In this special episode, I deconstruct Ted Lasso’s cultural impact and golden lessons on leadership and empathy with one of my favorite people, Elisa Camahort Page.You may recall her from a past episode – she is a leadership and business expert, as well as a devoted empathy and pop culture fan, like myself – and we both enjoy finding lessons to apply to leadership and life in our favorite stories and characters.
We discuss why the Apple TV+ show hit such a nerve with viewers (and us, as fan girls) and created a cultural phenomenon. We explore the leadership and teamwork lessons the show gracefully imparted, as well as how it expertly tackled themes of female friendships, toxic masculinity, mentorship, fatherhood, and mental health. We also dive into the brilliant storytelling construction and character arcs that kept viewers wanting more – and what we think might be next for the Lasso universe.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Good ideas can come from anywhere. Stay curious, keep listening, and give others an opportunity to fill in where your skills don’t cover.
- The little moments matter. They are what lead you to and away from the big moments and are equally as important.
- There is freedom in allowing yourself to feel vulnerable and embrace the challenges that come your way.
”On the surface, there was the super warm fuzzy and so much to love, but underneath, they were tackling the complexity of human nature, how nothing is what it seems, and we don’t know what’s behind everybody’s behavior.” — Elisa Camahort Page
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Episode References:
- The Empathy Edge podcast: Elisa Camahort Page: The Art of Empathy in Politics, Activism, and Media BS
- Ted Lasso
- Scrubs
About Elisa Camahort Page: Elisa Camahort Page is a fractional executive and strategic consultant who works with organizations to launch and scale authentic community and/or user-based initiatives, harnessing the power of people — community members, employees, and partners. Elisa was at the vanguard of the social web as co-founder and COO of BlogHer, Inc. In that role, she represented the face of the company to the user community and drove the transformation of a movement into a market. Elisa had oversight of the practices, policies, and procedures that modeled how organizations can build community, grow a business, support inclusion in words and action, and defend transparency and civility. Since BlogHer was acquired, and after instilling BlogHer’s community ethos into the acquiring company’s practices, Elisa has consulted with organizations that want to create compelling products and content, foster passionate community, and bring constituencies together in alignment with their brand values. A frequent public speaker and freelance writer, Elisa is also the host of The Op-Ed Page podcast and the This Week-ish newsletter, as well as the co-author of Road Map for Revolutionaries: Resistance, Activism, and Advocacy for All.
Connect with Elisa Camahort Page:
Website: elisacp.com
Find all Elisa’s Links at https://bio.site/elisacp
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why kashflow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Let’s get connected. If you’re loving this content, don’t forget to go to the empathy edge.com and sign up for the email list to get free resources and more empathy infused success tips, and find out how you can book me as a speaker. I want to hear how empathy is helping you be more successful. So please sign up now at the empathy edge.com. Oh, and follow me on Instagram where I’m always posting all the things for you at Red slice Maria. Hi, Maria here with a quick announcement for all you business owners, entrepreneurs and marketers out there. Does it feel like no one knows who you are or the value of what you do? Or worse the wrong people are showing up at your door prospects who won’t pay you what you’re worth can’t make the most of your offerings or suck your energy dry. My problem you say is I know I could get the right customers if I could nail how to talk about this thing. You may know what you do well, but figuring out how to talk about it and market it can be overwhelming. If you’re here you know empathy is the key to a thriving culture and perfect brand story that attracts all the right people. Join me to build the brand story that will attract more of your ideal clients and boost your business success. The authentic genuine story that is unique to you and your business and that helps you stand out brand story breakthrough. Five weeks, playbooks videos, live weekly coaching and even my eyes on your work. In the end, you’ll have your elevator pitch brandstory, website, copy, and everything you need to start moving your business forward and getting attention for your amazing work. Next cohort starts September 8. Get more details and sign up at Bitly slash BSB course that’s bi T dot L y slash b SB course right now before the spots are all gone. I hope to see you there. So welcome to a very special episode of the empathy edge podcast. I am joined by my lovely friend Alisa camel Hort, Paige. And Elisa, tell folks a little bit about you. You’ve been on the podcast once or twice, but remind us of who you are. And all you do and what you’re passionate about. Because today, we are going to be dissecting Ted lasso.
