Podcast Episodes Archive - Page 10 of 26 - Red Slice | Speaker, Author, Leadership Trainer

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Dave Zaboski: Creativity & Collaboration Lessons from Disney and Beyond

There is a lot of talk about how creativity and collaboration “should” be done these days. Some say processes are stifling. Others say you have to all be in the same office to collaborate effectively. Today’s conversation will offer you a different take on how collaboration can actually lead to the most creative solutions on the planet.

Today, I spoke with Laetro co-founder and firmer Disney creative, Dave Zaboski! We talked about what Disney taught him about effective collaboration, including the idea of “plussing” to ensure the best outcome. He candidly shares how process and structure don’t stifle creativity but ensure it’s repeatable, and actually helps creatives get good work out into the world. We talk about the unique position we are in as humans to tell stories, the role mission plays in mobilizing a team, and how empathy is required by artists. Dave also gives his take on AI and creative technology and where the dangers and opportunities lie.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Solutions can and should be beautiful. Beauty is created when you add to others, not when you are negative to them.
Empathy in creativity allows bridges to be built and connections to be made between different experiences of different people.
Storytelling is a power – stories create our reality. What would happen if we stop telling the apocalypse stories, and start to use the technology in the stories to enable society to flourish.
There is process and structure, even in creativity. It is not a bad thing, it is a way to get replicable results no matter what industry you are in. Rules are necessary for creativity to flourish.

“Creativity, innovation, the advancement of ideas and collaboration happen on both sides of the brain. In order to be able to create powerfully, it’s got to be the head, heart and hands.”

— Dave Zaboski

About Dave Zaboski, Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer, Laetro.com

Dave Zaboski is the co-founder and Chief Creative Officer of Laetro.com, a tech-enabled community of the world’s finest creatives serving enterprise customers with best-in-class design services. He is a classically trained painter and was an animator at Disney, Sony, and Warner Bros. during the Second Golden Age of Animation. He worked on “Beauty and the Beast,” “The Lion King,” “Pocahontas,” “Aladdin,” “The Hunchback of Notre Dame,” “Hercules,” “Fantasia 2000,” and others. He has illustrated several acclaimed children’s books, including titles for Dr. Ken Dychtwald, Dr. Deepak Chopra, finance guru Ric Edelman, and actor Paul Michael Glaser.

Dave has created concept art for film and television, shown his fine art at galleries internationally, been the expedition artist in search of a lost temple in the Andes, and painted for the Dalai Lama. Along with teaching workshops at retreat centers like Esalen Institute, Summit, and Rancho La Puerta, Dave also contributed as a faculty member at Singularity University and NextMed Health Conferences. Dave teaches creativity, leadership, innovation, and collaboration to entrepreneurs, makers, and organizations around the world. He lives with his wife, Robin, and a small menagerie on a ranchette in Southern California.

Connect with Dave Zaboski:

Laetro.com: Laetro.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/davezaboski/

Instagram: instagram.com/davezart

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

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Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Dave Zaboski 04:27

Maria, it’s my pleasure.

Maria Ross 04:28

I’m delighted to be here. Well, and we were just talking before we started recording that you have been a part of some of my most favorite heartwarming Disney films, beauty of the beast, Lion King, all of them and I’m just so amazed by the depth and breadth of your career and what you’ve been exposed to. So having this conversation around empathy and collaboration, and being able to be creative with different perspectives is so important and just You’re the perfect person to talk about this with so Before we dive into the topic at hand, I mean, tell us a little bit about how you got into animation and how you got to where the work you’re doing now, for enterprise customers,

Dave Zaboski 05:10

right? Well, just to briefly encapsulate, I have done a universal drawing in my life. I picked up a crayon when I was a kid, and I don’t think I ever put it down. But I got a D plus in high school art, for various reasons. You know, it’s just like, I almost contend that like, the greatest challenge to any artist is an art teacher. And so I kind of put it away, I went to college, I went to UC Santa Barbara, I got a couple of degrees in psychology and French literature, and then just did paintings and drawings for my friends. I come from a big Jewish family in Los Angeles that says, Well, you know, you graduated from college, you can do anything you want in your life, what kind of doctor or lawyer is that going to be? And so I explored going into law, I got a I took the LSAT, I got a job in a big law firm in Los Angeles, I was living in Beverly Hills, I had an office on the 42nd floor of this building. And I kind of hated every minute of it, and realize that maybe if I face this way, and that’s law, what do I see if I face the other way. And so I turned around, because I really wanted to be at the fulcrum point of my life. You know, in law, there’s a lot of precedent, there’s a lot of things that that it just didn’t feel very imaginative, especially in the firm that I was in, I imagine it’s possible in other firms. But in the one I was in it, just imagination didn’t matter. And I wanted to be at that place where the pencil met the paper. So I turned around, and there was art school. So I collected all the drawings and paintings I’d done for my friends for their birthdays, took it to Art Center College of Design, and then got in. I never looked back, like that was so exciting to me, that an internship there that was kind of like a Project Runway internship for Disney Animation Studios. And on my third attempt at it, you know, I mean, I think persistence is important. I got into Disney. And when I got in, I could draw, but I didn’t know anything about animation. And the artist development program, there was so amazing, because it was not just about the principles of animation was about the principles of the animator, so not just how to make things, but how to make the maker. And that is sort of like you know, a basketball player who also was a student of the game. And for me, that was something that was really powerful to be able to really learn about, not just how to turn a thought into a thing. But all of the studies, all of the like I think I was mentioning before we started, you know, I can actually trace my teachers back to the Renaissance, all of the studies, the knowledge that has been gathered. And that was super fascinating to me. So when I left Disney, I started teaching that stuff, I became a kind of consultant and also almost accidental consultant. But the stuff that I have to share comes from a kind of parallel path to all the entrepreneurial wisdom that starts with Napoleon Hill and ends at Simon Sinek. It’s a completely different parallel path to turning a thought into a thing at the level of imagination that I think maps really nicely onto the entrepreneurial journey. And so I started training that teaching that Consulting at places ended up consulting in places like Google and Singularity University. And that’s where I met my co founder, where we looked at the ecosystem of creatives in both the tech industry and the animation and entertainment industry and realize that they could use some help. So we created a company called . That’s la e tr O stands for maestro’s of light, to be able to help creatives get good work in the world, our mission there is to see creatives flourish. And so that sort of is where we’re at right now. And I find myself a kind of a, you know, an accidental tech Exec. You know, bonafide Silicon Valley startup. I’m sort of like a ballet dancer that’s now running the company.

Maria Ross 08:50

I love it. I love it so much. And you know what’s really fascinating, there’s so many angles where we can start this conversation. But I would like to talk about your experience at Disney in the golden age of animation and what we can learn leaders like us in the tech industry in other industries, maybe not even leaders, but individual contributors. What can we learn from Disney about the processes for collaboration there? What are some key highlights and insights that you learned about how to collaborate effectively together with especially in what can be very large teams?

Dave Zaboski 09:26

Right, not only large teams, but incredibly eclectic teams, like the artists at Disney were imagined the best doodlers from any high school in the world, right. Like I was one of them. I got a D plus for doodling too much even in my art class.

Maria Ross 09:41

My son will be very happy to hear this because he got in trouble for doodling all over his homework. So yeah.

Dave Zaboski 09:48

So yeah, I’ll be happy to talk to him. I’ve got stories. So you have these wild horses, how do you get them all pointed in the same direction? So here’s something that I found that becomes really valuable in I think any industry. And that is the recognition that creativity, innovation, the advancement of ideas and collaboration happen on, you know what we might call both sides of the brain. Or you might call it that there’s the head, heart and hands, in order to be able to create powerfully, it cannot just be the head, it cannot just be the hands, it’s got to be the head, heart and hand. And so what we recognize really early at Disney, was that if you were negatively critical of a creative process, then that kind of hurt the heart side of things, you know, the mind can maybe not take it so personally in the hands have their own skills, but the heart can get hurt. And when the heart hurts, it doesn’t create as well. So you can’t tell a creative person that they suck, or that the product that they created sucked, and get good work out of them. It kind of short circuits, the operations system of the heart that operates on a motion, and we need those emotions to be able to create powerfully because the thing we’re creating has to resonate with other humans. And so if you’re just building a bridge, I suppose, maybe not so much, but it still has to solve for some things. And even then, Buckminster Fuller said, that if something you need to solve for something, I’m going to paraphrase this and butcher it. But the idea is that as a solution, if it doesn’t have beauty to it is not a complete solution. And so, when you are additive to people, then you keep the heart healthy, that head heart enhance aspect stays healthier. And so when you can be additive in the creative process, then you allow for all of those things to be able to find a way to flourish. And so at Disney, we had this term called plussing to plus someone was to be in service, an additive service to the trick highest trajectory of an idea, not the ego that brought it not, you know, not the particulars of this idea. But like, how do you get this idea to have its highest trajectory. And so plussing was a term that was not only a tool for collaboration, but it was a cultural piece. And that was what was so exciting. Because when you get into a place where there’s permission to plus each other, and here’s the other piece of it. But you also have to tell a bigger story than anybody there. Right? So we all knew that we were telling a great big story of story that was going to impact culture. And I think in corporations, that’s also another thing that they can do. What’s the story that you’re telling, that’s bigger than anybody, so that they can find by him, they can find themselves in the story, and they can plus the story. So then plussing becomes this cultural piece, that when there’s permission to plus, oh my God, it is so much fun. Everybody is like, Hey, man, I learned this thing from this guy over here that I’m seeing might affect your stuff. Can I share it with you? You know, like, on Pocahontas, I have this scene where John Smith was saying, well, he’s kind of hanging from a tree that he’s just almost fallen out of right? When he’s talking to Pocahontas. And he says, Well, you know, it’s kind of like this. And he’s spinning his hand in a circle, giving a kind of gesture, with a hand is super hard to draw. Probably one of the hardest things in the world to draw AI still hasn’t figured it out. So I did a scene I did that scene, and one of my animator colleagues looked at it and he went, Hey, that scene looks great. Do you mind if I share with you what one of the nine Old Ben showed me about how to draw hands? Oh, my God. Yes, please. And so in five minutes, he changed my life. And now I know, like, you know, 30 years later, I’ve shared that 5000 times, you know. So that idea of passing becomes not just a moment passing throughout the day, but it becomes a cultural piece that allows for everybody to rise. And that’s really powerful.

Maria Ross 14:03

Well, and I love that that was clearly encouraged and celebrated in the culture because you might have a culture where people are hoarding information, they’re competitive. They don’t want to make your idea any better than it is because it detracts from them. What do you attribute the cultivation of that openness in the culture to? Was it training? Was it the people that Disney attracted, what do you think was the secret sauce there? Well,

Dave Zaboski 14:30

I think that culture is built from both sides of the company. It’s built from the top down, and it’s also built from the bottom up, you know, the Academie Francaise in France is always trying to affect language like you can’t have a Walkman you have to have a better Dell or you know, like that’s a they’d like they’d change the names of things. But the implementation of culture happens at the bottom of culture. So the lower level workers that’s where the implementation happens in the directives can come from the top But if they’re not aligned, they’re going to crash somewhere in the middle. And so, at Disney, it is said that Walt Disney himself coined the term plussing. And he even said that if you ever see two animators standing by the watercooler talking, let them talk because they’re probably working on making everything better. Right. So you have to have an understanding of the lower in the trenches, piece of culture. And you have to have the understanding from the top to allow that kind of plussing to happen. So plussing can be an overall rule, but you can’t as a leader go, Hey, here’s how I think

Maria Ross 15:36

you should plus start plussing. Yeah, right, right.

Dave Zaboski 15:39

Here’s how I’m gonna plus this, right. And that’s actually what broke plussing at Disney was ego and hubris from the top that believed that because they had greenlit the geniuses below them, that they were responsible for the success of those films.

Maria Ross 15:56

And oh my gosh, that’s such a great cautionary tale. And I liked I

Dave Zaboski 16:00

look at the gap between CEO pay and regular worker pay. And there’s this, it’s hard not to have those guys at the top kind of be ego involved, they’re making millions of dollars a year. And they think that they’re worth it and worth more than the workers at the bottom, that everybody’s building, whatever it is that you’re building, you can’t have one person make something that big. So culture has to be additive.

Maria Ross 16:25

And so, you know, obviously, in such a blatantly storytelling role as an animator, and you know, the work that you even do now helping organizations embrace design to I love that how you put this turning a thought into a thing? What was the role of empathy in that golden age? And what do you see as the role of empathy now in the most functional organizations that you work with, and they’re in for you? What’s the correlation between empathy and creativity?

Dave Zaboski 16:55

Wow, that’s a beautiful question. I think that they have to go together. That, you know, there are, I think, degrees of empathy or spectrum of empathy or echelons of empathy. I mentioned it, I like, as I see it, there’s sort of like, you know, empathy is a kind of listening. And so at what level? Are you listening at the corporate level, you’re listening to the product market fit? How do the consumers receive our message? Right? At the internal level, you’re listening for the systems and practices efficiency? And so how do our systems and practices what do you know? Do we use clickup? Monday Asana? What are the things that we use to be able to listen to our cohort so that they can effectively and efficiently solve for the challenges and tasks at hand? And then there’s the you know, next level down, which is sort of Team listening? And how do those teams operate? And then that how does that team listen to the other teams? You know, I think that is like turtles, it goes all the way down, you know? And then how do we listen to each other. And that’s why I think that plussing is such a powerful cultural piece, is that, you know, to plus, is to listen for the highest in the thing that you’re working on. And so even down at the personal level, if I have empathy for myself, if I’m listening for what I need, you know, I think that it’s a matter of understanding all of those points of you know, that ladder or the spiral, you know, from this sort of, you know, external all the way to the individual.

Maria Ross 18:39

Well, and would I, you know, again, in your work as a storyteller, it’s also about really understanding what you’re designing for the end user, for the audience, and not just, you know, you can tell those, I mean, I, as a parent, I can tell those animated films where they’re, they seem to be making it just for them, versus where they’re thinking through how a family or a child with a parent might be consuming the story. And I think what makes so many the best animated films, as an example, so powerful is they understand that there’s different people in the audience, and they create moments in the movie in the story that appeal to all of those audiences. I mean, how many great animated movies have we seen where there’s jokes, my kid doesn’t get that I guess, you know, and that I feel like that’s empathy that I mean, it’s user centered design, whatever you want to call it, but it’s intentionally thinking through, how is somebody consuming this on the other end? What is that experience? Like? It’s not just the eight year old child. It’s the six year old or the eight year old, with an adult in the room, potentially with a grandparent, you know, different generations. And so do you think that that now as you work with tech companies, do you find yourself in that storyteller role? I know when I’m doing brand strategy work? Getting them to actually change lenses and think about the consumers point of view the user’s point of view, do you find that a big part of your work and helping them create great design?

Dave Zaboski 20:12

Well, yes, but it starts before that. What makes something what makes something that I make resonate with you is that it totally resonated with me. And the more I can connect to my truth, and my authenticity, the more that thing that I create is going to resonate with your authenticity. Now, given that it’s not gonna resonate with everybody’s right, so you can’t sell one thing that goes to everybody. And so what I can do is create authentically, and trust that there’s other people who authentically resonate with that same feeling. And so when creation comes from that authentic place, then you’re actually getting to the deeper why of why people are creating in the first place. So what we typically do is we don’t just go for the story that’s going to resonate with a consumer, you go for story that’s going to resonate with you. And that way, you can stay in your own authenticity, and that becomes a gravity that attracts the consumers that will see what you’re creating as a gift that they will pay for. So that level of strategy is a little bit different than the sort of madman in a way, that’s kind of how the whole madman thing got started. And then it sort of got distorted. And now we’re in this place where we’ve fully structured data so that we can manipulate, we’re using all of these points of contact with the consumer. And then eventually, that all of that data is going to have to be run through a marketer and a creative so that they can find the resonance in themselves for the people that we’re hoping to be of service to, and not just sell to.

Maria Ross 21:55

I think that authenticity piece is so important. And how do you adjust when sometimes the audience that you are creating something for is not necessarily exactly like you? How do you is it just because it is authentic to you that that’s what resonates, whether it’s 100% applicable to the other person? On the other side? How do you adjust for diversity of experience within the audience that they might not be exactly like you?

Dave Zaboski 22:25

Right? Well, yeah, there’s sort of two answers to that. They’re all exactly like me and empathy. Right? So there’s this big thing going on in Hollywood right now. Like, if you haven’t had triplets, are you allowed to play a mom of triplets on TV? Right? Like, if you aren’t LGBTQ? Are you allowed to play that role on TV? You know, I can see the validity in it. And, you know, we’re actors. And so, you know, if you’re doing Yeah, I don’t know. So that’s a challenge. And because we’re creators, we can be empathetic, like, I can feel what’s going on with another person, and find that empathy. In the end, that becomes actually a kind of training. I’ll share with you an example, that I when I was an intern, it was a very competitive internship. And at the time, Disney was releasing movies every seven years, and they were releasing Jungle Book, which was one of my favorite movies. And so it came out during the time when I was an intern, there are 15 of us interns. And we all agreed that, okay, we’re going to take the afternoon off, and we’re all going to go watch Jungle Book together. It’s not, it’s like nobody can skip out and keep working on their projects. We’re all going to go as a group to go watch Jungle Book. And so I’m watching Jungle Book. And there’s these two kids behind me that are making a total ruckus, they’re jumping up and down, and they’re jumping on their seats, and their moms are sitting behind them. And I’m like, super frustrated that I’m hearing all these kids distracting me while I am studying Jungle Book, because I might be one of these animators and I’m sitting with my colleagues. And you know, I have my pencil out. And I’m furiously studying this as an academic. And these kids are super distracting. And I finally turn around to say something to their moms right at the moment when there’s the elephant parade. And the general elephant turns around and looks at Mowgli in his little friend, the elephant. And he gives them the scrunched up look with all of these lines, and it’s just this crazy look that he gives him and the kids, I look back and they’re standing on their chairs, and they get knocked back into their seats laughing by the drawing on the screen. And what I realized was that they were not misbehaving. This is probably the first big movie that they’d ever been to. They were completely involved in the show. And so I stopped being that, you know, sort of pretentious student of animation and was so enjoying the movie, because I learned from these young kids that that was the whole point of it. And so, in that space, you can see that some 55 year old artists made it Rolling 30 years ago that knocked these kids out of their seat. Now, that’s what’s possible with empathy.

