skill of I can be strong in my decision, if I know I’ve made my decision based on my values, and I can communicate tough decisions to my team that they may not like nobody wants to get laid off, for example, but I can do it in a way where I can think through what might this person need right now? How can I support them? How can I communicate in a different way than just perfunctorily giving them the news over, you know, a 10 minute zoom call? Like, how can I do this in a way that is more human and maybe what they need is space to vent. And I can give them that without? I’m not going to change the business decision, the business decision has been made. And just because someone’s upset, I can’t go okay, you’re right. Forget the layoffs, we’re not doing them. Right. So I love that. And I want to segue into what you alluded to here, because that is the big thing leaders struggle with is how to balance empathy with accountability. So tell us your thought on that. You teased it a little bit? Yeah,

Andrea Butcher 22:58

I for me, like, I don’t think it’s the balance. I think it’s an and I think as a leader, you are empathic and you hold your team members accountable. I mean, it’s so empathy, you know, seeking to understand like, where someone is, like meeting them where they are, that doesn’t mean letting someone off the hook. We’ve gotten that confused in our head like I am, because because, again, this goes back to our definition of leadership, my role is to get results through my team. So we have goals and things that we commit to. And I care so much about them as humans. And so as I’m paying attention to things they’re struggling with, and things perhaps that they’re not doing, I’m going to communicate and I’m going to connect with them on that. I’m Why would I let them off the hook? We’ve made an agreement on right thing, they care about a shared perspective. And a lot of times it’s like, oh, yeah, like, I totally missed that. You’re right, or, Hey, just, you know, like, I’ve got a lot going on, and then that leads to it a bigger conversation around, how can we help you and support you? And what what do you need? Because we are a team?

Maria Ross 24:11

Yes. Yes, I love that. There is a leadership coach, executive coach, Ed Batista, who wrote a an article that I’ve quoted in the new book where he has this quadrant of empathy and accountability. And one of one of the things that the quadrant communicates is that accountability without empathy as a bootcamp, but empathy without accountability is a daycare. Okay? Like it’s just this idea of like, everyone can’t just do what they want to do. That’s not the purpose of the organization. That’s not the purpose of the workplace. And several of the leaders that I interviewed for the new book, talked about the fact that they’re very clear that their first goal is to support they’re hired in that role to meet the goals of the organization. They can’t lose sight of that. They can do that while taking care of their people love that. But what they always keep sight of at the end of the day, if a person is not performing, if a person is struggling, it’s my job to then make sure that the work gets done, I still have to figure out a way to get the work done. I still have to hold people accountable. It doesn’t mean I don’t care

Andrea Butcher 25:23

about them. Yeah, I have a team member recently that that dropped the ball on a few things. And, you know, so she reports to a leader within my business. And so the leader and I were having a conversation about like, what’s happening, and there’s like this pattern of behavior. And we care so much about her. And we know that there’s some, like fit question with the role that we’ve talked a lot about as an organization and with her about. And so we had an opportunity, another colleague had a little event at our house. And so I just asked, this team member is like, what would you ride with me? Because I just, I hadn’t had that one on one time, I didn’t feel like I was in a good position to call her up and be like, Hey, what’s going on? Yeah, I hadn’t done my part of under seeking to understand. So we had a car ride together. And we sang Taylor Swift songs. And we laughed together. And we connected and not surprising, she opened up a little bit and shared about some of the things that have been going on. And so and we have had conversations about following through on the things that we commit to clients about and the impact that that has. And so again, it’s an end, I love the grid that you highlight, I think

Maria Ross 26:33

it’s awesome. I’ll put a link to that article in the show notes. But well, it just highlights

Andrea Butcher 26:37

the and the MA and accountability. They are leadership skills, like they are their leadership skills. Mm hmm. And that are really important and supportive of each other.

