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Leaders are being asked to be more emotionally aware and embrace emotions at work. But how to do that in ways that are appropriate and comfortable for everyone? Gone are the days when we separated work and life and we now realize that we can’t bring our whole selves to work without acknowledging our humanity. That can mean messy, uncomfortable emotions – and if you as a leader have not shored up your own emotional awareness, you may struggle. Nowhere is this more deeply felt than when having to conduct layoffs.

Today, my guest, Daina Middleton, discusses how you can get comfortable embracing emotions at work and building rapport – yes, even if you’re an introvert.  Daina shares her own C-suite story about her journey of learning to be aware of and embrace her own emotions to create more success at work and better relationships at home. Daina offers powerful and timely tips on approaching layoffs with empathy and intention, and ensuring you don’t ignore those left behind. We talk about why last-hired/first-fired thinking can destroy your DEI progress and designing severance packages that are more inclusive and compassionate.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• We are all human. We all have emotions and feelings. At the end of the day, if you want to enhance productivity, you need to make sure people can bring their whole selves to work. 
• Listening is the most important thing you can do. Let the blank space be blank space, you do not need to fill it with your own story. 
• Know when empathy and information should come from the leadership team, not just HR, legal, or middle management. 

“If you truly want to propel and move the organization forward, you need to allow people to go through the grieving steps.” —  Daina Middleton

References Mentioned:

The Empathy Edge Podcast: Lisen Stromberg: What Modern Leaders and Cultures Need to Succeed in the 21st CenturyHarvard Business Review, “Don’t Let Layoffs Undermine Your DEI Efforts”Daina’s book: Grace Meets Grit: How to Bring Out the Remarkable, Courageous Leader WithinA great article on Prismwork’s site on human-centered layoffs.About Daina Middleton, Co-Founder and Chief Strategy Officer, Prismwork

Daina Middleton is a former CEO and CMO, and current board member and advisor, strategy consultant, and growth architect with expertise in growing technology and services organizations. She has successfully grown and exited several marketing services businesses. Her success is fueled by focusing on creating market categories, driving thought leadership through partnerships and experiences, cultivating company culture, and executing operational excellence. Believing culture is the competitive advantage, Daina is currently creating culture transformations, inclusive leadership, and company purpose-driven strategies for businesses that wish to create better outcomes for all stakeholders.

Connect with Daina Middleton:

Prismwork: http://www.prismwork.com

Website: https://dainamiddleton.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dainamiddleton/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/dainamiddleton

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

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Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business.

Leaders are being asked to be more emotionally aware and embrace emotions at work, but how to do that in ways that are appropriate and comfortable for everyone. Gone are the days when we separated work and life and we are now realizing that we can’t bring our whole selves to work without acknowledging our humanity. That can mean messy, uncomfortable emotions. And if you as a leader have not shored up your own emotional awareness, you may struggle. Nowhere is this more deeply felt than when you’re having to conduct layoffs. Yet many leaders are trying to act like they have it all together or be robotic and delivering the news for worse center themselves in the narrative. Today, my guest is Dana Middleton, co founder and chief strategy officer of prism work, a consulting firm dedicated to culture transformations, inclusive leadership, and company purpose driven strategies for businesses who wish to create better outcomes for all stakeholders. We discuss how you as a leader can get comfortable embracing emotions at work, and building rapport. Yes, even if you’re an introvert. Dana shares her own C suite story and learning how to be aware of and embrace her own emotions to create more success at work and better relationships at home. Dana offers powerful and Timely Tips on how to approach layoffs with empathy and intention, and how to ensure you don’t ignore those left behind. We talked about why last hired first fired thinking can destroy your dei progress, and how to design severance packages that are more inclusive and compassionate. This topic could not be more timely, unfortunately. I hope you love it. Hello, Dana, welcome to the empathy edge podcast. We’re so excited to have you.

Daina Middleton  03:01

Thank you so much for having me. Maria, I’m delighted to be here. Well, I am

Maria Ross  03:05

excited to get into this conversation about how to embrace emotions at work, and specifically how to conduct layoffs in a inclusive and respectful and compassionate way. There’s so many great ideas you have for leaders, and I can’t wait for you to share some of that, especially given the current market. We’re in the current climate we’re in I know, this is an issue that many leaders are losing sleep over. So this is going to be a really valuable discussion today. But before we kick that off, tell us a little bit about your work with prism work, and how you got to this work around culture and purpose and bringing more emotions into the workplace.

03:47

Sure, I’d be happy to it is interesting. We all have winding paths in our past background. And I certainly started out in the marketing and advertising space spent over 30 years there have worn the CEO hats. I even worked at Twitter for a stint. And certainly don’t have the HR background as you would expect for someone to really dive into this space. But I think when I wrote my first book, which is called Grace meets grit, which is really about or actually aggressed me to quit as my second book. What am I saying is about leadership differences and in behavior, specific things like how different men make decisions versus women. And we don’t talk about these subtleties in the workplace, yet they have ripple impacts. So I think my interest about that had been boiling for some time. And then probably the real reckoning came, which is really where Leeson and I started working together before prism work was even prism work was when I was laid off. I was actually fired from a CEO role in the advertising space. And I did a bunch of self reflection to really think about what worked well. In my engagement there, what didn’t. And at the same time, I nearly lost my, what my marriage. So my relationship really took a hit. And so what I understood was that I had begin suppressing my emotions, not just at work, but even in the home. And that had caused a lot of trauma in so many places. And in doing so I had actually lost the things that make me good at work. And so as a CEO, I got to thinking about how often do we talk to employees about emotions in the workplace, and what’s allowed, what isn’t, what’s good, what’s not how to be accountable, because this is an emotional free for all that we’re talking about. So, you know, that I think, led me to where I am today, which is how do we create workplaces where everyone feels a sense of belonging, and you cannot create a sense of belonging unless you truly understand your own emotions, and are able to connect with the emotions of others. And so that’s really our mission at a prism work is to really power leaders with the right skills, the right thinking, the right frameworks in order to do that, and make them more successful because modern leaders have the skills they’re highly desired. And so that’s a little bit about my background, and why I do what I do.

Maria Ross  06:24

Well, I love this. And, you know, we’ll put a link in the show notes to Leeson Stromberg interview about the skills needed to be a 21st century leader to be a successful 21st century leader. And a lot of it is around empathy and inclusion and just general respect for people as people. And what you mentioned there that was so engaging to me, was this idea of like creating these cultures where people can be themselves at work. And I know, you know, in my 20s, as a Gen Xer, I subscribe to the whole, you know, you leave your emotions at the door, and you’re this different person at work. And you’re this different persona. And that’s what many leaders today grew up with, as well. And now the rules have changed. And not that we’re all crying on the floor with our employees every day, we’re actually getting work done and having expectations and setting boundaries, like you said, what within reason, what people are comfortable with. But we have this acknowledgment now that you do not park your humanity at the door, when you come to work every day. And whatever is happening to you in your personal life in your world, in society at large that impacts your particular group. You’re bringing that to work. And we need to have just a recognition of that and just, you know, we can still expect excellence, we can still set boundaries, we can still avoid burnout. We don’t have to take on everybody’s problems and everyone’s challenges. But do we need to work together in a different way now. And that’s what’s so exciting about the work you’re doing at prison work? What’s drawn me to this work from marketing and advertising as well, I might add. And so you know, it’s really just about I think marketers are drawn to understanding people. And I think that’s why there’s a lot of marketers that criss cross in these spaces. So that is just wonderful. So so when we talk a little bit about how to embrace emotions at work, I think that’s the million dollar question for maybe leaders where it doesn’t come naturally to be able to navigate what’s appropriate, what’s not, am I being too intrusive? And you know, am I not being? Am I going to be seen as weak? Do you have any general guidelines for what leaders can do to start embracing more emotion at work and start getting comfortable with it?

08:40

I can, and actually, I have a webinar about this called awakened at work. And it actually is teaching the science of rapport. It’s how do you connect with someone? The reason I went and did this is I learned I’m not very good at it, I think, partly because I’m an introvert. And so I’m not that naturally gregarious person who connects instantly with others. And obviously, even if you are there are people that you connect more rapidly with, and people you don’t so awakened, really talks about how much eye contact should you have? How much should you talk to someone versus Listen, use someone’s name, connect on a personal level, don’t talk about yourself. I mean, there are a whole bunch of guidelines that actually forged that first connection, that are really important. And then once you have that initial report, then you can dive into things like mirroring. So you’ve probably seen mirroring, I didn’t know much about it until I dove into this space. But if you watch a couple sitting in a coffee shop, and they’re engaging, that kind of looks like a dance to me, so one person is doing one thing with their hands and their expressions when the other person is naturally doing that. We do that naturally as humans and so there are ways to deepen that connection over time. Then obviously The key also here is not to be artificial. So we’ve all had the experience of the used car salesman spend who comes out and tries to connect with you and use all of the skills that I’ve talked about in a very unnatural way without getting agreement and alignment from the other person. And that’s not the goal, either. So I think that at the bottom line is, we’re all human. And at the end of the day, like you, I grew up in an environment where I was really taught that emotions don’t belong in the workplace, and it’s all about productivity. But it is all about productivity. And if you truly want to enhance productivity, then you want to make sure that people can bring their whole selves to work. And that includes how they’re feeling because you want that passion in the workplace, because that’s how you’re going to get the best performance. And so, you know, how do we teach and reach and connect with others at a human level. And I think that’s the most important guideline. But it also means that you have to know where how you feel. And I think also, we’ve taught people not to really understand their own emotions.

Maria Ross  11:11

Well, I think that’s a big piece of it. And you know, in my book, the first step of being an empathetic leader, or habit of being an empathetic leader, was to practice mindfulness, because it’s really about your own self awareness and getting your own house in order first and understanding your own emotions and triggers. Because otherwise, you can’t do that. with other people, you can’t do that in your interactions with other people, there’s too much stuff in the way in your own head. And so that this idea of helping leaders, or you know, if I can be so bold, requiring leaders to be more emotionally aware, that is part of the assignment. Now, that is part of the job. And it’s not because we’re just want everyone to be woowoo and hold hands. But it actually leads to better results, it leads to better performance, it leads to more innovation, it leads to groups of people who feel free enough to create an innovate and deliver. And so there are, you know, that’s the beautiful part of all this, there’s tons of research out there that show that when you’re more emotionally aware, when you’re empathetic, when you’re a good listener, when you’re curious, those lead to good business outcomes. It’s not just fluffy, nice to have stuff

12:24

100% And your mindfulness, I think, is a great insight into as a leader thinking about, again, we’ll go back to decision making, being mindful about communicating to people how you’re going to make a decision and why. So as I reef self reflected back on my own career, I thought, I don’t know that I’d ever really told people, here’s how I’m making the decision. And here’s why and making a decision that’s just applying mindfulness to everyday interactions that ultimately create better outcomes because you have people not just guessing what the outcome will be or what the process will be. And so mindfulness, I think goes a long way in the workplace today.

Maria Ross  13:06

Absolutely. And you know, it’s funny, because there’s two things that strike me about leadership paradigms that we already subscribe to as being successful leadership models. One is, you know, athletic coaches. You know, people often will cite sports analogies and all of this other stuff in terms of like coaches they admire about how they lead a team, they’ll take a ragtag team and turn them into a championship team. But a lot of that is them getting personally and emotionally invested with their players. So we see it playing out in front of us. And yet, in the workplace, in corporate, America, the corporate world, we shy away from that, which I find really an interesting dichotomy that we’re so wanting to follow those inspirational quotes of coaches in the workplace, and yet, we still shy away from that personal connection.

13:58

I do think there’s a tie back to the industrial age here. And, you know, I think we have learned there’s definitely value in applying machine type learning and machine processes to the workplace. But if you see the movement today, to your point, I think going back to much more biological analogies rather than industrial machine type of analogies, it’s really how do we take advantage of both of those things in order to get the best outcomes because a lot of our processes still have those industrial qualities and we’re reluctant I think, in the workplace to let them go, which is to your point, in the athletic world, the first thing an athlete gets is a psychological coach to help them get mentally where they need to go. But yet in the workplace, that’s considered woowoo fluffy stuff that is probably a waste of money, and it’s really interesting.

Maria Ross  14:55

Yeah, yeah. So I want to apply this to a very timely topic. work that we’re all dealing with right now, which is, unfortunately, due to the market. And due to the economy, there have been, there have been massive layoffs and leaders are being faced with, you know, especially on the heels of the pandemic, where workers put up with so much leaders put up with so much they adapted, they pivoted, they worked as teams. And now we’re in the stage where leaders are dealing with a lot of layoffs. And they’re struggling, because they were like, I’ve been trying to be this empathetic, supportive leader. And yet now I’m in a situation where I have to lay people off. And I know I’m impacting their lives. I know it’s for the right business decisions, in many cases, not all cases. But in some cases, it is for the right business decisions. And so they’re left, they’re left bereft, because they’re not sure how to approach this when they want to identify as and what they want their legacy to be, is as an empathetic and supportive leader. So when it comes to layoffs, you wrote, you co wrote a great article for Harvard Business Review that we’re going to link to in the show notes about how to conduct layoffs. And it was more the angle of without blowing up your d i efforts in the process, the efforts that many companies have worked very hard to build up in terms of a function in terms of a mindset, and then all of a sudden, you do layoffs, and there’s there’s ways to do that, that are more human and that are more thoughtful, so that you don’t, you know, burn the ground and burn the place down as you are, you’re having to do this very difficult thing. So can you share some of the tips because, of course, what caught my eye is the first one that said, you know, be empathetic. And so what you found so easy, it sounds so easy. Yeah. But can you tell us a little bit about, you know, approaching a layoff with empathy? And what are some of the things that leaders can think about? What are some of the tips that can make for a more thoughtful, human compassionate, layoff process?

17:04

Sure. And I think I’m one of the struggles that leaders have is that legal is highly involved in telling you what you can and can’t do. And then I also think we have all these productivity tools like the one that we’re using today, zoom, which allows you to efficiently lay a whole bunch of people off, but is that the most human and empathetic approach? And so, you know, I do think the first thing back to what you talked about is really reconciling your own emotions around this and acknowledging them. I think, sometimes as leaders, we expect ourselves kind of like what we do as parents to be superhuman, and not have to be affected by this, and really unpacking that, and being able to be a bit vulnerable about it, and to talk about it not to make it your story that goes back to that connection, but at least be able to relate in a manner that makes it feel real makes it feel human and makes the communication much more effective than just, you know, I’ve heard so many horror stories, as I’m sure a few were outlined in the article. And then so many have happened since that article was written, which is quite a few months ago now. Yeah. About You know, someone just logging on and not being able to get in and thinking it was a technical glitch and still trying to work and, and that person’s manager, not even knowing that that person was impacted, because the less was not published, you know, the legal has run amok, I think in these companies. So the first thing is having at the top, someone who was willing to put empathy and connection for people and to understand this is something that impacts people. And certainly, we can do the things that protect the controls of the company from a legal perspective, without losing our humanity is the very first step in this process. And unfortunately, even for companies like Google, who’s been well known forever to be much more human focused company has really struggled I think, in this with legals I don’t know for sure if legals involvement, but that’s my suspicion anyway, is him What do we do to protect the company instead of really thinking about right human impact? So I think starting with that human connection is the right place to start.

Maria Ross  19:16

Yeah, and I love what you said about not making this your story because I think some of the horror stories we’ve heard in recent in the last year, have been about CEOs making all about their trauma and their pain that they have to do this layoff versus really focusing on the people who are actually impacted. And just, you know, going off the rails with trying, you know, I think there was one CEO who was quoting Martin Luther King during her layoff announcement and equating it to the struggle for civil rights. It just really, really bad decisions that are all about making the leader feel better. And sort of like Please don’t hate me, because I’m doing this this is so hard for me. If that’s not the time for it to be your story and to center yourself in that narrative,

20:05

it’s not about you. And I think also, I was coaching a leader on this, how whitespace is positive space, there’s a need or a feel a need to fill the space. And that’s where I think leaders sometimes get into trouble. You know, okay, so no one’s saying anything that feels highly uncomfortable. So two things, you know, really understanding that listening is the most important thing that you can do. How do you just let whitespace be whitespace? And not fill it with your own story?

Maria Ross  20:33

Right. And by whitespace, we should clarify we mean blank space now. Yeah. Race with racial white?

20:39

Oh, yes. Yeah. Very good point. Just, you know, this, you know, like a white sheet of paper with nothing on it was where I was coming from, right. And then, and then absolutely, getting comfortable feeling uncomfortable. I honestly think that’s also a key skill for leaders these days is that we’re all really in unchartered territory. And we need to really get comfortable thinking that we’re not always going to feel comfortable. And that’s okay. And that’s a hard one, I think, for many leaders to really even contemplate.

Maria Ross  21:14

Well, I think, again, it’s that old school thinking that if I’m the leader, I have to have all the answers. And I can’t admit, I don’t know, or I, I don’t know where we’ll go from here. I don’t know if there’s going to be more layoffs after this one. We there’s a tendency to want to come up with all the right answers. And you can, you can admit you don’t know in a confident way, you shouldn’t be vulnerable in a confident way where people don’t think, you know, the world is falling apart, because you’re falling apart as a leader. But it’s perfectly okay to admit that you don’t have all the answers. But you will work towards getting solutions and getting answers for people because you understand they need answers to move forward. I want to talk about also, you know, the crux of the article was all around, you know, making sure you don’t making sure you factor in inclusion and diversity, even in your layoff decisions and processes. But also make sure you don’t blow up any progress you’ve made with D IB, diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. And there was a quote in the article that I really loved, which was, which said, savvy companies need to embed dei into every stage of the employee lifecycle, including separations. So when we talk about tips for, you know, doing these layoffs are five ways. And you know, any number of ways for leaders and companies to establish layoff practices that are rooted in inclusion and belonging. The first one, the big one is approaching with empathy. But I also want to talk about one that was very intriguing to me, which was making sure we’re designing severance packages. With inclusion in mind. Can you talk a little bit about that?

22:50

Sure. I think we tend to do a one size fits all approach to severance packages. And that might not be what is really needed. So really understanding where your employees are and meeting them where they are. They, you know, actually providing a certain level of severance for so many months served is a great example of that, where as or, you know, firing, the people that were last in are the first out, you know, we tend to think about these decisions and not think about Gee, someone may need to provide childcare or can’t respond that quickly. And they’ve only been here a month. So what do I do? And so, again, we’re applying these almost like peanut butter, rather than really unpacking it and thinking about, you know, what are these employees? Who are they what do they actually need? And how are we going to actually help them through this process in a way that’s meaningful and provide them with the tools and our resources to actually make that bridge occur?

Maria Ross  23:54

Well, and I also love that you made the point of offering severance packages to employees whom you’ve extended offers to, and now those offers have been rescinded because they are impacted because they’ve already left jobs. Right. So

24:06

often, that’s not even considered, right. Again, it’s back to legalise saying, We have no obligation, right to do something like this. So I think again, asking yourself, Is this about legal obligations? Or is this about doing the right thing? Because this is the real hardship that these employees or potential employees are actually facing.

Maria Ross  24:29

Right. And you mentioned in the article, an example of Airbnb, which offered a base package of 14 weeks to all terminated employees and then added one additional week for every year of service when they started downsizing, so that’s very, very generous, and that that could be someone who’s been there a week than their month. Right. So I also think, you know, as a, you know, leaving my brand strategy work behind but as a brand strategist that says something about your company and your culture and your brand. that’s going to be useful to you in the future when you need to hire back up again.

25:05

Absolutely 100%. And I think that’s one of the things that these companies aren’t necessarily thinking about. Like said, you know, lack of transparency, that some companies not publishing who the individuals that are affected, but then individuals actually creating transparency by creating open Google Sheets where everyone can see them. Right. And so yes, these will have long lasting impacts around their ability to recruit and retain employees. Absolutely.

Maria Ross  25:35

And, you know, speaking of the, you know, not having to hire, you know, do the blanket, elimination of jobs, but being more thoughtful about it. Another thing mentioned in the article that, especially if a company has ramped up DEI efforts in recent years, that unfortunately, if you follow a last hired first fired policy, you’re likely to disproportionately impact women and people of color. So can you talk about that a little bit

26:02

100%. So a lot of those individuals that were recently since George Floyd brought on, if that that was philosophy, those were the first to go as we’re contractors. So we have a disproportionate amount of contractors who actually are diverse candidates, who also were impacted by these layoffs. And again, not having that lens, and oftentimes, it isn’t an ill intended lens, right, the actual strategy may be Gee, I’m gonna say, go to each individual and say, you have to come up with two employees in your group. But if you look at those numbers in aggregate, and you start to unpack it, then you start to see some of those discrepancies. And so being able to have the time in your approach and process to be able to look at it with different lenses, I think, is also really important, because I’m not going to say that, you know, the, it was the intent of every company to actually eliminate their de IB efforts. But certainly a consequence of not putting those lenses into place this occurred.

Maria Ross  27:03

Absolutely. And I think it’s like you said, not always a bad intention, because people think they’re being fair.

27:08

Right? Right. Or they want to push down the decision making to the individual groups and empower their leaders, or that there’s any number of reasons to where you can get too into one of those situations, but certainly being able to back up and look at it and say, Gee, gosh, this was our intent. But this is actually what happened.

Maria Ross  27:27

And I want to talk about another thing you brought up in the article, which is not, don’t forget your survivors, I think this is one that is very much something that’s an afterthought. Because you have to realize how traumatized those people are when they’re left, and they don’t know when the other shoe will drop. And they’re living in fear. And they may have just lost really close colleagues, or their friends at work, or people that they relied on to complete their own projects are now gone, and it’s made their lives harder. So how can we make sure we’re taking care of the survivors? What are some, some tips or things to think about for leaders in terms of that?

28:08

It’s so true. And How often have I heard why should you be worried you you’re still here? Right? Right. It’s exactly what you’re talking about. And I think, first, again, being human acknowledging that there is trauma and loss with losing teammates, even if they weren’t involved in your own projects, and then taking accountability and understanding for even workload situation. So yes, in many cases, they’re tightening the belt. And all of those survivors are now wearing two or three or four different hats. So what are you doing to actually prioritize the work and taking accountability and acknowledgement for the fact that we can’t produce as much as we did in the past, or we’re going to do this differently, or I’m going to help come alongside you to make some of these decisions. Because there is, I think, a tendency, especially for leaders who have felt so much trauma in the process, they want to move on, they’re ready to move on, because they don’t want to feel that anymore. So again, in their self interest thinking about this, they’re not thinking about necessarily the people who haven’t been through this need some time. The grief a circle applies here, right? It’s going to take time for your people to get past the trauma that they’ve actually experienced. And how do you help them work toward that positive outcome? And the more you force it to the end, and skip all of those steps they need to in the grieving process, the more backward, you’re going to go. And I believe that’s the key to remember if you truly want to propel and move the organization forward, you need to acknowledge and allow people to go through those grieving steps.

Maria Ross  29:43

Right, right. And you know, it could be just a lot of listening. It could be you know, someone’s one to one turns into them talking about how angry they are about everything going on or how scared they are. And that’s okay, that’s still the work of being a leader. That’s not detracting from the work. That is the work.

30:03

It is 100%, like I mentioned, it may be the process may be, you are required to go through the steps as painful and as uncomfortable as many of those steps may need to be, you’re not going to get to the other side without that. And so again, I think the other thing that he senior leaders can do is equip their middle managers for this, and so often that the middle managers are the ones that get pinched repeatedly, right, they’re pinched from the top, and they’re pinched from the bottom. And how do we provide them with the skills, the support the guidance that they need in order to help people through that process? Usually, we provide them with nothing? Rachel, also, it’s not a good answer. What

Maria Ross  30:45

are some ways that you’ve heard of companies providing that support, so we can give folks just some things to get their their ideas flowing of the types of things they can do to provide that support?

30:55

at a bare minimum? It’s a q&a. That’s, you know, some information, if you get asked this question, here’s the answer that you can provide. But a company who’s really thinking about it much more holistically, may actually guide people to here’s how often we think you should meet with your team. Here are the topics that we think you should actually talk about with your team. Here’s some support in that here are individual support, if you’re struggling yourself, that almost never happens. It’s a falls on the weight of HR, often to do add an HR isn’t necessarily equipped to do that either. It’s better I think, if it comes from a senior leader in the organization who’s willing to help these leaders, take the next step and move forward and allow them to even event and go through their own level of grieving process. So again, it’s back to that intentionality that you talked about that mindfulness, how do we provide mindfulness for those middle level managers where we actually have a complete package and process that we can evolve and adapt, depending on actually what happens in that circumstance?

Maria Ross  32:07

Well, that’s why I love doing, you know, what I’m brought in even just as part of leadership and development or executive leadership training, to come in and do workshops on strengthening empathy, because I love being able to proactively be helping them build that muscle before they need it. And so are so you know, those are the current rate estimates. Yeah, those are the kinds of investments and it could be about bringing in mindfulness training, it could be about bringing in empathy training, it could be about bringing in folks to talk about the grief cycle event, and just really educating and arming those leaders with the tools and the skill sets they need. Maybe before it even happens, but especially after it does

32:51

100%, and even hiring the right individuals who have those skills to begin with. Exactly right,

Maria Ross  32:56

exactly. Yeah, looking for that and hiring for that emotional regulation, that emotional awareness and that ability to listen and that ability to be curious and dissenter yourself from the narrative when things get tough.

33:11

So those being comfortable with that. Yeah, cuz that isn’t necessarily a skill. I think that we think about when we’re hiring.

Maria Ross  33:19

We don’t and it’s, it’s what’s needed in today’s leadership. It’s what’s being demanded. And just like, just like work has evolved, just like industry has evolved, leadership has evolved. And I often talk about the fact that the old models of leadership were not laws of physics. We invented them, we can change them. Yes. 100%. Yeah. So Dana, thank you so much for this conversation, I think it’s going to be super useful to a lot of leaders going through this right now. I’ll have all your links in the show notes. I’d also love to put a link to your book, and of the webinar, you mentioned in the show notes for folks that are interested. But for folks who are listening to us while they’re jogging, weirs, just a quick place that they can find out more about you and your work.

34:03

Sure, LinkedIn is probably the best link I used to be much more of a Twitter person. But in recent times, that’s no longer the case. I am still on Twitter, but not nearly as active and I certainly have ramped up my LinkedIn presence. I’m also on post news. So you can find me there as well.

Maria Ross  34:20

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your insights today and for spending time with us. Thank you so much, Grant. This was delightful. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard and you’re enjoying the episodes you know what to do, please rate and review on your podcast player of choice, and share the episode with a colleague or a friend. Until next time, please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Leaders today need to understand the assignment. And it’s no longer about telling people what to do like a ruler from on high, filling out paperwork, or even getting a cushy office. Unless your WFH space is decked out and super-glam.

So I ask you: Do you fully understand the assignment….or are you working off an outdated model of the skills you need to be a successful leader?

 To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• Foster collaboration – diversity enables your organization to look at challenges from every angle without missing anything. And it enables the best ideas to rise to the top.
• Take the time to get to know your team as individuals.
• Care about people as human beings. Understand their context. Empathetically listen before you start preaching.

“You are absolutely required to inspire, listen, empathize, develop, collaborate, and foster trust.  And yes, deliver results.” —  Maria Ross

References:

Check out my newest digital workshop, How to Grow Your Business With an Empathetic Brand Statement. Perfect for marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, PR and design professionals, coaches, and consultants!

Gianna Driver: The Link Between Diversity, Inclusion, and Performance

Rhonda George-Dinniston: Why Betting On Your People Leads to Market Domination

February Hot Take: Why Can’t We Do Business With Love?

Lisen Stromberg: What Modern Leaders Need to Compete and Succeed in the 21st Century

Amer Kaissi: Humbitious Leadership

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business.

