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You don’t have to wait for empathy to strike.You can intentionally choose to engage in what my guest today calls Purposeful Empathy to change the dynamic of any interaction. But how? And how do you maintain your own boundaries when being empathic is part of your job?  Today, my guest, Anita Nowak, shares what purposeful empathy is, how and when to engage it, and even how to step back and reclaim your boundaries when empathy could burn you out. We both share personal stories of when we’ve actively chosen empathy in tough situations and how it transformed the exchange. We discuss the physiological changes to  our bodies that occur when we are engaged in empathy – and how empathogens, or certain psychedelics that have been shown to increase empathy, could be applied for therapeutic treatments to heal trauma, control aggression, or other instances where human connection can be challenging. 

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• We are born empathetic creatures, that is how our species has survived. For those who think they aren’t empathetic, that muscle has atrophied and can be rebuilt again. 
• Our brains cannot be in a state of anxiety or stress and in the state of empathy simultaneously.
• There has been a resurgence of research on the study of psychedelics and the potential it has for therapy. Previous research showed a positive relationship between taking these drugs, being accompanied by a trained professional, and outcomes as a result. 

“When it comes to the way we design our world, the way we design public policy, the way that we think about foreign aid, the way we think about how we treat each other and our families and our relationships across political divides, that we need to engage in empathy on purpose.”

—  Anita Nowak

“If you’re feeling triggered by emotions, and you want to down regulate or self regulate, one of the best on ramps to empathy is through a little visit of gratitude.” —  Anita Nowak

“We, as human beings, want a sense of belonging by nature. That’s how we survived as a as Homo sapiens. We really need to draw on that.” —  Anita Nowak

About Anita Nowak, PhD, Author of Purposeful Empathy

Anita Nowak, PhD is passionate about leveraging empathy for personal, organizational and social transformation. She is also dedicated to teaching and mentoring the next generation of changemakers.

She is a two-time TEDx speaker and author of Purposeful Empathy: Tapping Our Hidden Superpower for Personal, Organizational, and Social Change (Broadleaf Books, April 2023). She hosts a podcast and YouTube series by the same name, dedicated to amplifying the voices of people from around the globe who understand the world needs more empathy – and are doing something about it.

For the past fifteen years, Anita has held various leadership roles in higher education at McGill University dedicated to social innovation. She teaches Leadership, Ethics in Management and Social Entrepreneurship & Innovation at the Desautels Faculty of Management. She was named Professor of the Year in 2014 and 2019 and recipient of the David Johnston Faculty and Staff Award in 2021.

As a certified personal and professional coach, she helps purpose-driven leaders and organizations create cultures of empathy through her boutique advisory firm, Purposeful Empathy by Design. Anita also advises High Net Worth (HNW) families to translate their philanthropic goals into social impact.

Resources Mentioned:

How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence (https://michaelpollan.com/books/how-to-change-your-mind/#:~:text=In%20his%20latest%20book%2C%20How,addiction%2C%20depression%2C%20or%20death.) by Michael Pollan

Purposeful Empathy: The Connection between Empathy and “Oneness” ft. Elif M. Gokcigdem, PhD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a696LvTAyiE)

A Force for Good: The Dalai Lama’s Vision for Our World (https://www.amazon.com/Force-Good-Dalai-Lamas-Vision/dp/0553394894/ ) by Daniel Goleman

Connect with Anita Nowak:

Purposeful Empathy: https://www.anitanowak.com/ 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/anitanowak21 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anitanowak 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PurposefulEmpathy 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anitanowak21/ 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@anitanowak2977 

Book: Purposeful Empathy: Tapping Our Hidden Superpower for Personal, Organizational, and Social Change 

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

You don’t have to wait for empathy to strike. You can intentionally choose to engage in what my guest today calls purposeful empathy to change the dynamic of any interaction. But how and how do you maintain your own boundaries when being empathic as part of your job? Anita Novak is my delightful guest today to talk about her forthcoming book, purposeful empathy, tapping our hidden superpower for personal organizational and social change. It’s coming in April 2023. But it’s available for pre order now. I need a Novak is a PhD passionate about leveraging empathy for personal organizational and social transformation. She is also dedicated to teaching and mentoring the next generation of changemakers. Anita is a two-time TEDx speaker, host of the purposeful empathy podcast and YouTube series, both dedicated to amplifying the voices of people from around the globe, who understand the world needs more empathy, and are doing something about it. Anita teaches leadership, ethics and management and Social Entrepreneurship and Innovation at McGill University. As a certified personal and professional coach. She also helps purpose driven leaders and organizations create cultures of empathy through her boutique advisory firm, purposeful empathy by design. Anita also advises High Net Worth families to translate their philanthropic goals into social impact. Today, Anita shares what purposeful empathy is, and how and when to engage it, and even how to step back and reclaim your boundaries when empathy could burn you out. We both share personal stories of when we’ve actively chosen empathy in a tough situation, and how it transformed the exchange. We discussed the physiological changes to our bodies that occur when we’re engaged in empathy, and how and pathogens or certain psychedelics that have been shown to increase empathy could be applied for therapeutic treatments to heal trauma control, aggression, or other instances where human connection can be challenging. This was such a delicious conversation to have hope you enjoy it. 

Maria Ross  03:37

Welcome Anita Nowak to the empathy edge podcast. This interview has been a long time coming. Welcome.

 Anita Nowak  03:44

Thank you so much, Maria. I’m so happy to be here.

Maria Ross  03:47

So, you and I are fellow empathy activists, empathy advocates, whatever we call ourselves on a given day. And I’m so excited for you to talk about purposeful empathy, your book that will be coming out, which will be coming out in April 2023, but will be available for preorder anyone interested after they hear this wonderful conversation? Tell us a little bit. You know, we heard about all your accolades and your and your, your roles. Tell us a little bit about how you came to this work. What What’s your story?

 Anita Nowak  04:20

Yeah, the origin story, I can thank my thesis advisor, I was doing my PhD on one topic, and moonlighting as a professional fundraiser. And I was head hunted to take on a new mandate and raise funds for girls’ education, which was exciting. And I said to my thesis advisor that I needed a year off off from my PhD and he said, please don’t do that. Like you’ll never finish and I said, No, no, no, I will. He’s like, no, this is when everybody drops off the bandwagon. Anyways, he had me in his office six months later, and I didn’t come in with any agenda. He said, what’s new, and I told him that this would place this actually in the spring of 2008. And that summer, I was going to go to Kigali, Rwanda to work with a women’s collective, all 400 genocide survivors and help them raise my launch of microfinance project, essentially. And I was really excited. And I was telling Michael all about this. And he stopped me and he said, you’re lit up like a Christmas tree. And the only way you’re going to finish your thesis is if you actually are as passionate about your topic as you are about this trip you’re taking. So, he gave me advice, he told me to go home and find the box or the file or the folder that I keep stashing stuff into. He’s like, go find it, and then explore what’s there and come back to me with your real passion. And I walked out of his office, really irate thinking, how dare he question my passion about my topic, right. But I actually had to do a filing cabinet, a metal, an old-fashioned metal, metal filing cabinet, and I rifled through it and I came across a miscellaneous file that I didn’t know that I had, even though it was my handwriting. And I spread the contents, and I discovered all sorts of clippings. And, you know, I had been to a few different speakers’ events, and I couldn’t make sense of it until I came across one little article about a boy in elementary school who decided to go to school for an entire week without shoes, because he’d learned about childhood poverty wanted to know what that felt like and wanted to educate his classmates. Oh my gosh, right. And that’s when I started to notice the common theme across all the little doodads that I had, which was I was attracted to people who were trying to learn about others step into their shoes and create positive change as a result. And the word social entrepreneurship was not part of my vocabulary. But I discovered my peeps, as soon as I discovered, oh, there’s this change making group called social entrepreneurs, social innovators, let me understand those better. So, I ended up doing dozens of interviews about with social entrepreneurs about their lives. And I asked them the same standard questions, including their backstory, like you’ve just asked me. And one of the things that came up, like across the board, with no exception, was the reason they decided to become social entrepreneurs and pursue the work that they did, when they had a lot of other opportunities. These are all talented, gifted, hardworking entrepreneurs. But the reason they were driven to do the work that they did was because they felt a sense of empathy for others, and a need to act on that empathy. So, I have fallen in love with empathy as a driver for social change since then, that’s the backstory.

Maria Ross  07:34

Wow, wow, that’s amazing. And like, you know, it’s often the people that make us the most irate in our lives, that brings us the epiphanies. So, kudos to your professor, for putting you on this path. So tell us a little bit about what you mean, and why you titled The book purposeful empathy? How is that different from regular empathy? Why is it important? How do we apply it?

 Anita Nowak  08:00

Yeah, as you would know, as an empathy aficionado, as well, there’s a lot of different ways people define empathy, and unpack empathy. And I guess sort of the most common two ways of looking at the phenomenon is through an effect of empathy, the feelings we have that happened to us versus cognitive empathy, which involves our neocortex and sort of perspective taking, imagining what others are experiencing. And so, I put a fine point on purposeful empathy. Because I think we need to engage empathy on purpose. I don’t think it’s enough that we just have the capacity to empathize. And in the moment, when somebody’s telling us a poignant story, we feel a resonance with them, our mirror neurons are firing, we’re feeling affective empathy. I think when it comes to the way we design our world, the way we design public policy, the way that we think about foreign aid, the way we think about how we treat each other and our families and our relationships across political divides, that we need to engage in empathy on purpose. So that’s why.

Maria Ross  08:58

Yeah, gosh, amen. And I love that because there is this notion of many people. And I’m sure you’ve dealt with this in your talks, as I have where people say, Well, I’m just not naturally empathetic. And we know from science that we are actually born empathetic creatures in our DNA. It’s how our species has survived. And barring a few psychological anomalies, we are born with it. But the muscle atrophies. And so, I think many of us expect empathy to just show up for us versus tap into it. So, I like this idea of being intentional and purposeful. What are some ways people can do that? How do you advise especially in the book or in your coaching models, you know, if they go great, I’m on board, I want to intentionally activate my empathy. Where do I start?

 Anita Nowak  09:51

Well, I can do that with a story that happened to me. So, as I was learning about the neuroscience of empathy and the whole idea that we have neuroplasticity so we can really literally rewire our brains by thinking different thoughts and behaving in different ways. I did a lot of different personal experiments. And one story I like to share, which I still think is a powerful example of, you know, making the decision to be empathic in the moment. I was standing in a long lineup at a FedEx in about 10 years ago, 12 years ago, so before mobile phones were, you know, part of our appendage, and so there was nothing to distract us. And it was the lineup during the holidays, 30 minutes, I was waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, get up to the counter. And the woman who greeted me at the FedEx counter was rude. And I mean, like, capital are rude and unnecessarily rude that she, she triggered me in a way that I thought I was just gonna like, oh, well, you think I’ve been there? Yeah. But in that moment, I had a flash, I’m like, okay, let me test this empathy thing. And so I took a breath, and I looked at her and I asked her, Are you okay? And when she realized that I was not being sarcastic, and I was being earnest. She broke down straightaway into tears. And she said, I have been working double shifts for two weeks straight. I have a son at home, who’s got a fever, I’m catching the flu. I haven’t had a lunch break. It’s 3pm. I’m just flat out exhausted. And I we read a reached out for hands across the counter, we locked eyes, we were both crying, I got her a mint tea came back. And then she served me with elegance and grace and my parcel went off to the world. But that was just a moment of getting goosebumps just talking to it’s a moment that has served me so often to say, how can I flip the switch in this moment, because we are all, you know, wandering around as perfectly resilient, amazing human beings. But we have so many things going on in our lives below the surface that we just don’t know, even coming across colleagues on a regular basis. And just taking the time to kind of check in with somebody and change the dynamic of a conversation with the gesture of empathy. It’s available to us all. And once you get into the habit, you start looking for ways to do it. And it just becomes part of your way of being in the world. And honestly, it makes you a happier person. That’s what I’ve discovered.

Maria Ross  09:51

A hundred percent and this just happened to be a few weeks ago, ironically, when I was flying back from delivering an empathy and leadership training session, there was a massive flight delay in Dallas to get me home. And it ended up being delayed hours and hours and hours, and then they bumped the flight to the next day. So, talk about angry people. But it was one of those moments where you could tell there was just chaos going on at the airport, all over the place anyway. And I could tell dealing with the gate agent, even though I was pissed, right? I was like, she’s just getting it from all sides. So, I same thing I sort of like how could I flip this? And I spoke to her in a way of like, how are you doing? Like, I know, this is not your fault. We’re all really frustrated, I actually offered to get her an iced tea, I offered to get her a drink. And I said, well, obviously not an alcoholic one. But you know, whatever. And I was still really angry about the situation I was in. But two things happened. One was I felt happier in the situation. It was like me being empathetic with her and reaching out to her made me feel better. The second thing was it enabled me to have a clear enough head that I even mediated somebody else yelling at her to say, okay, I think everyone’s frustrated, we all need to just take a breath. Like, it’s not your fault. It’s not her fault. And it didn’t make either of them, you know, shake hands and hug. But everyone at least took a beat. Right? And so, and that was actually really hard for me to just get out of my own anger and frustration and getting home to my son and whatever. But it made the exchange better.

 Anita Nowak  14:05

For sure did and that you shouldn’t upgrade yourself. If you feel triggered, we all feel triggered. We have emotions, right? That’s part of life. But I think what I’ve discovered is having self-awareness that there’s an opportunity to change the circumstances, and taking a minute to just breathe. And sometimes, you know, you might even need a few minutes. You can do it in a nanosecond. But you know, our brains cannot be in a state of anxiety or stress and in the state of empathy simultaneously. So if you’re feeling triggered by emotions, and you want to down regulate or self-regulate, one of the best on ramps to empathy is through a little visit of gratitude. So, if you think about something that you are grateful for, well, like, okay, the flight is delayed. What does that mean? That means I’m not going to be on a plane that’s going to land with a crash. Let me be grateful for that. Let me be grateful for the fact that I don’t work in a place where I can have you know, really people yelling me all the time. Right, then all of a sudden empathy can open up.

Maria Ross  15:04

Right? Right. And I think too, it’s, it’s also, you know, I, you probably get this question a lot too of like, well, what if I’m trying to be empathetic with someone who’s not being empathetic to me. And I often say, well, it’s not your job to change them. If you are the one that’s realizing there’s a lack of empathy in the exchange, it’s actually your job to step up and model it, and see how it changes the dynamic of the exchange. And so, it’s almost like, I hate to phrase it this way. But it’s almost like the person who’s a little bit more emotionally secure in that moment. It’s kind of incumbent upon them to engage in purposeful empathy, because maybe the other person just doesn’t have the capacity for it at that moment.

 Anita Nowak  15:46

Yeah, I totally agree with you. 

Maria Ross  15:48

Love it, love it. Okay. So, what are I mean, we’ve talked a lot on the show about different benefits of empathy. But let’s let’s get to the very individual level, and whether it applies to you as an individual in your personal life, or you as an individual in your work life and your workplace. What are the personal benefits of extending empathy, but marrying that with it not crossing over into what you call empathy fatigue? Because that is a big question people have, especially if they are overly empathic.

 Anita Nowak  16:19

Right. So, the benefits are really clear. The neuroscientists who have studied what it means to be in an empathic embrace tell us through their sophisticated fMRI machines, that our pleasure and reward centers light up this same way they do if we’re eating fantastic food, high on psychedelics, or even in a post coital moment, I don’t know how they measure that.

Maria Ross  16:47

From the studies from Masters and Johnson, probably, yeah.

 Anita Nowak  16:52

But what happens to our bodies, physiologically is that cortisol drops. So, and cortisol is a hormone, a stress related hormone that causes all sorts of inflammation in the body that’s, you know, connected to a bunch of chronic diseases. And as the cortisol drops, what grows in our bodies are hormones like oxytocin, and the feel-good hormones that we experience when we’re feeling really connected to someone. And with that comes a whole host of benefits where our breathing stabilizes, they say our immune system functions better. So, there’s just a ton of evidence that shows that when we are in an empathic embrace with someone, we’re feeling emotionally connected, it is soothing to our system, and to our psychology and to our spiritual nature. So that’s beautiful. But there are limits to that, right. And we see it most obviously, in people who are in the service professions, right? Anybody who’s a front care, health care worker, Frontline, health care worker, teachers, to a certain extent psychologists, social workers, humanitarians, even social entrepreneurs, people who are extending empathy, as part of their job, have to find ways in which to also create spaces for self-empathy. So, like the rituals of coming home and taking a bath, or being in nature, there’s great research coming out of Japan on I think the Japanese word for forest bathing is shooting yuku, which is just wandering through nature has a health like tonic to us. And so, there’s lots of ways that we can recharge our batteries. But we really must, because when we reach a saturation point, and we can no longer you know, we don’t have the capacity to empathize, we actually can become really mean,

Maria Ross  18:36

Right, while the well runs dry at some point, even even for the best-intentioned people. So, what I hear you saying is that, not only do we need to be intentional when we practice empathy, we also need to be intentional when we need to back off and, and refuel.

 Anita Nowak  18:52

Hundred percent. 

Maria Ross  18:53

I love it. I love it so much. So, what are some other advice you have for people about overcoming empathy fatigue? What can they do to set better boundaries, from actually taking on the feelings and the anxiety and the fear and the all the things from other people that they’re trying to create an empathic connection with?

 Anita Nowak  19:17

Sure. So well, one of my favorites is known as a metta meditation. So metta is a Sanskrit word for loving kindness. And it’s something so beautiful to practice, which is it’s a four-step process. So just imagine we’re going to do some metta meditation together. So right now, we’re going to both think about people we love, okay, our family, our siblings, parents, children, our beloved, and we send them loving kindness. What does that mean? We send them, you know, just we want them to have a great day. We want them to catch the green lights when they’re in a rush. We want them to find that perfect pair of shoes on sale, whatever, right?

Maria Ross  19:58

Right. 

 Anita Nowak  19:59

Then as a second step, we think about all the people we really like. So that could be our colleagues at work that could be our neighbors, people we went to high school with, just send them the same kind of loving kindness. Then the third step, and you do this for like a minute or two, each category. So, the third group is strangers, we send loving kindness to strangers, we think about, I don’t know, a fisherman in the Philippines, or a farmer in Idaho that, you know, had the wheat on his farm that’s in the bread that you ate with your breakfast, and you just send loving kindness to strangers. And then the fourth category, which is of course, the toughest but worth doing is you send loving kindness to people who may have disappointed you, or hurt you, or that you disagree with on a fundamental or political level, and you even send them loving kindness. And this flexes the empathy muscle that all of us as human beings are worthy. You know, I heard one of the things that I remember learning that struck me the most and has always stayed with me comes from a Islamic arts historian. She has a PhD in Islamic art. She’s originally from Turkey, she now lives in Washington, DC. Her name is Philip […] I hope they got that right. And she I asked her an interview I said, what is it about? Is there anything in Islamic art that actually has informed her thinking about empathy? She writes prolifically about empathy herself. And she said, Oh, yes, the circle. And I said, really the circle? And she said, what’s that about? And she said, well look, it the most basic geometry is connecting two dots right into a line. And then if you connect three dots, you got to triangle four, it’s either a rectangle, square, whatever, because you can also have a collection of dots that make no shape that has a name, and you can connect them all. When you spread, when you stretch, like imagine stretching out all of those little dots to its furthest end point, they all end up in a circle, they can’t No, no shape can be stretched out further than a circle. So, circle encompasses everything. And she said, when you think about a circle, it’s made up of an infinite number of dots along its circumference. And if you think about humanity as each of those dots, okay, so there’s 7 billion of us almost 8 billion, imagine eight, the 8 million dots on this circle, all of us, all of us are equidistant to center, all of us. And no matter where we are on the circle, either side by side, or across the way, we all have a different perspective towards the center. So, I find that an amazing metaphor for empathy, because we all have different lived experiences. And yet we all share this common humanity. So, I think you know, something like a metta meditation, if you get into the habit of doing it, if even if you’re in traffic, or you’re washing your hair or whatever, you don’t have to take like, an hour of your day to meditate. But I think it’s a really good way of, of flexing your empathy muscles in a way that is also kind to yourself.

Maria Ross  22:59

Oh, my God, I love it. I mean, it reminds me so much I read a book, I can’t recall the title of the book. But it was a book on leadership from the Dalai Lama, but it was actually written by somebody else, and it’s escaping me, but I will find it and I will put it in the show notes. And he talked a lot about that about sending love and blessings and good intentions to the people that have hurt you the most to people that you perceive as enemies, because it actually changes your mindset, it changes your not just your mood, but also it sounds like from what you’re saying physiologically. And that’s, again, the hardest thing to do. And I think in our very divisive world right now. It’s something really, really hard to do. And I, I have tried to do that with you know, this is a little bit personal, but even in my in my prayers, like trying to say prayers for the leaders that I find repulsive and cruel and mean of just, I hope their heart heals, I hope they find their way. Because when they find their way if if good things happen for them in terms of them healing, that’s actually good for the rest of the world, because of the actions they will take as a result of that. So I try to I try to find that in my prayers for what’s going on in the world right now. You know, in between the cursing and the getting mad and all of that,

 Anita Nowak  24:26

Right. That’s right, and it’s Canadian Thanksgiving coming up this weekend. I know that yours as we’re taping this and, and yours is coming up in about a month. I think thanksgiving has changed in our lives because we don’t talk about politics or society because we’re so afraid of the divisions that it might cause and sort of the animosity at the dinner table. And I think we can’t allow different political opinions to break down our social fabric. We as human beings, want a sense of belonging by nature. That’s how we survived as a as homosapiens right, so we really need to draw on that. Well,

Maria Ross  25:05

So much good stuff. All right, I have this last question for you, because I’m so intrigued by it. Can you talk a little bit about empathogens, and the relationship between empathy and psychedelics?

 Anita Nowak  25:16

Yeah. So, I read Michael Pollan’s book, how to change your mind, which is about psychedelics. And I was curious to understand the connection with empathy, because it struck me that when you’re when you are high on psychedelics, you know, all sorts of new ways of seeing the world and new ways of seeing relationships open up. And it turns out that pre-Nixon era, there were a lot of researchers that were studying LSD, and psilocybin and MDMA in order to understand what the what potential it had for therapy for things like alcoholism, PTSD, and there was just a ton of research showing a positive relationship between taking these drugs being accompanied by a trained professional, and outcomes as a result. But of course, all that got shut down by the Nixon administration, right enemy public enemy number one is drugs. And then there was the whole incarceration movement and sort of the what is it called the I forgotten the word but it’s the prison industrial complex, right. Also at the same time, it in the meantime, we’re now seeing a resurgence of research. And if you look at any of the research centers at the ivy, League’s they all have them, even the best hospitals in your country are looking at them. And that’s wonderful news. There’s a lot of new funding going in the direction of psychedelics to help with therapeutic, you know, there’s not been much movement in therapy in a long, long time, most of it is all just through pharmacology. But now there’s another pathway that’s opening up so in pathogens is a word that was coined by a Harvard professor actually to talk about the state that we’re in when we’re using certain drugs. And MDMA was actually originally called, it’s now known, the street name is ecstasy. But it was originally called empathy, because of the state of feeling that we were in and it was only in Los Angeles, a man decided that he would rebrand from empathy to ecstasy, because he thought it would sell better and he was writing Wow, permeated the, the club scene, and it took off. And then of course, it was shut down by the FDA.

Maria Ross  27:38

So you’re saying that the research showed that when people were on that drug, they displayed more empathy, they felt more empathy? How did they measure that?

 Anita Nowak  27:46

Yeah. Personal anecdotal feedback about how did that feel to you that people just felt a sense of like, connection, resonance, and I feel you and I hear you. Yeah, that’s what’s Wow, there’s now new research and something that I’m personally very interested in is how can I don’t mean like, let’s all get stoned and live a better life. I mean, leverage psychedelics, to open up neural pathways that might allow us to see the way we are all connected our interconnectedness, our connection to the planet and to me, and that there might be an opportunity for us to actually kind of see past a very materialist and and me-me-me culture. 

Maria Ross  28:32

Right? Oh, my gosh. And, you know, that brings up so much. I mean, maybe this is a little controversial. But what it sparks for me when you say that is therapies for rehabilitation of violent criminals, for example, not that we would force them to take psychedelics, but the opportunities within hope, you know, hopefully, rehabilitative therapies that they’re hopefully going through, would, would maybe help with that, and then also to head off more dangerous tendencies and someone that’s starting to display those those traits, and then now they’re in therapy, you know, a way to marry that with the with the talk therapy that they’re doing or whatever of their behavioral therapy that they’re engaged in.

 Anita Nowak  29:15

I think the potential is that anybody who has experienced trauma, most of us have some way or other, it’s a new modality of healing and opens up for us is, as you said, you know, earlier in the conversation, we were saying, you know, both of you are triggered, but maybe one of you has the capacity, the wherewithal, imagine if, you know, we could develop the capacity to heal past our pains, so that more of that empathy was accessible to us.

Maria Ross  29:45

Oh, my gosh, I love it. I love it so much. Well, this has been a very enlightening conversation. And I’m very excited for the book. I’m going to read the name of it again here purposeful empathy, tapping our hidden superpower for personal or organizational and social change. It will be out in April 2023. But available for pre sale now. Yes, correct. Awesome. And we will have all your links in the show notes. I need it as well as some of the things we talked about in books we referenced today. But for folks listening on the go or exercising while they’re listening to the podcast, where’s a great place, they can learn more about you and your work or connect with you. 

 Anita Nowak  30:23

Two simple places you just put into YouTube purposeful empathy, and you’ll find me I’ve got YouTube series and also my websit, Anita Novak, and oh, wak.com

Maria Ross  30:37

Awesome. Thank you so much for your insights today, and best of luck with the book. 

 Anita Nowak  30:41

Thank you Maria. Have a wonderful day.

Maria Ross  30:44

And thank you everyone for listening to another great guest on the empathy edge podcast. If you liked the episode, please don’t keep it to yourself, share it with others. And don’t forget to rate and review if you have an opportunity. Until next time, please always remember our mantra here. cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

Racism was designed to keep us apart, It was designed to create conflict and a scarcity mindset. When we’re socialized to hide our authentic selves and not bring who we really are to every interaction, we just cannot connect. Leaders, whether tackling diversity and inclusion or just everyday engagement and performance, can learn a lot of lessons about how authenticity and connection lead to better outcomes.

My guest today, Berwick Mahdi Davenport, and I tackled big questions for amazingly useful insights.  We discussed what is the ultimate human need, what role authentic connection plays in satisfying that need, and how listening is the hardest but most effective practice for leaders. We defined honesty, vulnerability, and authenticity in meaningful ways you can apply to your leadership right now, and how the lack of them gets in the way of effective performance. Finally, we talked about how racism and racial inequity play out in the workplace and society, preventing us from creating together and making smarter decisions.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• When you talk less and listen more, your leadership will transform. 
• The ultimate human need is significance – this can look like a job package, a job title, a connection, relationships, love, and so much more. But it is all the same thing – they want to matter.
• When we are not authentic to ourselves and to those around us, people notice and feel that, and it causes a disconnect within ourselves. 
• Everybody deserves to have the respect and space to grow. Nobody gets to where they are now overnight.

“What we have to realize as a leader is that you cannot pay people anything of equal value, no matter how much it is, to their life. Please don’t forget to live, because this thing happens so quickly.”

—  Berwick Mahdi Davenport

About Berwick Mahdi Davenport, CEO, Soul Focused Group

Mahdi, CEO of Soul Focused Group, brings over thirty years of experience as a practicing life coach and anti-racist organizer, facilitator, and spiritual teacher. Mahdi’s primary focus has been and continues to be facilitating human connection that helps people recover and heal from racism and other forms of mental and emotional trauma. This expertise and passion allowed Mahdi to expertly hold space for leaders to explore and heal from the cultural programming that allows racism to sustain.

Mahdi brings patience, wisdom, and lightning-bolt directness to his mission.  He is an alchemist at creating space for healing to make a new way of seeing possible.

Mahdi’s honest, transformative, and healing approach at facilitating human connection gives birth to genuine relationships, friendships, and partnerships. People who once didn’t see eye to eye find themselves standing on common ground. The shift happens on common ground.

References Mentioned:

The Empathy Edge podcast with Paul Marobella: https://theempathyedge.com/paul-marobella-leading-through-crisis/

The Empathy Edge podcast with Daniel Jahn: https://theempathyedge.com/daniel-jahn-racial-solidarity-and-the-psychology-of-racism/

The Empathy Edge podcast with M.E. Hart: https://theempathyedge.com/m-e-hart-how-to-bridge-divisions-by-embracing-our-common-humanity/

The Empathy Edge podcast with M.E. Hart: https://theempathyedge.com/m-e-hart-how-to-have-honest-conversations-at-work/

Connect with Berwick Mahdi Davenport:

Email: berwickdavenport@gmail.com 

Soul Focused Group: https://www.soulfocusedgroup.com 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/berwick-mahdi-davenport-3494a42 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/berwick.davenport

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesoulfocusedgroup/ 

Their New Workshop: Creating Human Solidarity: The Solution To Ending Racism

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Racism was designed to keep us apart. It was designed to create conflict and a scarcity mindset. When we’re socialized to hide our authentic selves, and not bring who we really are every interaction. We just cannot connect. Leaders whether tackling diversity and inclusion, or just everyday engagement and performance can learn a lot of lessons about how authenticity and connection lead to better outcomes. My guest today, Berwick Mahdi Davenport and I tackled big questions for some amazingly useful insights. Mahdi as he is known is the CEO of soul focused group, and brings over 30 years of experience as a practicing life coach, and anti-racist organizer, facilitator and spiritual teacher. Mahdi’s primary focus is facilitating human connection that helps people recover and heal from racism, and other forms of mental and emotional trauma. This expertise and passion allows him to expertly hold space for leaders to explore and heal from the cultural programming that allows racism to sustain. His organization provides workshops, keynotes, and facilitated gatherings to crack open tough conversations and find human solidarity, which he believes is the solution for ending racism, and enabling us to be stronger, more successful leaders. We discussed what is the ultimate human need, what role authentic connection plays in satisfying that need? How listening is the hardest but most effective practice for leaders, and he’ll tell you about his talking diet with his team daughter. We defined honesty, vulnerability and authenticity in meaningful ways that you can apply to your leadership right now. And how a lack of them gets in the way of effective performance. Finally, we talked about how racism and racial inequity play out in the workplace and society, preventing us from creating together and making smarter decisions. I loved this conversation and hope you will to take a listen. 

Maria Ross  04:02

I’m excited to welcome Berwick, Mahdi Davenport, otherwise known as Mahdi, to his friends and best podcast listeners, the CEO of soul focused group, welcome to the podcast.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  04:14

Thank you for having me, Maria, I really appreciate this opportunity to talk to your listening audience and to really just get down to business in terms of business of empathy, right?

Maria Ross  04:24

The business of empathy. I love that that was actually I think in the mix for the title of my book, but and I just want to bring listeners back to the fact that I found you through DJ John, who was on an episode previously, which I will link to in the show notes, really educating us on the difference between racism and race and the history of where racism comes from. And talk to us about a lot of the great things that soul focus group does, but now that we’ve got you here, let’s remind our listeners what is soul focused group What is your mission? And what’s your story? How did you come to this work?

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  05:04

All those are very good questions, I would say, you know, the sole focus group, our mission is to eradicate racism, right? Through the creation of human solidarity. Right? Try to put it in in basic nutshell. What brought about the sole focus group was the idea that me and my business partner Dustin Washington had been doing anti-racism, organizing and facilitating workshops, we’ve facilitated over maybe five to 6000 workshops, we’ve trained hundreds of 1000s of people literally. And what we found was that there was something missing from our work. And what was missing was our relationship with ourselves. So we were sacrificing our families who were sacrificing our health. There were people among us in the movement who were suffering from addictions, suffering from financial issues, health issues. And we all learned to just ignore ourselves because our job was to change the world, right. And essentially, what we said to ourselves is that we’re going to put living our life on hold, until racism has gone. So so much about what we will focus on. So, it’s about everybody else, not about ourselves. And things got so bad for us that we realized that we left the leader behind, right. So, we are leaders, right. But we had left ourselves by and so we say we left the leader behind was, so we had to go back and get the leader, right? Go back and reclaim our lives, because we had essentially gave our lives up to do this work. And so we created sole focus, because we wanted to bring about a completeness in this work while we do this work, but we also are balanced with taking care of ourselves, and aspiring to live our lives to the fullest in the face of racism. So we’re not waiting for racism to be over, to live out to live our life to the fullest and to be the best leaders that we can be. We’re doing it now.

Maria Ross  07:05

Oh, my gosh, there’s so much to unpack there. I mean 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  07:08

Yeah, there is. 

Maria Ross  07:09

It’s just a what an amazing story. And what an amazing revelation that you all came to early on. It sounds like,

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  07:17

Well, it wasn’t

Maria Ross  07:18

Wasn’t earlier. It wasn’t early on. Okay,

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  07:20

No. This is like 20 years.