Maria Ross 26:47

So you are the founder of next gen talent, and co founder and president a program specifically designed to equip emerging HR leaders for success. So you’re working with younger people? Yeah. And so I’m wondering, what are they asking to learn? What are you hearing from them? And is it different from what you heard maybe a decade ago, or 20 years ago? From leaders?

Andrea Butcher 27:12

Well, yes, it is fascinating. I mean, I learn, I learned so much from them. I mean, so they’re all two to five years in to their HR. So they’re, you know, they’re mostly late, mid to late 20s. And, well, first of all, just the way they engage with technology blows my mind, how they’re fearless around it, they the depth at which, so if they if I if we were to engage some of them in this conversation, Maria, it would almost be like, and, of course, you know, the language that they use and their experiences. I mean, they, they have grown up in a world, particularly over the last several years, where they’re immersed in it through social media every single day, the human centric skills. So it is an expectation that they have of their leaders. Yeah, they they want, they want that connection. They want relationship with their leaders. They want to be seen, right? I mean, they’re the people that we have in next in town. It’s an application process. So it’s driven, you know, growth oriented individuals naturally, but they but is it but it is a subset, you know, over the last six years, we’ve had 15 leaders each year. So now what 50 or so leaders have participated in the experience. And a theme that I have seen across all of the groups is how they want they want to add value. They want to be seen by their organizations, they so badly want to contribute and are just our our crave craving, that that connection with their organizations with their leaders. I love

Maria Ross 29:02

this. And I’m going to link in the show notes to another episode we did with Ana Liana, who’s a generational expert, she wrote a fantastic book about the differences in generations in the workplace, and where the communication conflicts happen. It’s called unlocking generational codes. And we had a great interview, where she talks about it’s not just the stereotypes you hear about different generations, it’s how different generations view the power of information, how they view technology, how they view leadership. And when you when the clash happens, because the two groups are not whatever groups we’re talking about whether we’re talking about Gen X and Boomers or Boomers and Gen Z or whomever the clash happens because there’s a lack of empathy and understanding of what makes that generation or people of that generation tick. And we can solve a lot of our communication problems and thus our leadership issues. If We have a better understanding of where people are coming from. Because you know, otherwise you get the oh, those younger people are so entitled, they just they want to be like Vice President tomorrow. And maybe they do. But there’s a very good reason that they approach work that way. And so you can still fulfill their needs without promoting them to Vice Pres. If and when I,

Andrea Butcher 30:19

those, those comments always kind of bugged me, because it’s like, I think the I don’t think that no, I that’s not been my experience. I mean, I think they want to add value. Yeah, want to contribute at the max. And so I often think, like, our Gen X brains are filtering that as well, they want my role or they want, yeah, no, I just think they want to they like their bad acids. So they like France.

Maria Ross 30:46

Yeah, it’s understanding that mindset. And yes, it’s not promoting them to CEO tomorrow, even though that might be what they’re communicating. But it’s finding those ways to give them those opportunities to contribute and make a difference and have an impact. And so that was really both the needs can be met in that scenario, if we understand where people are coming from. And so there’s also this, this concept that Claude silver talked about when she was on, which is that when it’s why clarity is a pillar in my next book about how to be an effective empathetic leader. It’s being really clear with people about what the expectations are, and not just the job description. But this is what we expect. This is how we expect people to treat each other on this team. This is how we expect people to step up when there’s a crisis, or there’s an issue. And just being crystal clear about that. She talked about the fact that being crystal clear about career paths, and values and expectations, eradicated a lot of the perceived and teittleman Because people want information, they want to know what to expect. And I’m curious what you think about that?

Andrea Butcher 31:56

Yeah, I totally aligned with that. Brene Brown says clarity is

Maria Ross 32:00

mind. Yes, absolutely. So as we Oh,

Andrea Butcher 32:04

God sets us up for it sets us up for accountability. I mean, you can’t hold someone accountable for an expectation that has not been set. And so much of the time, yeah, it’s the lack of clarity that’s getting in the way, versus accountability being the issue.