Maria Ross 25:08

Was it the original? I’m just curious. Oh, yeah, they were seeing Yeah. Okay. I was gonna say because you were working on the remake version of it. Yes. No, I

Dave Zaboski 25:15

didn’t work on the remake of it. Oh, okay. So my movies were beating the Beast, Aladdin Lion King Pocahontas, Hunchback of Notre Dame God.

Maria Ross 25:21

So you were studying Jungle Book. Okay, now I was studying

Dave Zaboski 25:25

the old Jungle Book that had been made in 1968. And this is probably in 1993, or 94. Right? Wow. And so. So imagine that level of empathy that’s possible through the arts and through creativity is that some 55 year old, you know, white guy in 1966, who had the empathy and the chops creatively, to be able to make a drawing that 35 years later knocks some seven year olds off of their chair. Right, yeah. And so that’s what’s possible with empathy and creativity, we don’t have to necessarily have that same experience, to find it in ourselves to understand what it is. And that’s maybe the key to how culture can finally meet each other. We’re so separate right now we’re so like, this was my experience, and you can’t possibly understand. And I think that builds walls, not bridges. I think creativity is a place where we actually can find those bridges between hearts, because that’s where we’re playing from. And so I don’t have to have the experience of, you know, a person that’s different from me, to be able to empathize with the challenges, pains and trials that they go through, if I can really find my heart and their heart. And so that’s why I think that that is so important to keep that in place, especially in the tech industry, where we’re creating things in a way that comes from a philosophy of breaking things. And I think that, you know, maybe now it’s time to start fixing things, and we can break a lot of stuff with our mind, but maybe we can fix it with our hearts.

Maria Ross 27:12

Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Can you talk a little bit about speaking of that shift into tech, talk to us a little bit about the technology of creativity and what your take is on what’s happening? Is it in your opinion? Is it positive? Is it negative? Is it you know, cautionary? What do you see in terms of what’s on the horizon? And in the technology related to creativity,

Dave Zaboski 27:39

right? Well, let’s define technology. Technology is a system a tool or a practice that allows for predictive or replicable results, right, just as a definition, right. So technology is not necessarily something that you plug into the wall. A cup is technology is spoon is technology. Creativity is a technology as a creative, I have to have practices that allow for replicable results. You know, often it’s like, people go, Alright, we’re gonna do this, and this and this, and then we’re gonna give it to Dave. And then when Dave is done with his magic, then we’ll take this and this and this, and I’m kind of this black box for people. But for me, I have to have systems and practices that allow for whatever the inputs are to create outputs that match the success criteria of what we’re asking for. So there is a technology of creativity, there are tools, systems, practices, laws of creativity, as it pertains to the evolution of the plugged in technology, you know, like our tech enabled society?

Maria Ross 28:50

Well, I think like anything from like, the software to the apps to the AI, that’s enabling word, they’re saying that they are enabling technology, you know, you could look at Photoshop or Illustrator, or you could look at chat, GBT, or anything that helps someone create something that kind of plugged in technology,

Dave Zaboski 29:08

right? Yes. So let’s talk about technology to every piece of technology has to have rules of engagement, it has to have rules of how you use it, a spoon is used a certain way. Brushes are a technology, right? So I use a brush. But there’s a way that I use a brush. I can’t use the end of it or the side of it. There’s a particular way now I might in some innovative ways scratch to do these things. But this tool that I have, is has an optimum use of it. And I think that what’s the challenge right now, especially with things like AI, because I believe we’ve gone through a portal in the last couple of weeks. Chad GPT 3.5 was fair to middlin but it wasn’t replacing a lot of things chat. TPT for is pretty amazing. We have at our fingertips right now the totality of human information, you know, parentheses up to two When he’s 21, and we don’t have any rules for that brush. So I think that’s the challenge that we face right now is that we, as a culture, have not got a consensus on what’s ethical. We have too many fractions and too many dissatisfied people who are smart enough to do some damage. And it’s a lot easier to do damage than it is to, you know, it’s easier to poke a hole in a canvas than to make a painting on it. So you can use the brush in ways that are destructive, or ways that are constructive. And I think that for me, when it comes to artificial intelligence, which I think is a misnomer, it’s not really intelligence. It’s a kind of aggregation of the totality of human knowledge, it’s machine learning, that’s fine. If you want to call it intelligence, then you have to include the other intelligences that are out there in the world. ants, bees, ecosystems, watersheds, oceans, the planet may be itself, you know, you know that you can have one smart person, and maybe that’s the smartest person in the room. But three people are smarter, and 50 people are dumber. And so intelligence has also this sort of field of it. It’s not just a ladder that says that humans are at the top of it, and we’re going to make something artificial that matches us. So from a philosophical standpoint, like I sort of have a little bit different view of the multitudes of intelligences that we have an opportunity to connect with. From a tool standpoint, I think that the thing that we call artificial intelligence, we’re in an incredibly dangerous time with it right now. It’s sort of like giving a bunch of kids lightsabers, this tool has the ability to do a lot of good. I mean, you could ask chat, chi PT, to collect the works of Buddha, understand everything that Buddha has said in all of the treaties that ever been done with Buddha, and then ask it to respond to you, in the voice of Buddha for any question that you have. Imagine that. So here’s where I land on it. Maria, my provocation for all of these new tools for this brave new world is portal that we pass through is, what is it went well, that’s my provocation. We are storytellers. We have gotten very practice that telling the post apocalyptic story, it’s easiest, low hanging fruit. as storytellers, you have to know that there have been 100 million species on this planet, of which 90% have gone extinct 90% Of all the life and 2.5 billion years of the life that’s been on this planet that’s been privileged to breathe this air of swim in these waters and feel the rain is dead and gone, and never to return. One species in all of that time, have 100 million species tell stories. And that’s us. It is a one in 100 million power. And I think that if we recognize that when we recognize that power, that power that stories can create our reality. And then our provocation is what if this went well, then we can tell stories about AI, that we can speak to the Buddha, you can speak to your long lost grandparents, if you have data on them. People can speak to me in some future or you in some future with all of this data. What if it went well? What if you use these tools to help your business flourish to help your friends flourish? That’s where I think that this piece can go and it’s empathy and love that can really change the tide on it. You know, telling stories of the apocalypse make damaging things poking a hole through a canvas with a brush. That’s freakin easy. Big deal. The guys who went extinct all did that, you know, our one in 100 million species power to tell stories changes reality. And that’s why my provocation of what if it went well? How powerful of a storyteller Are you flex that muscle? Yeah, and then use these tools.

Maria Ross 34:14

Ah, so good. So, so good, because it is it’s, we act like the script is written. And it isn’t. And like you said, all of these things. Everything we create can be used for good or evil, everything. So it’s the lens through which we’re going to approach the story we tell about how we want to use that tool or that process. I do want to just quickly go back and just say how much I appreciate what you said earlier about. Even in creativity, you follow a process because in many workplaces, especially tech, you know, the idea of process or structure has been bastardized as being evil, it’s horrible, but then it’s just Chaos, right? And like you said, it’s not repeatable, it’s not replicable. And so I love that you as super creator, a super creative is like, yes, there is a process. It might not be like a flowchart. But there is a process involved in being able to create something. And what you said was, which was so pivotal to me, was in order to ensure the successful output, by however it’s defined, right. And when we sort of go, you know, wild west on things, that’s where you have disgruntled people, you have people not clear on their roles, you have people not understanding who’s making decisions. So you know, I’m all for dismantling hierarchy that is negative hierarchy. But process gets a bad rap. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing.

Dave Zaboski 35:50

We’ll just complete No, it’s not a bad thing. It’s, it’s how you get from one point to the next, you know, I asked chat GPT to write 800 word essay on creativity, using the current things and I’ve taken a prompt engineering class like I’m into this, right, I’m like, I need to know what this tool is. I might proficient digital painter, I’m speaking to you on a Wacom tablet. Like I these are all brushes, right? It’s my creativity. That’s the source. And then all of these things are tools that I use. So I asked chap CPT to write an essay on creativity. And it wrote four times in a six or 800 word essay to think outside of the box. Oh, my God, that is such a stick. That’s not only is it ridiculous, but it’s also wrong. Like this idea of thinking outside of the box. What does that even mean? It’s now become such a cliche that it’s used in a way that’s like, I don’t know, trying to stop a tornado with a feather. You’re early not saying anything. It’s not effective. Yeah, in fact, the opposite is true. I don’t want to think outside of the box, tell me what my parameters are. Let’s clarify what the box is. And I will give you a frickin beautiful box. Yeah, right. Like you look at basketball, there’s a whole box that they have to go in. But the ball has to go through a hoop. Right? How it gets through that hoop? Well, there’s a lot of different ways. And there’s a ton of different strategies. And there’s a freakin million ways that it got there. But it always has to go through that hoop. And there are rules to get it to that hoop. So you can’t just keep walking and take a ladder, you’ve got to have some parameters for it. And creating is the same. You can’t just say, think outside of the box, you have to know even if you want it to you have to know what the box is, you know, you can see behind me, I don’t know or this can, but there’s easels and paintings, you know, that there’s imagination, projecting from these paintings, but they’re on a rectilinear surface, you know, like, I can’t just keep painting over the walls. You know, there are rules that are necessary for creativity to flourish. And thinking outside of the box is just a ridiculous statement. You have to have parameters. It’s a technology.

Maria Ross 38:01

I love it. I love it so much. Dave, thank you so much for sharing your insights and your work and your fascinating career history. And especially what you’ve learned about the rules of collaboration and empathy and being able to be understanding, I will have all your links in the show notes for everyone listening, but just real quickly, for anyone on the go, where’s the best place they can find out more about you and connect with you. Alright, let

Dave Zaboski 38:25

me tell you, but if it’s okay, I want to just drop one last little thing if that’s all right. It’s just about love that anybody who’s good at anything they got there because of love. And so that’s all I just want to say that even in the technology world if you’re going to be good at something love has to be present. LinkedIn, Dave Zaboski at LinkedIn is probably the best place to connect with me.

Maria Ross 38:47

Awesome. Thank you so much, Dave. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or colleague. You can find me on Instagram at Red slice Maria would love to hear from you. And you can follow me there for all the latest shenanigans. But until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathyedge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Marly Q Casanova: The Currency of Kindness & How to Avoid Burnout

People often confuse empathy and kindness so I spend many a keynote or leadership training session debunking the myths of empathy. My guest today, Marly Q Casanova, or Marly Q as she is known, is “Miami’s Top Kindness Influencer” whose talks and events have inspired thousands of people of all ages to be more kind to themselves, each other, and the world since 2010. Today we talk about the difference between kindness and empathy, how empathy is a superpower, and why the currency of kindness actually helps drive action and influence. Marly shares tips on setting boundaries and avoiding burnout when being an empathetic and kind leader.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

If you can be a kind leader, you are able to use empathy as your secret weapon to connect and make a difference with your team, your customers, and those in your community.
You must take care of yourself and check in with yourself to ensure you don’t burn out as you perform acts of random kindness to those around you.
You need to be aware of what your priorities are and where you are putting your focus. If you are aware of what is most important, it allows you to put your time there and unapologetically support yourself.

“If you feel frustrated that you are too busy to focus on what actually matters to you. I’m here to kindly tell you, you are really busy being unaware and stressing yourself out!”

— Marly Q Casanova

Episode Reference:

Off the Clock: Feel Less Busy While Getting More Done by Laura Vanderkam

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About Marly Q Casanova: Kindness Influencer

Marly Q Casanova is “Miami’s Top Kindness Influencer” whose talks and events have inspired thousands of people of all ages to be more kind to themselves, each other, and the world since 2010.

This Tedx speaker is a successful social entrepreneur and first-generation Hispanic American living her best life in sunny South Florida as a happy mom and wife to 6x EMMY award-winning musician and co-founder of PARK Project Inc; a nonprofit movement to inspire people to “PARK” (Perform Acts of Random Kindness) worldwide.

As an inspirational speaker, leadership trainer, community-builder and host of Time to be Kind with Marly Q podcast, she’s on a quest to enrich lives with the currency of kindness, connection and community!

Connect with Marly Q Casanova:

MARLY Q LLC: marlyq.com

Time to Be Kind Podcast: marlyq.com/podcast/

YouTube: youtube.com/@marlyQ

LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marlyq/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/themarlyq

Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/marlyq

Facebook Group: http://www.facebook.com/kindqrew

TEDxTalk: Kindness is Your Superpower: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu0FRPYD7aU

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast & book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria & her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, Mam, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. People often confuse empathy and kindness. And I spend many a Keynote or leadership training session debunking the myths of empathy. My guest today Marley Q. Casanova, or Marley Q, as she’s known, is Miami’s top kindness influencer, whose talks and events have inspired 1000s of people of all ages to be more kind to themselves each other, and the world since 2010. Today, we talk about the difference between kindness and empathy. How empathy is a superpower, and why the currency of kindness actually helps drive action and influence. Marley shares tips on setting boundaries and avoiding burnout while being an empathetic and kind leader. Marlee Q is a TEDx speaker and a successful social entrepreneur and first generation Hispanic American living her best life in sunny South Florida. As a happy mom and wife to a six time Emmy award winning musician. She’s the co founder of Park Project, a nonprofit movement to inspire people to park perform acts of Random Kindness worldwide, which she talks about today. This was a great one take a listen. Marley cue Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, we finally made this happen. Yes. Hi.

Marly Q Casanova 02:26

I’m so happy to be here. Thank you. Okay,

Maria Ross 02:29

so we talked in the intro that you are known as Miami’s top kindness influencer. And I am dying to know a little bit about your story, what brought you to this work on empathy and kindness? And how you got to do the work you do and why you’re so passionate about it.

Marly Q Casanova 02:48

Thank you for that question. You know, I identify as a kindness influencer, right. So when people ask me, what do you do? I answer. I’m a kindness influencer. And that normally leads to more questions like, Tell me more, or I love that, right. So to take it back to where this started, I really only put that hat on of kindness influencer, shortly after the pandemic, right, let’s call it pre pandemic, I was running an event consulting company. And I’ve been planning events since I was in high school. So planning community building events, bringing people together, to inspire them and influence them to be kind and unite around the causes that they care about. And, you know, 20 years of event planning, we’ll do a number two, yeah. stressed, I get nervous. Yes. And you know, that together with the super stressful time that we were all experiencing in 2020. And me losing my event business. In essence, in a day, all the events canceled, I was pregnant at that time. So I had like this super awareness of the amount of stress that I was experiencing. And the last thing that I wanted to do was flood my body with stress hormones and cortisol and hurt my baby in any way. So I really took that time to be kind and empathetic with myself and the reality of the situation. And I think a month later, I started the podcast, I started a podcast called time to be kind with Marley Q. I switched my entire business from in person events over to virtual, I started doing speaking and leadership training, community building all virtually and it just kind of launched me in this not really a new direction, but a much more clear one, right? If I’m going to be, you know, alive in this time and space, and I want to be connected to what I feel is my calling. I’m like, you know, I’m a kindness influencer. And it was really easy to put that hat on and tell people nobody was surprised because I’ve been doing this work since I was 10 years old. I really feel that I found my calling to express kindness and the value that it has in our culture in our community in our workplaces. Since I was 10. I think I was really really blessed to find that calling so young. I love that so much and I love

Maria Ross 04:59

that you built a career out of a value that’s so important to you, like so many of us don’t have that opportunity. And we should be making our decisions based on our values and setting our goals based on our values. Maybe not should maybe I suggest that we make our goals and our decisions based on our values. But so talk to us a little bit about when I do my talks, one of the myths of empathy that I bust over and over again, is that empathy is not about being nice. Those are two separate things. So tell us as the kindness influencer, what do you see as the big differences between empathy and kindness? Yes, what

Marly Q Casanova 05:39

a great question and really getting to the root of it. Right? I really feel that kindness is the foundation of what makes us human. Right, I think it is what unites us as a standard. Right and one mankind. So I actually think that kindness is like the first step, if you will, or the first, you know, the foundation of the house, I feel that empathy is a much deeper frequency, and a much more powerful skill, right, that we develop through time and through experiences, as we’re, you know, relating to other people, right? What’s empathy at the end of the day is your ability to feel with people, right, your ability to like, get into someone else’s shoes, right. And I don’t think that you could really do that, without some experience in living, right. So I really do, I come at it from the place of kindness is like the elementary, like the tier one, right? Like, let’s start there. Because once we can exercise that muscle of kindness, which is like expressing love towards humanity towards ourselves, and one another in this world that we share, if we can get that mastered, then it makes it I think, a lot easier to step into empathy and be able to share that experience with others.