Maria Ross  07:21

Oh, wow. Okay, 20 years down the path. Okay. And what you find yourself repeating what other people have done. And people are not really questioning everything. I think one of the things that we struggle with the most is being able to confess what we see that’s not working, but we’re doing it anyway. Because the people that came before us did it. Right. Right. Right. So, we felt we, as leaders, we felt a certain degree of any effectiveness. And we had, the biggest challenge among us was to come clean with ourselves about the fact that we weren’t being affected. And that we would have to change our strategies change our approach at doing this work. And when you bring yourself back into the picture that was once out of the picture, it changes everything. Because now you having to have more complete strategies that are not just about focusing on the other people, but it’s about how do I bring myself How do I bring ourselves into a place of health, happiness and joy? While we’re doing this work, right? When you start seeing people completely differently, when you are happy, healthy, you know, how you see people, how you engage with people, as a leader, completely transformed well.  And you also fill your well, so to speak, of being able to sustain the work because I think, you know, this is so true of empathy, as well, very empathic individuals tend to burn can tend to burn themselves out if they don’t set those boundaries or practice self-empathy. Definitely. So, with all those good intentions, I was just doing an interview recently, where we talked about the fact that especially in jobs where empathy is required, there, you need to have those those abilities to step back to focus on yourself in an unselfish way. Yes, and build up your reserves, just like we charge up our phones every night. Right? It’s, it’s having that ability, otherwise, you can’t do the work anymore.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  09:19

And that’s, that’s so true. Maria, I remember, there was a speaking engagement that I was invited to, to speak to a group of fathers, right. And I have three beautiful daughters. And at the time, they were they were babies, and the oldest was in high school. So, I went to speak to this group of fathers and, you know, I thought I did a real good job, you know, and tooting my own horn. They thought it was a great presentation, brought them to their feet in the standing ovation. And so, after was over, I picked up my oldest daughter from high school. She was in high school at the time, she was only 16. And I would pick up on a regular basis and when she would get in the car, I would ask the standard question. Just as a father, how was your day? She would start telling me about a day and I would immediately get on the phone with someone. You know, as a life coach, I was always working with people. And so, this was what I did on a regular basis. I never thought twice about it was just my routine, our routine. So, I thought, but this particular day, I said to myself, I really want to know something. But what I wanted to know was I wanted her to really pat me on the back, like the guys at the speed, the speaking engagement that I did. So, I asked her a question and I said, sit Nasha. Daddy wants to ask you a question. And I said, I promise I won’t get upset. I just want you to be honest with me. I don’t care what you say. I just wanted you to be honest. So that short that I’ll be honest with you. So, as I said, Nasha, am I a good father? 

Maria Ross  10:46

Wow. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  10:46

That was the question, right? Now, here. Here I am. As a leader, I’m about to put my foot in it. I don’t know it, though. But as a leader, I’m ticking. I’m taking that, that risks. While at the same time my ego is saying, I’m no she’s gonna see you doing a great job. So, I was looking for that pat on the back from her.

Maria Ross  11:04

You are looking for the validation. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  11:05

Oh, yeah. I mean, I thought it was coming. It was like, if someone would have told me it wasn’t coming, I would have been like, no, you You don’t know my daughter know, right. So, she says to me, Sure, Dad, I’m glad you asked me that question. Because I’ve been thinking about it for a while. Well, I kind of said back and you know, in the driver’s seat, and I’m like, what do you mean by that? And I was like, don’t worry about it. Just forget it. Just just tell me. Am I a good father? She says, to be honest with you. You are a lousy father. Everything stopped in my world. 

Maria Ross  11:37

Wow

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  11:38

I have my head. Everything stopped. And my voice raised. I got upset. And I said, how, how dare you say something like that? All that I do for you. I can’t believe you would say that. I’m a lousy father. And then I caught myself. And I was like, wait a minute, I promised I wouldn’t get upset. 

Maria Ross  11:56

Actually, you promise you would get mad. Yeah.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  11:58

So at that moment, I apologize to and I begged you to tell me why Give me one reason. One thing that makes me such a lousy father. And she says, and I’ll tell you the thing that she said makes me a lousy father is the same thing and makes us lousy leaders. She says, Daddy, you don’t listen to other thing. And I said, That’s not true. She says you’re not listening right now. I said, yes, I am. And we went back and forth that for a minute. Then I said, Wait a minute timeout. Can you give me one way that you know that I don’t listen. She says, Daddy, I come to you all the time and share things that are very important with me in my life. And she says I was sharing with you to come back and ask you about it later, you have no recollection of it. And she says you do that all the time. And she said, I’ve come to three conclusions about you. From you not listening to me. Number one, you really don’t love me. You you are doing what you have to do. Because as a father, it’s your responsibility. Number two, she says I tell you tell people all the time that we are so close, stop telling him that we are not close at all. And the third thing she says, I hear you telling people that you know, you know me, she says you don’t know me. And that moment, I was like, Oh my god. So as a leader, I’m getting a self-evaluation done.

Maria Ross  13:18

You are and you’re like, I’m sorry, I asked

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  13:20

The same time when she said that. At first, I was thinking about myself, right? And then for a minute, I showed someone empathy, and connecting to what this must mean to her. Right? And what impact has me not listening to my daughter hat on her perception of our own voice? In a patriarchal world, right, where I’m out in the world, supposed to be representing what? A male in recovery. Right recovering my femininity, recovering my meat, understanding what it what it means the feminine energy, even the means right now in the workplace. That when she said that, to me, I was I started thinking about how she stopped feeling. And I felt something distance between us. But the first time I was became aware of that distance, because before I wasn’t, I tricked myself. I thought we I really thought we were really close. And when she brought that to my attention, I realized I start seeing the science in my head, how much distance there was between us. And the last thing I wanted was to lose my daughter to the world, you know, for her to start looking to, you know, the outside for advice, versus being able to trust her parents being able to trust her father. So, I made an agreement in that moment. And I said, I don’t know how that’s gonna work. But I said, I promise you, I’m going to do this. I’m going to go into talking diet. And I said in this talk and diet, I said, I’m going to only talk 20% I’m going to listen 80% And I said, I can’t tell you exactly what is what’s that going to mean in real time. But I know I’m gonna practice it. And I gave him my word. And I dedicated myself for three years to literally listening, listening the majority of the time, which is 80%. And I will talk very little. And what I discovered was my leadership transform. Because I was leading from a place before, I’m not listening to people. So now, the first year was like torture, I felt like a two-year-old put in timeout. Because the way I approached the world was more like, I thought, I was the only voice that was that mattered in the room. So, it was about you listening to my voice, not me listening to your voice, right. And we know that you don’t find connection with people, if you don’t listen to their voice. If you always have an expectation of them listening to you, but you’re not listening to them, you don’t create connection. So when I started becoming aware of just how disconnected I was from people, you know, that diet transformed my entire life, it transformed my relationship with my daughter, which was priority. But more and more importantly, it transformed my ability to lead people because what I started becoming present to is that people when you listen to him, tell you how to lead them. So essentially, people are leading themselves, oftentimes not taking responsibility for the direction that they’ve given themselves. And so as someone they look up to, you are giving them permission to follow what they know, instinctively to follow, anyway.

Maria Ross  16:32

Well, so there’s so much in that because we’ve talked so much to too many guests on this show about humble leadership. And this idea of humility being a necessary ingredient to being great leader. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  16:45

Yes. 

Maria Ross  16:45

And someone recently spoke to me about the difference between an authoritarian leader and an authoritative leader. And I think we all are striving to be an authoritative leader where we, we are guiding we are showing the way we are mentoring; we are imparting knowledge and wisdom. But sometimes it comes out as authoritarian. Yeah, leadership my way or the highway, right? Yes, I’m the only one that can have the right answers here. Yeah, so you’re getting to just the crux of the essential ingredient for being an empathetic leader, which is the ability to be curious and actively listen. Because people will tell you what their perspective is, they will tell you what their experience is, if they know you’re listening, and if you’ve built up sufficient trust for them to feel it’s okay to share that.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  17:39

What the thing is, there’s no way to build that trust without listening. Alright, that’s the gateway, the minute you really show people that you are listening to them, it transforms the way that they come to you. You know, because on a spiritual level, listening creates a vortex that sucks their voice into you, right? I would say to people all the time, there is nothing more important to a voice than being heard. So, if I come into the room with listening, I come into I come into the room with some serious attraction. Right? People are highly attracted to me, because I listened to people on a regular basis. And I’ve you know, I’ve got a lot of billable hours of listening to people. So So I have a I have strong muscle. Now, what did I didn’t have any muscle at all.

Maria Ross  18:26

Right. And I love this idea of a talking diet. Like I think every leader who’s having challenges with their team needs to look at that as maybe an intervention step. So, you know, with the work that you do around, you know, the very just, you know, simple mission of eradicating racism, right? 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  18:44

That’s simple. 

Maria Ross  18:44

That’s what I mean, being sarcastic. Like, that’s all you’re trying to do is just 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  18:50

Yeah sure, sure. 

Maria Ross  18:52

You know, that you talk a lot about creating human solidarity. And also, you know, this idea of what is our ultimate human need that we all share, regardless of religion, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, what is the ultimate human need that we all especially as leaders? 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  19:14

Right

Maria Ross  19:15

Understand that we need to help people fulfill?

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  19:18

Yes, the ultimate human need, from my experience from working with hundreds of 1000s of people is significance, right? And sometimes significant significance comes in the package of a job title, or position, connection, relationships, love, but it all it’s all doing the same thing. They want to matter. Yeah, it’s putting us in touch with the fact that we matter. We want to know that we matter. When you look at the level of energy and participation people put into their lives or into their work. It goes up the more that they know they matter. The less that they think they matter when they start doubting that they matter participation goes down. Authentic participation. People you know, we’ll find themselves in the workplace going through the motions all the time, but they call quiet quitting. Right? 

Maria Ross  20:04

Right. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  20:04

There’s a lot of people quietly quitting because they don’t know that they matter. And there are some employees, some employers that have not really made it their business to let their employees know that they matter for real, has been more of a like a show. You know, in authentic show, today, people are really reexamining how they’ve been living their lives. COVID put us in touch with how much we have neglected ourselves. So as people reengage the workplace, they are coming from a whole different place than they were before. So employers, leaders have to be more than bosses to people, they have to be more than bosses more than overseas, more than supervisors, they have to be people who are invested in the growth and development of people’s lives in a balanced way. Right. So, the job can’t be the only the top value in people’s lives. That’s the new that’s the new landscape, right?

Maria Ross  20:59

Well, I love that. And it gets to you know, when when you hear leaders being fed up with their teams, or saying like, well, they just they don’t get anything done, or they take so long to do all these things, or they just don’t seem engaged. It it’s not just thank you for doing your job. It’s, it’s more spiritual than that. It’s I need to know that it matters that I’m here that I’m contributing, that I work side by side with you, even when I mess up. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  21:29

All right. You know, what you’re saying is so, so, so true, Maria, what we have to come to realize as a leader is that you cannot pay people anything of equal value no matter how much it is to their life. Right. But we have quantify the worth of life by how much we pay people. And we have not really gotten present to the fact that what does it mean, if a person is at work 60 hours a week, 40 hours a week? How does that impact their family, their children, we have not thought about that. For years, this has been you know, the status quo. What so what we do, because work is our highest value, I’m not saying work is a bad thing. What I’m saying is now we have to put it into context, in the context of living a life, right? So how do you live a life if you always at work? We don’t end up not living a life. Right? So I tell people now, in my work as a life coach, and as a, you know, a practitioner of human solidarity, please don’t forget to live. Because this thing happens so quick. I remember when I was in my 20s and 30s. No one told me, look, by the time you hit 40, this thing will go so quick. Gonna be like what happened?

Maria Ross  22:41

It seems to accelerate after 40. Does it does? So you know, with all your work around anti-racism and D and I belonging create helping people create inclusive cultures, whether in their own community or in their workplace? What role does forming authentic human connection play in satisfying that ultimate need of significance? And if you are not someone who readily can make authentic connections, whether you feel it’s because you’re introverted, or because you, you know, had some past trauma? What role does that ability to create those authentic human connections play? And if that ability is not your strength? How do you advise leaders to still help satisfy their people’s ultimate need? 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  23:39

Oh that’s lot of stuff

Maria Ross  23:39

I mean that’s a big question. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  23:39

A lot, a lot of good stuff you asked? Where do I start with our stuff? Yeah. Well, I want to start with a clarification around authentic, right? Because I am, doing a lecture at Columbia University in New York. And I was working with a group of graduate students, and I was talking about authenticity. And they said to me, you know, all of them, like raise their hand at the same time. And they said, you know, to be honest with you, we really don’t know what authenticity is. Right? So a lot of people say, We want you to be authentic self, and we really don’t have a grasp on what does that mean.

Maria Ross  24:15

Right. Right. So also, we also think it’s an end state that looks the same for everybody. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  24:21

Exactly. 

Maria Ross  24:22

Actually, is I go on this rant all the time when I talk to clients about being an authentic brand. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  24:27

Right. 

Maria Ross  24:28

Whatever is authentic to you. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  24:30

Yes.

Maria Ross  24:31

It’s not a thing that everybody that’s authentic looks alike. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  24:36

Thank you for saying that. 

Maria Ross  24:37

I’m sorry. I just got so excited.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  24:39

Because that’s so true, because authentic is different in every moment. Right? Right. And we make authentic linear. We make it where we think is something as a way to be all the time, right? It is and it isn’t. Right? So, it’s a way to be spontaneous, unpredictable. Right? And all in, like in every moment in every moment of your life, if you being all in that what is being all in, feel like and look like, it looks like you accurately representing your own internal reality. Right. So that is our responsibility. Every human being is responsible, whether you are introvert or extrovert, you are responsible for the same thing. No one knows what is unfolding inside of you. So, it is your job to accurately represent what is unfolding inside of you. So, let’s say I have a desire, and that’s what makes us leaders. That’s the first thing and it makes us leaders, that we all leaders of our own life, because we are responsible for accurately representing ourselves, right? So now let’s let’s talk about what happens if I inaccurately represent myself? Right? Because we have this conversation often around racist.

Maria Ross  25:49

Well, or when I try to look like I have all the answers, or I try to look like I’m not scared or edge looks like I’ve got it all together.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  25:57

Yes, yes. When I show up as an imposter, right, right, because I think there’s some kind of way I’m supposed to be. That’s not who I am. In that moment, right. So, when I talk about the idea of, you know, you have to completely be willing to represent yourself, because if you’re not representing yourself, then what you have was doing what was going on is you’re not building authentic connections. Right? So here’s what happens. I call it the volcano syndrome. Every time you hold back, suppress what you really want to say about your inner reality, because you want because that’s the drive in us to represent it accurately. And every time we misrepresent it, what it does, it builds up resentment, we build up resentment inside ourselves. So it starts interfering with our connection with ourselves. And this, what happens is, it happens so often, then what I call mad day happens, where you can’t take it no more, you’ve suppressed yourself as much as you can. And you let it all out all at one time. It acts like a volcano, you spew all this hot lava on people.

Maria Ross  27:04

It’s a great analogy.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  27:05

You know and then what happens people back off from you. They really reserved about you. And in some cases, they want to get rid of you. And you try, you’re trying to figure out well, what did I do wrong? So what we tend to do is blame it on our authenticity,

Maria Ross  27:19

Right. Because it all came out at once. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  27:21

Right.

Maria Ross  27:21

You think oh, that’s what happens when I share who I am.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  27:24

Exactly. It’s not the authenticity is the fact that you’ve been practicing suppressing your authenticity.

Maria Ross  27:29

And now you just shocked people, because where did that come from?

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  27:33

Not only not only shocked, he’s what they shocked about, they thought the person you were being was real. They thought what you were sharing with them was accurate. And now they’re having to rethink what comes out of your mouth. So, every day that we practice, we show up in our imposter syndrome is a day that we wouldn’t have to give account for because the minute you come clean, people gonna stop making the connections about what you said before. So that’s the thing about inaccurately representing yourself, you have to keep up with those in misinformation, you got to keep up with it in your mind, it puts pressure on your mind, baggage. And you know, it’s my grandparents used to say all the time, if you tell one lie, you, you got to tell two you got to tell one for yourself and one for the other person. And what they meant was a lie cannot stand by itself. It needs other lies to support it. So, we keep embellishing versus just coming clean and makes it harder and harder. The more we embellish, the harder it is to come clean.

Maria Ross  28:36

You know, you are sparking this thing for me, I don’t even know what to call it, you know, just relating this to me with my own eight year old son. And just the times when I try to, you know, with good intention, I try to pretend I’m I’m calm in the moment and not he’s not getting to me. And I’m trying to get him to either, you know, tell me something or you know, like, especially when he lies frequently. You know what I’m trying to go ahead just tell me what bla bla and then when I lose it, and I go and the real the real emotion comes. You can tell on his face. He’s like, okay, so I know that that wasn’t genuine when she was trying to get me to tell her the truth or saying that I wouldn’t get in trouble or whatever the thing is, and you’re just like, you’re creating this parenting moment for me of like, that’s what it is he’s not connecting with with me being inauthentic instead of me just admitting I’m getting really frustrated right now. And I you know; I really want you to tell me this but you’re not and so I’m gonna walk away for a little bit and then when I come back like that’s authentic because that’s actually what I’m feeling in the moment. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  29:45

Like that connection.

Maria Ross  29:45

It’s not a big deal. Just tell mommy it’s okay. Like I won’t get upset. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  29:51

That’s not real. And there’s, there’s something about us. You know, we are spirit beings. First of all, you know, we are nothing but energy. And that energy connects naturally with other energy at a certain vibration, right? So, when we when we are not being authentic, that means the level of vibration that we are giving off, will not connect with someone who is who is real. So, the more real we are, you know, the more distance a person creates when they’re not being real, you, you almost like can feel it, you know, and children feel it more than anybody. They pick up on it.

Maria Ross  30:35

They are truth detectors, they’re […] detectors. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  30:38

Exactly.

Maria Ross  30:39

So how does this relate to? This is kind of a rogue a question for you, I tend to do that with my guests in the anti-racist work that you do. And in the DEI work that you do, how do you pull apart for people, when they’re really being authentic? Or they’re putting on a show of being an ally, because they know that they know that how they’re feeling isn’t what they should be communicating? And so, they’re, they’re putting on these inauthentic guys. Is that does that lead them to ultimately embrace that authentically? Or, you know, how do you help teams navigate that?

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  31:14

Well, I would say it is that, first of all, it’s a process. And part of the narrative that racism has given all of us, regardless of what our race is, is that we can’t show up as our authentic selves. That’s a that is our narrative across the board. So, what racism has cleverly done in our processing, it is made our authentic, our authentic self of the problem. Now, that’s, that’s deep. So, we are always working on changing ourselves, because racism has gotten us to believe that who we are, is not enough. So if you’re white, that’s not enough. If you’re a person of color, that’s not enough. We all are reexamining and critically examining who we are. And the we feel like the work is moving through the false examination that that racism has gotten us to do allow ourselves to really get in close to who we really are for real, right, and to be able to embrace our true self, and learn that it’s good enough, right? Because most of the conflict that we experienced in ourselves a struggle is coming from us being in conflict with ourselves, and us being afraid to articulate that to other people. Right. And there’s so much strength that comes from me being able to come clean to you about what I really what I really feel about myself first. Because I tell people this look honesty, it really is the best policy. But honesty is not about telling the truth, telling the truth about you. Honestly, it’s about telling my own truth. It’s about giving your accurate location about where you really are, what you really feel and think and owning it and taking responsibility for it yourself. A lot of people think in this work, anti-racism work, they always want to tell other people’s truth. There is no power in me telling your truth. Why you did this, then, you know, got my hand in your face, that there’s no power in it. But there is power that is restored in me if I step forward and say look, this is what I’m really feeling and thinking and I’m going to own that was essentially honestly puts the spotlight on you. I can’t be honest for you, and you can’t be honest for me. So honestly, has has a medicine as a spiritual medicine in it. That returns us to our power almost instantly. I’ve seen people in rooms, right big rooms of people, community people, and one person come clean. And it creates a I mean,

Maria Ross  33:41

Well, it opens it invites other people. They’re like, hey, it’s safe to do it, too. Yeah, I’m gonna do it too. Yeah. That is very cathartic. I think for me it is. You just need that one person to be brave and one person just open right?

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  33:55

It’s like Adam has been cracked open the atomic bomb right goes.

Maria Ross  33:59

That’s why if a leader can set the tone Yes, for that. I mean, I I’ll put a link in the show notes to a podcast I did early on with a leader Paul Mirabella, who was seen about leading during major crises. He was a CEO during 911. He was the CEO during the financial crash. He was a CEO during cocoa, right? All of these things and he said what he learned number one was what you started this interview talking about was how self-care helped sustain him that he couldn’t be Superman and he had to take care of himself and his family before he could be a good leader for his teams. And number two, the fact that vulnerability, I always talked about it as confident vulnerability. You can be confident in your vulnerability and not be just like a heaping mess of tears on the floor. I must genuinely feel but he was talking about the fact that when I started to share with my teams that I didn’t know I was scared to. I wasn’t sure how we were We’re gonna get through this, and just can’t lead from that place of like I’m admitting to you my vulnerability. He said it changed the dynamic of his team’s relating to each other and to him because he has the model as the leader made it. Okay? 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  35:15

Right. 

Maria Ross  35:15

You admit your honest truth […]

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  35:18

Maria, how can I be with you, or you be with me if I don’t give you my accurate location?

Maria Ross  35:20

 Right. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  35:25

And to me, that’s what vulnerable being vulnerable is. I’m telling you where I really am emotionally and mentally, which gives me the opportunity gives you the opportunity to be with me, it gives the people in your life an opportunity to be with you. I’ve worked with people in my coaching practice, who were married 20 something years, and they were so far apart from each other, because they didn’t practice giving the accurate location. So something comes up, they hide it from each other. And then they literally hide in each other’s face. You know, they think the person is right there next to him, but who they really are, is not next to their body is next to you, but who they are is not next to you.

Maria Ross  36:04

Such good stuff. You talk about human solidarity as the solution to ending racism, can you define for us what you mean by human solidarity? And why is that the solution,

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  36:16

I would say a human solidarity is authentic human connection, that solid, right, and that we have a practice amongst each other. authentic human connection is solid, well, we all are working to stay to stay current. So when I show up, I show up as myself, I’m not showing up as an imposter. I’m being as current as I possibly can, so that you can know me and I can know you. And then what we find out is that we have so many similarities, right? And then we have differences. And those differences are strengths, they are not threats, because when racism has gotten us to think is that those differences are threats, when we don’t realize that we are living in the same world. And if we really saw the truth about people’s differences, and saw the strengths, and what we can really do with all the difference that we have in this country, right? We have, we have so many beautiful, unique expressions, that if we opened the door to the possibility of, you know, doing something different than what we always do, right, and having that, that convergent thinking, well, we always gone to the same thing all the time, and try some divergent thinking opened the door to some some diversity for real, right, you know, not just use the word but really open the door to what that looks like. I mean, we could be totally effective. We could transform everything.

Maria Ross  37:41

Well, I mean, the research out there, we’ve we’ve spoken about this on several shows, too. It’s the data is there that when you have a diverse executive team, a diverse leadership team, you make better, more profitable business decisions, because you’re not all caught in making the same mistake you’ve got, you’re looking at the picture from different angles, and you’re considering all the options before you make a decision. And you might consider an option that no one else in the room thought of or avoid a risk. No one else in the room saw coming. Yes. And so you know, the more we the reason I wrote the empathy edge was to give the business case for empathy to skeptics to say it actually look at how it improves the bottom line. Now, my heart and my soul just want us to be in a more empathetic world, right. But if we can meet skeptics where they are, and convince them to give it a try. So it’s the same thing. I’m like, I’m trying to you know, as much as I can get that data and that research out there that diverse thinking makes better decisions.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  38:44

Yes, definitely. 

Maria Ross  38:46

I mean, fear it. We don’t want to be surrounded by Yes, people, you know,

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  38:51

We’d get past get pass or out of our ego, right. And I talk about that a lot in our work about having an assigned ego. So through socialization, indirectly, we are all assigned an ego. It’s something that we heard in our childhood growing up, either from our parents all from school teacher from somewhere in society, that we latched on and start trying to thought that being that person, that personality, would get us what we need in this world, right? What get us up a leg up in the world. And so we take that personality on, and it’s not until maybe 30 or 40 years down the road, we realize this is not who I am. This is what the world gave me to be. Right. 

Maria Ross  39:38

Right. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  39:39

And so a lot of leaders operating from that place. Right? Supposed to ensure I’m supposed to do this.

Maria Ross  39:48

These were the rules. I was taught how I got to be successful. Yes, I say this all the time about us having empathy for leaders, especially in this new world of work, this future of work where we do We do want people to bring their whole selves, we do want them to bring emotion, we do want them to bring vulnerability. If we’re being empathetic about the more seasoned leaders, that’s a big paradigm shift for them. And they’re like, but wait a minute, for 30 years, you were telling me I had to be this way at work. And now all of a sudden, you know, Gen Z comes along, and now I have to change, right? And I think that empathy goes both ways of like, yes, they still need to change. But be empathetic at the fact that that’s a big change. They can’t change on a dime. And interestingly enough, I don’t know if you’ve found this in your work. I had an interview with another DEI expert. My heart who goes by heart, he runs the heart learning group out of DC. And he he talked about the fact that sometimes it’s the hardest for him and even him as a black man practicing as a DEI professional. He said sometimes my the biggest, most obstinate the most obstinate leaders are actually sometimes the leaders of color. Oh, that’s because he said, because now I’m telling them to change all the rules that they like you said their assigned ego had ascribed to for years. Yes, yes. He said, versus being a little bit more agile and flexible, like the younger generations are. So, it was it was a fascinating conversation. He said, sometimes, that’s where I have the biggest barrier.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  41:23

Well, I would, I would agree to that. And I would say that what I had to wake up to as a leader in this in this field, was that nobody grows in your face. And everybody deserves to have the risk, the respect and the space to grow. None of us who are doing this work got to where we are overnight, we all saw ourselves grow and go through challenges away from everybody else. So people didn’t get a chance to see the messy stuff that we experienced in our lives. Right, right. Because then we’d show up in front of the audience. And we clean up really well, in front of audiences, everybody think we have it all together. But people don’t know the story behind like, I tell people all the time you go see a movie, and you don’t realize it took five years to to put this movie together. And if you saw the steps and stages it took to put it together, you would understand more about the reality of your own life. But well, we are always presenting a movie. So we’re like, we’re going to do this presentation, Lights, Camera Action. And the person you’re seeing is not the person that it’s not the whole person. Because we we got to learn to be able to express ourselves in a way where we’re being vulnerable, as you talked about, right? So that’s, that’s a big thing. Because we right now, we all been asked by the universe to make some shifts. Yeah, I’m at the sole focus group, we say, number one, we honor mistakes. Mistakes are have high value in our company. Because we want people to feel it’s okay to come to our workshops, and make mistakes. Right? We are not afraid of your mistakes, right? We have been trained, though, through our socialization, to not only be afraid of it, but to attack a person for the mistakes they make. Right. And so, we’ve transformed that totally, because we want people to feel like, we want to embrace your growth, we want to we want to be supportive of your growth, because we know that where you starting at, it’s not going to be where you end up. But but the thing I was ready to tell you was some time ago, I had this big epiphany around this right in the epiphany was when I was in my early 20s. I read a psychology book that said a whole bunch of things. But there was one line that stuck out to me for all these years. And the Lion said, it is next to impossible to get someone to believe what they don’t want to believe. And I was like, oh shit, right? That’s huge. Because racism is a belief system. Yeah. So how do you change a belief, you can’t force someone to believe something they don’t want to believe it is the power left up to that person to choose to believe something different. So when I got that, for real, I stopped bringing to the idea that we are sharing our perspective. I’m not trying to change what you believe I want but I want you to see my perspective. And I’m willing to see yours too. Because what this conversation has been missing is us being able to share each other’s perspective without attacking each other. We are so afraid that if we listen to the other person’s perspective, it may change us

Maria Ross  44:37

Right or we’re condoning it. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  44:39

Exactly. 

Maria Ross  44:40

Yeah. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  44:41

They’re just listening to it, you know. So, we could just listen to each other’s perspective. And then we all still have the power as adult learners to choose to believe or not believe. Because racism is not afraid of evidence. Racism is not afraid of the truth. And it’s not afraid of proof. You could bring all All those things because racism exists in the realm of belief in the realm of belief. It’s not about,

Maria Ross  45:04

Right. It’s like religion.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  45:06

Exactly. All the truth you want, you could say all of the, all of that you could provide all the evidence, and we’ve done it for years. And it’s not going to move a person, if they are in a place of believing it. Because racism says, I don’t care if you for me or against me as long as you believe in me. Because even those who are against racism, believe it helped to keep it alive. Our belief in it keeps it alive.

Maria Ross  45:31

That you know that that concept was brought up during the pandemic for people trying to figure out how to reach people who were her who were anti-vaccine. And the whole point what they, you know, they came around to was like, throwing more facts at them is not going to change their hearts and minds don’t move, don’t move. It’s about listening. It’s about sharing stories. It’s about maybe getting them curious enough to to seek out a different alternative to the narrative they’ve been telling themselves. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  46:02

Yes. When are people most likely to make a change in the scope of a relationship with someone else?

Maria Ross  46:10

Someone they trust. 

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  46:12

Exactly right. When people, that’s when we all you know, somebody comes into our lives, and they become this, this this, this force that demonstrates that they care about us beyond what we thought was possible. And we almost immediately start feeling a need to grow. You get I’m saying almost immediately, but happens in the scope of relationships. That’s why we say human solidarity is about human connection, authentic human connection, that solid because in connection, we influence each other, and we grow in a more healthy way than outside that connection.

Maria Ross  46:48

So much good stuff, how, what is soul focused group doing to further this movement? You deliver workshops, do you go into companies,

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  46:57

we deliver workshops, we go into companies, we do keynotes, we, we meet with anybody we can be with, because we realize that people have become so accustomed to fighting. Right? So, we say creating is the new fighting, right? Because we don’t want to say that fighting is wrong, because it has its place. But when you fight all the time, at the end of the day, you have nothing to show for the fighting, right, because the fighting is a destructive energy, you tearing something down, but you’re not creating something. So we say let’s replace fighting with creating, we are working to create human solidarity. And we do it through these workshops, these lectures, podcasts, you know, coaching sessions, you know, we meet people where they are.

Maria Ross  47:43

Right. And basically any group can come to you if they want to have some sort of facilitated session, whether it’s a workplace group or community group, or school group.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  47:53

It is all of it, we have, we have all of it. We have diverse leaders from different backgrounds, we’ve worked with, you know, in different disciplines that are capable of bringing this conversation in a way that’s really heartfelt, connecting, and respectful, right? We don’t we don’t shame people, right? When we feel people feel guilty, we are not trying to change anyone, we actually trying to get you to be more of yourself. And we’re saying racism has done a good job of moving us away from who we really are. And we need to move back to who we really are. So that we can really see ourselves and and see each other. You know.

Maria Ross  48:33

I love it. I love it. Mahdi, this has been such a great conversation. I know we get in a few different directions, but I love it. And I love the work that you’re doing with so,

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  48:43

Thank you so much Maria. 

Maria Ross  48:44

We need more of that I can I can think of like five different places you guys need to get in and facilitate. But for you know, we’ll have all your links in the show notes so people can connect with you and find out more about your work. But for those on the go, where’s a good place that they can check out your work.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  49:02

Where they go to our website, soulfocusedgroup.com And check us out we have we’re getting ready to launch a new website. We you know, we’ve retooled our toolboxes and we were excited about it. So soul focused group.com

Maria Ross  49:18

Check that soul focused F O C U S E D group.com. Mahdi, thank you so much for this conversation and for sharing your insights and I just really, really support your work.

 Berwick Mahdi Davenport  49:32

Thank you so much. I appreciate you.

Maria Ross  49:33

And thank you everyone for listening to another great guest on the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, please share it with a friend or colleague. Don’t forget to rate and review. And as ever, always remember our mantra, cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

Great leaders are self-aware about their own strengths and encourage their teams to be as well. They harmonize everyone’s strengths, including their own, so folks know when to lean in or rely on others.  These leaders actively leverage strengths to achieve high performance, but it starts with being willing and curious about your strengths.

Today, Brandon Miller and I talk about the GALLUP Clifton Strengths Finder – and I share a little about my results from 2016, and how they led to researching and writing The Empathy Edge! Brandon shares why you as a leader should care about strengths-based development, and the role emotional intelligence plays in it. We discuss the strength of empathy and how it influences organizational outcomes. And Brandon tells us about times when he’s had to recommend decision makers use empathy to support their teams. We even talk about the shadow sides of some of the strengths. It’s a fascinating discussion all you leaders and aspiring leaders will just love – and Brandon has a very special offer for all of you at the end, so stay tuned.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• Emotional intelligence, at its core, is thinking with our frontal lobe. It’s just thinking logically, carefully and, at times, slowly, through situations.
• The strength of empathy and the dictionary definition of empathy are not the same thing. Even if you do not have the strength of empathy, you can be empathetic.
• Utilizing the strengths finder will allow your team to have a common language to talk about your strengths.

“Any effective psychometric assessment gives the gift of self-awareness. I get to know myself and my best place, my worst place, and everything in the middle. If I can get to the point where I know myself that way, without judgment, I have climbed the ladder of emotional intelligence.”

—  Brandon Miller

About Brandon Miller, Author, Certified Strengths Coach, CEO

Brandon Miller is one of the FIRST 7 Certified GALLUP Clifton Strengths Finder Coaches in the world. Over 15 years ago, he was a very early practitioner of Clifton StrengthsFinder using it as the Executive Leader for a non-profit organization. He has since coached hundreds of leaders to find and leverage their strengths for themselves and their teams. He is the CEO of 34 Strong, a coaching and consulting firm dedicated to improving employee engagement. He has nearly 15 years of experience providing specialized leadership training, coaching, advising, and facilitating.

Brandon is also the Co-Founder of Incredible Family, a consulting agency that educates, empowers, and encourages working parents to take a strengths-based approach to parenting in order to unlock their best selves and raise strong, happy children and teens. He and his wife Analyn Miller are successful business owners, parents to seven children, and authors of Play To Their Strengths and Incredible Parent.

Brandon’s Special Offer!

If you’re interested in taking the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment for FREE to learn more about your strengths, please email Brandon at brandon@34strong.com for complimentary test access.