Hi, and welcome to your march hot take. Before we get to the topic at hand, I have a little shameless plug for you all, if you are a marketer, if you’re a business owner, if you’re an entrepreneur, or if you’re a PR or design professional or agency owner working with clients, I have a fabulous workshop that I created just for you on demand, how to grow your business with a magnetic brand statement. It’s an on demand brand messaging workshop, to leverage empathy to attract ideal clients with the exact right fit messaging, I actually share the templates and the tools and the strategies that I have used with my own brand strategy clients over the years to help them accelerate sales to help them stand out. And mostly to help them communicate in an authentic values driven way, so that they can attract the people who are the exact right fit for them. And empathy is a huge underpinning of that work. And that philosophy, it’s empathy as a tool for sharing and communicating your brand story that led me to this work around empathy as a competitive advantage. So if you are like I mentioned a marketer, a business owner, a coach, a consultant, a freelance agency person, a PR person, a design agency, and you want to help your business or help your clients communicate to and attract the right fit ideal clients, please check out the workshop, it’s only $39 You can check it out at red dash slice.com/brand-messaging-workshop. And I will put the link in the show notes. So on to this month’s hot take. We are going to talk about what leadership success requires in today’s world. leaders today need to understand the assignment. And it’s no longer about telling people what to do like a ruler from on high, filling out paperwork, or even getting that cushy office. Unless your work from home space is indeed decked out and super glam then more power to you. So I asked you, do you fully understand the assignment? Or are you working off an outdated model of what skills you need to be a successful leader? See leadership in the past was all about command and control. You did the job so well. You were promoted to lead others doing the same job, and so on and so on. But many people who are excellent at the work are never taught how to actually do the job of leading. Leading requires a different mindset, skill set and frankly, temperament. It’s not the same as doing the actual work. In a world where talented workers have options where people are demanding respect in the workplace, and where the data now tells us that innovation, creativity and engagement increase when the right leadership is in place. Here’s the assignment as it stands today. One you’re in, you’re responsible for fostering collaboration. Diversity enables your organization to look at challenges from every angle without missing anything. And it enables the best ideas to rise to the top. So it’s no longer acceptable to simply hire people who look and think like you, or silence dissenting voices, or create fear and competition among your own people foster collaboration, to take the time to get to know your team as individuals, what motivates them? What are their what are their lives like? Who do they want to be? And you must tailor communications incentives and career development accordingly. Invest in your people. Yes, it takes more time. Yes, it’s your job. Now if you want high performance and to ensure you get your own bonus, no, it’s not distracting you from the work. It is the work of leading. Number three, care about people as human beings understand their context. empathetically listen before you start preaching, accommodate for their challenges and differences. Get as personal as people are comfortable getting. Create a culture where people have each other’s backs. Be willing to be vulnerable and encourage connection and love for each other. You can encourage high standards expect excellence and be compassionate. We are not machines. We cannot turn our struggles challenges or mental health issues off to put on some quote unquote professional facade for embrace failure and admit mistakes. Spoiler alert, no one ever believed you knew it all anyway, that’s not the job of leading the job requires risk taking and encouraging new ideas, celebrate and learn from things not going right. It means you’re innovating or getting better. If you’re still parroting, this is the way it’s always been done, then you’re done. Five, be humble. If you can’t admit you’re wrong. What are you doing? Everyone around you knows you were wrong. And when you don’t admit it, you just look foolish and lose people’s trust. If you are still puffing out your chest, acting like you’re better than and not sharing credit or space because you think that makes you the big dog. It’s time to step aside and let a leader with humility take over to get better engagement and results. Let me be clear, these are not niceties. They are not a waste of time. They’re not distracting you from the work. This is the work of leading in today’s world. These are the skills required of successful leaders right now. You are absolutely required to inspire, listen, empathize, develop, collaborate, and foster trust. And yes, deliver results. If you’re lucky enough to lead people, then please understand the assignment. I’d love to know your thoughts on this month’s hot take. Please contact me through Instagram red slice Maria. Or you can always reach me through red dash slice.com. I am here for it all. And please if you enjoy this podcast, which is a labor of love on my part, please share it with a colleague or friend. And you know what to do rate and review it and let me know what you think. Until next time, take care. Remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Be kind.

For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

How can we elevate women by connecting and engaging with each other and holding ourselves accountable to our intentions? How can companies who want to attract and retain top talent do the same?

I had a great time talking with my guest today, Tiffany Dufu, about her mission to support and elevate women. Tiffany shares her personal story and the mantra her mother used to tell her every day that she hopes to whisper into other women’s ears. We discuss The Cru’s mission and business model – and how they help women and companies achieve success through support, connection, and accountability. We also talk about why connection is so important to achieving goals (what The Cru calls intentions) and why empathy ensures successful engagement.

Tiffany shares how the pandemic has affected women’s career goals and why employers and leaders need to understand this new reality and respond accordingly. And she shares 3 tips for connecting across diverse backgrounds that could transform the way your teams get work done.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• If you want something you’ve never had before, you have to do something you’ve never done before. Women in the middle (whatever middle means for you in your life) tend to be looking for meaning, advancement, and integration.
•  Limiting choices for women also limits choices for men, which then also trickles down and affects the children in the home. 
• The intention of “finding a new job” doesn’t mean leaving an organization. Leaders and employers need to bet on their teams, especially their women, and make clear the opportunities that they have in the organization, within and without their teams.

“We are the most powerful change agents in our own journey.” —  Tiffany Dufu

About Tiffany Dufu, Founder & CEO, The Cru

Tiffany Dufu is founder and CEO of The Cru. Their algorithm matches circles of women who collaborate to meet their personal and professional goals. She’s also the author of the bestselling book Drop the Ball: Achieving More by Doing Less. According to foreword contributor Gloria Steinem, Drop the Ball is “important, path-breaking, intimate and brave.”

Named to Entrepreneur’s 100 Powerful Women and Fast Company’s League of Extraordinary Women, Tiffany has raised nearly $20 million toward the cause of women and girls. She was a launch team member to Lean In and was Chief Leadership Officer to Levo, one of the fastest-growing millennial professional networks. Prior to that, Tiffany served as President of The White House Project, as a Major Gifts Officer at Simmons University, and as Associate Director of Development at Seattle Girls’ School.

Tiffany is a member of Women’s Forum New York, Delta Sigma Theta, Sorority, Inc., and is a Lifetime Girl Scout. She serves on the board of Girls Who Code and Simmons University and lives in New York City with her husband and two children.

References Mentioned:

The Empathy Edge podcast, Rhonda George-Denniston: Why Betting on Your People Leads to Market Domination – https://theempathyedge.com/rhonda-george-denniston-why-betting-on-your-people-leads-to-market-domination/

Connect with Tiffany Dufu:

The Cru: https://www.thecru.com

Website: https://tiffanydufu.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tdufu

Book – Drop the Ball: Achieving More by Doing Less: https://www.tiffanydufu.com/books

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business.

How can we elevate women by connecting and engaging with each other and holding ourselves accountable to our intentions? How can companies who want to attract and retain top talent do the same I had a great time talking with my guest today about her mission to support and elevate women. Tiffany du feu is founder and CEO of the crew. Their algorithm matches circles of women who collaborate to meet their personal and professional goals. She’s also the author of the best selling book dropped the ball, achieving more by doing less. According to Ford contributor Gloria Steinem herself, dropped the ball is important pathbreaking, intimate and brave. Named to entrepreneurs, 100 powerful women and fast companies League of Extraordinary women, Tiffany has raised nearly $20 million toward the cause of women and girls. She was a launch team member to lean in and was chief leadership officer to Leivo one of the fastest growing millennial professional networks, and so much more you can read in the show notes. Today, Tiffany shares her personal story and the mantra her mother used to tell her every day that she hopes to whisper into other women’s ears, we discuss the crews mission and business model and how they help women and companies achieve success through support connection and accountability. We also talk about why connection is so important to achieving goals or what the crew calls intentions and why empathy ensures successful engagement. Tiffany shares how the pandemic has affected women’s career goals, and why employers and leaders need to understand this new reality and respond accordingly. And she shares three tips for connecting across diverse backgrounds that could transform the way your teams get work done.

03:19

So much good stuff in today’s episode, take a listen.

Maria Ross  03:26

Hello, Tiffany du feu Welcome to the empathy edge podcast. I am so excited to have you here. And to hear your story and about all your wonderful work and helping to advance women

Tiffany Dufu  03:36

while being a fighter to be here. Thanks for having me.

Maria Ross  03:39

So let’s start off. You know, we heard a little bit in the introduction about your background, very impressive and the work that you’ve been doing. But let’s get a little personal. What is your story? And how did it lead you to this work at you know, founding the crew, first of all, and just the work of devoting your career to advancing women?

Tiffany Dufu  04:00

Oh, how much time do we have? My my life’s work is advancing women. That’s pretty much why I’m on the planet. I do mean that literally. For anyone who’s listening every job I’ve had every dollar I’ve donated every board I’ve sat on every social media post, every book I’ve written or contributed to is focused on how do we harness women and girls talent and ingenuity for the benefit of all of us. I’m very clear about that purpose. I don’t believe purpose is some mystical thing. I believe it’s simply a decision inspired by one or more experiences that we have in our lives. I could share a number of experiences that ladder up to that purpose. I’m the oldest of four girls so I’ve always been a big sister and I’m very committed to advancing them and therefore advancing all of my little sisters in the world. But probably the most pivotal has to do with my mom, Brenda, who found out that she was pregnant with me when she was 19 years old. My family My Parents are originally from watts, LA, and my dad joined the military, in order to just get out of the environment they were in it was the 1970s. At that time, Watts was a rough place, it was a rough time. And my parents really believed that if you wanted something that you’ve never had before, you’re going to have to do something you’ve never done before in order to get it. And so my upbringing was a bit of an experiment. When I was 16, my parents got divorced. And my mom who had been what I now call a non paid working mom, because all moms or working moms, yes, some are compensated, some of them are not really spun back into a vicious cycle of poverty and addiction and violence, that my parents had actually escaped and making that move. And in my dad joining the military, I had no idea what was happening to my mom, because I grew up as a preacher’s daughter, literally, with the white picket fence around my house, my dad had gone to college on the GI Bill eventually earned a PhD in theology. And that whole experience really taught me that we are the most powerful change agents in our own journey. I ultimately couldn’t save my mother, but I so appreciated how, for my first 16 years, she gave everything that she could to me, she taught me that I was smart, and that I was beautiful, and that I was loved. She actually told me that every single day as if it was the first time that she had ever said it, and I probably wake up every day, Maria just trying to get to as many women as I can. And just to whisper in their ears, whether it’s on a stage, through the crew, through a book through a social media post through this podcast right now. You’re smart, you’re beautiful, you’re loved, you can do this.

Maria Ross  06:58

Oh my gosh, I love that. I’m like, I’m getting chills listening to you. And that, you know, what a seminal experience to have that and to guide your work. And I love what you said about purpose not being some mystical thing. It’s a decision. Because I think we get too caught up, especially in the idea that we, you know, for me, I don’t actually believe we have one purpose. I think sometimes our purpose changes based on where we are or the stage of life we’re in or what our own context is. And we put so much pressure on ourselves to find that one purpose. And so someone listening to you might be like, wow, you know, I just don’t know what my one thing is. And it’s, I always say it’s okay to have more than one thing through the course of your life. Oh, totally.

Tiffany Dufu  07:39

Okay. And yeah, also feel like it just comes upon you. I don’t know anyone who was walking down the street and the skies opened up. And some voice of God inspired them to drop to their knees and to tell them that they are here to see but work with whales or something I know. Right? That I know I’ve had that experience. Know that. So I funny. I think that it really is just you deciding at whatever moment you know what it is for you. And I know multiple people who have chosen different purposes throughout their life to your point, I just happen to be one of those people that just sticks with the same hairstyle. I eat the same thing. I wear the same color nail polish, like, I’m just one of those.

Maria Ross  08:18

I love it. I love it. I’ve always been a little jealous of people like you to be honest. But yeah, I think that that’s such an important takeaway of purpose not being some mystical thing. So let’s talk a little bit about the crew. Tell us what the organization does. I know that you help women realize their intentions, you help organizations, according to your website, skyrocket their potential? What does that mean? What do we actually do? And who are you bringing together?

Tiffany Dufu  08:44

Yes, so the core is very focused on what we call women in the middle. You can think of women in middle management and the middle of their lives, in the middle of their country, in the middle of their careers, however you want to interpret in the middle. And basically, we found that they’re looking for three things they’re looking for meaning we all want to live this purposeful life, which is why we feel so much pressure to do that. We want advancement, we want evidence, evolution of the self, not just more money and you know, higher salary. And we also want some kind of integration. We want a holistic, rounded out experience and more and more we want our employers to value and to appreciate all the different aspects of our lives. And the challenge for women in the middle is that we’re socially conditioned to take care of everybody else. Our kids, our partners, our pets, our synagogues, our churches, our teams, our bosses, and what we often need is that whisper in our ear, like my mother’s whisper in my ear, reminding you of what you need to focus on in order for you to create a life that you’re passionate about. So we basically help women to figure out what are the things that you need to accomplish and realize in the next 12 months, in order for you to take it to the next level, whatever that means for you, we call those intentions, you can think of them as goals. And they’re tracked via digital tracking tool. And then we match you with a circle of about seven other people. So it’s eight of you and what we call a crew. And your crew is your accountability circle, you meet with them once a month that events called gatherings. And you use a pure inquiry based method of coaching one another in order to just hold one another accountable for your ambitions. And we do work with companies to support them in retaining and advancing their women in the middle through this process. It’s really beautiful. I’ve used the crew myself for the past few years. And it’s been a wonderful process. It’s not always easy to be held accountable. We say know that. It’s not always easy, but it is fruitful.

Maria Ross  10:53

Yes, I love that. I mean, that’s really the idea is that is that we’re moving forward. And it doesn’t mean we’re not taking steps back sometimes, or that it’s not, you know, that it’s going to be comfortable all the time. But the whole journey of, of growing and achieving and I love that you call them intentions and not goals, because I think there’s that goals can be such a loaded word. And you know, as a brand, strategist words are very important. And so the fact that you even call it a gathering the fact that you’re calling it a crew, and not sort of like an accountability group, you know, something really scary and corporate, I just I really, I really admire that and that intentionality of giving words that invite people in giving these these things, names that invite people in, versus putting up another barrier to especially women achieving their intentions. So well, words

Tiffany Dufu  11:45

matter a lot to me, I’m I’m English major, but also words have just changed my life. I read a lot of books, I spend a lot of time thinking and writing. And in fact, one of the reasons why I said yes to this, and I wanted to be a part of this is because empathy is a very important word to me and my family. In fact, empathy is the only word I need my kids memorize the definition of I love it. Anybody know what empathy is? So a words matter. And I respect that you appreciate that.

Maria Ross  12:14

Thank you. Well, let’s talk about that. So so why is why is the idea of putting folks into groups in connection, so important to, to Success and Engagement? What is the magic that happens in a group?

Tiffany Dufu  12:28

Yes, I’m not sure that it’s magic. We’re all 90% more likely to realize an intention, if we one, write it down and are tracking it in some way. And to if we meet on a regular basis with one or more people in our lives, to just remind us of what we were supposed to do. That’s how accountability works. So I’m not sure if there’s any magic to it. But certainly, for someone who is very overwhelmed, very busy, has a lot of things on their plate. It is rather refreshing to take a step back once a month, and really devote some time and attention to what is it that I said I was going to do this year?

Maria Ross  13:14

Why am I Where was I going?

Tiffany Dufu  13:15

Yeah. Where was I going? Like, what is the point of this, this thing called life, I think is something that’s unique. If there’s any magic, it’s just, you know, taking the time in the moment to do that when we don’t normally do it right. And to do it in community and collaboration with others, I think is just a beautiful part of the human experience.

Maria Ross  13:37

Well, I think that objective point of view is also very valuable, because we can we can say all day long, but I’ll hold myself accountable. But we’re busy and life is overwhelming. And we’re bombarded with so much in today’s world, that the best of intentions of us trying to do it on our own, can get lost. And that’s why I think it’s so beautiful that there’s this, this concept of a group that is reminding you of what’s going on when things get messy when things get overwhelming and loud and busy and crazy as life is want to do. So given that and given what we’ve been through for the last few years. I would love to talk to you about you know, you started the crew in 2019. And then, which ironically, was when the empathy edge book came out. And then the world shut down. Right. So what is actually going on for women in their careers and their workplaces? We heard so much in the media about the fact that the pandemic really pushed women back a little bit because when people were leaving the workforce, it was predominantly women that were pausing their careers and leaving the workforce to take care of their children or their families. Was that an accurate depiction of what was going on? And are we starting to bounce back from that? What are you seeing?

Tiffany Dufu  14:53

Yes, it’s a good question. I think there are two things that happened in the wake of the pandemic. The first was that at all of the domestic labor that women had been fulfilling, indirectly, meaning we had outsourced a lot of it, or piecemealed, or figured out how to get support doing all of that, that infrastructure was just pulled out from underneath us overnight. Because anyone who picked up a child came to cook dinner, anyone who used to drop them off at any anything that happened in relationship to all the domestic labor, all of a sudden you had to do and all of a sudden was under your roof. To be clear, we were always responsible for it. But because we found ways to either outsource or we have some kind of supporting infrastructure, we convinced ourselves to believe that it totally wasn’t on us, when we discovered in the wake of the pandemic, no, no, it’s really on you. And you really have to do this. And so that was a lot of pressure, it was a lot of work. And it was very difficult to manage. But the other thing that happened was that the aperture for what work actually is got expanded. It used to be that if I was in sales, and I really enjoyed solving problems for my clients, for my customers, and I really enjoyed talking to them and engaging with them. But I had a boss who was kind of a jerk, and didn’t give me the flexibility I wanted, I saw my work is something that I loved. And the boss is like something that I just kind of had to deal with. Somehow, in the wake of the pandemic, and everything that we were facing, the boss, that was the jerk became a part of the job. Like that became a part and it became no longer worth it. To have to deal with in flexibility, or people who you don’t feel valued you when all of a sudden you’re also doing all of these things at home, you’re feeling an enormous amount of pressure, you’re trying to keep everybody healthy. And I think that we had a real moment of what is it that I’m really doing here? And is it working all of a sudden now everything became a part of the work and flexibility and values and empathy became that much more important. And I actually think it forced us to make some more strategic decisions about how we wanted to spend our time how we were going to do that. And so I think some of the losing women from the workforce had to do with just the pragmatism of she’s got a whole other job that she asked to do. But I think especially for women who could not afford to just leave the workforce, really these questions around what is important to me, how do I want to spend my time now that I have even fewer little hours in a day? And is it really worth it for me to be in a place where yes, I might love the work, but there but who do I work with? What is the what are the values of the company? What is the culture? Are they providing me the flexibility? And all of a sudden that became much more important? And we got optionality. And so I think a lot of women left but then a lot of women moved to different organizations, yes, launched businesses, just the willingness to take the risk lessened.

Maria Ross  18:14

Yeah, well, when you’re, you know, when you’re sort of metaphorically facing rock bottom, it doesn’t seem like as much of a risk anymore, you know, got it. It’s sort of like, we’re here. And this is our only option. So let’s launch the business. Let’s go after the new career. Let’s go back to school, let’s do the things that we can. I really find it interesting what you’re talking about, about, you know, oftentimes it was women who obviously would take on the brunt in many relationships. I know there are always exceptions to the rule. But on the whole, that’s what the data show. But you know, another another aspect to the fight for pay equity, for example, is that what happened during the pandemic of women being the ones in the partnership or in the family that ended up leaving their jobs, to take care of children or take care of whatever needed to be taken care of, was also also hurt men. Because if there was pay equity, men, some men would have had that choice. But because on the hole in a relationship, many men are making more than the women in the relationship. And I read an article I wish I could remember where it was. So I could put it in the show notes. But it talks about the fact that this is what we mean by lack of pay equity hurts everybody, not just women. And we actually limited men’s choices during the pandemic, because of that dynamic. And it goes even

Tiffany Dufu  19:36

further. It goes even further, Maria, because when men can’t be engaged at home, because now they’re having to work overdrive because they’re now the primary breadwinner, it deprives kids, you know, yes, people in the home of having access to multiple ways of doing things, of executing tasks and so everyone wins when everyone is a Well to engage in both the private sphere and the public.

Maria Ross  20:04

Absolutely. And, like the follow up question to that, that I was asking was, are you seeing, you know, as the makeup of the women in the different crews changes, as you know, now that not that the pandemic is over, but as we’re sort of coming out of it, hopefully with a light at the end of the tunnel, at some point, are you seeing a change in how women are approaching their careers and work? Because of what they went through? In the pandemic?

Tiffany Dufu  20:30

Yes, I’m seeing women who are a little bit more senior, really thinking about what was going to be my next the next stage sooner probably than they would have. I’m seeing a lot of portfolio careers. So you know, I’m going to do this day job, but I’ve got a side hustle, what are some other things that I can do to sustain myself and really explore, you know, what the options are a lot more people taking, you know, the risk, quote, unquote, risk of starting their own business. But also, I think a lot of people really thinking about what are the opportunities within my company, what is the career trajectory that I can carve out for myself, given this new insight that I have about what’s most important to me, and what’s really valuable, and in some ways, really, it’s fueled the ambition, to want to do more, to want to be more. So I think it’s changed everyone that shaped everyone, but depending upon where they are, they’re having different responses to it.

Maria Ross  21:41

Well, and I think, you know, kind of relevant to the topic of empathy that we talk about on the show all the time. It’s understanding that that’s what many of these women are thinking and feeling right now. And so, you know, if you are a sea level leader, an HR leader, someone working with your company, culture and executive development, to understand that this is where women are right now. And this is what they’re thinking, what are you as an organization and a culture, doing to address that to either respond to it, or provide flexibility around it or lean into it so that, you know, we can keep people and retain that top talent. So I love that you’re sharing this, this insight with all the women that you work with, that you’re seeing this trend?

Tiffany Dufu  22:24

Oh, absolutely. One of the most important things that I’ve encouraged managers to do and organizations to do is to really communicate your allegiance to the women in your organization, beyond whatever team they’re on. One of the intentions that is uploaded on our platform at the crew in relationship to career is finding a new job. And companies that we partner with are often very alarmed that their employees are uploading that they want to find a new job. But when you look deeper at the data, what you’ll discover is that they want to find a new job, but they don’t necessarily want to find a new company. It’s just that navigating the politics, particularly with their manager of the fact that they don’t want to be on that team, or there’s something else that they want to explore. It’s so much more complicated than just going and applying for a job outside of the organization. And so in as much as senior leaders can really communicate the multitude of pathways for growth and development within a company outside of the team that someone is currently in is so important. So they can feel that they can grow, even if it’s not with that manager on that particular team. I love that

Maria Ross  23:37

you’re saying this, because I just recently recorded another podcast that will have probably already aired by the time we aired this one. So I will put a link in the show notes to it with the chief learning officer at TBWA worldwide Rhonda George Dennison. And she was talking about the fact that they have such a strong ethos that their company about betting on their people, and having a very clear and pragmatic understanding that they may only have those performers for three or four years. And then they might move on. But it’s about helping elevate them, and nourish them and support them and helping them grow and expand while they’re there. And I just loved that refreshing, realistic mindset of understanding. You know, we don’t have lifers anymore. And I think there’s still a lot of companies out there that still have that smug mindset, that well, you should just be thankful you have a job and you’re going to you know, you’re going to be here and you’re going to put up with whatever for 20 or 30 years. That’s not the way it works anymore. And I love the way TBWA worldwide is leaning into that and going we are going to develop you as much as possible. So you are completely productive. And their goal is not to keep people there their whole career. But for people to look back on their career and say I did my best work in that role. Even if I was new there three or four years. I know right? It’s just Whoa, if every refreshing, it’s refreshing because if every company operated that way, they’d actually You know, I think I titled the podcast episode, like how betting on your people leads to market dominance, because that is the attitude that’s going to help you win. And this is why again, you know, empathy is not just good for society, it’s great for business. It’s following that empathy to your people, so that you can meet them where they are. And they will, they will, you know, Storm bridges for you, they will do the work, they will innovate, they will create, they will move the needle in terms of the performance of the company, if you bet on them. And you know, your work helping companies bet on women is so important, because it’s especially those groups that have not been bet on before.

Tiffany Dufu  25:40

That’s it? That’s so true.

Maria Ross  25:42

So can you talk to me a little bit about your either your personal philosophy or the philosophy of the crew, on the role empathy can play, when you’re ensuring meaningful and fruitful connections.

Tiffany Dufu  25:56

So at the crew, we use an inquiry based peer coaching model that in a lot of ways is rooted in empathy. And one of the things that we teach and we have to recalibrate our members around is what empathy really is, when it comes to supporting other people. Oftentimes, what we find in the very beginning is that a member of who is being coached, who has an intention and might be struggling, shares, what their challenges, and then someone else will weigh in with either what they did, when they weren’t in that person situation, or what they imagined they would do, if they were in that person situation. Because since we were in kindergarten, we were told that to be a good steward is to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. And so that’s why we do that. But that actually is not empathy, in the way that we need it to happen. When you’re trying to hold space. For others. Empathy is about actually taking yourself out of the center of someone else’s experience, and really holding space for them and keeping them at the center of their own experience by asking them questions, like, what is challenging about this for you? Who else should be involved? Well, what would happen if you asked for exactly what you wanted? What do you need from us in order for you to be able to move forward? That’s empathy. And so for us at the crew, it’s really about recalibrating empathy from I’m going to tell this person what to do to, I’m really going to hold back and I’m really going to support this person honoring their feelings, their emotions, their challenges, their barriers, their opportunities, they can find some success, I think it’s really critical. It’s critical at the crew, it’s critical in my family, it’s critical in my life

Maria Ross  27:56

in life, right? Yeah, I mean, that’s, you know, I spend many of my talks at the beginning debunking the myths of what people think empathy is. And what you’re describing is something I call empathy, hijacking, which we do with the best of intentions, yeah, when we hear someone’s story, and we say, and we think we’re connecting with that, we actually think we’re being empathetic by saying, I know how you feel, because one time when I did this, and then all of a sudden the story is about you and not them. And there might be an appropriate time to share that information. But you have to ask for consent. You know, would it be helpful to you if I shared something similar that I went through? And someone could say, No, I just really want to vent right now. Right? Or, or? No, that’s, that’s gonna be very different from my situation. And so again, I think we do it with the best of intentions. I know, I’ve been guilty of it in the past. And I’ve talked about it on the show before, but I survived a near fatal brain injury in the past of ruptured brain aneurysm. And when I was going through my very difficult, amazing recovery, you know, that’s how people connected with me because they felt uncomfortable. They didn’t know what else to say. And so it was like, Oh, I know exactly how you feel. I forget things all the time. And I have to write things down, or I know exactly how you feel. I think you’re just getting older. And maybe it wasn’t the brain injury that’s causing this cognitive deficit. It’s something else. And again, very good intentions. But intention is not the same as impact. And so I love that you’re actively working on that with the crew. And really what you said recalibrating people around, remembering that it’s about their experience and their story and what they need, and really being with them and there may come a time in place where you can share the benefit of your experience. If they ask I need to what I need is to know how you handled it. Tiffany, did you ever experience anything like this? What did you do in that situation? Or what would you do if you were me? And sometimes we do ask those questions. But sometimes that’s not what we need in that moment.

Tiffany Dufu  29:56

I learned a new term empathy hijacking. I love that Yeah, we’ll use that and give you credit TM

Maria Ross  30:02

No, I’m just kidding. It’s not to him. But I mean, because it’s true. And like I said, I have not perfect. And I’ve been guilty of it too, because I think we’re not. We’re not educated about empathy. And, you know, my son’s eighth, and they’re doing a lot more social emotional learning than they did when I was in school. And I’m, you know, they are starting to understand the language and a little bit of the difference between empathy and sympathy and all these things. But I love that you’re working on it actively with the women in your community. One kind of last topic for us to talk about is I would love to have your perspective or even how the crew sets the expectation. What are some of the best ways to connect with people across diverse experiences and backgrounds? What have you found has worked well, because when you’re putting these crews together, people are coming from very different places, and very different upbringings even, and life experiences. So

30:57

what is your advice? Or what is your philosophy at the

Maria Ross  31:00

crew around helping these women connect and create trust in a very short period of time with people that might be very different from them?

Tiffany Dufu  31:09

Great question. There are three things that I think are important in order to do that.

Maria Ross  31:13

I love that, yes, everything’s right now?

Tiffany Dufu  31:16

Well, because we’re all about building meaningful connections at the crew. And you’re absolutely correct that when you’re matching people who don’t know one another, then you really have to level set expectations. So first is around having some kind of organizing principle, that is the foundation for why it is you’re coming together. For us at the crew, its intentions, we are here to help one another realize our life intentions. And that is the core purpose of the gathering. It’s not to bend, it’s not to quilt, it’s not to dish. We’re here specifically for that purpose. And we all share that common mission of supporting one another and doing that. The second thing is to really set norms to set expectations. What does effective communication mean to you? What does commitment mean to you and to really identify the behaviors that people are going to agree upon that denotes commitment, and I hone in on commitment, because it’s something that in a meaningful relationship, you have to feel a sense of in order for you to feel like this is really working, one of the things that we do is we set a norm around response time, because there are some people, I don’t know, let’s say a publicist, who lives in a 24 hour news cycle. And if a member reaches out to her, where she reaches out to a member, and there’s no response, within six hours, the person is ignoring them, you might have another person who was in the publishing world, that person disappears for an entire week to read a manuscript. And so their notion of response time around commitment is very different. And so okay, we’re going to agree that 72 hours is going to be our response time, if I don’t hear from another from one of the members of my court and 72 hours, then I’m going to, I can then think, well, something’s wrong, they’re not being responsive to me, if it has 72 hours haven’t passed, they’re in their own worlds, they’re doing their own thing. So I think that having an organizing principle, setting norms from the beginning, and then third, having a very clear mechanism for how you’re going to interact with one another. And that provides some kind of structure. So for us, it is the actual gathering, people take turns, there’s a timekeeper, there’s a note taker, people share, they receive a series of open ended questions from their crew, I think that’s really important to teach people how to engage with one another in a new way. Otherwise, all of the people who didn’t go through the programming that your son’s going through at eight, to learn how to be empathetic with the between empathy and sympathy, they’re gonna bring all of their expectations to the table, and people are gonna be crossing each other

Maria Ross  34:03

completely. And I mean, and that’s true across whether whatever industry they’re in or whatever, you know, there’s there’s cultural differences as well. You know, where, what country are you from? Where are you from, there’s different, there’s different constructs of time in different places, you know, having traveled a lot, it can be frustrating to someone from the United States to go somewhere like Spain or to Italy and understand that time does not work the same way in terms of getting back I’m,

Tiffany Dufu  34:29

I’m from Seattle, married to a man from Ghana, Africa. So we live in our home with a different, very different constructs around

Maria Ross  34:38

time. Oh, completely. And I’m from New York originally, but I’ve lived on the West Coast since 1999. And it’s a different thing. It’s a completely different thing. So, but I love this because you can kind of map this to organizational components like number one being like your mission and vision, your why what is your organizing principle number two, your norms and expectations are Just you know, your, your culture, your values, how you get things done. And, you know, similar to number three as well, but also just why are we here? Who are we serving? And how are we going to work together. And often we, those are things that people feel like they don’t have to spend time on in an organization or in any group, in a parent teacher group or not, you know, a volunteer group, we kind of skip those steps. And then it brings about so many issues, and especially in the workplace, we should not be skipping those steps, just like we wouldn’t skip somebody’s orientation, or, you know, helping them figure out where the bathroom is, and how to get their laptop, all those things, we still need to do that within groups. And even within groups that are dynamic and forming and reforming, like different project teams, or different whatever, even though you know those people, you might not know them in the context of the project or the team that you’re working on with them. And so taking the time to set those principles upfront. And those expectations up front is so powerful, and that is empathy. Because that’s all about I always believe that setting clear expectations is actually empathetic. Because then you’re providing you’re not leaving people in the dark. You’re giving them some guidance, and that that to me is a very empathetic thing to be very clear about expectations. So I thank you for that. So this has been a wonderful conversation. Tell us a little bit before we leave about your book, drop the ball achieving more by doing less.