Maria Ross 06:56

One also to be able to, not even you know, even if you don’t feel like you’re emotionally connecting with someone being open enough to be able to try to see things from their perspective. And I believe when you take on that perspective of kindness, and quite frankly, love, even in a workplace, even in a business context, it enables you to not be defensive or angry about someone sharing their point of view or sharing their experience with you, you’re able to take it in if you have that foundation of kindness. So I love that I often talk about the fact that, you know, being nice is, you know, you make really good cookies, and you bring them to work. But it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re connecting with me or you’re seeing my point of view. So I love the way you describe kindness as the foundation as the tier one, the gateway, if you will, yes, being empathetic. So you talk about the fact that if kindness is your superpower, then empathy is your secret weapon. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Marly Q Casanova 08:02

Yes, so I believe that kindness is your superpower. These were like the four words that have impacted me I think the most right, I actually delivered a TED Talk back in 2018. When I was three months pregnant, I can’t believe I still did that as I wanted to throw up on stage. And it was the first time I had ever delivered like this super written out speech. And I share that story in the TED Talk. And it’s called the kindness is your superpower. If if listeners are interested in I’m gonna link to it in the show notes for sure. Yeah, super fun. So you know, and when I was 10 years old, that’s when I discovered that kindness was my superpower. And what really made a difference is when I, my teacher told me this, I believed her, I’m like, wow, that’s my superpower. And I just have to exercise it. And I can change the world. Like, I don’t need money, I don’t need to graduate from school, I don’t need to have lived here to have a pretty house, I can just be kind. And this can make a difference. So first, I think believing that really made a difference and set me on a path that I’m on today. And I thank my teacher all the time for that she was actually in the audience. When I delivered my TED talks, I found her I’m like, sit here so that I can appreciate you for being the spark. And I think that like I said, once you if you believe that kindness is your superpower, and you exercise this, then empathy is like the secret weapon. Hey, because if we’re talking about business and leadership, even in your own home leadership in your own home and in your community, if you can be a kind leader, then exactly like you said, your team, or the community that you serve, or your clients, you are able to use, use empathy as your secret weapon to really like connect and make a difference with people like forever, right? Because when I think about back to my teacher, it wasn’t just the kindness that she had to speak to me and share with me those words. She had empathy. And I think that was a secret weapon. Like she got down on her knee and she looked me in the eye and she’s like, she understood why I was sad as a 10 year old, right? And she’s like, Hey, that was empathy. And I didn’t realize that I was empathy at 10 years old. But all these years later when I look back hack. I’m like how empathy was a secret weapon that I believe made me believe that kindness was my superpower. So I just think that if people were to believe that I that you have this superpower within you that could really change and transform your experience of life, right? If your goal isn’t to like change the world, and you don’t have these big philanthropic dreams, that’s cool. Kindness is still your superpower in your everyday life, right. And in business, I call it the currency of kindness, like, kindness will make you rich in every aspect of your life, right? Especially in business if you employ kind leadership, right? And you go there and are empathetic with your team, right and really feel this human experience together. I really think it’s a secret weapon.

Maria Ross 10:46

I love that. Well, I would love to switch gears a little and talk about the work that you’ve done as co founder of Park Project, which is a nonprofit movement to inspire people to perform acts of Random Kindness worldwide. What are some of the things the organization has done? What have you helped people to achieve?

Marly Q Casanova 11:04

Oh, that’s so great. So this year, we’ll be celebrating our 13th anniversary. So we’re teenagers this year, that’s exciting. And in those 13 years, some of the things that stand out to me are like, our first big event was our 5k freedom run and park festival. This was hosted on the 10th anniversary of 911. Right, an event that was obviously tragic, and historic for all of us, right? And we decided myself, my boyfriend at that time, my family and a small group of volunteers to come together and create this 5k to remember, honor and celebrate our servicemen and women, right? How can we do something to commemorate this day, in a positive and meaningful way and unite our community to park to perform acts of random kindness. And I just, I still to this day, think of that event, and how what a miracle and what a feat, and what a display of grassroots and Community and Civic Engagement, all the things that just fire me up, right, we were able to in under three months, not just produce the event, right? I did mention that I was an event creator. And I’ve been doing this for a long time. So I kind of knew what I was doing on the event side. But what was really special about is we had absolutely no social media presence actually joined Facebook and Instagram, like a month before that event. We had no email list, right? We had no sponsors, I had just started my business. So I had no like connections really to pull from. And we had over 600 participants come to that event. And we raised $13,000 for local nonprofits, right, that event transformed into something way bigger, called the 5k. Park fest. We did that for a couple of years. And we raised over $50,000 for dozens of local small to mid sized nonprofits in South Florida. This was all volunteer driven, this was all like, motivated by kindness. And it was truly one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever been a part of. I love your

Maria Ross 12:54

stories, because it’s showing the power of action that had hums from kindness and empathy. And there’s so many people who shy away from showing empathy or kindness, especially in the workplace, because they think it’s weak because they think it’s people are going to walk all over them. But the power to ignite and roll people into a cause, whether it’s a nonprofit, cause whether it’s like a big project in your organization,

Marly Q Casanova 13:22

whether it’s a meeting on Friday, but you want to sort of get excited about it.

Maria Ross 13:26

Exactly. It’s such a lever that will ignite people around you to take action. And I think we dismiss it too easily as something that’s Oh, it’s nice to have, and it’s fluffy, and we’re all going to sit around and sing Kumbaya and we’re not actually going to accomplish anything. I think about the workplaces I’ve been in where I’ve had super empathetic bosses where we’ve had a kind culture even just within our team, maybe not even the company at large. And the the amazing things we were able to do the amazing performance that we drove because we were fueled by that. And I just think it’s such an underestimated lever that leaders can pull and not to manipulate. But just to say, you know, this is a way to engage more people in whatever it is that you’re trying to get them to do.

Marly Q Casanova 14:22

Kindness is the ultimate influencer and when I say I’m you know Miami’s go to or when I start quoting that I Miami’s go to or Manny’s top kindness influencer, it’s really to get the attention that you listening you Maria, you and I we are kindness influencers and what we need more of is more kindness influencers, because that’s what influences people and why because it speaks to the core of who we are. Right. So it’s easy, quote, unquote, to motivate people when you’re speaking directly to what matters to them. Right. So that first year event was I set the cause, right, it’s 911. And it’s for our servicemen and women and their families. The other events the five kids Artfest is what cause do you care about? You tell me, what is it? Is it hungers and homelessness? Is it cancer? Is it children? Is it this that then participate for that than 5k? Was it for like running and athleticism, the 5k was for five kind acts. And each station was a different act of kindness that people can perform. And it was just unlimited. Wonderful, beautiful display. And you know, that year, the last year that I hosted that was October of 2016. And I burned out. I mean, I burnt out many times, throughout the almost 15 years that I’ve been a solo entrepreneur, right? I’ve burned out many times. But that year, hate October of 2016, I burned out, complete exhaustion, physical, emotional, spiritual, I was just done. And I think when I look back, I’ve recovered now I still see I’m a retired and recovering event planner, still retired and recovering from that. Yeah, but um, I think when I look back, I really felt I felt hurt. I felt that, you know, we, as a community, and as volunteers were putting on such a big effort for the community. And in October of 2016, remember that political climate not so different from what we’re living now? Right? People were like, flying off to storm to the Capitol for the historic protests. And people are, you know, all of this was going on, right? And I’m like, Hey, where are we supporting all the anti protests and all the anti things that we’re not supporting, like, people that are doing the pro love the pro kindness and creating more of what we want in this world, I suppose just in this place where I just felt hurt, right. And I guess I didn’t feel a lot of empathy from the community and the nonprofits and the people that I wished to serve. And I just like, shut down for a while. And I kind of went into my own little cave. And I’m like, going, it’s time to be kind to myself, and show all this kindness and empathy that is outward focus my entire life. Because I’m a Parker, I’m a person that performs acts of random kindness. That’s my acronym for the people in my organization are Parker’s people that perform acts of kindness, we are usually like that, right? We’re other focused and all in service. And what I learned, at least in my own journey, is that if you’re not willing to express that same level of kindness and empathy towards yourself, and what you’re going through, it’s really not going to be sustainable, right, you’re not going to be sustainable. So I really am grateful for that really difficult experience in 2016. And having come up from that, I’m really back now normal mama to life is completely different. Right? But now I have boundaries. Right? So we’re talking about kindness and empathy and the importance of boundaries here. Right. I

Maria Ross 17:35

think that was one of the key things that I started to establish around my philanthropic desires. Well, I want to dive into that a little bit more, because I think that is a common issue with people that leaders especially that do practice empathy, and practice, kindness is number one, they burn out. And number two, they might struggle to set boundaries. So can you give us some tips about how you continue to do the work that you do? And avoid burnout? What are you doing for yourself? What are some of the practices if you can share? And what kinds of boundaries do you set that you have found have been really effective to keep your well full, so you can continue to act with kindness, but that protect the things that need protecting? Because I think this is a common issue I hear from leaders. And it’s why I’m working on my next book, which is about how to remain empathetic while still setting boundaries and avoiding burnout. So since I’ve got you, let’s talk about that a little bit, because I think that’s going to be really valuable for listeners.

Marly Q Casanova 18:39

Yes, yes. It’s so valuable, because it is a continual practice, right? I want to make sure that I’m not coming on here and seeming like I’m on some pedestal or I’ve reached like the summit of, you know, mental health and wellness here, right. But I have done the work, I have done quite a bit of healing work and personal development work and making the time to actually consider what are my needs, right. So the same way that I consider everybody else, right? And just considering myself and my own needs. So it’s really if step one is Pause, pause and make that time for you. For you. Is it a planning workshop? Is it a retreat? Is it you know, the alone time somewhere? Is it a trip to the beach, whatever it is for you, where you can give yourself some time and space? To settle? Right your own mind and ask some pretty key questions, right? Like, what is most important to me right now? Right? Because what’s most important to me right now is different than what was most important to me in 2016, right when I burned out, right? So it’s this continual process of checking in with you and what’s most important to me, what am I focused on most right now? What are my my desires around time? Right? Like, how do I want to feel? When I think about my day and my schedule and what I have to do, right, what do I want my experience to would be. So it’s just a few like key questions that I asked myself and that I go through when I sit with my clients and like, say, Okay, we feel overwhelmed right now before we hit burnout. Let’s take a look at what’s on deck what’s on the plate, right? Because if you look at what’s on the plate, we forget to take care of, we’re just focused on everything that’s on our plate, we forget to take care of the plate that’s holding all the things on the plate, right? So if that analogy, or that idea helps to think about it, that’s what I would say is a good first strategy is think about, what does the plate need, so that it’s strong enough to hold all the things that you have on it?

Maria Ross 20:36

And I’m curious, tactically, how do you do that? Do you make time every week that you do a check in with yourself? How do you manage that so that you’re continually checking in with yourself and giving yourself that time?

Marly Q Casanova 20:49

That’s a great question. So I think that when you don’t have this habit of checking in with yourself, right, which I did not have any kind of concept of self care. Back then I had no self care practice, right? So you can’t take on like all these changes at once, right? That’s why it’s a continual like process. For me. As far as my planning time I plan. I’m a planner, a little bit of a master planner. So I do this all the time. But every week, what I want to accomplish, what is my most important thing that I want to accomplish this week? I limited to three, right? Like, what are the three most important things no more than that? And on a daily basis, like what are the three things that I must accomplish today, no matter how many appointments I have, no matter how many emails I get, no matter how many calls, but are like what is the key most important thing? And then to if I’m having a really like awesome achievement day, right? But I actually plan every week for the week. And every day. I look at my calendar is like, yeah, very, very important to me. You take that moment. Yeah. And I think it like we get so caught up in all the to dues that actually has to be the first to do it the other day, because we what we practice is like putting out the fires, right? Well, we practice is we wake up in the morning, our feet hit the floor, we’re like, let’s go. And we have you have kids, you gotta like get them dressed, and get them to school and get them fed. And if you have a job, you got to go and get traffic going, like whatever your routine is, for the day, you still have time to be kind to yourself, like this is the message you got time. Everyone’s like, Oh, I’ve got time, you got time. And I’m gonna give you my perspective on time that I hope helps. It’s an acronym ready for an acronym? Can I drop one? Yeah. So time is an acronym for this is my experience, or this is my excuse. So once we begin to relate with our time, like, the time that you have is this moment in time? And how do you want to experience your time here, like when you have a very clear understanding of why you’re here, you don’t know how much time you have. So there’s a sense of urgency, right to do the things that you wish to do. And if you have an understanding that you’re never going to have enough time to check off all the boxes and do all the things and clear out all the emails in the inbox and handle every single little thing, you are never going to have, quote unquote, have enough time to do all the things. But you always you always got time to do the things that are most important to you. And your that is the acronym for gift of time. So when I say I got time, it’s a very empowering statement to me, because I used to be the person that lied. It’s a toxic lie to tell yourself, I don’t have time for people. I don’t have time for that. I don’t have time. Yes, you do. You got time for what you say is most important to you. And then you decide to not make time for the things that aren’t. And what we need to do is just be a little more honest with what is actually most important to us and make sure you got time for that. Right. And then you realize that you actually can make time for all the other things to without sacrificing what is most important to you.

Maria Ross 23:59

Absolutely, I’ve changed my whole narrative around time after reading a book, which I will link to in the show notes that the name is escaping me, but it was life changing. And it was about us stopping the narrative to ourselves that I don’t have time. I don’t have time I’m too busy. Because we are constantly making decisions about how we’re prioritizing that time. Right? And if I don’t have time for something, it’s either a I’ve forgotten about it, which is very likely or be I maybe subconsciously decided it wasn’t as important to me as I thought it was. And I have to look at that and say why? Because then if I start to argue with myself and say, of course it’s important to you, then I have to think about why I’m not making the time but we but even just going into my day going I’ve got enough time I’ve got enough time it actually helps me look at my to do list with more clarity and say I’ve got enough time because actually these three things I don’t have to do today. I can do those things two days from now and I can put that in my calendar to do that. Stan, but we get so caught up in that narrative that that’s what burns us out, honestly really

Marly Q Casanova 25:05

does. It really does. And when we’re talking about empathy and trying to, you know, elevate or amplify our ability to be more empathetic, in our home, in our workplaces, and in the world, even that, right, how does it feel when someone says, or someone feels that you got time for them? Like? Yes, like when someone feels that they can, you know, give me a call to talk about what they need to talk about? Because that that is kindness, it’s like you are, you have made a, an energy field around you that lets other people know, you can come you can come here and talk to me, I got time. Right. So I really think that just flipping that narrative, you know, and if the acronym helps, right, give yourself time, I love that it’s so great, because it is really is the truth, all we have is the gift of this time. Well, and

Maria Ross 25:50

also, you know, that’s the excuse that that many leaders who are over worked and burning out, say when it’s like, oh, now I have to make time to be empathetic. Now I’ve got to make time to get to know all of my people on my team at a personal level, yes, because it’s actually going to save you time in the long run, not every time make that investment. Now, you’re going to be much better at collaborating, you’re going to get more done. And it’s not about doing it. So you are producing more. But putting that you know, planting those seeds, making that investment, whatever analogy you want to use, will actually in the long run make you more successful. So we think we don’t have time for empathy and kindness at work, but we absolutely have to make the time. Absolutely, absolutely. I

Marly Q Casanova 26:36

usually say You know, when people say I’m too busy, I actually share these toxic lies. So the lie about the time was one, I’m gonna draw another one just because it’s aligned here. When people say you’re too busy, right? So if you’re out there, and you’re guilty of this lie, so is I too busy, too busy. I’m too busy. I’m so busy. Oh my goodness. If you feel that you are too busy, to actually prioritize You, yourself care what’s most important to your goals or your family? Like if you feel frustrated that you are too busy to focus on what actually matters to you. I’m here to kindly tell you, you are really busy being unaware and stressing yourself busy being unaware and stressing yourself. Because if we had the awareness, which is why I said Step one is to pause and actually take audits right asleep, be aware of my fresh frustrated about what are actually care about what are the priorities, what are the goals and prioritize that, then you wouldn’t feel right. You wouldn’t be unaware of stressing yourself, you’d be super aware that you’re supporting yourself, right, which is the other busy being unapologetically supporting yourself, you can be busy being unapologetically supporting yourself, right? So when I say I’m too busy to go to lunch, or I’m too busy for the happy hour, or I’m too busy for, you know, to go to the beach on Sunday, for example. And it’s because I’m being unapologetically supporting yourself, right? That feels good. When you say I’m real busy, because I’m focused on my family or my goals or my whatever I’ve got going on. Right. But you’re just saying on automatic. I’m too busy. I don’t got time. You’re just seeing unaware and stressing yourself and we need to pause and take stock, because that’s the road to burnout. That unawareness.

Maria Ross 28:18

So good. So good. One last question. What do you say about people who have trouble balancing the personal with too personal especially at work? So they exude kindness. They’re trying to be empathetic. But they can’t set those boundaries, they end up losing themselves in another person’s challenges issues. What do you tell people? And what do you do for yourself to set those boundaries so that you’re doing it in a loving way?

Marly Q Casanova 28:47

So I hope this sounds loving, you know, but now I have a practice of when people are coming to me with things, and I used to be someone that would like, really take it on and now Yes, sleep at night. And now I’m really worried about like you and your right, which is like empathy. There’s got to be a boundary with that, right? Because when I get home, I don’t want to like feed that to like my husband or my kids. Right? I want to leave that there because that’s yours, but I held space for it. Right? So how can we do both? I asked a question. Do you need support or a solution? That’s how I protect my boundary. Because I sometimes would fall to the notion that if someone’s sharing, like their troubles with me, then that means they’re looking to me for you know, solving ice or to solve it in a way and I love solving problems. Actually, our human brain loves solving problems, right? And that would be like a pitfall that I would get into is I’m, I’m listening I’m holding space and being empathetic, but then I’m offering advice that’s really unsolicited, or I’m trying to take the sound like well, I can connect you to so and so. And really what I found by practicing this is that most people just want you to support them. They just want to feel that you You are holding space with whatever challenging thing they want to share with you. And that’s, that’s really all you needed to do. They just want someone

Maria Ross 30:08

to listen. Yeah, they just sometimes that’s all that they need. I love that. So what is the question? Say it again for us?