Connect with Brandon Miller:

34Strong: https://34strong.com/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/brandon34strong

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-miller-873a6bb/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/analynbrandon

Book: Play to Their Strengths by Analyn and Brandon Miller https://www.amazon.com/Play-Their-Strengths-Approach-Parenting/dp/0736976175

Book: Incredible Parent by Analyn and Brandon Miller

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Great leaders are self-aware about their own strengths and encourage their teams to be as well. They harmonize everyone’s strengths including their own, so folks know when to lean in or rely on others. These leaders actively leverage strength to achieve high performance. But it starts with being willing and curious about your strengths. My guest today is Brandon Miller, author certified strengths coach and CEO of 34 Strong, a coaching and consulting firm dedicated to improving employee engagement. Brandon is one of the first seven certified Gallup Clifton Strengths Finder coaches in the world. Over 15 years ago, he was a very early practitioner of Clifton Strengths Finder, using it as the executive leader for a nonprofit organization. He has since coached hundreds of leaders to find and leverage their strengths for themselves and their teams. Today, Brandon and I talk about the Gallup Clifton Strengths Finder, in case you don’t know what it is, and I share a little about my results from 2016. And how they lead to researching and writing the empathy edge. Brandon shares why you as a leader should care about strengths-based development, and the role emotional intelligence plays in it. We discuss the strength of empathy, and how it influences organizational outcomes. And Brandon tells us about the times when he’s had to recommend decision makers use empathy to support their teams. We even talk about the shadow sides of some of the strengths, a fascinating discussion that all you leaders and aspiring leaders will just love. And Brandon has a very special offer for all of you at the end. So, stay tuned. 

Maria Ross  03:17

Welcome to the show, Brandon Miller, thanks for being on the empathy edge.

 Brandon Miller  03:22

Thank you, Maria. It’s great to be here today.

Maria Ross  03:25

I’m excited to have this talk with you about strengths and the role of empathy. And we were just talking before we started recording that you are one of the first seven certified Gallup Clifton Strengths Finder coaches in the world. And it was a Strengths Finder assessment. That led me down my path to writing the empathy edge. And now doing this podcast because empathy showed up, shockingly to me in one of as my one of my top five strengths. So yay, to the strength’s finder. 

 Brandon Miller  03:59

Yay

Maria Ross  04:01

So, tell us a little bit about your story and your work.

 Brandon Miller  04:04

Sure. So, I learned about Strengths Finder. In a fun way. I was sitting at my desk one day, and I was a leader in an organization more of a middle type manager. And one of the executives came in and he said, Hey, I found this book in the airport. And I think we should do this, which was always code for you should do this. Yeah. And so, I grabbed the book, and it says, Now discover your strengths. And I thought, huh, how interesting. And so, I tore into it. And I quickly found out that if once you read through the introduction, there’s like this little tear out at the back. So, I didn’t read it all, just jumped to the back, grabbed the tear out, went online and took this assessment. And I gotta tell you, I got these results back these words and as I’m reading the descriptions, I’m literally saying to myself, did somebody follow me? Like did somebody like crawl into my head because I had never used the word maximum Laser arranger activator as words that I would say describe me. But these were so accurate and so detailed. So I, I was hooked, I thought, oh my gosh, this is awesome. And then I was invited to a half day training. And the training was essentially someone connected to our organization that had had a training from Gallup directly. And this was at a time before certification was even an option as a portable certification. So, I got to go to the class and sit in be a fly on the wall, get all the data. And so then we had our whole team in the organization take it, and I got to be the one to talk about all the results. And as soon as I don’t know that three month period was over, I just said, I, this is what I want to do just want to do for a living. I want to talk to people about their strengths. I want to help position them to do what they do best every day. Because why would we want to spend so much time talking about what’s wrong with you? This makes no sense. And that that does play into me being a maximizer. That is that that’s just a part of who I am. Naturally, I’ve learned. And and so then that blossomed into a business.

Maria Ross  06:06

So, tell folks who are not familiar with the strength’s finder give us a 32nd description of what it is because we’re both throwing throwing on terms that people are familiar with. So just quickly

 Brandon Miller  06:17

Thank you.

Maria Ross  06:17

Recap it for us

 Brandon Miller  06:18

Thank you. Thank you. So, for those listening, this Clifton Strengths was developed by a gentleman named Dr. Donald Clifton. So, it’s been called Strengths Finder. And then some years back, they rebranded to Clifton Strengths for his legacy. And Dr. Donald Clifton, in his graduate studies, and this was around the 1950s. So, he had just come back from World War Two was in his doctorate program for psychology. And he had he had a burning question. His question was, why is it everywhere I turned, every book I read, seems to be focused on human disease and neurosis. And his question was, where are all the books that tell us what’s right with people? Where’s all the research around human greatness and talent? And so that was it. The that was the flip that switched in his mind. And that was going to be his life’s work is dedication to understanding human excellence. And so, he went on the greatest talent search in the history of talent searches, 2 million people worldwide were surveyed. And it wasn’t just random, it was people known to be really strong, standout performers. And then they would try to understand what is it that they did that helped them to be successful, and they work backwards. And they understood those to be talents, simple patterns of behavior that could be productively applied. And from that they built what today is a psychometric assessment, I’m leaving out a lot of the math and a lot of the detail, but they boiled it down to 34. Clifton Strengths are strengths. And when a person takes this assessment, they can be ranked in order from their most intense strength number one, to their least intense strength number 34. And it’s wonderfully comprehensive list of what is it that you do great, but also, some areas to know, this is probably not for me, it’s not an area that I thrive in probably need a partner here, probably this system gives that kind of insight.

Maria Ross  08:13

Yeah. And what I love about it is it’s really great for groups, because it’s really understanding group dynamics, and the ability to collaborate and why certain groups, you know, just perform an innovate and do all the things and other groups are just a train wreck. And when you realize that maybe you have too much of one strength in a given group, or you’ve got these untapped strengths in a group that you’re not leveraging, right, because of the strengths of other people crowding that out, you know, so it’s really under I love it’s just understanding like, the makeup and the psychology of what everybody’s bringing to the party. That’s right. And it’s like the best kind of horoscope you could ever you could ever get. Because I you know, you’re so right, it does tell you things that you’re like, Hmm, I never would have you know, if asked what my strengths were, those would not be you know, one of mine was Winning Others Over. Whoo. Right. And I never would have described it that way. Or even that wouldn’t have been like my top of mine thing. If I was being asked by someone what my strengths are. What I love about the strengths finder is it uncovers these things. And then you start to look back at your career and your successes and your challenges. And you realize where those strengths were present the entire time, you just didn’t know what they were called.

 Brandon Miller  09:31

Yeah. Was a fan favorite. So every room we go into the train, we got to know the whoo

Maria Ross  09:37

Whoo I love it. And wait for the Whoo. Well, that is incredible. And it does explain for everyone the meaning of your company name 34 strong. So, let’s get into it. What role does emotional intelligence play in strengths-based development? Because that’s the thing where people fall back on like, oh, emotional intelligence is just not My strength or empathy is just not my strength. And they I kind of find they use it as an excuse not to develop that skill. True, what do you find is the role of emotional intelligence when you’re trying to assess your strengths.

 Brandon Miller  10:12

So, I think the greatest gift that StrengthsFinder gives to the world is a very neutral vocabulary that one might use to describe themselves. And it gives you insights into where your greatest strengths probably lie, but also where your greatest liabilities potentially lie. And I think any psychometric assessment that is effective, gives with it the gift of self-awareness, I get to know who I am, I get to know who I’m not, I get to know myself and my best place, probably my worst place and everything in the middle. And if I can get to the point where I can know me that way, without judgment, I have climbed the ladder of emotional intelligence, I am, I am now able to look at myself objectively, which allows me to then look at you in that way, as well, I’m developing, you’re developing, we can have compassion on each other for the journey. Because progress always, always is going to be more measurable and more important than perfection. And in the in the, in the world we live in where comparison is so deep, so built in with so much exposure to so many sources, I think the gift of allowing yourself to be who you are, and grow into the greatness that is within you, is a fantastic way that this really connects to emotional intelligence. And we were talking about this a lot, because we think that for leaders in particular, the one skill, they share that and it’s the only one in fact, this was uncovered in some of gallops work with Dr. Donald Clifton as well. The only trait shared that successful leaders have is self-awareness. It’s the only one, you could have all kinds of ways to get to success and leadership. That’s the one. And it’s the one I think that we all have equal opportunity to invest in and grow.

Maria Ross  12:12

I love that so much. And so much of my work and even other guests I’ve had on the show, we always start from that place of if you want to be a good leader, it’s actually the internal work the inside job you need to work on first. It’s not what more can I do or get out of my people. In order to be a better leader, it’s got to start with that self-awareness, that humility, that ability to say, here’s what I’m good at, here’s where I need to shore up those skills, and also where I need to practice emotional intelligence, so that I can be that empathetic leader and I won’t take everything defensively, I won’t every different point of view as an attack. Only leaders that have that presence and that emotional regulation, are able to see different ideas and new points of view for the value that they they offer. And not as just like, Well, that didn’t come from me. So, you know, it’s not a valid idea,

 Brandon Miller  13:09

Right. I think because this paradigm lives in the positive psychology space. It’s what causes it to be so attractive to teams. Because the idea that, Oh, we’re going to talk about what’s right with all of us, we’re going to build on our strengths. We’re going to move away from focusing on my inadequacies, my weaknesses, that’s a break. Can we do that more often? Yeah. And that’s, and that’s the draw. Right? And I’ll Gallup did is they made the business case for it. They just simply showed, hey, guess what, when you talk to people in a positive way more about what’s right, and what’s wrong with them? Crazy thing, they like you more, they trust you, right, you work harder, they stay engaged with you at work, it’s good business. And I think that’s, that’s the beautiful part of this is that as leaders grow in their emotional intelligence, to where they can start to see the benefits, so recognizing this actually works for me, but it works for me in such a beautiful way because I’m, I’m helping this person to engage, and I’m probably impacting their personal life outside of work are impacting the friend and the parent in the in the child and the human being they are outside of work, I get to do both.

Maria Ross  14:20

Right. Right. And like you said, you know, it’s refreshing to think about what we’re doing right versus what we’re doing wrong. Let’s talk about situations that you’ve encountered. We talked a little bit about empathy being one of the traits that’s in the strength’s finder. And can you give us a definition from the strengths finder of what it means when it says one of your top strengths is empathy?

 Brandon Miller  14:45

Sure. So, is really important to mention disclaimer, that that the 34 Clifton Strengths are an intact vocabulary. So, the strength of empathy isn’t the dictionary definition of empathy. And that’s important because people can be empathetic, who do not have the strength of empathy. So they meaning I like to tell people, I’ve met leaders and empathy is number 34 out of 34. And, and I have to reassure them, this assessment did not call you a sociopath, I promise It didn’t do that, hopefully,

Maria Ross  15:23

I think, yeah,

 Brandon Miller  15:25

let’s both hope, meaning, if empathy textbook is I can put myself in your shoes, I can feel what you’re feeling. And out of my compassion, I can take action I can do I can say I can give, I can share. All of us, every human can do that, differentiating that to the strength of empathy. So these are people that can sense the feelings of others without asking or even being invited to it, they can pick up on the nuanced behaviors of people in their sphere that they know and others they don’t, or just the general mood of the room. And paths have the ability to leverage that knowledge to build trust, create intimacy, open doors, thoughtful listening, some of the best listeners, I know are very high in empathy. And they’re very good at tuning in. One of the other parts of that strength is mirrored neurons. So the ability to listen with their heart, and to mirror back, the posture, the tone, even sometimes the rhythm, the Keydets in such a respectful, soothing way that the listener knows I’m being being thought of here. So that, that it’s such a broad, beautiful strength, it when we think about one group in particular, we work with is in the medical field, many nurses, high empathy, many of them, and what they share is that this drink is so cute at times that they’ve actually had to learn how to turn it down. Because it flows so strong, they’ve had to learn how to turn it down. So, they’re not over internalizing,

Maria Ross  17:01

Right. And they have to set boundaries very clearly. Otherwise, they lose themselves and

 Brandon Miller  17:07

Or exhaust themselves, right, or it’s it because it’s literally, I knew my children at different stages. One of them in junior high had a friend, and my daughter said, Gosh, she cries all the time. And we would go I wonder why. And she goes, she doesn’t know. And so, she got over, I was so curious, I bet this kid is really high in empathy. Sure enough, just really in tune to sadness and happiness. And the moments that make not all the way sure how to filter him yet not always sure how to know when it’s me when it’s not me. And then that’s how the strength is grown the talent, the recurring pattern of of that ability to pick up nuanced behaviors, tone, posture, movements, is something that happens raw, but as it’s grown, wow, has such powerful use as a strength for effectiveness in human human development, human relationships.

Maria Ross  18:03

It really does. And we’ve talked a lot on this show about the fact that, you know, Curiosity is the number one trait of empathic people. And, you know, if you are, if you are a leader at work, who is curious about, you know, you’ve got a growth mindset, you’re curious about how things are done, you’re curious about how people are feeling you’re curious about what motivates individually, each of the members of your team? Yeah, you know, I would be willing to bet that you if you are a curious leader, you probably have some empathy and you some empathy, strength, some empathy, talent, because I think that’s really about getting outside yourself, and being willing to be curious about someone else’s experience or point of view or idea or how something is done. You know, when we lack that curiosity, we don’t even engage, we think we have all the answers inside of us. That’s right. So, I love that. What situations have you had where you’ve had to recommend decision makers use empathy to support their teams? What’s one of the processes you’ve shared with them to achieve a healthy emotional intelligence? I bet that’s the million-dollar question. Everybody listening wants to know.

 Brandon Miller  19:12

Well, I think there’s a couple really important points in the first one is a watch out. So, we encourage leaders to be very aware of when they move to frustration, start to have a sensitivity and awareness of what brings you to frustration, 

Maria Ross  19:29

What triggers you, yeah. 

 Brandon Miller  19:31

What’s the doorway before anger, what moves you there? And sometimes it’s a trigger other times it’s because you didn’t have breakfast? Like, what is it? What is it that that causes? Because frustration in the space of curiosity that you’re describing can be turned to fascination? I wonder why I’m feeling this way. Wonder what’s happening here. And I can maintain objectivity because emotional intelligence at its core, is thinking with our frontal lobe. That’s just thinking logically and carefully and at times slowly through a situation so I can see the whole field. When we move out of EQ we move into to enforce. Yeah, very much. And now we’re reacting. And we’ve lost our creativity, we’re moving away. So, the first is a watch out, pay attention to those spaces, because it’s possible that what is moving you there isn’t that someone is doing something wrong. It’s they’re doing something different. And differences, when not understood can be annoyances, when well understood are advantages. And so high leaders that want to excel and empathy, really, as you said, very well, they become interested and curious. And I want to I want to know, in that discovery mode, what is it that helps move you on the on the more proactive side empaths. In You said this will also take a customized approach to human development. They recognize that a one size fit all that one approach is very ineffective. It’s good for establishing standards, such as human resource policies that we should all follow. Not great for coaching, not great for individualizing an approach to help people succeed. So, empaths have a an opportunity, because they they do naturally want to do that as a strength, those who don’t share that as a top strength, can learn how to ask, learn how to pay attention learn. As one point, we talked about learning styles, different ways that people are going to process and retain key word retain, just because you taught it doesn’t mean they got it. That’s not a given. Because some people have to get their hands on it, others need to just talk it out. Others just read the book and off they go, they can study it and go, Well, that’s three very different styles of learning and paths become attuned to that. What style works best, and how do I help you get there. And I’d say the last one is conflict resolution. And paths have an incredible ability, especially if they there’s a string called Harmony, especially if they also share this, they’re very good at seeing each person’s point of view, very good at it sensing where the frustration is, I can hear that in you, I can hear this in you let’s think about and look at and work through, where the where we’ve, we’ve lost, we’ve lost the intelligence side, we’ve lost the cognitive approach, we’re now at base emotional responses, let’s try to get up to where we can all see the field, understand where we’re all coming from. So, we can move forward with some level of intent and focus.

Maria Ross  22:44

So, much good advice to unpack in there. That’s wonderful. What would you say is the biggest hindrance you found in leaders, if you found it in leaders, being told they should strengthen their empathy? Maybe should is a bad word. But, you know, in this, has there been any rebuttal objection from leaders that you’ve heard about why they shouldn’t strengthen their empathy?

 Brandon Miller  23:13

So this is slightly in jest, but true, if, if the person is narcissistic, it’s very difficult, right? So if if I have to be right, if I if I, the same time, and just as strong cannot be wrong, I cannot be wrong. Empathy will elude. It will elude because that’s, that’s base, you know, impulse emotion. And it’s tough. So, ego leaders can struggle with empathy, because their filter runs back to self, it runs to self. So, leaders that need the cards to always fall in their favor, struggle with this idea, because to them, empathy equals weakness. It’s not a strength, it’s me somehow capitulating my power situation, and I don’t want to let go of my power. What I love to see in the working world today is we’re starting to see a dismantling of that erroneous paradigm that your power is not found, in the position that you hold the title you keep the the volume of your voice, the threats that you can make, that’s not where your power is. Your power is in followership. How many people line up gladly and willingly to follow you and not just because you Pam, but they they believe that they can trust you. They believe you care about them. They think that you’re a safe place. You’re a safe person, you create an environment that’s safe, and that you inspire them. You motivate them for their future and leaders who can see the power of that influence, have have great success on the lifetime journey of emotional intelligence that they see themselves on a sojourner on the road. This is a whole life journey, and I’m making progress As I go, and I’m okay when I’m wrong, and I’m okay when I’m right. And I can look at both without judgment and just keep advancing.

Maria Ross  25:06

Right. And we’ve seen examples of, of well-known leaders like Mark Cuban comes to mind, someone who admits that early in his career, he was not that guy. He was not about empathy. He was about just getting it done and being successful and, you know, take no prisoners. And he has sense, he has since seen what went wrong in those situations and where it actually impeded his success. And now, you know, it’s sort of like he’s turned over a new leaf, and said, you know, no, empathy actually is important for leaders. And to your point, you know, we talk a lot on the show about debunking the myths of empathy. Empathy is not being nice, it is not just doing what people ask you to do. That’s submission. That’s not empathy. And it’s also not agreeing with people. So, you can have, you can make really tough business decisions as a leader, but you can do them with empathy.

 Brandon Miller  25:59

You know, and it’s a great point, because there’s, there’s paradigms of leadership. So some leaders naturally start permissive, and some start authoritarian. And we all aim for authoritative or strengths based because that combines the right level of directive, the accountability piece with the human warmth, and building human connection. So, empaths, can at times start permissive they can, they can start more of the I want you to like me, not just follow me. And then other strengths can start more authoritarian, you’ll do what I say, Because I said so right? Well, both styles, as time goes by are not effective. They’re not authoritative leadership tries to combine both. And it’s a journey for many of us. And it requires a healthy dose of emotional intelligence to move there. Because even to operate in a strength space, I need to be able to look at you and see your potential and acknowledge that you’re not there. And it’s my job to help you get there. Well, that’s, that’s the work of the work, that’s the hardest thing to do as a leader is to help people grow and develop because you can’t do it for him, you do a lot of things for him can’t do that cannot grow for them. And so that influence and impact help them do that. An authoritative strength based approach, what it simply does, is it has me trying to sort through the things that keep you from that space, build trust with me that I really do want to help you get over here, and here’s better than there. So, if you’ll trust me, I’ll help you get to here. And that might be here as in still with me and accompany, or here in your next adventure beyond. But that’s my interest. And that’s when we can all, you know, think about the aspirational part of leadership is growing into those places.

Maria Ross  27:45

Well, and I think, you know, let’s not gloss over what you’re saying, also, as part of it, I see that you can get there is part of it, I’m going to show you that it’s possible, right, there is a motivating factor there, you know, you are not a lost cause. And you know, in some cases, the empathetic leadership play is to realize that someone’s in a role that might not be capitalizing on that person’s strengths, because nobody wants to come to work and fail every day either. And so, there’s also space for if I understand your strengths, and I understand your motivations, and I’m looking at this role you’re currently in that you’re flailing in, you know, a good leader can see why, and might be able to say, okay, maybe we need to put you in a different role. Maybe we, you know, whatever needs to be done.

 Brandon Miller  28:36

You know, I, I’ll share with you that in that paradigm, we do see that quite a bit. It’ll depend on economic realities, and how much people need a job. But people will sometimes say what they have to say, to get into a job and recruiters role here and repeat what they want to repeat to help people get the job, right. So, all of that plays in. And then you end up with folks. And this is the absolutely the broadest part of the market, that are taking jobs because they need to put food on their table. And they’re working in more of a blue collar or production or different spaces. And even in those cases, recognizing maybe you didn’t think about this job, when you thought about what you wanted to be when you grow up, but it’s respectable, and you can work hard. And I can respect you in the process and show you that I do care that you do a good job and find the parts of the job that you find more fulfilling than others and even then build into the strength of the role as much as on the professional side. I can even then look for places where this might not be a fit. Let’s talk about an off ramp that’s that that feels good to both of us. It’s not scary, who I’m letting you go. It’s let’s transition. Let’s help you move to another place.

Maria Ross  29:50

Well, and the thing I like about the StrengthsFinder too, is that it gives everyone a common language. So, you know if we if we as a team, all take the strengths Find her. That’s actually something that’s bonding us together. Yeah. And I know, you know, Brandon, there’s your Wu coming out again, you know, like I can we can even use it to defuse tension or conflict. If we understand, you know, we have that common language to talk about our strengths. Have you? Is there a story you can tell us about a team that was maybe like, the most transformative culture that you worked with? I mean, I’m sure you have many, but can you give us a before and after?

 Brandon Miller  30:29

Sure. So, we do a fair amount of our a fair amount of our work in the government space. And then we work in private sector, mostly mid-size, mid family, privately held businesses type situation. So government has some very difficult circumstances. And and what can occur is that people can get into positions for life, I mean, that they are in those positions, and they’re very well regarded at times protected. And so, a level of disengagement can set in that when we go to measure it, it just over indexes in the wrong way more disengagement than they do have engagement. So, we’ve come into a situation where on a scale of one to 100, ranking the team, they were a 1%, Team 1%. And the meaning we had, the best I had for this leader was well, we have nowhere to go but up. That’s the best for you today. And we’re going to start the climb right here. So, what what got us here isn’t going to get us there. So now let’s begin to really dig in. And to this leaders credit to this team. They really did. They really wanted to understand why their team was where they were and how they could engage us over the course of coaching and workshops and training and focus grouping and really, reshuffling how they approach leadership. Within two years, they went from 1% to 90%, top rate team, and they and they stood out because they’re this this this building that housed 1000s and 1000s, of civil servants. And this team was like a curiosity. Like, what in the world happened to these people? What did you put in their water? What what happened? 

Maria Ross  32:20

Exactly. This is what I’m always talking, I’m so excited, I’m gonna interrupt you. This is what I’m always talking about, about the fact that these these, the ability to create a micro culture of empathy and find success, doesn’t rely on your CEO making a mandate. If you start operating with empathy and succeeding, people are gonna go, Oh, I like the way Brandon operates. What’s he doing over there? What’s exactly what’s in the water over there. So, I love that this is a real life example of that.

 Brandon Miller  32:48

So, that leader went on to a higher level of influence, and was given the ability to take what had happened with their team to the entire department. And so now the entire department is endeavoring to to follow a path that worked with relative micro team compared to the department. And now that’s that’s what’s more, but it’s built upon proven success. This process works. It does take time. So for those that are, come on, how come it hasn’t happened? Because people don’t respond. That way. They didn’t get here fast. They’re not going to leave here fast. It takes time. And what they really want to know is Are you for real? Yeah, are you for real? Because empathy. Here’s here’s the, here’s the piece about empathy Empath leaders know that Empath followers sniff out BS like nobody’s business. And when you lead teams, and you will always have because empathy is a common strength out of the 34 empaths. will know are you snowballing this to look good? Or do you really intend for this to be our culture and we like to say if you can, if you can convince the empath, you have a chance Yeah, because if they believe you, yeah, and they can see through the veneer, but they believe you you can you can start to win over and you just got to pass the 50% market engagement once you get more people engaged in the not engaged. Now you’re running downhill with the wind at your back, you have momentum, and it’s all going to come down to believability, which as you and I know, Empath leaders are believable, because you actually like you think they genuinely are sincere about the change that they’re they’re initiating.

Maria Ross  34:27

Absolutely. Okay, I’m gonna throw you a curveball question just for fun. Do you ever look at famous leaders and try to guess what their strengths are on? Grindr? Sure. So, can you give us an example?

 Brandon Miller  34:38

Oh, sure. I used to look at President Obama. And I mean, what strikes you as he’s such a powerful speaker is oratory. I mean, just so well put together so in strengths language, I would say he has very high strategic is so fast on his feet so quick. You cannot catch him without a quip or a comment. He’s very good. Very good soundbite guy right very talented. But high communication has strengths to find it because he can weave it into a story. He can he can show emotion so I I used to watch him with on go wow, look at those strengths just work how quickly He’s spinning and moving, which I know politics is a lot of you got to gotta stay gotta stay nimble because they’re coming in all directions, right? And then I mean that respectfully, like you just, it’s just the way of the world that you gotta you gotta move. I was intrigued by that, with his adaptability do that.

Maria Ross  35:31

What about any business leaders that you know? 

 Brandon Miller  35:34

So, one who’s pasty jobs? We like to say that he’s the poster person for the strength of ideation. So, someone who could take, you know, this device 

Maria Ross  35:45

That was not a top strength for me. 

 Brandon Miller  35:48

Yeah. So, when I, when I look at, like this device, I’m not holding in my hand that I that that just it calls it it, you know, allows me to use it as computer respond to things it plays music, it does all these things. The person who envisioned this, it’s just it’s amazing. And that’s it. Ah, they don’t live in the confines of our way of thinking they’re always stretching us what’s next? And they add to tell Ada, it can’t be done is to challenge them, to show you all the ways that can to add to say, it’s just how we’ve always done it idea to like, oh, no, it isn’t no more. And so, ideation futuristic, is something that you can see what jobs because he was looking ahead, while while while just, I mean, literally, I did a training for a group at Tesla. And this group at Tesla, half of the room had come from Formula One, and the other half had come from Apple. It’s like, super tech geniuses, meet supercar geniuses. And it was so interesting to hear the stories about jobs, and then to hear the Formula One people and then it talks about Elon Musk was like, wow, and just how they all interpolate and work together was pretty, pretty amazing.

Maria Ross  37:05

That’s cool. Is there any strength? On the strengths finder? I know they all have shadow sides. Because I know I when I worked with my strength coach, we talked a little bit about that. But is there any strength? And the answer could be no. That’s problematic.

 Brandon Miller  37:24

To an extent they all are in the context that would facilitate that. So, one of the strengths that I think has almost no problems at all is positivity. Right? They’re so good at taking a situation and finding hope in finding light and finding truth. And then there’s times where they just need to put that in their pocket. Because people need to mourn. And so instead of cheering up in that moment, just wait positivity. Let them mourn. Yeah, it’s okay to mourn. Sadness is a valid emotional.

Maria Ross  38:01

Right. We can let ourselves feel those things. We don’t have to gloss it over.

 Brandon Miller  38:05

Yeah, we can feel pain, you can feel sad. So so but but I tell many leaders like I can almost say that that little downside, at its amazing. Others are very much more polar. So, one of the really powerful strengths is command, just think of the word command. Yeah, so the strength of being direct and decisive and cutting through emotion and finding the clarion call to action. And you can think of all the places where that’s really helpful, and really necessary. And command can be horribly misunderstood. Because it can come across as pushy and bossy and brash. Oh, up to me caring. Yeah, absolutely. Because it’s an because it’s so strong in its approach. And this is why I think, when we look at the global landscape of strengths, command is very rare, less than 5% of people will have it were strictly positivity, much more common, many more of those you’re going to meet, probably for good reason. When you just think of, you know, how about, you know, all our genetics and how we all got here? Probably healthy. We don’t need as many of you, you know, you’re special. And we need you when we need you. Right? It would be that amazing command which I happen to be a top 10 command like know how that works, but also know when now the perception is turning on you now it’s not as

Maria Ross  39:35

effect now. It’s not helping you it’s hurting you.

 Brandon Miller  39:37

Every strength has that potential.

Maria Ross  39:39

Alright, so I know you as we wrap up, I know you have a special little surprise for our listeners. And can you tell us about it? Yeah, absolutely.

 Brandon Miller  39:47

So we like to give the gift of strengths. We’re in a position right now where we’re meeting different people through different opportunities. And we want to share with them the opportunity to learn their strengths. And so if someone reaches out to me at the information I shared with you. And in a message simply indicates, I’d like to learn my strengths, happy to provide it’s complimentary. And then if they would like additional conversation, they’d like to learn more. We’re happy to share that with them as well.

Maria Ross  40:17

Yeah, because normally you pay to take the StrengthsFinder. So, you’re offering it for free, correct, complimentary version. Great. Well, I will put Brendan’s Brendan’s email in the show notes. And you can email him directly at Brandon @34 strong.com. Again, I’ll put it in the show notes. If you’re interested in taking the strengths finder for yourself, and see where you land. And you’ll have to let me know where you’re where your strengths lie. So, Brandon, thank you so much. Where can folks other than the you know, I’m going to put all your links in the show notes, as we mentioned. But where can folks that are on the go find out more about you?

 Brandon Miller  40:51

Sure. LinkedIn is a great place. I’m on there quite a bit. 

Maria Ross  40:55

Great. 

 Brandon Miller  40:55

So, Brandon Miller 34strong. There’s only one of me.

Maria Ross  40:58

Awesome. And I have a personalized note to let him know that you heard him on the podcast. 

 Brandon Miller  41:03

Yeah, and I want to connect when we drop a lot of content. They’re very rich things that people use and seem to find enjoyable and happy to share.

Maria Ross  41:11

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was great talking to you.

 Brandon Miller  41:15

You as well. Thank you. 

Maria Ross  41:16

And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. Please share it with a friend or colleague. Don’t forget to rate and review those are important. And until next time, remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. 

It’s already time to make space in your exceedingly full schedule to plan your goals for next year. So why does this happen to us, every year? I propose it’s because we go about planning all wrong. We start with all the things we think we “should” want, rather than focus on what’s already going right and setting intentions into motion that not only get us where we want to go, but give us more ease, flow, and clarity.

Today,I share how you can set meaningful goals based on your values and some different ways you can look at planning for the new year. And how a new perspective  on asking the right question can lead to more joy, ease – and success. 

Happy holidays, in whatever way you celebrate and catch you in the new year. Thank you for being part of my community! 

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• Your values can support your goals, rather than being contorted to fit after the fact. 
• You can set meaningful goals for your business, just like you can for yourself, you just need to understand who you, as a company, want to be in the next year. 
• When you ask questions about how your employees and stakeholders feel about your organization, the goals that are made after that understanding will be supported by the understood culture and mission. 

“It is possible to holistically align our professional and personal goals for more joy, but only if they’re supported by asking the right questions.”

—  Maria Ross

References Mentioned:

Book: Who Do I Want to Become?

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Ah, it’s that time right? It’s already time to make space in your exceedingly full schedule to plan your goals for next year. Oh, we all know the tired new year goals language that’s supposed to inspire. Crush your New Year, live your best life ready to write your book or scale your business? Get that promotion have the perfect relationship become an activist, bake homemade cookies for your kids school? Not me. exercise more. I mean, I’m exhausted already from social media, aren’t you? So why does this happen to us every year? I propose it’s because we go about planning all wrong. We start with all the things we think we should want. Rather than focus on what’s already going right. And setting intentions into motion that not only get us where we want to go, but give us more ease, flow and clarity. And stay with me. I’m going to be talking about how this relates to business. This year, my good friend, women’s coach Jamie Greenwood and I did things a little differently. We decided to gather a small group of power women together business owners, execs, entrepreneurs, to articulate our values first, so that we can infuse them into our work and our business or professional brands. We split the retreat called nourish into two days, one in December, and one in February of next year. Because seriously, the new year only gets going in February if we’re being honest, one day to reflect on what went right this past year and where we shined or needed support, to articulate our values, and then another day to set goals and turn those values into action. And I’m sharing this because it’s not just beneficial for women to plan this way. It’s good for anyone who is human. See, it is possible to holistically align our professional and personal goals for more joy, but only if they’re supported by asking the right questions, questions other than how much money do you want to make this year. You can absolutely set goals for the new year that are achievable, joyful and more aligned with who you are deep at your core. But only if you give yourself or your organization, the time and space to reflect, recalibrate, reconnect and remember yourself without any need to maniacally jumpstart your year. my eight year old has a book called Who do I want to become? It was published by my amazing publishers page to up in Canada. And I think it should be required reading no matter what your age. Let me read you the description. A class project is due and Dylan is struggling with the question. What do you want to be when you grow up? Ultimately, he realizes that it is who you are that matters the most? Who do I want to become as a refreshing new take on a question as time and time again, one that invites us to discover something wonderful about ourselves, that has nothing to do with what you want to be and everything to do with who you are and who you want to be. So good, right? Wow. Who do you want to be as a colleague, a partner, a manager, a leader? Who do you want to be as a company? What impact do you want to leave? What will be your legacy? So instead of asking what you want to do next year, start with who do I or who do we want to be? Start with character. Start with values. spend more of your time thinking about that. So when it comes time to setting goals, you’re mapping them to how you want to live and can help you achieve becoming that person. Yes, you can even do this for your business. That’s what we’ve been talking about on this podcast, humanity and empathy and values. and compassion in business. Of course, you have to set growth and revenue goals. I’m not insane. But could you first articulate what type of culture you want, what values you hold dear, and how you want employees and other stakeholders to feel before you get into the tactics, set your growth and revenue goals in a way that support your values and character. Just try it. Humor me. See what questions get asked and goals turn up. If you work this way, instead of the way you’ve always done it. And watch how much your relationships with colleagues, partners, customers flourish as a result, which will ultimately help you reach and yes, perhaps exceed those revenue and growth goals. Your values can support your goals, rather than be contorted, to fit after the fact. Have a great holiday whatever you celebrate, and however you celebrate. Thank you for being here for listening, for sharing and for growing with me on this quest to live in a more empathetic world and bring more empathy to our work. Happy New Year, may we have peace in our world, may the hearts of every human be filled with empathy and compassion, rather than hate for each other. And may you stay healthy, happy and fulfilled. See you next year. 

We all know that when it comes to leadership and accomplishing a mission, the US Military is hard to beat. But we think we understand what that means – it’s actually not about cold commands or ranks and titles. If you want to become a more effective leader, then tune in! My guests, John Buford and Sean Georges, both former military leaders themselves, unpack the fundamentals of good leadership so you can be more effective.