Maria Ross 32:19

I love that I want to repeat that you cannot hold someone accountable for an expectation that they haven’t been. Yet

Andrea Butcher 32:24

you haven’t set that you have a sense that, love it. Love it. Okay, so

Maria Ross 32:28

as we wrap up, what sort of a golden gem you have for leaders that are struggling with maybe their own personality of being able to connect with their teams or with other people? Maybe they think they have a blind spot in terms of like, I’m just not good at the people stuff. Yeah. What do you say to those leaders when you’re working with them? Yeah, I would encourage

Andrea Butcher 32:50

those leaders to identify like a couple of trusted advisors, people that you’ve worked with, that, you know, will tell you the truth and ask them for some feedback. With a lot of heart and a lot of sincerity. You know, it could sound something like, you know, I want I want to grow as a leader, I want to be better as a leader, like, you know, me, well, I trust you. Like, what have you seen that’s getting in my way? What can I do differently? It’s so simple. Yeah, but if these are people in your life, like asking them for feedback is going to do a lot to build trust to reinforce that relationship. But also, you’re gonna get some good, good insight.

Maria Ross 33:25

And it’s scary, it’s vulnerable to ask, because, you know, you actually want an honest answer. Right. But it’s like,

Andrea Butcher 33:30

you got to choose the right people, right, trusted advisors that you know, will tell you the truth.

Maria Ross 33:35

Yeah, yeah. Get them when they’re in a good mood to lay out a full night’s sleep. Well, Andrea, this has been such a great conversation. I’ll probably talk for another two hours, I’m sure. But all your links will be in the show notes. But for folks that are on the go exercising right now taking a walk, where’s the best place they can find out more about your work?

Andrea Butcher 33:55

Yeah, for certain LinkedIn, I put a ton of content out on LinkedIn, I’m very active there. So Andrea butcher, feel free to connect with me and, and I also I mean, I am one of those people. If you send me a direct message on LinkedIn, I will respond. I am a connector at heart and I love getting to know people. So I would love to hear what resonated so please connect with me there.

Maria Ross 34:16

I love it. And LinkedIn etiquette, if you do that, make sure you to send her a message that you heard her on the empathy edge podcast. Exactly. And we will also link to your podcast being at work, which is amazing. So we will put that resource in the show notes as well.

Andrea Butcher 34:31

Thank you, Maria, thank you so much for the work that you’re doing. I can’t wait to read your book and support you. And this is such important work that you’re doing. So I’m rooting for you. I’m lifting you up. And I’m so grateful for the impact that you’re having. Same.

Maria Ross 34:45

Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or a colleague. Until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually Lusa take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources, book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Robin Hills: Understanding the Intelligence of Emotions

When you think of emotional intelligence, there are still many leaders out there who falsely believe it has no place in business. Business is about logic, not emotions, right? Wrong. How can being aware of yourself and others not have a place in an environment where relationships are everything?

My guest today is Robin Hills. He defines emotional intelligence and its core components, the role motivation and empathy play, and why AI won’t take over anytime soon. He talks about resilience and shares strategies to manage stress and weather storms in the workplace. Finally, Robin shares a fascinating take on the Intelligence of Emotions and what useful information can be gathered when we learn to properly read emotions – both our own and those of others – so we can move forward and succeed.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Emotional intelligence is more than just the emotions themselves. But the emotions are what make us human. Leave the working without emotions to AI.
When humans communicate and empathize with each other, we change each other in the processes, modifying the neural pathways in the brain. That interaction cannot happen in the same way with a robot.
Emotional intelligence is always a work in progress. Whether you started studying it today or have been studying it for your entire life, there is always something more to learn.

“Emotions drive our thinking, emotions drive our decision making, emotions drive everything that we do. Without emotional intelligence, we really are going to be just like the robots.”