Marly Q Casanova 30:15

Is that do you? Are you looking for support or a solution? I love that this support or solution so that I know. And I can prepare myself like, okay, great. Here we go support.

Maria Ross 30:25

Right solution, okay, I’m in like a different like mode in my brain, right? And maybe if they say they’re looking for solution, you can actually then set that boundary of okay, I want to help you with that. I can’t help you with that right now. But let’s schedule a time because that’s going to be a deeper conversation.

Marly Q Casanova 30:40

Exactly. And that’s where boundaries come in. Right? Like just because someone else has, I don’t know, send you an email or has popped at your door, or has decided to text you does not mean that die or emergency

Maria Ross 30:52

is not necessarily my emergency. Yeah.

Marly Q Casanova 30:57

And there’s this really, I mean, I don’t think it’s I don’t know who to quote here. But when I did event planning, right, it was your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency you see on my part,

Maria Ross 31:07

I know I’ve heard that too. I mean, that’s so true.

Marly Q Casanova 31:09

This is a little tricky when we’re talking about like empathy, but in kind of like, you can make the parallel there like, just because right now you’re under fire doesn’t mean that, like, I need to go into the fire with you. I can be like, Oh, my goodness, right now, do you need a phone call right now? Can I call you at six for exact Right? Right, right. Oh, my goodness, like you have the power to be there to be empathetic. And also consider your own needs in this right? Like, how much time do you have to dedicate to this? This? Oh, my goodness, I definitely want to be here for you. I’ve got about like five minutes, does a phone call for five minutes? Like help? Or can I call you like later this weekend? Right? Because I’ve got an event on Friday. Right? Is this an emergency you need support with right now? Or can I make time next week? You can do that? Right? What happens is we don’t have the practice of setting these boundaries and communicating them. So it feels like we’re doing something wrong, where it’s not okay, it is totally okay. And you know what, people appreciate it. They respect it. And thus, maybe now, like, for example, somebody calls me I got 9pm. Since I became a mom of two, I have a two year old and a four year old. And I am not available. No, not at all. At all. After like, I put my kids to bed for nobody, unless there’s some kind of emergency. Right? Hey, and I had a really kind, you know, friend who called me and you’d call like, repeatedly until I picked up and one day for nothing other than just to talk, which is nice. And I normally like would but not ran boundaries now. Like I’m not speaking to anybody after 9pm Because I need to recharge. Right? So it was actually picked up the phone is super kindly like hey, so and so. I see that you’ve caught me presents. Are you okay? Is everything all right? Well, yeah, I just want to create, listen, I can talk to you tomorrow. And I definitely want to let you know as a friend, like, I’m not available after 9pm ever. Unless it’s an absolute emergency. Right? If you need me and I can solve a problem for you immediately. That’s when you can call me after 9pm. Okay, cool, and never happen again. Maybe it was a little uncomfortable, right? You don’t want to tell people but no. So you already called me a couple times after 9pm. So make I gotta put the brakes on that. That’s not okay. Yeah, yeah. And it doesn’t make me unkind. And it doesn’t make me a bad person. It

Maria Ross 33:12

doesn’t matter. I’m not empathetic. It makes me somebody that has boundaries, right. And I’m trying to myself now. So sometimes people get confused that you can set boundaries and make tough decisions. The empathy and the kindness is the how, you know what I mean? It’s how you go about communicating it or doing it. It doesn’t mean just, you know, I’m a kind person, I would never tell somebody they shouldn’t call me after nine. No, that’s the action. The kindness is in how you deliver the message. Right? And most of the time, people are fine with it. Yes. I can be super kindly, assertive. Yes, exactly. Kindly, confident, right? confidently. Empathetic is what I call it for leaders because you can make a really tough business decision. Something that you can’t change your mind about, just because someone else might want you to like a layoff or having to come back into the office or whatever it is. But you can do it with empathy by really understanding and listening to people and sharing their concerns. It doesn’t mean you’re necessarily going to change that policy. Correct. So yeah, my policy sticks no afternoon via a call after night. All right, I love this so much. And before we go, I want you to explain to us, you go by Marley Q What is the Q stands for? Love this question. So my birth name, right? I

Marly Q Casanova 34:32

am a daughter of Cuban immigrants, right? I’m a first generation Hispanic American. My birth name is Madeline. They like it. Dad. Kinkos says, This is my name. So as you may imagine, I grew up with a lot of people not being able to pronounce my name, right. And then in sixth grade, I remember this beautiful teacher said she was having trouble saying my name. And she’s like, can I call you Marley Q. It’s kind of like Suzie Q it’s bubbly. It’s kind This sounds like you. And I feel like honestly, for the first time in my life, I felt like I heard my name. I love that. Yes, you can call me Marley Q. That’s great. And I started going by that, like, it’s my nickname. Uh huh. And once I finally started my business, and and decided to become a personal brand and all of that jazz, I’m like, Alright, I’m gonna own it. My business is Marley que ella, lovey. And now the queue is really like my middle name. Right? So I changed my name legally to Marley Q. Casanova is my married name. I got serious name upgrade. And the queue now I just I joke and say that it’s sad that it stands for questions. So Marley cue cue for questions. I love it. And I get that question a lot.

Maria Ross 35:39

That’s great. I love it so much. Well, thank you so much for your insights today, super helpful to so many leaders who are struggling right now trying to be there for their teams, but also having to make some tough decisions about the business about the industry, the market that we’re in right now. So I think this was super valuable. We were gonna have all your links in the show notes. But for folks on the go, where’s the best place? They can learn more about you or connect with you?

Marly Q Casanova 36:04

Absolutely. So friends, LinkedIn is a great place. I’m at Marley Q Mar LYQ, or Instagram at Marley Q. And of course, my website, Marley q.com. And you have a kind crew on Facebook. Yes, yes. So my kind crew so Parker’s listening. If you identify as a person that performs acts of random kindness, I consider you part of my kind crew. And you can find our the link in the show notes to request access to join our private Facebook group. It’s a community of 300 plus beautiful Parkers that are all in their own way influencing kindness worldwide. Love it. And just for folks that are on the go, I’m going to tell them it’s kind QEWQ are on WW sorry, crew. Wonderful. Well, thanks, Marley for the conversation and for the work that you’re doing in the world. We appreciate you. Same same. Thank

Maria Ross 36:52

you so much, Maria. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked it, you know what to do, rate and review and share it with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Dr. Peter Sear: What Elite Sport Teaches Us About Empathic Leadership

Athletes and legendary coaches from sport are often cited by leaders to motivate, inspire, and pull together as a team. But how many leaders actually practice and employ the skills these high-achievers leverage to be successful? In today’s sports landscape, coaches who have embraced emotional intelligent approaches are scoring points and building dynasties. And corporate leaders have a lot to learn from them.

Today, Dr. Peter Sear and I talk about how sport leadership has changed and become more empathic over the last two decades – thus attracting a different kind of leader. We discuss how coaches manage empathic relationships and get the balance of “close but not too close” right. Peter also shares the concept of Empathic Accuracy and tips for how to help your team build empathy among each other.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

It is important to find and keep the balance between coach and athlete. The same thing goes for employers and employees.
Nothing beats getting to know someone on a human level.
In modern workplaces, it is important that leaders model and show empathy to their teams.

“The ‘my way or the highway’ approach that coaches often used to apply just doesn’t work with athletes of this generation. They’ve got different expectations and different powers.”

— Dr. Peter Sear, Founder, Empathic Minds

About Dr. Peter Sear, Founder Empathic Minds

I started off as a Futures Floor Trader, trading sugar futures in London, for five years. I traveled before going to University aged 23, to study psychology. That led to my first Masters degree, during which I opened a property company with my parents. I continued to study, getting another Masters, in Jung, and learning some neuroscience. I’ve worked in many roles, including as a commissioned artist. My PhD was at Loughborough (the best University in the world for sport related research!). Since then, I’ve written for Psychology Today, The World Financial Review among others. I now help coaches, leaders, organizations, consultancies, and individuals learn about the powers of empathy and how to develop them.

Connect with Dr. Peter Sear:

The Empathic Minds Organisation: https://empathicminds.org/

Book: Empathic Leadership: Lessons from Elite Sport

https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9781003324676/empathic-leadership-peter-sear

X: https://twitter.com/DrPeterSear

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-peter-sear-em-3b226096/

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Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

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Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Athletes and legendary coaches from sport are often cited by leaders to motivate, inspire and pull together as a team. But how many leaders actually practice and employ the skills that these high achievers leverage to be so successful? In my personal experience, I’ve seen leaders who idolize the sports and coaching legends, only to never heed any of their advice on team building, empathy and motivation. But I digress. In today’s sports landscape coaches who have embraced emotional intelligent approaches are scoring points and building dynasties, and corporate leaders have a lot to learn from them. Today, my guest is Dr. Peter Cyr, founder of empathic minds, and a consultant to head coaches and leaders. And we talk about what elite sport can teach you about empathic leadership. Peter started off as a futures floor trader, trading sugar futures in London, but then left to study psychology and earned a few master’s degrees, including one in neuroscience. He earned his PhD from an I know I’m gonna pronounce this wrong, Loughborough the best university in the world for sport related research, and did much of his work around the psychology of elite sport champions. He now helps coaches leaders, organizations, consultancies and individuals learn about the power of empathy and how to develop it. Today, we talk about how sport leadership has changed and become more empathic over the last two decades, thus attracting a different kind of leader. We discuss how coaches manage empathic relationships, and getting the balance of close but not too close, right. Peter also shares the concept of empathic accuracy, and tips for how to help build your team’s empathy with each other. This was such an enlightening episode, take a listen. Big welcome Peter Singer to the empathy edge podcast. Thanks for joining us today.

03:13

Thank you very much. It’s great to be here.

Maria Ross 03:15

So I’m so intrigued and curious about your work with looking at empathetic leadership lessons from elite sport. And your book title, as we mentioned, is called the empathic leadership lessons from elite sport. And you’ve been doing this work for a while, tell us a little bit about your story and how you got into this work of consulting around empathy, but consulting with head coaches, as well as corporate executives and other professionals. Okay,

Dr. Peter Sear 03:45

so it was off the back of my PhD into empathic leadership. I’d studied psychology and from various angles, step psychology and a little bit of neuroscience as well. And I’d always been really interested in emotions as drivers of behavior. And empathy seemed to bring all of that together. So when it came to looking at a choice of subjects to PhD in sport was my other interest. And I tried to get as many interests into a PhD as possible, because everybody told me that that’s what you need to do to stay sane. And so I approached Loughborough University, because this considered the best university for sports related subjects. And I had the idea of empathic leadership in sport and they loved it, and they said, you can start when you want. So I did that for four years. The end of it was during the start of the pandemic, which obviously gave a little bit of very interesting yeah. And then, since then, I just started getting approached by different head coaches and people who are doing the coaching badges in various sports, because a lot of them found, though getting taught a lot of the practical skills of coaching and the technical stuff, where there was a gap there with the psychological areas and Did you know empathy been a quiet buzzword of the moment and somebody that had heard about in other industries, they wouldn’t know why we got into this. And I noticed, for example, during my PhD research, the Football Association in England, had nothing on their website on their coaching badges about empathy. And then during that, I approached them a couple of times, and still didn’t really hear much back then. But then all of a sudden, I had a page whole page of empathy and spool, and then the in football, so there was sort of progression guide on the whole time through my PhD. And more and more people are interested in I’ll get approaches from all different sports.

Maria Ross 05:39

Oh, well, I can see that. And I love that you have this perspective that sport leadership has become more empathic over the last two decades, and it’s attracting a different kind of leader, which is interesting, because as someone who is not in the sporting world, my impression has always been that many successful coaches, whether they call it or empathy, or not, have always sort of brought that aspect of motivating, inspiring, you know, tailoring the way they talk to their team to get the best out of them really caring about their players. That’s always been my impression of the way successful coaches have operated. But you’re saying that that’s actually been a shift. Can you talk to us about that shift.

Dr. Peter Sear 06:18

Roughing is interesting, the way you phrase that question, successful coaches, and I think there have been a lot of successful coaches that have had success by coaching in that way. And I think there were other coaches who had success coach in a different way. But that way, is just unacceptable by athletes. Now, the my way, or the highway approach that coaches often use to apply, it just doesn’t work with athletes of this generation. They’ve got different expectations, they’ve got different, that it’s a different world as well, but they’ve got more powers, athletes, athletes have got more ability to move clubs, etc. So it’s a matter of retaining talent. If you don’t want to lose people, you can’t treat them badly anymore.

Maria Ross 07:00

Well, and it’s funny, I’m laughing, as you’re saying that because you literally could replace the word, you know, coaching and sport with the corporate world. And it’s the same trend. It’s the same trend of employees demanding a different type of workplace. Yeah, really craving a different type of leader that sees, hears and values them, so that they can just innovate and perform and bring their best to work every day. And it’s interesting to see that that’s permeated into the world of sport as well.

Dr. Peter Sear 07:30

Yeah, one of the reasons I chose sport was not not just because I was really into it, because I’d seen that other industries look to sport as a model for leadership. It’s a very transparent industries. Now it’s everywhere. So whatever industry you’re working in, if you talk to somebody, so it’s a common ground that you can discuss sport leadership. And the coaches I spoke to, I interviewed for my research, often compared the way they coach and the way their contemporaries coach with how they were coached when they were athletes themselves. So the change that I talked about was typically over a sort of 20 year period, something like that. And they gave examples like, when, for team selection, for example, the old way might have been to post a piece of paper up on the wall with a table on it, and everybody had to go and look at it a second time. And while they look clearly at the coaches in his car and driving off home before he asked to speak to anybody, now, coaches will often tailor this news individually to athletes, they’ll ask each individual How do you want to know about selection? Do you want me to call you into our mid to the email usually to speak directly to me. And sometimes athletes will choose an email, for example, and then once they’ve calmed down after their reaction, perhaps then go to the coach and say, Can we have a conversation? But other times, they’d like just straight face to face conversations.

Maria Ross 08:56

So that’s super interesting. Can you give us some examples of the power of empathy that we may have seen you talk about the World Cup winners, you talk about Lionel Messi? Give us some examples of empathy and action among high performing teams and players.

Dr. Peter Sear 09:13

Okay, so Argentina won the World Cup in 2022. Their best player everyone would agree is Lionel Messi, the best best footballer in the world over the last 2015 20 years probably. He’s also showed that he’s an empathic leader on the pitch. So I can give you an example of that, as Sergeant seed awaits the World Cup though. Many people’s favorites. The first game the World Cup, they lost to Saudi Arabia, which was a big shock to World Football. And there was a die in their squad that didn’t start that game that was brought into the team for the next guy who played very well. And in the gamemaster that he scored a goal is known as Lex Alexis McAllister. And in the World Cup final itself he set up one of the goals and Argentina won the world cup so he was Part of their transformation as a team during the World Cup. And one of the things that he went through is very interesting before he was played in the team. He was training with the team civically, he was very overbroad about trading with Messi and some of these heroes. And he has Scottish and Irish heritage and he has ginger hair. So a lot of the other players nickname do colo which in Argentina is what they call people with ginger hair, apparently. And Lionel Messi is captain of Argentina saw this was going on in trading, and maybe that it wasn’t good for this athlete. And he said, Well, how do you feel when the other athletes who colo and he said I don’t like it, you know, and that was it. Obviously, Lionel Messi is only gonna say, the way he feels about it’s the rest of his team. Right now. We’ll call him out again, it gets an insane and the rest is history, as they say. So it’s just one example of how the fortunes of a player have changed, and probably his whole confidence and well being has changed and it’s made his World Cup.

Maria Ross 11:04

Wow. Well, in here in the States, we have a great example of an empathetic and Empathic Coach, and that Steve Kerr of the Golden State Warriors. He is known for being incredibly empathetic. And he has created dynasties of championship teams with the Golden State Warriors, and he was part of a championship dynasty with the Chicago Bulls and learned much of his coaching style from Phil Jackson. So followed a similar philosophy I believe he was I might be misspeaking, but I think he was a Zen Buddhist, as

Dr. Peter Sear 11:40

well. I played links for that. Yes. And so positive interview. Yes. And just to say, Dr. Dorsa, who you interviewed, had endorsed fantrip Yes, yeah, he’s podcast. Yeah,

Maria Ross 11:51

definitely. And there’s just this whole philosophy around how he coaches and how he brings out the best in his team. It’s very collaborative. It’s very personal. It’s very emotional, and he genuinely cares about as players and you were saying how, you know, sports analogies are so pervasive in leadership and coming from the corporate world, we were just discussing this, how so many sales leaders and C suite leaders love to quote, coaches loved quote, athletes and talk about building the team. But many of them don’t embody those empathic leadership skills that those coaches practice in order to create such high performing teams. So I’ve always found that very interesting. The irony of the fact that these are people that they’re quoting in terms of their leadership, but they’re not modeling their leadership style. In every case,

Dr. Peter Sear 12:44

I think the one thing sports coaches have been doing in this move towards more empathic solid leadership is they’re becoming very close with their athletes, you can see that physically their relationships, were at the end of a game, the coach will go up and hug all their players, you know, that didn’t happen sort of as much, 20 years ago, there might have been a handshake back then perhaps, my five might be but that was it about its own problems, though. Because if you’re getting really close, and you’re trying to know the athletes as best you can or to understand, and then your empathy can work better, the more knowledge you have than then these close relationships often mean that the balance can go too far that way, and you could become too close. And the dangers of that are obviously that you might become biased in your decision making. Other athletes might think that or get jealous about your relationships together. I’ve got an example of that there was a coach in Australia who had a very successful team. And they won everything they could have won that season. And all of his team, the male athletes that he’s coaching have asked him to go out drinking with him to celebrate, they went out for a few nights in first week after the end of the season. And then they start training the rest of the following season. And the athletes are ringing him up and say no, you’re coming out for a beer tonight. And he says no, that was because we were celebrating so we’re not best friends, you know, you’ve got to draw the line and keep that, that balance that distance that’s necessary between a coach and athlete.