Jonn and Sean view leadership as a real, human-centric responsibility, not a romanticized, mythical calling. Today we talk about what authentic leadership really means, why leadership doesn’t derive from power, and how to put people and a shared mission at the heart of your leadership model. They share how military leadership principles can lead to business success (and why some civilian leaders misunderstand what that means) and the important difference between leading and managing. We discuss the mistakes well-intentioned leaders make, and how to balance supporting your team and being human with strength, confidence, and excellence. Enjoy these practical and timeless leadership lessons.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• There is a responsibility of care and service that comes with real leadership. It’s not about demanding and ordering, it’s about serving with your team for the larger mission. 
• The best leaders don’t need to remind you that they outrank you; they serve you. Leadership doesn’t work the way an org chart looks. 
• Being a follower first will allow you to better understand and empathize with those you are later leading. 

“Real, authentic leadership is an upside-down world:  It’s you at the bottom, conceptually influencing from that place looking up at your teammates, in alignment with mission.”

—  John Buford

About John Buford, Ph.D., Co-founder, On Mission

John Buford served as a Marine Corps officer for more than 20 years, conducting operations overseas and teaching at officer training schools. After retiring from the Marines, John earned a doctoral degree in education (training and performance improvement specialization) and became a certified wilderness medicine instructor, college professor, and outdoor educator. He is the co-founder of On Mission Leadership, a certified leadership coach, professional wilderness guide, whitewater kayak/canoe and sea kayak instructor, human performance consultant, and board member of several nonprofit organizations.

About Sean Georges, J.D., LL.M., Co-Founder, On Mission

Servant Leader, retired General Counsel and SVP of Human Resources for a publicly traded retailer with 5,000 employees in 400 stores; Naval Academy Graduate and Marine Corps Officer and Judge Advocate; Law degrees from the University of Illinois and The Judge Advocate General’s School of the Army at the University of Virginia.

References Mentioned:

Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t by Simon Sinek

The Empathy Edge podcast interview with Val Ries: How to Be the Leader Everyone Wants to Work For

Connect with John and Sean:

Website: https://onmissionleaders.com

Book: On Mission: Your Journey to Authentic Leadership https://onmissionbook.com/ 

John Buford on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-john-buford-340b37a/ 

Sean Georges on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-georges-031b486/ 

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

We all know that when it comes to leadership and accomplishing a mission, the US military is hard to beat. But we think we understand what that means. It’s actually not about cold commands or ranks and titles. If you want to become a more effective leader than tune in my guests, both former military leaders themselves unpack the fundamentals of good leadership so you can be more effective. John Buford and Sean Georges are co founders of on mission leadership, providing coaching and speaking that equip and support leaders to succeed. They’re the co-authors of the new book on mission, your journey to authentic leadership. John Buford served as a Marine Corps officer for more than 20 years, conducting operations overseas, and teaching at Officer Training schools. After retiring from the Marines. John earned a doctoral degree in Education with a training and performance improvement specialization and became a certified wilderness medicine instructor, college professor and outdoor educator Sean Georges is a retired general counsel and SVP of human resources for a publicly traded retailer with 5000 employees and 400 stores. He’s also a Naval Academy graduate, and Marine Corps officer and Judge Advocate, John and Sean view leadership as a real human centric responsibility, not a romanticized mythical calling. Today we talk about what authentic leadership really means. Why leadership doesn’t derive from power, and how to put people and a shared mission at the heart of your leadership model. They share how military leadership principles can lead to business success, and why some civilian leaders misunderstand what that means. And the important difference between leading and managing. We discuss the mistakes well intentioned leaders make, and how to balance supporting your team and being human with strength, confidence and excellence. Enjoy these practical and timeless leadership lessons. 

Maria Ross  03:36

Welcome to the empathy edge. John Buford, Sean Georges. I am so excited to have you on here to talk about leadership and and what we can learn from the military. It’s almost counter intuitively about what makes effective leadership. So welcome to the show. You have both authored a wonderful book called on mission. And you also have co-founded an organization on mission leadership. So, tell us a little bit about your story.

 John Buford  04:05

Sure, I’ll start with that. Sean. It’s long, but I won’t make it started in third grade in small town and

 Sean Georges  04:17

As a tourist

Maria Ross  04:18

I love it.

 John Buford  04:18

Don’t don’t worry. I have a fast forward coming up here. Yeah, we were best friends in third grade in high school athletes together. And then both went in the Marine Corps in different ways shone through the Naval Academy through a public school, boot camp in public School, stayed in contact for years and years. And then oh, I don’t know a decade or two ago. They start blurring after a while. But we had this 20-year kind of email conversation about leadership and it grew and it grew and we tested each other when we questioned each other. And we started putting our thoughts down. And then one day, we kind of had an epiphany and said, “hey! let’s, let’s write a book”. We really think we have a message that could be useful to people. And it was more of a bucket list type of thing than marketing or business proposition. And it’s been a wonderful, wonderful journey. And we’re very happy with the, with the product that came out. That was fast.

Maria Ross  05:28

No, I love it. It’s the cliffnotes version. And then did you start on mission leadership before the book or after the book?

 John Buford  05:35

Concurrently, roughly, you know, if that was more of a business thing, you know, we we needed to an umbrella bucket to catch all the goings on of publishing and writing and website and marketing. And so yeah, we started kind of current concurrently with writing a book that I love.

 Sean Georges  05:56

No, I think this is Sean. I, I think that one of the, one of the real core reasons why we decided to write the book was really like John mentioned, to both gather, refine, and test our beliefs and concepts. And so you know, you even if hopefully, people will buy it, read it, apply it more importantly. But it was a you know, kind of a refining fire anytime you’ve got to. Okay, well, when I say leadership, what I mean by leadership, exactly, when I use the word authentic, what am I talking about? What’s the journey?

Maria Ross  06:39

Well, that’s a great segue, because that’s actually my first question for you is, what does it mean? What does it really mean to lead authentically, we hear that buzzword thrown around a lot. What does it mean to lead authentically and develop a shared purpose? What does that actually look like in practice?

 Sean Georges  06:56

Yeah, you know, one of the things that we really focused on in and we do, we try to walk the talk as well, but but as we were writing the book, and coming up with with core concepts, we were looking, we wanted to stay focused on the real thing. On the the end, so authentic, isn’t some kind of, we don’t have a trademark after it or anything fancy. It’s not, it is simply what we have observed in the course of our military careers, our civilian careers, which were very diverse kinds of experiences, and, you know, for profit, nonprofit, in the classroom outdoors, John, with his experience was that there that running across all of these experiences, and is something very real and true about, about both people who who lead, who lead in an authentic way, and, and what it means to lead authentically. And, you know, John, and I like to say, and we didn’t make this up, either. There’s nothing new under the sun when it comes to leadership. But there are these simple core, very real concepts, perspectives and principles. So authenticity is both who you are while as you are leading in your life, and also what it means to lead. The concept is simple. And it is about it is about influencing another human being with whom you share a mission. So, you’ve got some shared mission, some shared purpose to be working together, operating together. There’s something there. And so, it is a responsibility. You have to another person to influence them. And at the core of all of our experience, and all of our observation, all of our experience following which is an important School of leadership, and leading it has to do with relationship. You can you can influence another person’s actions, their commitment to that shared mission, through your relationship with them. And it’s not a warm and fuzzy thing. It is simple. It is about servant leadership, leading as a servant. So that’s the authentic that’s the heart and soul of what we found to be leadership in all the different environments.

Maria Ross  09:43

Well, and I would say to you know, because as a brand strategist, I talked about this a lot in terms of what is an authentic brand and it’s not this one thing, it’s not this one definition of authentic is whatever it is, whatever is true for you and your business. It just means you’re not putting on a facade? Yes. About authentic leadership, it’s really about leading with your strengths. Right? Well, you are with your style with your sense of humor with your, you know, vulnerability and not trying to pretend you’re something you’re not.

 Sean Georges  10:16

Yes, absolutely. And I think people have a hard time with that maybe because they’ve seen a lot of, you know, sort of posturing and puffing, and there’s gotta, you’ve got to look a certain way talk,

Maria Ross  10:29

To have all the answers, etc.

 John Buford  10:32

Yeah, smartest.

Maria Ross  10:34

Right, exactly. And I think you know, that’s, that’s also vulnerabilities also misunderstood, because it doesn’t mean you walk around not making any decisions and crying all the time. It just means when you know, you’re confident and those decisions, when you need to rely on others, you rely on others. And when you don’t know the answer, you say, I don’t know, but I’m going to find out.

 Sean Georges  10:54

That’s right. Exactly, we will find out right. And, you know, that’s, that’s the thing that I think people have a hard time with is, you know, it’s sort of an upside down real authentic leadership is kind of an upside-down world, it’s you at the bottom of conceptually influencing from that place, looking up at your teammates, in the in alignment with mission. So, your mission, your shared purpose is at the top, it’s always in a lot your line of sight. So, you’re not just walking around patting people on top of the head. Right? You are, you are finding ways from that place. And you’re asking a simple question. What is my best and highest role to serve this person? Or this team? In alignment with our shared mission? You are? That’s the mirror check question. Every authentic leader is asking them themselves. What’s my best and highest role to serve? In alignment with mission? When you get that now the answers right can depend on so many things. Yeah, depends on the nature of the mission, the readiness and capabilities of your teammates, your you know, knowledge, ability, competence, all that but if you always act from that place, that is kind of the heart and and soul of what it means to lead you’re you’re finding ways to influence your teammates in accomplishing something together.

Maria Ross  12:30

Well, and I think too, you know, people have a hard time making that jump from doing to leading, you know, it is it is a mental job, it’s, it’s your job is no longer to do the thing you used to do your job is to enable and empower others to do the things they need to do. So, your team succeeds, as you said, toward the mission. And where I see a lot of companies go wrong businesses go wrong, is either their mission is just some fluffy statement, they put about a poster on the wall that nobody actually takes to heart or understands what that looks like every day. Or they don’t they didn’t even articulate a mission. So, so I’m just in my own head thinking, this is why I’m here. My boss might be thinking something else; my colleague might be thinking something else. And nobody’s nobody’s running in the same direction.

 John Buford  13:18

One of the most powerful experiences I had was, I was facilitating executive leadership development program. It’s out in the wilderness is out in the woods. It was a extended wilderness expedition, we we were building a pretty complex rope bridge across her ravine. It was an initiative that these exists. They’re all type A personalities, all GMs. And they each had a task to do and every it was going nowhere. Quickly. Everybody was doing things on their own. Everybody was being an individual superstar, tying knots slinging slings, around trees, clipping carabiners, and nothing was getting done. Nobody was talking especially with each other and one of the one of the participants, a woman just stopped what she was doing, started looking around and watch her teammates, flailing for a while. And she finally got his attention and said, hey, hey, everybody stopped looking at her. She said, “what are we trying to accomplish here?” Amazing, not amazing, but but confirmatory the power of that question, but one person spoke up and said it was his honor to do it and another person, another person, and quickly a vision was seated and everybody agreed on collectively what they’re trying to accomplish. That’s all it took. And so, yeah, I agree, Marie. I mean, that is so critical for a leader to keep that mission is Shawn calls that mission alignment or Mission clarity, Mission awareness inside because we’re so busy producing widgets and balancing budgets and doing all this stuff we do in organizations, sometimes just what are we trying to accomplish here by Game Maker for?

Maria Ross  15:16

Well, and you know, from a brand perspective, when I work with with an AI, when I work with companies, we want to articulate a mission and a vision that’s meaningful, that actually will inform daily decisions. So you know, one of my favorite things to say is, can you ask yourselves if this meeting, or whatever decision you’re making in every meeting you have every day, is furthering the mission or detracting from the mission? And if you don’t do that, then you’re not living your mission.

 John Buford  15:44

We’re just as guilty of not doing things. We’re just as guilty of doing things that have nothing to do with a mission. That’s probably that’s probably worse. Yeah. Because Because doing stuff to, to what’s necessary for admission is usually is usually $1. You know, you, you’re gaining by getting there. But what happens is people get sidetracked by, okay, these processes creep in over time, this culture builds around this what we do, and sometimes that question is, why are we doing this? Right? Right? Nobody can answer. That’s probably the worst of the two evils is doing stuff that has nothing to do. 

Maria Ross  16:29

It’s distracting, right? It’s just, it’s just a waste of time and effort and resources. So, you know, you want everything you want, you know, everybody marching in the same direction, which actually kind of brings me to an interesting question for both of you with your military experience, because I know a lot of your leadership philosophies are grounded in what you learned in the military as well. There’s a, I think there’s a I would call it a fallacy in corporate leadership, where people think they’re adopting a military model, right? They think they’re adopting, I’m going to be a drill sergeant, even hear that phrase, I’m going to be a drill sergeant, right? Or people describe their boss as a drill sergeant. Right? And it’s a very, it’s very command and control. But is that the reality of military leadership? Because military leadership is so effective? And I have to imagine there’s more to the story.

 John Buford  17:18

So so let me kick let me kick that off, Sean, and I’ll let her go. So, command and control is absolutely important. But I think the where people get derailed is they confuse command and control with leadership. There are two different things command is absolutely imperative. It’s imperative. You know, authority is imperative in any organization, any team, right? Like you have to have a person […]

Maria Ross  17:42

You need to understand that roles, yeah. 

 John Buford  17:43

You’re right, and understand the roles and those type of things in organization. And you know, the way organizational relationships work in a way interpersonal relationships work are two different things. I think in the military, it’s the the rank structure is so ingrained is so important. It’s just taken for granted. And there’s where you get that kind of phrase, it’s popular right now, there’s been a book written about it, we mentioned ours leaders eat last is that’s where the power comes from in relationships is building that one on one, you know, relationship with people because the, the authority, the rank, the following awards, that’s, that’s very much a part of the efficiency. And just because of the nature of the work, it’s required, but the best leaders that we’ve known show I love you to, to build off this, the best leaders we’ve known, didn’t have to remind you, that they outright, right. They they serve, you.

 Sean Georges  18:47

know, that’s one of the phrases John and I come up with that are kind of looking back over combined 80 years of, of leadership and following experience is that leadership does not work the way an org chart looks. Org charts are designed really for management purposes. Your manage your your designating authority, you’re, you’re you’re, you know, certain spans of control, things like that. Management is about people leadership, or is about things, things processes, you know, systems. Leading leadership is about people. And one of the one of the biggest eye openers for for me about the military and, and leadership really can’t and this is after four years at the Naval Academy where, you know, you think you’re getting a it is a kind of a graduate degree and what it means to follow and to lead and what works, what doesn’t, but was at the basic school in Quantico was this phrase that was bouncing around and it was this kind of strange sort of little quip leaders eat last. Leaders eat last. What? What is that all about? Okay, well, I know where to stand. And when we go to the chow hall, I’m going to be last in line and you know, the the team, your Marines are going to be in front of you. So I’ve got that part. But it means everything, it means you are subordinating your needs, wants, your, you know, your ambitions, if you will, you can still be ambitious, but it is about your energy, your focus, your attention is on your team in the direction of mission. So, leaders eat last means everything, it means you are taking care of your people. First, I love the theme, you know, sort of the name of this podcast, empathy edge, that that requires humility, when you lead from that place. Empathy means you are keeping in mind and then focus what’s going on with your team. You know, the Marine Corps, just one of the most important things you need to do to lead in the Marines is to is to share the burden with your we don’t sit back and, and in the office when when, you know, we’ve got people out there doing hard work, you’re out there with them. Not micromanaging, but sharing the burden, and caring about their experience, not just theoretically, or it’s not a box you check. It is your their heart and soul, your heads there, you’re also thinking about mission, you’re thinking about your management responsibilities, right? But you’re thinking about the human beings. And that’s, that’s just part of the magic. So the reality in the military, is that it is about servant leadership, the effective leaders authentic leaders that we saw, regardless of rank, number of metals, on their chests, you know, whatever, right? They served their people first.

Maria Ross  22:12

Well, and that’s why they engender such loyalty and such productivity and such performance. And that’s, you know, when I researched the book, the empathy edge, that was what all the research shows is that empathetic cultures breed more innovation, people are more loyal people are more productive, by whatever measure, you define that and they more often than not achieve their goals. So, it’s not about just being compassionate and empathetic, and everyone’s standing around singing Kumbaya, this is actually in pursuit of achieving the mission. So, for too long, we’ve we’ve held this paradigm that if you are more human at work, if you are more compassionate at work, if you care about your employees, and you even bring a motion to work, that it means you’re going to be you’re going to lack ambition, you’re going to lack a competitive edge, you’re going to lack performance, and the inverse is true. So I love what you’re saying. And, and I love what you said about, you know, servant leadership, because I think this is this is a place where well intentioned new leaders might get it wrong if servant leadership means I kowtow to the needs and desires of everybody on my team. No, that’s not what it means. And so when you were talking about that, it’s it’s about doing what’s best to empower the team and you are making decisions, you are very clearly making decisions, and setting goals and holding people to high standards, but in service of the team. And I think that’s a nuance that new leaders don’t always when they’re trying to embrace servant leadership, they think it just means Oh, I just need to be really nice to everybody. 

 Sean Georges  23:48

Now let’s take a vote see what they want. 

Maria Ross  23:51

Exactly, exactly.

 John Buford  23:52

And I think the the most the most powerful analogy I use talking about servant leadership and it’s one that’s that’s simple, and that everybody understands, because if you haven’t been a parent, you’ve had a parent. And I think the parent child relationship is just the perfect you know, metaphor or model to explain servant leadership, we’ve foul either been a pair or had a pair and understand that it is a the wide range of responses, right? Every parent, nearly every parent, every good parent, number one in their life wants to serve their child wants to see their child’s thrive, survive, do well do better than they did. higher standard liver, etc. But they don’t just coddle their children. They do what’s necessary to move them their children forward, whether that’s a coaching role. disciplinarian, sometimes a shoulder to cry on or a hug. Sometimes, I’ve swapped the Fanny, right? It’s It’s, it’s a wide range, but all of it is based on the desire and the commitment to serve their child. Right. And so, you put that you turn that into a leader follower relationship, it’s the same thing. You know, Shawn often does a really good job talking about the difference between sympathy and empathy, right? Like sympathy is is pat him on the back and feel sorry for someone. Empathy is much more, is much stronger. Because you’re putting yourself in their shoes,

Maria Ross  25:36

you’re in it with them. Yeah, you’re and you’re and you’re actively listening to what they’re going through. So, as you said, sympathy is a little bit more distant. It’s sort of like, Oh, I’m really sorry, this thing is happening to you. And empathy is more about I’m going to I’m going to sit with you in this right sympathy

 John Buford  25:51

is something you do to someone or something you share with someone exactly. You have to work at it, you have to work at getting in their shoes, right? Then you have to decide you want to do that it’s the same as good listening skills, right? You have to work at listening, you have to stop what’s going on in your mind, and turn that off, and be intentional about okay, I want to understand what she who she is.

Maria Ross  26:19

And without defensiveness, this is the thing I always say is empathy. Actually, empathetic leadership actually requires a lot of strength. And you actually have to have your own house in order before you can’t really be empathetic. Because you can’t take on space in your brain for someone else’s point of view or perspective or feelings. If you’re too caught up in your own usual you will you will perceive everything as an attack your opinion to your values to who you are versus how you disagree with me. Tell me more about that. Why do you why do you disagree with this strategy? Why do you not think this is the way to go? Instead of Well, here’s automatically why I’m right, and you’re wrong.

 Sean Georges  26:59

This, this sort of rolls back around to one of the things about the military experience that I think is really smart. We before you are given put in a place where you’re even expected to, to to lead to influence others in the direction of a shared mission. You’re following. You are learning how to follow and with without question, you know, they don’t make you a general, right away or whatever they don’t. In fact, you’ve got to take care of your own stuff first. But that is brilliant. because it enables you to understand right to and to empathize without question, you know, that when, you know, when when something is required or not. You’ve been there you you’ve experienced that. And so, if you paid attention on that journey, right, everyone, you become aware of how you can influence other people and what that what that means, you know, I love General McChrystal, I think I’m quoting him correctly, once said, or wrote something along these lines that leadership is about, or requires the discipline of empathy. And I’ve thought, oh, that is really an interesting couple of. You know, it’s whether whether you were sort of born into this world, an empathetic human being or not,

Maria Ross  28:28

Which we all are sciences. But that muscle just atrophies for some time. So, we can strengthen it again.

 Sean Georges  28:36

And it exactly, and that’s why it’s a discipline, you have to bring it to the dance every time you’ve got to continue to exercise it. And I love that I think that’s a, that’s a part of what makes us makes us human and effective. In our leading, so yeah.

Maria Ross  28:56

Oh my gosh, so much good stuff. So where do you see, well intentioned leaders go wrong? Can you give us one or two red flags that maybe someone listening might go, ooh, I think I just did that behavior or did that thing unknowingly thinking that I’m being supportive of my people?

 John Buford  29:15

Let me start with a short one. And Sean, you can build on this. I think one of the biggest mistakes isn’t answering the question directly where they go wrong, but where they don’t get off on the right foot. Sean and I spend a lot of time in our book. Talking about leading from where you are leading from your place. I think a lot of people get caught off, they get caught off handed or get surprised when they get promoted, or they get put in a situation where they’re no longer just an individual contributor, but now they’re expected to weed Yes. And so we go to great pains to to try to catch people Start your leadership. Now there’s no title, there’s no rank, there’s no you don’t need a title to lead, there’s nothing in our definition, or very few definitions I’ve ever read, that refers to, you know, those in a particular position in the organization or with the title. So if, if you’re not prepared, if you haven’t built those or built those relationships, if you haven’t built that muscle memory, and I’m also talking about the heart muscle, not just others, but if you haven’t done that work, then when you do get in a position where you’re in charge of or charged with leading other people, it can be a bit, a bit of a surprise, and you can show up a little bit flat footed. So that would be the first thing that says, just start exhibiting leadership behaviors. And as Sean said, serving others and aligned with the mission, asking yourself for your best and highest rollers. So you’re prepared when you get there.

 Sean Georges  31:00

And I would, just to build on that, I would say, you know, the, the the times when I’ve seen if there are people not exhibiting leadership behavior, not stepping into that gap are they don’t see it, they don’t see the moment, they don’t see the opportunity. So, they miss it, or they try to fall back on management principles. Let’s set up KPIs, let’s set up a cue ours, you know, and let’s measure performance and do just, you know, all of this stuff that does not necessarily move a human being in the moment with respect to their commitment or their actions. They blur the line between managing and leading, and we do such a poor job overall. And our society, I think, on the planet in, in having a in developing and helping people to, to, to develop and grow and kind of shoulder their responsibilities as leaders, we and quite frankly. That is what John and I are trying to, to chip away at or just take a sledgehammer or re rebuild. I should put it more break. 

Maria Ross  32:27

Right 

 Sean Georges  32:28

Is we have got to find a way to help people come to grips with and to shoulder their leadership responsibilities in their life. And we don’t do a good job of that. The concepts are simple. It’s not easy. Absolutely, you know, to stay on top of, of what it means to be a member of a team who can lead. And those are the best teams, right? And leadership shifts around. And it’s not about rank, and sometimes you’re following and sometimes you’re you’re being a good teammate, and sometimes you’re taking a lead on this issue or that issue or on this matter and, or on that matter. And then you’re gonna step back, it’s a very fluid, kind of, that’s how real leadership works and real. So, you need as many people as possible who are ready and able to step into that gap.

Maria Ross  33:22

Right. And, you know, I know I’ve been a part of an organization, I’m sure you have to where the most influential leaders weren’t necessarily the head of the team. And not because they were usurping power now. But just the relationships they had built with people, the trustworthiness, the authenticity, made people want to follow them. And so, I love what you said earlier about, it’s not about your rank or your title. Because I think people who are not great leaders fall back on that sometimes. Well, I’m the VP and I said so right. And so, it’s really those people who should never have to pull rank, that are able to influence other people’s behavior because people want to follow them. I had a guest on the show previously, who talked about being the leader, every being the leader everyone wants to work for, and I’ll put a link to her episode in the show notes. But it’s that concept, it’s that you don’t really want to force it. You want it to just happen organically, that people are following you and, on your team, and accomplishing the mission because of who you are and what you stand for. 

 John Buford  34:30

Yes. And the circle circle back around your original question you just made me think of something really I think your original question “where do where do people go wrong?” 

Maria Ross  34:40

Yeah.

 John Buford  34:40

I think another additional what Sean said I think another place they go wrong as they tried to do too much themselves too much of the burden on their own shoulders and we we have a piece. And you know, our final chapter book we talked about kind of what next are okay, where do I go from here? And we say there’s no greater purpose and you know, this, we know this. There’s no a higher calling of a leader, they create more leaders. This really became evident to me I taught at undergraduate college for 11 years, taught undergraduate students and in my mission, my personal mission may not my, my job description. My personal mission was to help these young people find their voices a leader. And that was always in the forefront of my mind was not how to lead these people, these these humans, these these undergraduate students, but how I can move the dial or give them the opportunity to move their dial on finding their voices later. What does she need right now to help her move forward? What does he need for me to move forward? Because ultimately, you want to seem team of leaders, right? You want to be able to look at an organization and the team. And the greatest teams I’ve ever seen is I didn’t I couldn’t tell who was in charge.

Maria Ross  36:01

In a good way. 

 John Buford  36:04

It didn’t see the bad side of that. When nobody’s even worse, but

Maria Ross  36:12

I love it. I love it.

 John Buford  36:14

It’s a give and take, you know, it’s a dance. That’s something that I think leaders should always be doing. What can I What can I do to empower to teach the coach to help this person lead from where they are. 

Maria Ross  36:26

And I think because of a if the leaders in the room have adopted a servant leadership model, then nobody’s stepping on each other’s toes, even if everybody’s stepping up as a leader, because again, we’re all here for this mission. And I like I love that you call it a dance, because it’s, here’s, I’m gonna step up, because these are my strengths. But John, I’m gonna let you step up for this. Because I know these are your strengths. There’s no arrogance, there’s no pridefulness, there’s no ego. I’ve often quoted a friend of mine, Paris Albania, who I had on the show before as well, where she talks about ego kills empathy. And if you are coming at leadership, from an arrogant point of view, from an entitled point of view from a, everybody must listen to me and do what I say point of view. You might be successful in the short term, you know, but it’s not sustainable. And again, you’re not going to be the leader, people want to work for long term. So speaking of that, as we kind of wrap up here, just quick, not really round Robin. But John and Sean, who is an example of a good leader, in today’s world, in any industry, any realm, any space?

 John Buford  37:37

I’ll speak to my history in one of the greatest leadership lessons I ever got, I ever received. He was a, he was my battalion commander. So he was in charge of, you know, 800 guys, and I was paid him in, you know, business parlance mid-level manager below him. In the military, there’s very much a customer tradition of turning over command. So, when you leave a command, you have a big parade and a march and lots of pomp and circumstance, the old guy leaves the new guy or gal comes in. He was the best he was hard is harder than woodpecker lips, as we say, here in western North Carolina. He’s a tough guy. But he was the best leader I ever knew. And when he turned over command, he visibly wept, watching his Marines, what we call pastor view, March, Pastor van, and it was a aha moment for me. I think I was a good leader, but to see a man of his status and rank, visibly emotionally touched, by watching the the men and women he served for several years marched by and knowing that, that he was moving on that stuff. And that that was like, oh, I get it.

Maria Ross  39:07

I get those are the models, right? People that can be strong, and have high standards, and be human. You know, we need to do that I have a son, especially for men in our culture and boys in our culture, we need to show them that they can be strong and emotional at the same time. So, I love that leadership example. That that he shared with you. And how about you, Sean?

 Sean Georges  39:30

Yeah, in fact, I would add just to that, that, that that is required for leadership. Sometimes we get into this place. Oh, he was a great leader or she was a great leader. And then they were not quite No, no, no, that is leadership. I think there’s, there’s not there’s that is leadership. We’ve got to build back into sort of the definition what it really means to lead authentically you know for. And I love what you said about your so. We have sons and daughters and, and we need we can and and should lead in the same way across the spectrum of our life. You know, when I think of just me personally and something that had an impact on me, it was. Well, many things did but there was an upperclassman at the Naval Academy who, who later became an admiral. And so, you know, by the system sort of said, Yeah, this this person is, is an excellent leader. And this was early in my development, and I was about to meet with him in the midst of my first year at the academy and get some feedback, and I was in sort of full-on survival mode, I was coming at me fast and furious. I didn’t know which way was up. And so, this was six months into the first year. And he he sat down, and I respected him greatly, just tremendous example, calm, he you could tell he was watching and cared. And he said, Shawn, what do you see yourself accomplishing here at the academy and in your four years? And that that question was like, I don’t even you know, I’m trying to get through

Maria Ross  41:16

I won’t hate that question of what do you see yourself in five years? I’m like, I don’t know what opportunities themselves? Yeah.

 Sean Georges  41:25

And I gave some silly kind of answer, you know. Hope to hope to graduate, sir. But then he said this, he said, no. He said, here’s what I see you doing. And he laid out, you know, an academic goal and an athletic goal and a leadership goal. And he had been watching, he had been thinking he had actually put time and attention in and they weren’t, you know, oh, you’re gonna be great. You know, they weren’t really.

Maria Ross  41:53

They weren’t accustomed to you, because he got to know you.

 Sean Georges  41:56

It was real. Yeah, he actually spent that was and I ended up doing some things that were along those lines, not because he said. This is what I see that you are going to do. But because he helped me to take another look at, at taking responsibility for my life and for my journey. And, and just a circle back around. Our book is about the journey. It’s about taking responsibility for your journey of development, right here and now. Your life is your school. And that’s what we’re trying to get at.

Maria Ross  42:33

Well, I think that’s a great place to leave this wonderful conversation. John, Sean, thank you so much for sharing your insights. The book again is called “On mission, your journey to authentic leadership”. Pick up a copy if you can at all the places where you can get your books. And until next time. Please remember that cashflow and creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

As we slide into Thanksgiving here in the United States, I’m facing mixed emotions about this holiday as I get older and wiser. Now, don’t get me wrong, I have a lot to be thankful for, but let’s talk for a second about the myth of thanksgiving. From a traditional perspective, gathering with friends and family and reflecting on all we have to be grateful for holds comfort and joy. No matter how dysfunctional our communities or our families may be, many of us are able to come together on this holiday, to eat amazing food, watch the kids play, catch some football, and gracefully sidestep any divisive political debates, which in recent years has taken on a whole new level of Herculean effort, but having a more realistic understanding of the roots of this holiday, gives me pause. 

Listen in to hear about the true story of the first Thanksgiving, get some tips around being truthful and compassionate, while still honoring tradition, and recognize the evolution of knowledge and truth and how it can help us to become better as humans. Happy Thanksgiving to all who are listening!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• The first Thanksgiving was a harvest festival, not a banquet that the pilgrims and indigenous people were both invited to, and after which, relationships turned sour.
• We can be honest and still honor our own family traditions.
• We can’t have conversations around empathy without acknowledging that one of the country’s most revered holidays is a false picture of history, and has roots in oppression.
• Shatter facades and replace them with something that is honest, true, and loving, both in your personal life and in your professional life. 

“Please don’t be afraid of how our knowledge evolves, even if it means uncomfortable mindset shifts. That’s how we get better over time as humans.” —  Maria Ross

References: 

Jasmine Bradshaw, First Name Basis podcast, The Untold Story of Thanksgiving (Encore)

The Empathy Edge podcast: Elisa Camahort Page: The Art of Empathy in Politics, Activism, and Media BS

The Empathy Edge podcast: M.E. Hart: How to Have Honest Conversations at Work

The Empathy Edge podcast: Mónica Guzmán: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Divided Political Times

The Empathy Edge podcast: David Weissman: From MAGA to Jewish Liberal Progressive

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

As we slide into thanksgiving here in the United States, I’m facing mixed emotions about this holiday as I get older and wiser. Now, don’t get me wrong, I have a lot to be thankful for. I’m grateful to you, dear listener for tuning into this podcast every week. And joining me on the journey of embracing empathy as a competitive advantage and as a new definition of success. But let’s get back for a second to the myth of thanksgiving. From a tradition perspective, gathering with friends and family and reflecting on all we have to be grateful for holds comfort and joy. I get that no matter how dysfunctional our communities or our families may be. Many of us are able to come together at this holiday, eat amazing food, watch the kids play, catch some football, and gracefully sidestep any divisive political debates, which in recent years has taken on a whole new level of Herculean effort. And PS I’ll put some links in the show notes to some of my past great guests, who can help you navigate those tense discussions this holiday season. But having a more realistic understanding of the roots of this holiday gives me pause. It’s a fiction, we’ve been sold as good little American boys and girls that this holiday is about peace and harmony between the pilgrims and the digital in the indigenous communities they invaded, that it symbolizes coexisting with those who are different from us. But this is actually a far cry from the reality of the holiday. Please take a listen to Jasmine Bradshaw’s great podcast on the true history of thanksgiving. She’s the host of the first name basis podcast. She’s amazing. And I’ll place a link in the show notes. This is where I got a lot of this information and she’s done deep research into the event. And she explains it much more articulately than I can and in a very factual and kind way without sparing the truth. 

As a summary, the reality is that when Columbus and other Europeans arrived onto these native lands, they brought the plague and other diseases that nearly wiped out many indigenous populations who are already here. They also dug up the winter food store that the Native community, the Wampanoag flag had buried for safekeeping and declared it a miracle from God that they found the food which they stole from the people who were here first. They also dug up some graves and stole some contents as well. But that’s for another discussion to quantum or Squanto, as we may have learned about growing up was an English speaking go between from the Wampanoag people to the English settlers. But what we’re not taught is that the reason he knows English is because he was one of the many indigenous people kidnapped back to Europe into slavery. Between Columbus’s arrival and the arrival of the Mayflower. He escapes, gets back to his home country, and finds his people practically wiped out from the plague. Which by the way, the Europeans also claimed to be a gift from God, that in wiping out the indigenous population, gave them a place to live and settle. Nice. And then in March of 1621, Massasoit, who is the leader of the Wampanoags, forms an uneasy alliance with the Europeans to protect them from the Narragansetts, who they don’t get along with in exchange for mutual protection. They teach them about seeds, planting and harvesting indigenous crops, which is why we have all the foods at the first thanksgiving that the Europeans didn’t even know about. Turns out this first thanksgiving in air quotes was actually a harvest festival, which is common in many places throughout the world. And the indigenous community found out about it, and decided to investigate. It was not a banquet they were invited to, according to the myth that we’ve learned. After that the relationship sours and eventually, Massasoit son who takes over is killed, no more joyous sharing of pumpkin pie between these two groups. 