— Robin Hills

Episode References:

Free Newsletter: Ei-Matters.com
The Empathy Edge: Dr. Michelle Zhou: Empathic AI is Real and It’s Here – But We Need Everyone Involved!
The Empathy Edge: Miniter Dial: How to Embed More Heart Into AI

About Robin Hills, Director of Ei4Change, Business Psychologist, and Emotional Intelligence Trainer

Robin is the director of Ei4Change, a company specializing in educational training, coaching and personal development focused around emotional intelligence, positive psychology and neuroscience. He has taught over 400,000 people in 195+ countries how to build resilience,

and increase self-awareness and understanding of others.

Robin is the author of 2 books and has through his work developed the experiential coaching methodology Images of Resilience to support cathartic conversations around resilience. He has delivered keynote speeches at conferences across the world including at Harvard University and sits on the North West Committee of the Association of Business Psychology.

Connect with Robin Hills:

Ei4change: ei4change.com

X: twitter.com/Ei4Change

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinhills

Facebook: facebook.com/EI4Change

Instagram: instagram.com/ei4change

Robin’s Courses: courses.ei4change.info/collections

Download this free guide: Developing your Emotional Intelligence

courses.ei4change.info/courses/free-book

Book: The Authority Guide to Behaviour in Business: How to Inspire Others and Build Successful Relationships

Robin’s course on empathy: Understanding Empathy

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Robin Hills 02:48

it is a pleasure being here. And thank you for having me on the show.

Maria Ross 02:52

So let’s talk quickly, you’ve been doing this work for a long time your company has taught you have taught over 400,000 people across 195 plus countries, as we mentioned in your bio, and you’ve devoted your work to resilience and emotional intelligence, training and development. So just briefly, tell us a little bit about how you got into this work and what’s your passion for it?

Robin Hills 03:17

Well, my passion really is to see people develop, grow and reach their optimum performance. And when I started out my career back in the 80s, emotional intelligence was still being studied in the universities. Nobody had heard of it beyond the academic walls. And it wasn’t until the mid 90s, when Daniel Goleman published his books on emotional intelligence that he came into the public consciousness. And at the time, I thought, Well, this sounds really, really interesting. Then, to cut a really long story short, I went through a couple of redundancies and I set up vi for change, ei being emotional intelligence, the change 15 years ago, to concentrate on people development. And so everything then was underpinned by this construct that is emotional intelligence, whilst everybody else does training and various other aspects of CEO C suite development, leadership development, emotional intelligence underpins everything that we trade. So all I’m doing is she’s coming along and doing the training, the coaching and the facilitation, from a slightly different perspective. And hey, Maria, it works.

Maria Ross 04:39

Well tell us what’s that slightly different perspective?

Robin Hills 04:42

Well, the fact is that a lot of trainers will run an emotional intelligence module when they’re doing leadership training. I don’t because I just lead with emotional intelligence. So everything that we do on the leadership development, bro Abram is talking about emotional intelligence because it is so fundamental to us as human beings that you can’t kind of segregated separated out multi TARDIS. Oh, let’s have a look at emotions because emotions define us. emotions drive our thinking, emotions drive our decision making emotions drive everything that we do. And it underpins the the topic of your your podcast, which is empathy. So without emotional intelligence, we really are just going to be very much like the robots like the Daleks.

Maria Ross 05:41

Exactly. And that that is the thing of when you’re teaching people these new skills or bringing these new skills into their consciousness, there’s this desire to separate it out to border it to say that, Oh, this is this discrete thing that we’re going to study and learn. But it sounds like what you do is more integrated into leadership development, training through everything that you do, which is where I hope at some point, empathy comes to because I’m sure you’ve had these conversations to where it’s like, I mean, I, I do a really great empathy workshop. But one workshop is not going to transform your culture, it’s got to be embedded into the fabric of how people lead how people communicate, the policies that you have within the organization, how people treat each other, it’s got to be embedded in all of those things. And I’m often asked the question of what’s the difference between empathy and emotional intelligence? And I always talk about the fact that empathy is sort of just one rung of the ladder of emotional intelligence. Can you talk about that question and say, you know, in your mind and in your work, what is the definition of emotional intelligence? And what does it encompass?