Elisa Camahort Page 03:55
Yes. Am I passionate about Ted last? Yes, that’s because I’m quite passionate about a lot of things, including pop culture in general. And one of my latest topics I’ve really been digging in on is what are the lessons we pull from and learn from pop culture good, bad and ugly? And since we consume so much of it, how can we sort of sit with ourselves in our choices and be more conscious about those lessons? But I, I’ve been in tech for more than 20 years and about, whoa, 18 years ago? No, oh, my gosh, I co founded a company called Blog Her with two other women. And I ran that company with them for nine years before we were acquired. And over the last six years, I wrote a book about activism and advocacy. And I think that’s the topic I came on. Yes. Asked and talked about Paulo jab for Revolutionaries. roadmap for Revolutionaries. That’s right resistance activism and advocacy for all. I also wrote that with two other women, and I am fractional C level for early stage startups and organizations. So I’m really all about out helping people scale and stabilize their models, their plans, their resources, I can help them get to the next level without breaking the bank for them. And while I have all this bandwidth available to pursue my many interests, including pop culture, and its lessons,
Maria Ross 05:17
yes, and we should mention your amazing podcast, the Op Ed page, which I love, because you do span all these categories, you go deep on everything from politics, to tech to pop culture. And I love how so often you tie those things together somehow, yeah, you find
Elisa Camahort Page 05:34
that the Op Ed page podcast, and then I also have a substack. That I mean, you know, that’s the thing now this week ish. And I don’t even want to derail this and start talking about social media and everything that’s going on there. Because now that’s a whole nother advertisement for that. But I’m either at least to see, or in most places. Now. I’m at least a CP and Elisa camelhair page, and you can find me and most places,
Maria Ross 05:55
right, and we, and we will put all your links in the show notes, of course. But you and I were personal friends. And we both were so impacted by Ted lasso, which for anyone living under a rock was a show that was on Apple. For three seasons, they did have the show or 433. And it just recently ended. I’m putting that in air quotes, because who knows what will happen next. But it’s from the creator of Scrubs if people are familiar with that sitcom, which was very smart, and very pointed and did make a lot of commentary about things going on in the world. But really just like lasso married poignancy with humor. And you and I got this idea to talk about this because we were talking about all the things and just the cultural phenomenon. That was Ted lasso. And I just want to get your thoughts about why you think it struck such a nerve?
Elisa Camahort Page 06:54
Well, if we can take our minds back three years ago, we were in lockdown. When season one was available, we were in lockdown globally. And you know, you have to really remember that, that global lockdown was the most impactful global, everyone experiencing some of the same thing. At the same time. That certainly has happened in my lifetime. I can’t think of other really momentous days or occasions. But the way it was experienced across the globe would have been very, very different. But that lockdown pretty much got us all in some way. And, and there was a lot of stress and anxiety and fear. And there was starting to be this divisiveness and conflict. So it was just a maelstrom of emotions. And when Ted Lassa came out, and I didn’t go with you, there was started to be a lot of hype about it. And I didn’t start watching it right away. And so by the time I started, I don’t remember if most or all of season one was available, but I binged it, you know, I saw I was able to watch a lot of it. And there was something so kind. So warm, empathetic, but not saccharin, not sugary, and it. And I think also the character of TED is transplanting to this British culture and having that cross cultural exchange and having that the complex that we’re had were cross generational across culture. I think it helped us process a little bit of going through this global pandemic and locked down together and feel like it just almost felt like you were putting on a warm, comforting blanket,
Maria Ross 08:36
I experienced the same thing. Because after every episode, especially when I had been consuming too much news and too much negativity and too much vitriol in social media or other places. This was my respite. It was sort of like the Great British baking show for me to be like, Oh, it’s making me believe in humanity again. And like you we were late to the party. Actually, last year was what got us on Apple. We after every episode, I would just always tell my husband like, I just feel warm inside. Like, I just feel like I’ve been comforted. And I don’t know if that was magnified because of what was going on at the time. But it just, it’s a TV show, but it just gave me hope that like, the world was not lost that humanity was not lost
Elisa Camahort Page 09:22
on because at every level, every character was really about defying expectations and being more on the inside than they appeared on the outside. I’m sure one of two of the reasons I probably didn’t start watching it right away is I don’t care about football slash soccer. Like I follow other sports, that’s not what I follow. And so I’m like, I really gonna watch a whole show about soccer. And to if I’m just admitting my own internal bias like Jason Sudeikis his character with that really broad southern accent and that gosh, shucks kind of you know, that’s like not like I’m a I’m one of those coastal elite guys. I’ve lived in New York and I’ve lived at Cal Warren Yeah. And I’m like, you know that I was like, How much am I going to relate to this? This right? Southern guy? Coaching Soccer, like, how am I going to relate to any of that? Right? Yeah. And the show was so beautiful about letting you be curious, which is a key point that comes up in a critical scene in TED, last of the dark throwing scene, with Anthony Stuart head as Giles, who are as Rupert, who I love back as exiles from Buffy, you know, of course you do. Yeah. My favorite actors. And we’re TED talks about oh, you know, people don’t have curiosity. They look at me, and they make assumptions. And they just, they don’t wonder, hey, Ted, did you ever play darts when you were young? And oh, yeah, I played every week with my dad, you know, they don’t have curiosity. And their that was a very pointed way, explicitly articulating what the show was nudging us to do throughout, we just have curiosity about these characters, and how what they are on the outside is only part of who they are. And there are layers, that we all have layers, and that they’re worth exploring.