Maria Ross 14:18

And how can leaders do that? How can you see them getting the balance right?

Dr. Peter Sear 14:23

I think it’s really difficult I think, I think people are always going to have preferences for who they will spend time with as well and who they want to talk to so just traveling to away games for example. A lot of coaches I spoke to said that they try to move around the coach or the aeroplane when they’re traveling so that they get to know each individual and find out things they didn’t know about them, you know, what they do in their spare time etc. And that can often create a closer bonds with them. But if they say that they’re doing that with everybody, it stops that blast we’ve been in let jealousy in relationships.

Maria Ross 14:58

And what do you think about You know, you’ve mentioned close but not too close, right? What are some tips or boundaries for leaders to create that boundary? So it doesn’t seem like they’re being inauthentic when they are practicing empathy, but they’re making it very clear that this is a working relationship.

Dr. Peter Sear 15:17

Yeah, I think it is a really difficult challenge people now, I think that the physical relationship is the problems which are magnified. Of course, when you’ve got a male coach from a female team, or, or the opposite. There was a female coach of a national sports team was coaching men. And she found there was already that gender difference created enough of a barrier. And she felt that it was an advantage. She was a woman because the team had been renowned before she started coaching for being a bit too aggressive and feminine qualities brought him down to earth a little bit, and they wouldn’t do certain things in front of her because she was a woman. That was her idea, really, anyway, but I think I did netball coach the other day said to me that it’s not easy to get the judgment, right, she saw one of her athletes in tears, signaled some steps. And she had coached this girl who was near a woman for all through her teenage years. And so she sat down and put her arm around her. But she jumped up as if to say, Why are you touching me? So even when you think you get it, right, it is difficult with the hugging and all sports, all the coaches were saying to me that you’ve got to understand whether that player is happy being how to, you know, you’ve got to know and be able to judge him for that. And you need to really know them well. And it might be somebody who you know, or want to be hugged in a certain situation, but not another situation. So it’s a very difficult thing to get right. Yeah. How

Maria Ross 16:35

can you develop empathy in teams? So you have a coach that’s bringing a very empathic leadership style to a team? How can they shore up empathy among the teammates?

Dr. Peter Sear 16:46

Yeah, that’s a good question. So that that’s one of the goals of the coaches that I spoke, to bring the group closer together, like cohesion in teams is obviously really important. But also, what empathy does it it brings commitment, if you feel that somebody’s empathizing with you, and understanding, then you’re automatically going to be more committed to them, you feel closer, and you’re going to, you know, push a little bit harder for them. So you’re not the coaches were really focused on encouraging this between players in teams. So the kinds of things they do is in that group work, they will ask individuals to volunteer to give biographical stories about where they grew up. If you take a sport like football, soccer, you’ve got, especially in the Premiership, in England, you’ve got players from literally every country in the world, all coming together in sports. And these athletes know nothing about each other’s backgrounds. So just sharing a story about where they’ve come from, what they went through to get where they are, what their parents did for them, things like that, the more they don’t accelerate, it’s more like a family, then isn’t it? If you know the story of the other, then you’re more likely to want to play to each other. And so that’s one thing they do is share back biographical stories, they also did little things like that have small groups of athletes with juice with conversation cubes with real questions. So just to inspire a conversation of anything, so people start bringing their ideas and, and then it gives the athletes the opportunity to see how each of them react to different subjects. And so just increasing the knowledge of other athletes. And they also like to encourage families meeting each other as well. So one of the rugby concepts spoke to have a crash training ground, for example. And they have things like yoga classes and different things for the wives of athletes, so that they all end up knowing each other and it becomes a more cohesive group like that.

Maria Ross 18:46

I love that. And those are great ideas you can apply to any working group. That’s wonderful. Yeah. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about empathic accuracy. You mentioned this in your work. Talk to us about what that term means? And what are the implications of it?

Dr. Peter Sear 19:02

Yes. So it goes back to what I was saying, I suppose about knowing the individual well enough to empathize accurately with. So if you don’t know somebody, then you’re more likely probably to put your own world unto this is that thing about? We say that empathy is walking in somebody else’s shoes, but it’s nice about being that person in their shins for a moment. And I think the more you know, somebody that the easier you can get that right. And I know a lot of organizations in all industries use things like psychometric testing to get to know to understand how they should communicate with people now, but a lot of the coaches I’m speaking to that said that nothing beats really getting to know people on a human level. You know, that’s the real way you can understand somebody and empathize with them. It’s not by the form they’re filled in. So through that ethic accuracy, then you can start to judge how a player might perform in certain situations whether they’re good under pressure, for example, if there’s penalties at the end of the game, who do you will lift up Ah Do other certain players that just won’t respond well to that situation. You can also it gives you a little bit of help with, how do you think they could have progressed in the guidance? Well, that potential, but also because just by reading their body language as well adds to that information. So during the game, so some players naturally look, they know spools naturally look tired. But if you know them, well, it’s just their running style or something like that. So that boy, you know, somebody that more accurately could empathize with them.

Maria Ross 20:31

I love that. Now, one of the concepts I know I’ve been very interested in researching, and I’m hearing from leaders is making sure that empathy is not just a one way street, many leaders are feeling very pressured these days. And those especially that want to be empathic leaders are doing so much work. And yet, they don’t feel like their teams or their employees feel like it’s a two way street. Like, it’s only the leaders responsibility to be empathetic, and not that the empathy needs to be a two way street. So how can you build empathy to go in both directions? So for example, in sport, you can have a very empathetic style with your coach, you’ve talked about ways to build empathy among the team themselves, how can you, quote unquote, teach empathy, so that even team members, players athletes, can have empathy for their leaders as well.

Dr. Peter Sear 21:26

I think empathy is contagious. So I think just by setting the example, other people don’t be more empathic to them, than when athletes see how head coaches treat their colleagues, then they understand how empathic they are, as well. It’s not just about how they treat them. But I think one of the ways they can do it is I was given a lot of examples of when athletes are going through particularly bad times and their personal life and some of that, and if the coach has been through something similar themselves and shares that experience, advises them based on that, then I think that increases trust and probably empathy starts to go the other way as well. Right?

Maria Ross 22:03

Is that an issue that you find in sport, where it’s, the players are sort of like, I’m the player, you need to be empathetic. But I don’t have to show empathy towards others or towards you as my coach? Yeah,

Dr. Peter Sear 22:15

I think one of the things that’s confused that lady as well is that the bigger athletes become in the media, you start to the area is getting blurred. With Who are they really committed to are they’re committed now to their own brand more than they are to the club and the leader? Are they committed to the sport as a whole, or they’re committed to their international career, but not their club career? So there’s a variety of things. But I had leaders, for example, telling me about when an athlete might have done particularly well in the game, but the team lost the athlete and goes home and posts on social media. Did you see how good I was today? And then the rest of the team besides the coach, have you seen what they’ve just posted on here? You know, what does that say, you know, and so it disrupts the harmony of the group. And so it’s really important for coaches to explain to athletes, the damage that can be done through those things. But as I say, it’s, it’s difficult because a lot of athletes, athletes are more worried about how much money they can earn out their own brand, which is often as much as they will gain PayPal and their clubs.

Maria Ross 23:21

Yeah, it is definitely a challenge. And I think it’s now the role of leaders in the modern era, to model and teach empathy to their teams, that’s actually a requirement of the job now. And that has to start with self awareness of their own empathy, and shoring up their own empathic skills before they can model and teach it to others. But I’ve often heard this from from different leaders of, you know, I’m trying so hard to be empathetic to my team, but I’m getting nothing back. I’m getting just entitlement back.

Dr. Peter Sear 23:55

For the athletes in the lot sports as well to be empathic towards their fans. If the fans say the way they behave, and you know, their whole lives are recorded in the media so heavily, they’ll then they’ll send builds them and that creates disharmony as well.

Maria Ross 24:09

Right. Right. And the correlation of that with the corporate world as customers or clients. Yeah, understanding that you actually don’t have you don’t have sport and you don’t have business without that stakeholder group.

Dr. Peter Sear 24:22

Yeah. And it’s not just about disrespecting the fans. In a sport like soccer or football, each club has, has got certain things that are distinct about it. Like there might be a certain playing style that the fans expect, or a certain way of behaving, they’ve come to expect just through their own club story. And they want their continued and if they see an athlete coming in, who goes against that culture, and then it doesn’t fit their group. So it’s really important for the athlete to understand the fan base, as well as their head coach and their colleagues.

Maria Ross 24:58

As we close out, I just Want to ask with your research? And the work that you do? Is there one common thread of successful empathic coaches or leaders that you see over and over and over again?

25:12

What do you mean by common thread,

Maria Ross 25:15

some common trait among them, that helps them be more empathetic?

Dr. Peter Sear 25:21

Yeah, I think I may have mentioned in the beginning, but it’s not only that sport leadership has changed is that it’s attracting a different kind of leader. So I had an ice hockey coach, for example, say to me, that, if the sport was as it was 20 years ago, he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in now, because the role just wouldn’t have suited the sort of person that he is. And he went on to tell me what is important to him. And, you know, the things that are more important to him than trophies, like he gave me an example of that of a young player that you had with him, who had some ability, but he could see that the biggest problem with him was that he just didn’t have the ability to motivate himself to work hard. And so him and the other coach worked with him on this and got him to work hard. And what he did is spread through the rest of his life. So ended up working really hard, and his schoolwork, he became a doctor, got married, didn’t have a career in sport in the end, but he said, when he sees that person now, now successfully, his life has come. He feels, you know, that gives him more of a buzz that actually winning a trophy. I think that sort of symbolizes the kind of coaches we’re seeing, have success these days, because that way of leading may seem like it’s focused on other things other than trophies, but it actually brings the success.

Maria Ross 26:42

Right, right. It follows. And it sounds like from what you’re saying, you see a thread of people willing to mentor other people are willing to look for opportunities to mentor versus just coach and win games.

26:55

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

Maria Ross 26:57

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that’s fascinating. Well, thank you so much, Peter, for sharing these insights with us today, we are gonna have all your links in the show notes. But for folks who are on the move listening to this podcast, where’s the best place they can get in touch with you?

Dr. Peter Sear 27:10

Well, the best thing to do is to buy my book, obviously, I think leadership lessons will explore. I’m also all empathic minds to all and I’m under my name on Twitter, etc. So anyone find me there on LinkedIn.

Maria Ross 27:24

Wonderful. And once again, we’ll have all those links in the show notes. But thank you so much for your time today.

27:30

Really enjoyed it. Thank

Maria Ross 27:31

you. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share this episode with a friend or a colleague. Until next time, please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Teri Schmidt: Empathy-Infused Team Building for Lasting Impact

When I say “team-building” or corporate training, do you say….ugh! Maybe you imagine sitting in a windowless conference room, or enduring an interminable video call that takes you away from the pile of work you need to get done – without offering anything of lasting value?

There’s a better way. And yes, it involves empathy as the key ingredient for turning a team-building event from a one-off transactional experience into a transformative one.

Today, Terri Schmidt and I discuss where most well-intentioned team building goes wrong, how serving others primes your brain to learn new skills, how you can intentionally combine connection, professional development and meaning to get more ROI for your team building efforts – as well as engage and retain Gen Z talent. We have a great discussion on how to build trust and connection in a remote or hybrid workplace – including how she blew my mind with her observation of how we have always interacted with screens in the past and why our struggle to connect over screens now just requires some upskilling and re-learning!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Take the time to gather feedback on what your team is doing well, and also what skills your team needs to strengthen.
Serving and doing good for others primes your brain to learn and retain skills and information better.
Even though remotely is a new environment, you still want to build practical skills and camaraderie with your team.

“We infuse empathy in many different ways. We want to make sure that the team is actually connecting in a way that will impact their performance when they get back to the job.”

— Teri Schmidt

Episode References:

GET YOUR FREE GUIDE! Team Connection: 10 Activities to Connect in 10 Minutes or Less and learn more about these innovative team building and development experiences at https://becomestrongertoserve.com/empathyedgeThe Empathy Edge podcast, Rae Shanahan:The Empathy Gap: 2023 State of Workplace Empathy ReportMaria’s blog post: Can’t Get Your Employees Back to the Office? Here’s Why.

About Teri Schmidt, Director, Stronger to Serve Coaching & Teambuilding

Teri uses her 20+ years of experience in coaching, leadership, and performance improvement to seamlessly integrate teambuilding, leadership development, and community service. Her workshops and coaching cultivate empowered individuals, cohesive teams, and impactful contributions to society.

Teri hosts the Strong Leaders Serve podcast inspiring leaders to make their workplaces more compassionate and just through their leadership, without burning out.

She is an Ironman triathlete and loves to be in nature backpacking, camping, and doing some occasional rock climbing. She currently lives outside of Dallas with her three favorite people, her husband Jeff and her two teenage kids, Tyler and Megan.

Connect with Teri Schmidt:

Stronger to Serve Coaching & Teambuilding https://www.strongertoserve.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/

Learn by Doing (Good) workshops: https://www.strongertoserve.com/teambuilding

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Okay, when I say team building or corporate training, do you say maybe you imagine sitting in a windowless conference room, or enduring an interminable video call that takes you away from the pile of work you need to get done without offering anything of lasting value? There is a better way. And yes, it involves empathy as the key ingredient for turning a team building event from a one off transactional experience into a transformative one. Today, my guest Terry Schmitt shares how intentional team building sessions can help you bond as a team, develop valuable leadership and communication skills, apply those skills immediately to seal in training, and give back to your community all at the same time. Terry is director of stronger to serve coaching and team building and uses her 20 plus years of experience in coaching, leadership and performance improvement, to seamlessly integrate team building leadership, development and community service for workshops and coaching cultivate empowered individuals, and cohesive teams and impactful contributions to society. Terry hosts the strong leaders serve podcast, and is an Ironman triathlete, so she knows about performance. Today, Terry and I discuss where most well intentioned team building goes wrong, how serving others Prime’s your brain to learn new skills, how you can intentionally combine connection, professional development and meaning to get more ROI for your team building efforts. As well as engage and retain Gen Z talent. We have a great discussion on how to build trust and connection in a remote or hybrid workplace, including how she blew my mind with her observation of how we have always interacted with screens in the past. And why our struggle to connect over screens now just requires some upskilling and relearning. This was such a great conversation. Take a listen. Hello, Terry Schmidt Welcome to the empathy edge podcast to talk about empathy and fused team building. I’m very excited to talk to you today.

Teri Schmidt 03:41

Well, thank you for having me, Maria, I’m really looking forward to the conversation as well.

Maria Ross 03:45

So your work is so interesting. Tell us a little bit about your story and how you got into this work. And what what makes you so passionate about it? Yeah,

Teri Schmidt 03:53

definitely, you know, I can trace the start of what I’m doing right now, way back. But I won’t, won’t go too long. But I want to say, you know, I trace it to two factors. So really early in my life, I developed a deep curiosity, and actually became pretty adept at figuring out why people acted in the way that they acted. There are some reasons for that in my upbringing that we can go into if you want, but for now, I’ll just say that, so I became really good at it. In other words, empathy became my superpower. i Yeah, exactly. It’s definitely served me well. And it’s why I’m so passionate about it. And the other thing that really shaped my career choices, and who I am as a person, both based on my faith, and really watching my mom as an elementary school teacher, I began to see how different people were really good at doing different things, and sometimes without even knowing it. And I became so intrigued and inspired by that. And so those two pieces really led me into the world of human development. And you know, my career has taken kind of a winding path. But whether it was when I was living in a homeless shelter as a volunteer coordinator, or when I was in the corporate world, or what I’m doing what I’m doing today, as a leadership coach and team building facilitator, the focus is always on using my talents to help make a way for other people to courageously use theirs.

Maria Ross 05:23

I love that. And I love that you discovered so early that empathy is your superpower. Because I think many of us who learn to embrace that it comes later, we sort of like have to think back at what was the secret sauce of us being able to succeed in that job or connect with that person or, you know, create a relationship with someone that we were told was really, really not you know, you weren’t, you were never going to be able to create a relationship with that person. And, you know, it was only through for me, it was self awareness around the StrengthsFinder, doing the Clifton Strengths Finder and realizing that empathy was one of my top five strengths, because I never would have said that. But then when you unravel that, and I think this is true for a lot of people, and a lot more people than think it’s true for them, and how they relate. Now, there’s

Teri Schmidt 06:07

definitely those of us that we still need to practice and strengthen that empathy muscle. And that’s what I love about your work is it enables people to continue to strengthen that empathy muscle as they go along. So I would love to ask why empathy is such a key ingredient for returning a team building event, which is your specialty, from a one off transactional experience, the thing that makes us roll our eyes and go, Oh, my gosh, can we stop doing this now and get back to work? And turns it into an actually a transformative one a transformative experience that we we take with us beyond? Even possibly that job? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, you know, when leaders are investing in team building experiences, hopefully they are thinking about, I want to get a return on this investment, right, we’re taking people away from the real work, right, and, you know, spending money spending time or two most precious resources. And I think sometimes they just kind of go with, uh, you know, let’s hope we get something out of this. Or hopefully, we’ll have some fun. I wouldn’t say that’s the right way to approach it. Because especially in these current economic times, time, and money is everything. And we want to make sure that you are getting return on your investment. So I think it comes down to the fact that without empathy, there is no connection. And without connection, there’s no teamwork. Sure, you can have a bunch of individuals working side by side, but they’re not really working as a team. And you’re not realizing the enhanced product, enhance productivity, enhanced performance that comes when you are truly working as a team. So in our experiences, we infuse empathy in many different ways. Because we want to make sure that that team is actually connecting in a way that it’s going to impact their performance when they get back to the job.