Again, this is just a summary the tip of the iceberg but what I loved about Jasmine’s podcast episode and her research is that she also talks about the manufactured myth of thanksgiving and how it was brought to us by the same woman who helps sell Christmas as an American tradition. Sarah Josepha Hale. Now, why do I tell you all this on a podcast about empathy as a competitive advantage? Well, I’m truly not trying to steal your joy about thanksgiving, but to share why it’s important to see things honestly, and from others points of view. If you’re a member of a native community here in the US, thanksgiving might be pretty damn painful for you. Also, it speaks to the way we’ve been indoctrinated into systems and traditions that were born from marginalizing and oppressing others. Even if that’s not our intent. Now, we need to own that. And those systems are very real today in the form of organizational and systemic racism, xenophobia, and bias. We talk a lot on the show about how to better understand and connect with others who are not like us. We talk about it a lot in the work context, but you understand my sneaky mission, which is really to help you live your lives as more empathetic people. And I should say live our lives as more empathetic people because it’s something I’m constantly working on as well. We’re trying to connect and understand with others, who have different experiences, perspectives, opinions and beliefs. And we can’t have those conversations without acknowledging that one of the country’s most revered holidays is a false picture of history, and has roots in oppression. Not to make you feel guilty for sharing a wonderful meal with your loved ones, but rather to help all of us truly embrace gratitude and empathy. 

A holiday dedicated to gratitude is not a bad thing. We need to be more thankful for our blessings in my humble opinion. And in doing so we can also show grace and compassion for those whose ancestors were not just hurt, but victimized by colonizers. We can be honest and still honor our own family traditions. We can speak the truth to our kids about what really happened at the first thanksgiving, not to guilt or shame them, but to ensure we understand how we can do better and reached out to others, as family as colleagues, as humans. Just because it’s not the truth we grew up with doesn’t make it any less true. Please don’t be afraid of how our knowledge evolves, even if it means uncomfortable mindset shifts. That’s how we get better over time as humans. So, shine the light into the dark places, have honest conversations, shatter facades to replace them with something true, honest and loving. This is equally true in our personal lives, as it is within our work relationships. Only then, can we form connections and build communities that can truly celebrate, collaborate, and break bread together. If you’re celebrating with your family or your friends, I wish you a happy Thanksgiving. And I wish you all the love and peace in the world. Until next time, remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care, and be kind.

We’ve been through some serious business and culture shifts the last few years. But this is the way things always are. If it’s not COVID, it will surely be something else in the future. Remember, the only constant is change, even if you don’t ask or plan for it. How can you examine, design and measure your organization’s ability  – and your own leadership ability – to build trust so you can more easily adapt to change and bring your people along?

My guest today is Esther Weinberg, Founder and Chief Leadership Development Officer of The Ready Zone. Esther shares six Zone Performance Indicators, of ZPI’s that are paramount to profitable growth. We also had a rich conversation about how emotions, body, and language impact performance in a real way, how emotions are  “signposts” that should not be ignored, and how to look at complaints as commitments – and offer some tough love advice if you’re a leader struggling to get comfortable with dealing with emotions if you want to achieve high performance. We both have some choice words for you at the end of our interview!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• As your company changes, it may be time to usher people out of the organization (with empathy and dignity) who are no longer a fit for the changes the company has had and hire someone else who may be a better fit for the new place the company is in. 
• Culture transcends the physical office space. If your culture is not portable, that’s where the effort needs to be.
• Create a vision narrative (not just a vision tagline). Give the vision a story that people can get behind and want to be a part of creating.
• If you hear a complaint as a commitment, think about how that changes what you’re hearing and what action you are willing to take. 

“Emotions are signposts about what is important to us. You have to actually ground yourself in them to see whether or not your emotions are telling you the truth and are leading you in the direction of something that’s important to you.” —  Esther Weinberg

About Esther Weinberg, Founder, The Ready Zone

Esther Weinberg is a business growth accelerator that equips executives in high-growth industries to create big pivots, big impact and big returns. As Founder & Chief Leadership Development Officer of The Ready Zone, she powerfully fast-tracks an organization’s progress by focusing on The Ready Zone’s six Zone Performance Indicators (ZPIs), that are paramount to profitable growth. Esther’s innovative strategies have assisted clients to grow, scale and thrive in the worst and best of times including Netflix, NBCUniversal, Microsoft, CNN, Adobe, Disney, and IMAX. Esther is a member of the Forbes Coaches Council and a contributor to Forbes.

Connect with Esther Weinberg:

Website: https://thereadyzone.com/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/estherweinberg/ 

Her Book: Better Leaders. Better People. Better Results. 6 Eye-Opening Strategies to Thrive Through Change You Didn’t Ask For: https://thereadyzone.com/resources/ 

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

We’ve been through some serious business and culture shifts the last few years. But this is the way things always are. If it’s not COVID. If it’s not social unrest, it will surely be something else in the future. Remember, the only constant is change, even if you don’t ask or plan for it. How can you examine design and measure your organization’s ability and your own leadership ability to build trust so you can more easily adapt to change and bring your people along? My guest today is Esther Weinberg, founder and chief Leadership Development Officer of the ready zone. She’s the author of better leaders better people better results, six eye opening strategies to thrive through change you didn’t ask for which is a perfect subtitle. We talk about how issues start off as a profit problem, but are actually people problems. How to create cultures where trust, respect and safety are valued and measured as they impact the bottom line, and what questions you should really be asking about how to make hybrid work successful. First, a little bit more about Esther, she’s a business growth accelerator that equips executives in high growth industries to create big pivots big impact and big returns. Esther’s innovative strategies have assisted clients to grow, scale and thrive in the worst and best of times, including Netflix, NBC, Universal, Microsoft, CNN, Adobe, Disney and IMAX. Esther is a member of the Forbes coaches Council and a contributor to Forbes. Today Esther shares six zone performance indicators or ZPI’s that are paramount to profitable growth. We also had a rich conversation about how emotions, body and language impact performance in a real way. How emotions are signposts that should not be ignored, and how to look at complaints as commitments. And we offer some tough love advice if you’re a leader struggling to get comfortable with dealing with emotions. If you want to achieve high performance, we both have some choice words for you at the end of our interview. So take a listen. 

Maria Ross  03:47

Hello, Esther Weinberg and welcome to this episode of the empathy edge to talk about how to grow scale and thrive in the worst and best of times. Welcome.

  Esther Weinberg  03:59

Thanks so much for having me. I love when you say the the best and worst of times. It’s true.

Maria Ross  04:07

Isn’t that how the Tale of Two Cities opens up? I love it. Well, you know, you have such a wealth of experience and knowledge around helping companies in high growth industries to pivot to have big impact and you know, pivot. I think that’s been the word of the last two years. Yeah. So, let’s talk a little bit first about how you got to this work. What is your what’s your origin story? As my friend Elisa Campbell for Paige would say,

  Esther Weinberg  04:36

I was born in a hospital of Brooklyn, New York. Well, you know, it’s, it’s, um, you know, my, my career started off actually in marketing and publicity, I think when it was interesting when I was if we’re really gonna go back I remember I was, I was a student at New York University. I’m a New Yorker, born and raised very proud. Yeah,

Maria Ross  05:00

Hey, girl Queens girl right here.

  Esther Weinberg  05:01

Oh, look at that Brooklyn. So, um, I remember when I when I was at NYU as I was trying to figure out my major and I took a media class and they were talking about how this group of people come in and talk to reporters and, and talk to them that story ideas, and they’re called publicists or public relations professionals. And I thought I have to be one of these people. I just thought it was unbelievable. I was journalism major. And I thought it was fascinating. So, I was always fascinated by the human condition and very highly curious and always very curiously engaged. And I was in marketing and publicity for for quite a while. That was my original background, I worked at a small agency starting off, but then I wound up working for big brands like Fox and Disney. And I remember when I was at a turning point for me, I was an executive, a senior executive at Disney. And we were sitting around one of those very, you know, old world oak. Oh, yeah. And the CFO said, I Oh, yeah, he’s just giving an update. And there was a management consultant in the room. She was really interesting. And she said, he said, Oh, I just want you to know, a third of the workforce have left. And I remember, both myself and the head of sales were floored, and I thought, what do you mean, a third of the workforce have left? Why are we not getting this? Why are we not? I mean

Maria Ross  06:31

It’s like a Colombo moment. Like, by the way.

  Esther Weinberg  06:36

Today, we use a lot of buzzwords around it, why you would say workforce engagement and, and things like that. But it was like people left you kidding, you know. And I think I was just so floored that we weren’t investigating it. And there was this, this feeling that we’re a big brand will always be able to attract people, which is interesting. We are present day with with pretend talent retention.

Maria Ross  07:02

Absolutely. That idea that like, people want to be here. People want to come here. We don’t have to try. 

  Esther Weinberg  07:08

Yeah, yeah. It’s like, you know, we are we are in such a problem. And I just thought, oh, wow, that’s, that’s, I don’t know if that’s helpful. And so, I remember there was, there was a moment in time, though, where I was, we’re shifting gears as a brand. And I was going to be head of all of corporate communications for this suite of services that Disney offered. And I had rich reached the point where I didn’t feel like I really had respect for the person I reported to. But I didn’t know that at the time. And I just had this real turning point. And it was interesting, because I thought I have to have a mentor of mine said, you know, it’s time for you to devise an exit strategy. If you feel disillusioned, then are you going to stay in a job like that I was sick, I was 30, I was a vice president. I was like, you know, you look back, you’re like, I’m young and scrappy. Like, I can’t leave a job. You know, and, and so I designed my exit. And it was interesting, because when I designed my exit, the day that I went in to resign, my boss, also let me go, which was just I guess it was for both of us. So, what I would say from there is I, I started to really inquire as to what was really true for me and what I was really passionate about. And I stumbled on this whole concept around leadership development, talent development, executive coaching. And so I became certified, trained, certified, and executive coaching and started a leadership development business. And it really took me I would say, across the globe, I mean, not only quite done work for big brands, like Netflix and Warner Brothers discovery, State Farm Insurance, National Geographic, CNN. But also I’ve done work in the Middle East, I’ve done work in, in Africa, in Botswana. And I also moved myself to Uganda, Africa, because I, I had reached a point in my life where I really wanted to do children’s rights work and had the opportunity to go in country and to do an organizational assessment for a project that was funded by the US. Well, there were several things one was doing a, an assessment for an organization that was the largest child rights membership-based organization, all of all of Africa. And I was a part of a, a three-person team to Ugandan men and me and they affectionately called me the Masoom goo, which was an affectionate term for a white person. And so we went around Uganda, and we, we did this profound assessment for the organization and we also did an assessment of children’s rights, and then in the state of children’s rights in the country. And then at night, I ran my business, doing organizational change with a have a high growth companies in the United States. And at that time, that was that was an unheard of thing. And so, Dennis,

Maria Ross  10:07

Is that when you start was that the ready zone that you’re running now? 

  Esther Weinberg  10:10

Yeah, well what happened when I came back not to make a long story longer, but I had had this kind of like this aha moment in Uganda, when I was doing this project for the US government around AIDS, malaria, tuberculosis analysis. And I just thought that I needed to come home. And after a while coming back to the United States, I really realized I think I had this turning point in my career where I was, I think, people either whether you’re an entrepreneur or just an executive, you get to we’re just like, what am I doing? What am I doing it for? And where am I going? At the moment, and I really realized that I had dived deep into what my I want my legacy to be, and really saw that was around human dignity. And from there, because it was really an extension of all the work that I had done. And and what I saw was when I looked up and around, like, you know, executives really want to feel ready to powerfully take on all the opportunities and challenges that their feet, they just don’t know how, but the real secret sauce to doing it is creating workplace cultures where trust, respect and psychological safety are not just, you know, talked about, but there are doctors valued, but there is measured as the bottom line, that’s when we created the red zone, because that was like, Okay, how do we get people ready, create a framework and a formula for how people do it practically and pragmatically. So, it’s not just theory that people can go ahead and do it. Because, you know, as you know, that the challenges that people are facing today, or opportunities that people are facing today, they’re real people want answers now, not tomorrow, today. And this meant really. 

Maria Ross  11:48

Absolutely. And so, let’s let’s dive into that. Because what a fascinating journey you’ve taken and I just before we move on, I want to not let it slip by that you talk about human dignity when you’re talking about organizational culture, when you’re talking about leadership development and leadership capability. And I think that’s been the missing piece in so many industrialized organizations, if you will, in that we have forgotten that human beings are working for us, it’s, you know, we sort of threw out this term human resources, as if they were just another asset on our asset list. And there is so much wrapped up in the human experience about how we show up at work, how we’re treated at work, what we’re enabled to achieve at work, that really gets down to this fundamental right of human dignity. And that might sound really lofty to maybe a CEO going I’m just trying to sell software, right. But it fundamentally is what it’s all about.

  Esther Weinberg  12:50

Well, I’ll give you a real practical example. I was talking to two executives last week, and, and we were talking about the fact that their organization has shifted massively, which many organizations today have, and they’ve laid a bunch of people off. And it was the first time that in the organization’s history that they’ve ever laid people off. And this is a multibillion-dollar company, which is amazing. And they were talking about the fact that they’re now trying to figure out what kind of leaders they need to be during these times because they’re reorient, the work is being reoriented. And what’s being asked to them as leaders is different where it was more of, let’s say, an egalitarian or autonomous environment. Well, now it’s, it’s injected with a little bit more of hierarchy, meaning that everybody just can’t make everything, something someone’s going to need to be a bit be the last veto. And so, we were talking about what kind of leader do you need to be? And what is that insight? And what I said to them was, we have to remember a couple of things. If, if the foundation of what you’re trying to create, you’re trying to figure this out for you, and then you’re trying to figure it out for the people who report to you like what kind of environment do we do we want to make and they were all about, they love the concept of of readiness and human dignity? And I said, well, I want to be clear. That doesn’t mean every you’re going to want everybody at the end of the day. And I don’t mean for that to be the way it sounds. But I said, you know, it may be that you may need to usher people out. Yeah, because they’re not in alignment with where you’re growing, which happens, right? You get a job or sign up for a job at a certain point, you’re in a job for a few years, culture changes, the business changes. It’s not a match anymore, happens all the time. Right. But what I said is the distinction is that you usher them out with as much human dignity as you onboard them. And so and they, they were like, I hadn’t even never thought of it that way.

Maria Ross  14:52

Absolutely. And I’ve talked about this in in my empathy work is that sometimes empathy is not just about doing what everybody wants, it’s about doing the right thing. But the way that you do it is with empathy. And, and in cases where someone’s not in the right job, right, nobody wants to come to work and fail every day. And so it’s actually the empathetic thing to do to sit down with that person and try to figure out what could help them succeed, what is going on with them. And if they’re still not a fit for the organization, it’s actually empathetic to help them let go and help them find an opportunity where their talents and their values can thrive.

  Esther Weinberg  15:32

Absolutely. Look, I remember I look, I remember in my career that, you know, everybody always remembers their first, you know, the first time you ever had to let someone go. And I remember when I had to let first person, one woman go. And I remember, like, HR was in the room with me. And, and I was trying to cobble together the words, and it just was a mess, because I really liked her so much.

Maria Ross  15:55

And legally, there’s only so much you can say as well, like there’s that added layer of complexity.

16:01

And so and then we’re, you know, I said, I’ll walk you out. And so, we’re both in the elevator going downstairs, and there’s a security guard with us, which of course, felt very intimate. And then we get to the street, a big hug. And she’s like, look, I gotta tell you, I don’t think this was a fetch for a while. And I just think my skill sets in another place. And I, I hate that this had to happen. But I actually feel pretty liberated. And I was like, oh my God, this is.

Maria Ross  16:28

Your like, thank you.

  Esther Weinberg  16:29

Glad to work. But yeah, I would say to you that it’s it. You know, when people hear the phrase human dignity, I really think that they get very lost in it, because it sounds very lofty, but it really comes down to what you’re speaking to also is, how do we create, it comes down to how do we create the best workplaces where people can do their best work. So, it’s like I was talking to a an executive, senior executive, a media company the other day, and she was saying this a few weeks ago, she was saying that they’re there, there have a hybrid work environment. And they’re really trying to figure out how they get people back into the office at least two days of the week. And I said, well, what what’s coming out of those conversations is on at the senior executive table. And she’s like, well, we keep going round around and you don’t really have an answer. And I said, well, maybe you need to change the question, because the question is not how do we get people into an office? The question is, what kind of environment we created, that people want to actually come. And they feel like they want to come in droves. Rather than feeling like it’s a prison, you know, I’m going to write you into these four walls, right? Because what we what in what she and I started talking about is that if your culture is not portable, then that’s really where the effort needs to be, is that culture needs to train. And we’ve seen this since COVID, is that culture transcends the physical office space.  And so, a hundred percent, this is a thing. It’s like these companies that have fallen back, I’ve had a few episodes where we’ve talked about this, I spoke to Rebecca freeze about the good culture book that she wrote. And she talked about the fact that culture is how work gets done. And that is not limited to four walls and a foosball table and free beer on Fridays. Like, if that was the culture, the perks that you were hiding behind pre COVID to help yourself think that you had a good culture. Now it’s being laid bare, that your culture actually had some gaps. Also, everything means anything means everything. So, you tell people that we’re not wearing the summer Fridays, you tell people, we’re not going to do meetings after five o’clock. And then the moment, especially in this environment, you actually flip to the opposite side, you scheduled meetings, you while you have off, you have summer Fridays, you’re really scheduling meetings during the summer Fridays, what happens is that trust becomes eroded so quickly. It’s so much harder to get it back. And I and I remember I, I read a data survey. I mean, a survey that was saying recently that if employees trust their employers’ commitments, their engagement level can increase up to 20%. Now, maybe that doesn’t sound so high, but the likelihood that they’ll leave their organization increases by 87%. If they trust you. 

Maria Ross  19:24

Hmm, absolutely. So, let’s, let’s dive into that. Because, you know, you have talked about issues starting off as a prophet problem when it’s really a people problem. Yeah. So how do peep? I think there’s a lot of leaders that are like, yes, we need to create that organizational culture where trust and respect and safety are valued and are measured as the bottom line. But how do we do that? Like practically, can you give us some examples of what that looks like to maybe give listeners a place to start if their culture is you know, or to look at and say, well, we are doing this right.

  Esther Weinberg  19:59

Yeah, so so we, we created the ready zone. We created this diagnostic formula that we affectionately call zone performance indicators, there are KPIs that you can actually see whether or not this is happening. And we actually call them, I’ll give you some examples within it, but we call it. So, there’s six of them. So, there’s pivot ready, which is all around that level of shift ability that you have. I know that pivot has been an overused term, but I think it gets a bad rap. Because it’s really about what are you baking into the culture that you can shift all the time, action ready is around you’ll love this is around your level of emotional agility. It’s around what kind of living legacy. Are you breathing into the organization for yourself and your team and the company all the time, the boundaries, you set, also how you, the observer that you are, and how you see the world influence, radius around visibility and influence, connect, ready is around communication, impact, readies around building teams, and culture ready is all around how you create an environment where coaching and mentoring is just what people do. It’s just a way that they walk around in the world. So, I’ll give you an example of what I’m what I’m talking about. So there was a, there was a founder group, there’s a company very successful company. And they were looking to grow and scale more dramatically. But what was happening originally at the base, is they were saying the founders actually founded the organization. There’s some dysfunction within that within that group. So when we looked at the model of the ready zone model, we’re looking at the basic place we’re starting is we’re talking about impact reading, where this this how can you grow and scale an organization if the founders are not doing the work they need to do. But then we also saw as action readies around around the observer that you are and how you look out into the world? And what what do you see? And how does that dictate what you choose to do or not do? So what we did was we did an assessment of the founder group. And we brought them together and actually re united them to the basis and the essence for where they actually created their company, which was at the time around 14 or 15 years old, and they had created this company years ago. And then what they realized is that, okay, you know, we don’t have we’ve been insanely successful. But we do not have a vision, narrative and articulated sense of what the future we want to create. And also, while we’ve been insanely successful, we also don’t have really these bold steps articulated that we want to create that we can rally the whole organization around. So what we did was we created what we call a vision narrative different than a vision, because vision is, you know, people tagline like Nike just do it. But this is like three paragraphs that really paints a picture of a future state of where they wanted to go and grow. And people are semi socialized in the organization. And then we did a and then we got a group of people together from all across the globe. They’ve never done this before. And we talked about the vision. And now given that, what do they want to create? What are they up to, and people are so excited to be able to put a stamp on what they wanted the future of the business to look like because they are so passionate about the business. You don’t know, you don’t always find that people are so passionate about what they do.

Maria Ross  23:35

They know they know where they’re going now. And this is where you know, our work intersects because as a brand strategist, to your point, a vision is not a tagline. A vision is a narrative. It’s the articulation of the future state that you’re actually working towards. And sometimes I even challenge my brand clients to come up with a vision that would actually put them out of business, that if this, if this future state was achieved, you wouldn’t need our organization anymore. And that is that is a that is longer than a sentence that is longer than a word. That is something where I need to know where I’m going. But you also you know, it’s not just, I’m going to Hawaii. Paint me a Picture about what that looks like when I get there.

  Esther Weinberg  24:19

Well, and you’re right, that it became so inspiring that then an organization that didn’t necessarily have strategy, the way that perhaps we would define it then created these big bold steps for themselves, right and started creating the level of execution that we involve people throughout the organization that had never been involved in any kind of execution strategy. Like yeah, it’s like, it’s, you know, oftentimes people don’t have the patience to do development, but I really believe in development through the work. Yeah. And so then we were putting people super passionate about certain segments in charge of it until must be the captains of the chips. And then they’re able to organize to actually start delivering. And as a result, the organization was able to start growing and scaling and their profitability dramatically increase as a result of those steps that they’ve made. 

Maria Ross  25:17

There’s, there’s this idea of trying to put together a strategy before you actually have a vision. And if you don’t have a vision of where you’re going, where the ultimate destination is, you can’t figure out how will we get there, which is the strategy.

  Esther Weinberg  25:33

Well, I think that it’s a couple of things. One is that I’ve seen this a lot, especially in organizations that have merged organizations. I can’t tell you how many words in show I’m working with that either have reorganized the companies reorganize the teams, and there and there are people inside the organization waiting, literally waiting for a vision to emerge. And so, a lot of work that we’re doing is just small pockets, like this division, create your own this division, create your own division, create your own. Now, it’s not an ideal situation. But here’s the thing, also, that when you’re creating transformation inside of organizations, sometimes it’s very difficult to actually create a picture of a future that you don’t yet know what it fully looks like. But what I find that, especially during times of change, people want to have road under their feet. So, what I tell people is, you know, what we talk often about is what can you control, and then what you can you create based around that. So, give you an example, like there’s a division a CFO, a corporate social responsibility, division one, and one of the organizations we’re working with, and their company just merge. And the leader was saying, I can’t I if I see people all around me that are waiting for the organization to say, or to bring in like a McKinsey or an Accenture to start doing the work that tell us where we’re going and where we’re headed. So that we know how to organize our strategy. She’s like, I can’t wait, we have business to run, we have things to do. And so, she’s like, you know, so we’re talking about, okay, create your own right now for whatever you know. So, this way, at least, that you can set strategy based on a context that you’ve created the context. And then you see within the organization about getting buy in for it. Now I know it’s not ideal. But when you’re running a business moment to moment, you need a agile way to do this, in order for you to feel like you can rally yourself behind something, and then you can rally your people around it. So for example, this executive that I’m talking about, now, her team has a purpose now, do they not get a little wobbly at certain times, because they say, Well, wait a second, here’s what we’re doing feeding into the hole. But if they waited, they would, there’ll be nothing. And most, most likely, what would happen is the business would look at them and say, you know what, I don’t even know what these people are doing, we should let them go, which is not now as a result of the fact that they’ve self-generated. Now they’re becoming a model for other divisions inside of the organization of how to be more nimble.

Maria Ross  28:16

I love that so much. I mean, that’s why I talk about that a lot in terms of, you know, from the aspect of empathy, you know, people just sort of giving up going, you know, well, our culture will never be empathetic, our CEO will never, you know, mandate and measure empathy. But you can create micro cultures, within your team within your department, within your part of the organization to do exactly what you just said, which is become a model, because as they succeed, doing what they’re doing, people will start to take notice, and they’re gonna go, I want to do that for myself. And then all of a sudden, you start getting people on board with understanding the value of a vision linked to strategy. So, I love that example. I want to get back to the original question that we kind of talked about, which is how we create organizational cultures where trust, respect and safety are valued. And you talked about a really important piece of that, which is helping people understand where they’re going and sticking to your word, as a weight of building trust. But what I guess my question is, what with your clients? How do you help them measure trust, respect and safety, psychological safety?

  Esther Weinberg  29:26

Well, what we do is, first of all, for the ready, so we have an assessment that we do give people so this way they can see because the zones are made up of the environments, because you have to remember, trust, respect and psychological safety are a they’re a, what would I say? They’re a fabric of many, many things. Yeah, right. So, so there, its interpersonal relationships, constructive and respectful debate and dialogue. I mean, that’s very small, right? Minute examples.

Maria Ross  29:59

Feeling like you can contribute an idea feeling like you can take a risk. Like your what you’re saying is there’s a lot of threads nodded into those concepts.

  Esther Weinberg  30:08

That’s right, because it can feel it can seem very amorphous. That’s why originally, when we created these zones, I’ll give you an example in a second. But when we created these zones, it was for people to contextualize the elements through which create that. So for example, if I’m working, if I have, if I’m being measured against certain aspects of how I morph and change and anticipate change, that creates, that creates psychological safety for the people that that I work with, or that report to me, if I actually am emotionally resilient. So, it’s not, you know, the the boss that walks in the office, small example, how I am emotionally one day, and then I’m radically different another that also creates a sense of balance and stability. For me, when we’re going through all these erratic changes, if I’m able to build if how i index, you know, influence is the leadership currency, if I’m able to influence by actually stepping out and being visible, and being able to find my own voice and to speak up and to articulate things that are really important. And to build relationships based on giving rather than taking, that also creates a sense of stability and trust, if I’m able to communicate, have difficult conversations, not avoid them, not sidestep them, not kind of have a tough conversation, but really do how I’m actually able to be my word, how I’m building, how I have a way to actually measure how I’m building effective, impactful teams and taking care of my people, and how I’m baking into the fabric of what I’m doing coaching and mentoring. So we’re always taking care of each other, then that is the that’s the that’s foundation. So let me give you a few examples.

Maria Ross  31:57

For you do before you do I want to I want to pick that apart a little bit more. Because again, how do you measure those things? You can’t just ask a leader? Do you adapt well to change? Yes or no? Like? So how do you measure that for people? How do you measure those aspects that you just talked about? Is it a before and after? And is the after, after leadership development in areas where they need improvement?

  Esther Weinberg  32:22

I would say that it’s it’s several things. So, development can always be a part of it. Meaning that well, when when I hear that you say development, I’m not necessarily talking about an external force, or you need HR to come in and do a series of trainings. One of the one of the things you can measure as an example, is typically we talk about leadership, we talk about actions and results, right? That’s what you and I are talking about, right? You take actions that lead to certain results. We don’t like the results, we change the actions. But what we never deal with not never, but when we we sidestep dealing with it as the observer, the observer looks out into the world, I look out in the world, and I take actions that lead to certain results. But we don’t take and it’s like the definition of insanity is if we’re just dealing with the actions or results, we don’t deal with the person. So that is one signpost so let me give you an example within that. So, we teach people to create resiliency by what I call pivot moments. What I mean by that, as you know, specialisms COVID, we can’t control change, but we can control is our intentions and our actions, you know, think about it. Anyone can change for like a moment. And you can actually measure that incrementally. Are you seeing something differently in this moment or not? Are you taking different action steps or not? Right? You can do that for 30 seconds a minute. If I asked you for a long time you tell me I’ve lost my mind. But what but pivot moments that we call is it builds up resilience and gives you evidence or proof that I can, you can we all can actually change and have the strength to continue. So, pivot moments are made up of looking at what your current reality is, that comes about how you feel about the change or your emotions, how you experience it, or the actions or inactions you’re taking, which could support the changes or not. And if you are honest with yourself, you could see if your output is a match to your intention. So, for example, I had a client named Aisha who is only gotten increasingly frustrated with her boss Jamila, who’s the president of content at one of the companies in California, and she’s really frustrated that junella cannot make decisions, she vacillates or she’ll make a decision and go back on it and she can’t handle conflict. Now Aisha is seen as the number two executive in the department on the team. So, what is I should do is any type a person would do she steps in starts with making decisions where she shouldn’t be, or she looks to push more strategic decisions out of just sheer frustration. And she’s the situations really escalated. But her intention is she said to me, look, I want to be able to measure my level of how effective I am with my boss, I want to be able to manage up with greater ease. I want to be a collaborator, I want to step away when I’m frustrated, instead of leaning and solve everything. So, when we start to work through this formula for current reality, and we talked about motions, this would resonate with you quite a bit. She’s like, look, I’m angry, I’m frustrated, I’m disappointed. But she really was was heartbroken, which I’ll get to in a second in her about her bosses, she doesn’t know how to manage your lead, her lack of decision making is going to get her into trouble. She isn’t strategic, she leads with her ego. But when we talked about the actions, actual proof actions she’s taking to support her intention to managing up with greater ease. And being a collaborator. She’s like, look, she started laughing. Like, look, I’m stepping into make decisions where it’s not appropriate, when it was time to do a reorganization plan with her peer who also can make decisions if you stepped in to settle the strategy. So, she wasn’t sharing with her boss, her frustration, and what they can do together to change things. And she was thinking about leaving, which would have been a massive, massive financial hit to the organization. So, when she looked at this live, she paused to get real with herself to see what’s feasible. That’s what I call possibility, she could see something for what it is not what she preferred. So, what she got clear is then she could put herself in the driver’s seat of choice or what I call opportunity to see practically and pragmatically what she needs to stop and start doing to create a new outcome. So as a result of that, then she was able to have a conversation with her boss set strategy differently, and then emerge more critically, as a leader of the division and then longer term, actually, her colleague welled up getting let go, because he couldn’t make decisions. 

Maria Ross  37:08

Right. And what I love about what you’re saying, is the reason why we have to bring emotions into our work, we have to stop this idea of being emotionless as leaders and emotionless at work because we are human beings. And it impacts the way we observe things, it impacts the actions we take, as leaders. And so I love that part of your work is helping your clients understand and recognize the emotions they are feeling as part of the process where you might have a leader going, it doesn’t matter how I feel this is what’s actually happening. But we don’t function that way. As human beings, we bring our emotions to our work if the pandemic has taught us anything, if, you know, social unrest has taught us anything is we cannot park our humanity at the office door. And then just be automatons as we lead or as we work. And so helping people understand the practical reason why you have to have emotional intelligence as a leader, because it helps you make better decisions. It helps you understand your actions and helps you understand cause and effect. So I’m just loving this example that you’re giving because a different coach, or you know, possibly might say, well, it’s all about just the inputs and outputs of the structure of the organization and how decisions are made. And the answer is that your boss needs to be fired because they can’t make decisions. Well, it’s very cold. It’s very just like that’s not how we interact as humans.

  Esther Weinberg  38:44

Well, I’d say a couple of things that one is you have to remember that emotions are signposts about what’s important to

Maria Ross  38:50

Yes. 

  Esther Weinberg  38:51

Second thing is that I find, for example, there was a program that we were leading inside of a company, and we had 22 people on and they were saying retired people of our people in this company complaining, which was funny, because one could say that they were complaining, but they were saying we’re tired.

Maria Ross  39:10

We’re planning we’re complaining about other people complaining.

  Esther Weinberg  39:13

What if you saw a complaint is not a complaint, but what someone is really committed to. If you heard it as a commitment, then how would it shift your actions of what you’re willing, of how you’re willing to see the situation and the assumptions that you’re making? That really may not be valid anymore? So, I think that you know, it’s an interesting thing, because there’s so much body of work now what you’re talking about regarding emotions, but it’s really a it’s, they’re not soft skills anymore. 

Maria Ross  39:51

I wish that that phrase would just be burned in effigy, but hundred percent with you.

  Esther Weinberg  39:56

You’re actually you know, you know, this organ if you really boil look down organizations invest, if you really boil it down the the money to train and develop people, it all comes down to the soft, these inherent soft skills that people are talking about that are very, very concrete. And so, people be fired over some of the things that you and I are talking about, if not done right anymore these days. So, it’s it’s critically, it’s critically important. But I think it’s important for people to know that your emotions are signposts, but they’re not actually your emotions don’t, it’s not that they are true or not. You have to actually ground them in to see whether or not your emotions are telling you the truth, or they’re leading you in a direction of something that’s important to you. So, it’s important that you’re able to develop the facility to be able to step back to be able to do that, because then you can leave much more impactful.

Maria Ross  41:01

Amen. I mean, that’s really where it comes down to. And, you know, you really answered my question I was going to ask you, which is how our emotions, our body and our language impact our performance in a real and substantive way. Because they are signposts, they are, you know, when you when you’re emotionally intelligent enough and emotionally capable enough to look, you know, and I work on this every day. I’m not saying this is like a guru on high that has mastered this in my life. But someone I’m always struck something I’m always striving to do is to is to look at my emotions and say, well, what is that telling me about the situation? You know, you brought up the issue before about frustrated, it’s not just about frustration, it’s about someone feeling heartbroken, or, or someone feeling like trust has been broken. And I’m dealing with a situation with an organization that I’m involved with, where that’s exactly why I’m having those emotions of resentment and anger and frustration, it’s because I feel like they let me down. And I am heartbroken at my my trust and stability in them being broken.