Maria Ross 11:04
Right. And we’ve talked about the fact that the storytelling structure of the show was so brilliant in terms of that was how I would describe it to people that hadn’t seen it as you’ve got to see it. But don’t make assumptions from the first or second or third episode. Because the arcs these characters go on are just brilliant, and thoughtful and intentional. And they are not the same people that they were at the beginning of the season to the end of the season. They’re not even the same people. They were from the beginning of the show, to the current end of the show, right? And just that no one stayed static. And I think that that’s what kept for me. That’s what kept bringing me back episode after episode was seeing the tiny incremental changes in the characters without it being this like, shocking moment, every time or this cheesy, you know, sit kami moment. It was like it was like, huh, that was an interesting facial expression. That was an interesting gesture. That was an interesting thing for that character to say, what are they going to do next. And it was such a masterclass in writing and character development of how these characters grew, and how we grew with them over the course of the show, which is why I thought
Elisa Camahort Page 12:16
it was an interesting choice for Apple TV plus to make to release it week by week, even though the show itself had many arcs. And it really was a throwback to me. I felt like there was something very 90s about the show, because if you look at the great cult, epic, my favorites and pop culture, pop culture from the 90s, Buffy The X Files, lots of other shows, they have an overarching mythology that gets, you know, ticked away at Little by little, and then they have some standalone episodes, and they have some, but those are the longer seasons TV shows back then had 2030 Season 30 episodes, and to Lhasa had like 10 or 12. And but it had that feel to me. So it was interesting that it was written for the binge, but it was released in a kind of time release manner week by week. And I could see people getting impatient, they remembered the satisfaction of watching on season one or watching all of season two, but they forgot that that satisfaction was doled out in small doses until it all came together. And I thought that was an interesting choice on the part of the producing company to do it that way. I do think it’s a show best benched because you can really see that arc and get all the easter eggs and remember all your bring all your feelings forward. And it’s a very satisfying binge. And we’re not used to anymore. I mean, I think part of that is that culturally, we are not used to anymore consuming things on a week by week basis. We’re used to being able to really get this an epic saga going and watch five, six hours in a row.
Maria Ross 13:56
I mean, it was addictive. That feeling I would get from that show was addictive like a drug to me. I like I just I really needed it during the time period that you talked about. And I would have this such a feeling of anticipation, especially once we caught up and now we were like week by week of like, Sunday night or whatever night it was, I can’t remember now but like, oh, there’s a new tub so out and then how defeated I felt at the end. Because I’m like, I gotta wait another week to like, revisit these people that I love. And they’re fictional characters. Right? So and you and I talked a lot about, like, so many different themes that this show tackled. And you and I both being in the in the business space, leadership, development, empathy. So many of those obvious themes came out for us in terms of leadership and teamwork and how the the unique way that Ted ran the team, but there were also all these other themes, these cultural themes that were touched on. So maybe we just go through them one by one. And let’s talk a little bit about what the show He taught us about leadership and teamwork, because that again was a masterclass in, in how you lead and motivate versus command and control which, you know, Rupert was the antithesis to that. Rebecca was very much about command and control. And by the way, we also need to touch on all the very intentional Star Wars references throughout the season as but yeah, yeah, good, the good and evil, the colors used all the things, but what, what do you feel were some of the takeaways around the the lasso way, so to speak.
Elisa Camahort Page 15:35
So one of the things I have always said for years and years about what makes for good co founding teams, is having complementary skills with an E complementary and that if you just have overlapping skills, you’re going to basically knock heads, and it’s going to be competitive more than collaborative, when you really want people to fill in gaps. And so for example, Ted comes in he doesn’t know anything about football. And if he hadn’t had beard, who it was the walk, I mean, beard was the walk. And if beard hadn’t been there to first of all, put Ted on the right path. Sometimes when he said things that were true, but also educate Ted, the F beer, Ted hadn’t had beard, I think he would have been insufferable. Like he would have just been a Rube who didn’t know what he was talking about.