Tiffany Dufu  36:30

Tell us about oh, I wrote a book called drop the ball because I’m someone who used to be terrified of ever dropping a ball. I used to think it was the worst thing you could do. It meant that you were failing to take timely action and disappointing yourself, your community. In my case, as dramatic as it sounds, I would be disappointing the entire black race as in, they’re never going to hire another black person again, if I mess this up. So I did not develop some amazing philosophy on how to get over this or dropped the ball. I just had a life changing event. Many people have them. For me, it was the birth of my first child, it could be a diagnosis, it could be a traumatic brain injury, it could be anything that causes you to have all of your balls all over the floor. And I just had a huge epiphany that when that happened to me, Armageddon never hit all the things that I was always worried would happen. None of them happened. No one called to tell me they didn’t love me anymore. I didn’t get fired. No one came to arrest me. So I just overtime decided to reappropriate the word really looking at why do I feel so much pressure to keep all these balls in the air to begin with. And that really was the impetus for for the book and supporting other individuals, women men in the life with just figuring out what matters most to you and how to engage others and how to be efficient in your life.

Maria Ross  37:53

I love it. Well, we will have a link to the book as well in the show notes as well as all the links to stay in touch with you. Where’s the best place people can find out more about

Tiffany Dufu  38:01

you and your work? Oh, the crew.com Tiffany do foo.com I’ve got great SEO I think I’m the only Tiffany do foo in the world. So everything every

Maria Ross  38:14

I love it. I love it. At least you’re not I compete with a some anime character from a video game that’s named Lieutenant Maria Ross. So yeah, that’s what I get to compete with. But yeah, and we should say the crew, th e CR u.com. And again, we will have all your links in the show notes. But this has been such a delightful conversation. Thank you, thank you for the work that you’re doing to elevate and advance women and, you know, like you said on your website, what you want on your tombstone, I think you’re gonna achieve it. She got to as many women as she could. And you’re well on your way to getting to as many women as you can. So thank you. Thank you. It’s been a joy. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode and another wonderful guest on the empathy edge podcast. You know what to do. If you liked what you heard, please share it with a colleague and don’t forget to rate and review and until we meet again next time. Always remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

Maria Ross  39:17

For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Modern media and the state of journalism today is, well…interesting. With fake news, misinformation, and clickbait – combined with more news outlets folding or being snapped up by private equity companies – it’s a bit of a minefield. So I reached out to my friend Dr. Gina Baleria to help us make sense of it all. 

Today, Gina and I talk about the state of the journalism industry. We discuss that in addition to knowing how to write, research, and interview, journalists need intangible skills such as empathy, curiosity, community engagement, and tenacity to ensure all voices are included and authentically conveyed.  We discuss how journalists balance empathy and connection with their task at hand. Gina also shares how we, as consumers, can reduce our draw to misinformation, why media plays to our emotions, and offers strategies to help us build media literacy so we  consume it in a more thoughtful way to engage and see each other’s humanity, rather than disconnect.

 To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• Social media allows for more voices to be heard that may not previously have had a platform. This is a double-edged sword.
• Journalists can put the information out into the world, but they do not have control over how consumers choose to engage with that content. 
• Have external cues to stop yourself from Doom Scrolling on social media. The more “suggested for you” content you look at, the more you will be shown. 
• Give yourself pause to do a little bit of research before you share inflammatory news articles or posts. You have the option to be discerning about what you choose to consume and share. 

“As people are less aware of what’s going on in their local community, and only see national news, studies show that lack leads to more polarization, which leads to less civic engagement, which leads to a whole host of issues.” —  Dr. Gina Baleria

About Dr. Gina Baleria:

Dr. Gina Baleria, Ed.D., is an assistant professor of digital media, media writing, podcasting, and journalism at Sonoma State University and a former broadcast and digital journalist. Her book, The Journalism Behind Journalism explores how to cultivate intangible journalistic skills, such as curiosity, empathy, tenacity, recognizing implicit biases, and writing inclusively. Gina also produces and hosts the podcast News in Context. Prior to teaching, Gina was an award-winning broadcast & digital journalist at stations including KCBS Radio, KGO TV, & KGO Radio in San Francisco; KXTV & KFBK in Sacramento; and KCAL in Los Angeles. She also helped create and manage a digital newsroom at the nonpartisan nonprofit governance organization, California Forward. Outside of work, Gina enjoys hiking, reading, and spending time with friends and family. She and her husband live in San Francisco. 

Connect with Gina Baleria:

Book: The Journalism Behind Journalism:  Going Beyond the Basics to Train Effective Journalists in a Shifting Landscape (Routledge 2021) Also available on Amazon.

Her podcast: News in Context – http://newsincontext.net/

Sonoma State University: https://coms.sonoma.edu/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ginabaleria/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newsdawg13

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newsincontext/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/newsincontextsf

Episode References: 

• The Dart Center: https://dartcenter.org/
• Civity: https://civity.org/
• Edwin Rutsch: How Empathy Circles Can Change the World
• Mónica Guzmán: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Divided Political Times

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business.

Modern media and the state of journalism today is well interesting. With fake news, misinformation and clickbait, combined with more news outlets folding or being snapped up by private equity companies. It’s a bit of a minefield, so I reached out to my friend, Dr. Gina Valeria to help us make sense of it all. Gina is an award winning former broadcast and digital journalist, Assistant Professor of Journalism Media Writing radio and podcasting and digital media, and the host and producer of the news in context podcast. She’s the author of the journalism behind journalism, going beyond the basics to train effective journalists in a shifting landscape. And she co authored writing and reporting news for the 21st century. Her research and creative interests revolve around news and digital media literacy, podcasting and digital engagement and communication across socially salient differences. And Gina helped create manage a digital newsroom at the nonpartisan nonprofit governance organization, California Forward. Today, Gina and I talk about the state of the journalism industry. We discussed that in addition to knowing how to write research and interview, today’s journalists need intangible skills such as empathy, curiosity, community engagement, and tenacity to ensure all voices are included and authentically conveyed.

Maria Ross  01:43

We discuss how journalists balance empathy and connection with their task at hand. And Gina shares how we as consumers can reduce our draw to misinformation, why media plays to our emotions, and she offers strategies to help us build media literacy. So we consume it in a more thoughtful way to engage and see each other’s humanity rather than disconnect. This was such a thought provoking talk, and I hope you enjoy it.

Maria Ross  02:21

I’m so excited to welcome my friend and journalism experts Gina Valeria to the podcast today. Welcome Gina.

Dr. Gina Baleria  02:28

Oh, I’m so excited.

Maria Ross  02:30

So I do have to tell listeners how we know each other because we’ve known each other for years. And we met when we did an independent theater production together. The women of Manhattan and it was amazing. And we’ve been in touch ever since. And I’ve just watched your career and your your accomplishments just grow and grow and grow over the years. And I love that you are helping to teach the next generation of journalists, I know this is something you feel really passionate about. Let’s talk a little bit about the state of journalism today. And what is our disconnect to what’s happening?

Dr. Gina Baleria  03:11

When you say disconnect, you mean the fact that there’s all this reality going on? And then there’s this ecosystem that doesn’t seem to match? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s such a big issue. I don’t think there’s one thing but I, I, you know, if you’re talking about journalism, the industry and the information, first of all, social media, everybody has access, and everybody can say anything they want. And if you make it look a certain way, if you say the right things, use the right buzzwords, people will start to trust you and follow you and you can be led into rabbit holes and, and social media is you have your own reality there. And in a way that can be great because voices that weren’t able to break into traditional legacy forms of media can now make their voices heard. So that’s really amazing. But there’s always a flip side. And the flip side is people can again, create their own ecosystems. And we then start to live in different realities with different information, and very disconnected from each other inside social media bubbles and filter bubbles. So social media, and the way it sort of structured and, you know, the algorithms push us, the algorithms on a lot of social media platforms are designed to push us into these filter bubbles, and not to connect us across differences. And then with regard to the journalism industry itself, there has been, you know, a real contraction over the past several years. And that has been accelerated by hedge funds buying up local news outlets, not because they care about journalism, but because those local news outlets own real estate, and you can sell that for a profit and then sort of siphon the money out of the community rather than reinvesting in journalism. So these newspapers have just been doing more and more with fewer and fewer resources. And they’ve had you know, fewer reporters and other staff to come hover, there are local communities that the pages are then filled with syndicated content and advertising content. And as people are less aware of what’s going on in their local community, and only seeing national news, there are studies that show that lack that leads to more polarization that leads to less civic engagement that leads to a whole host of issues. So we’re in this place now where we’re really kind of fractured, and we can see it in, in our news, and it’s, um, I’m not quite sure how to solve it. But I am trying to be part of that conversation.

Maria Ross  05:32

You are trying your small but mighty attempts to to change that. Do you think the quality of reporters and journalists have changed?

Dr. Gina Baleria  05:41

You know, honestly, I don’t. I’m not sure I can answer that. I’m not sure. I’m the one to really answer that. But here’s what I’ll say. I think it’s always been true that you’ve had a spectrum of people doing amazing journalism doing mediocre journalism did bad journalism. But not everyone had the largest megaphone. You know, even back when Edward R. Murrow was doing his amazing journalism, you know, he was a standout right. Even back when the muckrakers the investigative journalists of the late 19th and early 20th century, were coming on the scene and creating policy change, you know, like instigating policy change. You also had yellow journalism in the late 19th century, which was tablet journalism. So I don’t necessarily think the quality has changed. In fact, I think that people who do journalism are very dedicated to it. But I think it just becomes difficult to do everything you want to do with your resources. And then of course, you have people who are in journalism, or who say they’re doing journalism and are right

Maria Ross  06:35

doing I was gonna say the people that say they’re journalists, but they’re actually not they’re opining, they’re not sort of following I don’t want to say the rules of journalism, but it is a it is a practice, it is a profession. And it, it just feels like and I don’t know, maybe this is my Gen X showing that this this integrity, that I felt like was more present in journalism in terms of, you know, verifying your sources and, you know, not revealing everything until you had all the facts. And just, I don’t know, I fit just feels like those of us that are not in journalism, it feels like that slipped a little bit. And I would love some reassurance, although I don’t know that you’re the one that can give me the reassurance. That’s not the case. I think we see these, these highlights of people that are still trying to you know, they’re still the people we can trust. They’re still going to be unbiased. I mean, Judy Woodruff comes to mind for me, in terms of listening to NPR and, and PBS. But, you know, as you said, a lot of these news outlets are beholden to different people than they were before.

Dr. Gina Baleria  07:46

Right? And I think yeah, and I do think those standouts are there for me, it’s Rachel Martin on NPR. Oh, yes. She’s my favorite interviewer. I think she’s amazing. There are and there are a lot of standout journalists. And I’m so I’m not sure if the quality has slipped, per se. I mean, you can argue that, I think it just there are more voices, there are fewer resources, good journalists can’t do everything they want to do, they got to move on. And then maybe there’s even an aspect of training or an aspect of maybe not really knowing you want to be a journalist, you get out there in the world, and you don’t really have the tools to do journalism. Well, and I always say, you know, it is a practice, you’re doing journalism. So you know, for me, that means applying a process of verification, a plot, a process of transparency, a process of, of skepticism, etc, to to your news gathering and a process of trying to get aside your bias or your own your own biases, to make sure that you are really seeing what’s out there and not missing it, because you have blind spots. And we all have blind spots. Let’s be clear, that’s not a it’s not a negative word. I know that it bias has been sort of CO opted as a negative thing. But it’s an evolutionary trait.

Maria Ross  08:53

It’s human. And also, you’re always going to have your own human perspective, when you investigate a story. When you report a story, the people you choose to interview. And so that is that is the one the one positive one of the positives around the proliferation of media is like you said at the beginning, there’s voices we haven’t heard before. And perspectives we haven’t heard before, that now have a platform where we can hear stories that we never would have heard with traditional, you know, white male journalists that used to dominate the field. So I’m very heartened by that. Now, your book, the journalism behind journalism, going beyond the basics to train effective journalists in a shifting landscape. Thank you for writing that book. You also co authored a book called writing and reporting news for the 21st century. And so I want to talk a little bit about modern journalism and the modern, not so much the media landscape but modern journalism and the skills that are required by modern journalists to To continue to report stories that matter stories that are unbiased stories that inform and enlighten and engage us, you talked in, in your book about the fact of relating some intangibles to the practice of journalism, like Curiosity, empathy, implicit bias in order to get solid journalism. So can you talk to us a little bit about that, and especially the idea of centering communities impacted by a story, absolutely journalism, to ensure that we’re getting fair and accurate reporting?

Dr. Gina Baleria  10:34

Absolutely. So the basics of journalism, you know, how to write well how to interview, how to do, how to do research, how to use all of those, those are being taught across journalism, schools, and those are important, those remain important, this remain foundational. But the reason I wrote the book was because I started thinking about all of these things, there are these other skills, that I sort of noticed that my students weren’t they weren’t being cultivated in my students, other skills were being cultivated. And that, you know, I think different generations, different skills are cultivated in older generations, like, oh, they don’t know, but I don’t think that’s it at all, I think, you know, they have a different set of skills that are going to be very quite valuable. But I, I started seeing a need to maybe be intentional about teaching some of these skills like curiosity, and empathy and tenacity, and recognizing your own unconscious biases, and intentionally thinking about communities outside your own and who’s impacted by the who should be centered in this story. So, um, so yeah, you know, I wrote this book. And the reason these things are important to me is, you know, to be a good journalist, you have to have empathy for the person in front of you. And it doesn’t mean, you have to agree with them. But you have to see their humanity, you have to see them as human, or you’re not gonna be able to do the story. If you walk in with it with a stereotype or a preconceived idea or an assumption, you’re missing the story, or you’re flat out gonna miss the story. I always tell my students when I’m teaching them to write, you can’t. You can’t say if someone is arrested for committing a murder, you can’t say they committed the murder, you weren’t there. You can say they were arrested. Because you know that you can say they are accused, you can say they’re on trial, you can say they’re convicted. But how many times do we then have to say they were exonerated? You know, that happens more often than not than we think. So so you can’t you can’t be the judge, jury and executioner, you have to just report what you know. And you have to, you know, look at the story and, and see you the other side to it. So a couple examples you mentioned earlier, getting outside the traditional white male voice that that is seen as neutral, which is not neutral at all. It’s its own bias perspective. And there are some journalists who’ve done some great things I want to specifically call out, there’s a book out and a movie, she said, and that’s Megan Kanter, Jodi Kantor and Megan Toohey, who are who wrote about the Harvey Weinstein, sexual assaults. And they were able and of course, there was also Ronan Farrow, who was doing his own journalism and the three of them were able to bring the story to light. And it really had a profound impact on on women being able to share their voices or call out their accusers or feel empowered and, and it it ended up putting this, you know, convicted perpetrator now Harvey Weinstein behind bars, and it was massive. And it was because, you know, I would argue, to women, were able to have the bring that perspective to the table of understanding what women go through and how serious it actually is. And to pursue that story and have a passion for pursuing that story. There were two other journalists at the Cleveland Plain Dealer several years ago, who wrote about they were they found out that Cleveland had a bunch of untested rape kits. And they were like, how many untested rape kits, and it was a lot of 1000s. And then across across Ohio was 10. Like, it was so much. And so they wrote about it, but why, why why are these untested? And and they started doing a series and because of their series, the police department started testing the rape kits, and they discovered serial rapists that if they had just tested the rape kits, they would have caught them way before they convicted, further assaults. And they talk about the that fact of you know, not you know, it wasn’t a bias. It was a perspective, I am a woman, this is important, this matters. And we’re going to cover this story. And I’m not saying a male wouldn’t cover that story. I’m saying I’m not sure that there would have been the devotion to another stories might come up or, or the awareness that that story needed to be covered. So you know, so bringing your perspective to the table can give us a lot of and that same with Trayvon Martin, the Trayvon Martin killing. In Florida several years ago, there was a black journalist who just the story was kind of a blip, and that he thought his name escapes me right now, but he thought Hmm, that’s you was odd that somebody doesn’t seem right about that. So he started doing his own digging, and because of that journalist, who, again, again, brought his experiences to the table, we got good journalism. And we were able to really get into a story we needed to get into that was, well,

Maria Ross  15:16

we were able to find out the truth, if you want to find out the one committed to pursuing the story to the end. Exactly. And so my question, and I know a lot of people have this question. Yeah, I remember, especially when people were reporting at the beginning of the the war in Ukraine, the invasion? Yeah. And they were covering, you know, they were filming these children trying to cross the border into Poland. And people were wondering, well, why doesn’t the person filming or the person reporting? Get involved? And so can you talk to us a little bit, you know, as lay people who are not in journalism, what’s what’s the, what’s the rule? What’s the principle around how involved a reporter can get in a story before then they are, they are part of the story, which is what you don’t want.

Dr. Gina Baleria  16:03

Right? Um, I think if you see someone, I think it’s up to the individual journalist, I mean, you’re there to do a job because your job is bringing this issue to light for the massive audience. Right. And without you there, this story doesn’t get out into the world. So if I put my camera down, to go help the night? Sure, maybe I helped that one person, but maybe a bunch of other people, then suffer. I’m not saying I wouldn’t help I have no idea what I would do. I am because there are there are plenty of examples of journalists who are engaged in the practice of journalism who see something and then just can’t and stop and go home. Right,

Maria Ross  16:44

right. Empathy is too is too much, you know? And so I’m just wondering what role that that personal empathy plays for Reporter Is it a is it for for reporters who are very empathetic by nature? Is it really hard for them?

Dr. Gina Baleria  17:01

I think most reporters alive I don’t know if I speak it. But I think empathy is a trait, I would say. There are a lot of reporters and myself included, after 911, who went through PTSD, who, you know, but we don’t get the we’re first responders in a lot of ways. And we, you know, fire police paramedics they have, they have structures and systems in place to deal with trauma. And journalists just don’t there’s a center called the Dart center, that actually focuses on trauma in journalism, and helping journalists manage that. But you hear about journalists getting burnout. And sometimes it’s that trauma, it’s that PTSD. But if you tell a story well and do good and get the truth out and make a difference that can mitigate the impact somewhat. But it’s someone who sits there and holds the camera and films it and doesn’t go help. That person’s not unsympathetic that person is just as affected is probably going to experience PTSD.

Maria Ross  18:04

But they’re,

Dr. Gina Baleria  18:05

you know, they made a decision. And in that moment, which you have to make these split second decisions all the time, what’s going to do the greatest good, it’s always weighing right? It’s right, it’s weighing it. If I do this, that’s going to be good. But if I do this, that’s going to be do more good. Right? Yeah.

Maria Ross  18:22

Right. You’re making those hard choices. Yeah. And so when you you know, in your book, and when you teach your students, what do you teach them around developing empathy, because I know you believe that empathy is an important skill to to be a solid journalist. So how do you talk to them around balancing that? Oh,

Dr. Gina Baleria  18:38

yeah, I mean, I talked to them about self care, I have a chapter in my book on self care. And I talked to them about putting structures and systems in place to manage, because trauma will happen, you will cover hard things, you will cover things that you’re never going to unsee and, and you know, for me, it was worth it. It’s to the mission of getting the truth out informing the public so that they had the information to be able to make decisions, it was worth it. Totally worth it. But you have to manage that. And you talk about personal empathy. And so the way I would define empathy is that it’s, it’s just seeing the humanity in another again, it doesn’t mean you’re agreeing, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t mean you’re because because there’s that sort of, over empathizing, and, and getting too personally involved.

Maria Ross  19:25

You can’t you have to have boundaries. If you if you are going to be effectively empathetic with someone, you still have to protect yourself and you can, you can understand someone you can connect with them on an emotional level. But I often talk about the myths of empathy, which is that it doesn’t it’s not being nice, it’s not agreeing with somebody. And it’s not just doing what somebody else wants you to do. That’s not empathy either, but it’s being able to see a situation through someone else’s eyes. And and if you can act with compassion, and turn that into action. And for it sounds to me like what you’re saying is for journalists The the act of compassion can often be making sure that story gets out there, right? Not just necessarily helping that one individual, but for the greater good. My act of compassion is to make sure the story gets reported fairly and it’s amplified.

Dr. Gina Baleria  20:16

Exactly, exactly. And also that that I am not over Yeah, that I am not getting so involved that I lose my perspective, you know that I get lost in the story. There was a situation when I used to work at a station, and I’ll keep it vague, because I am not sure how much I can give up. But I was working at a station and there was a missing child. And I think this is a misnomer. The public thinks, oh, the media are vultures. And I want to share this story. Because the reporter on that story was, he was covering the story and got connected with the family. And I will say that the reporter was of Latin, Latino descent, and the family was also and that may or may not have played a role in their connection, but they made a connection. And so the reporter was so caring about the story, the reporter, you know, ask permission, and they, they, they started to trust him, and they invited him into the home. And then when they learned that the child was dead, and that the perpetrator was a member of the family, they still let him in. Because they trusted him. And and he would call me we all would, but he would call every morning, did they find out I’m coming into work? Did they find her yet? There? You know, there’s so much empathy for this story in this family. And yet, we were still doing the story. Well, we were giving the public information, keeping them apprised. But the family really trusted this reporter. And, and so you know, expressing care centering the family and family’s needs, helping the family understand privacy versus the public interest. You know, it’s like, that’s another balance you have to make. It’s not always cut and dry. Yeah, there are privacy issues here. But is it more important for the public to know? Or is it more important to keep the privacy intact? And those are decisions you have to make but but he was able to, you know, not get permission from the family. That’s not the point. But he was able to connect, engender trust? Yeah. And build trust. So So that’s an important thing to think about is making connections with your sources not to get lost, but to tell the story with care and center. The people involved in the story.

Maria Ross  22:31

Is that hard for for young, wannabe journalists, do you think or? Well, that’s a race that

Dr. Gina Baleria  22:37

i That’s why I wrote the book, because I think it’s not hard for everybody. But I think sometimes it just doesn’t occur to people. I think in this day and age where we’re constantly on social media, where we’re always looking at our phones or doing things inside our phones, engaging with others through our phones, that when you’re actually in a real life situation. I noticed that with my students, when they’re actually in a real life situation, I have to kind of walk them step by step through and they’re Oh, okay. Yeah. But things that I would have taken for granted. Yeah. And so I think so. So this idea of I don’t think it’s hard, I just think it hasn’t been cultivated.

Maria Ross  23:07

Right. Yeah. I love that. So, you know, we can’t have a conversation about media without talking about media literacy, and how to withdraw how to reduce our draw to misinformation, right? What, you know, what can we do about it? We feel we feel so deeply and so much news is about activating our emotional triggers, these days, whether it’s clickbait, whether it’s like a shocking headline, whether it’s, you know, my favorite is the ones where it were, where news programs will average, like this thing and your house could be killing you will talk about it in three hours, right? Like, no, I need to know that now. Right. But where, where can we, as the consumers of media get better about reducing our draw to that misinformation? And I know, it’s fighting against our human, our human trait of curiosity, and being you know, being drawn to the, to the accident being drawn to the drama, right. So how can we be how can we make ourselves a little bit more media literate in order to understand what we’re seeing?

Dr. Gina Baleria  24:19

Yeah, and that’s a that’s a challenge. And I, you know, I talk with my students, I said, you can put the information out there, you cannot control how people receive it. Exactly. So as a journalist, you can be transparent, you can make sure you can defend your work, you know, someone comes at you make sure you feel really foundationally solid in what you’re doing. And you can, you know, treat people with respect as they engage with you unless they’re trolls and then past that, but aside, yeah, the problem is, not only does it do our brains feast on that stuff, the people who create that content know that and have of course, they’re playing right into it, playing right into it. Exactly. And so you’ve got this really, really sophisticate aidid ecosystem of algorithms and content that, that we have very little defense again, so it’d be nice to see some regulation sort of control some of that, but that would never do the full trick. So what can we do? As consumers? I would say, we should you engage with people who are different than us walk on the street, say hi, look up, you know, even those tiny little interactions can honestly have this profound impact. I work with an organization called City. And we, we just put a digital interaction to a Stanford study of 31,000 people who tested interventions. And we were number one or number two, and increasing social trust and reducing partisan animosity were in the top few. And and it was all about engagement was all about seeing the humanity in another. And so I know that seems that’s not necessarily a here’s what you do online, look for this look for that. But I think that is foundational,

Maria Ross  26:01

but it plays into that. Yeah. And I just want to 70 Civ it, why we’ll put all the links of these great things you’re mentioning in the show notes, but I just want to call that out.

Dr. Gina Baleria  26:10

Yeah, to somebody.org 7070 di t y.org. Right. Yeah. So yeah, I

Maria Ross  26:15

mean, it’s really about, you know, I had him on my show. And I’ve mentioned him on several episodes, there’s a gentleman named Edwin Racz, out of Berkeley, who you may be familiar with, he runs the Center for building a culture of empathy. And he has run empathy circles at the most divisive political rallies that we’ve had in the last few years. And I think the biggest thing is the goal is not to we’ve we’ve fallen into this trap, as, as we consume media, as we react to media and comment online or call into, to, you know, podcasts or radio shows where our mission is to convert. We feel like the debate has to lead to a conversion, right or persuasion. We’ve lost the ability to have the debate and understand different points of view and leave that conversation potentially, in the same camp as we were when we entered it. But understanding the context of the other person. Yeah. And I don’t know when, when that happened. All of a sudden, it was about you know, like, my comment on your article online, has to be abrasive and direct. And I because I’m trying to convince you that you’re wrong.

Dr. Gina Baleria  27:29

Yeah. Yeah, it’s all about that, rather than really trying to understand your point not agree with but understand. And I mean, I think social media is part of that. And a lot of that content is bought content, but it models for humans, how they think they should act. And so we get that really abrasive, you know, problematic content. And yeah, I think I’m thankful to have grown up in a household of loving parents who are diametrically opposed to me on a lot of issues. And so you have to you have to navigate that right? There. My right. So, you know, I’m really grateful. And I say this, I think, in my in my acknowledge, and my little dedication section in the book, but I’m really grateful for that, because they really helped me learn that I needed to understand other people’s perspectives help me defend my own, and how much common ground we actually do have, once you get past the knee jerk, you know, issues like abortion, gun control, my God, when you actually start talking, you agree on 90% of it, we do we just do. And then the stuff we disagree with, we can we can navigate that little bit, once we understand we have a lot of commonalities.

Maria Ross  28:39

i You’re making me think of a guest that I had on a while ago, Monica Guzman, who wrote a book called I never thought of it that way. And she talks she actually talks a lot about her family, and the fact that she is diametrically opposed politically with her or her own parents. Yes. And just talking about how we can have more civil conversations. And for me, this is linked with media, because I think, for better or worse media, whether it’s true journalism, or the clickbait, or the you know, I don’t even know what you call the opposite of good journalism, like the hacks out there,

Dr. Gina Baleria  29:14

that journalism talk show tabloid? Exactly all of that is information

Maria Ross  29:18

influencing how we have conversations, it’s influencing how we’re interacting with each other, and we want to think it doesn’t, but it does. Oh, it

Dr. Gina Baleria  29:26

totally does. And, and so it does come the it’s the awareness. It’s walking into a social media space or digital media space, saying I am aware that a lot of this content may be trying to influence me in some way. And I need to have strategies for dealing with it. So for example, I will when I go on to, and I don’t go much anymore, because it’s turned into a space that prioritizes trying to push content on me rather than letting me see the content I want. But when I go on to Facebook, there’s a lot of suggested content and the minute I see something that says suggested content, I’m off the feed because I’m like, I, there’s no need for me to be here, because then it just gets more and more that it just gets more and more frequent as I move through the feed. So the first one, I see, I stop scrolling. And that’s a strategy I have that I have in place. So you have to develop strategies for yourself. And you have to, you know, you get we all get into that, or a lot of people get into that mindless scrolling. Yeah, and that’s your doom scrolling. And that’s gonna take you down a rabbit hole, or even you start with this is a cute dog and look at this bunny and an hour, two hours later, you’re at the, you know, let’s blow up the world. Well, yeah, but you have to, you have to retain some sort of awareness or set a time limit for yourself and alarm, I mean, have external cues for yourself, do whatever you need to do to, to, you know, we all I don’t have the self discipline to realize an hour has passed, right? But if I have an alarm, or if I have limits on myself, that I can apply them, right, that helps me. So you know, you’re not going to fix, we’re not going to fix the algorithms. We’re not going to fix the digital media media ecosystem, we can lobby, we can make our voices heard. And we can set our own structures to manage the content. And then it’s and then the last thing is, understanding who the reputable sources are

Maria Ross  31:16

developer, I was gonna say, checking our own sources I’ve I’ve taken to doing that to where it’s like, okay, this article, this journalist, quote, unquote, whether a real journalist or not, is saying something. I’m going to actually go check that out elsewhere, and see if that’s actually legit.