  Esther Weinberg  42:05

That’s it’s a, what you’re talking about is so powerful. Because when you can distinguish as an example of the executive that I mentioned before, we she was showing up and and really battling, how, how does she navigate a situation that’s untenable with a strategy that’s in the wrong direction, where there is where there’s a lack of cohesiveness, there’s a lack of messaging, there’s, there’s a lack of alignment, I can go on and on and on. But what we really got to do is that she took this job, because of who this person was to her, because she thought she would be a mentor, that she’d be a teacher that she’d be a guide. So she was heartbroken.

Maria Ross  42:54

Yeah, it feels she feels let down. 

  Esther Weinberg  42:54

Yes, but at the end of the day, it’s interesting, because she learned a lot, not the way that she thought. And so and so it’s a lot different to say you’re frustrated than say you’re heartbroken, which is, I think the essence of what you’re talking about. And that leads to like what Dr. Susan David talks about emotional granularity, which is if we can get people to really talk about it, then we can really address the real issues. And we can move people faster through performance that way.

Maria Ross  43:27

So, I this is a question I wasn’t expecting to ask you. But given this juicy conversation, how do we how do we help leaders talk through emotion in a more constructive way, especially those leaders that shy away from talking about emotion in the context of creating strategies in the context of doing what needs to be done? Do you have any sort of gems of advice around how you get more comfortable as a leaderz, managing and dealing with emotions, both your own and potentially the emotions of the people on your team?

  Esther Weinberg  44:06

Well, I would say that it’s it’s, it’s not as you’re a sum game. So, there’s not like a pill for the ill. But I would say that is a few things. One is that for executives that are very driven by return on investment, if they are able to get to the bottom line to the to the cause and not the effect, then they’re actually able to get to performance a lot faster. So, if you’re able to get really smart about the questions you ask, then you’re actually able to get to the performance and the output a lot faster. So, there’s a gentleman named Coolio Alala, who talks a lot about the fact that it’s about the question, it’s not about the answer. And so, one is to is to have leaders orient themselves around their level of curiosity and questioning. As a method to get your performance to get to the level of performance that they truly want. The second thing is to also understand part of it too, like I’ve had people say to me during the pandemic, I’m not a therapist, you’re asking me to be a therapist, I got no want to come in and hear people’s emotions. And, you know, I always say to them, Take five minutes, and just do it. Because at the end of the day, that’s what’s going to engage people, not anything else. So, it’s also helping leaders measure the ROI. If they’re actually putting in, let’s say, touch points of the beginning of their meetings, what’s something we want to celebrate, getting people to talk about how they’re feeling as a result of certain changes, and then absolutely, taking a look at their performance visa vie the quarter before where they didn’t do any of it. That’s a way to also have proof in it. But it’s, it’s really, I would say, you have to connect it with your value system. I’ve had leaders were talking about emotions. And so, off the table, I can’t even tell you. But when you connect it, for example, like someone who’s I said to an executive, once I said you have interest in people and she started laughing, she’s like, that’s not true. And I said, it is true. We did some assessments. And I’m like, you’re all about ROI. I said, so if you’re all about ROI, then your conversations all a better return on investment, you invest 10 minutes in talking to this person about what their experience is how they were thinking about this project, about the about this issue, how they were setting strategy, what they felt about it in the meantime, and how they oriented themselves to it, I guarantee you that that will give you a greater output. And she did, but she you had to tie it in for her around the fact that she’s all about return on investment, not giving for the sake of giving. I know sounds horrible. But

Maria Ross  46:55

No, I just I love the way you’ve articulated this, because this is exactly what I struggled with. articulating that it it is it is your job. As a leader, your job as a leader is not to do the same things that you did as a worker, you are now leading people, there’s a there’s a different skill set involved. And yes, it involves being interested in your people. So, you can empower them, and engage them and help them do their best work. That is your job as a leader. It’s not, you know, whatever the function is that you’re leading. And so, it’s it’s I often joke about like, it’s why you’re getting paid more. That’s why you have a title now that’s, that’s bigger, it’s because it is expected of you. So, I love the way that you articulated that. And again, helping people deal with that emotion by tying it back to performance by tying it back to that is your ultimate goal is to help your team perform. And if that is your ultimate goal and your value, then we are going to have to deal with with the messiness of humanity. Esther, this has been such a great conversation, I want to talk to you longer, but I know I have to let you go. So just quickly for folks on the go, we’re gonna have all your links in the show notes, and especially the link to your book, better leaders, better people better results, six eye opening strategies to thrive through change you didn’t ask for which is a fabulous subtitle. We’re gonna have a link to that as well for folks. But for folks on the go, where’s the best place that they can find out more about you and your work? 

  Esther Weinberg  48:30

It’s really super simple. Just go to our website, the ready R E A D Y zone Z O N E.com.

Maria Ross  48:39

Wonderful and it’s a great it’s a great website, great resources there. Thank you again for your time, Esther and for for helping helping us figure out how to be leaders that can adapt to any change it like we talked about and the best of times and the worst of times.

  Esther Weinberg  48:55

Thank you so much, Marie, I really appreciate you.

Maria Ross  48:57

And thank you for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge dear listener. If you like what you heard, of course, as always, please share it with a colleague or a friend. Don’t forget to rate and review on the podcast player of your choice. And until next time, always remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. 

If you’ve ever experienced the healthcare system due to a medical emergency or a chronic illness, then you know the system is often set up to deliver cookie cutter outputs based on inputs. There is little room for “true empathy” even though many healthcare professionals want to help people. In healthcare – and in our workplaces and organizations – we tend to get empathy wrong! Empathy is not about being nice, quickly easing someone’s pain or solving their problem. Empathy is about being with someone, deeply listening, and adapting based on their history, context and point of view. That’s how you find root causes and effectively and collaboratively solve problems for the long term – rather than band-aiding challenges for the short term.

It was a joy today to speak to functional nutritionist, Andrea Nakayama. We discuss how a personal tragedy when she was just 7 weeks pregnant led her to the work of empowering health practitioners to rethink nutrition, systems and care protocols. Andrea shares what the Empathy Trap is and why so many of us fall into it, leading to negative results.  Tune in if you say you’re empathetic but constantly feel anxious and overwhelmed! We discuss how to balance empathy with personal boundaries through her ART framework for patient care – which is a powerful tool for any leader in any industry. Andrea also shared her perspective on the health conversations coming out of the pandemic around mental health and wellness. I had such an epiphany  in this interview about HOW we can show empathy without losing ourselves – and how to problem solve with empathy – take a listen!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

 Key Takeaways:

• In functional nutrition and functional medicine, it is about creating a therapeutic partnership, looking for root causes, and taking a systems based approach.
• Doctors do not get a lot of nutrition training in medical school. They can’t know what they don’t know and, a lot of the time, they are not willing to make recommendations they cannot follow up on or know how to follow up on.
• In health care, the training is about the x for the y. We need to broaden our perspective of what healthcare is, how people have access, and understand that the solution is multidimensional.

“Oftentimes, we overlap the problem and the solution, we spend five minutes on the problem and 45 minutes on the solution. And we actually have to flip that: When we spend more time in the assessment, we better understand our road to a sustainable solution.” —  Andrea Nakayama

About Andrea Nakayama, Functional Nutritionist

As the host of the 15-Minute Matrix Podcast and the founder of Functional Nutrition Alliance, Andrea is leading thousands of students and practitioners around the globe in a revolution to offer better solutions to the growing chronic illness epidemic. By highlighting the importance of systems biology, root cause methodology, and therapeutic partnerships, she helps historically underserved individuals reclaim ownership of their health.

References Mentioned:

Rhonda Manns, The Empathy Edge podcast, Design Thinking in Healthcare – and Beyond

Connect with Andrea Nakayama:

Website: https://andreanakayama.com

FX Nutrition: https://www.fxnutrition.com/about-andrea/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreanakayama/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AndreaNakayama.page

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreanakayama/

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

If you’ve ever experienced the healthcare system due to a medical emergency or a chronic illness, then you know, the system is often set up to deliver cookie cutter outputs based on inputs. There’s little room for true empathy. Even though many health care professionals truly want to help people in health care and in our workplaces and organizations, we tend to get empathy wrong. Empathy is not about being nice or quickly easing someone’s pain or solving their problem. Empathy is about being with someone deeply listening and adapting based on their history, context and point of view. That’s how you find root causes and effectively and collaboratively solve problems for the long term. Rather than band aiding challenges for the short term. It was a joy to speak to functional nutritionist Andrea Nakayama as the host of the 15-minute matrix podcast, and the founder of functional nutrition alliance. Andrea is leading 1000s of students and practitioners around the globe in a revolution to offer better solutions to the growing chronic illness epidemic. By highlighting the importance of systems biology, root cause methodology and therapeutic partnerships, she helps historically underserved individuals reclaim ownership of their health. We discuss how a personal tragedy when she was just seven weeks pregnant led her to the work of empowering health practitioners to rethink nutrition systems and care protocols. Andrea shares what the empathy trap is, and why so many of us fall into it, leading to negative results. Tune in if you say you’re empathetic, but constantly feel anxious and overwhelmed. We discuss how to balance empathy with personal boundaries, through her art (A R T) framework for patient care, which is a powerful tool for any leader in any industry. Andrea also shared her perspective on the health conversations coming out of the pandemic around mental health and wellness. I had such an epiphany in this interview about how we can show empathy without losing ourselves and how to problem solve with empathy. Take a listen.

Maria Ross  03:31

Big welcome Andrea Nakayama, welcome to the empathy edge podcast to talk about.

 Andrea Nakayama  03:36

Thank you, Maria. 

Maria Ross  03:37

To talk about medicine and nutrition and the empathy trap and so many exciting things that I think are gonna be really useful for people, not only from a work perspective, but for their personal lives. So, I’m really excited to have this conversation.

 Andrea Nakayama  03:52

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I think I was telling you, I’ve been a fan. So, I’m here to talk about empathy.

Maria Ross  03:59

I love it. I love it. Okay, so tell us a little bit about your story. You’re the founder of functional nutrition Alliance. You work with 1000s of students and practitioners around the globe. Tell us a little bit about your story and the work that you do what like what is functional nutrition? And also, what led you to this work?

 Andrea Nakayama  04:19

Yeah, so I guess I’ll start with the latter question. First, because I worked in a completely different career. I worked in book publishing for 15 years until my husband Isamu was diagnosed with a glioblastoma multiforme a that’s a very aggressive stage for brain tumor. And he was diagnosed when I was just seven weeks pregnant with our only child. So, we hadn’t even announced to anybody that we were pregnant yet. And we were first then letting them know that we had a brain tumor. So, what we experienced during that time, well was really phenomenal care at UCSF, we were in San Francisco at the time. And UCSF has one of the best brain tumor centers. So, we got phenomenal care. But it was a really big wake up in our early 30s, to world of real live medicine, you know, not just going for a flu or a cold or a broken arm, but really being entrenched in the system. And there were a number of wake ups for me during that period, which included watching my husband, my beloved treated like his diagnosis alone, instead of with the empathy and understanding that he was a young man who was about to be a father, and was a husband, and a brother, and a son, and a friend, and a software developer, and all of the things and a musician, all of the things he was, we’re not really included in the care of him. To the extent that I saw people coming in, you know, in turns, looking at only the stitches on his head from his craniotomy, rather than speaking to him. So that was a big wake up for me. Our son who was given about six months to live, so not expected to see our son born. And he lived almost two and a half years. So yeah, we were able to extend his life through a lot of the things that I think of as my kind of boot camp in nutrition, I was looking into what can we influence in a situation where we still need to hand ourselves over to medical intervention to surgeries, and radiation and chemotherapy, and all of the above. And so that was like boot camp for me in terms of, there are other ways to support health care, that are not being delivered to us that are not being recommended. And that or not, nobody’s actually diving into it. So, we saw lives two and a half years, he passed away when our son was 19 months old. And I then continued to pursue this passion for nutrition. And there were other events, friends that encountered health challenges that made me realize this was my calling. And I put myself back through school, and I found my way through lots of nutrition study to the practice of functional medicine. And functional nutrition to answer your original question is in keeping with the practices of functional medicine, and three of the primary tenants of a functional practice, that I like to anchor on, are that we are creating a therapeutic partnership that we’re looking for the root causes, not one root cause but root causes, and that we’re taking a systems-based approach. And that systems-based approach for me is based on systems biology, meaning the gut and the brain are connected, the hormones and the liver are connected, but also systems thinking, how do we apply mental models to complex chronic cases, so that we can still bring empathy and care no matter what somebody is facing. So there’s the long journey and the quick, the quick, like summation of what is a functional practice.

Maria Ross  08:41

Wow. And, you know, you and I were talking about, you know, experiences I love the way you said it, my first experience in the system of health care, without just going to my like, my yearly physical. And that was kind of it for me with my brain aneurysm was I used to just go to the doctor, once a year, I had the easiest health care history that took like 20 seconds to give people. Now it’s done done that, you know, it’s like a litany of stuff now, ever since I had my brain aneurysm and multiple surgeries. But yeah, it’s that first experience in this system that you completely don’t understand. And, you know, I was fortunate enough that at least my experience was a fairly good one, except for a few mishaps and I wrote about it in my book rebooting my brain, but the idea of patient and family centered care, which seems sort of ridiculous that it’s a new thing. But, you know, putting the patient and the family at the center of the care experience and a big part of that, as we’ve talked about, is to operationalize empathy. Meaning, you don’t just rely on hiring really nice people. It’s what are we doing with our systems? What are we doing with our policies with our training with our communication? Are we thinking about the patient journey? Are we thinking about the patient’s feelings? And are we measured and rewarded based on that? So, you know, that’s how even the largest, most bureaucratic organizations like the hospital where I had my care, which was University of Washington Medical Center, they’re able to do that. And that was, like I mentioned to you my first sort of seed of like empathy applied to business and applied to larger organizations. And, you know, your experience, my experience created something positive for me, sounds like your experience, in the end created something very positive for you, because you’re impacting 1000s of people all over the world to basically ensure they don’t get treated the way you and your husband got treated when he was having his care. 

 Andrea Nakayama  10:34

Yeah, and again, like he was treated in some ways, really, really well, I think that we are part of our medical system is an x for y system, this is what’s going on, this is what we do about it. And that works about 80% of the time, but there are 20% of the population, there is 20%, for whom there needs to be more, I would say that 80% also needs more. And as we saw through the pandemic, and as we age, that 80% becomes the 20%. So it’s a constantly growing population that needs more than we are able to deliver in the system of care. And one of the things I wanted to reflect Maria is you talk about patient centered care. And I have a lot of nurses that come through my training, that are kind of fed up with the system because they went in wanting patient centered care, and aren’t able to deliver it. And the fun for me in training, you know, hundreds of nurses, registered nurses and nurse practitioners that are looking for a revitalization of their career is that they are still stuck in the X for the why they don’t want to be in the X for the Y. And by that I mean, you have Ms. You have Hashimotos here’s what we do you have lupus, here’s what we do you have cancer, here’s what we do. But that is what they’ve been trained into. And I have to disentangle that to get them back to what they actually want, but have no training in. And so

Maria Ross  12:18

Exactly.

 Andrea Nakayama  12:19

We just don’t teach our providers to be in not just the care, empathy, but the clinical empathy.

Maria Ross  12:28

Absolutely. And I think another piece of that is the expectations of patients, as well, because it should be you know, we live in a society of instant gratification. And instant I can Google an answer, right? Yeah. And so when a medical emergency arises, it’s will immediately tell me the cause and tell me the prescription? Yes. And so I think a lot of that is also pressure on, you know, just our society, in our culture, not being willing to have that patients and in some cases, you know, to be fair, not being able to have the resources to be patient with that, what might be a longer journey and a more in depth journey to figure out what is going on for people. So it’s almost like every side loses in that equation.

 Andrea Nakayama  13:12

Yes, yes. And one of the things I try to really help the providers that I’m training understand is this isn’t about playing Doctor, this is about serving the doctor, because our patients do expect more from our doctors than they’re actually trained to do. We’re asking them to do things that are out of scope. So I’ll talk to patients who are like my doctor says my diet has nothing to do with x. And I’m like, they get 17 hours of nutrition training in there nearly 70,000 hours of training, we can’t expect them to know what they don’t know. And in times, they’re not going to make recommendations that they don’t know how to follow up on and Bravo. Like, let’s have empathy for the perspective they’re coming from. For me, the work that we do as functional nutrition counselors is a yes. And there’s gaps in our healthcare system. And we need to fill those gaps.

Maria Ross  14:11

Is your field of functional nutrition different than just basic nutritionist?

 Andrea Nakayama  14:16

Thousand percent.

Maria Ross  14:17

And what is that difference?

 Andrea Nakayama  14:19

We are looking so I have a lot of systems that help us to understand what are we doing so it is in keeping with the therapeutic partnerships. So that’s empathy, education, empowerment of the patient to be a better advocate for themselves. It’s understanding the root causes. So, we’re not just asking what do I do that x for y, we’re asking why is this happening? So, if you have an autoimmune condition, what are the roots of autoimmunity that we should be looking at so that we work in the soil, not just in the x for y and I can talk more about that. And then I have a functional nutrition matrix that helps us understand what I call the story, the soup and the skill, the patient’s story is their antecedent. So, their genetics, their cultural background, the triggers throughout their life, whether those are traumatic events or even, you know, grad school could be traumatic, all different sorts of things that could be food poisoning, or a car accident, or some kind of neglect or abuse or a divorce or whatever. Looking at those triggers in life that have impacted us physiologically, even if we haven’t put the pieces together. And our mediators are the things that help us feel better or worse that we know. And our job is to help to amplify the number of mediators we’re aware of. So, what do I know for myself as a patient helps me feel better, or makes me feel worse, that’s very empowering, when I understand that. So, the story is really diving into who are you. The soup, as I like to call it is that systems biology, it’s that understanding that everything in the body is connected to each other. And so, we’re not just saying, “oh, you have X V Y”. We’re really understanding the connections and how we make recommendations based on that deep assessment. And the skill, what we’re recommending has different areas, you know, from sleep and relaxation, exercise and movement, nutrition and hydration, stress and resilience relationships, we’re understanding how does the work around that relate to everything we understand about the individual. So culturally, we’re understanding their background, we’re not telling two people to eat the same diet or saying keto works for everybody, or everybody should be intermittent fasting, right? That’s just not physiologically true. So, we’re bringing empathy to bio individuality, which is that biochemical understanding of the individual.

Maria Ross  17:05

You know, as you’re talking, I just can’t help seeing parallels between so many other interviews and other research that I’ve done around empathy, even just an interview I did this morning around modern leadership and modern cultures in the workplace. And so much of it is about making people slow down, and really understand context and individuality. 

 Andrea Nakayama  17:29

Yeah. 

Maria Ross  17:29

And so I’m just struck by the parallels of everything you’re saying. I mean, I know you’re talking specifically about nutrition and health. But it really speaks to the skills that all leaders in any kind of workplace.

 Andrea Nakayama  17:42

Yes. 

Maria Ross  17:42

Need to be able to shore up if they want to really be effective leaders in the 21st century, and that is about, there’s no cookie cutter solutions, we have to obviously, we have to operationalize and process eyes, whatever we can, for efficiency sake. You know, especially in larger organizations that scale, but at the same time, we need to understand that there are always exceptions to those rules. And we need to be okay with understanding that individuals thrive in different environments. We’re going through this right now, with the whole return to office versus work from home. There’s actually a lot of people who thrived, working from home, especially a lot of people from underrepresented communities, marginalized communities, they had a lot of pressure taken off of them, they weren’t experiencing daily, you know, micro aggressions, and racism in their in their work life, and they actually performed really well working from home gives other people that, you know, really appreciated from a neuro diversity standpoint, the lack of distractions when they’re at home, you know. And so, I think that that’s really the key going forward for our culture and our society, work or not, is that we’re finally we’re finally waking up. I wouldn’t say we’re there yet. We’re not exactly woken up to it. But this idea that everyone has different needs, and different experiences that need to be held into account in order for everyone to thrive and for everyone to reach the goals they’re trying to reach. So no, that’s like, super lofty, but no, that is what was coming up for me as you were talking.

 Andrea Nakayama  19:12

And that’s where I like to take the practice the clinical practice to that place where we’re actually reframing the way we’re thinking about healthcare. And we’re recognizing that there are gaps that don’t serve the individual needs. And for me, when I talk about that systems-based approach, and I talk about mental models, it’s that understanding that you’re talking about that even though we’re bringing bio individuality and that understanding of each person, how do we work in a systems based approach that helps us to do our work efficiently and make the appropriate recommendations so that every time even though every patient or client is a new interaction, what are the systems we use to categorize and understand. And you know, in meant model thinking, Aristotle is who is attributed to first principle thinking. Right? First Principle thinking is get to the essence and categorize. So, you can problem solve complex questions. And for me, that’s what it’s all about how do we amplify and scale the ability to bring individualized care to health care, because it’s missing. It is missing, no matter how much care people are bringing in right settings, they’re just not thinking through the individualized realm. And those are different things like the compassion is different than the critical thinking, that helps the individual on a long-term healing journey.

Maria Ross  20:44

I love it. I love it. I actually interviewed a nurse back in June […] who works on design thinking in health care, and she is a former nurse. And she really helps pull the right information and you know, bedside experience out of nurses to apply it to complex problems in the healthcare system. Yeah, you know, in her view, and I’ll put a link in the show notes to her episode, because it was all about, you know, being able to tap into this resource of nurses being able to help problem solve the business challenges. Yeah, and making sure that that was recognized because they’re on the ground with the patients experiencing this day to day, and they know the solutions that will help. And so, you know, even even in the situation you’re describing, where, even if you get someone to be thinking about what is the individualized approach I can take with this patient? Are they supported by the systems in the environment, wherever they work, that they can deliver that they might not, they might know what the right thing to do is, but they’re unable to do it.

 Andrea Nakayama  21:47

Right. And I think it’s why a lot of people are leaving the system, I think it is going to take a both and and I’m a real stand for making sure that everybody has access to the type of the type of care that I’m teaching and talking about. So, it doesn’t have to be restricted to your means. I’m not talking about shopping at whole foods, I’m talking about a reframe, and a way into how we actually think about the care we give ourselves between our doctor’s visits. So, if we’re not in the hospital, like you said, we may see our doctor once a year, twice a year, maybe every three months, if we have a chronic condition, there’s a lot of care that can happen in between those, those visits. And that’s where patients need to be empowered to see that they actually do have an influence. And this isn’t about right or wrong. It’s not about bad or good. We have to again, understand, you know, this person who’s being recommended that they let’s say again, go on a ketogenic diet doesn’t have a gallbladder and can’t digest fats, that won’t work, or they have a history of disordered eating. And we don’t want to be too restrictive. And those are the elements that are not only missing from health care. We don’t understand that history often. But understanding from nutrition, that understanding is lacking from nutrition, right hair as well.

Maria Ross  23:16

Well, I love this, we could probably do a whole a whole three episodes on nutrition and health care. So many questions. But I did want to get to this thing that you talk about which really intrigues me, and is one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show, which is the empathy trap, and why so many wellness practitioners from physicians to psychologists fall into it with their patients. So, can you tell us what you mean about but by the empathy trap? Yeah, I

 Andrea Nakayama  23:43

have identified a number of gaps and traps that I see in healthcare and that traps are the places where well-meaning practitioners fall and can’t get out of so I actually the very first module of my training used to be on empathy. And I found I had to remove it because people don’t think they don’t have empathy. They think that they’re, you know, health care providers think that they have all the empathy they need, and they don’t need any training in it. And my message was, you’re doing empathy, all wrong, you’re doing you know, being influenced by your client or patient’s pain and then unable to solve their problem, and then their pain doesn’t get better. And you’re caught in this trap of trying to fix somebody in situations that are more complex than that. Also, in my field, if people are working outside the system, meaning they’re solopreneurs I see a lot of people giving away their services or not really advocating for themselves in a business way, which is another way that they think I’m overly empathetic. I have too much empathy. By as you and I discussed and why I’m a fan of your podcast is because I really believe that there is a way to do empathy that helps us to, again back to the mental models systematize and catch ourselves in the desire to go what I call becoming the bridge, instead of building the bridge.

Maria Ross  25:22

Oh my gosh, exactly, exactly. And this is the thing I hear over and over from, from different leaders who do identify as empathic or being overly empathetic. And I did a whole thing on social media a couple months ago, where I was like, I think people are abusing the word empathy. And they’re using it as an excuse to be completely honest and direct and mean to people. So, you know, be careful when you say, you’re empathetic. And you know, of course, writing a book and having a podcast, everyone comes up to me, and they’re like, oh, I’m so glad you did this, because I’m an empath. And I’ve struggled right, you know, but you hear the struggles of, of leaders and and contributors who want to bring their natural empathy to the workplace to a business context, but feel like they will lose themselves as a result. And especially when I when I talk to health care companies, when I’m doing leadership workshops, for example, it’s, I feel like I’m too empathetic. And I am tired all the time. I’m overworked. I’m stressed, I take on my patients’ problems and their emotions, and all of that. And that’s exactly to your point. That’s actually not empathy. That’s submission acquiescence. I don’t know. The trap. Trap. Yeah. And so the most important piece I’d love for you to talk about is, you know, when I when I talked to them about that, it’s about being confident enough to set boundaries, and you can still be empathetic within those guardrails. So can you talk about how you work with practitioners on how to stabilize their empathy so that it doesn’t consume them?

 Andrea Nakayama  26:57

Yeah, I think I, the acronym I have is art, assess, recommend and track and our assessments are very deep. So, we’re actually honing the empathy by seeing the real individual, as opposed to feeling like we’re rushing in to fix them. Those are two different things. So, the irony in what you’re talking about, is that we’re empathic and we’re feeling so we want to fix, fix, and hold and help. But then we’re actually not in a place where we can help, because we haven’t stepped back in order to actually see who is this and what do they need from me. So, the matrix that I’ve created, helps us to not just see the story, the soup in the skill. So again, who is this what’s going on with them physiologically, and what are their actions, but then put another layer on top of it, and those layers are there, situational, cultural, sociological, environmental, psychological, emotional, habitual, and genetic. And there are ways that the world has impacted those aspects of the person, like you talked about with micro aggressions, and there are ways that that person responds to those insults or impacts or whatever we want to call them. And we our job and being truly empathetic and seeing the individual is stepping back in order to collect that information. So that we’re not making assumptions. I don’t care how empathetic we think we are, there is a lot of information to gather from a person, and they will feel so appreciated to be heard, as opposed to being served in a way or that they you think you’re pleasing them, as opposed to actually I should say we call it serving not pleasing. So, I think empathy often goes into the I’m going to please them because I think I know what they need. I am empathetic, but we haven’t really assessed. And so, stepping back and looking at those different areas. As an example, if I look at the situation, a lot of my students will get eager to dive in if somebody has a cancer diagnosis.  What do I do for this kind of cancer? What kind of nutrition what kind of diet and lifestyle modification, and we have to step back and look at the situation? Have they gone through surgery? Have they had organs or tissue removed? That might be a priority situationally before we’re addressing the fact that yes, this person has cancer. And that’s true of every one of those areas if we step back and allow ourselves to assess instead of assume.

Maria Ross  29:24

Right.  Great, so that’s the A in the acronym. 

 Andrea Nakayama  29:59

A is assess, the R is recommend. So, we only make recommendations once we’ve done a very, very thorough assessment of who we’re talking to, and what’s going on. And the T is for tracking. And that tracking leads us backs in a circular way to assess. And I would say that’s a great way of practicing empathy in the way that I’m talking about it, that’s clinically useful, because we are always in that therapeutic partnership. We’re not making assessments based on a seven-minute conversation, we’re spending the time to fully understand making recommendations based on that that are appropriate for them culturally, sociologically, socioeconomically based on everything, and then we’re tracking how’d that go for you, and we’re in that relationship. To me, that’s empathy and care. 

Maria Ross  30:56

Okay, you could do business trainings on that on art. Because I think that is the key whether you are in healthcare or not, this idea of assessing, stepping back and assessing and not assuming, and then recommending based on that specific situation, and then tracking what I call the checking in after. You know, the follow up the, you know, if you’re, if you’re taking it in terms of like a dei initiative or something, what are the results? What are we, you know, where are we how are people feeling that you should take that to businesses and leaders, because

 Andrea Nakayama  31:32

I’ve been able to build a business.

Maria Ross  31:35

Right? 

 Andrea Nakayama  31:35

Why I’ve been able to build a business and an online school, because that same thinking, I’m always telling my team, we have to separate the problem from the solution. Oftentimes, we overlap the problem and the solution, we spend five minutes on the problem, and 45 minutes on the solution. And we actually have to flip that when we spend more time in the assessment, we better understand our road to a sustainable solution.

Maria Ross  32:05

I love it. Oh, my gosh. You have so many great quotes in this. I don’t even know what we’re going to use. But I want to get back to this because again, the role of empathy in this why this is an empathetic approach is because as you said, most people are doing empathy wrong. And so, empathy is not just being nice, it’s not just agreeing with people. And it is, you know, at its core empathy is is being with someone, but it’s also a method of information gathering so that you can understand their point of view and their experience. And that requires a lot more listening than it does talking. It implies a lot more assessment than it does solving. Right. So, all of this is just like blowing my mind, because it’s just so closely linked to this idea of like, if if you’re doing these things, you are also being empathetic. 

 Andrea Nakayama  32:56

Yeah. 

Maria Ross  32:57

And you can still feel with someone you can still, but the important parts of empathy are not the give the person what they want, or ease their pain, that’s actually not the most important part of empathy. The most important part of empathy is allowing somebody to be seen and heard and listened to and valued and they don’t feel alone and they feel like you are really focusing on them. That’s, that’s the empathy we’re talking about. And so, I just, I don’t even know where I’m going with that. I’m just so excited by what you just shared. And I’ll just say yes, yes. And what do you what do you say to, you know, in your world, it’s practitioners and wellness professionals. But again, anyone who is saying like, I’m so overwhelmed and stressed because I’m so empathetic. Are you helping them apply this? This model? Yeah, I think what you’re really doing is not empathy, what you’re feeling is a lack of boundaries. 

 Andrea Nakayama  33:53

absolutely. And again, as a teacher, you know, as somebody who’s instructing so many people and a leader in the field, I actually had to take that training and move it to much later because people aren’t ready to hear it until they have some of the tools in their hands to use that actually help them to see the reframe. So, they’re still caught, we are caught in our confirmation bias of who we are and how we believe we’re empathetic and that that’s serving us and that’s part of our, it’s, it’s part of who we are. It’s this huge part of people’s identities, especially in the wellness industry, that they’re empathetic. And I think it’s hard for them to hear that they’re doing it wrong until they have some tools and can see and practice it differently. So that was an interesting experience for me to realize this is where this is a number one, like empathy and leadership are where we have to start in clinical care. But wait a minute. People need to start with digestion because they actually can and even hear me in the importance of this until they have some other tools and understanding in place. So, I’m constantly reframing the way that they’re thinking and the teaching, and in, you know, live q&a opportunities, but it’s hard work to get practice. 

Maria Ross  35:18

It’s hard. But you know what, that is empathetic, right there is you’re meeting people where they are. That’s that’s the point of what we’re trying to say. It’s not just giving people what they want. It’s assessing and hearing what they’re saying, and then figuring out a way to meet them where they are. So that’s the way you’re designing your curriculum and your work is empathetic. I want to talk about this kind of a curveball question, which I like to do sometimes, depending on where the conversation goes, with all the with all the advice. And let me let me reframe this. The silver lining, which I hate saying of the pandemic is one of the Silver Linings is that we are finally talking about mental health. We are talking about worker burnout, we’re talking about overwhelm, we’re talking about the crisis in child care, we’re talking about all the stressors that have come to the forefront, because of COVID. There’s also been a lot of prescription around that, like what companies have done to help with the mental health of their employees or to help ease anxiety. I’m curious, given your expertise. Do you think that these organizations because they want so desperately to act and to help people now do you think they’re doing enough of the assessment, and the recommendation to determine if they’re even doing the right things and implementing the right policies and providing the right resources? And the I have no bias on the answer? I’m just Yes. What No, it’s a trick when you’re when you hear when you hear those lists, and you hear these reports about this is what companies are doing to combat you know, mental health issues. What do you think about that?

 Andrea Nakayama  36:55

I mean, I think it’s great that action is being taken, I think sometimes we have to act, and then be willing to shift what we’re doing. And so there were situations that called for some urgent and immediate action. And I think that that’s, that’s one thing in and of itself, my hope is that we then step back and look and assess. And I know that from my lens with a passion for people who have chronic health conditions that the pandemic also illuminated a lot about underlying conditions that we very quickly buried, we buried conversations about vitamin D. We buried conversations that were coming to the surface when we didn’t have answers. And then when we had a quick fix, got very quickly buried. And I’m not I have no stake either in what those supposing quick fixes are. I just believe that some things were being surfaced that deserve more attention, based on socioeconomic status based on racial status based on people with underlying conditions who are more susceptible, that we are not having any more I’m having, right we as a culture are no longer having. And so that concerns me how quickly we as a culture slip slide back into the quick fixes instead of the inquiry and investigation that lead us to more sustainable solutions. And there are more people now because of long haul situations experiencing what those with autoimmunity or chronic lyme, or any chronic conditions always have always experienced. And we’re still not talking about it appropriately, it’s getting more attention. But it’s not getting the kind of attention where we again ask why is this happening? Not just what do we do about it? And how do we actually bring a different kind of care and attention to that “why”. So, I think certain things surface to answer your question that were necessary, and got some immediate and urgent attention. And I think certain things just got, like, surfaced and got quickly buried again, that actually do need our consistent attention. And that I find frustrating from an empathy perspective. 

Maria Ross  37:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, you’ve mentioned before that, you know, a big part of why people are not getting the health care they need other than access and cost and all the problems that we have especially specific to this country, because I know this podcast is heard in other countries as well. Do you really believe that that lack of empathy or lack of the ability to apply empathy is the culprit to some of that?