Robin Hills 06:49

Well, let’s keep the definition of emotional intelligence, really simple. It’s the way in which you combine your thinking with your feelings, in order to make authentic decisions and build up quality relationships, to take action. So that is emotional intelligence. In a nutshell, it sounds so simple, but it is incredibly hard to do. Yes. How do you combine your thinking with your feelings in order to make quality decisions and build up sorry, authentic decisions, build up these quality relationships. So the components of emotional intelligence really, around awareness, awareness of SEL, and awareness of other people. So it is awareness itself, awareness, is having that understanding of what impact one has on the environment one’s working with and the impact that one has on other people. So it’s having this understanding around what emotions are coming up, but it’s also having this awareness of one’s strengths and limitations, what gets in the way, what works really well. And then the awareness of the outer world is an awareness of people. And that’s where empathy sits. So emotional intelligence has empathy as a core components, the next parts of emotional intelligence, or action and behavior. So it’s how you actually work with your emotions, the emotions that are going on, inside you inside your head, your mind, your physiology, your psychology, and how you work with them, to express an emotion. And if you do express it, how are you going to express it to have the impact that you need, it’s all about, therefore emotional regulation, and emotional manage. And then it’s a case of taking that action into the outer world. And as the pinned with the empathy we’ve been talking about, you use your social skill, your social skills to build up relationships with other people, which involves understanding the context. It involves understanding the politics with a small pea, it involves understanding the emotional climate and choosing one’s language and social capabilities to be able to develop those relationships on a one to one basis in small groups and in large teams. Now, of course, none of this is going to work unless you have motivation. And it’s a case of using the motivation that you’ve got to apply these skills internally. And using this both innovation to work and influence and persuade other people to do what is appropriate. I

Maria Ross 09:51

love it. I love it because that it really is emotional intelligence is this vast network, and it’s almost like saying it for me. It’s almost like saying, you know, you study science. But underneath science is chemistry, physics, biology, all of these other skills that you need if you’re really talking about this big world, this big bucket of the topic. And so it’s sort of like emotional intelligence can’t be just a box that’s checked. That’s Yes, I’ve got, I mean, I guess you could say, If you fulfill all of these things underneath it, you can proudly say I’m a very emotionally intelligent person. But it’s something that we constantly struggle with. And I’m wondering how you deal with in your trainings, the pushback that you might get, especially from business leaders that say, well, emotions have no place in business, they literally take emotional intelligence as just the emotions part, the feelings part. And they view that very negatively of like, well, that means I’m going to be crying, that means I’m going to be angry. That means I’m going to be sad. How do you square that for them?

Robin Hills 10:57

What’s wrong with that? I?

Maria Ross 11:00

But not all the time? Yeah. No,

Robin Hills 11:02

no, no, it’s a case of understanding the the emotions that are happening within the workplace. So any leader that then says to me, Look, we don’t do emotion? Emotions here. Yeah. Yeah, we leave that to Barry Manilow? No, I’m afraid that’s dinosaur thinking. That’s old world thinking and in the world that we are now which is 2023 going into 2024 Going into 2025. And the rest of the 20s. A AI Artificial Intelligence is the big component that is driving a lot of business thinking. Those people that are not recognizing emotions, are defining themselves as being incapable of working with people for the future. The robots will do things without emotions, and they’ll do it very well. So that these people are saying that we don’t do emotions, off you go, then goodbye. Enjoy your retirement exactly is that the world is going to change the world is going to change very dramatically. And people are talking about the skills based economy, well, what skills are going to be needed in a world that is dominated by AI? What is it that we can do as human beings that the robots can’t do? The hurray say, of Berea, the biggest component is empathy. Now, I do appreciate that you’ve recently had a guest on the show who has been talking about affective computing, Michelle, so she