Maria Ross 08:02

Okay, so tell us about the mistakes, well intentioned people are making, whether they’re HR leaders or employee experience professionals, when they try to do team building exercises, and it turns into a transaction, what are they doing wrong?

Teri Schmidt 08:21

You know, I think it’s just really a lack of intention. It’s a check in the box, it’s we know, we should be taking care of our team, we know we should be giving them some experiences, to have fun to connect, to learn about each other. But if there’s not a whole lot of intention behind it, that’s not going to happen. Sure, you might have some great conversations, some really friendly banter during the event itself. Maybe you learn a little bit about yourself. But you know, we as humans have a lot going on through our brains. And so unless there is some intention put into, okay, how are we going to design this in a way that they’re learning something new that they actually need, in order to function better as a team? And then how are we also going to look at how we’re transferring what they’ve learned into the workplace itself.

Maria Ross 09:15

I love that because I think that is the missing piece of, you know, people trying to, again, with all good intentions, trying to manufacture fun. And they say that, you know, having the happy hour on Friday is the team building exercise, or let’s go do a ropes course or, and all of those things can be good, but often they’re just sort of the lowest hanging fruit of what people think, okay, as long as we’re doing something outside of work or outside of the office or something, quote, unquote, fun, you know, according to whose opinion by the way I would say it just feels like another forced exercise that people have to go through. And again, some of them might be so preoccupied by work, because they’re like, why am I here? Like I already have a good relationship with people or or, I’m already friends with the people I want to be friends with at work. And I don’t, you know, so talk to us a little bit about that concept of bringing in skills development into deep building activities, because I don’t know that that’s often intentionally thought through and how can someone who’s in charge of these events, or who’s putting together these events, figure out what the most important need is for the team to work on?

Teri Schmidt 10:24

And I’ll start with that question. And I’m a big data person. So, you know, I think it just starts with getting that data in some way. So whether that’s through observing the team, whether that’s talking to the team leader, if you don’t happen to be the team leader yourself, whether that is looking at engagement, survey data, or different however, you are getting that feedback for how people feel about their time that they spend at work, you’re going to want to try to dig into that and see, okay, what are what, what are we doing well, but also, what are some of those muscles that maybe we need to exercise. So maybe it comes up that, you know, we’re not really good at giving each other feedback, or receiving the feedback which connect, you know, via the heart, right? Sometimes, right? Or maybe, you know, we’re just not really good at planning effective meetings. And those are two skills that, although they seem simple, are critically important in terms of how the team is going to perform day to day. So that’s how you can find out kind of what skills are needed. But then beyond putting that into the team building experience, your itself, you can do it in a multiple different ways. I mean, even on a on a ropes course, maybe you have an opportunity to give and receive feedback. The way that we design it is we actually are team building experiences are called Learn by Doing good. And the good is in parentheses. So you can learn, you know, learn by doing but also learn by doing good. And the reason for that is that we take that skill development, and we combine it with a community service project. So some project that benefits those in need in the community. And while they’re doing that community service project, they’re actually practicing the skills that we taught them. So that may sound a little bit different. It’s quite innovative. And so let me give you an example. So for our courage team building event, we talk a lot about giving and receiving feedback. And we, I will, through interactive activities help people to realize how they feel about giving and receiving feedback, you know, where maybe some of the roadblocks are for them. And then also, we go through a model that makes the feedback really specific, so that it’s actionable. Then in the project, we since it’s called courage, where you’re doing a project for first responders and active duty service members, and it’s making paracord lanyards. So that’s something that they can use out in the field for multiple different purposes. But a lot of people don’t know how to make them. So we partner them up, we let one team member learn the skill from a video how to do it, and they have to teach the other partner and the other partner has to use that model of giving feedback that we just learned minutes ago, and give feedback about how well that person taught them to do that skill.

Maria Ross 13:28

Wow. And so. So you’re really it kind of goes beyond it’s almost a mixture of a of a training session on skills development, and a team building activity. And it benefits the community. So you’re actually doing something that matters you’re putting out you’re putting it into practice, and you’re putting it into practice because of that community service aspect. So why is it is that? Like, how did this come about? How just serving prime our brains to learn and retain new skills better than just, you know, sitting in the session, other than that being, you know, sitting in the session being more boring? How does that actually help us learn and retain the skills

Teri Schmidt 14:11

better? Yeah, it’s fascinating. So when you are engaged in community service, when you are doing something good for others, there’s actually a reward center in your brain that activates. And it turns out that that reward center and the neurotransmitters that are released are the same ones that engage your brain in learning and retaining information. So it just happens to be that, you know, beyond all the benefits that you just mentioned, and you know, you’re learning, you’re doing something fun, you’re doing something that makes you feel good because it’s good for the community. It actually has some brain science behind it and that you are then more able to retain that information in those skills. You just learned?

Maria Ross 15:01

So how do your clients determine what activity to do? Do you encourage them to pick a community service project that aligns with their purpose or their mission? Or how do they even decide? Or is it based on the skill that they want to master,

Teri Schmidt 15:17

it’s kind of a mix and match. So we do have nine standard events that we offer. But we allow organizations to customize, and I love what you said, because I definitely recommend that if at all possible, they can align it with the purpose of their organization, because that’s just another way to transfer it back into the workplace. So if they’re doing something that is aligned with what they’re going to be doing every day, that makes it all the more likely that they’re, the brain is going to be triggered. Oh, yeah, I remember when we did that. And I know why we did it. Because that’s the one thing about, you know, the empathy generation, they need to understand the purpose behind what they’re doing. And they need to be able to relate to the person or the animal, we have projects for animals that they’re doing it for. And so without that, the empathy isn’t generated as much. And those reward centers don’t light up as much. Because although empathy comes to us naturally, it only comes to us naturally, for those who are in our in group. So we need to find a way, whether it’s through seen person face to face, or just watching a video about the person, which is usually what we do, because while they usually do it virtually, and they have to be able to relate to that person so that empathy can be triggered by them feeling more like that person is someone who matters and someone who they want to help. And it’s been part of their in group.

Maria Ross 16:48

I love that. And, you know, can you talk a little bit about how you can do this in a remote environment, because I think that’s, you know, as the workplace is changing as we are in this new era of work. The reality whether some leaders want to admit it or not, is that there’s a lot of people who are not going back to an office every day. And we realize the opportunity that potential with that, but the argument you often hear for making everybody mandating everyone to go back into the office is, oh, we can’t collaborate. If we’re remote, we can’t form connections. And for those of us that have been working remotely from home for decades, it’s kind of a weird thing to hear. But you know, it’s fear of the unknown for a lot of these leaders, like I don’t know how, unless everybody’s under the same roof, and we do an event and we’re all in the same room. How am I going to do team building? How am I going to do skills development, if everyone is still isolated in their own homes, but you have effectively done team building and skill building events? Learn by Doing good with remote teams? So how does that work? How are unable to make that happen? And what can someone listening? Learn from that about how to build more collaboration and camaraderie between their team even in a remote or possibly hybrid environment?

Teri Schmidt 18:08

Yeah, definitely a great question and one that I think is at the top of everyone’s mind. And before I jump into the answer, I do want to say I love the blog post that you recently did about that. And I, and the episode that you did a while back about the state of the empathy, you know, report in the workplace.

Maria Ross 18:24

Thanks. I’ll put a link to those in the show notes. Yeah. I recently for folks listening, I recently wrote a blog post about the real reason people may not want to come back to the office and how we can address that. So I’ll put links to that. Thanks for giving me a shout out there.

Teri Schmidt 18:38

Of course, of course, that was very insightful, in terms of how do you build connection, I was interesting, I was just listening to another podcast that you know, kind of beard, how we do this in a virtual environment. And the gentleman on there was talking about, you know, for so long screens, whenever we are in front of a screen, we expect it to be entertained. And the person leading, you know, was the person doing it, and we were just receiving that we were really passive. Now, if you operate your virtual meetings, or you operate your virtual team building events like that, there’s no connection that’s going to happen. And he was talking about and I would agree, because this is what we do you introduce those opportunities to connect as early as possible in the event, so that you can kind of say to your brain know that even though you’ve had decades of the screen being you know, your entertainment and you just passively absorb that we’re going to use it in a different way now. So what we will do is we will break people up into breakout rooms. Now the way we structure those depends on you know, what the leader wants and what activity is going on and what we understand about the relationships between different people, but we’ll give them an opportunity to do a quick connection exercise that is related to the scale, but still kind of light and fun and, you know, doesn’t require everyone to get real deep real fast, right. And we’ll do that as early as possible. And we’ll do those types of activities and breakouts very frequently throughout the event, so that people are getting to engage in a smaller group and able to not only, you know, gain some understanding about themselves, but also gain familiarity and understanding of how and why other people work the way that they

Maria Ross 20:32

do. I love that observation that you’ve just shared, because I never thought of it that way. I never thought about the fact that why was why was remote work easier for me when the lockdown happened since I had been doing it for you know, over a decade. And it’s because I was used to collaborating with people screen to screen, I was used to collaborating with people I’d never met in person before. And it’s such a, it’s such an underappreciated skill. And the fact that you called out why is because usually, when we have a relationship with the screen, it’s us and the screen. And we’re either doing our work by ourselves with that screen, or the screen, TV, tablet, whatever, is entertaining us and we are passive. Now you could argue like with video games, or whatever, that’s a little bit different. But again, we don’t associate work screens with that type of entertainment. And so it’s sort of this expectation of if I go into the Zoom Room, and it’s a class or a course or a team building activity over zoom, I just get to sit here. Yep. And, you know, show me what you got kind of a situation right, exactly. But getting used to this idea that we need to interact through the screen is a learned skill, and one that we don’t have. And just that was a brilliant nugget you just shared with us because I never thought of it that way of people. The challenge that people have with remote the challenge that leaders have, with leading remote or leading hybrid is their inability to interact screen to screen. But if we learn that skill, and you know, do it through team building activity, so we’re not only building camaraderie, but we’re you know, whatever skill, we’re also learning whatever professional skill, also learning the skill of how to interact with each other in a work environment through screen, and not being passive and to be part of it and participate.

Teri Schmidt 22:24

Yes, yeah. And I will say no, the other thing that we do are several of our events, they involve some sort of supply. So I talked about the paracord lanyards, we will ship out individual boxes, to the people who are participating. So what that does is that also gives you something tactile to work with that, again, engages you in the experience a little bit more than if you were just sitting back listening to something

Maria Ross 22:52

right. I remember one of the fun exercises my husband’s company did during the lockdown was they made succulent planters? Uh huh. So everybody on the team got their own little kit. Uh huh. And I think someone was guiding them. I’m not sure but, but it was creative and fun. And it was had nothing to do with work. But it was all about sort of expressing themselves and getting their creativity out and being able to share the experience of like, oh, let me see what you did, John. And let me see what you did Sarah. And I just thought that was such a neat opportunity for them to do something over zoom. And then we’ve all heard the stories of people doing things like wine tasting classes, or, you know, baking bread together or something like that. So, but what I love about this is, I feel like that component of that type of remote team building, in their minds, people have isolated to the lockdown. Like, we don’t need to do that and everything. And what you’re proposing is you still need to work on skills development with your team, you still need to build camaraderie, and teamwork. And you need to you might possibly need to do it in this new environment. So what’s a way you can do that? That’s not a, you know, not saying the succulent session was a waste of time. But you know, one could say, well, where’s the ROI on that? What you’re doing is you’re bringing in actual practical skills that impact productivity in the workplace, to the same kind of event and making it fun and giving back to the community. It’s like, it checks all the boxes, so I just exactly how much yeah, we

Teri Schmidt 24:22

kind of see it as a three for one. It was like what the succulent, you know, yes, that could enhance well being that could enhance relationships. You know, we feel like we are enhancing wellbeing of the team. We’re doing skill development that helps them develop skills they can use back in the workplace, and they’re doing good for the community. Right, right. And so as

Maria Ross 24:45

we wrap up, I want to ask one last question that I know you and I have talked about in our pre conversations to this call. And that’s the component of this that really appeals to younger generations in the workforce. Gen Z, the top talent that you know, to be a sustainable business we need to attract and engage and retain. Why is this type of team building skill building community service, event or experience so tantalizing to younger talent?

Teri Schmidt 25:18

Yeah, it’s really for two factors. So two factors that the younger generations consider when they are selecting a job or deciding if they want to stay with that particular employer have to do around professional and career development. So one reports from McKinsey said that 87%, consider professional development as important or very important to their choice of employment. So that’s 87% of people who are looking at that. So if you’re showing them that you are invested in giving them skills that they can use to progress in their career with you, or with another organization, that’s going to be very attractive. And the second one, I think, there’s been so much said, and there’s been research to back it up about how socially conscious the younger generations are. And, you know, I heard from a Deloitte Report to that 1/3 will actually reject an employer based on personal ethics and beliefs so that if they don’t feel that their employer is concerned about the causes that they are concerned about, well, I shouldn’t even say their employer, if they don’t feel their potential employer is concerned about it, flat out rejection, you know, it’s not necessarily about the money. It’s more about that purpose, and that professional career development.

Maria Ross 26:41

I love that because again, you look at these types of events and experiences, whether people do them with you, or they start being more intentional about how they’re doing and for their own organization, you’re able to accomplish a lot by combining these experiences into one experience without feeling like you’re trying to cram everything in, right, it all is interrelated. And add on top of that, the fact like you mentioned earlier, when it’s done in this type of an environment, when it’s done in this type of format, people will actually retain the skills that they’re learning and talk about wasted ROI. When you spend all this money sending people to fancy trainings or workshops, and they’re sitting in a room for five hours. And you know, they’re away from their job, and then you fly them back home. And then how much of that have they actually retained? And how much of that have they actually learned to use in practice?

Teri Schmidt 27:34

Exactly, we do one more thing to support that as well, we will offer resources or beyond the event. So whether that is strategies that you may want to incorporate in your weekly team meeting that relate to what was done in the event, whether that is leadership coaching for those, you know, organizations that do the team building with us, we do offer discount of leadership coaching so we can continue to work on, you know, what happened in the event? What was some of the progress that was made? And what is some progress that still needs to be made? And how can we support you and helping to make that happen?

Maria Ross 28:08

I love it. I love it. Thank you so much, Terry, for coming on today to talk about empathy infused team building to create lasting impact. And I am going to have in the show notes the link. But we’ve got a little gift for listeners, you have a free guide 10 activities to connect in 10 minutes, and it can be found at become stronger to serve.com forward slash empathy edge again, we’re going to put that link in the show notes for people and they’ll also be able to link to more information about your Learn by Doing good experiences, and hopefully spark some ideas for them. So for folks on the go, though, that are not in the access the show notes right now, where’s one of the best places they can connect with you and learn more about your work?

Teri Schmidt 28:50

Yeah, the best place is to find me on LinkedIn. So I’m under Terry te ri Schmitt, and I think it has an M in the middle. But if you search Terry Schmitt, and stronger to serve, you’ll find me and I know you’ll have it in the show notes as well. And I do want to give a little secret hint, there is a discount for our team building events in that activity guide that you were just mentioning that free gift. So love it. Make sure you get your hands on that and exactly it does support you and your teams. Yep, become

Maria Ross 29:20

stronger to serve.com forward slash empathy edge. Terry, thank you so much for your time and your efforts to help build teams build skills, but also benefit the community.

Teri Schmidt 29:32

Well, thank you for having me on Maria. This was great. And thank

Maria Ross 29:35

you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the end At the edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access, show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Brigette Iarrusso: Disrupting Toxic Business Models in the Online Space

We are not tied to harmful business and workplace practices. In fact, history shows us that we, as humans, work to improve things over time – look at laws against child labor, unsafe working conditions, and safety and truth in advertising regulations.

Yes, capitalism and business have been rooted in toxic and inequitable practices for a long time because people can make a lot of money. But we are in a new era of converging trends: more transparency, higher ethical customer demands, and much more marketing-savvy consumers.

Today, Brigette Iarrusso shares her unique journey and how she bucked a major higher ed institution by pushing to teach a new model of business success. We talk about raising awareness of coercive business and sales practices, especially in the wild west of the coaching and online business space. We discuss leading in ways not rooted in dominant cultures, how to shift your sales and marketing to be more consent-based, when cancel culture is and is not effective, and how to unlearn toxic and patriarchal leadership and sales approaches to create more sustainable models.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Leadership is not a binary. You do not have to lead compassionately or lead with financial success – you can have both. It is just a challenge to unlearn the things that we have been taught by society.
You can’t create a new business model using old business paradigms. You have to rethink organizational structure, strategy, skills, finances, and everything else that goes into your company.
All steps in the sales process should be taken with consent and curiosity, not with coersion and aggression.

“You really can’t extract big, fast profits without causing harm. And so I think there are some constructs that are a hard pill for certain types of businesses to swallow.” — Brigette Iarrusso

Episode References:

MARIA’S COURSE

Learn more about Maria’s new Brand Story Breakthrough course, starting September 8. Spots are limited so grab yours before it’s gone to start attracting more of your ideal customers and boosting revenue and growth: https://bit.ly/BSBcourse

About Brigette Iarrusso, CEO and Founder, Disruptive Business Coaching

Brigette Iarrusso is CEO and Founder of Disruptive Business Coaching. She’s an international speaker and social impact business coach. She is on a mission to help coaches, healers, and experts, who care about racial and social justice to scale their sales and impact with integrity, equity and inclusion. She is committed to raising awareness around coercive marketing and sales practices in the coaching and online business space. And, disrupting harmful practices that disproportionately affect People of Color and other people with marginalized identities. She creates inclusive and engaging events that inspire and connect business leaders with widely diverse backgrounds from around the globe.