Dr. Gina Baleria  31:32

Yeah, I had an old boss, who said, who used to say, don’t just do something sit there. And he said it to me because I constantly am in motion. But I loved it. Because it really applies like instant like you see something, it shocks you. Of course, it’s meant to shock you. It’s meant to draw out a motion, stop, take a breath, don’t share it. Just give yourself a second, go walk away. See if you can find it anywhere else on the internet. Is anyone else covering the stories? And he was saying this is a confirmed elsewhere? Yeah. actly. And only after you’ve done a little bit. And I know that that’s a lot of work, but then it’s felt we’re sharing if you’re not willing to sort of do the work that it’s not worth sharing?

Maria Ross  32:09

100% Yeah. 100% I love it. Well, and also, you know, thank you for your podcast news and context, which I always find very, very eye opening around exactly that putting the news and the headlines that we’re seeing in context of what’s going on in culture, what’s going on in society, what’s going on in the geopolitical space, and really helping us understand how to be more discerning as we consume different media and different media sources. So I’m gonna put a link to news and context in the show notes as well. Thank you. Gina, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for your insights and for your work with, you know, working with the next generation of journalists and hopefully, and keeping the integrity and the and the heart into that field. Thank you for

Dr. Gina Baleria  32:54

that. Maria. It’s been a real pleasure. I mean, you know, I adore you and I’m just so excited to be able to talk with you about this

Maria Ross  32:59

topic. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like it, share it with a colleague or a friend. Don’t forget to rate and review and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind

For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

If you’re not in tech, you may not be familiar with Customer Success (CS) within your organization and how essential it is to the company’s long-term success. Even if you do know what it is, perhaps your company isn’t fully leveraging what it can do to catapult growth and revenue. Turns out, empathy is a key skill for CS managers, in addition to other traits my guest today will share. Emilia D’Anzica is the founder of Growth Molecules, an emerging management consulting firm that helps companies simplify customer success and become more profitable. 

Emilia speaks about her passion for SaaS products, women in tech, and customer success. Today we discuss how customer success is different from customer service, where the field is going, the traits that make a CS manager successful, and how to avoid common mistakes when building out your CS function that could do more harm than good. We also chat about working moms in the tech industry and her recent book, Pressing ON as a Tech Mom: How Tech Industry Mothers Set Goals, Define Boundaries & Raise the Bar for Success.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• Customer support is reactive. Customer success is proactive to retain customers and help them to thrive and stick around due to the great care they are receiving. 
• Language shifts are really important when you’re starting a customer success organization, ensuring that you’re really thinking about how you speak about the people that you’re going to bring in and the people you’re serving.
• You have to put yourself in your customer’s shoes. Not everyone’s like you and they’re looking at the challenge in a different way. 

“You need to be able to influence the rest of the organization so that they’re able to see the customer journey as critical to the company’s success.” —  Emilia D’Ánzica

About Emilia D’Anzica, Founder Growth Molecules:

Starting her career in Silicon Valley, Emilia D’Anzica has developed a passion for SaaS products, women in tech, and customer success. She has cultivated rich experience and knowledge after leading teams at global companies including Jobvite, WalkMe, and BrightEdge. 

Emilia has also obtained an MBA from Saint Mary’s College of California with a focus on Global Competition and Strategy. She then founded Growth Molecules, an emerging management consulting firm, helping companies simplify customer success and become more profitable. She is globally recognized as a top 25 leader in Customer Success, having received numerous accolades for her work, and is well-known as a customer success speaker. Emilia has also been featured in countless media including Forbes.com, been a speaker at SaaStr Annual Conference, Unleash 19, RD summit, among more.  

Originally from Naples, Italy, Emilia is an immigrant and one of six children who grew up in Kelowna, British Columbia. She has lived and worked in Copenhagen, Denmark, and Rome, Italy early in her career. When she isn’t working or traveling the world, Emilia spends time with her partner, three children, and multiple animals exploring Sonoma County, where she now resides. Pressing ON as a Tech Mom: How Tech Industry Mothers Set Goals, Define Boundaries & Raise the Bar for Success is Emilia’s first book.

Connect with Emilia D’Anzica:

Her company: Growth Molecules: https://growthmolecules.com/ 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/emiliadanzica 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emiliadanzica/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growthmolecules 

Book: Pressing ON as a Tech Mom: How Tech Industry Mothers Set Goals, Define Boundaries & Raise the Bar for Success

Customer Success Academy for Customer Success Managers and Leaders – 16 courses and workshops.

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business.

If you’re not in tech, you may not be familiar with customer success or see us within your organization, and how essential it is to the company’s long term success. Even if you do know what it is, perhaps your company isn’t fully leveraging what it can do to catapult growth and revenue. Turns out empathy is a key skill for CES managers. In addition to other traits, my guest today will share. Amelia Danika, is founder of growth molecules, an emerging management consulting firm that helps companies simplify customer success and become more profitable. She’s a globally recognized top 25 leader in customer success, and is a well known Customer Success speaker who you may have seen in forbes.com, or speaking at sastras annual conference. She’s cultivated rich experience and knowledge after leading teams at global companies including job bite, walk me and bright edge. Amelia speaks and teaches about her passion for SAS products, women in tech and customer success. Today we discuss how customer success is different from customer service, where the field is going. The traits that make a CS manager successful, and how to avoid common mistakes when building out your CS function that could do more harm than good. We also chat about working moms in the tech industry. And her recent book pressing on as a tech Mom, how tech industry mothers set goals, define boundaries and raise the bar for success. It’s a great one, stay tuned.

01:48

Welcome, Amelia. Finally, we are talking on the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so excited to have you here.

01:54

Maria, thank you for having me. Well, I

Maria Ross  01:57

want to kick things off here and talk about your work with growth molecules and the work that you do with clients. But let’s take a step back, because I think a lot of people, especially outside of tech don’t know what the customer success function is. So can you talk a little bit about what customer success is how it’s different from customer service? And what role it plays in the organization?

Emilia Danzika  02:22

Yes, well, our company is on a mission to make sure the whole world knows what customer success is because I believe that it is more than just a jargon that technologists use, but rather, it is a function within an organization that helps protect proactively and grow revenue. All too often customer success is clumped into service, or reactive support mode. And while support is incredibly important to organizations, that is more of a reactive role. Whereas customer success is very much about how do I ensure my client, once they decide to partner with my organization is going to reap the benefits or the return on the investment quickly so that they continuously become our customer. And the best example I can give you is Amazon, they are a customer success company and that the first $25 You spend with them to get that free shipping is not what Apple cares about. But what they care about is that experience being so amazing that you end up spending 1000s and 1000s of dollars with them and becoming a loyal customer. And that’s really the power of customer success, ensuring adoption and realizing value quickly so that they become a lifelong customer.

03:49

I love that. And my experience with customer success organizations and professionals has always been around someone who really helps you make the most of your investment, so that you are like literally so you are successful with their product or with their service. And whether that’s helping you increase adoption, or, you know, customize things or figure out what additional tools or services you might need. I always felt like customer success was like the salesperson without the pushiness. They were the person you could go to when you needed a partner and when you need help and when you really want to make the most of your investment.

04:30

I would agree with that. I do see a lot of trends moving Customer Success professionals into more of a sales role. And what I mean by that is there is a shift in how customer success managers are being paid. Traditionally, there was no commission or 20% was a traditional percentage of commission. But now I see more and more that 30 or 40% commission split so that customer success professionals aren’t Send devised to identify opportunities to grow that customer, and not just check the box. So customer success is sales in that you’re ensuring they continue to

05:12

buy. Exactly. That’s what I feel like. It’s like making sure you’ve got, you’ve got everything you need as you use that product or service so that you continue to either renew your subscription, or buy more products, or just, you know, become further loyal to the organization. And would you say this is a relatively new field? Is this something in the last few decades? Like, where did it come from? Because we’re used to the paradigm of just there being a customer service organization and accompany Where did customer success come from?

05:44

From my research, it dates back to the late 90s, a woman heading up what was to become customer success at vanta, which was later acquired by Oracle started this organization because it was a subscription revenue model. So Software as a Service, someone committing to paying monthly or yearly for a product, versus purchasing something on premise that you own for a lifetime, and getting continuous updates through that product. And so she created this, this organization called Customer Success, and when Oracle went on to acquire them, while PeopleSoft then Oracle, they they really, really took on that phrase, and Marc Benioff comes from he’s the CEO of Salesforce comes from the Oracle world. And so when he started his own company, he really put what I believe, as customer success on the map, and really define the role explaining what it is and the power that customer success managers can have, because they’re building the lifelong relationships with the customers. So if you if you go back to the original question, even sales, that initial sales that’s completed is very different than that renewal sales. Because the relationship is deepened, the trust is deepened, there’s a shift in how the buyer is viewing the renewal versus the initial sale.

07:16

Right. And it’s funny that you say Salesforce, because that was actually my first exposure to a customer success partner was as a Salesforce customer. But do you see this proliferating and other industries outside of tech? Because off the top of my head, I can I can think of at least like five examples of companies that need to rely on a customer through through their lifetime through, you know, renewals through subscriptions through things like this. Is this starting to proliferate in other industries as well?

07:46

Absolutely. I see it predominantly in places like beauty, dentistry, anything like that, where they realize we can we can get customers and predict revenue by getting them to sign up for quarterly or yearly commitments where we just automatically withdraw money from their account, we start sending them text messages, we give them a private concierge, a complimentary experience once a year, that is customer success, where you’re not just picking up the phone when they’re stuck, or they need help, but rather, how do we get you to become a loyal customer, one that will recommend our organization when we’re not in the room.

08:34

I love that so much. So let’s talk a little bit about you now that we kind of know the world you you plan. How did you come to this work? Tell us a little bit about your story, my fellow Italian.

08:48

I always joke that my customer success experience started as soon as my dad could put a rag in my hand and I could go clean the tables at at our pizzeria. One for over 30 years. So I really grew up serving customers. And I love people. And so when I when I landed in San Francisco in the late 90s, I was in customer marketing, I was a PMP certified project manager. And I happened to be at a child’s birthday party where someone overheard that I was looking for a new role, handed my resume to the founder of job bite. And that was really when not only was the economy in 2008 about to go way downhill, but customer success was surging as a profession and the founder yes were called me and said we’re looking for our first CSM want to join us. Let’s do it. And so over the six years span that I was at job but I essentially held every role from CSM to support direct of onboarding professional services, I really learned the profession deeply, before eventually moving on and going into customer success operations.

10:10

Nice. And now growth molecules helps clients all over build that function right and make it successful party. That’s why

10:18

we do everything from assessing people process and systems, to building actionable playbooks, we have a whole whole academy that educates Customer Success teams. So that’s really what we do we help companies protect and grow revenue.

10:35

I love it. I love it. Okay, so let’s talk about this function. And what makes a customer success manager successful, what makes a customer success team successful?

10:49

I believe there are many components. But I’ll start with one that’s really important. And finally being talked about in customer success, and not is the emotional piece. So not only emotional intelligence, what does that even mean? But the empathy factor, Maria, that that you’re so well known for. And what I mean by that is, as human beings, we purchase a product first with the motion, right, we have to build some sort of trust. And then behind that, we rationalize that mortgage payment, or that that first sticker shock bill we get for that quarterly commitment we just made, for example, but we feel better about it if we have an emotional commitment to it. So once that initial sale is completed, that’s really when the true relationship opens in a subscription economy. And you need to find a way to emotionally connect with your clients. I’m not saying every product needs to have a high touch Customer Success model. But there are too many technologies out there that you can have a digital experience with your customers, and still show empathy. Make sure that you’re understanding even with the bots today, they’re able to understand where is their emotion? And based on that emotion, how should we handle this customer? If you sense the frustration is this when you escalate it and ask the client can we call you, for example. So that is number one is really ensuring that customer success professionals understand the emotional intelligence behind the science of customer success. And then to being able to articulate with good communication, the value or impact the product is going to have on their own business, they need to be able to rationalize the emotional piece or the emotional investment they’re making in this relationship. Communication is terribly important, not only in written, but also in verbal. All too often you hear customer success managers that are really nervous, because they might be talking to a purse persona or a profile, they’re not usually exposed to maybe it might be a CEO, or a chief operating officer that creates nervousness in people. So how do you train them to remember, they’re just human beings, and they want help you know more about the product than they do. And that’s why they’re talking to. So the communication piece is the second. And then third demanding authority. If you allow your customers to tell you what they’re going to do with the product, or how they are going to use it, and you know very well that that way is the wrong path to success. You need to have leadership skills to lead your clients. So I would say those are the top three emotion, communication and leadership.

13:52

I love that because it is a role where where you have to be an advocate. And sometimes being an advocate means a customer might not get the answer they want, but they’re going to get the answer they need. And so I really love that you you differentiate those different skills. So obviously, why we’re talking is because of this really important piece of the emotional connection. And I’ve long worked with my brand clients on even when they’re talking about technology, or it’s a b2b sale, you’re still selling to a human being, there’s still a human being on the other end of the line, who is making decisions about their work and maybe with their company’s budget. But those decisions, reflect on them as a human being, it could be a decision that makes their life or job easier. It could be a decision that helps them advance in their career and build a legacy. And so it’s really about finding out what those what those levers are for what’s important to that person, what are their values, what are their aspirations, what are their goals? This is what Steve Jobs, despite his reputation as a manager, was really good at for his users was really under Standing, it’s not about the thing we’re selling, it’s about what the person is trying to do with it and who the person wants to be. So is there is there something is there? Is there a place where Customer Success organizations go wrong? Meaning, you know, the executives thinks it’s a great idea to actually shore up their customer success organization, or maybe they don’t have one, and they’re starting one. And, you know, they’re like, we’re gonna go do this? And what are some of the mistakes they make when they’re when they’re putting a customer success organization and customer success function inside their organization?

15:39

Yeah, so first of all, treating it like a new sale or sales, because again, it’s a very different play. Secondly, they are not thinking about the big picture. What is the customer journey, all too often companies come to us, when there’s a churn problem. They’re spending too much money on serving the customers. So more and more CSMs are being hired. But the churn is potentially increasing, and the number of customers aren’t increasing. So instead of it becoming a fire, starting customer success, proactively, really understanding what does the customer see as value? I cringe when I hear Customer Success leaders talk about their customers as accounts, they’re just accounts? Well, no, they’re not. They’re humans making decisions behind those accounts. And so even language shifts are really important when you’re starting a customer success organization, ensuring that you’re really thoughtful about how you speak about the people that you’re going to bring in and the people you’re serving. What are What do they care about? How are you going to help those needs help your customers become heroes in their own organization? And then secondly, looking at the processes. So do we have playbooks that the CSMs can actually leverage all too often, people who hire me or organization to coach them, they say, You know what, I learned the product, I’m certified in it. But I don’t know how to run an Executive Business Review. Can you teach me? And so those essential skills we don’t call anything we do soft skills, we call them essential, are critical. How do you lead a business meeting? How do you manage time? How do you manage stress? How do you avoid burnout, those kinds of things are really important. So putting those in your processes is really important as part of the education. And then last, but very important for efficiency purposes are, once you have the people in the processes identified, that you’ve tested, your, your 80%, they’re sure now you’re ready to execute, you want to make sure you have technology and systems in place to execute. Otherwise, your CSMs will quickly burnout and waste time make a lot more mistakes, because they’re doing repetitive actions that can actually be automated with technology.

18:12

So if you have folks in your organization that are serving as CSMs, let’s say they’re really good at the, at the function itself, but like you mentioned, maybe emotional intelligence is a little bit weaker, maybe they’re not sure how to tap into their empathy or strengthen their empathy. What do you do for your clients to help them get past that hurdle? Because that’s not just that’s not just one class, or one workshop or one, you know, here, watch this video, and all of a sudden, you will be a much more empathetic, you know, customer success manager. So how do you work with clients on that particular challenge, especially if they’ve got an existing team there that are maybe by virtue of not having that skill, making things worse for their customers?

19:00

I well, I don’t believe it’s something that you can just learn overnight, but it can be learned, and it has to be practiced in a coaching culture. So after we go through our series, we have several series and most of them doing include that emotional intelligence component, we give them skills to continue practicing, we encourage them to get uncomfortable listening to their own calls, giving themselves feedback on what they did well, and what they can improve. And with, in our own organization, we use Slack. So whenever we have a call with a client, and it’s recorded, we’ll put it up on a slack channel. And the requirement is you have to give yourself feedback on what you did well, and where you see opportunities to improve. And then you ask for feedback on the call. And people will say, Amelia, I don’t have time to listen to all these calls. Yes, you do. Do you can ask your team to share snippets. There’s so much technology out there, chorus, zoom in zoom info. Now, Gong, all of these products out there will let you share snippets where you want feedback or you want to just listen to your key words of how did you handle that difficult conversation? Right? I think that’s really important. putting yourself out there and being vulnerable, listening to your own voice. We all dislike our voices, being being our being our not critic, but person who’s willing to be vulnerable and give yourself permission to give feedback, knowing there’s no such thing as perfect. We can all improve the minute I stop improving, and feel like I’ve learned everything, I’m leaving customer success. I’m out of here, yeah, I want to be challenged. So as a leader, making sure that you’re willing to be vulnerable, and showing them that you’re willing to continuously improve as a first step to create that coaching culture of continuous learning.

21:04

I love that because as you know, in my book, one of the one of the traits and habits of empathetic leaders that I listed was, and also empathetic brands is being able to accept feedback as a gift. And so not taking it with defensiveness and your armor on but getting curious about it. Why? Why does that person have that impression of me? What What actions have I done that have caused that if that was not my intent, right, so getting a little bit more, you know, taking a step back, and being able to regulate your emotions enough to say, like, I can learn something from this feedback, this is actually a gift to me. Because if I’ve, if I’m acting this way, or if I’m doing something in a certain way, and nobody tells me that I have an opportunity to improve, that actually only hurts me in the end. So I love that that’s such an important part of the process that you tried to build in both for your own company and for your clients. Of that that has to be part of the process loop.

22:04

Yes. And one extra item to consider is you have to put yourself in your customers shoes, or to in the listener shoes. because not everyone’s like you, right? They may be a different gender, they may have different education, they’re looking at the challenge in a different way. They may come from a different country, the way you’re speaking to them may not resonate. So there’s many things that go into empathy. And that’s why I listed it as the number one trait.

22:37

I love that. I love that. So can you tell us about what have some of your clients been able to do after really getting things right with their customer service organizations and maybe working with you or on their own? What what deltas? Have you seen between where they were and where they get to once they’re able to, to shore up to three success traits that you talked about at the beginning of the podcast?

23:04

Yeah, so one, people get comfortable being uncomfortable and practicing with their colleagues. No longer is this shyness or uncomfortableness in the room. We teach all our classes with our cameras on we don’t use PowerPoints. So it’s very much a learn from each other environment. And so that suddenly becomes comfortable and actually fun. The number one complaint is that the teams say we need more breakout time to practice the skill they want to practice. So that’s a really positive outcome. Secondly, is the NRR. Net retention revenue. We had one client this year tell us their NRR went up to 160%, which is incredible. Their NPS, which we help them set up went to 87 their net promoter score Net Promoter Score, yes, that’s a jargon without explaining. And then one client recently we’ve been educating their customer success teams for two years now we’ve just taken their sixth cohort of hires through the program. And they told us that 80% of the company’s revenue will be managed by CSMs. And for me, incredible, yes. For me, it’s just it’s an incredible feeling to hear that knowing that the CSM feel so empowered to their customers and those renewals through expansion and more. So those are some stats that you can expect when your team is speaking a similar language, they have a methodology and they’re putting the human element behind the customer. First.

24:52

Do you think that leaders of CSM teams need to lead in a different way than other executives,

25:02

they need to lead in a way that they’re able to persuade and influence the rest of the organization. So that they continue to put the customer at the center. All too often product wants the product to be center, the CFO, cutting costs, bringing in more money. And at the heart, really, it’s that customer led growth, and not to be attacking, not to say, but the customer is the most important thing. But rather, where do all the different pieces fit across the customer journey, because without a customer, there isn’t a company. And so that is the number. Those are the two most important things when I’m coaching CEOs or a C, CEO or VP of CS directly. I tell them, you have to be able to persuade your team do things they may not feel comfortable with sometimes. And you need to be able to influence the rest of the organization, so that they’re able to see the customer journey as critical to the company’s success.

26:09

I love this so much. So I’m just going to pivot. I’m going to switch gears here for a second. Because not only you’re you’re doing amazing work with your customer success clients, but you are also a huge advocate for women in tech. And I have a question as a bridge on this. And then I want to talk about your work and your book around empowering women in tech, especially women in tech who have families. Would you say that in customer success, at least right now? Is there a pretty even weight in terms of male identifying female identifying? Is it a field that attracts more female identifying people like what’s the mix right now of the types of people that are drawn to CES?

26:55

While I don’t have statistics that I can share? At this time, I can say that, increasingly, more women are moving into leadership roles in customer success. I spoke on a panel pre COVID. And we did a deep research study on the number of women and men in customer success. And yes, indeed, at the time, circa 2018, there were more women in customer success. But at the leadership level, the men far outweighed the women. So that was your start. Yeah, see that that’s changing. One of the proudest moments I had was when I became a chief customer officer, not for myself or for the title, but to inspire other women that it is possible. And seeing so many women now have that title or moving into CEO, like the Chief Customer Officer of HubSpot, the moment she moved into the CEO role, the hot the HubSpot stock went through the roof, and so amazing being able to see those kinds of stats is truly inspiring. Is it does it lead more women into the profession? I can’t see with the statistic. But what I can say is two of our most recent clients are education companies. And they’ve come to us and said we’ve hired all these teachers. They’ve never been a CSM, they’ve left the teaching profession, which is sad, we need teachers in America, but they don’t know how to be a CSM. They know our education products well help us. And through that recent work, we have noticed that there are more women entering at least at the entry level. And I’m hoping that these women will become leaders.

28:46

I love that so much. That’s so good to hear. And you know, I think because it’s like you said it is a position that well, for many companies, it’s been sort of added on. It really is core to the success of the company, if you’re really going to be a customer centric organization, you need to have some sort of a function that’s around, not just like you said, reactive service, but proactive partnership with a customer to ensure that that you’re you’re holding their hand through the entire journey that hopefully will last a long time with your company. So I’m very heartened to see that there’s women entering that because it does seem so essential to the success of an organization, especially a tech company, but like we said, spreading out into other industries as well.

29:35

Agreed 100%.

29:36

So let’s talk a little bit as we wrap up, I want to talk a little bit about your book that came out last last year, pressing on as a tech mom how tech industry mothers set goals, define boundaries and raise the bar for success. Now that’s a book you authored solo or partnered with someone.

29:56

I partnered with pons, she’s the operating partner Growth molecules. And I actually had gone into her organization and did some teaching of her customer success team and then did a coaching three months session with them. And through that experience, she just had a baby and had some challenges which she talks about in the book. But then after the coaching was completed with her organization, she asked me if I would continue to mentor her, and through that loss of this friendship, and fast forward to COVID times, are you ready to write a book together about our experience as mothers and I said, Absolutely. So we surveyed over 300 women globally. And then we did a lot of research, we share our own stories, and we did primary research with 12 Women who we feature in the book, they all come from different stages of life. And our goal in the book is to educate people who are not parents, a lot of CEOs predominantly are male, and we want to educate the technology world to show them that there is a place for women who have children, we may work a little bit differently, but we are productive. And we bring a voice to the table that is often reflective of the buyer. And so we believe that many different voices need to be at the table, and especially during COVID. So many women left technology. And so we’re on a mission to change that, bring them back and encourage women like my daughters to go into a tech field as they consider options going into university.

31:46

Well, of course, I fully support that work. And what I love also about the book is, you know, there’s that theme again, for you have empathy, because it really is about presenting the stories of these women and the hoops they jump through the challenges they face, but the incredible value they bring to organizations to help those who might not understand have empathy for the women in their organizations, and to hopefully be moved to mentor to be an ally, to you know, speak up for those women when those women are not in the room to make sure that they have a place at the leadership table. Because ultimately, it all comes back to organizational performance, as if we need a better reason than just equity. Right. But it does come down to the organization performs better, when there is that, that diversity of thought that diversity of perspective and experience in the leadership ranks. And so really, really encouraging moms to stay in the workforce when they have so much to give. And I love what you said about it, we may have to work a little bit differently. But it’s an adaptation that’s worth it for the performance of the organization in the end.

33:00

That’s right. And I do see technology companies moving in the right way. When I had my first child, there was no maternity leave, I use my vacation days. Same with my second one I I was living in Oklahoma and there was absolutely no maternity leave, I use five and a half weeks of vacation. And that was that back to work on I gosh, it was challenging. And I am a huge advocate of being inclusive of parents, regardless of gender, making a place for them to continue working.

33:34

I love that. So the name of the book, again is pressing on as a tech Mom, we will have the link in the show notes. Amelia, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you for your insights and for educating us a little bit more about the customer success function and its essential illness to the organization’s performance. All your connection links will be in the show notes. But where can folks find out more about you and your work?

33:57

You bet it’s that growth molecules.com

34:01

Perfect. And thanks again for your time today. Thanks for having me, Maria. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always, if you enjoyed it, please tell a friend tell a colleague tell a client and don’t forget to rate and review if you have an opportunity. Until next time, please remember that cashflow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Does your organization actually bet on its people? Like, truly invest in and grow your people – even if you know they may not stay more than a few years? Well, today, you’ll learn that doing so is a smart business strategy and one that has helped TBWA Worldwide dominate the advertising industry across the globe.

Today, we talk with the delightful Rhonda George-Denniston, Chief Learning Officer at TBWA Worldwide. We discuss why her company has elevated learning to the C-suite, what today’s leaders need to succeed, how to lead multi-generational workforces and help each other collaborate well together, and why so-called soft skills of communication, empathy, and authenticity can make or break your company’s success. We also discuss how industry leaders like TBWA devote resources and time to build those skills for ALL their people at every level – not just a select group.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• As a leader, you need to have relationships with your people and be willing to ask for honest feedback. You need to know how you are perceived and received by your team.
• Even the most experienced leaders can benefit from understanding or getting a little bit more insight into their leadership style and where they may have blind spots. Self-awareness is the most important trait good leaders can possess.
• The differences are your team’s strengths. We all have something that we can learn from one another and how we each see the world and the work.

“Everyone wants to be treated with dignity. Everyone wants to know that they’re doing meaningful work. Everyone wants to know that they’re compensated for what they’re worth and that they’re bringing value to the organization.” —  Rhonda George-Denniston

About Rhonda George-Denniston, Chief Learning Development Officer, TBWA Worldwide:

Having spent her initial career in the dot.com boom, Rhonda brings an entrepreneurial spirit to her role. In 2001 she joined TBWA and landed on her mission—helping others to be their best selves. Rhonda is responsible for TBWA’s talent development strategy, ensuring key talent is retained, engaged, and thriving throughout their careers. Focusing on a systematic and interactive learning approach she advocates individual growth plans while bolstering TBWA’s top talent. She’s a nurturer; an avid gardener and rescuer of discarded furniture — giving them a whole new life and purpose.

References Mentioned:

The Empathy Edge podcast: Brandon Miller: Do You and Your Team Really Know Your Strengths?

Connect with Rhonda George-Denniston:

TBWA Worldwide Website: https://tbwa.com/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/RhondaG30391043

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rhonda-george-denniston/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rhonda.george.796

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rhondageorge/

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business.

Does your organization actually bet on its people, like truly invest in and grow your people, even if you know they may not stay more than a few years? Well, today you’ll learn that doing so is a smart business strategy, and one that has helped TBWA worldwide dominate the advertising industry across the globe. Today we talk with the delightful Rhonda George Dennison, Chief Learning Officer at TBWA. worldwide. We discuss why her company has elevated learning to the C suite. What today’s leaders need to succeed her answer may surprise you how to lead multi generational workforces and help each other collaborate well together, and why so called soft skills of communication, empathy and authenticity can make or break your company’s success and how industry leaders like TBWA devote resources and time to build those skills for all their people at every level, not just a select group. A little bit about Rhonda before she shares her own story, she and I had the pleasure of working together several times over the last few years for me to deliver empathy workshops to her different training cohorts, and I can’t wait to do more. Having spent her initial career in the.com Boom, Rhonda brings an entrepreneurial spirit to her role. In 2001. She joined TBWA and landed on her mission, helping others to be their best selves. Rhonda is responsible for TBWA talent development strategy, ensuring key talent is retained engaged and thriving throughout their careers. Focusing on a systemic and interactive learning approach, she advocates individual growth plans while bolstering TBWA top talent. She’s a nurturer and avid gardener and rescuer of discarded furniture, giving them a whole new life and purpose. And speaking of purpose, you will love what she has to say about helping your employees find theirs. Take a listen.