Maria Ross 16:19
Right. The shutdown wouldn’t have gotten him very far with Yeah. Meanwhile,
Elisa Camahort Page 16:23
Nate obviously had strategic vision. And really, he knew the game as well. But he also just had this kind of almost prodigy strategic vision, but he had no idea how to motivate people. He was a classic example of hurt people hurt people, because the beginning of Titleist so Season One, he is being treated abominably. While fast forward to the beginning of season three, and he is treating people abominably, in fact, that even started in season two, he is just passing on what he learned from people who were not very evolved themselves. So he had no idea how to motivate people, he had no idea how to be an empathetic leader. So but you put them together, and then you have Roy, the guy who’s been there, who’s done that, who people look up to, who people want to emulate. And now you have this team, that all together, fill in all the blanks and are like a superhero. cogen. And at the heart of it, though, is Ted, who cares about not just making them better players, but better men. And they needed that they were young, I think a point was made frequently that these were young guys, that a lot of things could go to their head being a professional athlete. And, and there were obviously some probably there were some wonderful father figures doesn’t Sam Sam’s father, they had a wonderful relationship, but but distant, geographically distant, right, Jamie? And there were some difficult father, relationships, mate, Jamie, and so Ted rod, kind of turtle, warm hearted, empathetic, you know, education to these guys that they weren’t getting in other places. And so I kind of feel like that was one of the key things that was brought up was this, you know, find people to fill in your gaps and appreciate and respect the people who do and give them give them authority? Right? Well, and that’s that their
Maria Ross 18:14
magic he he gave people agency he gave people he trusted in people to perform beyond their title or beyond their level, giving Nate the opportunity to, to lead to be to have a say to be a strategist and then eventually be part of the coaching staff. He was not threatened by where ideas came from. And that was such a clear, right? It’s what endear him to me. But also, it was such a again, a great example of leadership, where when you’re not threatened the way Nate was threatened when he got into a leadership position, and then other people wanted to have ideas and he sort of tamped them down. He didn’t really learn from Ted’s lesson. This idea that good ideas can come from anywhere and also seeing the potential in people you know, Roy was a player, he retired, totally cantankerous, some would say difficult to work with, and he saw that he was exactly what the team needed. And, and gave him an opportunity that he didn’t, that Roy didn’t even necessarily think to ask for. And so that idea of seeing the potential in people and not being afraid to harness it not being afraid to just let someone take something and run with it, and see where it went. I thought was such a powerful lesson for leaders everywhere.
Elisa Camahort Page 19:33
The other thing I will say is that it really it pushed back on the notion of caring the most about the big stars, the big moments the big. A lot of people got aggravated that there are key scenes in TED last so that you find out about afterwards you don’t see you don’t see it think it’s season two, you don’t see the winning shot. You don’t see Rowan Keeley breakup. You don’t see how Nate, you know the whole How did he quit? How did he quit? It route but Rupert’s team, there’s a lot of big moments, you only see that they’ve happened. And then you’re dealing with the little fallouts afterwards. So that was I think there’s lessons in there about, we tend to over focus, but it’s really those little moments that are leading you to and leading you away from the big moments. And they are important. And the other thing is that every time they kind of thought they would rely on the senior year, the lawyer, big star and big that’s going to deliver those big moments from a competitive point of view. zawacki insufficient. Yeah, Baba. But it was also Jamie and David Young, one, you know, and it’s insufficient, it’s insufficient for their needs. It isn’t even when they when there’s there’s loss there, you know, and, and so I feel like the show was really about honoring everybody’s contribution, and honoring that every small moment is what leads up to and comes out of those big moments. And if you gave them the attention, if you focused on them, you would actually be it’s transformative.
Maria Ross 21:03
Yeah. Okay, let’s shift gears a little bit. Because again, something related to our work and your own experiences running a company with other women is the the models of female friendship are presented in lasso. And you’ve heard me probably in the past, go on my rant about reality TV, not competition, reality TV, but like Real Housewives, all of these depictions of women being horrible to each other. Yeah, it drives me up a tree, because those are not things I want my nine year old boy to see. Because no women I know, act that way. Right? And so this idea of Rebecca and Keeley and their friendship and sort of these two, what seemed like polar opposites in the first season, until they both evolved a little bit, how they became friends, and also how Rebecca became Kelly’s mentor. Yeah, and mentor in a way that even at that point, I think it was season two, when she basically told Keeley to go to leave the job and go start her own company. That was, it was so moving, and so wonderful. And those are the friendships that I feel like many professional women have in real life. They’re just not depicted on screen.