Connect with Brigette Iarrusso:

Disruptive Business Coaching (formerly Embrace Change):

Website: https://www.disruptivebusinesscoaching.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brigetteiarrusso/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brigette.iarrussosoto/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/embracechangeus/

Take her high impact challenge: https://go.embracechange.us/highimpactchallengeevergreen

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. We are not tied to harmful business and workplace practices. In fact, history shows us that when we as humans work to improve things over time, it gets better look at laws against child labor, unsafe working conditions, and safety and truth in advertising regulations. And yes, capitalism and business have been rooted in toxic and inequitable practices for a long time, because people can make a lot of money. But we’re in a new era of converging trends, more transparency, higher ethical customer demands, and much more marketing savvy consumers. My guest today is Bridgette ire Russo international speaker social impact business coach and CEO of disruptive business coaching. And she’s on a mission to help coaches, healers, experts and even companies who care about racial and social justice to scale their sales and impact with integrity, equity and inclusion. We both believe organizations can be successful and profitable, while still disrupting harmful practices that disproportionately affect people of color and other marginalized groups. Today, Bridgette shares her unique journey and how she booked a major higher ed institution by pushing to teach a new model of business success. We talk about raising awareness of coercive business and sales practices, especially in the wild west of the coaching and online business space. We discuss leading in ways not rooted in dominant cultures, how to shift your sales and marketing to be more consent based, when canceled culture is and is not effective, and how to unlearn toxic and patriarchal leadership and sales approaches to create more sustainable models. This was an eye opener. Take a listen. Hello, Bridgette I are so welcome to the empathy edge podcast, my friend, it’s so good to see you.

Brigette Iarrusso 03:44

You too. Thank you so much for inviting me, buddy. I’m really excited.

Maria Ross 03:47

So you are so much you have done so much. And I would love to give listeners a taste of your story and how you came to this work of being a disruptive business coach and helping to disrupt the coaching industry. So tell us how you got here. And why is this your passion?

Brigette Iarrusso 04:08

Okay, well, I’ll try to do it in a way that doesn’t take too long. I have a mixed identity, and I’m half Puerto Rican and half Italian American. And I was always drawn to explore other cultures. And so during grad school, I took a good chunk of time off for my degree program. And I went to Guatemala, and I worked with indigenous communities around microcredit lending initiatives, and I just saw so much disruption, innovation and resilience among people who had very scarce resources. And I really began to see that my worldview was flawed that I wasn’t going to be going to Guatemala to save these kinds of poor, marginalized impoverished people. If anything, they were there to teach me a lot. And they were just simply lacking in resources. That’s where things kind of started. And it started to disrupt my worldview and my perspective of the US and how we frame ourselves as kind of being this global Savior that’s going on doing all this good in the world, I started to really see that there were a lot of holes in these narratives that were taught about the United States and financial aid to developing countries. And then I wound up working in bedroo, doing work with extractive corporations, mining companies, and looking at the impact of multinational businesses, on the environment, on the society on the culture in Begu, very much an ongoing reflection of colonization, and a continuation of colonization in a new global economic format. And so again, I wound up learning a lot more than I actually think I contributed, being on the ground with these kinds of local groups, and really learning to listen and tune into what people were already working on, and unlearning the desire to come in and fix and save, which is very much a symptom of people like myself and many other people in my community who are wanting to do good in the world. So full circle, I wound up coming back to the US after those experiences working in a couple of nonprofits in a way that was really misaligned for my new worldview. And then I wound up teaching business, UC Berkeley change management, and cross cultural communication, and then entrepreneurial leadership. And then I kept disrupting and inserting ideas around sustainable green marketing, triple bottom line, ethics, sustainability, and they were okay. They kept saying, okay, Bersia, and I would bend the rules, and I’d get instructors in that we’re not quite fitting the standards. And then I started to talk about systemic oppression and racism, in business, and institutionally. And that’s where I crossed the line as a disrupter, right? That’s where I threatened that institutional status quo and triggered something that there was a lot of shame and suppressed history around. And so that’s when I became just way too much for that institution. And realized after I was released from my role, which a lot of people say, Oh, things happen for you, not to you. That’s not true when it comes to like genocide and rape, like, we should never say that. But when it comes to this situation of me as like a white presenting woman of privilege being released from this role, it really was one of those, like hidden gifts. The universe was really like, here, I’m gonna do you a solid, you don’t see it quite that way. But the thing was, at this time in my life, I was available for that. I saw this as like, this is your out, like, you don’t belong here anymore. You’ve reached the maximum level of disruption, you can, you’ve done some great things. In fact, I think I tried to hire you, you were one of my most amazing people that I met through those years of like seeking out and stalking, you know, marketing experts online. That’s how I found Maria. I was looking for awesome women leaders in marketing, that were doing cool shit. And that’s how I found her. And I like invited her to coffee. So I did this great work at the University. And I disrupted where I could, and I shifted the curriculum to the extent that I could, and then I like, let it go. And I said to the universe, on the day, I was released from that role, the day I was laid off, I said, I’m ready for something better. And that’s when someone came into my life that was in the entrepreneurial coaching industry, and invited me to work on a collaboration and it just took off from there, I just got really excited about the possibility of doing things my own way and creating my own business, even though I had originally been scared about entrepreneurship and business leadership, because there’s so many narratives in the work I was doing in Silicon Valley about failure rates, and everyone’s destined to fail, and that everyone’s cut out. And there’s so many failure narratives that are deeply rooted. And so I had to like, do the work to unlearn those narratives and trust that I was going to succeed on my terms, and that I was ultimately, always an entrepreneur and an innovator. It’s just I didn’t know that that’s what you called it, I always thought I was just breaking rules, getting in trouble for trying to do things more efficiently, trying to take risks, trying to make things more efficient, trying to deconstruct things from traditional power sources, right. All those things I was doing was social innovation, social entrepreneurship, but I had no idea until after I taught it and learned about it and Silicon Valley and then started my own company. It all started to connect. I was like, Oh, I’m an entrepreneur, but I’m not a regular entrepreneur, and I’m never going to be right, right. Right.

Maria Ross 09:44

What I love about that is you’ve taken all the concepts that you were trying to help entrepreneurs building these quote unquote, big ideas and big systems and big companies and, you know, tech darlings and all that kind of thing, and you’ve brought it to an industry that is way overdue for disruption, and for sort of cleaning house, which is the coaching industry. So tell us about how you decided to focus there. And what are the toxic business models you see in the coaching industry today?

Brigette Iarrusso 10:17

Yeah, so I found out that I was a coach, through a mentor that I invited to speak in my classroom, Hans Kurdi. I remember talking with him after I got laid off, and he was the person that came to me with a project. And he’s an amazing business mentor, and coach and mindset coach. And I was like, I don’t even know what this coaching stuff is. And he’s like, Yeah, Bridgette, you’re just a coach. You’re like a natural coach. And he’s like, I’ve witnessed you in your classroom, you ask more questions than you do tell, and you facilitate the students taking risks and making mistakes. And that’s what coaches do it. And I thought to myself, Wow, is that true. And then my mother had this massive stroke while I was three months pregnant. And I got laid off, pretty much right after I came back from maternity leave, while I was in this medical crisis, trauma crisis, caring for my mother, who lost 40% of her right brain and became severely disabled overnight. And this is an indigenous Puerto Rican woman who’s obese, the system does not, is not set up to care for her. But I’m set up to disrupt that system and make sure she gets cared for. So I was in the midst of all of that. And my traditional therapist, I was just sitting and complaining to her for years, throughout my mom’s condition and care. And I got in touch with all my feelings toward my mom, over and over processing feelings. And finally, one day, I just asked her, when are you going to tell me to just shut the fuck up? When are you going to ask me? What do I want to do about any of this? How much longer are you going to let me sit here repeating the same bullshit stories over and over and over? This is like, not at all helpful anymore. And so that’s when my mentor Hans began coaching me around the situation with my mother. And in a very short period of time, I realized that I had the power to shift my stories and beliefs around the situation of my mother’s condition and what it meant for my life. And it wasn’t like overnight, it wasn’t like a magic wand, which is one of the problems in the coaching industry, right? This narrative that you just need this one mindset shift, and it’s so easy. And then overnight, your whole life, no, deep mindset coaching, is rooted in first unlearning to rewrite and relearn your stories and and there’s a pretty significant, deeply rooted process. And that that work also has to be trauma informed, and trauma aware for it to actually be safe and sustainable. And not just be a short term mindset tweak. So I had this beautiful experience of unfuck Ng, my own mindset about this truly fucked up situation truly bad. Like, I’m an only child. financially. My mother’s care was like extraordinarily overwhelming. And I went from like, there’s no out it’s hopeless. There’s no solutions to like, Fuck this. I’m building her cottage, I’m taking over. I’m bringing in caregivers, I’m taking her out of the care system. I’m doing this I’m advocating I’m making it work and all kinds of shit went wrong all the time. And my mindset throughout all this was like, Okay, now what? So that’s not working. Now, what do we do? And I just shifted my entire, my entire way of being in the world from like, focusing on the problems to looking at okay, what’s the next possibility? How do I move from this stuck place? And so that is where the intersection with the coaching?

Maria Ross 13:47

Yeah. And so what do you see as some of the issues though, with the coaching industry, as it is

Brigette Iarrusso 13:53

one of the biggest Well, I mentioned that there’s this lack of awareness around trauma and its impact on the body and the brain. And this is particularly relevant for people who hold a marginalized identity, whose bodies and brains have been ultimately assaulted systemically with higher levels of trauma than many of us have ever experienced. And the two largest traumas that have impacted people are colonization, the the destruction and decimation of indigenous culture and the westernization and colonization of those cultures, and slavery, and ongoing systemic racism that came out of the creation of the narrative that people who are melanated are lesser humans. And so these two constructs produce a great deal of trauma, global collective trauma, individual trauma, cerebral trauma, epigenetic trauma that gets passed on generationally. And so a lot of what coaching attempts to do is to skirt over deeper issues with mindset tweaks, and shifts in beliefs. Yeah, and you can shift your belief which I hate that word. Yeah, you can shift your beliefs. But, and I did that initially and shifting my beliefs got me far, it got me pretty far in terms of taking action. But what shifting my beliefs did not get me is nervous system regulation, healing internalized trauma in my family system. Like, that’s work I’m still doing now, I’m playing catch up and doing that work in myself and in my family system and learning about how to integrate it into my coaching. Because mindset shifts alone are really helpful for people with very limited trauma and very limited challenges that the challenges that they’re facing are relatively minor, like leaving a job that you don’t like, if you’re a person of privilege, and you have other opportunities, but you’re kind of making out to be really scary. That might be something where mindset work can help a lot shifting the narrative around, there’s many opportunities available for me, lots of people out there want to hire someone like me, I don’t need to stay at this company, I don’t need them. They’re not a fit, like mindset work is really useful in that construct. But again, let’s put that in the perspective of like, maybe this is a woman of color working in a company where she’s experiencing microaggressions on the daily, and she’s ignoring these behaviors, and this treatment in order to continue to function in her role. And all of that harm and toxicity of that organizational culture has been built up in her nervous system. Now, mindset work alone is not going to help that woman if she’s afraid of going out looking for another job, because her fear of looking for another job has multiple levels. And it’s including fear of being harmed again, in another toxic supremacist organizational culture where she as a woman of color, is not fully embraced or accepted for who she is. Right? So there’s all these complexities that there are coaches in the industry that are acknowledging these nuances. And there is a certain percentage, I would say, 15%, maybe it’s moving from 10%, maybe 15%, maybe we’re stretching to 20%, of the coaching industry is starting to understand that we need to look at coaching through a lens of trauma, awareness of equity, true equity, diversity and inclusion. And not just equity, diversity, inclusion, for virtue signaling or for looking good. But for actual restorative racial justice to actually correct the imbalance in power and opportunity that has been impacting people marginalized identities, and these constructs of the inequity are really magnified in the coaching industry. And they’re really prevalent. And because everybody is online, and everyone’s sharing their perspectives openly, you can see these power dynamics around race and privilege and equity playing out. And I’m very blessed to be in a community of other disruptors, people of color, white people who are taking a stand around racial and social justice and conscious business and wanting to do things differently. And part of what we’re all learning, and unlearning is to be more empathetic, and to have more self love and self compassion in this work, because it’s really uncomfortable. It’s complicated. And it’s really messy to do this work well. And if the goal is to not make mistakes, because you’re afraid of being canceled, or called out, then people don’t do anything, right. And this is where a lot of conscious kind, white people consider themselves spiritual, who have positive intentions who want to do good in the world. They get stuck in well, I don’t want to say the wrong thing or make a mistake. So I don’t do anything. That’s a problem. Right? You have to be willing. So deconstructing, or dismantling white supremacy requires white people should embrace discomfort, imperfection and making mistakes, because white supremacist culture is punitive. It’s not forgiving. It’s about incarcerating people. Three strikes, you’re out. People are reprehensible people are, you cannot rehabilitate people that makes mistakes in society, they need to be shunned, locked away and punished. That is what white supremacist culture is. And that extends to everything, including business, and online social media, this idea that, like, if you say the wrong thing, or you make mistakes, or you cause harm, you’re gonna get canceled, and you’re gonna get ruined. Well, I

Maria Ross 19:34

want to talk about that, because you talked about that. There are certain situations where canceled culture is okay. But it’s not as often as we think. So talk to us a little bit about that, because and I want to build I want to connect the dot here to leadership models that are rooted in dominant culture. But before I get there, since you brought it up, I do want to talk about the impact of Kancil culture on business. Yeah, and you What’s your viewpoint on that?

Brigette Iarrusso 20:02

Yeah, so canceled culture is complicated because when you cancel a company, for example, it might be warranted if that company has been called in. And the harm that they have caused, or continue to cause has been pointed out. And if they dig in their heels and deny any wrongdoing, deny, causing harm, and continue to perpetuate harm, and multiple attempts to call in to correct to give a restorative justice approach to fix the problem. That’s where you get canceled. So like a coach, that has been harming people for a long time, and has been called out multiple times. And then people call this person in and have a dialogue and all kinds of people have expended excruciating amounts of emotional labor, to talk with this person about the harm and give them constructive feedback and how to do better. And they’re just like, No, I didn’t do anything wrong, too fucking bad. That’s where things are kind of complicated, right. But what Colin culture and constructive restorative justice culture looks like is, we all make mistakes. We’re all capable of learning from our mistakes, we’re capable of doing better. But when we shame other and cancel people, block them, take away their voice. It drives the behavior underground, they get put into a place of shame, and self criticism and self judgment, there’s a lack of empathy for the mistake. The idea is that other people are better than them and don’t make mistakes, which is absolute bullshit, because we all make mistakes, right? But that is what white supremacists culture is. And that’s why women and people who hold marginalized identities, even men struggle and suffer so much in white supremacist culture, because there’s no space to be imperfect humans that are in a duality of goodness and causing harm. Yeah.

Maria Ross 22:03

Well, and I think that impacts our leadership models, because it is a very, you know, even you know, I know you were talking about the criminal justice system, but there is that viewpoint of three strikes, you’re out on the job. And, you know, and it’s balancing, that I feel strongly that you can lead compassionately and in a humane way, and still expect excellence, and still make a profit, and still achieve your goals. Like, I think we’ve signed on for this binary thinking of you’re either a compassionate leader, or you’re a financially successful leader. Why can’t we be both. And that’s what I love about the slant on your coaching, where you’re talking about helping people build profitable businesses, and make money so that money can then flow into their communities and into their causes, and to create a sustainable business that not only supports their lifestyle, but then also can give back to their communities. We don’t talk enough about that, you know, there’s either people who are scared of money, or think it’s shameful to make a lot of money. And oh, I just want my business to do well, and just support my family. But I love that you are very bold about working with entrepreneurs and working with businesses that still care about the bottom line. But there’s a way that they can do it that is compassionate, that is not oppressive. That is good to the environment, that we can have both of these things. And so I know you in the past, you’ve talked about leading in a way that’s not rooted in the dominant culture. Is that what you’re talking about? Is it that viewpoint that it has to be an either or?