 Andrea Nakayama  39:49

I think it’s a culprit. I never, you know, think there was one thing but I think yeah, I think it’s a culprit because I think empathy is trained out of for most of our medical providers, the kind of empathy we’re talking about, which is about curiosity and inquiry, because the training is about the X or the Y. And you know what that is fine, as long as we recognize the need for a new kind of or another kind of practitioner who can help in a different area. So, I think we just need to broaden our perspective of what healthcare is what a health care team is how we give people access to different kinds of support, that don’t necessarily have access. So I think the solution is multi-dimensional. And I’m just trying to do my part by training as many people as I can to go into their corners of the universe and address addiction and Cancer and Lyme and Alzheimer’s and ADHD and Autism and just go do their thing with the thinking and the training that hopefully, hopefully puts the systems for deep empathy back into a practice.

Maria Ross  41:08

I love it so applicable beyond health care beyond wellness. So, thank you so much for your insights today. We’ll have all your links in the show notes. But where you know, for people on the go, are exercising right now are going on their daily walk? where can folks connect with you and learn more about you?

 Andrea Nakayama  41:25

Yeah, thank you for asking, you can always find me at Andrea Nakayama.com. That’ll lead you to all the places. And if you’re interested in the training FX nutrition.com is a great place to go.

Maria Ross  41:38

Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today, Andrea. Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening. As always, I hope you enjoyed another thought-provoking podcast with a wonderful guest. Please make sure you’re telling friends and colleagues about the podcast and when you get a chance, please leave a rating and a review because those really help. In the meantime, until next time, remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. 

What is it like to go through life as a man, build a successful career, get married and have kids –  and then come out as a woman in your late 40’s? What is it like to experience life from a different gender vantage point? How is your culture creating an environment where diverse people of all backgrounds, such as trans individuals, can do their best work?

These are the questions we tackle today with my guest, culture and leadership consultant Cori Lovejoy. In October of 2020, Cori came out as a transgender woman and took a sabbatical to focus on her transition. Now, she is dedicating the next phase of her work to helping leaders create organizational cultures that are inclusive, diverse, equitable, welcoming, and ultimately more compassionate. She is motivated by a deep conviction that workplace cultures can contribute to employee well-being while achieving maximum organizational effectiveness and impact.

Today Cori shares her personal journey to coming out as trans, how it has impacted her life, and what she learned about white male privilege and how differently men and women are treated. We also share the important work your leaders and organization can do to create a more inclusive culture where smart, talented people in underrepresented groups can contribute fully to your success.

Take a listen but first a trigger warning: We discuss the topics of suicide, addiction, and eating disorders in this episode. If you’re facing mental health issues or thoughts of suicide, please dial 988 in the US or reach out for mental health services in your country.  Please take care of yourself.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

 Key Takeaways:

• Everybody has their own story, their own journey, and their own challenges. It is not for us to judge what others are going through, regardless of their stage of life.
• The way men and women are perceived in society is different. With the same behavior, men are perceived as assertive, women are perceived as aggressive. In most cases, this is unconscious bias, but it is happening every day.
• Respect is the key. Use people’s correct pronouns, affirm their gender identity, and trust that they know who they are.
• Learning to love yourself unconditionally, whether trans or cis, is a common human experience.

“Proximity, perspective taking, and personal work will unearth these biases, and make the unconscious biases conscious. And that takes a lot of introspection and personal work.”

—  Cori Lovejoy

About Cori Lovejoy , Culture and Leadership Consultant

In October of 2020, Cori came out as a transgender woman and took a sabbatical to focus on her transition. Now, she is dedicating the next phase of her work to helping leaders create organizational cultures that are inclusive, diverse, equitable, welcoming, and ultimately more compassionate. She is motivated by a deep conviction that workplace cultures can contribute to employee well-being while achieving maximum organizational effectiveness and impact.

As Director of Compassion for Brighton Jones, a wealth management company based in the Pacific Northwest of the US, Cori designed and led the company’s Mindfulness-based Emotional and Social Intelligence (MESI) program, established to support employees in becoming more compassionate through training in mindfulness, self-awareness, empathy, and compassion. Cori also led MESI workshops for other companies, local non-profits, as well as Brighton Jones clients. In addition, she co-founded and organized the Compassionate Leadership Summit, an annual conference centered on compassion and mindfulness that grew to over 500 participants and 50 presenters in less than two years, and she taught a course in Compassionate Leadership at Washington State University as a Teaching Associate Professor.

Before joining Brighton Jones in 2015, Cori spent over 15 years in various leadership roles within the wealth management industry and then several years as an independent leadership coach and organizational development consultant. She holds an MBA in wealth management and an MA in organizational leadership.

Connect with Cori Lovejoy:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/corilovejoy

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cory.custer.75

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cori.lovejoy/

Resources Mentioned:

The Empathy Edge podcast, Cori’s past interview (as Cory Custer) How a Compassionate Culture Leads to Success

Paula Stone Williams, TEDx talk: I’ve Lived as a Man and Woman. Here’s What I’ve Learned

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

What is it like to go through life as a man, build a successful career, get married and have kids and then come out as a woman in your late 40s? What is it like to experience life from different gender vantage points? How is your organizational culture, creating an environment where diverse people of all backgrounds such as trans individuals can do their best work? These are the questions we tackle today with my guest culture and leadership consultant Cori Lovejoy. Cori first joined us back in episode eight of the podcast nearly two years ago, when she was the director of compassionate Brighton Jones, a Seattle based wealth management company, and I featured the company and quarry in the book. Back then she went by Cory Custer, and presented as male. As director of compassion. She designed and led the company’s Mindfulness Based emotional and social intelligence or messy program, established to support employees and becoming more compassionate through training and mindfulness, self-awareness, empathy and compassion. Cori also led messy workshops for other companies, local nonprofits as well as clients. In addition, she co-founded and organized the Compassionate Leadership Summit, an annual conference centered on compassion and mindfulness that grew to over 500 participants and 50 presenters in less than two years. And she taught a course in Compassionate Leadership at Washington State University as a teaching associate professor in October of 2020. Cori came out as a transgender woman, and took a sabbatical to focus on her transition. Now she’s dedicating the next phase of her work to helping leaders create organizational cultures that are inclusive, diverse, equitable, welcoming and ultimately more compassionate. She’s motivated by a deep conviction that workplace cultures can contribute to employee well-being while achieving maximum organizational effectiveness and impact. Today, Cori shares her personal journey to coming out as trans, how it has impacted her life, and what she learned about white male privilege and how differently men and women are treated. We also share the important work your leaders and organization can do to create a more inclusive culture, where smart, talented people and underrepresented groups can contribute fully to your success. Take a listen. But first, a trigger warning. We discuss the topics of suicide, addiction and eating disorders in this episode. If you’re facing mental health issues or thoughts of suicide, please dial 988 in the US or reach out for mental health services in your own country. Please take care of yourself. Enjoy.  

Maria Ross  03:17

Welcome Cori Lovejoy to the empathy edge again, to the show you were one of my first guests. But you joined me as Cory Custer, Director of compassion at Brighton Jones. And now you are here as Cori Lovejoy a very different place in your life. Welcome to the show.

 Cori Lovejoy  04:26

Well, thank you so much. It’s It’s really exciting to be back. For me, it’s exciting. It’s a little bit nerve wracking, frankly, because I haven’t been really out in a in a professional context, very much. So, this all feels new in a way. And but it’s I love being on on this review. So, thank you for the invitation to come back.

Maria Ross  05:12

Well, and I know you and I could probably talk for hours about empathy and emotional intelligence, especially with your work around culture and creating inclusive environments. The great work you’ve done in over your career around really enabling people to be their best selves at work. And so that’s why I’m so interested in your story and your journey of your transition from being a man, you know, going through life as a man and now going through life as a woman. So, I want to just start with, when did you realize that this was who you really are, because you hear so many different stories from transgender individuals? I’m curious what your journey was like?

 Cori Lovejoy  05:52

Yeah, it’s a little bit complicated. Because in my story, is a little bit different than a lot of what I’ve understood a lot of transgender people saying. But throughout, the only thing I was conscious of through my entire life, and this goes back to. You know, my very earliest memories, is wanting to be a woman. I didn’t feel like a lot of trans women will say, I feel like I felt like a woman in a man’s body. Or they, you know, were they, they had this sort of feminine aspect to themselves. I didn’t have either of that all I had was this really strange kind of desire or attraction to the feminine and to women. And it just and for me, it, it always felt just because of the time and place, and family and my my family of origin. It just, it didn’t feel safe to ever say anything, it felt very shameful. So, I went through my life for 48 years living as a man thinking that I was a mentally ill cisgender heterosexual man, because I didn’t know I’ve never heard of anything like this where somebody who just like, wants to be a woman. I just felt like I just got dealt the wrong hand. And I really wish that had been born a woman. But that’s kind of, you know, that’s kind of all I was conscious of, until the summer of 2020. Right around the time, we probably first recorded the episode. I know, it came out in September, but but it and I talked about these other places, but I’ve been doing a lot of like deep personal work. And in the, in the span of about three weeks, it sort of dawned on me that I was a woman, I got my core. And that’s in that, that shifted everything because now I can actually really sort of sci fi in a way because when I Well, as soon as I kind of got my mind around that and just begin to accept that. That my, my past my history started to make sense. Memory started to fill in all these things that had happened suddenly made sense. It provided a context. And so, it’s like, rather than thinking I’m a mentally ill cisgender heterosexual man, I’m perfectly normal transgender woman. But that kind of awakening where I first started to accept myself as trans, to the time of coming out was was very tumultuous. It’s not like, I came out and I said, Oh, goody, I’m trans. I mean, it was very inconvenient truth. 

Maria Ross  08:42

And are married and have children,

 Cori Lovejoy  08:43

Married, children in you know, in a, in a, I didn’t I knew one other trans person. That’s it in my entire network. I knew I had my own biases about trans people. I I just felt stuck because I no longer could, there was just this huge dissonance I kind of knew what I now accepted as the truth, but also the thought of actually coming out. And living as a woman, presenting as a woman transitioning was just inconceivable to me at the time and it actually was really led to a lot of inner turmoil. And and then I got actually, frankly, really, really depressed and and we probably should put some trigger warnings on the episode but you know, got fairly suicidal at the time. And this was, you know, this was December of 2020. And so, but I finally, I had I had this kind of awakening this moment, this I call it an epiphany, or download or whatever. Then the night that I was my thinking had shifted from if I was going to kill myself to how I was going to kill my So, I had this epiphany and it said, you know, I heard it as like Cory, you’re, you’re clearly not afraid to die, which I didn’t feel afraid of. Why are you afraid to live? And that just kind of, like, busted me open. It’s like, that’s exactly what’s happening here. I’m afraid to live in my truth. And, and I’ve always kind of counted myself as sort of courageous and, and wanting to be out in the world, in my truth and, and authentically. And so, I kind of accepted the challenge, if you will, I slowly started to come out to friends to some close friends. And at that time, I didn’t say, Oh, I was a Trans. I’m a transgender woman. It was like, I didn’t know what I was. I mean, I didn’t I just I knew that something was going on. I didn’t, you know, I didn’t. I didn’t know what this was. But I started to I started to work with a therapist, and just slowly started to step into my feminine self. And it just each step of the way. It just felt, right. That’s the only way I’ve been able to describe it. People are like, how can you just, you know, what does it feel like to be out as trans or on hormones? Or I had I had bottom surgery at a vaginal plasti. Last November, like, what does it feel like in the I just can say, it feels just feels right? It feels like coming home? 

Maria Ross  11:26

I love that. Yeah. Now as you as you were going on this journey of trying to figure out what was going on? Was that was that a solitary journey? You mentioned that you reached out to some friends? Did you confide in your family at all?

 Cori Lovejoy  11:38

Yeah, I did. I did. It wasn’t a solitary journey, I have a very remarkable and amazing friend group, very supportive. And that was that was actually turned out to be life saving. But yeah, just started to come out to them kind of individually. And in that process, that in having those conversations and coming out, it helped me kind of like reach reached this conclusion of kind of what I was. And I did come out to my family, and at least my immediate family, my, my wife and my two children. And but you have to understand Maria at this time, it’s like it was it was really tumultuous on top of like, mental health issues, you know, depression, which I’ve always kind of struggled with, I’m dealing with this, you know, had professional challenges. And, and, and to bring this out in at the time just really created a lot of turmoil in in my family. And in my life. It was it was really, really messy. I don’t think that I I managed the transition very elegantly. Is much I would do now in hindsight differently. Knowing, you know, hindsight.

Maria Ross  13:05

Hindsight, is 2020 2020. 

 Cori Lovejoy  13:07

So, but but it is what it is, and and I, you know, I damaged a lot of relationships and friendships along the way, but but also at the same time, I felt a lot of support and love from some key individuals, including my wife and children.

Maria Ross  13:24

Right, which you are all still very close. Yes, yes. So much. So absolutely. Wow. Well, I can you know, again, I can only imagine how hard that is. And I think we don’t appreciate enough, the period before someone, not even the period before someone decides to come out. But the period when they’re trying to determine who they are. I think we have this image in our mind that people know who they are before they come out and they’re just hiding it. And we don’t really understand the journey that that you go through. Like you said, where you were just trying to figure out what is this? Am I mentally ill? Why doesn’t this feel right? Like there was a whole there was a whole pre almost coming out to yourself process. It sounds like.

 Cori Lovejoy  14:11

Yeah, I mean, I would say that’s exactly what it is, is coming out to was coming out to myself. And yeah, it’s really hard to sort of separate that kind of process with you know, I think being being trans and then growing up, sort of closeted and not being able to talk about this, it. It also creates a lot of other kind of psychological problems. So it’s I think it’s, I mean, I want to try to just speak from my own experience as much as I can because every trans person every every story is different, right? I don’t I don’t want to give any illusion or pretense that I’m speaking for all trans people.

Maria Ross  15:01

No, everybody’s story is so personal. And you even said to me before we started recording, you know, you identify as trans, but you also identify as queer and you identify as lesbian. And there’s lots of different permutations of how, you know, there’s not just one identity of transgender.

 Cori Lovejoy  15:19

Yeah, yeah. I do think, though, that it is not uncommon, you know, that being said, I don’t think it’s uncommon for there to be other underlying or coincident mental health issues that right occur with this, I mean, gender dysphoria, I don’t you know, it, at least for me, wasn’t just, it wasn’t just gender dysphoria. There’s, you know, there’s body dysmorphia, you know, it’s like I had I had this, you know, kind of, you know, eating disorders and sort of like, lots of lots of different things that just kind of came along with it two, that I needed to sort out that were also, you know, not necessarily directly related being trans but definitely related.

Maria Ross  16:07

Right? Well, I mean, I would imagine that, when you’re trying to figure out, what does it feel right, you’re turning to all these different things, is it? Is it my body? Is it my mental health? It’s, you know, when you’re trying to figure out what’s misaligned for you, it leads you it sounds like it leads you in all these different directions. How does it? How does it feel, now that you have made this transition? When you hear about the laws being passed in other states, obviously, that must worry you about the mental health of young people, but also of adults, too, who have taken a long time to come to this journey? 

 Cori Lovejoy  16:48

Yeah, yeah. It was, it’s actually very upsetting to me. I feel, I mean, I had so many, I’ve had so much privilege and coming out, I had amazing friends, I had a supportive family, I had the financial resources, I had this life living as a man that shaped me and gave me I think, some con, you know, there’s a certain amount of confidence I had I, I felt like I was, you know, successful professionally. So, I had a lot going for me, and I feel like I barely made it. And then I start to think about, you know, younger kids or people without those resources, financial, in places, you know, and this was in Seattle, where I came out to, so I felt relatively safe. And I just think about if any of those variables weren’t there, what I’ve made it I think about the kids and it’s, it’s it’s, it’s life and death. I mean, it’s, it’s it is life and death. For trans people. There’s some really interesting statistics about suicide rates and attempted suicide rates among trans people, and particularly trans youth. And they’re extraordinarily high. For ordinarily high. And and it’s, it’s just so sad to me, and it just, it makes me angry. And I think so much of it is just I’ll say ignorance. Yeah,

Maria Ross  18:25

It is ignorance. And that’s, you know, this is part of my mission with this show is to open people’s apertures of who they come in proximity to. And that’s why I’m so grateful that you’re here. Because if you are a person who has never known someone who’s transgender, or you just don’t understand, which is okay not to understand, but you have to seek understanding, and to seek understanding, you have to open a dialogue with people. And so that’s why again, I’m so grateful that you’re here. Just sharing your personal journey. I wanted to ask, you know, it’s so interesting years ago, I caught a TED talk online by a woman named Paula Stone Williams and the talk was called, I’ve lived as a man and a woman. Here’s what I learned. And it was a transgender woman who had transitioned very similar to after a very successful corporate career. And I think in her case, she’d even been CEO of a, I think, kind of a Christian angled organization, a larger organization. And her talk was so enlightening, and so she was funny, but she was truthful. And the biggest thing I took away from the talk was just the eye-opening experience that she had had of living as a man for so long and reaping the success living as a white privileged man for so long. And now being a woman and what she noticed about how she was treated differently, and not just for being transgender, but for people who just believed she had, you know, she was had always identified as a woman. Can you tell us a little bit about what you’ve noticed in terms of the treatment you get or the experience you have going through the world? As a man? And now as a woman? What have you learned about that?

 Cori Lovejoy  20:19

Yeah, I want to, I want to answer that. But I also just want to kind of put a exclamation point behind what you said about proximity. And that’s I’ve made a commitment to, to speak as much as I can and, and be out in and open and transparent about my experiences, because I’ve found that that proximity is so important, and sharing my story, and I’m in the feedback I get is, confirms that it’s just it’s so important in building empathy, proximity, and into perspective taking. And yeah, it’s very difficult to understand is, you know, living as a man, I don’t I mean, I don’t understand it. I mean, I, it’s very difficult to explain, it’s very, very difficult to understand. And I don’t expect anyone who’s not trans to really be able to understand it, but it does go to like, you know, people being curious, genuinely curious. And then also just, like, respecting, but yeah, some of the, like, interesting things, I guess, the first time that I really felt a loss of privilege was the the very first time I, I went out of my house, presenting as a woman dressed as a woman. And I remember closing the front door, locking it and walking out and then being scared. And I’m like, wow, this for the first time in my life, I am out. And I actually am scared. I mean, violence against trans people, trans women, particularly and trans women of color, it’s a real thing. And it just was, it was a very visceral thing to like, suddenly realize that I can’t take my physical safety for granted anymore. And now I have to pay attention. You know, I started carrying pepper spray. I, you know, I was careful about where I went and how I went and how I looked and how I presented myself. It was, it happened in the matter of like, a very short amount of time. So that contrast was was really, really stark. For me. And then I also remember the first time I got mansplain to I didn’t know what was happening. Yeah. And can you tell us about it? Yeah, it was a perfect, it was in a professional context. It was actually a nurse, a male nurse. And I swear, I’m like, this person, it just felt weird the way the person was talking to me, kind of slow and like really go into like, a lot of depth to explain, like basic concepts and things like that. Like, is this just the way this person is? And then it dawned on me now I’m getting mansplain to. And I’m not the least intelligent person around I don’t think and so it was just, it was so bizarre to me, because I felt that I felt helpless, like it was happening. Yeah, but I also didn’t feel like I could say anything about it. I don’t know how I would like, address that I still don’t know how to address that to, to this day. And it’s occurred, it keeps occurring to me. In a in a professional context, after I came out, I moved to Salt Lake City and kind of as a man, just to kind of keep myself busy. And in the flow of things. I took a job at Nordstrom, in the fragrance and beauty department, which for me was just like a fun and interesting way to be out as trans and get up the, what I call the girl school learning curve really quickly. But in that context, I had a I had a manager who called me aggressive and I had a manager call me combative. And I really, I really, really reflected upon that. And I can’t say for certain but I’m I’m nearly 100% certain that I was showing up exactly the way I showed up in a professional context. Yeah, the way you’ve always man. Yeah. And, and, you know, you know, as a man, you’re assertive, as a woman you’re aggressive.  You know? And, you know, someone once told me, you know, what do you call a successful man? Successful? What do you call a successful woman? A bitch, right that. That’s really real. It’s really real. Yeah. And I don’t think it happens consciously in most cases, right? It’s unconscious bias. But it’s, it’s very hard to pinpoint. I was telling a friend as yesterday, it’s like, you know, I can share some of these anecdotes, but when it’s happening, or it’s you can’t always point to a specific phrase or specific behavior. It’s, it’s more of a felt sense of, of how you’re being treated. And yeah, whether or not there’s respect, and, and it’s very hard, isn’t it? No, it’s just thinking about this in organizational context. If you were going to, like, go to HR and say, hey, this is what’s happening, it would be very, very difficult to, like, make a case for it based. 

Maria Ross  24:47

Right?  Right, right.

 Cori Lovejoy  25:49

Specific languages. But you know, I mean, I know and having that contrast, and I just think about, I think about sis women that have just grown up in this context without knowing any different and differently. And I feel like a lot of what I do now with my girlfriends, and I just love my, we can talk about that too. But my relationship with women, and my girlfriends, it’s so remarkable. And something that I’ve really missed out that I really didn’t realize I was missing out, as a man that girlfriend relationships are remarkable. So remarkable. It’s been the that piece of coming out has been the least expected. And the most beneficial and best part about coming out. But it’s, it’s just, it’s hard to sort of explain what it’s like. And I think, again, think of sis women who, who have never really realized this, and there’s something around, like personal power, I feel like a lot of what I’m doing in my relationships with my girlfriends is like, helping them to step into their power and be more assertive. I, you know, in full disclosure, I, a year ago, I checked myself in to rehab, inpatient rehab, because my, my coming out was also coincident with, you know, these underlying mental health issues. But also, which started as very intentional self-medication. Turned into addiction. And so, by, you know, by early August last year, I was like, I can’t stop. I mean, I’m, I’m, I’m an I’m a full-on addict here, I can’t stop if I wanted to. And so, but you know, and I went into rehab, it was impatient, and I was living in the women’s area and with women and fully accepted as a woman. And I just, I, it was so interesting to me, because I would see, it was very, very strict in terms of rules. But I would see men get exceptions to the rules. And, and merely because they asked, and then I would go to the, you know, the women and you know, they’d come to me, like, oh, I can’t do that. Or women. I’m like, can you ask, can you advocate for yourself? Like, I just, I was doing a lot of coaching of these women to just really be more assertive and advocate for themselves. Something that came very, very naturally, to me as a man that is, I think, seems to be very hard for a lot of sis women. 

Maria Ross  28:20

It does. And I’d want to get back to your point about why it’s, it’s hard to put your finger on it. And that’s why, you know, and I can speak to my own experience, why it’s hard to go to HR, why it’s hard to to report somebody because it feels so squishy. It’s like you know it, but there’s no like, people don’t just come out and blatantly say I am sexually harassing you, or whatever it is, or I am mansplaining. You it’s not, it’s not that black and white. It’s really that feeling. And we were joking before we started recording that if only you know, every man could live as a woman and go to work as a woman for just a little while and come back. They would get it right it because it’s you say that and it sounds so squishy and nebulous, and but you you know it when you’re in it. And so, I really appreciate you sharing, that that’s something that you’re starting to realize too, as you as you move through life as as the woman you were meant to be. So, I would love to kind of continue that vein and talk about you know what, now that you I mean, I know you’re not still you’re still on your journey, but with your work around culture with your work around emotional intelligence with organizations, and helping them build an inclusive culture. What can colleagues do or say? What can leaders do or say, to help transgender individuals be their best selves at work and be able to, to thrive in the workplace? It is And I know there’s not like a laundry list. But if you sort of had some, some top tips for us, of what you found helpful, now that you know, you’ve been on both sides of this, like what, what are some ways that people can? If they don’t realize they’re doing something maybe stop? Or if they don’t realize they should be doing something start?

 Cori Lovejoy  30:22

Yeah, I think it starts with proximity. I think it it, it it, you know, to to be genuinely curious about and whether it’s trans or LGBTQ, LGBTQ plus, or you know, someone with a disability, any underrepresented group. I think it’s, I think it’s proximity. I think it’s genuine curiosity so that you can, as best you can take that perspective, perspective taking. So, it’s it’s proximity and perspective taking. I also think it requires a lot of personal work. We’re not always I mean, it’s unconscious bias, we’re not aware of our, our biases. I wasn’t I mean, I on Earth, my own biases about women that I had to work through on on Earth, my own biases about trans people and queer people that I, I had internalized these biases, then and I actually had, you know, and still do, and a lot of cases like have to overcome them. Myself, and I just learned this term, meta stereotype, which is, you know, not as like, we know, all know what stereotype means. But a meta stereotype is me thinking that people are thinking about me, stereotypically.

Maria Ross  31:45

Right.

 Cori Lovejoy  31:45

So, me just a mat, you know. So, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s very interesting. But I think that, I think so I think though, you know, proximity perspective taking and then personal work will unearth these biases, and make the unconscious biases conscious. And that’s a lot of that’s a lot of work. And that takes a lot of like introspection and personal work. I think the, to me, the really interesting point, then becomes like, what do I do about it? Like, now I’m suddenly conscious of my bias? How do I break that bias? And this is where I think my work before is, is is, you know, emotional and social intelligence. And mindfulness comes in so handy, because I think that it takes practice, I think you I think, just just knowing intellectually about unconscious bias, and knowing you know, these things at a conceptual level, very, very different than actually changing your, your wiring and changing your heart. And that takes practice. And I think that’s the thing is, and there are there are known practices, many of which I’ve promoted in the past, and still practice myself to combat unconscious bias, unconscious bias actually change, change the way you think about people at a very deep level. And I think that, that I mean, to me, those are the steps. I mean, personally, I think what was really important for me is just people being curious people affirming the being affirmed as a as a woman in my identity. And that’s, it’s simple things that a lot of people might think ridiculous, but using someone’s correct pronouns, it just, it makes it, it makes such a big difference when I was, and I still am, in a lot of ways, very fragile, in terms of my identity, as a woman, so it’s very, very potent for me to be accepted as a woman to be treated as one. So, I think just it goes back to maybe just that kind of respect. 

Maria Ross  34:06

Hmm hmm. Yeah. And I think that, you know, it always goes back to that whole, like working on yourself first.  You know, we talked about that in the empathy edge is that it starts with you, practicing mindfulness, practicing presence, being able to recognize your own emotions, and your own state of mind, which is so much of the work that you did to great success with organizations of helping build that emotional intelligence muscle, so that there’s not again, there’s not just a laundry list of things you do and don’t do, but it’s when you are actually conscious. And you are present to what you are thinking and feeling. You can change your behavior. But if you’re not even conscious and present to what you’re thinking and feeling, you don’t even realize the impact that you’re having on other people. You’re very insular. And so it’s it’s such you know, it’s we we keep trying to find these ways to get around that important first step, to eliminating so many of the issues that we have in the workplace and in our world around racism, misogyny, unconscious bias, all of that. That work is so important. And then I think there’s probably also a piece, I would imagine that there’s also there also is a policy piece. So once you see things that are, we, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of leaders that try to say it’s it’s implicit bias, because they want to have that as an excuse of like, I didn’t realize that we were treating people that way. But then there’s other times where, where I had this conversation with the previous guests where it’s like, well, you, you knew you knew you were underpaying women, you knew your culture was not inclusive for transgender individuals, like you knew. So, there are their policy or ritual or other process, decisions that can be made to create that more inclusive environment, as you said, not just for transgender individuals, but for bipoc. For women for underrepresented groups.

 Cori Lovejoy  36:13

Yeah, I think there there clearly are policies and procedures in those things. I think that I mean, to really create a culture that is welcoming, and where underrepresented people feel like they belong, because I think that sense, that’s what I think we’re aiming for. And any dei work is a sense of belonging. I think that that that is going to require leaders to actually change their mindsets, and do that personal work. And that’s, that’s the hard part. I do think it’s interesting. You know, I’ve often thought it’s interesting to to have gone through this experience with my kind of background, and training and sort of sort of, you know, having that lens on my own experience has been been really rich. Yeah, just I just occurred to me to, I want to say one thing about respect. And the, if you look at the root of the word, it means to look, again, relook. And so I just, I think, in terms of respect that way, I’m just like, look, again, look beyond. Beyond that initial reaction, I had a very good friend of mine say that, you know, it, you know, in meeting me, there was about 10, to 15 minutes of discomfort, she was very, very honest about that kind of discomfort. And then, and then it was fine. And then it was totally normal. And I’ve asked other people about that. And they’re like, yeah. First, it’s a little bit abrupt puts people on their heels to see, you know, male bodied person presenting as female. And I think that just the ability to kind of like, sit in that discomfort, remain curious. Recognize, like, what’s coming up in you, and being able to manage that, get beyond that, and get to the place of empathy and perspective taking. That’s not trivial for people. That’s a huge sort of developmental step for a lot of people. And I think that that’s, that’s the work that needs to happen is at the level of, you know, individual personal work, and then relating to people. One on one, one on one. So I liked the policy. I liked the the, you know, the procedures and the processes. That alone is not enough to really 

Maria Ross  38:38

Exactly. 

 Cori Lovejoy  38:39

I was changing leaders, yeah. 

Maria Ross  38:41

I was gonna say you can’t policy your way to an inclusive culture. But what it’s but if you’re doing those hand in hand, which you’ve done so well, in organizations that you’ve worked in, in the past, where you’ve, you’ve helped with individuals working on the inner work, and what can we do systemically? What how can we change our hiring processes? How can we create practices and rituals just like we talked about? So, it’s a it’s a both and you can’t start with sort by mandating inclusivity because it doesn’t happen. It’s an outcome of building your own emotional intelligence, your own empathy, your own understanding? And what I think is probably more important, even as a first step and tell me if you agree with this, is just that the leaders are modeling the behavior. Even if you have no policies in place, even if you have no procedures in place, even if you know, if you see leaders that are acting with empathy, including others, that and also that they are not tolerating disrespect. In the organization. They don’t let it slide. I feel like that speaks volumes to creating the inclusive culture that you want. Have them read really putting their money where their mouth is and saying this is, this is what we stand for. I am going to model this behavior. And I’m also going to call you out. If you’re not being inclusive if you’re not being respectful.

 Cori Lovejoy  40:14

Yes, I couldn’t agree more. And it kind of brings up another issue that you mentioned hiring. You mentioned creating these cultures at a systemic level. And I think there’s a, you know, these all happened to be peas, like perspective, taking personal were proximity. But there’s another key here that I think is super important, which is proactivity, which is we can’t just I don’t think that with any underrepresented group, I don’t think just we can’t, we just can’t say, Hey, we’re, you know, in even if you are genuinely inclusive, and, and you’ve changed your culture, you, you can’t just sit back and way and hope that underrepresented people find you and make their way into the organization, I mean, underrepresented groups have been in people have been disadvantaged systemically, and it takes proactivity I mean, we got to be proactive in our recruiting, you know, changing our recruiting processes, changing our mentoring processes, being proactive. And in promoting representation is really important. As you know, as a trans person, I’m looking at organizations to work for or with, and it’s like I do, I see people like me, on the board and leadership roles, you know. So, being proactive and promoting and recruiting underrepresented people is for for leaders is really changing the way they they hire and bring people on board and promote people, I think is exactly where leaders would put their money where their mouth is. In addition to, you know, calling people out and, and, and they themselves doing their, you know, being very transparent about the personal work than they need to do and are doing.

Maria Ross  42:05

Well, I’m what I love about the work that you’ve done in the past and that you’re doing for organizations today is really helping them bring that sort of training and dialogue about the inner work to the organization on a consistent basis. I’ve talked about this in a previous hot take episode of the podcast, but you can’t just have one empathy workshop or one emotional intelligence workshop for your team. And then poof, your culture is transformed. It’s got to be a consistent curriculum, a consistent message over and over again, that you are going to help your employees with that inner work. Because it ultimately benefits the organization, I think there’s so many leaders who don’t want to spend time or money on that, quote, unquote, stuff, I’m doing air quotes, people can’t see me. But it’s so important to the actual bottom-line performance of the organization. And you’ve, you know, in your work in the past, you’ve been able to prove that you’ve been able to show that once we put these things in place, we you know, retention went up, engagement went up, loyalty went up, revenue went up. And so how do you work with leaders when you’re when you’re trying to show them that, that this inner work, and creating an environment, not just saying like you go do the inner work, where the organization actually takes responsibility and accountability for helping their employees with the inner work? How do you feel about that?

 Cori Lovejoy  43:35

Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting, as you know, in is, uh, you know, when I do consulting work or work with leaders, and, you know, you get hired to, to change something in the organization, right? Magically and, and it’s a very, and, you know, it’s a very sort of a dicey conversation to have with the leader, who’s, you know, either your boss or your client to say, well, you know, like, first you got to change you. First, we got it, you know, like, that’s the, I know, it’s tempting to, you know, go out and say that, you know, we got to change this in our organization, we have these issues, and whatever in organization, it’s like, okay, we’ll get to that. But first, you got to do your work. Yeah. And, and I, you know, and I think, I think more and more leaders are getting that, and, and then when they get comfortable doing that work in their personal work in a work context, then it becomes clear how they would do that. In the organization. If they haven’t done that work themselves, then I think, you know, the thought, even the thought of doing this work at organizational level. This doesn’t doesn’t resonate with them.

Maria Ross  44:54

But you’ve seen the power of that in the work that you’ve done, where the leaders are like, I’m willing to take a look at my itself, and how that’s impacted the performance of the whole organization.

 Cori Lovejoy  45:04

Totally. Yeah, I mean, that’s the biggest, I mean, the most potent leverage point in system change is, is leadership, I think. And then if it within individual leaders, then it’s, it’s, you know, the leverage point is, is their personal work and then changing their views and their behaviors. Yeah, I will say one other thing, too, about what I like to say. And I think it’s important, because so much of what I think if people look beyond just kind of the, my story, as a trans person, there’s another underlying piece here that a lot of people can relate to, which is, I’ll just call itself love accepting yourself, learning to love yourself learning to get beyond shame, and these things. And so, I will often describe my journey as a journey of learning to love and accept myself unconditionally. And so many people can relate to that, whether their journey is, you know, whether it’s trans or sis, Jen, you know, what, like, that is, I think that’s sort of, like, the common human experience for most of us is, is, like, we’ve been told so much of our lives, that we’re not enough that something’s wrong with us that we don’t fit in, or we’ve just, you know, internalized that ourselves, and, and so much of this work for me has been learning to, to love myself and accept myself and get beyond the shame. And when I, when I talk at that level, about those types of things, I think people can really relate to me as as, as this coming out as trans as a, as learning to accept myself and learning for who I am. And not try to, yeah.