02:18

Welcome Rhonda to the empathy edge, we have finally made this interview happen. And I could not be more delighted to have you as a guest to share your work and your story with our audience. Welcome.

Rhonda George-Denniston  02:30

Thank you for having me here. Maria. Yes, it’s good to be here. I’m excited that we made this happen.

Maria Ross  02:35

I know. And you know, as of this recording, you have recently been promoted to Chief Learning Officer at TBWA. Worldwide, which as I was telling you just thrills me that they’ve made learning and development a sea level position. So tell us a little bit about your story first, before we get into the good stuff of the the meat of the interview. How did you come to this work of learning and development?

Rhonda George-Denniston  02:59

Oh, my gosh, Maria, how much time do you have? We got a little bit. I have humble beginnings at TBWA. I actually started as E HR global chief financial officer. So yeah, from an EA to now sitting in the C suite. Boy, there’s a lot that happened in between there. I’d say the thing that’s really I find just so amazing about TBWA as an organization is the they bet on talent. Yeah. And so I’m an example of that, but but through the work that we do, it’s exemplified where the organization is really about people. And yes, we do work for brands and clients. But there’s a huge investment placed in people. And so I was able to always raise my hand for different roles and different things, and be able to have the opportunity they’ve always bet on me and invested in my growth. And so through different roles just fortunate enough to be now sitting in this C suite.

04:11

Well, I’m very hard earned as well. But what what drew you to learning and development?

04:16

Again, at TBWA, we always gather so yes, I started as an executive assistant, and then went on to become a project manager in the role of a project manager. I was working with the marketing team and the marketing team, the global marketing team sits in service to the entire collective Yeah. We always gathered like specialists and different discipline heads and different groups, always gathering to let’s learn to lead us about whatever it is. And so seeing that that was our pattern. I thought you know what, maybe this is something that I can do so I can maybe get into this where I am solely for focusing on gathering our leaders and gathering discipline heads to come together to learn. So yeah, I went in with a spiffy spreadsheet and a deck to my boss, and, hey, at the time said, You know what, I think I’d love to be a program manager. Right? Because we didn’t have that pathway in terms of leadership development or l&d. We didn’t have it on the global level. So yeah, we were always meeting and gathering to learn and get better at our craft. And as a result, I was able to harbor a role for myself, and which eventually led to me being here.

05:45

Well, and you know, as someone who has spoken at many of your training sessions, you definitely bring a passion to helping other people learn and reach their potential. And I think probably that spark in your heart is what folks recognized and why, you know, it’s amazing that it is a C level role that that’s how committed the organization is to developing talent. And like you said, betting on talent, and I wish more companies would would really elevate that as a separate function from HR. I think everyone lumps it under HR, everything, people under HR, and yet they’re very different. They’re very different functions.

06:26

Yeah, for sure. You know, TBWA, I believe we, we’ve been on the vanguard of leadership development. As an industry. We have our parent company, right as the model. So at the at the parent company level, Omnicom has Omnicom University where the investment is an Harvard Business School professors, we have business cases that are developed specific to our network, the Omnicom network and people and leaders within the Omnicom network. So just having that as a model, they’ve definitely set the bar for who we can be as TBWA, and how we can invest in talent. So definitely, we’ve always once we got into the area of Okay, so now this is going to be such specialized, we’re going to be very intentional about how we gather, where we gather, who we gather, once we got into that area, that it became, okay, we want the best of the best as far as bringing in subject matter experts to help grow our people, because we want to give our people an unfair advantage.

07:39

I love that an unfair advantage and, and the fact that you even call it gathering, I noticing that terminology. And that’s wonderful, rather than, you know, setting up training or getting people to attend or this idea of this mutual invitation to, to helping them thrive, and really understanding that, especially in a service based industry, your people are your product, you know, I hate to put you know, I’m using air quotes, but that that is where the innovation comes from. That’s where the creativity comes from, that can’t come from a machine or, you know, I mean, as much as people are doing with AI right now. But it’s being able to develop those people. But what I love even more about this mindset is understanding that it’s a different skill set to lead and manage people. You know, so often and as you’ve probably seen two people get promoted into leadership roles, because they’re good at doing the work. Right, good at the job of leading at the skill of leading and gaining consensus and creating energy and boosting innovation and collaboration. Yeah, so I love that there’s that commitment.

08:53

Yeah, and especially Maria, just the way the world is today. That’s that’s exactly what is needed. As a leader, you’re not going to know everything, there’s no way you can keep pace with the change, right? Technology is just growing at a clip. So therefore, if technology is moving at a clip, you have to be able to one, be collaborative, be able to influence and bring the best out of others because now the spotlight moves from okay, you having all the answers to Hey, you bring it the best and bring you the answers out of others. So that’s how you really demonstrate your value as a leader. And that’s what we recognize. And I think more so because we’re a global collective. It’s we spotted I think that that need or that trend ahead of the others because we’re global, and we have to work with others from different parts of the world to get the solution. So it’s always been one of those markers of success for us in terms of how we value leadership

10:00

Absolutely. And that’s a great dovetail into, you know, what you’re seeing in terms of what leaders need to be successful. Yes, they need to understand the job and the business acumen and understand the market, and all of those things. But you’ve mentioned a few of the skill sets that they need to succeed. What what do you focus on as you’re developing leaders, whether it’s new leaders, or seasoned leaders who need a little brush up? What are more of those skills that are needed in the 21st century to be an effective leader?

10:30

Oh, gosh, self awareness. So I put self awareness as one of the most important things because you, before you can lead others, you have to have a great awareness of your values. Right? You really have to know how you’re showing up for others. So that you can either dial it up or dial it back, you have to know how you received and perceived by others. So self awareness would be number one of the Yeah.

11:13

And that’s so so interesting, because that’s so true. And I’ve often talked about the fact that when, when it comes to empathy, ego kills empathy, because when you’re when you’re stuck in your own, your own stuff, you have no, you have no room to take on another person’s point of view, or even to accept another person’s idea without defensiveness. Yeah, so I love this idea that self awareness is the key. How do you work with leaders to help them build self awareness? Let’s say let’s say, you know, worst case, you’re dealing with someone who has no idea how they’re coming across. And I’m sure you, you’ve had to deal with leaders that are like that. I mean, there’s, there’s the difference between leaders that are brand new, and don’t really understand they don’t really know how they lead yet, because they haven’t had the opportunity. And then there’s leaders and we’ve all had them, who were like, do you even know someone else is in the room? You know, how, how do you go about do you have any? I mean, there’s, there’s not going to be quick tips to this. But what’s a strategy to help someone in the organization develop that self awareness?

12:17

Hmm, that’s a good question. You know, we work with world class coaches, to kind of help our people to develop their leadership skills and identify whether or not they’re sucking the air out of the room. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So I think you really have to ask for feedback, really. So you have to be in great relations with your people to ask for feedback. And it could be it’s difficult getting feedback from the people who reporting to you, right? Because depending on your relationship, that can be tricky,

13:00

right? Especially if you, especially if you think that that’s, that’s negative for you that it’s if you get that feedback, and it’s negative, people are going to see you differently, or they’re going to lose respect for you, when actually, it’s the leaders that ask for feedback that are often more highly respected.

13:17

Yeah. Yeah. So I think you should make that a part of your growth strategy to seek feedback from others.

13:30

Right? And then action? Yes, and then take action on it. Right, right. And the action is not to figure out how to rebut every piece of feedback. But to really take it in and try to understand like, you know, maybe I don’t I don’t see that I’m doing that. But clearly somebody else is perceiving that I do that. So let, let me get curious as to why they have that perception. And maybe they will tell me Well, here’s some specific examples of actions you’ve taken, that make me think you don’t care or you don’t understand our workload or whatever the the negative feedback might be. But I also think there’s, it’s, it’s the self awareness is also like you alluded to, it’s understanding your strengths as well. And we recently did an episode about leaders understanding their strengths. I’ll put a link to it with Brendan Miller. His organization helps people use the the Clifton Strengths Finder, finders, yeah, understand their strengths. And that’s part of the part of the journey is not just self awareness of okay, you’re gonna hear about everything you’re doing that you’re doing wrong, but to also understand where your strengths are, and you might actually be surprised at what some of your strengths are and figure out like you said, how to dial that up as a leader. Do you does does does your company or do you believe in those kinds of diagnostic tools to help leaders improve?

14:51

Oh, definitely the psychometrics die and like we were definitely big on those and different tools for different cheaper because not everyone, you know, kind of buys into everything that you put out there. So we depending on the coach that we’re working with, we would definitely make available to program participants, the various diagnostic and psychometric tools, the more the more insight and data that you can gather on who you are, it definitely helps you to create that, that plan that map for who you want to become,

15:32

at any level, right? Even the most experienced leaders can benefit from, from understanding a little bit more or getting a little bit more insight into their leadership style, and maybe where they have blind spots.

15:43

Definitely, we do this with our most seasoned vets. So we have programs. And that’s the thing that’s great about TBWA, too, as far as we have three pathways to access development opportunities, there’s a nominated track, there’s the application track, and there’s the self directed path. There was a program that we have, there is a problem that we have our seasons that and we recently did Myers Briggs with them. Right? And these are people who have been Yes, you might have had it before. Right. Right. The the assessment before, but it’s great to do it with a new cohort. And this is a trusted cohort, right? So you’re actually giving when you reveal the assessment, you’re giving each other feedback in terms of Yes, I experienced you this way. So yeah, I definitely agree with that, to be able to see it, when you’re at a different stage, in a different setting with different people. It’s definitely enlightening and helps to grow. You

16:51

totally, totally, I remember doing a Myers Briggs exercise in one of my corporate gigs about, oh, gosh, it must be about 20 years ago now. And I had taken Myers Briggs when I was in high school, and taking it one other time between that, that corporate position. And I was always the same except I was ENFJ. Except the last time I took it, I was borderline J and whatever the last, I don’t remember if it’s p or not. P Yeah, I was borderline on that. But I it was, it was really interesting to see how I had been consistent from high school when I knew you know, nothing about leading. But what was interesting about the exercise we did as a as a, as a department was we got into groups where there were you know, we had very opposing, you know, I hate to use that word, but opposing letters. And everyone got to talk about what it was like, for them being in meetings, what it was, like, you know, and why, you know, this was frustrating to me. And that’s frustrating to me. And I thought that was really powerful to have us actually listen to each other and hear what our experiences are coming from those different personality types and different leadership types. And so it was really helpful to hear from someone you know, who we all thought was very cold and standoffish to say, I just can’t think fast enough in a meeting. I’m an introvert, and I just need time to gather my thoughts. And, and it was just an amazing breakthrough of understanding to be able to do that exercise. And I can only imagine, especially if you’re more senior, and you’re willing to be humble, and going, you know, I can always improve. It doesn’t matter if I’ve been at this for 30 years or 40 years. So I love hearing that. So let’s talk a little bit about the different generations in the workplace, because there’s been you know, we often cite the statistic that we now have five generations in the workforce right now. And that can cause a lot of friction. And I’m wondering if there’s a different mindset or different curriculum, if you’ve got Gen Z leaders versus baby boomer leaders, or Gen X, or is there is there any difference that you’re seeing around what those different cohorts need in terms of leadership development?

19:04

You know, where rather than looking at the differences in terms of their different styles and ways of being I think we like to look at what are the common ground? Yeah, what is the common ground? Yeah, what what it is that? Each of those profiles, and really, we manage individuals, so let me back up for a second, right. And I’m gonna take advantage.

19:32

Okay, hang on. Hang on, there’s a plane flying overhead. That’s why just so you know, that’s why I keep muting every now and then because I’m reading flight path. And then I’ll just tell my editor, we’ll go back. I love this answer, by the way, thank you. Okay, all right. And

20:01

Yeah, I think rather than looking at the differences between the generations, we look for the common ground. Alright. The other thing about TBWA is that we are really big on managing individuals versus managing an entire segment of the population. So with that, it’s what do they have in common? What does everyone have in common? Everyone wants to be treated with dignity. Everyone wants to know that they’re doing meaningful work. Everyone wants to know that they’re compensated for what they’re worth. And that they’re bringing something of value to the organization. Alright, so it’s not as much as Oh, yes, they do have

20:49

oh, I text more than you do. Yeah, exactly. It’s not those those little actions, right. Yeah.

20:54

Okay. But it’s, what’s the message that needs to be communicated? And how can you communicate that message? Yes. So it’s what’s your signature style. And so that’s why it’s super important as, as a leader, regardless of which generation you fall within, to have an authentic signature style of communicating. And I think if your team sees you as having their best interests at heart, doesn’t matter if it’s text, or if it’s in person, whatever the style is, if they know that my boss has my best interest, they’re going to show up for you. So I think we are much more interested in what are the common areas that we have that we can reach everyone, because at this point, it’s development, leadership development is about developing the entire organization. So we’re no longer cherry picking these five leaders to grow? We are really, it’s about how do we bring out the leader in everyone? Yeah, because that’s what’s required to be collaborative to be able to influence across cultures and differences. That’s what’s required now, to be innovative, to be creative to solve for our clients to have a workplace, that’s a place of belonging for everyone. So as much as the difference, the difference is the strength.

22:30

I love that the difference is the strength. And it’s really just about understanding those differences. And those contexts I’ve heard of. I’ve heard of other organizations that have done purposeful, purposeful, mentoring relationships, where they’ve actually paired up, you know, very senior baby boomer executives with, like a brand new Gen Z manager. And the goal of it is to help them learn from each other. And what often happens is that the younger people, don’t they go in going, I don’t know what I’m going to teach this person. But it’s actually this wonderful collaboration and this wonderful, empathetic exercise of understanding the worlds of these folks and how they see the world of work. And, and like you said, then getting back to that, well, here’s what we have in common. And you can avoid a lot of misunderstandings, I think, in that case.

23:20

Yeah, I love the idea that that mentor eye because then feely as you said, it comes back to what do we have in common? And it comes back to relationships, why empathy is so important in the work that you’re doing is so important.

23:36

Yeah. So I want to talk to you a little bit about, we were talking before we started recording about a common lament, I’m hearing from quite a few leaders that are under a lot of stress right now, specifically in the tech industry, but I’m sure all over where they are leaders that have been working on the you know, making their signature style, one have empathy, and collaboration and understanding and lack of ego and all the things and yet they’re being faced with a lack of empathy coming from their employees. So they feel like they’re working really hard to show empathy. But then there’s, there’s sometimes there’s employees that are, you know, not pulling their weight or not, you know, willing to do a little bit extra and tough times. And they’re struggling because they know, you know, I want to respect boundaries, I want to be understanding of what’s going on for this person. And we still have to get the work done. I’m still responsible for the performance of the organization. And so they’re they’re really struggling, they’re having this existential crisis of what do I do? And you had some great advice when we were talking about this before we started recording. And I would love if you would share this with our audience of how can leaders work through those kinds of difficult relationships they might have maybe not with all of their employees, but maybe certain employees that that but they’re not. They’re not doing the job they need them to do.

25:04

Yeah, in a hurry, I think, as if it’s a team, whatever it is a team equip the people that you’re managing one, I think you have to come in and agree on what your team’s mission is. So establish a mission. Right? Which everyone together, you establish that mission. So it’s not something that you as a team leader should come and be like, This is

25:29

our mission. Yeah. Like, why did why do you think we’re here? Why? Why are you here? Why did you join? Exactly?

25:37

Why is that establish the why? Right? Alright. So once you’ve done that, and you’ve built, really the trust, as one person, it goes back to what we said earlier, right? It just can’t be one person just putting things out there. So if I’m empathetic towards you, I’m gonna expect you to be empathetic towards me, because we are in this together. So creating that environment where it’s a shared low, where you have set the bar, and I think that’s something that you have to do together. And it goes back to what’s our mission? What’s our purpose? Why are we here? What do we believe in? Hmm.

26:18

So love that. And I love doing that. Also, as a micro culture, I’ve talked to teams about that before where maybe they’re frustrated, they’re in a larger organization, and they don’t feel like the C suite is an empathetic leadership body. And I always tell them, you don’t have to wait. If you have your team, you can create a micro culture within your team, and come up with your values for your team and your mission and your standards of excellence. And then you actually end up becoming a model, because then when you You’re killing it on your goals, people go, how are they doing that? Exactly. Right. And so you’re able to, you know, this is the the, the complaint, I hear a lot with people in organizations that like, Well, I’m not in a leadership position, how can I get my leadership to understand that empathy is important, or culture is important. You can start with your own sphere of influence. And that’s why I love what you’re saying. It’s making sure you as a leader are having having those you mentioned earlier, those tough conversations. Yeah.

27:17

And I think that’s why it’s important to have your authentic voice, your authentic style of communication, like you, you really have to work on that. Right. So then you’re able really to have those difficult conversations, and have them at times, it’s

27:39

I think we’re in this place where, you know, we have to be very careful how we thread. And so at times when we’re having difficult conversations, it’s so it’s it’s cloudy, it’s fluffy. Yes. Yeah.

28:00

It’s scary.

28:01

Yeah, yeah. So it’s, but it’s not, at the end, the conversation ends, and the point that you’re trying to make is not really delivered with the impact that you intended to have, right. So we really can’t shy away from being clear and direct in terms of what the deliverables and the expectations are for being a member of this team. And then really, being willing to make the tough decisions, not only the tough conversations, but then tough decisions, when you know, it’s apparent that things aren’t quite working out the way that you need them to.

28:46

Right, right, and having that empathy, because I always say, you know, when you’re having these difficult performance evaluations, for example, no one really wants to come to work and fail every day. So you know, they might be struggling too. And maybe then at that point, it’s it’s not the first course of action. But maybe at that point, the empathetic thing to do is, maybe we need to find you a different role. Or maybe we need to shore up your skills in this particular area. But you can’t know that unless you have those conversations. And what you’re saying to me is just getting me so excited, because again, it goes back to the fact that these are not soft skills at all, being able to communicate and collaborate and have honest conversations and be authentic. That’s not fluff that actually impacts performance and the bottom line, because people can get work done and I’m getting all my up on my soapbox again. But you know, you’ve just proven again, how that how that those dots connect for people that we call these soft skills, we you know, people roll their eyes or say and empathy workshop is a waste of time or whatever, but it’s those skills that can actually destroy a team or destroy an organization or, you know, maybe not destroy but hinder them from hitting their goals. holes.

30:00

Yeah. And I think that’s something. When I said TBWA has always been in Vanguard that as an organization, we realized and always infested it, right. Always invested in terms of growing and developing to softer side of business, which has a very huge impact on the bottom line

30:20

has a very hard impact on the bottom. Totally, totally. I love it. So, as we wrap up here, what what do you think is changing? Or what do you think has changed from how long you’ve been doing learning and development work? Maybe not maybe TBWA had being on the Vanguard? It’s a little bit of a biased view. But what do you see in terms of the conversations other companies and the market is having about the importance of leadership development? Are you seeing any changes from 10 years ago, 20 years ago, to deal with the realities of business in the 21st century? Yeah, um,

30:59

I think it’s good to have to bet on all. So it’s not because one tenure isn’t the same. Yeah. So now, the average tenure is what I think like four years. Yeah. Alright, so you have your talent for a little while. One of our coaches says, you know, you’re now renting them, right? Yeah, yeah. So So you always have to present the most compelling reason for that person to stay. And so, gosh, if I know I can grow, I can flourish here, then maybe you’ve had me for a little while longer. So the thing of you have to do that on the individual level, and you have to do it for all. So it’s not just a squeaky wheel anymore.

31:52

Right? Right. Or it’s not even just like, we only bet on our top, top perform high. What do they call it? high potential?

31:59

Yeah. high potential. Yes. Everybody’s high

32:03

potential if we if we invest enough in them, right. Most of the time. Yeah. So I love that. And I, you know, that’s the thing I’m hoping cuz you still see some companies clinging to the old ways of just know, when I have a, you know, when someone’s performing badly, we caught them. When someone is, you know, a squeaky wheel, we, we love them, we’re fine. Yeah, we let them go or, and then we only bet on the people that are, you know, showing their loyalty to US versus let’s create an environment where we’re not trying so hard to attract. People are magnetized. To us as an organization, I think that’s what’s going to be the key to success for companies in every market going forward. And the ones you know, I hear these horror stories all the time, people tell me these horror stories about management teams and executive teams, and I can’t believe that things they’re doing in 2023. And yet they are and I’m like, they’re gonna wake up. And that’s going to be a really awful hangover. When they when they finally realize what they’ve lost out on.

33:08

Yeah, at Timmy web one and make your tenure the place where you’ve done your best work. So we are going to do everything possible to empower you to do your best work. So that means you have to have the best managers, that means that we have to have the best development programs. That means we are always betting on you. Because we want this to be the place where we understand you’re only here for four years, whatever the tenure is, right? But when you look on your body of work, you identify, I did my best work when I was at TBWA. Like that’s our mission. Oh my gosh, you took place. Flourishing. Yeah, thriving.

33:53

Yeah. And if every company did that, imagine how amazing work would be for people. And imagine what imagine what they’d be able to do. You can’t even imagine what they’d be able to do and what they’d be able to accomplish. So I hope this is a this is a an invitation to anyone listening, not only in the C suite, but in learning and development is to really create that culture, where you’re betting on your people and and you have the self awareness to know that they’re not going to be lifers. I mean, if you get lifers, great, good for you, that’s a unicorn, but to really understand, okay, they might be here just, they might just be here for a few years. How can we help them thrive? And also, you know, get the most out of that while they’re here? Yeah, as

34:37

you said, people want to come to work and know that gosh, this is the place where I can do my best work and I you do come into it with a commitment of doing the best. Right so yeah, how can we help you keep that commitment?

34:54

I love it. I love it. Well, we will leave it there. Rhonda, thank you so much for your time and your energy and your passion. Your work. Again, I’m so excited for your new role as chief learning officer. And we will have all of your links in the show notes. But for folks that are on a jog right now listening to us, where’s the best place they can learn more about you or connect with you?

35:16

Um, hey, I think it would be LinkedIn. I would say I’m on LinkedIn. I’ve ventured into Tik Tok, but I’m unfiltered and Tik Tok. So

35:27

the real Ronda is in Tik Tok, they will find you. No, that’s great. We will end you know, if anyone wants to connect with you. They can connect via LinkedIn. Make sure that if you do LinkedIn etiquette, customize your invite, and tell her that you heard her on the empathy edge podcast. Rhonda, thank you so much for your time today. I look forward to collaborating with you more in the future.

35:49

Maria, this is my pleasure. Thank you so much. And thank you for the work that you’ve done and continue to do that at the end of the

35:54

day. Thank you and thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, rate and review and share it with a friend. And until next time, please remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Think about your organization’s values for a second. I bet you have values such as integrity, honesty, innovation, or others that are similar. Maybe you have something like, Take Risks, or Customer Obsession, or even Embrace Curiosity. But do you have the word “love” anywhere on that list? Does even saying that in a business context make you feel a bit nervous?

While it’s Valentine’s Day season and we’re talking about love in all its forms this time of year, I bet you never thought about including that word in any sort of business communications whatsoever except maybe to say “We love our customers” or “We love a challenge.”

Your invitation today is to think about the role love plays in your company’s mission, culture, and success, in the way you operate with each other, and to not be afraid of it anymore. We’re in this together. But we need to show up in ALL areas of our lives and business. Don’t be afraid to make work personal.  Get aligned. Choose love. 

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• We don’t all have a common definition or construct around love, even though it’s one of the most important human emotions.
• “Love is a combination of care, commitment, knowledge, responsibility, respect, and trust.” – bell hooks
• Choose love – you can start small with those in your circle and let it grow from there. We are in this together, but we need to show up and choose love in all aspects of our lives. 

“Now is the time to use your voice and choose love – as a leader, as a colleague, and as an organization.” —  Maria Ross

References Mentioned:

bell hooks: All About Love: New Visions

Red Slice blog post: Choose Love

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

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Think about your organization’s values for a sec. Oh, and if you don’t have those articulated, we should probably talk. I bet you have values such as integrity, honesty, innovation, fail fast, or others that are similar, maybe you have something like take risks or customer obsession, or even, as one client of mine did in the past, embrace curiosity, which I always loved, especially as it relates to empathy. But do you have the word love anywhere on that list? Does even me saying that in a business context make you feel a bit nervous while it’s Valentine’s Day season, and we’re talking about love in all its forms, this time of year, I bet you never thought about including that word in any sort of business communications whatsoever, except maybe to say we love our customers or we love A challenge. Well, your invitation today is to think about the role love plays in your company’s mission, culture and success, in the way we operate with each other, and to not be afraid of it anymore. Of course, I don’t mean romantic love, although I and a few others all met our spouses at one particular company I once worked for, I’m talking about love in its truest form. Last year, I devoured Bell Hooks, his book all about love, New Visions, in which she explores the fact that we don’t all have a common definition or construct around love, even though it’s one of the most important human emotions, and that’s part of the problem, individually and as a collective world. The book got me thinking about what I really believe love to be. I’d never really thought that much about it before. And she goes on to talk about how we conflate love with romantic love or caring, or even fondness. For those of you who don’t know her Bell was an American author and social activist writing about race, feminism and class she explored the intersectionality of race, capitalism and gender and what she described as their ability to produce and perpetuate systems of oppression and class domination. She published more than 40 books, ranging from essays to poetry to children’s books, and appeared in many documentary films, as well as being a lecturer. She sadly passed away in 2021 and to my own detriment, that was the first time I ever heard of her. So I began reading her work. Bell writes that quote Love is a combination of care, commitment, knowledge, responsibility, respect and trust. She also states in another book that to love well is the task in all meaningful relationships, not just romantic bonds, commitment, responsibility, respect, trust required in all meaningful relationships. If that doesn’t have a place in organizational culture, I don’t know what does our workplaces are, where many of us spend the bulk of our time, if you add up the time each week, you often spend way more of your waking hours with your work colleagues, clients or customers, than with your own family. So how can love not have a place in these essential relationships? Again, we don’t have to think of love romantically. We can think of it exactly how Belle describes it. Love means caring. It means commitment. It means honesty, respect and trust as we break free from outdated models of corporate culture and dysfunctional relationships with colleagues or customers, we can see that love absolutely needs to be part of the equation. A while back, I wrote a blog post called choose love, and I’ll link to it in the show notes. It was about embedding love into your values and business model, no matter what you do, no matter how big or small your organization, no matter who you are, you have influence, whether it’s 100,000 followers a team of 150
or your email list is just your mom and your best friend, whatever you’ve got use it.
Right. Never underestimate the importance of your work or message, no matter what your role. It may seem trite, but if you can influence or inspire even just a few, then you’ve done your job well.
Now more than ever in these tumultuous times when folks are feeling raw, vulnerable and afraid. Now is the time to use your voice and choose love as a leader, as colleagues and yes, as an organization.
You can absolutely build love into your values, leadership style, or Yes, business model like this. Love yourself and be self confident so that you don’t feel the need to bully others or let bullies win over you. Love your neighbors and colleagues, so that all people can feel accepted and appreciated. Love your clients, so you can bring real, honest value to them. Love your customers, so you can make their lives better with your products or services. Love your partners so you can create wins that benefit everyone. Love your community, so you can collectively pull everyone up together. Love your environment, so it’s beauty and nourishment and riches generations to come. Love your family and friends so they have a firm foundation to fully spread their own love to others. Here’s what I know to be true, no matter what your religion, nationality, gender, identity or even sexual orientation, the only thing that matters is how you show up in the world and love. You are the example when you think no one is watching, because sometimes only you are watching and you want to be proud of what you see.
Same thing goes for your company. Maybe you’re not world famous, maybe you don’t think the press will care about you. Or perhaps you think you’re so large that such a personal value doesn’t impact your work day to day. I’m here to tell you that’s not true. It all matters to someone somewhere, sometime, an employee, a leader, a customer, someone in the community,
choose love. Start small and practice love with whoever is in your circle of influence right now, if that’s just your family and friends, choose love, if it’s a small team or 1000s of employees, stakeholders or email subscribers or Instagram followers, choose love.
We’re in this together, but we need to show up in all areas of our lives, business too. Don’t be afraid to make work personal. Get aligned, choose love.
Thanks for listening. Have a great February.

 

If we help young people develop empathy throughout their educational journey, they can boost understanding, reduce bias, and nurture a culture of belonging and increased well-being. Of course, many of us adults need this, too! My guest today, Ed Kirwan, founder, and filmmaker of Empathy Week, is tackling the challenge for future generations so that maybe someday there won’t be a need for empathy books like mine because this skill will be so ingrained in our consciousness, starting from a young age.