Maria Ross 12:46

talks about cognitive, yeah, she talks about cognitive AI and empathic AI. And we’ll put a link to her episode in the show notes. Because I was actually just going to bring that up, that even in her view, running a company that builds this kind of AI solution, or her thinking is that we still need to be involved as humans, because how else are we going to teach these models, we still have to be developing our own empathy and our own emotional intelligence and working on that. Because otherwise, it won’t be embedded in in the models that we have, because it’s only going to be as good as what we can code into it, and what we can program into it. And so I love that, that, you know, techno optimist view of, we need those skills more than ever. And those are the skills that computers can’t just replicate immediately. But they’re

Robin Hills 13:39

never going to be able to replicate them. And I think we should, Dr. Sol is doing some fantastic phenomenal work in affective computing, trying to build empathy into the systems. Now, the thing is, the computers, the robots will never ever be able to do what it is that you and I Maria can do. That’s because they lack a fundamental component of building up empathy. And the component is probably the most complex device that is available in them that you know, in universe, a human Bray. Now, the very fact that you and I are talking together, miles and miles apart, but the fact that we are empathizing together and building up a relationship together, you’re changing my brain, I’m changing your brain. We’re developing new neural connections and new neural pathways through this interaction and we’ve only been talking 1520 minutes, but that is something that we do very naturally as human beings. We cannot survive without doing that. So when we start looking at the skills needed for the future, empathy becomes so fundamentally key And poor to the future, that we’ve got to look at how we can work with them. But the more appropriately because we as humans will never be led by robots, leaders, leaders have that capability, that capacity, that skill set, to know how to influence and persuade, to know how to stop somebody doing something that they shouldn’t be doing, to be able to drive the right ethics and the right morals through to be able to say to somebody, you’re working too hard, go home, to be able to say to somebody come on, but push yourself a bit further, you can do it. Now, those are the bits that AI will never be able to do. So leadership becomes a really core component for the future. Well,

Maria Ross 15:56

and I love this sentiment, and I’m going to link to his episode to mentor dial who is located in your neck of the woods in the UK, he talks about the fact that there’s also this element of we, as humans are still working on our emotional intelligence, we’re still working on empathy, we’re still building that skill. And we can’t just hope to outsource that to a computer to AI if we’re not even like, if we haven’t even perfected it ourselves. Because that is the other argument that many people say is Oh, I don’t need to learn that skill anymore. I’ll just teach it to AI, I’ll teach I’ll you know, I’ll use AI or I’ll teach it to a computer. And he talks about, you know, we haven’t mastered it as human beings, then you know, that’s not something that can be taught to a machine. So no. And expecting a machine to replicate something that we haven’t even perfected is just, you know, for lack of a better word bonkers like,

Robin Hills 16:57

Well, look, I’m sitting here talking to you as an emotional intelligence expert. I’ve been studying it all my life as indeed you have a family emotionally intelligent, interesting question, isn’t it? Because if I in progress is what I like, most definitely, it’s got me because if I say yes, there’s no room for improvement. And if I say no water, so by doing talking to people about emotional intelligence, it is as you define its work in progress. And I’m still learning, right. And there are some fascinating things that I will share with you that I’ve learned only fairly recently, which really blows my mind. And I think what we’ve got to think about this as we look at empathy, and we look at moving forward. But before I say that there are certain other things that well, before

Maria Ross 17:53

we move on, I want to just switch gears for a moment and talk a little bit about emotional resilience. Yeah, because that is, and maybe that was where you were going with this is you talk about strategies to manage stress and weather storms in the workplace. And I think that that’s a big part. You know, once we’re, once we’re able to be more aware of our triggers and our strengths and our blind spots, being able to build that resilience, especially in the face of so many changes and traumas that we faced in just within the past few years. What are some of those strategies that you talk about that folks need to can use to build that resilience? And maybe, before you even begin that, what is your definition of emotional resilience?