Elisa Camahort Page 22:16
It was what are your thoughts on that? It was maybe my favorite part of season one was their relationship because it was born out of conflict, right. Keeley finds out that Rebecca was behind those pictures of her and Ted and she comes and instead of sitting on it and stewing on it, and then doing a bunch of passive aggressive stuff. And instead of it being a soap opera, where it just takes weeks for the truth to come out, she goes to her office to confront her, and then Rebecca, instead of reacting defensively aggressively, she apologizes. And they make up, they resolve their differences. And they build a friendship from there. And I thought that was just a beautiful depiction of for any gender, you know, the value of having the tough conversations, ringing them up early and often so that you’re not taken by surprise, moaning, you know, resisting the urge to resist owning what you’ve done. And that the I always say like, apologize if you have something to apologize for. Sometimes women get told, we say we’re sorry, too much. I’m like, okay, yes, maybe we say we’re sorry, too much. But sometimes you need to, yes, sometimes you need to sometimes if you’re sorry, I did a tic toc video about this earlier this year. If you’re sorry, it’s okay to say you’re sorry. Just make sure you’re actually sorry for something ran twice in season one, Rebecca, and Keeley. And then at the end, Rebecca and Ted, she has to apologize. She has to just own it, give a real apology, that shows she knows what she’s done and what she’s going to do to make it better. And in both cases, she has to take action to make it better, to make sure she’s not in that position again. So there’s this this amazing model of that and then their friendship was super fun, but also, like you said super much more relatable to me to the kind of friendship I have with women lately, and and so, so much about this is you know, people talk about women supporting women and, of course, you know, people often bring up like, if they’ve had one bad woman boss, then all of a sudden it’s like that’s working for women. And I’m like, No, you know, individual women can be jerks. Like no dial.
Maria Ross 24:25
It’s even an asshole is not gender specific. Right. Right.
Elisa Camahort Page 24:30
But but I really liked that you bring up assholes. I really feel like Ted Lascaux did a great job of saying why you don’t want to accommodate asshole geniuses. Why it’s never a really the thing that’s gonna make you succeed.
Maria Ross 24:41
Right? Well, and also just follow that thread a little bit. Why they didn’t give up on Jamie, who could have been written off as the asshole genius. And they worked on him, I guess in a way the mentorship what they realized he was missing was the mentorship and the support, so they took the time to actually see him and not just make a blanket assumption about, he’s just an asshole athlete,
Elisa Camahort Page 25:09
right? Even though he’s a star. And they they deflated his balloon a little bit, because that’s what he needed. You know, his ego needed to be taken down a few pegs, but they could have just written him off. And they die. He his character had a beautiful arc. Amazing. Roy’s arc was I think, less extreme. Like he just had to, like chip away a little bit like at the end when he wants to join the Diamond Dogs that’s like, oh, that’s the big vulnerable moment. But yeah, delta delta between ROI in the beginning and ROI at the end, is really not that wide, and just had to chip away a little bit open up a little bit. Yeah, Jamie had this transformation where he was really a deck in the beginning. And then he was kind of a hero of the third season. And I just thought that was beautifully done. And something you also don’t see all the time. Just like with the female friendship, you don’t always see well, how do you? How do you move beyond toxic masculinity? How do people like leave that behind to become better men? And I think we sort of swing behind this between this people saying everything is the fault of toxic masculinity without necessarily having solutions for it. More people who are like, that doesn’t exist in men are, you know, who are still mired really in patriarchal perspectives on gender? And like, what’s in between, like, how do you actually move someone forward?
Maria Ross 26:33
And how do many men actually relate to each other? You know, it isn’t it isn’t those polar opposites. And that’s why, you know, for folks listening that might not know exactly what we’re talking about. The Diamond Dogs were the group of men that led by Ted and beard and Leslie, Leslie Higgins. And it was their sort of support group, they could call a meeting of the Diamond Dogs, if one of the guys needed to talk about something like talk about a breakup or talk about a difficult decision they made. And it was hilarious. It was you know, them all going to like Ryan VI in the group of the Diamond Dogs, but and how, you know, Roy represented the looking at that from the outside in and going this is weird and uncomfortable. And I don’t know what the heck you guys are doing, and then ultimately, realizing the benefit of it. Yeah, and getting involved himself, even if it was a little tentative, and a little, like, I’m not really sure how this works, but I’m gonna I’m gonna go with it. And one of the most poignant things for me, was when Nate went to work for Rupert, and tried to recreate the Diamond Dogs with the males on the staff there, and it just didn’t fly, because they were all working in such a toxic environment. Yeah, they were they were too busy trying to save their own skin. Yeah. And present themselves in a certain way. And there was no, there was no room for vulnerability there. And you could tell it was just so poignant. You could tell that’s what Nate needed. And that’s what he missed. And he finally realized, sort of the secret sauce of what Ted had provided over at Richmond. And I just, I thought that was so I really felt for him, even though I was so mad at that character for so long. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, Oh, okay. He’s, he’s suffering from the decisions he’s made.