Today, Ed talks about his journey from teacher to filmmaker and how he discovered the power of film to expand minds and activate behavior in his own classroom. Now through Empathy Week, he leverages films to develop empathy and expose students to different cultures, lifestyles, and points of view so they can better collaborate and create belonging. If you are a parent, teacher, or administrator, please look into Empathy Week for your school. Enjoy the conversation!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• Film gives us an excuse and a reason to reflect and talk about our past experiences and to start conversations to connect with one another.
• Empathy is not soft or weak. It will increase productivity. It will increase retention. It will strengthen your bottom line.
• We need to spend more time listening and asking questions. Listening is great, but unless you’re asking questions, you’re not having a conversation, and you’re not learning.

“It’s about increasing the number of experiences and the diversity of those experiences. Where films and arts can be so powerful are with low-cost, scalable actions to change perspective and build empathy.” —  Ed Kirwan

Ed Kirwan, CEO and Founder, Empathy Week

Ed Kirwan is the CEO, founder, and filmmaker at Empathy Week – an award-winning global educational event and programme using the power of film to develop the skill of empathy.

Empathy Week has so far engaged over 140,000 students across 40 countries with a mission to build the #EmpathyGeneration. Having worked with Cambridge University, Empathy Week has proven that empathy can be developed and also help increase students’ self-esteem whilst reducing othering and stereotypes.

Previously a teacher and Head of Chemistry in a North London School for 3 years, Ed also completed a Masters in Education and Leadership at UCL IOE. He then moved into a career of filmmaking and human-led storytelling.

Ed believes that in order to change the world we first have to understand the people in it. Empathy is the number one skill to develop and underpins other vitally important skills such as leadership, creativity, innovation, and teamwork. Whilst also being a catalyst for well-being and mental health, it is crucial to leading a better personal and professional life.

Connect with Ed Kirwan:

Empathy Week Ltd: https://www.empathy-week.com/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/EdKirwan

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ed-kirwan/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/empathyweek/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/empathyweek/

Check out a trailer for Empathy Week –  2023’s starts week of Feb 27!

http://www.empathy-week.com

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

If we help young people to develop empathy throughout their educational journey, they can boost understanding reduce bias and nurture a culture of belonging and increased well being. Of course, many of us adults need this too. And my guest today Ed Kerwin, founder and filmmaker of empathy week, is tackling this challenge for future generations so that maybe just maybe, someday there won’t be a need for empathy books like mine, because this skill will be so ingrained in our consciousness starting from a young age. Empathy week is an award winning global Schools program and 40 plus countries using the power of film to develop the crucial skill of empathy in students aged five to 18. It starts this year on February 27, a few weeks from now, and all schools and teachers are invited to take part online empathy week has so far engaged over 140,000 students across 40 countries with a mission to build the hashtag empathy generation. Having worked with Cambridge University, empathy week has proven that empathy can be developed and also help increase student’s self esteem while reducing othering and stereotypes. Today, Ed talks about his journey from teacher to filmmaker, and how he discovered the power of film to expand minds and activate behavior in his own classroom. Now, through empathy week, he leverages film to develop empathy and expose students to different cultures, lifestyles and points of view so they can better collaborate and create belonging. If you’re a parent, teacher or administrator, please look into empathy week for your school. Enjoy the conversation.

01:55

Ed Kerwin, welcome

01:56

to the empathy edge to talk to us about all things empathy week, and teaching children empathy. Welcome.

02:04

amazing to be here. Thank you for having me.

Maria Ross  02:06

So I want to start with your story. Because you are a filmmaker, you used to be a teacher, you are really all about human led storytelling. Tell us a little bit about your journey. And what brought you to this work of helping children learn the skill of empathy?

Ed Kirwan  02:27

Oh, where do you want me to start early on, I’ll probably start from maybe me as a as a kid at school because I think that’s always interesting. I think that tells a lot about people. But I was an active young boy, let’s say I was involved in a lot of sport as a kid, I actually really enjoyed school, I had quite an interesting schooling life in the sense that I went to a state school, public school in the US up until the age of 16. And I actually went to a private sick former a private college 16 to 18. And had a huge kind of shift in what I saw as education. But that’s been super useful. Now as a as an adult, having seen the sister to kind of competing systems of education, loves both for very different reasons, was very kind of, I’ve always been quite practical lead. So I really enjoyed science because I just loved the practical side of it. And I was kind of pushed to be academic by my parents. I think I’ve got like an Irish dad as well, my father kind of born in Ireland and grew up in the UK. And then my mum, Scottish and they kind of both wanted the sons, I’ve got brother to be kind of academic and push for that kind of university level to set me up for life. So I did science and I studied biochemistry at uni, and I thought I might become a doctor. And then I actually decided to go into teaching. And I think that came from the fact that my mother was a child minder growing up. So my mom looked after two to three children from the ages of six months to three years old. In my house, from the age of two, I would say it was all I remember from the age of two, till I was 22. Even when I came back from university, I’ll be woken up at 7am by you know, screaming babies and children being dropped off at the house. And picking up a child or picking up a baby was just second nature because it’s all I ever knew. And I think I had then that kind of led me to write teachings quite practical. I like kids. I like getting on with kids. I was coaching some basketball as well. So I tried my hand at teaching science teaching, which is actually crazy. Because it’s just, it’s just a completely different side of the classroom when you’re the teacher and you’re in charge of 15 Bunsen burners and 30 kids, you know, try not to kill themselves, with fire going everywhere and just metal exploding all sorts of stuff, but I loved it. I absolutely of teaching, and I was teaching North London School of 1600 kids, I went through a program called Teach First, which is the equivalent to Teach for America. And actually, there’s 50 kind of different organizations that do the same thing. So there’s teach for Nepal as teach for Vietnam, to teach for. I think, Nigeria right now as well, yeah, there’s there all over the world. But basically, they send you into schools that maybe have students that are of lower socioeconomic background, and are really trying to bring up education and level up people. And I taught for three years. And that was a huge Lee defining, I suppose, life moment for me. First kind of idea of proper work. I mean, I’ve done lots of other jobs, working in bars and working as a cash out checkout person and all sorts of stuff, but actually having a full time job and then being responsible for student’s education at the age of 22. It’s quite, it’s quite overwhelming. But that’s kind of where I suppose.

06:02

Yeah. How did you make that leap into filmmaking? From teaching?

06:06

So yeah, so I really loved when I was teaching, I love the fact that I had a chance to also, I was quite creative. In my lessons, I didn’t feel I maybe pushed it a little bit was a bit cheeky, because I think the head teacher would want you to run a lesson in a certain way. But I would try and be creative. And I would also, sometimes just stop a lesson for half an hour. And just talk to students about, you know, what’s going on in the world, because they will complain about the most ridiculous of things like a 15 minute homework, I want to remember a girl. Alright, so no, but yeah, you’re 11. So 1516 years old, and I gave them half of the time the homework they should have had, because I was always about right, I just want you to do something that is going to be really beneficial for you. And this 15 minute question. 15 minutes of exam questions. I want you to do this. Ah, sir, I’ve got got party this weekend. And I said, oh, sorry for giving you homework that’s going to help you for the rest of your life, you know, sorry for giving you something that’s actually going to benefit you. I said to you, I will only give you something, and I said to them, I said, Well, you shot on the way to school. And this was probably 2015 16. And a lot around isis a lot around Syria, in the news, and I had, you know, our school had refugees from Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, as well. A lot of the students in my class were the children of refugees, or people that have come over to this country for a better life. And I said to them, go home and ask your parents, you know, how many of you in here, a first generation English born, you know, most of them? If and actually the ones that weren’t, then were, you know, they arrived in the country. I said, you know, you’ve You’re so lucky to be here. And I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the White Helmets. It’s a Netflix film, which basically followed the Syrian Civil War kind of force, they rescue people out bombed out buildings, and it won an Oscar. And the opening sequence of this film is a bombed out building, they rushed into it. And they managed to pull out a baby and they’re all screaming Allahu Akbar, God is great. Coming out, coming out of a building a child’s crying, but they’re, they’re celebrating that, you know, they’re pulling people out alive. And all of a sudden you just hear the bomb hit another bomb hits exactly that building. And it just goes black. And it just cuts out. And I showed them this clip. And just it was dead silent in the room of like 3016 year old teenagers who had just been putting up a little fight about some small bits of homework, Monday morning, hundreds and homework and I don’t think I’d ever heard that. And it was little things like this little moments where I also had an infamous group of young men called the U gang, self self proclaimed new gang. So they, they all got ungraded in their mock exams, a bunch of young boys put together and I taught them and it was the same thing with them. I would always show them like motivational videos, often around basketball, because it was a shared common interest about you know, going against the odds and trying to pump them up and I realized the power that video and film had. I also really enjoyed speaking. And then when it came three years in, I just decided to I basically kind of burnt out from education or burnt out from teaching. I certainly took too much on I got promoted too fast. The position was there as a young male with an ego. I wanted more money and a little bit more power, but also kind of common sense. I was like if I don’t take it, I’m gonna end up doing this job any way for less money. So did I took a kind of position as a head of Chemistry at 2324 And then I also studied part time Master’s in leadership and education at UCL and was writing then a dissertation. 20,000 words in the summer, and I just decided, right, this is too much. And I took some time out, because I realized I’d been in formal education, whether it was school, university, or then teaching myself from the age of five. And I was now 25. And I was like, I’ve never actually had any choice about when I take a holiday, or when I, you know what I do? So I took some time out. And then it was from there that I managed to do a voluntary trip with the government to work with entrepreneurs. And it basically, then yeah, I really realized that, ultimately, I came back, I wanted to do stuff around homelessness, that was something I chose as a teacher in school to talk about to get the students to really care about, and I essentially picked up a camera and started filming people across the UK. And then even in Mexico at the Homeless World Cup. And that’s where my kind of idea of filmmaking came was I wasn’t trained in it, I wasn’t any good at it. I learned through YouTube. And I just realized that actually to tell the stories of people who were homeless, I actually needed to film I needed to use film as a as a tool. And I realized it can be a very powerful tool to actually develop that empathy in people.

11:21

So let’s talk about that. Because how do you feel as a filmmaker, I’ve talked a lot in my book, and also as I am sort of a part time actress in my spare time, which I don’t have any of now that I have an eight year old. But I really believe that film and story and documentary and art is a great teacher of empathy. It gives us a safe place to practice empathy and practice thinking about cognitive empathy. What would it be like, if I was in that situation? For you, on the other side of the camera? How do you see film being a tool to engender and cultivate empathy? What? What have you seen, you’ve obviously shared what you’ve seen in your classroom. But since now doing filmmaking full time and telling those other stories, what are some of the transformations that you see? And how do you feel that film can be used to create more empathy?

12:12

Gosh, it’s, I think we all can relate to a time if you’re listening to this podcast, you’ve probably been to a cinema. And I don’t think it’s just it’s not just so much about the film, or the art, whatever art form it is, I also think it’s about the environment that it’s observed in. So I could I could show you a film on my phone, on a busy train on a 9am commute. And you’ve got some headphones in and you’re trying to listen and watch it. And it would not have the same impact as it would if you sat in a dark cinema with really good sound and really good visuals. So I think environment is also an important thing to consider. But I think it is just so powerful. And the thing about art. And the thing about any art form, whether it’s play song, film, is that actually everyone reacts to it completely differently. So if I sat everyone in a cinema screening showed them Star Wars, same cinema, same day, same city, same location, the weather’s the same, everything’s the same handed surveys to people outside as they came out. And I said, What’s your favorite moment? Where was the moment where you felt felt most emotional? All of these questions, they will all have completely different answers. And that’s because all of us have completely different lives. Up until this moment in time, we have all lived completely different past experiences. And I think the power of film is that it allows us to then it gives us an excuse also to talk about our past experiences. It gives us a reason to reflect on what we’ve done and where we’ve been. It gives us hope for the future as well. It brings up so many emotions, and so many thoughts and ideas. And one powerful thing that I’ve realized with the films that I make for empathy week, when they go into schools is that they are conversation starters. So you I always say you have you have either one of two people, when you show a film, you can either have someone that can relate, and therefore feel seen and heard and understood. But also has them permission to talk about that and can also bounce off can reflect their own experiences of someone else. So they don’t feel as alien. They don’t feel as often people think, oh, it’s totally me that’s going through this, I can’t, I can’t say anything because I don’t want to look like I’m making a scene or all of these things. All of a sudden, that person has a little bit more confidence to say, You know what I felt like this in the past, not the same thing, but I can I can relate. And then you’ve got the other type person who goes, You know what, I have no idea. I have not even thought about that perspective. I’ve not even seen that kind of life. But now I have a bit more understanding. Both are just as equally as equally as powerful. But what happens when you have both of them in the same room and then you create that environment. Where you allow discussion? Oh, it’s amazing. I have teachers like, come to me and say, Oh, the lesson, the lesson plans are too long. And I said, Okay, well, what’s long about? All the students won’t stop asking questions. And I said, Isn’t that like, isn’t that the perfect scenario? You know, where you have a lesson where, or a time where students are asking all these questions, and I go back to teachers and say, Actually, this is showing that you need to spend more time talking about this with your students. And we’ve we all know that if you rock up to a room full of people can be students could be adults, go right, Mental Health Awareness week or month, right? Who’s feeling crap? You know? And no one’s gonna say anything. Right? Right, you show a film, and then you give permission for people to an opportunity for people to talk about it. film songs, art, theater, cultural events, they are the key to unlocking emotions, perspectives of other people. And without them, our world really suffers. And I think we saw that through COVID, where art was diminished. And these cultural gatherings were diminished.

16:07

Yeah, absolutely. And so what led you to creating empathy week, which is, you know, a worldwide event where schools from all over the world are participating students from all over the world and their teachers? What? What how did that come about? If you can just quickly give us a

16:25

Yeah, so

16:27

empathy week? Yeah, it

16:28

came about, by chance, in a way. So I was I was filming a lot around homelessness in the UK, and then a man called John Finnegan, who runs a football team full of people who are experiencing homelessness, again, giving them a chance to play and feel seen and heard said, Oh, have you heard about the Homeless World Cup? I said, No, what’s that he said, you know, everyone gets together and plays football from different countries. And it was in Mexico that year, and I said, you know, I’m gonna go went out there, met the Indian team, who then said, Do you want to come to India after and I was, by this point, I was just like, just riding, riding a wave of opportunity. And I said, if you can pay for my flight, and keep me alive, ask them out, then yeah, I’ll come. So went out and volunteered out there. And I helped them develop a leadership course alongside their football program. And I was there for three months. And then I realized, hang on, I’m going to be in the middle of India, where I’m going to be alongside these people are going to really get to know them. And I’m, I’m a filmmaker, and I’ve got to a good level where it’s starting to get paid, it was starting to become my income. So I’m going to create some films. And I at this point, I was doing lots of different projects. So I could create some films about these people that it isn’t poverty porn. It’s not a charity advert. It’s not for charity, it’s not to raise money. I think that’s really important, I think, yeah, I think we could have raised money. But I think it’s really important not to do that, to really emphasize that this film was about developing empathy, not about raising money. And I think there’s been so much damage being done by charity in the past where it’s played off of people’s environment, and to raise money for a good cause, okay, but isn’t changed behavior. And miss it, I had lots of frustrations when I was a teacher. And everything kind of came into one I was like, I’m so annoyed with students just bringing in a pound or $1, or whatever, to wear non uniform for this course, they can even tell me the name of the charity they’re raising money for. So it’s not changing their behavior, which is actually what we need in this world. Because money when he goes, it’s fleeting, right? But to change the behavior of a student, so that they understand another perspective, and maybe someone who has a disability and they don’t and be able to communicate, that’s way more powerful. So I thought, right, we can create these films. And I have the trust of these people. This organization called slum soccer. And it just started as a project. And it just started actually, for secondary students. Ages 11 to 18. And just for UK schools and other countries and teachers got wind of it started signups on Well, I’m not going to stop them. So they did that. And I’m a second year we expanded to primary school. So we now do five to 18 years old. So we we’ve How it works is that I film an amazing person’s life. For 11 to 18 year olds, I create a film that’s 10 minutes long, it’s then slightly shorter and slightly different topics for eight to 10 year olds. And then there’s a five to seven year old version that’s three or four minutes long, which is very much just about the students getting to see them meet them see their environment. So it’s, it’s managed for their cognitive level of, of education and for them to be able to engage with it. And then we have lesson resources that go alongside it to support that learning because it’s not just about watching a film then. Okay, done. It’s about those discussions.

19:48

So does the week take place where they log in online and everyone’s doing the same? Watching the same film and having the same discussion every day? Or do you give them just one film and And one group of curricula, and then they can do it whenever they want during that week, it actually work.

20:06

So it’s changed over the years. And we’ve adapted it just from feedback. And you know, we’re constantly learning and it’s kind of changed a little bit every year. But what we now say is that, right, empathy week, you start it in empathy week, this year, for the first time, we’ve actually got like a series of events, webinars and different things for students and teachers during that week. So it’s more of a celebration of empathy and different concepts. But they start with the five, we now call it like a five week film program, because teachers have said that they actually prefer to watch one film a week, because it’s so dense, and so much, actually, that works better, right, the more the more touch points you have over a longer period of time, it’s going to develop empathy better than a really high spike, you know, a full empathy day, and then nothing for another year. So we actually prefer that that’s the feedback we’ve had from teachers. But ultimately, once teachers have registered, having been a teacher, myself, we try and make it as easy as possible, right for all the resources. So you get, you get even certificates to download. We even pre write a letter to parents that you can just as a teacher, you can change your school address, and then send that out to parents so they know what’s going on. And they can get involved, we we try and keep it as simple as possible in the sense that we have one key teacher at each school that logs in with one login, because I’ve been on the receiving end of trying to do something at school, and then you’ve got 150, teachers at school, 30 of them can’t sign in. It’s just chaos, right? So we just, we we try and keep it as simple as possible. But also there’s flexible, there’s a structure that has a flexibility to it as well.

21:35

And so can can parents participate in it? Or does it have to have to be through their school.

21:40

So we always ask schools to register. That’s kind of our base. Because also, you know, we’ve got our our own IP to protect, but also because we want these films to be delivered in, in the way that encourages the development of empathy and sympathy, and a group setting. And with with a trusted adult there as well, because, like we’re saying a lot, a lot of the time you do not know even your students potentially what they’ve been through. And so some of these films in the past that we have, some of them have talked about suicide for the older students, some of them talked about really serious issues, racism and gender, gender, gender identity, gender identity, their various various different discrimination as well. And you might not know that actually a student is going through that. And so if that’s brought up and they’re on their own, it might or they might not want to talk to parent, however, this year, for registered schools, we are giving access to the events platform, with the talks and things for parents to get involved with to. And it’s definitely something that we want to continue to do I always talk about it, like the triangle right of education is really, you know, you’ve got the school as an environment, you’ve got the teacher, and you’ve got the parent, and you’ve got the kind of the student in the middle. And often one of them’s missing. Either the teachers are disengaged, or the schools not good environment, or the parents kind of out the picture. Yeah, I think if you can have those three around a student, that’s what really brings holistic well being and really great education. And then yeah, the grades and everything else follows, right. But I’m so frustrated with that focus on academics at the moment, without the well being,

23:17

I want to talk about the focus on wellbeing and the catalyst for this event and for the work that you’re doing. What have you seen in terms of the benefits that the schools get, and the students get from an event like empathy week?

23:32

Yeah, it’s, it’s been amazing to actually go into different schools and see what they’ve done with it as well. And I really like the fact that we kind of trust teachers to take the resources and then okay, we say, this is how we would use them. But every school is different. Of course, it’s not even just every school, every classroom is different. So even within watching the same film, within each of the classes in the same school, you’re gonna get different conversations and different outcomes and different talks. But the important thing is that there is conversation and there is accepted. And then that is well being when you can talk openly about yourself, when people feel understood, if you can increase understanding, which is ultimately the foundation and core of empathy, you increase connection. If you increase connection, you increase trust. If you increase trust, you make better relationships. What’s the foundation of well being good relationships is the foundation, with your family, with your friends with society. And if you then have better wellbeing, you are happier, if you’re happier, and you have great well being you have greater productivity. And we’ve seen schools now actually involve the whole year with empathy lessons, put empathy lessons themselves, they’re now trained more about what empathy actually is. Rather than them just thinking it’s, you know, the one okay, just trying to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, because we try and it’s a useful same but we try and say it you know, I’ve seen Brene Brown talk about it as well. I’m sure you know, you know, It’s not so much about you putting someone else in your, in their shoes, it’s about walking, holding someone’s hand and then bringing you through. And I think we’ve just seen well, we’ve done some pilot research with Cambridge University, and Dr. Helen Demetrio who released a paper on empathy in students in 2021, as well. And we’ve seen that actually our program, even if it’s just done for one year, the first year that’s done, there’s an increase in self esteem and students. There’s a reduced reduction in othering. There’s a increased want to find out more about people from other countries, from before and after. And there’s an increased level of empathy, as well as students. And you think we always talk about, okay, it’s not about one year, we talked about building empathy generation, and that is from the age of five to 18. Hopefully, we’ll even move into early years from three soon. But if you can build that five people’s films, every year, for 13 years of education, from five to eight, that person will have left was 65 an understanding of 65 different people’s life stories. Now, it doesn’t 65 You know, in an age when numbers are thrown about and big numbers are used all the time. 65 doesn’t sound a lot. But if you watch the trailer for empathy read, just for this year, and you see the diversity of fight the five people from the pool, cheer on who’s blind, you know, completely visually impaired from from birth, but yet talks about his disability as a complete kind of gift and advantage and he gets to experience lifeline. Not many other people do. They got Tandy, who’s a Sherpa who’s summited Everest 14 times. They’ve got Bhavna who talks about gender equality, and what it is to be a powerful female in the pool. Santana, who is then a teacher entering the education system in the pool and wants to do her best for the kids. And then mingma, who talks about growing up in Katmandu, and becoming a teacher himself, but then also his perspective on on life in Nepal, from like, kind of a cool young guy who’s just pretty relaxed, completely different stories. And that’s just five. And he times that by 30. These students, when they go out into the working world, when they go into university, they don’t bat an eyelid at someone who’s gay, they don’t bat an eyelid who someone completely different race to them, or religion or creed or belief. They understand that you can speak with someone communicate well with someone and still disagree with them. You can eat at the same table as people that you don’t necessarily agree with the way they live their life. You might even think they’re morally wrong, let’s say but you can still talk with them, communicate with them, respect them, understand them, work alongside them. If you can do that, though, I believe there would be no war. I mean, that’s a really hopeful, optimistic picture. But you know,

27:45

well, I mean, it’s, it’s true. I mean, I think that the sooner we develop the innate empathy that we already have, instead of letting the muscle atrophy, atrophy, at a younger age, the better off are future leaders. And, you know, I hate to I hate to call kids future leaders, because they actually can be leaders right now. So, you know, in terms of the next generation of organizational leaders, whether it’s government or for profits, or social impact organizations, or just you know, community groups, the sooner we can help them just flex that muscle. So it’s, they don’t even have to think about it, the battery correctly, right. But

28:24

you’re right, I completely agree about the future leaders. And I agree, students are leaders now as well. But there is also a realization that we need the leaders that aren’t now to develop this. And we’ve started to do stuff with companies and I know that you are all over companies. And it will frustrate you as much as it will shake frustrate me that how you have to define empathy to these companies and how you have to explain it’s not something soft, it’s not something weak, but it’s actually increases productivity, all of the research is there to say that it will increase retention, it will increase your profit margins, it will increase your bottom line and not just increase your bottom line. It will make everyone feel happier, they’ll want to be at work, there’ll be less sick, sick days off, you will have a environment where people thrive, which is ultimately what we try to create a home for ourselves and what we want to create a work but we need the leaders of today to actually get on it because it’s no good just I think that’s the frustration with students in the UK if anyone follows UK politics watching this, they’ll understand that we’ve had I think I can’t even now think that three or four prime ministers this year, even though

29:35

it has been a little bit of a game of musical chairs there Yeah,

29:39

ridiculous and you’ve got the kids in school saying, Oh, well Boris Johnson are all Prime Minister he lied. Why isn’t he in jail? Yet we’re telling them to be more empathetic and be moral and talk about honesty and just and the leader the number one on person in the country apart from I guess the rules or whatever is lying and and is keeping their job. It’s just absurd. It’s just ridiculous. And so we need actually our leaders today to really follow in a life of integrity, a life of honesty, and put empathy there, and they don’t have a, there’s such a divide, you know, they don’t even have an understanding of what food costs. I was watching the news just tonight. And, you know, a firefight that we’re saying firefighters that are on 32,000 pounds a year, are using food banks. And this MP has said, That’s ridiculous. They need to budget better. straightaway, that MPs on a salary of 82 84,000 pounds plus all of their expenses for the day, you know, there’s just obviously an obvious comparison there, where there just as a complete lack of empathy, a complete lack of understanding and that wants to understand has that has that MP has that part parliamentary person even spoken to someone I think our society is craving for just honesty, empathy and integrity. And, and it’d be so powerful as well.

31:02

I think it’s also about the fact that we’ve become an it’s very true in the United States, but I feel it, I feel like I’m starting to see it in other developing countries as well. This move away from collectivism to individualism. And this idea that, I mean, when you talk about government, for example, I am not going to support any legislation that I myself will never have to use, versus understanding that there are people out there and you may never have to take advantage of that policy, or that law, or that organ, you know that that investment, but other people do. So it’s worth fighting for, especially if they’re your constituents, right? There’s this very, like, if that doesn’t impact me or mine, then it’s not important. It’s not priority. And we’ve got to start moving to this place where our leaders are thinking about things and trying to implement policies across, you know, government organizations that may not benefit them, but benefit other people because of the experiences of other people.

32:12

Yeah, selfless leadership. Yeah, I also think this is where film coming back to film, this is why films are powerful. Because I can show I can get a group of people together. And I do this in companies as well. And show them two or three films within a short space of time. And also film and arts, we can communicate very powerful, strong messages in a very short amount of time, if you’re if you’re good at storytelling. And within, you know, an hour, I could show four or five different people’s films and life stories to someone, and they can get those perspectives in a powerful way. Whereas if you were to do it in person, maybe someone’s got to travel. And I think there’s a scalability. So with empathy week, the design of it is to have a scalability, the perfect scenario would be I would pick up loads of kids and put them on a playing experience. They would experience like, playing for the first time, then they would get dropped in the middle of Katmandu this year,

33:10

if only the billionaires would spend money on that, instead of buying social media networks. That would be great, right?

33:16

Just charter charter, like this empathy exchange for everyone. Right, exactly. What do you remember about school or education or university? It’s all it’s not the day to day in the classroom learning. It’s that one day that someone came and spoke

33:30

to you, or this field trips or the trips? Yeah. And

33:34

what’s the first thing to go and a time like now where we’re facing recession? Trips, arts, culture, anything that is not necess? Necessary? Yes. For people listening I’m doing

33:48

right now. Yeah.

33:51

It’s, it’s crazy. Because, yeah, we just need, we just need to spend more time listening and listening, but not just listening, asking questions, because people just go listening, listening, listening, and listening is great. But unless you’re asking questions, you’re not having a conversation and you’re not learning. You’re just onboarding information. Right? The real understanding comes from when you do ask a question, because listening, you might not fully understand still, you can hear it, but you need to actually go. Okay, so you said you did this, but why did you do that? And I always say, with companies as well. agreeing with each other and disagreeing with each other stop, generally stop conversations. And people kind of get to disagree with one and they agree one. I didn’t really get what you mean. I say, Okay, well say you got meeting you need to make a decision. Someone comes in and says, right, this is what we’re going to do. And you go Yeah, no, great. That sounds awesome. Let’s do it. Six months down the line. You get to a point where like, Why? Why is that happened? That Oh, no, you’ve agreed this. And you realize that actually, that you can agree on something, but with completely different rationale and reasoning behind why you’re agreeing without explaining it. And we need to ask more questions, even if you’re agreeing with someone, especially in the workplace. Why? What’s your reasoning for what you’re trying to get out of that? Because we just assume that people understand or hear our thoughts and understand what we’re saying. And it’s not it’s not the case. And I think if we can lead with a bit more curiosity, that’d be amazing. I always say people always get it right. How do you develop empathy? You know, is that is the big thing, how, what’s the easiest way? And it’s always just about increasing number of experiences, and increasing the diversity of those experiences. And I say to people, if you do those two things, you won’t be going viral. Right, right. Right, just as simple as possible, increase the number and diversity of experience. The problem is, what what what does that require time? Sometimes money, time and access? Yeah. So it’s about how can we and I think that’s where films again, arts, things can come in and be so powerful was low cost scalable actions to really change the perspective and build empathy in people.

35:59

And to leverage them even within organizational teams and leverage film as a catalyst for discussion. I am part of the faculty of an organization called the Executive Institute on inclusion. And they put together custom bespoke dei programs for different groups. And what what holds it together is number one, the the fact that they use data that’s custom to that organization to show that organization exactly where they need to work on. But also they they partner with a company whose name is escaping me right now, to leverage film, especially with the executive team, to get them to crack open very difficult conversations that they’re not having about Dei. So instead of hitting them with all these statistics, and you should, and you must, and you need to have the show film, and then engage in a discussion. And that’s, you know, again, the power of film to be able to just it, it brings someone story to life for you, you get to see them in the situation that they’re in. So perhaps you can think about what might I be feeling in that situation? Or even like you’re saying, I didn’t even know that that was what that situation was like. Right? So now I have a new appreciation for your experience.