Robin Hills 18:38

Well, resilience is having the capacity to be very, very focused on what it is that you’re trying to do, to have been very, very goal orientated. It’s having the creativity and the adaptability to work as the environment changes. And it’s underpinned by a firm belief that life has some meaning. So all of those components together will give people emotional resilience. And if we go back to our discussion about ai, ai hasn’t bought the adaptability, the creativity, to work as an environment, or changes. The other thing that AI does not possess, it doesn’t possess consciousness. So it has no comprehension of meaning. And it has no comprehension of spirituality, itself, bliss within the universe, whatever you as an individual defines that to be. So all of those are wrapped up within this emotional resilience. So as we are now working in environments which are increasingly Buka, volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous, and they’re going to get even more so this is where the human element come through. And this is where emotional resilience will resound quite nicely, because humans with good emotional resilience have got the creativity and the adaptability to do what is right, ethically and morally, and do it because, well, because, and because it is appropriate to do it, and it gives all of our lives that meaning. So

Maria Ross 20:26

what are some strategies to, to build that resilience and manage that stress, so we can measure those those ups and downs we can whether those ups and downs, again, I’m

Robin Hills 20:37

gonna go back to what we’ve been talking about all the way through this book, because it’s building up the social connections, the networks to have the people that we can fall back on when we need them. And to have the social competence to be able to communicate well with people to be able to say to people, life is getting too much for me at the moment, there’s too much going on in my life, I need a bit of a break, to help me I need some help here. I can’t do everything. So it’s knowing who to have that conversation with them to fall back on. It’s also learning to be a lot more adaptable, a lot more flexible. And to be a little bit more proactive. So saying to oneself, look, this is what I’m going to be working on over the next few days, the next few weeks, what do I need to do in order to make that happen? Now we know that life happens, that changes things, and the unexpected comes up. So it’s having the ability to work around that and be prepared for it and get back to what it is that you’re trying to do. When you you’ve got the ability to do that.

Maria Ross 21:55

So you mentioned earlier this idea of motivation, being really important being motivated to improve your emotional intelligence and to connect with people. How can leaders both inspire themselves and inspire others? To build those successful relationships? What are some ways that they can employ that? Well,

Robin Hills 22:17

the best way to motivate somebody is, again, these are all skills underpinning empathy is to ask them, and to listen. So the critical skill that a leader needs to develop is the ability to coach and the ability to ask the most appropriate questions in the right way to help the other person to explore what it is that they need to do in order to move forward. Now all sounds very, very simple and very straightforward. For being on the end, the receiving end of a good coaching session can be incredibly motivating. Somebody has listened to what I’m saying, somebody is pushing me in a different direction somebody understands. So what I would say to leaders is, stop being a manager and be and stop being a leader, and stop telling people what to do and start coaching people, because they are doing jobs that you will never do. And you will never do it because your job is a leader, not a worker. So what are you doing, telling people what they should be doing? Ask them? What’s the best way of doing this? What’s getting in the way? What can I do to help you to improve your performance more effectively and efficiently?

Maria Ross 23:46

I love that. I love that. As a last question, I want to talk to you about this concept of the intelligence of emotions. You talk about that? And can you share a little bit about what that means? Yes,

Robin Hills 23:57

if we go and have a look at the move, most people quite wrongly, in my view, define emotions as being positive and negative. Now emotions are not positive or negative emotions are physiological and psychological states that drive us forward to adapt around the environment that we find ourselves in. So they’re neither positive or negative. Yes, some emotions can feel quite unpleasant at times, and some emotions can feel quite pleasant. So it’s how we use these emotions in a constructive way. That is the defining part of the emotion. So if we look at emotions as being data, providing us with information, we may be feeling unpleasant, but that’s because we are in a set of circumstances that is driving us to feel that by now, before we came on air. You and I had a little bit of a hiccup in terms of getting the technology to work. And this often happens when I got podcasts so it doesn’t feel good. And it was your friend Maria and I was feeling for you because it didn’t feel particularly nice. I know that because he didn’t same sort of situation. But we needed that feeling of unpleasantness in order to get it to work. So we, we went about doing a few things to sort things out, and hey, we’re having a, a an issue free conversation, which is great. But we can’t feel pleasant all the time. We can’t feel deliriously happy all the time. And why why should we? Or why would we want to be because if we are feeling that way, then we’re going to take unwanted risks, we’re not going to be communicating particularly well with people, we’re not going to be engaging with them at a deep level. So what we’ve got to do is just to recognize, why am I feeling the way that I’m feeling? Isn’t? How can I utilize that emotional state and work with it, in order to be constructive around the way that I’m feeling? I