Elisa Camahort Page 28:11
I think they were also really great at not, everything wasn’t so wrapped up in a little bow. You know, at the end, Jamie and Roy, despite all the evolution they’ve had, they end up in a bar fighting over Kili. And acting like she’s a piece of property, they can fight over and go to her house and say, Well, you have to choose what I loved is that she was like, You both need to leave now. Right? I’d already to choose.
Maria Ross 28:35
I do love that her first response was like, oh, oh, I get to choose who I’m with, like this very sarcastic, like, Oh, that’s amazing that you’re giving me that opportunity. And then the next one is me the door. Yeah.
Elisa Camahort Page 28:47
You know, and also with Ted, I think the whole season three. So here’s now we could talk a little bit about the future. I think they’re going to do is show like the Richmond way or something. And it’s going to carry on with these characters. And I think they were teasing. They were kind of preparing you. So I always think about that song and Hamilton of the George Washington sings teach them how to say goodbye. Thanks. Season three was all about teaching us how to say goodbye to Ted the character and care about the the ripple effects of the last away becoming the Richmond way being as he really wasn’t in it as much in season three, and there wasn’t as much magical Ted and fixing people it was much more about them fixing each other Roy helping Jamie T. Lee and Rebecca like there was much more of that. And at the end, you know, they don’t they don’t give you a necessarily all tied up in a bow ending for Ted, but he has gone home. And I think a lot of people were expecting either he and Rebecca would get together which I never saw. I also liked the fact that there were male female friendships in this yes, that weren’t 100 NEXT LEVEL attraction or romance? Yeah. Or they thought I thought they were I thought they were teasing to him getting back together with his wife. If, but there that may still occur. Well,
Maria Ross 30:04
I have a question for you on that last scene when he’s he’s meeting his son, he goes home, he’s meeting his son at the door. Was he going home to his wife there and son? Or was he just was going to their son?
Elisa Camahort Page 30:18
Yeah, they’re home. I don’t know if it was his,
Maria Ross 30:20
there were so many little moments when the wife and her new boyfriend, their old marriage counselor, were in London. Totally unethical. They’re in London, and you can still see the spark. She’s still laughing at his jokes. She’s still like, enjoying his company and the other boyfriends not necessarily shown in a very complimentary light and a few of those situations. That’s where I started thinking like, Oh, yes,
Elisa Camahort Page 30:42
I did to understand his honor. It was it was extremely subtle work about what was different about Ted, that the wife could maybe that you could envision that the wife would want to be with him again. And I think it’s about him finding his vulnerability, him not having to plaster, a smile and a joke on everything. Him being the way he confronted his mother, who by the way, I did summer stock theater with Becky and Baker who played his mother back in 1985. So I just got nominated for an Emmy for this. And I Oh, my gosh, oh, so I feel connected even more to that. The way he confronted his mother the way he was able to not always have be ready with a joke and an old saying, you know, that there was a real human under there who was actually more authentic. And yet still funny. Still, you know, still all the things you love that Yeah, but but but a more well rounded, authentic character. Well, that was brought us along.
Maria Ross 31:42
That was the whole other theme, as is really confronting mental health as a whole was at the second season when he was seeing the psychologist.
Elisa Camahort Page 31:51
Yeah, he started he had panic attacks and the first season right, the second season, they brought in Sarah Niles as the sports psychologist. Yes.
Maria Ross 31:58
And that was a whole exploration of it’s okay to get help. It’s okay to not be okay. As a man in professional sports, and the fact that that was the team, psychologist, and other members of the team, were leveraging that resource and going to her. And there was actually a brief moment. I don’t know if that happened for you, where I thought maybe he was going to end up with a therapist, again, totally unethical, but there was sort of a chemistry between them. Yeah, I didn’t know what was gonna happen there. She was a hard nut to crack.