37:19

Yeah, what really humanizes every humanizes the workplace, right reminds people. Oh, yeah, no, I am a person. And this is actually my job. And I am actually designed to actually emotionally connect with people. And I think I think the amazing thing about film and the amazing thing about this, because you’re basically describing exactly what to do, right? And then right, and then start, watch what

37:45

happens. Start start the magic. Yeah,

37:46

you never know. And what you need to make sure that you have a good facilitator and someone to craft that conversation, right? Because it can be yes can come up, I’m doing a workshop at a conference and hamburgers creativity conference, I was there to talk about empathy. It was just after Russia invaded Ukraine, and we’re talking about empathy. And also and then all of a sudden, this young lady just kind of shared that she’s Ukrainian. And that she’d and it was it was I think it was a month after, and just the room went silent. And I think if had I not had my training experience and being a teacher, because teaching is facilitating thinking on your feet. I used to have kids throwing stuff, swearing this right that control. And you have to think on your feet. And I’m so glad I’ve had that training. And my heart, I feel like my real job is as a facilitator still, even today as a teacher. Yeah. And and being able to manage that situation. I didn’t really know what to do. But I could sense that she doesn’t, she didn’t want to question she just wanted to kind of put that but what she put across was that she had seen all Russians as evil from that day, hadn’t want to, hadn’t want to hadn’t wanted to engage with anyone to do with Russia. And then all of a sudden, she’d kind of watched this film. And it wasn’t to do with war either. And I think this is this is the point that I’m trying to make is that you can watch a film about something completely different. But you can get trained in that kind of perspective taking, and also the emotional empathy side of it, and building that. And then you can, you can, it’s like a blueprint, you can copy that onto a completely different social issue. Even if you haven’t talked about it and use those skills. Because empathy is a skill, you can train it and like you’re talking about it as a muscle. You can just build it and then all of a sudden you you catch yourself in another scenario or another situation you say, Hang on, I’m judging or I’m, I haven’t really asked any questions. I’m not curious. I don’t really know what’s going on. And this young lady was basically said, Yeah, I’ve now thought actually hang on. Maybe not all Russians are bad. Right. And that was that was you could just see in the audience like, wow, and that was it. And then she just wanted to say that she just kind of wanted to say that. I think that’s important as well. Not. Not everyone wants to open up. You know, I think that’s the fear in the corporate space. When you go in like, right, we’re going to talk about, you know, exactly. I see people go, Oh, melting. Yeah.

40:17

I love that. I love that. Well, empathy week starts February 27. Yes. 1023, just a couple of weeks from now. And how can schools and teachers engage? Where’s the best way for them to get involved?

40:33

Yeah, great. So the best place is empathy dash week.com. Then that across the page, there’s register, quite easy to do that. Anyone can also watch a film from last year. So there’s a bit called free. Even if your teacher Nottage anyone can if they sign up to our newsletter, then gets access to an amazing young woman’s story called leper from last year, who talks about the right to wear a hijab or her choice to wear the hijab and life as a semi professional footballer. And the moment that she switched from kind of being a young girl that didn’t wear one to get other than decided to wear one and racism that she, she suffered. But she’s got such an important story. And I think particularly with what everything that’s going on with Iran at the moment that we’re seeing there. Her story is even ever more important. And I think that’s again, a great thing to watch. So people can get involved that way as well. And, yeah, our website and and we’re on social media at empathy week on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter at the empathy week, and I am Ed Cohen, on all of them.

41:41

Yes. And we will have all your links in the show notes, as well as a link to the empathy week, the empathy week event, which I hope teachers, educators, parents, who want to bring this to their school will take this and show it to their school and to their teachers and their principals and, and really get involved. I think the more we can grow this movement, the better. I mean, and like you said, not just developing that skill of empathy, and kids aged five to 18, but also continuing to work on it as adults. And absolutely, I remember when I was researching my book, I interviewed a woman who runs a school where the empathy is baked into the curriculum. Y’all don’t know Java, of Golestan in Northern California. And I remember asking her if adults, she was one of my earliest interviews with the book. And I asked her can can adults who are not currently very empathetic, learn how to be empathetic? And she said yes, but it’s more of an active choice. They have to actually decide that that’s what they want their identity to be. And they can exercise it every day and build that muscle. And I just thought that was just a beautiful way to remember that it is actually is innate in us as human beings, but the muscle for whatever reason, environment upbringing, circumstance, that muscle may have atrophied. So there’s always a way to strengthen it if we really, really want to. So, Edie, thank you so much for your work and for what you’re doing in the world. And I want us to stay in touch because I want us to do more together. But thank you, and good luck with empathy Week this year, and we will have you back to find out how it went.

43:23

Amazing. Thanks so much for the opportunity to talk and yeah, I’d love to speak to other people that are interested. So do reach out.

43:29

Awesome. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. Please remember, if you liked what you heard, just share it with a friend or colleague. Don’t forget to rate and review of course, and until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind

When we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, or DEI, some leaders still roll their eyes or assume they have bigger fish to fry. But, happily, the trendline shows that companies that can move beyond diversity into true inclusivity experience sustained growth, higher performance, and more revenue. They are the ones harnessing more innovation, attracting top talent, getting more ideas and innovation from their people, and frankly, making smarter business decisions.

Today, I talk to Gianna Driver about how DEI efforts support organizational goals and the link between DEI efforts and bottom-line performance. She shares how a company can make the leap from a diverse culture to a truly inclusive one in order to better enjoy those benefits. Gianna shares the ground rules you need to set to make DEI work, and how to be empathetic to – yet manage executive resistance to change. And we talk about her personal story growing up Filipino-American and how it shaped her passion for empowering people.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

 Key Takeaways:

• People are at the heart and center of everything you do. If you are trying to make a change in your organization, you need to remember that.
• Healthy relationships have conflict. What matters is not the existence of conflict, but how individuals resolve conflict; the same is true of organizations.
• We do not leave our humanity at the door when we come to work. Employees need to be treated as humans with respect and multiple facets of their lives. When employees thrive, they bring their best selves to work and have higher performance as a result.

“Conflict is necessary for high performance and innovation. What differentiates are those organizations who have found ways to create spaces where people can respectfully and healthfully disagree and come up with better solutions together.” —  Gianna Driver

About Gianna Driver, CHRO, Exabeam

Gianna Driver is Chief Human Resources Officer (CHRO) at Exabeam, a global cybersecurity leader that adds intelligence to every IT and security stack. As CHRO, Driver manages the strategy and processes related to building, investing in, and retaining top talent at Exabeam, enabling employees to do their best work. She is responsible for architecting the company’s talent strategy, driving corporate culture and diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) initiatives, and leading the global human resources function. Prior to Exabeam, Driver was the Chief People Officer at BlueVine, a private fin-tech company based in Redwood City, CA. Driver has also led HR and People functions in high-growth technology, gaming, consumer, and SaaS organizations including Playstudios, Aristocrat, Actian Corporation, Talend, and Balsam Brands. She is passionate about building high-performance cultures, establishing operational excellence, and creating joy at work. Driver is a graduate of The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania.

References Mentioned:

The Empathy Edge podcast: M.E. Hart: How to Have Honest Conversations at Work

Connect with Gianna Driver:

Website: https://exabeam.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gianna-driver-6183391/

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

When we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion or Dei, some leaders still roll their eyes or assume they have bigger fish to fry. But happily, the trend line shows the companies that can move beyond diversity into true inclusivity experience sustained growth, higher performance and more revenue. They’re the ones harnessing more innovation, attracting top talent, getting more ideas and innovation from their people, and frankly, making smarter business decisions. And as we all know, empathy is the fuel that makes Diversity Equity and Inclusion work. Gianna driver is Chief Human Resources Officer or Chr. O at Exabeam, a global cybersecurity leader that adds intelligence to every IT and security stack. She manages the strategy and processes related to building investing in and retaining top talent at Exabeam. enabling employees to do their best work. She’s responsible for architecting the company’s talent strategy, driving corporate culture and dei initiatives and leading the global human resources function. Gianna has done this work for many companies in the tech space and speaks to the strategic shift top performing leaders have made in recent decades. Today we talk about how DEI efforts support organizational goals and the line between DEI efforts and bottom line performance. She shares how a company can make the leap from a diverse culture to a truly inclusive one in order to better enjoy those benefits. Gianna shares the ground rules you need to set to make dei work and how to be empathetic to yet manage executive resistance to change. And we talk about her personal story growing up Filipino American and how it shaped her passion for empowering people. Take a listen.

02:05

Welcome Gianna driver to the empathy edge podcast. I have been looking forward to this conversation with you for a while to talk about all the great work you do in terms of culture, diversity and inclusion and help our listeners understand how to connect those dots and connect it to performance. So welcome.

02:24

Thanks, Maria. I’m super excited to be here. Okay, so

Maria Ross  02:27

let’s start off first with your story. How did you get into this work? You were at your Chr? Oh, four Exabeam. You’ve worked at several other companies as a head of HR as a head of people as a head of culture. How did you get into that work? Tell us a little bit about your story.

Gianna Driver  02:46

Yeah, well, you know, I didn’t grow up wanting to be a Chr. Ro.

02:50

We knew what those acronyms met. Yeah,

02:54

that’s so true. Yeah. And so my story begins in a small town in East Texas. My mother immigrated as a mail order bride from Manila in the Philippines. Oh, my dad was a cattle farmer rancher, in very small towns in East Texas. And unbeknownst to me, I think the seeds of HR were sown very early in life. You know, I grew up primarily with my mom, but also regularly saw my dad. And we were an uneducated family. And I remember with my mother growing up in the shelter you your your privy to lots of heartache and lots of stress and you know, call it the underdog, for lack of a better term. Well, fast forward, I ended up going to college university and going to the Wharton School. And that juxtaposition from my roots to Wharton were incredibly, incredibly Stark and pronounced. And what I realized now in reflection that I didn’t realize then is that the seeds of a career in HR had been planted and cultivated meaning one of the things that really resonates with me today and why I love doing HR is because I get to help organizations help people, people like my mom, like my dad, like my family, but at the same time, we are also working on business outcomes and achieving, you know, the overall goals that our business exists to solve. And it’s that marriage between the two, the human out element and also the business side of things that gets me really excited. So Little did I know my career started as a little girl. I love it.

04:47

And also just that exposure to diversity and inclusion and although the lessons both good and bad from that experience are so profound, and I love the fact that you know what we’re going to talk about today which I’ve thought felt this way for a long time. And it’s why I always demand when I do my brand strategy engagements, for example, that someone from HR or culture or people be part of the process, because when are we going to learn that our companies are collections of people, and that without the people, we don’t achieve any business outcome, we don’t achieve any growth goal. And so really seeing HR not as like, the form fillers, right, or the benefits people, but seeing HR as a strategic lever for growth. Exactly where business goals like it, it sounds like you’ve been lucky enough to work for organizations that get that.

05:39

Thankfully, yes, yes. You know, and that’s what attracts me to organizations like exa beam, right, because people are at the heart and center of what we do.

05:49

Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about whether it’s x beams goals or other goals of companies that you’ve worked with how diversity, equity and inclusion efforts support those goals, meaning how do you as, as the leader of HR, draw that line for executives, and for the rest of the company of how these initiatives lead to growth, success? Profits, revenue, all the things? Huh,

06:18

yeah, great question. Well, so I’ll start with I think, thankfully, you’d be hard pressed to find a leader who would say diversity is bad. Right? So so that that is progress, relative to 2030 years ago. So we’re like, that’s, that’s huge. And we aren’t we are moving in the right direction. But I think you’re also correct in that some business leaders need the the the lines to be drawn between why diverse and inclusive companies make for better businesses and better organizations. And so I point to several things when I’m having these conversations. One of those is to look at some of the recent studies by McKinsey and some of the other consulting firms. Harvard has a study on this as well, that show organizations who are more diverse, meaning they’ve got larger percentages of not just gender diversity, but also ethnic and other types of diversity. Those organizations outperform and have higher valuations than their peer companies who are less diverse. So when you look at a lot of the data and the stats out there, you know, it reinforces that diverse business is better business. But then I also specific to, to Exabeam. And into cybersecurity, a conversation that we had recently was around neurodiversity. Specifically, yes, you know, we were talking about how we need more diverse people at our company, because we want people who think differently, we don’t want we’re solving big problems in the world, we’re making the world a safer place. We are outsmarting hackers, and you know, people who are attempting, you know, phishing attacks and malware attacks and things like that those folks are thinking outside of the box, those folks are thinking differently, it is imperative to our long term success, that we have people who think outside of the box as well helping us solve these problems and get right. And so when you’re able to engage in these types of conversations, there is that, oh, yeah, like I should care about diversity, not just because I want to have better dei statistics, but because it’s actually really good business. And it’s what’s going to differentiate and allow us to win in the future.

08:33

I love that. And I love that you’re bringing that in because as someone who survived a brain injury years ago, neurodiversity is very important to me, and something that I see. And you know, my heart is warmed when I read about these companies that understand the value of bringing in autistic individuals, for example, because the way they solve problems and how they even the the angle within the prism of the problem that they’re looking at is very different. And it can expose blind spots. And so I love hearing those stories about about understanding that when we’re talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, this is something I’m trying to educate my son’s school about. It’s not just about gender or ethnicity. Yes, it’s about physical ability. It’s about neuro diversity. It’s about all these other things that make us different. So and I had never connected that dot between cybersecurity and neuro diversity and it makes complete sense.

09:32

Well as a mother to a neuro atypical child, you know, these are, these are topics that are also very near and dear to me, because I see in my my daughter, Abigail, who has dyslexia, that, yes, she does process the world differently. She does think differently, and that’s a gift. There are challenges with that, but I also think it’s a gift and so I get excited thinking about creating an organization where people like her are welcome and wanted and valued. I love

10:01

that for one moment to another like, that’s why I wrote the empathy edge was I wanted to create a world that was more empathetic for my son. And for him to be exposed to leaders, when he was very young, the lessons I was trying to teach him about collaboration and empathy and sharing and kindness. I didn’t want those lessons to be just lessons he had when he was little, and then he was gonna go enter this horrible world of business or anything, you know. So I think we both are driven by the same by the same pieces of our heart. So let’s talk a little bit about diversity and inclusion. Because I find that there’s, there’s so much misunderstanding, they’re often used together, D and I, you know, D and I, D. And I explained to us the difference, because I think people can get their arms around diversity in terms of a checklist or a pie chart of different people in the organization. But the concept of inclusivity is a little bit more elusive to them in terms of how they can take steps to create a more inclusive environment. So talk to us a little bit about that.

11:05

Yeah, you know, a metaphor that I heard recently that that resonated about this difference was diversity is being asked to the party inclusion is being asked to dance. I love that. Right? Because, you know, I think, applying this to business contexts, diversity can mean checking the box around, do we have ethnic, gender, religious, socioeconomic? Do we have all of these different types of folks in our organization, so that can help quote unquote, check the diversity box, but true inclusion is, how involved do those individuals feel at the company? How engaged are they? How much do they feel? They matter? How valued Do they feel? Do they feel that their voice is something that is honored in the organization, and so that is true inclusion? So diversity is merely having the folks who be a part of the organization, inclusion and belonging is are these individuals valued, engaged, excited parts of our organization. And I would say companies that succeed at being diverse, but not at being inclusive, start to see a revolving door of diversity, because what will happen long term is yes, they may have diverse groups, and you know, underrepresented minorities inside the org. But if those folks don’t truly belong, and feel a sense of inclusion, they’ll attract, they will tap out. And then you’ve got, you know, the diverse folks that you want in the organization, you’ve got them voluntarily leaving, which is which is problematic

12:50

100%. And that’s something that, you know, if you want to hold on to those people, it’s it’s one thing to invite the diverse perspectives and experiences to the party. It’s another to actually hear those diverse experiences and perspectives and do something with that information. And I came across, you’ve probably seen this data before, I think it was from Deloitte, when I was researching my book a few years ago, talking about the fact that, you know, Gen Z, in particular, is one of the most diverse generations we have entering the workforce. And they are looking beyond the pie chart and the checklist they actually want to see before they will sign on with a company. How is that company harnessing the different perspectives to make better business decisions? They’re actually equating it to the company’s ability to make smart decisions. And that is a factor for them in terms of accepting the job or not? Yes, when we’re talking about accepting top talent, you know, you’re not going to attract those people. If and one generational expert I spoke to, for the book even went so far as to say the companies that don’t get that will not be in existence anymore, because all that top talent will go to their competitors. I concur. Yeah, I absolutely.

14:00

And, you know, I think that’s a beautiful reality of the market norms. I am excited that this new crop of working professional, the Gen Z years are coming in, they’re so values oriented, they are demanding that companies truly have diversity statements, senses, you know, like, a sense of belonging and, you know, for all of the the underrepresented minority groups, I think that’s a beautiful thing. I think it’s a wonderful forcing function for organizations.

14:28

It’s amazing. And I, you know, I even look back as being a Gen XOR. You know, I remember being on the Diversity Committee when I was a management consultant. And when did that actually mean, right? And for us, it stopped at the, at that point in time, and then in the early 90s, it stopped at the like, do we have these people in the organization? Are they part of the pipeline? Yep. Now what I love is that that these folks are much savvier than I was when I was leaving college, and that they’re going but but I want to know that the company Make smart business decisions and they can’t make smart business decisions if everyone in the executive team or on the board looks and sounds alike, like they just they’re seeing everything from the same lens they can’t possibly make the smartest decision they could make

15:16

all and this is why representation matters. Right? Like it is very, very important that we have individuals leading companies who look differently think differently process the world differently. I will say implied in diversity is also conflict, right? And I’ve seen this in organizations, because when you have individuals who are passionate, and they’re excited, and they’re motivated, and they process and view the world differently, there will be disagreements,

15:47

or clash for sure. And we need to be uncomfortable. We need to be comfortable with the discomfort. Yes, that brings us

15:53

right. And I think that having a healthy way of engaging in meaningful conflict is really important, because conflict can be a very healthy thing. I would say conflict is necessary to high performance and innovation. Yes, absolutely. And what differentiates are those organizations who have found ways to create spaces in environments where people can respectfully and healthfully disagree and come up with better solutions together.

16:22

It’s kind of like a marriage where if somebody says, Oh, we never fight, so we have a really healthy marriage, that doesn’t necessarily mean you have a really healthy marriage, it might mean that you’re swallowing the conflict, and you’re not dealing with the conflict, or you’re avoiding it or you’re passive aggressive.

16:37

And so it’s like the Gottman Institute and the Love Lab that they do. Yes, yes, healthy relationships have conflict. What matters is not the existence of conflict, but how individuals resolve conflict. And I would say the same is true of organizations.

16:51

I love that. And I’m actually going to put a link to a prior guest, we had me Hart, who’s a dei consultant, because we did a whole episode about having on how to have honest conversations at work. And his point was exactly this, that we need to instead of running from the honest conversations, we need to just get better and improve on being able to be in the discomfort. Yeah, and see where that leads, yes, growth occurs outside of the comfort zone, for sure. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about, you know, we’ve talked about the difference between diversity and inclusion. So I’m an executive listening to this podcast, I’m fully on board, we’ve done a good job in our company with with getting diverse representation, but I’m not really sure if we actually have an inclusive environment. And this is something I’m working on with my son’s school, for example, we can’t just send out a survey that says, Do you feel that we have an inclusive environment and that you belong? Right? So how does a company culture take that leap? What are the things they should be looking for to assess? inclusivity? And also, what can they do to boost inclusivity? What are some of the actions they can take? And I think you’ve also talked about the ground rules to set in culture. And so it’s kind of all wrapped up in the same question. But let’s get to the, you know, what, what folks can do and what they should be looking for?

18:20

Mm hmm. Totally? Well, so in terms of what what people can do, and what what leaders and organizations can can focus on, you know, I think part of this starts by awareness building and training. And yes, there’s, there’s as a baseline things like, unconscious, unconscious bias, and, you know, awareness there. And you know, that’s actually a really huge umbrella when you think about unconscious bias that shows up in all different shapes and forms. And it’s important that everyone in the organization go through a lot of these educational types of workshops and series, because that’s what’s going to allow folks to have a common way of talking about and framing these we need a common language as we talk talk about these topics. And that’s where some of the leadership, development and training modules can be super, super helpful. So I think it starts by that number one. One of the other things that we do here at Exabeam, that’s been really helpful is we have employee resource groups throughout the organization. And so these are groups of like minded individuals, groups who share something in common and or are an ally about whatever the cause is, that is at the center of that employee resource group, or ERG for short. And what we found is these groups allow folks to feel a sense of belonging and feel they have a safe place in the organization to express and to shout and to celebrate and to be themselves and then what we do and we’re making various different decisions and it could be small decision These are bigger decisions, we actively seek out and engage those ERGs. We want to have their thoughts and their opinions. As we’re crafting and making decisions. It’s not just after the fact right matters, we want to involve them in, in the conversation. And then And then lastly, I do think it’s important to look at data. And as someone in in the the HR space, there’s this exciting area in our, in our HR industry called people analytics that is getting a lot of airtime right now. And as that pertains to diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, we like to look at things like not just do we have these diverse folks, you know, represented in the organization. But when we do our surveys, we look at, okay, how engaged are they? When we look at promotions across the organization? are we promoting people across the entire org, not just folks who were part of certain categories are profiles of individuals, same thing when it comes to raises. Also, let’s look at our attrition data. Are we disproportionately losing people who are in certain underrepresented groups? And if so, like, let’s let’s lean into that and really start to understand, are they leaving because they don’t feel safe? Are they leaving because they don’t feel welcome? Thankfully, that’s not been the case here. But these are the some of the processes that we go through to really understand how we’re doing on these fronts.

21:22

Well, and I think it’s interesting, because I do think you have to be very careful when you’re even designing a survey to start figuring out what’s going on, because you can actually do more harm than good with your survey questions. This is something I was working on with my son’s school is that we, we might do more harm than good if we just throw a question in someone’s face that they might be offended by or feel threatened by. So there’s all I love what you’re saying in terms of looking at all these other areas like attrition like promotions, potentially even you know, are they do they feel comfortable attending employee events, or, you know, social events that the company might put on? So trying to get at the question of comfort and belonging from a safer place. And so that’s why I think it behooves many executives who might be wading into this without the prior skills to work with a professional that’s that’s crafted these kinds of surveys before, and I’m sure you’ve worked with many people like that, and you probably can craft your own at this point. But that’s just like the caveat I would give to folks listening is that if it were that easy to just ask people if they feel comfortable or not, yeah, no, you’re doing it right. But But if someone doesn’t feel like they belong, and they don’t feel comfortable, they’re never going to be honest with their answers. And so you might get data back that tells you you don’t have a problem when you actually do. Yeah, right.

22:45

Exactly. Right. Yep. The way in which the questions are asked has a lot to do with the authenticity and integrity of the data. 100% agree.

22:55

So what So given your your vast experience in leadership, around HR around people around culture, as we kind of wrap up this conversation? What are the trend lines that you’re seeing in real life? You know, not from research, or data or consulting reports? But your experience working in organizations? What, what conversations with executives are getting easier? What aspects Do you think that they are more aware of than they used to be? Can you just give us an example of, of the growth you’re seeing in terms of of leaders wanting to pay attention to their people in the organization? Because I’m sure from when, you know, same thing from when I way back when I started, way back when you started? Yeah, what has been some of the really surprising and delightful shifts you’ve seen occur?

23:43

Yeah. Well, there’s a ton more awareness and consciousness about these topics, which is, which is huge. I also think as painful as the great resignation has been for many organizations, it was also a bit of a wake up call, because we had executives across all different industries in different sizes of companies who were saying, Oh, my goodness, why am I losing all of these people? And what can I do to retain and keep the talent that we have? And I would add on to this, what I’ve seen recently, which is, I think a very beautiful thing is that boards are now asking for not just product roadmaps and a pipeline summary of, you know, sales projections and all this other stuff, but they’re also asking for that in the context of people and in the context of diversity. And I think it’s wonderful because you have a rising tide that raises all ships. And so, you know, this isn’t a here is the silver bullet one, you know, one stop shop solution, but it’s all of these things working in partnership. Plus also to your earlier point about the Gen Zers who are joining the workforce and they are demanding that companies live, what they what they espouse And that’s that’s done wonders. And so we are seeing a groundswell of engagements of enthusiasm, and a true passion for being more diverse, but also being more

25:10

inclusive. Right. And I see it just as a shift to being to bring more humanity back to work. Yeah, understanding that we don’t park our humanity at the door, when we come to the office, or the virtual office, or whatever it is, that whatever we’re dealing with in our lives, whether it’s mental health challenges, or micro aggressions, or whatever it is, that impacts our ability to innovate, to create, to collaborate to perform, if you’ve got all these distractions on your people, rather than helping them stay focused on the work you hired them to do. You need to actually look at, you know, how are we treating our people? How do our people feel? And I love that, you know, and you could probably attest to this, too, you know, early in my career, you know, emotions in your personal life had no place at all, yes, no, you’re right. It’s not that we’re trying to create this world where everyone’s you know, crying on the floor at the office, we still need to get work done. But this idea of like, looking out for each other and saying, you know, hey, if someone is someone, okay, is someone not? Okay? How can we make things better for that person, so that in the end, we can get, we can get there, their full value of what they can contribute. And if they feel like they thrive, they’re going to, they’re going to be more loyal to us, they’re going to innovate more, they’re going to perform better. So it’s just this pylon effect. Now I have a

26:31

and I, that’s a beautiful part of this moment in our in our history is that you’re right, early in my career, there was this sense of, Well, you can’t, you can’t really bring your life outside of work into work, right? Like, you got to drop out of the door on your way in, and now you’re a professional, and it’s, you know, like, you’re serious, we got to get work done, etc, etc. Well, in the last 10 or so years, there’s been this beautiful shift and change where leaders and organizations realize, oh, wait, there’s the whole human, it’s about integrating all of these different parts of who we are. And actually, I think the pandemic, if there was a positive thing to come with the pandemic, I think one of those is it really showed us. Wow, okay, there’s this intersection of being, you know, parents and partners and having, you know, live all smushed together in our living room. Right, because we, we had to show more of our outside, you know, personal life to our colleagues, because, you know, we were we were in everyone’s bedrooms and living.

27:37

Exactly, exactly. I mean, I feel like it really accelerated. I know, for me, it accelerated the conversation around empathy. But I think it accelerated the conversation about like, again, humanity at work. I agree. So I do have one last question. Do you have any fear that that will snap back? Or do you think that that’s a mindset shift that will stick? If you know, once we get hopefully soon, someday we get beyond the pandemic? Yeah, we move beyond this? Is there any concern you have that that is just a flash in the pan, given the time we’re in? Or do you think that that mindset shift will stick?

28:11

I think the trendline, the trendline and the macro economics are such that this is here to stay on? Right? I was hoping you’d say that. Yeah. Organizations be more inclusive and diverse and having, you know, a greater awareness and sense of, you know, creating spaces where people can really thrive and be who they are. I think that that’s here to say, to stay. I will caveat, though, and say, remember, the path to progress is not linear. And so while I do believe very strongly that the macro trend line is is a positive one, I do think yes, there will be moments of setback there will be moments where, you know, there are leaders who who stumble and who may organizations who have policies that are not the most inclusive or whatnot. But I would say that, that’s okay, let’s point those things out. Let’s be forgiving, let’s have grace. And then ultimately, let’s also hold our leaders and organizations accountable. And you know, I do think because of the Gen Z ers and others entering the workforce, I think they’re helping to make sure the stays.

29:21

I love it. I love it. Yeah, I mean, I think just like all humans, we don’t like change. And even if someone is kind of being dragged along on a change, they may revert back to something they’re more comfortable with, especially our senior leaders who I have a lot of empathy for, because I’ve talked about this on the show before, where they’ve spent decades operating in a certain way because of the rules they were given. Yeah, and then now all of a sudden, it’s like, all bets are off. You know, we’re not we’re bringing our personal selves to work. And we’re this and we’re that and I know it’s jarring for them, because they these habits got so entrenched for them for so long because that’s what they were indoctrinated in.

29:59

Totally That’s how they got to where they are. Right? Well, in one of the conversations that I have with leaders who have that sentiment is, we can embrace diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, we can be champions and allies. And that is not to the detriment of those in privilege, right, like we’re able to do a better job at being inclusive. And also continue to have the in value, the contributions of those who are in privileged, this isn’t zero sum. And you know, folks taking pie from each other. Let’s grow the pie and share the pie with everybody.

30:41

I love that. Let’s leave that there, then. Thank you so much, Gianna, for your insights today. And for the work that you do. We’ll have all your links in the show notes. But where can folks most easily connect with you? Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place. Great, great. And we will put that in the show notes link. So thank you for your time today.

30:59

Awesome. Thanks, Maria. It was great. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked it, please share it with your friends or colleagues. And until next time, and our next wonderful guest. Please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

If you ask everyone on your team if they know why your company exists, what would they say? And no, “to make money” just won’t cut it these days. You might not think such existential ponderings have a place when you’re fighting fires, closing deals, and growing the business – but nothing could be more important to your organization’s long-term success. Today, we talk with Denise Roberson, who shares her work and research showing that organizations with clear, actionable purposes enjoy many tangible and intangible benefits – profit and longevity being among the most impressive.