Maria Ross  46:59

And I love that, that point. Because I think if you look at the lot, a lot of the issues that leaders have, with you know, as, as my premise of my book was the root of many of the issues is the lack of empathy. And where does the lack of empathy come from, it often comes from you as a person being dissed, destabilized, where you don’t have enough self-acceptance or self-love, or self-confidence, or, or you’re not grounded enough to be able to try to see things from another person’s point of view, and not feel threatened by it. Because I feel like so much of the dysfunctional leadership out there, you know, it’s like the bullies become bullies type of thing, right? And why do bullies become bullies because they’re hurt inside. Because they’re, they’ve experienced something themselves. And so, if you’re, you know, if you’re having issues with your team, and performance and inclusivity, it’s worth it to at least entertain the idea that you’ve got to create a stronger foundation within you, because perhaps, you are being so defensive and unwilling to listen and unwilling to compromise. Because you have your your own insecurities, you have your own issues of self-acceptance, and self-love and self-worth. And it sounds very, like, whoo, whoo. And I know, there’s a lot of skeptics, you know, folding their arms right now, they’re probably not listening to this podcast. But, you know, we, I think, as we get older and more experienced in the workforce, we start to see that we start to recognize that, oh, I don’t know that that person’s a jerk. I just think that that person doesn’t really love themselves very much.

 Cori Lovejoy  48:38

I think I think, yeah, I think you’re so right. And I think you’ve just articulated that perfectly. I don’t have anything to add. I think that’s, that’s wonderful. And that’s, that’s, that’s the personal work at the most fundamental level, is learning to know yourself, who you are. authentically finding your authentic self. Becoming aware of that authentic self, accepting that authentic self. Loving that, and you know that yourself unconditionally. Yeah, you’re, you’re you’re right.

Maria Ross  49:18

Yeah. Well, Cori, this has been so wonderful to reconnect with you. And you know, having known you before and know you now, there is a glow there is an energy you spoke about the fact that, you know, people feel like you’re a people magnet now. And it’s, I really believe it’s because you have embraced your authentic self. And it’s so beautiful to see. And it’s such a great model for all of us, no matter what it is about ourselves, whether it’s, we’re trans or we have vulnerabilities we need to accept or whatever whatever it is about us that we need to accept. You’re a great model for what can happen when you finally do, and I know it wasn’t, it’s not an easy journey. But I really appreciate you sharing it with us today. And you know, bringing that perspective and enriching your work around organizational change around culture around creating inclusive cultures, makes you such a unique consultant and leader in that area. So I’m very excited to see what you do next. But we will have all the links to stay in touch with you in the show notes. But just for people on the go, where’s the best place they can connect with you? 

 Cori Lovejoy  50:30

Probably LinkedIn or Instagram. Those are the two social media platforms. 

Maria Ross  50:35

Wonderful. 

 Cori Lovejoy  50:37

But I just want to thank you, thank you so much. There were a lot of compliments back in there and I appreciate that I appreciate you and and your interest in me at a at a personal level and a professional level. And it’s just been, it’s always a pleasure to speak with you. 

Maria Ross  50:52

Oh thank you. 

 Cori Lovejoy  50:53

Today was no exception.

Maria Ross  50:54

Thank you so much Cori Lovejoy, making the world better for culturally inclusive environments. Thank you so much, and we wish you the best of luck on your journey. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge. Hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please share it with a friend or colleague. And don’t forget to rate and review we love those on your podcast player of choice. Until next time, please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care, and be kind. 

How often do you challenge your assumptions about others and get curious – especially about those in your workplace or your family who have different views than you, political or otherwise? In our increasingly polarized society, my guest today, Mónica Guzmán, believes that we can’t count on institutions to bridge those divides for us – we have to do it one conversation, one person, at a time.

Today, we discussed how she got involved in the work of helping people understand each other better and what role her journalism career played in that mission. We dived into how to bring emotion back into conversations rather than trying to win arguments with data, and a magic question you can ask people who disagree with you to better understand them. We talked about how to have more curious conversations and how to navigate roadblocks. Some great tips for those of you going into election season or tense family dinners over the holidays!

 To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• You can’t have a negotiation if there is no talking. We are judging more while talking less and that only leads further to divide, and not to empathy and understanding.
• The level we think change doesn’t matter, one-on-one conversations, is where change happens the most.
• You often believe that the people that you love and care about who disagree with you are not the majority but an exception to the rule. However, if you talk with others who disagree with you, you will find out that they are not the exception, but the rule

“The most powerful question that actually gets great information from the other person that leads to understanding and also avoids judgment is asking people what concerns them.”

— Mónica Guzmán

“If we don’t engage across disagreement, we risk not seeing variables that are really important to other people, and make for a far more honest accounting of everything that’s at play when people make decisions.” —  Mónica Guzmán

“Curiosity is an incredible form of caring.” —  Mónica Guzmán

“Searching for truth and searching for trust, are both incredibly important. If you get to a point in the conversation where you realize you don’t have the same facts…go back to talking about what concerns people and try to have a conversation about values.” —  Mónica Guzmán

About Mónica Guzmán, Senior Fellow for Public Practice at Braver Angels

Mónica Guzmán is a bridge builder, journalist, and entrepreneur who lives for great conversations sparked by curious questions. She’s the director of digital and storytelling at Braver Angels, the nation’s largest cross-partisan grassroots organization working to depolarize America; host of live interview series at Crosscut; and cofounder of the award-winning Seattle newsletter The Evergrey. Monica’s new book, I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times has been praised by the media, readers and influencers alike.

She was a 2019 fellow at the Henry M. Jackson Foundation, where she studied social and political division, and a 2016 fellow at the Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard University, where she researched how journalists can rethink their roles to better meet the needs of a participatory public. She was named one of the 50 most influential women in Seattle, served twice as a juror for the Pulitzer Prizes, and plays a barbarian named Shadrack in her besties’ Dungeons & Dragons campaign. A Mexican immigrant, Latina, and dual US/Mexico citizen, she lives in Seattle with her husband and two kids and is the proud liberal daughter of conservative parents.

Resources  Mentioned:

The Empathy Edge: Interview with Edwin Rutsch, How Empathy Circles Can Change the World

Center for Building a Culture of Empathy

http://cultureofempathy.com

Empathy Circle Website

http://www.empathycircle.com

Check out Edwin and an Empathy Circle in action in the documentary Trumphobia: What Both Sides Fear: trumphobiamovie.com/watch

Connect with Mónica Guzmán:

Braver Angels Website: https://braverangels.org/

Monica’s Website and info about her book, I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times: https://reclaimcuriosity.com

Website: https://moniguzman.com/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/moniguzman

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moniguzman/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/reclaimcuriosity

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/moniguzman/

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Next month, those of us in the US deal with two situations where disagreement can create Stark divisions, election day and Thanksgiving dinner. If you want some help navigating tense conversations, so you can still stay connected to those you work with, or are related to today’s episode is for you. How often do you challenge your assumptions about others and get curious, especially about those in your workplace or your family who have different views than you political or otherwise in our increasingly polarized society? My guest today, Monica Guzman believes that we can’t count on institutions to bridge those divides for us. We have to do it one conversation, one person at a time. Monica Guzman is a bridge builder, journalist and entrepreneur who lives for great conversations sparked by curious questions. She’s a senior fellow for public practice at braver angels, the nation’s largest cross partisan grassroots organization working to depolarize America. She’s hosted a live interview series at cross cut. She’s co founder of the award winning Seattle newsletter, The ever gray and Monaco’s new book. I never thought of it that way. How to have fearlessly curious conversations in dangerously divided times has been praised by the media, readers and influencers alike. A Mexican immigrant, Latina and dual US Mexico citizen Monica lives in Seattle with her husband and two kids, and is the proud liberal daughter of conservative parents. She also has some very interesting accolades and hobbies, which you can read more about in her bio in the show notes. Today, we discussed how she got involved in the work of helping people understand each other better, and what role her journalism career played in that mission. We also discuss why her book is different from many other books about navigating difficult conversations. We’ve dived into how to bring emotion back into conversations. Rather than trying to win arguments with data and a magic question you can ask people who disagree with you to better understand them. We talked about how to have more curious conversations, and how to navigate those nasty roadblocks. Some great tips for those of you going into election season, or tense family dinners over the holidays. Good luck and take a listen.  

Maria Ross  04:29

Big welcome Monica Guzman to the empathy edge podcast. I am really really excited. Well, I’m really, really excited about all my guests. But I’m very, very excited to have this conversation with you because your book, I never thought of it that way how to have fearlessly curious conversations in dangerously divided times, is one of the big reasons I even embarked on my empathy research and the work that I continue to do the speaking that I continue to do. So, welcome to the podcast.

 Monica Guzman  04:58

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Maria Ross  05:00

It’s great. And we talked about I think our paths crossed in Seattle at some point between 2007 and 2012. So, I know I had heard about you and the amazing work that you’ve done. So, tell us just briefly your story, and how you got to this work about helping people embrace curious conversations with people that are different from them or have a different worldview.

 Monica Guzman  05:27

So, for me, a lot of how I got to this point, is a clarification of my own personal mission. I got into journalism right out of college thinking, oh, it’s because I love to interview people. It’s because I love to talk to people. And I’ve realized over time that what it is, is that I really, really love trying to help people understand each other. That was what drew me to journalism to begin with. And it is what then pulled me from just straight journalism to this kind of deeper, more comprehensive work of how do you help a society that feels broken in its ability to communicate, honestly, candidly, across disagreement, be able to do that.  So, that they can see the world as it is, instead of you know, what we’re doing, which is often being in our silos and having this fractured lens color, everything. So, the two main reasons that the two main threads that led me to write the book, one was my journalism, I really care about people understanding each other, so many of our deepest conflicts and impasses when we try to thrive as a society, I think, boiled down to that. But also, my personal story. So, I am a Mexican immigrant like my parents, they voted for Donald Trump, both in 2016 and 2020. I voted for Clinton, and then Biden, you can imagine the the political divide in our family and how it’s manifest. But the the, I guess, extraordinary thing, is that I’ve gotten to the place where I can say, not only that, I understand why they made a very different choice for me that I found, like, wow, like I couldn’t even imagine, but also that if I were them, I would have made the same choice.

Maria Ross  07:16

Interesting. Well, and context is everything right? And that’s really about us keeping ourselves in silos and the continued polarization is what prevents us from having the conversations to still disagree, because empathy is not about agreeing with people. But it’s about giving people space to be heard. So, at least you go, I still don’t agree with you. And I don’t agree with that method. I don’t agree with that budget proposal. I don’t agree with that strategy. I don’t agree with that political candidate. But I understand why you do. I understand your, your, your background, your context, how you’re seeing the situation. And so at least now that we might be understanding each other as humans, maybe there is a way forward together, where at least now we’re talking right, you can’t have a negotiation if there’s no talking,

 Monica Guzman  08:07

Right? Because what’s been have happening is this dynamic, where we’re judging each other more, while engaging each other less. So, play out that movie. And these these things happen, where engagement becomes more and more like unappetizing. And even you start to think it’s evil. It’s bad. If I even have this conversation, I’m, I’m compromising my own values. I’m, I’m giving up on my community, I’m condoning horrible ideas. And so, a lot of these kinds of barriers have really implanted themselves in the consciousness of some corners of our discourse. And so that’s how deeply fractured we are. I mean, it’s one thing to disagree and be like, I’m annoyed, I don’t want to talk to you right now or all of that. But to start to believe that even hearing your story is evil. When we start getting close to that, that’s a red alert. That’s a that’s a red alert, right? Like, we’re, we’re what’s going on here? How can we see each other for who we really are? And how can we get away from what I think of as the three like these three sorts of fundamental untruths where we, when we’re in the depths of a bad disagreement, we want to believe so badly, we want to believe that the other person is evil, or crazy, or stupid. And then there’s a fourth one, the fourth one is they’re wounded, they’re wounded. But all four of those are basically us saying we’re better than them. 

Maria Ross  09:37

Yeah. 

 Monica Guzman  09:38

And you approach disagreement from that place. You won’t find understanding, you won’t. So, so much of the work is sort of internal first. Empathy is easier to sort of rationally understand and to put into practice, because it has to start inside.

Maria Ross  09:53

Absolutely. And I have a bunch of questions for you. We could probably talk for two hours, but I know we don’t have that much time. I’m just going to jump to something that I struggle with, which is what what happens when the disagreement gets to a point where it’s not just that you see things differently, or you’re, you know, debating over a policy decision, but where you question if the person in front of you views humanity in a different way, which I think is a lot of the struggle with the political discourse. It’s not so much about like, I don’t like how you approach financial budgeting within the government. Fundamentally, it’s a disagreement over policies and how humans are treated. Is there space, to have those conversations and still accept someone’s worldview? If you feel that they don’t value humanity in the same way that you do? Oh, that’s fascinating.

 Monica Guzman  10:49

That’s such a great question. So it’s funny because the word humanity is it’s in my head, so clear, and yet so vague. People all mean such different things when they say humanity, but when we talk about valuing, or seeing humanity, we each have a picture of that that is uncompromising, if you don’t see humanity, if I have made the conclusion about you, based on something you’ve said, or a conversation, or something I know about you that you don’t see humanity the way I do, it becomes easy to say, something is severely wrong with you. So, so I guess that’s one thing that I would say as well, I would start getting curious about what is meant by humanity? And would that other person have the same definition. But stepping back to something maybe more practical for that moment, in a conversation? I have found that one of the most powerful questions, the most powerful questions that actually gets great information from the other person that leads to understanding and also avoids judgment, because judgment is always at the ready, right, in these sorts of moments, is asking people what concerns them. So, you find that impasse, and you start to think, Pan, they just don’t see humanity the way I do, they don’t share my values that are so obviously, like, the values we need as human beings. So, you’ll, you’ll be tempted to do a bunch of things, but what I would encourage you to do is to ask them for what concerns them. So, as we’re talking about this, I’m getting curious, what ultimately worries you about about what’s going on? What are you afraid of, if we go in this direction, or in that direction, like make an observation and ask about their concerns, you might be surprised you might get, you might get stuff you didn’t see coming. For example, if I can give a quick example. Down in Sherman County, Oregon, second smallest county, very rural, very agricultural, I led a group of mostly liberals from Seattle, who went down because we wanted to get curious about people who had made a different political choice with people who’d made a different political choice. And so, asking what concerned them, you know, as they made a choice to vote for Donald Trump, in the 2016 election, surfaced something completely surprising, which is the waters of the United States rule? Have you ever heard of that? I had worked and not know, turns out it’s federal policy, that if if misinterpreted, a very big concern from farmers was, if they the federal government might choose to decide to use this rule to claim that they can run land just as soon as some pond appears when it rains really hard. So, a lot of farmers voted for Trump, because of those kinds of economic reasons, business reasons, the Republicans understand the farm and agricultural world and everyone else is not. And I remember that a lot of liberals who had gone down we just assumed, you know, they’re, they don’t see humanity the way we do. Because if they if they saw humanity the way we do, they wouldn’t have voted for Donald Trump. But it turns out there were pieces we were missing. Hmm. And there, they had other concerns that we hadn’t, we didn’t even care about, we didn’t even know they existed.

Maria Ross  13:52

Right? 

 Monica Guzman  13:53

This is the thing, that if we don’t engage across disagreement, we risk not seeing variables that are really important to other people, and make for a far more honest accounting of everything that’s at play when people make decisions.

Maria Ross  14:09

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. I’ve mentioned this in a previous episode that I did with Elisa camel heart page, I believe about how we bridge divides across political difference. And how you know, I have a very strong stance on common sense gun control as an example. But I actually spoke to someone close to me, who’s a police officer. And I was asking them about how they felt about concealed carry being removed or something else around being able to carry. And the viewpoint was so interesting to me. It was it was something I’d never considered, which was, he said, as a police officer, I can’t promise I’m going to get somewhere in time. And I would hate to leave somebody defenseless because I can’t get there to help in time. And so, it was just A very interesting viewpoint about the personal right and responsibility of carrying arms, I still believe and this is the thing, empathy is not about agreeing with people, I still believe in common sense gun control. But wow, that’s a completely different perspective than, you know, we just all need guns so we can kill people, right, which is no right point of the other side. And so, it was so poignant to me, because it was actually from a very heartfelt and unselfish place, that this person felt that we should have the right to carry guns and have them available. Because, man, I care about people. And I became a police officer and a first responder and what if I don’t get there in time? 

 Monica Guzman  15:40

Yeah

Maria Ross  15:41

Right? which says, pretty cool.  My spine.

 Monica Guzman  15:44

Oh, yeah. That’s a great example. But I love that. 

Maria Ross  15:47

Understanding what’s underneath things. And you can apply this to any disagreement at work with your neighbors, with your family, with your kids. But you know, it really, we really are polarized politically. So I’m so glad you’re kind of tackling this right now. You, I would like to understand with your book, which everyone needs to read, but especially, you know, with an election coming up with the Thanksgiving holidays coming up, what sets us apart from other books about bridging gaps and navigating difficult conversations, because I think luck. You know, thankfully, there’s been a lot written about that lately. But what sets your book apart, and your your thinking of it apart?

 Monica Guzman  16:26

Yeah, so a couple things coming up. Now. One is, there’s a lot of books about polarization and division that really focus on the problem and how we got here, four fifths of my book is solutions. It’s what you can do. It’s practical advice. Most of the chapters end with, here’s things, you can try eight things you can try, and I think you can try in your next conversation. But I think more meaningfully than that. I’m not focused on conflict and disagreement. I’m actually using as my North Star, curiosity, the power of curiosity, in my career as a journalist. Time and time again, I have been so surprised by what can actually become delightful in discovering somebody else’s story. And unpacking somebody else’s perspective. It’s, it’s not something that happens all the time. I’m not saying that it’s necessarily you know, what, like, wow, every conversation can be pleasant. No, not at all. Most will not be it’s a cross disagreement. But if if, if we switch our mindset from, I have to resolve a conflict, right to here’s this other person, I approach that person as I approach most people guessing who they are. We are all bottomless mysteries, assuming all kinds of things, right. But a lot of the book is about the difference between curiosity and certainty. The arch villain of curiosity, is certainty. Because if you think you know, you won’t think to ask. And for me, the biggest tragedy of our toxic polarization, whether it’s political, or in your workplace, or in your own life, is when you stop wondering what people are all about when you think you’ve got them pegged. There’s no such thing is having someone packed. No, we’re changing every day anyway. Like I’m married, you know, I’m about to celebrate my 12th anniversary with my husband. We have not run out of things to talk about, or like ways to be annoyed and mystified.

Maria Ross  18:31

Exactly are ways to argue about ways to disagree about things. Yeah. 

 Monica Guzman  18:34

Just the other day, he gave a political opinion when I was like, mad at him, because I didn’t already know that about him. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it’s like, it’s so funny that we choose sometimes to treat people like these finite things that we’re supposed to already have figured out. Or they’ll be confound us. You know.

Maria Ross  18:53

Yeah. 

 Monica Guzman  18:54

Confound us, we need to go read a thought piece. And then once we read this thought piece with all these statistics, well, now we have them figured out and now for sure, we know they’re stupid. It’s like, really.

Maria Ross  19:03

When you don’t take into account that people evolve, and we’ve, we all evolve. I mean, I used to be a very strong Republican, like, what I like to call rational Republican. But again, like, that’s an assumption I’m making, but I was very conservative in my thinking. And I have bucked the trend of as you get older, you get more conservative and as I’ve gotten older, I’ve actually gotten more progressive. So you know, it’s it’s a, we’re all evolving depending on what happens to us every day and in our lives and what we’re experiencing.

 Monica Guzman  19:35

Exactly, and that’s the key, the most powerful question you can really ask behind all the questions you’re actually asking is, where are you coming from?

Maria Ross  19:45

Exactly tell and I always say the magical phrase is Tell me more. Yeah, about that. So instead of meeting the statement, or the opinion, or the argument, if it gets to that point, with Well, here’s why I’m right. Then you’re wrong first. And it’s really hard. I have to bite my tongue all the time. But you know, interesting. Tell me more about that. Tell me more about why you think that. And you know, even your thing, I never thought of it that way. Tell me more. And I have found in business environments in meetings and contentious discussions and family debates. That’s just such a powerful way to get someone talking, and also help them feel heard, because part of the issue with that conflict is each side doesn’t think the other side is listening to them.

 Monica Guzman  20:35

Yes, exactly. And what is telling me more, if not the actual assurance that I’m here to listen, right? It’s awesome. And I’ve thought more and more about this since the book published that curiosity is this incredible form of caring? If I if I want to know more about you, oh, my goodness, what an honor. Like, like, you know, when somebody asks me about me, and actually keeps asking, and it’s in a generous spirit, and it’s in a curious tone, that I don’t think is covering for some condescension, because sometimes that’s what I do. And if we don’t, oh, my goodness, all anyone wants is to be seen, right and understood, it’s a gift.

Maria Ross  21:17

And there’s something very non antagonistic about those words, tell me more that I’ve used in workshops that I’ve run and meetings that I’ve run versus Why do you think that way? Because if you say that with the wrong tone, it’s already layered with judgment. So

 Monica Guzman  21:31

Absolutely right.

Maria Ross  21:32

I would like to talk quickly about your statement about no politician, group or institution can bridge us the way that one on one relationships? Well, and I know that’s part of the work that you do with braver angels. So, we should talk about that as well. How did you come to believe that? And how does that inform the work of braver angels? Which, you know, please tell us more about that organization?

 Monica Guzman  21:55

Yeah. So, we do look at our institutions as we should, I mean, we’ve set them up to serve us, whether it’s media or politics. These are in some ways, a lot of the institutions that are implicated in our polarization, institutionally systemically, right, we see those forces at play. What I think has been unfortunate is that we begin to think that the only place where change can happen happen substantially is at that institutional level, that we have to wait for some kind of miracle politician to come and just show us the way or, you know, for the media to figure itself out all of a sudden, and like, suddenly, you know, just help us tell more responsible stories, and when I mean, they’re doing their best. But I am a huge, huge believer to my core, that it’s ultimately about culture and culture is this. It’s so annoying culture is so annoying, because no one can predict or control it at all. We try, we can’t do it. But what we do know is that it is the sum of all of us. That’s all we know. And so. So, I don’t see politics or media changing unless we’re changing. And I don’t see us changing, unless we’re doing it at that minuscule one to one conversation level, the level that we think doesn’t matter is where it matters. And one of the reasons that I know that is because the only honest conversations, I shouldn’t say the only but by far most of the honest, candid, open transformative conversations that I have are one to one. I mean, that that’s where people, that’s where the likelihood of you’re actually getting to understanding and trust is highest. So we need to be using that. That is our deepest, richest toolbox and context. But I think that we’re scared, and it’s it feels so hard. And so, we’ll do anything to avoid that. You know, like some people, it’s like, you know, you fight polarization by reading about it and understanding it as a problem, but then not doing anything in your own life. Well, it’s like, oh, yeah, actually, this has to be a practice, not a theory. It has to be a practice.

Maria Ross  24:11

And is that the philosophy behind braver angels and just briefly tell us what the organization facilitates?

 Monica Guzman  24:19

Yes. So braver angels is the nation’s largest grassroots nonprofit working to depolarize America. We’ve been at it since just after the 2016 election. It started with a workshop led by a renowned family therapist, like a guy good at divorce. And it was a workshop between 10 Trump voters and 10 Clink Clinton voters that went more phenomenally than anyone had imagined, even though it was able to contain anger and tension. And I’ve talked to the therapist that read that. I mean, that led led the conversation, you know, and he was like, there were a couple moments. I wasn’t sure we were going to figure this out. But then they did. And so they It began with that one workshop it is now we have on our menu, something like 50 workshops are programs that are targeted at this kind of progression. One of our workshops called depolarizing, within, and it’s about becoming conscious and aware of our own assumptions and how they get in our way, if we want to have more depolarizing conversations, then there’s skills for bridging the political divide, then there’s our famous red blue workshop, which has been studied by Brown University has been demonstrated to actually decrease hostility across the political divide, you get to witness ordinary people on the other side, being humble about their own side being critical about their own side, which is something that is sorely lacking, right. And it goes on and on and on, I can tell you way more. But yes, this idea that it has to be a practice is, is very much at the heart of braver angels, because because it’s not any we can make it an intellectual exercise, we can make sure the influencers you know, share memes about it, but at the end of the day, it’s it’s something you have to experience in at a time that’s this divided. For a lot of people we’ve really lost hope. But if but if they’re in that room, and they see it, and they go, oh, wait a minute, I had no idea that someone on the other side might think that way. What else am I wrong about?

Maria Ross  26:11

Right? Right. And it gives you back that growth mindset that learners on set, like you said, not that certainty. And you are probably already familiar with Edwin Ruch, who runs the building a culture of empathy. He does empathy circle training for people all over the world. He does it for free. And he has trained now 1000s of people on what’s, you know, I highly recommend it to everyone. I’ve talked about him on my show before I’ve had him on the show before. But it’s a very intense isolation of your active listening muscle. And he does these trainings over the course of several weeks, you can sign up for a cohort at empathy circles.com. But he was featured in a few documentaries, because they brought these circles to the most divisive political rallies we had after 2016, he was featured in a documentary called Trump phobia. And they brought into these empathy tents at these rallies. One person from one side of the spectrum, one person from the other side of the spectrum, and got them to talk and actively listen to each other. And they didn’t walk away agreeing, but they walked away hugging, seeing each other as human beings Exactly. And he’s doing it one person at a time, one group at a time, just like braver angels, because it’s always that thing where the quote unquote other side is this big amorphous mob that you picture, you think they’re homogeneous, you think they’re all the same. But then there’s always the exception of like, Oh, but I know this one person over here, and they’re really nice. And I love how they treat their family. They’re just a really good guy or gal. And in your mind, you think of them as the exception to the rule. Because they’re the one you know, but it turns out, there’s probably more people like them that believe those things or come from that country, or you just, it’s, it’s so interesting about that when it becomes personal. That’s when it’s important. There was a new story on NPR several months ago, and I’m going to butcher the, the citation of this. Apologies to you as, but there was a town in Wisconsin that voted. With Trump years ago, they they tried to pass some really harsh legislation around immigrant families. And then the town, they are they were actually trying to kick people out of the town that were, you know, seeking asylum or whatever. And then someone realized this one immigrant that they all knew and love.  I remember this. Impacted by this, right? I do. And then they changed their tune, because all of a sudden, they were like, oh, no, not this person. We know this person. He’s a beloved part of this community. Oh, I didn’t realize these are the people we were fighting against, and how it was impacting them. And it was, it was beautiful, the way the town rallied around it. And and, you know, fortunately, unfortunately, it took them knowing this one person, for them to see that, oh, this actually has deeper impact than I thought it might have had.

 Monica Guzman  29:14

Right. And it demonstrates how we work relationship is so, so important. And I think we often get stuck on this idea that being smart, and good. And right means only employing our reason. You know, like give me give me all the arguments and everything. And they’ll just talk about it on social media and like, we’ll just suss it out that way. But if you don’t include relationship if you don’t include getting to know that someone else has concerns far beyond this idea where you disagree. You forget you forget what connects us. And I know that sounds corny, but it’s actually essential, I think about how trust and truth are two different operations both critical for our healthy social functioning. So, I get asked this question a lot. What happens when you’re in a disagreement? And you realize that the other person is just not even telling the truth? They’re both they’re believing some conspiracy theory is that when you can’t agree on facts, the facts are just wrong. And and for a lot of people, there’s almost like a moral end of the conversation right there. How can you possibly move on? If you continue? Then what are you endorsing lies? What does that even mean? And we’re all very, like lost in that puzzle. But but for me, the framework is searching for truth. And searching for trust, are both incredibly important. If you get to a point in the conversation where you realize you don’t have the same facts, you’re going to be tempted to tell them, You’re wrong. Oh, my gosh. And then just kind of like, send a bunch of articles their way, I had one person, tell me show me this text thread that he did with a friend, like an old high school friend and the other side. And he showed me the whole thing. He goes, Monica, I don’t know why this didn’t work. We kept trying to understand it, and nothing happened. And I went through it right. And I asked him, well, what was your method? He’s like, well, my method was to inform. My method was to infer, I send them article after article that he refused to read. And he sent me articles I used to read. Like, yeah, when you when you disagree on facts, it’s like, all we want to do is double down on facts and like, correct other people. But actually, the thing to do is to go have a completely different conversation. Go back to talking about what concerns people. Go, go to try to have a conversation about values. And, and leave the facts over here, just put them to the side, you are not going to be the person who convinces this other person that their facts are wrong, if you’re coming at them, telling them that that’s the case. And you also have to be humble enough to realize, maybe on this factual thing, you’re right. But what are you missing in the truth about the other person’s story? Right? Because we, we want to feel all superior, I have the facts. They don’t well, there’s nothing they can teach me at this point. That’s wrong. There’s something in their experience, every human being has a life story. And we are all equally knowledgeable and wise, as people who have lived lives. So, look for the truth in their story and in their concerns. And leave that leave the thing about facts to the side, because we’ve got to build trust before we can build truth. But is the ultimate goal there to eventually at? Will I always I say this, not every not every debate has to have a goal of swaying the other person.

Maria Ross  32:23

Right. Can you have a conversation and walk away? You know, someone asked me, Is it okay to say we agree to disagree? Or is that a cop out? And I said, well, it’s not if you’ve had the conversation. How do you feel about that? Is it okay to agree to disagree? Because at some point, you have to you have to wrap up that conversation? How do you

 Monica Guzman  32:43

Yeah

Maria Ross  32:43

I think for people going into like, the contentious Thanksgiving dinners where there’s different politics involved or whatever. 

 Monica Guzman  32:49

Yeah 

Maria Ross  32:50

What what do you recommend for people as the closure for what feels like an endless loop? You might be in in a conversation with someone politically?

 Monica Guzman  32:58

What a great question. I think that agree to disagree, set in the right tone, can be kind of fun, and sort of release the tension that needs to be released, I guess, if if someone says agree to disagree, and it’s a way of shutting the other person up, or of trying to pretend that they’re not in it to actually convince the other person, then people can usually see through that. Right. Right. But but as a candidate, sort of what I’ve what I think it really means, but it’d be too many syllables to say is, I accept you for now, even though we are clearly different on this. On this, yeah, but I accept you.  Right. Which is really the hardest and most radical. Right. Is is can you accept someone who believes something you believe is wrong? Can you accept that they are human and that they are valid as as as a person with a different opinion? And then and then what gets fun is like, then you go to the activist mindset, right? Like the the activist that we need, right? We always need people to try to change the world, we got to make it better. So, so then it’s like, does acceptance that another person have a different opinion mean that I have given up on trying to make the world a better place? And I think a lot of people also get lost there.

Maria Ross  34:07

Yes. And that’s where I struggle, because you keep hearing it’s your responsibility to stand up, it’s your responsibility to stand up against racism and and, and non-facts or you know, a different version of the truth or to correct people. And so, but what I hear you saying, and that I think is great advice, again, going into the holidays, is you can you can close those conversations out with, I love you for who you are. And I accept you for who you are. And we’re family and we’re you know, we’re friends. And I love you for who you are. And it doesn’t mean you have to give up the fight on whatever other front you’re fighting it whether you’re protesting or you’re donating money or you’re donating time or skills to the organizations that align with your values. But do you really have to continue that fight in a conversation with someone you care about with a family member. So, do I hear you write in that?

 Monica Guzman  35:05

Yeah, no, I think I think that’s good hang. Yeah, I think it can hang in. And what I’m realizing thank you for this is that, you know, there’s something if you are able to make a closing kind of statement that conveys a curiosity and a continuation. I, you know, I’d love to talk about this at another time, too, when we, when we have more time. I’d love to hear more about x. That would be cool. Just earlier today, I was on an event where somebody said that they had come to believe that, that democracy was sort of like, the male was kind of cementing male dominance. And they just kind of said that and then moved on. And I was just like, I have to know what I’m doing. Or like what they mean by that, right? Because I have all these assumptions of what they mean. But I don’t know. So, I gotta go and figure that out. So, I so I told them at the end of the conversation, I really want, I hope we get a chance to talk again. But but I did it from this place of genuine enthusiasm, because I really want to know what they meant, right? So there’s a lot that we can stay open about, right. And we don’t have to jump to our judgments. And since we don’t have to jump to our judgments, we can say, I hope that this conversation continues past the pie.

Maria Ross  36:16

Right? Because if we can continue talking, then there’s hope that we can continue working together. It’s when you completely stop talking that everything is going to break down. That’s exactly right. Yes. Now I know you have to go and I’ve kept you longer than I was allowed. I have so many more questions, but I’m just going to direct people to check out your book. I never thought of it that way how to have fearlessly curious conversations in dangerously divided times. I assume it’s available and all the places all the places you can find their favorite books. All your links will be in the show notes, Monica. Thank you so much for your time today. And just really quickly, where can people find out more about you and more about braver angels.

 Monica Guzman  36:55

Yes, moniguzman.com for me; Braverangels.org, for braver angels, which has 78 local chapters across the country. And you can also find me @Moni Guzman on Instagram and Twitter. 

Maria Ross  37:07

That’s M-O-N-I, yes. 

 Monica Guzman  37:09

M-O-N-I-G-U-Z-M-A-N

Maria Ross  37:11

Perfect. And if folks are interested in how to maybe get braver angels to do something in their town, or for their organization, they can find all that at the site, right?

 Monica Guzman  37:18

Yeah, yeah, go on the site, look at the map. Figure out your local state coordinators and give him a ranking ring.

Maria Ross  37:20

I love it. Well, I hope this is the start as of us having more conversations together off air because I am loving your work. Thank you so much for your time and insights today. We loved having you. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always, you know, if you loved it, read and review it, share it with your friends. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.