Elisa Camahort Page 32:30
I think that we’re trained to look for the romantic outcome. We’re just trained. So yeah, I did feel that at one point to maybe that will maybe when he got her up, she got the concussion. And yes, he had to take care of her. Yeah, take care, you know. So I don’t think it’s unusual that we end up having all of these kinds of shipping, as they call it in the, in the pop culture with all these characters, you know, so I’m shipping Colin and Trent from training grim, you know, because I’m just trained to ship people. Right. Seemed like Colin had a very nice boyfriend. And so, yeah, the thing about it also is, I think it’s, it’s great to show this resistance, because a lot of people are resistance to therapy, and a lot of men a lot of everybody. And I think that was a pretty realistic portrayal of why it’s so uncomfortable and why people are super resistant and, and yet that it can help and make a difference than just change your perspective.
Maria Ross 33:26
Well, and going under the surface on that, too, what was revealed through that was Ted’s, you know, Ted being this great guy with this big heart, treating his team, almost like a father figure, being a mentor to all these people, and then to find out his painful story, with his father passing away and leaving, and it was just, it was very eye opening. Again, it’s one of those things, you know, we say it over and over again. You never know what’s going on for people. Yeah.
Elisa Camahort Page 33:53
But it’s a fascinating thing that he came overseas away from his own son, yes, was probably afraid of damaging in some way in order to be a father figure to two dozen strangers. Yep. And that was a really interesting when you thought about it, you’re like, what? Wow. And that’s what his mother kind of came over to be like, hey, snap out of it. You know, your son needs you, right? You’re delving all these dies? But what about your own kid who was getting in trouble, and was having his own kind of acting out? And I thought that there were so many layers of nuance to what they did, which is why I admired it as a show. You’re on the surface, there was the super warm fuzzy on the surface, there was so much to love, but underneath they were really tackling the complexity of human nature, and how a thing is as what it seems, and we don’t know what’s behind everybody’s, you know, behavior and that grace and curiosity and all of those things will serve us and really, that all comes back to empathy right now, and and I think it just did that in such it. It did it Such a great way it taught us but in a really unprepared he
Maria Ross 35:04
yes that, uh, when funny, light hearted way. Let’s talk a little bit about Nate and his arc because I know you have you have thoughts on that. And I have to say one of the things, yes, it was very clear he was damaged and insecure. And even when given the opportunity, even when being mentored, even when being encouraged and supported, he betrayed Ted and the team. And I’m wondering, I’ve had this conversation with my husband a while, like, why, like when he was finally getting treated, I didn’t understand they were listening to his ideas, they were putting his plays into action. What’s your theory on what, what made that break for him, we understand it,
Elisa Camahort Page 35:50
I read a whole thing. I read something from the actor. And then I read a someone who pulled all the moments, the actor referenced a bunch of moments that he used in his process, and then some somewhere kind of pulled together a kind of sequence. And then I watched Season Two again. And for me, I was like, That is insufficient to explain your behavior, young man. But I could, what they tried to do was say that, hey, he has this totally withholding father. And all of a sudden, he finds the person who is going to be the loving Father who encourages him and supports him, but he has to share him with two dozen other guys and the staff. He has to share him with everybody. And so let’s see, he constantly notice the lack, not the abundance. He was scarcity mindset, like, oh, you you said this to me. But then you didn’t notice when I did this, or you didn’t comment on this, you didn’t give me praise for that. And you’re giving this praise to Jamie and that praise to Roy and this phrase to, you know, whoever, so he was always noticing the scarcity, not abundance. So he crafted a story in his head that, that the guy he thought was going to be his dad, you know, was really just like his dad, and didn’t care that much about him didn’t prioritize him didn’t put Him first. Like he didn’t see the picture of himself that he had them together that he’d given Ted. He never knew Ted had it at his home next to a picture of his son. And so not only did he have a mindset of scarcity, he felt constrained to ask for what he wanted to ask questions about what he wondered about, he just bottled it all up. So the opposite of Qilian, Rebecca, having things out and dealing with things in a healthy way, meat just bottles it up and holds on to it and just he writes us like Brene Brown would say he tells us himself the story about what’s happening. And and he sees opportunity and he has manipulated it. He’s looking for his next father figure manipulates him and he falls for the manipulate right. And so I still think that they took that they took him back without really hashing that out was crazy to me. And I’m like, and they didn’t show us that scene either. And but
Maria Ross 38:00
but we did learn more about the relationship between beard and lasso frown variants,
Elisa Camahort Page 38:07
which was like a shocker of you that was a highly impactful scene, right where
Maria Ross 38:12
Ted, you know, Ted reminds beard that hey, I gave you a second chance. Yeah, you need to give Nate a second chance. And that’s what that’s what we do. Right. But getting back to the Star Wars references, which I didn’t catch right away, but my husband was all over.