Today, we talk about what a Chief Purpose Officer does, and we parse out the word salad of purpose, vision, and mission so you have a better understanding on how they all work together. She shares examples from market leaders Unilever and others who are measuring the value and impact of purpose in more accurate ways. We also talk about big mistakes Boards and leaders make when thinking about purpose and what you can do to get maximum benefit instead.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• While vision, mission, and purpose all have different meanings, what is most important is that, within your organization, you are all working with the same vocabulary and all understand what you are talking about and what is most important. 
• Purpose is important for every aspect of business: employees, investors, consumers, customers, and management. 
• Empathy and purpose are important to every company, whether 100 or 100,000 employees. It makes a difference, it gives a business edge, and it is good for the world. 

“Purpose has now become a really powerful operating system that goes across the top of the organization. It’s a great uniter: It’s got this juicy business case that helps attract top talent, reduce turnover, and protects against risks.” —  Denise Roberson 

About Denise Roberson, Chief Purpose Officer, Omnicom TBWA

In her role as the first-ever Chief Purpose Officer in the Omnicom and TBWA network, Denise is leading some of the biggest brands in the world to actuate their business case for purpose, through focusing on a scalable, differentiated, and business goals oriented approach.  In this capacity, Denise is helping companies connect their brands to value and purpose, and using this unified strategy to create 21st-century value and growth across the entire stakeholder wheel.  TBWA was named one of the World’s Most Innovative Companies by Fast Company and has worked with Fortune 500 and world-class brands around the globe such as Apple, Gatorade, Google, McDonalds, Intuit, Principal Financial Group, and the Grammy’s.

Denise is also serving as a marketing professor for Pepperdine University’s Presidents & Key Executives MBA program and has served in a board role for a number of for-profit and not-for-profit organizations.

Resources Mentioned: 

Five Mistakes Boards Make When Thinking About Purpose, by Afdhel Aziz, Forbes CMO Council

Connect with Denise Roberson:

Website: https://tbwa.com/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deniseroberson/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/denise.roberson.129 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deniseroberson_purpose/ 

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

If you ask everyone on your team if they know why your company exists, what would they say? And know to make money just won’t cut it these days. You might not think such existential ponderings have a place when you’re fighting fires, closing deals and growing the business. But nothing could be more important to your organization’s long term success. Today we talk with Denise Roberson, who shares her work and research showing that organizations with clear actionable purposes enjoy many tangible and intangible benefits, profit and longevity being among the most impressive in her role as the first ever Chief purpose officer in the Omnicom and TBWA network. Denise is leading some of the biggest brands in the world to actuate their business case for purpose through focusing on a scalable, differentiated and business goals oriented approach. She’s helping companies connect their brands to value and purpose. And using this unified strategy to create 21st century value and growth across all stakeholders. TBWA was named one of the world’s most innovative companies by Fast Company and has worked with Fortune 500 and world class brands around the globe, such as Apple Gatorade, Google McDonald’s into it, Principal Financial Group and the Grammys. Denise is also a marketing professor for Pepperdine University’s presidents and key executives MBA program, and is served in a board role for a number of for profit and not for profit organizations. Today we talk about what the heck a chief purpose officer does, we parse out the word salad of purpose, vision and mission, so you have a better understanding of how they all work together. She shares examples from market leaders, like Unilever and others who are measuring the value and impact of purpose in more accurate ways. And we talk about big mistakes boards and leaders make when thinking about purpose, and what you can do to get maximum benefit instead, take a listen.

Maria Ross  02:35

Welcome, Denise to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so excited to have you on this has been a little while in the making. But I’m so excited to talk about purpose, and your work with TBWA. And your work with clients and your work on helping companies create brands that mean something.

Denise Roberson  02:53

Oh, thank you, Maria. I’ve been excited and waiting for the day. I think we have so many points of intersection. It’s become incredible. So finally, we get to have this conversation.

03:03

I love it. I love it. So let’s start off real quickly you our chief purpose officer for Omni comms purpose collective and TBWA. Yes, for folks that are fuzzy on what that actually means and what you actually do. What does what’s the role of a chief purpose officer? Because not every organization is lucky enough to have one?

03:22

No, the role was actually made for me almost three years ago now. And it’s interesting because I still have people in our organization that are like, what do you actually do. And what I actually do is I go in mostly with the C suite and board of directors and I help them create their business case for purpose. So a lot of folks that are of a certain demographic, they didn’t come up the ranks in business with purpose. So there are a lot of preconceived notions of what it is, you know, it’s soft and fuzzy, it’s getting hit with a pretty stick. It’s all these things. But we all know in 2020, to post the events of 2020, it’s now become a really powerful operating system that goes across the top of the organization. It’s a great uniter, it’s got this juicy business case, that helps attract top talent, it helps reduce employee turnover, it helps protect against risks. So I always like to think of purpose as two halves to a hole, you have risk on one side, and growth and innovation on the other. So we really try and tap into those two or three spheres of influence, and develop the best business case we can specifically for the organization. So that’s where I spend my days.

04:39

Oh my gosh, I love it. Now do you do this for clients as well? Or is this just internal? No, I

04:44

mostly work on the client side. And I get lucky sometimes and get to do this internally for our own organization. But this is done a lot through our various clients. So it’s wonderful because I get to touch so many different industries and sectors and what you get To see time and time again is that they’re more alike than they are different.

05:04

Mm hmm. And what are what are some of the misconceptions about purpose? Because I imagine you probably get a lot of deer in the headlights stares when you start talking about purpose. And people going well, I don’t know, is that just like, an inspirational vision statement? Is that, you know, how do you go about helping them understand what purpose actually is? Tell us?

05:26

I think by deconstructing it, really looking at where its source of power lies. It’s a great uniter, it’s a great activator. McKenzie did a fantastic piece of research, looking at what they refer to as the purpose gap. And what they identified is over 80%, of vice presidents and above firmly believe they get their purpose at work. Well, unfortunately, 80% and above of mid level managers and frontline workers firmly believe they do not get their purpose of work. So it really sort of an earth why a lot of people don’t feel like they’re getting that it’s because it’s not getting out to the furthest ends of the organization. So we have to spend a lot of time and energy figuring out how do we activate and meet employees where they are? Then we broaden that sphere, how do we meet stakeholders where they are? How do we meet investors, where they are? How do we meet customers where they are, and really start to use this purpose as a unifying lens by which all these organizations can start making really key critical decisions to the business. And it’s fascinating what starts to happen when you hold that lens up. Because all of a sudden, a lot of organizations have this gut instinct that they have to respond to everything. No, you don’t. You don’t have to respond to everything. And as a matter of fact, if it’s not part of your core, not part of your purpose, I would suggest potentially not, and maybe holding back and really focusing your time, energy and effort, where you show up how you show up when you show up through your purpose. And it starts to anchor things.

07:05

And do you think the language actually matters? Because you know, people throw around things like I mean, for me, for example, with my brand strategy and brand story clients, we talk about vision and mission. And really, vision is the what’s the future state that we’re here for what I actually tried to define it as, what’s the future state that could potentially put us out of business right day that if it was achieved, you no longer need our company? Right? And that’s where that gets a little scary. But does it matter what it’s called in the organization? If it’s called vision or mission or purpose? I’d love to know if that yeah, that nomenclature makes a difference.

07:39

I think we’re having a lexicon nightmare right now. And people are using words interchangeably that aren’t interchangeable. So one of the things I always do is ask if they use a word, what does that mean to you? So all here things like ESG and purpose be swapped out. Sustainability gets swapped out all of these words start, you know, mission and purpose are swapped out. And I don’t think that anyone’s necessarily absolutely right or absolutely wrong, because we don’t have these universal definitions. But I do think it’s very important that you’re speaking the same language. So clearly delineating what you mean, when you say those words, especially with any client, and as a client is speaking to their key stakeholders. Everyone has to understand what they mean when they’re using those words. So I think it is important because the way I see purpose, purpose is the strategic operating system that goes across the arc. It’s the umbrella concept, and things like ESG and sustainability and Dei, they hang on to that purpose. Right. So all of a sudden, we’re starting to create these layers and how they connect together matters.

08:48

Exactly. And when we you know, we talk about brand architecture, that’s where I try to get them to, you know, that’s actually not a mission statement. That’s a vision statement, a mission statement is more about the actions that you take every day in support of the vision. So I think it’s I think you’re right, it’s absolutely about can everyone internally at least come to an agreement about how we’re using these words and what they mean to us. And maybe you have another word for it, maybe it’s not purpose, maybe it’s our philosophy or a credo or whatever it’s called. But it’s the important thing you’re saying is they need to have it, they need

09:18

to have it, they need to understand what it is and how it applies to them. Specifically, I have clients that are allergic to the word purpose, you say the word, they’re immediately going to check out on you because they’ve had some negative experience and they can’t get past it. So we use other words, we just figure out how to define what we’re talking about, and that’s the word we’ll use. But if you look at the epicenter of purpose, this is over oversimplified, but it really gets to the why question. Why does the company exist? Sometimes it has to do with the founders story. There’s usually a really deep rooted explanation as to why the world would miss that or organization if they work no longer to exist. So the why is usually what we start as the epicenter and start moving out those concentric rings to build that in a meaningful way.

10:11

Well, I love this conversation, because I have a lot of clients in tech and a lot of startup clients where the company started by a technologist who just had a really cool idea for how to make something work better. And they struggle with this whole mission vision thing, because they’re like, but I don’t get it. It’s just there was this problem, and we created this piece of technology to solve it. We don’t think there’s any other story to it than that, oh, there’s

10:32

always more story to it.

10:33

Exactly. So tell us about that.

10:36

It’s part of you know, if you think about an onion and peeling back those layers, if you get a client like that, that genuinely believes we just did this, because it was the right thing to do. If we can make money doing it, we can make money doing that. Well, if you would like to have employees in the next 10 years, they care a whole lot. This next generation, we have five generations in the workforce right now. Yes, and the upcoming generations care a lot. salary isn’t number one, it’s not even two or three, it’s down at like five. So that’s usually compelling reason. Think about having employees and your well being and their turnover and their tenure with your organization. So we’ve got all those interesting facts. And then we look at the sustainability of an organization if we want a sustainable organization, and I don’t mean it being you know, kind to the environment. But if we want it to have longevity, and we want it to be here, it’s one of the cornerstones. So another facet, you know, it’s good for the company, this is good business. And we’ve got a lot of rich data from our friends in academia, and I sit on both sides of the hall. So I’ve got a lot of academic threads that have rigorous and robust research. And then we’ve got our consultants that have done some phenomenal things. And we now have a trend line, that’s pretty hard to debate. It’s, if someone now asks me to debate, the business case, I’m like, oh, yeah, I will, I’m happy to that’s the academic and male, gladly play both sides. And take your argument, and try and you know, kind of 360 find my way all the way around. But it’s so rich, it’s so detailed. It’s so deep now from every one of our key stakeholders, right? It’s kind of hard to say it frivolous, or it’s a law center, or some of these things I hear all the time.

12:31

Well, I think that’s part of the the job of, of those of us that are brand shepherds or communicators is to help give them the words because I find it’s not. Once I pull the story out of them, then I can articulate a vision and a mission a purpose, and it resonates with them. But they were not able to find those words themselves, right. And it’s just, I am convinced of the power of being able to articulate an idea because that’s what people can get behind. That’s the story behind stories

13:02

are the great thing throughout the ages that have united people and connected them and good storytelling is where this lives on in perpetuity. So super important.

13:13

Well, and not to mention, you know, you were talking about employees, which a lot of the research for the empathy edge was around that about millennials who are now in their 40s but and Gen Z coming behind them, how they’re not putting up with the same crap no put up with when we were coming up. Right. And I have always said this, for folks that have been listening for a while they’ve heard me say this ad nauseam. I’m like good on them. Because it makes it better for all of us that they’re just asking for the things we were too scared of exactly. We think we had the right, exactly ask for. And so not only that, but the idea of what consumers are demanding, whether it’s b2b or b2c, it makes no doubt their their purchase decisions, say something about them, they do. And they want to become part of communities that are aligned with their values, whatever those values are. So if you have that purpose, it stands to reason that you’re putting up the flag. Yeah, of this is this is who we are. If you know, if you’re I always say if you’re down with this, come work with us, come partner with us come buy from us,

14:12

right? And I would put investors on that list. Now. Yeah, we are seeing investors vote with their dollars. And we’ve never seen an explosion of ESG activity, purpose driven activity like we have in the markets. And it’s been really fascinating. And it’s happened both ways, because we’ve seen investors that are drawn towards companies with this values alignment. But we’ve also seen activist investors in the House who are frustrated or upset by the lack of alignment. And they can do a lot in a short amount of time. So we’ve seen both scenarios where its investors saying our values are not aligned, and we’re going to do something about it.

14:52

Now that’s interesting. That kind of takes me off on a little bit of a tangent because I’ve been reading a lot about how some ESG initiatives are getting sidelined because The state of the economy and the state of the markets. Are you seeing that? Or were you seeing sort of a robust commitment to purpose? Do you see that waning at all in the face of economic pressure?

15:11

I don’t in the sense that the organizations that are already using purpose as a source of growth and innovation, they’ve already seen the magic, it’s good business, it’s helping the business become more sustainable, and its growth in its trajectory. And all of those wonderful, beautiful little bits and pieces of the business case, for the companies who haven’t, and there may be very early on their journey, of course, they’re starting to ask the question, can we invest in this and still be good to our organization? And I think that’s a fine question to ask.

15:49

So can you give us some examples of folks that are doing this, right?

15:53

It’s interesting, because no matter who I say, there’s no perfect organization, there’s no perfect person.

16:00

So if I do it, 80%, right, yeah. 70%, right.

16:03

Unilever, I think is a great example. Because when I walk into a boardroom with the C suite, or the board of directors, they always want to get to that bottom line case. And it’s very, very difficult to compare apples to apples. That’s something that not a lot of organizations can do. Unilever does it beautifully. They’ve actually bifurcated their products into different portfolios that are based on the sustainable portfolio. And then nonsustainable portfolio. And what we can see is that sustainable portfolio is dramatically outperforming the regular portfolio every time year over year. So for the people who want to get right to that bottom line, which I think is a mistake, I think there are a lot of other wonderful details that ladder up to the bottom line. But they’re also very important to be measured, but I think Unilever can definitely hold its torch as the standout when we’re talking about that metric.

17:01

Awesome. Awesome. And that’s what caused that initiative within Unilever, was it consumer pressure, was it just gauging the winds of change, you know, that they were trying to create more sustainability to be more environmentally conscious. So they wouldn’t, you know, be made obsolete. Like what I think

17:20

it was within that nation, I was not in the room, but I do have friends that were there was a transition and a CEO, it was trying to define what the new era was going to be about. There was something about that, that really spoke to them in the early days. And that was their purpose statement for a really long time was, you know, really leaning into making every consumer sustainable. And I think it’s grown from there. And now they’re doing these wonderful things where they’re looking into supply chain, and they’re encouraging more diversity, not only in their employee groups, but in their supplier groups. And they’ve definitely kind of left the entry level Long, long ago. And they’re able to really fine tune and make these programs so much more robust. And I really commend them for that, because it’s kind of this great golden star to hold out for everyone to say, Oh, the financial case is very much there. This is really causing, you know, a ripple effect. That ladders up to fantastic business and growth. But we’re also having profound effect on the planet and people. Right, so it’s that win win win.

18:26

I know, I just I don’t see how there’s a loss there for anyone. And that’s why, you know, they’re one of the case studies in my book, The Empathy edge because of the ability to do it at scale. Absolutely. You know, because I think a lot of times, we tend to think, oh, this purpose driven stuff, this empathy stuff, it’s for smaller companies. And there is a way to scale it that way. You know, I have examples in my book, I’m sure you’ve worked with larger organizations that are global in nature, it doesn’t even matter. Because it’s just a collection of people, no matter what, no matter what 100 or 100,000.

18:59

That’s the thing, I will tell you, the companies that start with purpose at the epicenter from the beginning have an advantage just because it’s built into their DNA. So we have our B corpse, we have some organizations. That’s what their intention was all along. So it’s a bit easier because their hiring practices, most of their goals, their setting, and the KPIs that they’re tracking, all support that notion from the beginning. But it does not mean that a massive multinational, can’t have the same effect. It’s a bit harder, it’s a bit slower. It’s all the things you would think because of the size but you look at a company like p&g, who is also doing some fantastic things. I just had the good fortune of spending some time with their chief sustainability officer and she blew me away. I actually had some of the most fantastic stories of how she got senior leadership, particularly the CEOs, and they had quite a bit of turnover in a short amount of time. How she got them to own it and really make it theirs and I was just putting in her hands. Yeah.

20:02

Oh my gosh. Well, and that actually brings me to another question. What are the what are the ingredients required? If a company is going to say, Yeah, we want to, we want to commit to purpose, we’ve got to actually define what our purpose is. Yes. Does that is it a combination of leadership, driving the conversation, but then also getting input from all levels of the organization? Does there have to sort of be one champion? That is, you know, again, you know, with the with the expression too many cooks in the kitchen, you know, when you actually have to get to a point where we need to decide what our purpose statement credo is going to be. Is does it have to be clear from the onset about, you know, this is where we’re gathering all the input, but then these are the people that are going to make the final decision, you

20:50

should be interested in the tactics, yeah, you should try and endeavor for that, what it usually ends up being is you have to have the CEOs buy in, if you do not have CEO buy in, it’s destined to fail itself. It is, and it’s tedious and difficult. And for your passion players that have shown up, this really means something to them, it’s just a source of incredible frustration. But I will add to that, getting your CEOs personal purpose to mesh with the corporation’s purpose, that’s where the magic happens, when they start to see how that works. And how that intersects. One plus one starts to equal four, or five or six, it’s really an exponential growth factor. So I think you have to have the CEO, but I wouldn’t necessarily have the CEO own it. Because the CEO has a lot of other tasks during exactly. You need the CEO to champion it, but you need a person to own it. And then you need a committee to support it. But I believe strongly, yes, you’ve got to have the participation, you’ve got to have the interaction and the collaboration. And I’ll use the word co creation, with your employees at every level, if it isn’t speaking to them, and they can’t see themselves in the purpose. It’s a lost cause.

22:09

So true, so true. So how you got on my radar is that I read an amazing article that you were interviewed for, which was called five mistakes boards make when thinking about purpose, and as you said, it could have been five mistakes leaders make when thinking about purpose. So can you talk to us a little bit about what those pitfalls are maybe just a few highlighted ones, I’ll put a link to this article in the show notes for my listeners. So don’t you worry, you’ll get all five, but maybe other some highlights in there to nice that we can, we can dig into and maybe what’s the antidote? For some of those.

22:43

One of them is what we were just talking about. And I had the good fortune of writing this article with off Dale Aziz. And he’s just fantastic. He’s also a fellow purpose practitioner. So it was us really dreaming about what we wished we had when we were sitting in the boardroom, especially with people who have not come up with purpose as something that was a lever in an organization that had power and a lot of potential behind it for this, you know, notion of growth for this notion of how to innovate, and for reputational risk. And again, we’re kind of coming back to that. But the last one, I will tell you, I got a lot of chatter online about and that was not having a Purpose Committee and assuming everyone is responsible dollar for every time I can archy, I sit on a lot of boards. And you know, there’s a lot of we will leave out the first part, but the splaining Oh, everyone’s responsible for that. I’m like, great, who owns it? Who’s responsible for the KPIs and measuring this and making sure it’s enacted? Then you get the kind of HA base, I have Great Danes, and they’re infamous for making the you know, cut a Hefei sucking their head to the right. That’s it. And I’m like, oh, then we have a problem. Because even though yes, I agree. Everybody should own this. If someone doesn’t own it, it’s never going to be developed into something that’s meaningful, rich and robust. And if we’re not doing it at the board, or the C suite level, the rest of the organization is not going to perceive that it’s important. Yeah. So that, to me is something that it’s that notion of modeling. You’re asking your organization to adopt it, your board had better adopted and your C suite leaders have to adopt it. So I think the board sometimes exempts themselves. And that’s for the executive team. That’s for the employees. That’s where whatever the truth is, no, you should be mirroring a great culture and if the culture is purpose driven, you had better be purpose driven on the board. And there are just some key things that at the end of the day if you’re missing them, boards not representing the community that was another one that I was that

25:02

was that was one that really resonated with me, tell us what you mean by that. So or doesn’t represent the community. That’s a big mistake. We’ve

25:08

got a lot of dei issues right now that people are contending with and trying to rectify a lot of wrongs that have been out there. One of the fastest ways to identify whether or not that board is taking things seriously is to look at its composition. Does it look like the community it’s representing? Or does it look like a lot of unfortunate other boards where you see the same gender the same same age demographic. And if that’s the case, you should probably reconsider, because you’re not representing your stakeholders, if that’s the case. So I think it’s really important to look long and hard. And not just against one or two of these slices, and demographic, but multiple slices. Age is one of them. I think it’s really important. There’s a, like I said, Five generations in the workforce, we should probably have people that can speak and represent them in a really authentic way. Gender salutely. As we all know, the big fight is California sort of kick things off. And you know, women on boards is become something that we’ve got so much data to prove that the boards and the companies improve.

26:16

I had someone asked me once about that and say, Well, I’ve never seen any, you know, we talk a lot about the fact that if you have diverse executive teams and diverse boards, but is there actually any data and I literally sent this person an email with like, nine, just just nine good ones, I could find that like, how’s that? First? I want to say that my page of a Google search do more and Yeah, well, the other one that really resonated with me, too, was the first one which is focusing on the short term versus the long term, because this is an issue. I don’t, it almost doesn’t matter what vector if it’s purpose, if it’s brand, if it’s customer loyalty, customer experience, there’s there’s such this desire to shortcut everything. I don’t know if that’s because we’re not lifers anymore in our jobs, that we just think about, like the next two or three years that we’re going to be in this role. And then it’s somebody else’s problem. I don’t know where that comes from, but But how can you get an organization to think about purpose, longer term, even if those players might not be around?

27:19

I have empathy, first of all, because exactly short term, you know, those quarterly earnings calls, they’re no joke, and they’re no fun, yeah, it will get put through is really difficult. So I have a lot of empathy, because you can’t abandon the short term wins, no, but you can recontextualize them, you can look at those wins as stepping stones towards your long term goals, you can reframe the conversation to be looking at value creation. And once you really set that as the epicenter, the conversation begins to change. The problem is you have a lot of demands coming in. And if you aren’t able to have alignment on your leadership team, and at the board level, you don’t have the armor to be able to say, we’re not putting all of our time, energy and effort into those short term goals. Those short term goals are going to ladder up to our long term goals. It takes a lot of humility, it takes a lot of strength, it takes a lot of action and support to get to that place. But the companies that do there’ll be along around for a very, very long time. So I think it’s really important that we start reframing that conversation. And the good news is if we look at our investors, our employees and our customers, they’re looking for a lot more in terms of value, alignment, values, alignment, and having those the value ladder up to creating value. So it’s a good time to have those conversations. But you’ve got to have people that are supporting you, you’ve got to have, you know, like I said, the leadership team has to have the Board of Directors agree on on all of this. And you’ve got to have those concentric rings of support to be able to make that transition. Once you do you can see it you can see the believers, you can see the IP as you can see all these organizations that are able to do it and do it successfully and are still incredibly financially viable.

29:21

I love that. And, you know, to to stress your point about how important it is the tenor that the board sets because I’ve been a part of many startups in the the merry go round of Silicon Valley and the first bust in 1999, and then recent recessions. And if if that board is the one that’s just focused on the short term pressure, that’s where it’s all coming from. It’s it’s from them. It’s not necessarily that the leaders wouldn’t like to do things differently. It’s they’re, they’re doing those quarterly reports every year, every every quarter, and they’re the ones that have to take the heat right And so if but if you have a supportive board that has a longer term vision, and is willing to be a little bit more risk tolerant. Yep. Then what you’re what I hear you saying is that it’s worth it. It’s worth it.

30:14

Absolutely. And if I understand Patagonia is not a publicly traded company, but they just set the bar for this new expectation. I mean, Mother Earth is their only stakeholder now. And right, I think all of us that read the news, were just like, wow, just when you think that Patagonia clothing right now, yes, when you think they can’t set the bar any higher. I know, there you have it. And it was incredible to see. And it was incredible to see the reaction, because people kind of felt like we had hit some sort of ceiling. And all of a sudden, they just blew it clean out of the box. And people were like, Okay, we have a lot more to do, and a further way to go, and it sort of energized and excited people. So it was wonderful to see once again, our champions went out there and just blew apart these conceptions of how it had to be. Yes, that a whole new standard for what could be

31:08

right. And I love that, you know, these, these companies come from positions of strength, Rei just did something recently where they said health care for everybody, regardless of whether you’re a part time employee or a full time employee, all these little actions, the thing that frustrates me, and it might frustrate you too, is when I see all these other leaders lautering these, these actions, but then being unwilling to take them in their own organization, like they have all those, they have all those management books on their bookshelf, and those leadership books on their bookshelf. But yet, when it comes to their day to day, yeah, and how they’re leading their companies, it’s like they forget, the supports are

31:45

there. It’s kind of deep held. And I think antiquated belief that if you want to have a successful business, these are the metrics we have to hit and be measuring. And the truth is, it no longer holds true. society changed. All of our key stakeholders changed. And we’re now accountable brands and one of the things that I love brands used to be singularly created in a funnel. One way communication, the company was totally in control, they would push it out. Brands are co created now. And there’s nothing you can do about it. And the company itself has very little control of their own brand. They Bray they can hold on to bits and pieces of it. Right? The truth is, it’s being co created across that entire stakeholder echo system at lightning speed with technology, what it is today, and levels of transparency, what they are, the consequences have never been higher.

32:39

So and I always I always love to tell my clients that very lesson, but also say so all you can do is intentionally take the actions you can take to make that a narrative you want. And so you don’t have to throw your hands up and be like, well, it’s whatever people want to say we are no it’s going to be all what they say it is and how they perceive it is going to be based on all the actions big and small that you take. So isn’t it in your best interest to do the best intentions have the best intentionality about those actions so that you’re in sync with those customers? And again, hope and pray that their perception of the brand is what you actually wanted them to have? Well, I genuinely are Yes. Oh

33:23

100% were in alignment. But I also describe it as putting deposits of goodwill and credibility in the bank. It’s not if a disaster happens, it’s when it’s when it’s going to happen. The transparency is so high now due to all the technology we have the fact that every person is a citizen journalist. I mean, we just have employees striking now and boycotting. I mean, we have so much happening now. It’s when Yeah. So if you’re making those deposits along the way, the chances of those stakeholder groups are giving you giving you the benefit of the doubt, believing that there was no mal intent if there wasn’t any

34:00

right and that it’s Yeah, exactly. Asterisk. Yeah. But also understanding that that’s an outlier, not the norm. Exactly. It’s when you get that for good. You’ve got a track record. Yes, exactly. And it’s just like, like you said, it’s deposits in the bank. And it’s, it’s when you consistently under deliver and let people down that that’s the problem. But if you can build up that goodwill, enough. And by the way, circling back around, that’s where being committed to your purpose, helps people say, Well, this is my career, I understand.

34:31

Yeah, empathy, all those beautiful things that work together harmoniously to create this greater hole. They all have to be firing and they all have to be utilized constantly. It’s not a one and done. You don’t do something truthful once and that’s it, you abandon it, you have to do this daily. It has to be part of the fabric of who you are as an organization. It has to be part of the culture. It has to be a part of everything you do, but when you do it and you do Well write, it’s amazing how much strength it provides when you need it most. Right?

35:06

I mean, I wrote about the empathy veneer in my book, which is the you know, we’re empathetic because we give to the food bank once a year at the holidays, right? So I, I also sense from what you’ve said today, there’s there can be a purpose veneer unless you are actually walking your talk and embedding this, I call it operationalizing empathy, but operationalizing purpose salutely Not just as we talked about the pretty poster on the wall. But what are you doing with hiring? What are you doing with rewards? What are you doing with performance evaluations? What are you doing with culture, it has to be at every level of the organization has

35:40

to be embedded across the entire organization. And I always suggest to people do as much as you can internally before you push it out externally. Yes, hold on to it. It’s your baby, like nurture it, grow it. Make sure every level of the organization understands how to see themselves and how to participate in the purpose before you feel like shouting it from the rooftops. Right. It’s better than make it genuine. That’s it. And it’s better to have difficult conversations internally with friends than it is with the markets. That’s a little upset with you.

36:13

Well, this has been such good stuff. Denise, thank you so much how, as I like I mentioned, we’re going to have your links in the show notes. But where can people find out more about you or more about the work that you’re doing with

36:23

LinkedIn is always a great place. It’s where I keep most of my current articles, and you can find me pretty easily. So that’s always a fantastic place to connect. I love meeting new people. I think that’s how we met very first time. Yes. So it’s just a wonderful opportunity to get to say hello to get to figure out other people’s interest to get to learn more about each other. So I welcome the LinkedIn connections.

36:48

Awesome. Alright, folks, you heard it here. Connect with Denise writer note first to tell her that you heard her on the podcast, so she doesn’t think you’re trying to sell or something. And I just I really enjoyed talking with you. I could have talked for you with you too. About this for another hour. So

37:03

I think I could have well thank you, Maria. This has been fantastic. And hopefully we’ll get to do it again. Yes.

37:09

And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always, if you liked what you heard, please share it with your friends and colleagues. And don’t forget to rate and review and until next time and our next insightful guest. Please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.