Maria Ross 26:08

love that I love that idea of of looking at our emotions, positive or negative emotions. As information, that’s often what I talk about in terms of being empathetic is just trying to gather information about somebody else and their context, so that you can move forward together. But that’s almost empathy for ourselves is understood looking at our emotions, as information, what what is this telling me? And what needs to be my next move?

Robin Hills 26:36

But unless we understand it within ourselves? How are we going to understand it with other people? And how are we going to empathize 100%,

Maria Ross 26:44

because if we don’t, if we don’t take the time to reflect on what that emotion means, to us, when we see it in another person, we might react in the same way that we might react if we have that emotion, right, people that are brought up not to cry, or not to show anger. When someone else cries or shows anger, they’re going to dismiss it in that person, because that’s what they were taught to do within themselves. And that does not lead to a productive relationship, or a productive way to move forward, especially if you’re leading someone in the workplace is to try to, you know, understand and motivate someone else. And if you don’t know how to read those emotions as information and what it’s telling you, when you get curious about what it’s telling you, then you can’t move forward together. So

Robin Hills 27:29

I love that. I think we’ve got to set people’s expectations here look, for more academic paper you read, but there anything between about three bells, and 27,000 Dubeau. So we can’t label all of and I think the easiest way for leaders to look at emotions is to define whether it’s a pleasant emotion or an unpleasant emotion. And if it’s unpleasant, how do I use this constructively? And if it’s pleasant, how do I use this constructively, and stop either of these emotions pleasant or unpleasant or either of these groups of emotions, either pleasant or unpleasant, becoming destructive in the way in which we behave, because unpleasant emotions that are destructive, and that they are sustained, will lead to stress and burnout. And I think as leaders, we’ve got to work with that both in ourselves and in other people. And to say, enough is enough. I

Maria Ross 28:31

love it. Well, this has been such a great conversation and lots of little nuggets for us to take with us. I do want to mention to folks that they’re all your links will be in the show notes, especially to your book, the authority guide to behavior in business, how to inspire others and build successful relationships, and a link to all your courses, especially your course on empathy called understanding empathy. And I also see here that you have a little free book for our listeners, developing your emotional intelligence. So I will put that link in the show notes as well. Listeners, check that out. It’s a free resource from Robin to you. So for folks on the go, that don’t have a chance to look into the shownotes Where’s where’s the one or two best places they can connect with you?

Robin Hills 29:18

Well buy companies ie I changed so go straight to the company website, which is EI for change.com and you should be able to find all the information that you spoken about by clicking through there. And I’ve also got a digital magazine called E i matters ei hype and matters.com which is regularly being updated with fresh content. There are again resources quizzes, podcasts, this podcast will be featured on ei matters regularly so do check out ei matters and completely free just go through and and enjoy the articles.

Maria Ross 29:58

I love it. I Love it. Well, you know, there’s we can’t get enough resources to help us improve our emotional intelligence. And I just want to mention for folks that are listening audibly, it’s E I, the number for change.com is the website address. But again, all these links will be in the show notes. And I know there will be lots of listeners who reach out and connect with you, Robin, thank you so much for your time today. Maria,

Robin Hills 30:21

it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for ending my day on such a positive note.

Maria Ross 30:26

And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate review and share it with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

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