Elisa Camahort Page 38:26
You’re gonna educate me here because I’m not all I mean, I know that Darth Vader like Rupert is Darth Vader. Rupert is Darth Vader. He’s
Maria Ross 38:33
got the black robes. He’s walking like Darth Vader. But in the scene where it’s revealed, I think it was was it the end of season two that Nate left for Rupert’s team or was it the end of season one?
Elisa Camahort Page 38:43
The end of season two?
Maria Ross 38:44
The end of season two when the the camera closes in on their team practicing on Rupert’s team practicing. Yeah, all the players are in white. Like Stormtroopers. Oh, we don’t know. It’s Nate. But he’s standing there with his arms behind him and his hair. Did you notice his hair was getting gray. And that was happening? offseason? It was but I think that was a nod. I’m gonna get this wrong and someone’s gonna fact check me on this but I think it was Anakin Skywalkers hair started turning Great. Somebody started turning gray when they started turning evil. The Star Wars universe. And like, every time something like that happened, Paul would be all over it. He’d be like up. There’s another one up. There’s another one. But there was a whole thing where I was like, this is very dramatic. He’s like, it’s supposed to be there. The stormtroopers he’s like, learning from the Emperor like he’s the young Darth Vader you take out on his Anakin? Yeah, he’s Anakin Skywalker. And yeah, that was that and that was very intentional on the part of Bill Lawrence, the career Oh, so
Elisa Camahort Page 39:44
lots of musical theater references a child loved. Oh, yeah, of course. We love that. And lots of easter eggs. These are three was full of callbacks, season one and two. Yeah, the callbacks, and that’s what builds cult following some pop culture in my opinion is winter sand service. Things you We’ll catch because you’re a loyal fan and it makes you feel appreciated. You’re in the know. Yeah. Like I’m in the know I recognize that guy with a C from episode one season one, write your report in the airplane. Like I recognize his back and that means I’m a fan and now they’re recognizing I’m a fan.
Maria Ross 40:17
Okay, before we wrap up I real quick want to talk about beard because I loved that the show had latitude to take some of these tangents and some of the episodes and other
Elisa Camahort Page 40:26
time loved his episode when he wore the psychedelic pants. And yeah, when he
Maria Ross 40:30
was this whole was his what is it? Was it his day out in Amsterdam, or his night out in Amsterdam? I can’t remember what
Elisa Camahort Page 40:36
city they wrote. I mean, there. There wasn’t another episode in Season Two. That was a different one. Yeah, yes. But also, yes, he did.
Maria Ross 40:42
But there’s been a few shows that we have watched on the various streaming networks where you can tell it’s like they have just trust the network has just trusted the creators so much. Yeah, they’re gonna let them go off on this tangent. And I felt like the beard episode was that Yeah, so what do you think was the significance of the beard episode other than character development? How did you explain it briefly, for people that might not recall what we’re talking about?
Elisa Camahort Page 41:07
Well, there was an episode where he was trying to connect with his girlfriend, they were in a fight. And he ends up it’s like, if you ever saw the movie after hours, where it just, you know, he just runs into obstacle after obstacle before finally finding her and at the end, he’s dressed in this weird outfit. He’s in this weird club, but he starts dancing and you’ve never seen beard, let go physically, let alone emotionally and he starts dancing. And it’s just this incredible catharsis, really. And I, first of all, I think it was just reinforcing there’s more to people than you ever know. And that, you know, and that if you stick with something, let yourself be vulnerable encounter, try to work your way through the challenges. There’s freedom in allowing yourself to do that. He seems so free. Yeah, I have whole a whole thing about like, his girlfriend’s seemed really controlling and weird. And like that, that being part of the happy ending that he marries the weird controlling girlfriend. I’m not so sure.
Maria Ross 42:05
I know. I wasn’t loving that. Yeah. Kind of went with
Elisa Camahort Page 42:09
the whole Jamie and Roy regressing in the last, you know, couple episodes. You know, like, everything isn’t always just forward, right forward. There’s sometimes there’s a backlash. So
Maria Ross 42:19
yeah, yeah. And so you predict that they’re going to maybe do some sort of a spin off of the regimen. heritors, the Richmond array
Elisa Camahort Page 42:26
rang book titled actually,
Maria Ross 42:29
I think we didn’t even go into Trent Graham and his whole arc, but that was amazing as well. So I got four minutes. Yeah, no, no worries. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and digging into this with me, this was so fun.
Elisa Camahort Page 42:44
I was super excited to do it. I could talk about it all day. And
Maria Ross 42:49
thank you everyone for listening to this very special episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard, please rate and review and follow me on your podcast player of choice. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access, show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget. Empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.