Brigette Iarrusso 23:40

I mean, it’s one thing and it’s a very important thing, and it’s probably one of the hardest things to unlearn. You know, I personally have a very dominant personality style, I’ve always had a lot of masculine energy. I’ve always been a leader. And I’ve always had strong ideas. And people have looked up to me and looked up to my ideas. And it’s a challenge to unlearn, always needing to be the smartest person in the room, always needing to have all the answers. This is where burnout occurs among leaders and CEOs and companies, because they put this super pressure on themselves, to have it all figured out, to lead strongly to model everything perfectly to drive company excellence. And I do think there’s something to be said for there is an inherent challenge in fast growth and fast scale. without replicating toxic and oppressive systems. It’s actually almost impossible to do. And so this is where there is a little bit of a crux here because I did a lot of research in the conscious business space when I was on the board of conscious capitalism, which has now since disbanded and we had a very honest, open internal conversation about the lack of depth of our own commitment to doing the deeper anti racism work within the organization was really missing because that’s really what it’s about. And so when you’re looking at the capitalist business model, the profit based business model, ultimately, it’s still rooted in extraction, and extracting the most from people. And so to build a company culture in an organization that’s counter to that requires greater output of expense, infrastructure time. And it’s a low food business, it’s not a fast food business. And so you’re going to have higher upfront costs, you’re going to need to build more foundation, more solid foundation invest more initially. And then you’re going to be a long haul flow growth company, that sustainable over time, that doesn’t get canceled, and you’re gonna hit your lips, and you’re gonna make your mistakes. But when you’re available for learning and doing better, and you’re available to be called in, and you’re available to receive feedback from your employees, from your customers, from your followers, and you’re listening, and you’re doing better as a result of that feedback, then you’re going to stay for the long haul. And there’s only a slim margin of companies with this particular approach. And I know many of them. And it’s a beautiful thing to witness because fast extractive growth is what toxic capitalism is. It’s the epitome of toxic capitalism, right? It’s about shareholder dividends, it’s about profit only. And you really can’t extract big, fast profits without causing harm. And so I think there are some constructs that are a hard pill for certain types of businesses to swallow, because they’re not inherently designed will be that slow type of thing. And they

Maria Ross 26:44

have to do the work. That’s the thing is you can’t create that new model using old paradigms. Right, you know, you can part yeah. And it requires rethinking your organizational structure. It requires rethinking your investment strategy, your budgeting strategy within the organization, it requires you rethinking the skill sets you require to actually get the job done and where you’re going to find them. And so

Brigette Iarrusso 27:13

because of fear and scarcity, that Yeah, I mean, don’t do those things. Right. So because capitalism is rooted in competition and scarcity, we’ve coded from birth, to think that there’s only a certain amount of resources and that we have to fight and compete and do certain things to access those resources. And there’s some truth to that in some ways, but I think what companies fail to see is that a lot of the things that they consider extra nice to haves, nice to have, like antiracism, or,

Maria Ross 27:46

like de IB, leaders are getting exactly left and right, because I don’t understand recession. Yeah. If

Brigette Iarrusso 27:52

your organization is truly deeply committed to unlearning toxic supremacist leadership approaches, whether through in sales, product development, creative design, customer service, user experience, whatever the area is, those tools to be trauma aware, equity informed, and to learn consent based collaborative coaching models of leadership, it’s going to help every single type of department in your organization do better. But there’s a lack of belief or buy in, because the leaders of those departments are under pressure and operating under scarcity that they have to get their teams to produce and perform. And so they put more pressure on and they will and then they don’t necessarily realize how counter that is to people’s wellness and productivity.

Maria Ross 28:44

So can you give us an example or two of companies that you see doing things in a new way? And trying to adopt some of these models?

Brigette Iarrusso 28:54

Yeah, I mean, well, it’s hard. I mean, they try to, I would say that in the B Corp. in the B Corp movement, Donna, Karen is an interesting example. I met Donna Karen 25 years ago, and she was in a board room at the law firm where I was working as a paralegal crying, because her lawyers informed her that her products were still being made with sweat, children’s sweatshop labor, and she authentically literally didn’t know. And she did the white woman crocodile tears and it’s like, okay, you’re crying about this, but you’re not the child working in the sweatshop and you’re privileged person. But she worked through this over the years and became a B Corp and has done a lot in the garment industry and has made big changes, right. And so she’s an example of someone that came out of the possibility of being utterly canceled. Like many companies that are exposed for harmful business practices, which many especially garment production, fashion industry companies, most Most are participating in child trafficking, child slave labor, unhealthy and unfair wages and factory conditions, right? And often it takes companies being put out on Front Street for leaders to realize, so there’s this kind of push pull of like, do leaders fix these things? before they happen? That’s the ideal, or do they address the wound once it’s been exposed to the public, and they’re bleeding out and they’re losing their money, and they’re at risk for losing their shareholders? Both are happening, right. But I’m really interested in the companies that are trying to get out ahead of it. And I don’t know that many, I’ll be perfectly honest with you. I actually did a, I did outreach. And I asked for examples. And it was really hard. People would come back to me and say, I did a lot of research. And this company is doing some cool stuff, but not quite right. But I would say looking at the B Corp roster, looking at companies that maybe call themselves conscious capitalist, but I would look into what their definition is of being a conscious capitalist, if that includes being anti oppressive, anti racist. Yeah, I

Maria Ross 31:07

think that’s the thing, too. I mean, I think there’s a few examples of companies like SAP or Patagonia or Unilever, who are actually proactively taking a look at their supply chain, for example, and making sure there’s not harm being done to communities or to people along the way. Now, right? Have they solved all the problems? Probably not. But the point is, they’re actually investing time and resources into investigating the problem and into looking into it. Rather than saying, like, I’m sure there’s nothing to see here. And waiting, you know, as long as we don’t have a PR nightmare, everything’s fine. Yeah, they’re actually proactively doing some work in that area. As we wrap up, I do want to talk about this concept that you talk about a lot, which is how to lead with consent in sales, and unlearn supremacist and patriarchal sales models that have been passed down. I’m constantly impressed with your platform of saying there is a different way to sell and be successful. And it doesn’t have to harm people, it doesn’t have to fool them, especially given my long background in saying that marketing can be used for good not for evil. So tell us a little bit about what does that mean to lead with consent in sales? Can you give us some examples?

Brigette Iarrusso 32:27

Yeah, I think I mean, on a daily basis on LinkedIn, I’m bombarded with inbox messages. Oh, seriously. It’s telling me to want to connect or, you know, but then they ultimately lead with an immediate pitch and there are asked, yeah, they aren’t asking, or they’re offering a solution to a problem that they don’t actually know that I have, that they don’t have my consent to help them solve. And they are making assumptions and kind of projecting onto you, the potential client that you need them. And that is really a hierarchical approach to sales, that is all about cold outreach and pushing onto people and getting them, wrangling them into fear around a problem and getting them to take the next step out of fear. And that’s a very kind of old world white male dominant culture approach to selling. It’s very interlaced with subtle or explicit coercion, a lot of manipulation, leading people into what the problem is and what they need, right. And it’s, and then there’s a completely inverse way of approaching sales, which is to look at people who are following you that might be potential clients as intelligent sovereign beings, who actually know what they need and what they’re looking for. And you’re there to facilitate them having a lightbulb moment that you’re what they need. And the best way to lead to that is through curiosity and seeking consent at every step. So an example of how I do this online, is I’ll share a post with a great deal of value and giving advice and explaining and breaking down consent, pay sales in the exact way that I would do in my paid course or program for free in a social post, lots of details, lots of explanations. And then let me know if this is helpful, like an actual request in the message, or if this is helpful. Do you want to attend my workshop next week where I’m going to go in greater detail into this. And then if someone comments, this is really helpful, then I would get their consent, the next step and say, may I send you a message about my upcoming workshop? Would you like me to send you information? I get their consent. They say yes. Now it’s okay for me to send them a private message and say, Hey, thank you for engaging with my post. I’m glad you found it useful. My five steps for consent based selling, and here’s the link for my workshop. I’d love to see you there in May I follow up with you after the workshop to see if it was helpful. third level of consent. So literally, the way that you approach sales when you are consensual and curious, and always giving the person the opportunity to decide if they want more, or if they’re ready for the next step, you really can’t go wrong. So it’s leading with extreme value first, with no pressure to buy anything, consistently sharing value in ways that are scalable. And making sure that anytime anyone finds you on any platform, or whichever are your chosen platforms, when they land on your profile, they can absorb wisdom and understand exactly how you help them. And if it resonates with them, then you can have a next step in the customer journey, but that those steps all have to be taken with consent and with curiosity. Yeah, and if someone is interested in working with you, and says, Not right now, or I don’t know if I have the money for that investment. But I’d really love to work with you. This is the next step, right? So traditional consultative selling gets really coercive and aggressive around this, and what are you afraid of? And this is where you can, you have to lean into nervous system regulation, releasing the need to force a sale or make a sale. And also, again, get curious. And that’s where you can get consent to ask further questions in the sale? Like, are you comfortable talking through that with me? Would it be helpful if we explored the financial investment? And what the fear is around the investment? Or is this something you feel like you’re absolutely not at all available to make? If the person says, Well, yeah, let’s talk about it. Because I really do want to work with you. Now you can begin to go back into curious coaching. And this is where true coaching that is consensual, and doesn’t have a hierarchical power dynamic is how you can coach people through a sale, where you help them figure out what they need to know about the decision and make it for themselves. I’ve had people have conversations with me, where we coach through their money fears, and they say, You know what, I still, I’m still not able to make this financial investment with you right now. But I know I want to, and I want you to check back in with me in three months. And then I will write and then there’s the follow up piece consent to follow up. I’ve had people also change their mind and say, you know, it’s a really stretchy investment to work with you. But now that we’ve talked through it, I do understand the value, I understand how I’m going to get a result, I understand the risks, and I’m willing to do it now. Right? I like I feel much better. And but it takes deadlines selling

Maria Ross 37:29

with empathy, though, that’s the whole thing is that it’s you looking at it from their point of view and allowing, like you said, allowing them to be in control of the process, and respect them as a sovereign human being. And it’s so much better than, you know, I’m going to admit, I mean, these folks on LinkedIn that you get these InMail messages from, it must work, because they’re playing a numbers game. I don’t know how I think it ruins your brand reputation. But you know, when you get those messages of like, I can help you do this set up some time on my calendar. I’m like, I’m not going to set up some time on your calendar, I listen to you. And yeah, don’t even talk to me, I didn’t reach out to you. So you know, just even that, you know, that’s where I go in my mind is like it must be working, or people wouldn’t be doing it. But it’s a win by attrition. It’s a win by just beating people down enough that they’re like, Fine, I’ll respond or take your call. Now I have responded to cold sales emails, because literally right at that moment in time, I was facing that problem. And it was like serendipitous that this person reached out to me. But that’s a fluke, that that happened because they didn’t know me. They didn’t know what I was working on or what I was doing. I did get one of the best podcast placement pitches I’ve ever gotten in recent weeks, where the placement agent, listened to an episode of my podcast, quoted it back to me said why it resonated with her. And then gave me the information about her guest and an outline of what her guests could talk about on my show that was relevant to my audience. And I thought, oh my gosh, that’s I said, I’m gonna heard about this on LinkedIn, and I promoted it on LinkedIn, but she wouldn’t let me use her name. She said, You know, I just, I’d rather not, you can post it anonymously. And I thought interesting, that was so telling about who this person was. And her approach to marketing and selling. It was very bespoke, it was very customized. It was very conceptual. And I never felt pushed or pressured. And when you compare that to the 90%, of pitches that people get, I just don’t know how it works for them. And I don’t know what types of customers they’re attracting. If it does work.

Brigette Iarrusso 39:48

They’re attracting customers who are in a place of victimhood, who want to be saved, who are not strong in their own beliefs that are easily bullied, right? So these are going to be folks that probably are going to need deeper work. So whatever they’re doing with that person that’s reaching out to them to help them with their business, you know that because again, they might not be the best clients either. They are not customers, clients. I mean, yeah, it’s a done for you service and they’re offering to do it for you. The reality is that 90% of us marketers out there doing lead generation are selling you exactly what they’re doing to you. So they’re selling you that they’re going to go cold message other people on your behalf. And they’re going to do it in the same icky way. And they’re going to bring you clients that you’re going to then try to coerce into working with you. And it’s unfortunately, quite a strong trend and it’s staying but I don’t know if it I questioned if it’s working as well as it used to I think it’s gotten to a frenzy of desperation. It is a numbers game, I think people are really fried from it. I mean, I worked in cold calling when I was a teenager, I remember working at a call center. And that was my first experience with sales and my nervous system had to like unlearn that gross feeling of like interrupting people at dinnertime and being hung up on and then having like my gross old boss, like breathing over my shoulder and asking me if I’d made any sales right and never making any sales. And like I literally went in the bathroom one day and had like a rum and coke in my purse. I guess I was like, How can I get through another day of doing? Yeah, I did. I did a vlog like maybe a month or two?

Maria Ross 41:19

Well, I nobody wants that to be their career, like this is the thing. And so

Brigette Iarrusso 41:23

you know, what it becomes in the industry when you don’t have the other approach, which is you have something that is truly worthwhile of bringing intentionality to the free value, you create the days of like my three quick tricks to make $100,000 a month PDF thing. You know, buyers in the online coaching industry and expert consulting industry are more savvy than ever. Lots of people have been burned and harmed and spent a lot of money on what I call magical marketing solutions that are not rooted in actual strategic frameworks and support that are going to produce results that don’t take into account the behavior and actions of the actual client. That is significant. And people are have learned a lot. And so there’s still kind of a smaller group of people who you can still get away with this. But I think it’s changing. There’s been a lot of awakening and awareness building

Maria Ross 42:21

it consumers are more savvy than they have been in the past. And especially when you look at the younger generations and their buying habits and their buying preferences. They’re not having it.

Brigette Iarrusso 42:30

Now, you know, they’re just not. So knowing this. Let us talk to people like they’re smart. Let’s talk to people like they know what the problem is. They know what they need. We don’t have to beat them over the head with it. Let’s keep showing them relevant options and solutions, viable ways of doing things. Let’s keep modeling good stuff. And then if they bite, and they like it, let’s ask for their permission to continue the conversation and do sales in a way that feels good for everybody. I love that results in making money.

Maria Ross 43:01

Yeah, exactly. I love it so much. Great insight Rajat, thank you so much for sharing your disruption with us. We need more disruptors like you and the world. Because I really believe that these business models are created by us and they can be changed by us. So we need to meet after we have, we have to and

Brigette Iarrusso 43:21

more good people making more money, they spend their money differently. Yeah. And so the kinds of people that I’m talking to, and the kinds of people that you’re talking to that are out there trying to build more conscious businesses, when you make more money, you’re going to redistribute that money, that wealth and that opportunity in ways that are radically different than our predecessors in business, who are a bunch of old men that didn’t really care about anybody else except themselves and their shareholders. And so if we also have to get over our bullshit, and our fears of selling, and embrace selling as relationship building, and in many ways, get back to something more authentic and more intimate. And yeah, and there’s vulnerability in selling authentically an athlete or the work and we can get to that place and feel comfortable with selling, you will make more money, and you’ll have more opportunities. And you’ll have more flexibility to do the kinds of great things that you want to do inside your own family, inside your own leadership, investing in yourself and your own personal development. And then if you’re in an organization, investing in initiatives that you care about, love it, love it. So

Maria Ross 44:24

we will have all the links to get in touch with you in the show notes. But for folks on the go, where’s one of the best places they can connect with you or find out more about your work?

Brigette Iarrusso 44:34

I would say I’m most active on Facebook at Virginia Russo’s Soto and on Instagram at embrace change us now disruptive business coaching, but you can still find me. All right,

Maria Ross 44:46

awesome. Thank you so much for your time today and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard, you know what to do, please rate or review and share with a colleague or friend and in the meantime until our next wonderful guest. Always remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources, book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Janice Munemitsu: The Kindness of Color

What do collaboration and empathy look like when lives and liberty are on the line, not just workplace culture? Today, you’re going to hear what happens when people come together across cultures to support each other – amidst a backdrop of World War, racism, fear, and segregation in 1940s America.

Janice Munemitsu shares her family’s inspiring story of kindness, collaboration, and empathy. Her book, The Kindness of Color, is the true story of multicultural collaboration between the Mendez and Munemitsu families, two immigrant families who came to Southern California for better lives, only to face their own separate battles against racism in the midst of World War II.

Today, Janice shares this story with you – why she wrote the book, how children and young people have responded, and most importantly how kindness leads to a brighter future that lifts everyone up.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

All children are born with empathy. It is an exercise to continue to keep it strong.
Kindness isn’t done for fame or accolades. Kindness is done because of character, honesty, integrity, and desire to help a friend.
DEIB is about more than just strategy and benefits. There is an ethos that comes when groups come together in collaboration with each other – and it is kindness.

“It’s not a Mexican and Japanese story. It’s a multicultural story, of people doing what they could, given the circumstances, and not just thinking of themselves, but of thinking more of the whole.”

— Janice Munemitsu

MARIA’S COURSE

About Janice Munemitsu, Author, The Kindness of Color

Janice Munemitsu is the author of The Kindness of Color. This is the true story of two immigrant families who came to Southern California for better lives, only to face their own separate battles against racism in the midst of World War II. One family came by land from Mexico and the other by sea from Japan. Little did they expect their paths would meet and lead to justice and desegregation for all the school children of California in Mendez, et. al v. Westminster (1947) – seven years before Brown v. Board of Education (1954).

Janice is a third-generation Japanese American Sansei. A native of Orange County, California, she worked on the family farm from age five through high school. She is a graduate of the University of Southern California and Biola University. Janice’s book may be purchased on Amazon or Barnes & Noble.

Connect with Janice Munemitsu:

Book: The Kindness of Color: https://www.thekindnessofcolor.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/JaniceMunemitsu

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janice-munemitsu/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thekindnessofcolor

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thekindnessofcolor/

References Mentioned:

Silvia and Aki
Separate is Never Equal: Sylvia Mendez and Her Family’s Fight for Desegregation
Separados No Somos Iguales (Spanish Language version)

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. What does collaboration and empathy look like when lives and liberty are on the line, not just workplace culture? Today, you’re going to hear what happens when people come together across cultures and backgrounds to support each other. Amidst a backdrop of World War, racism, fear and segregation in 1940s. America, Janice Munna Mitsu shares her family’s inspiring story of kindness, collaboration and empathy. Her book the kindness of color, is the true story of multicultural collaboration between the Mendez and Muna Mitsu families, to immigrant families who came to Southern California for better lives, only to face their own separate battles against racism. In the midst of World War Two. One family came by land from Mexico, and the other by sea from Japan. Little did they expect their paths would meet and lead to justice and desegregation for all the schoolchildren of California, in Mendez at all versus Westminster 1947. Seven years before Brown versus Board of Education in 1954. Janice is a third generation Japanese American Sansei, a native of Orange County, California, she worked on the family farm from age five through high school. Today, Janice shares this story with you why she wrote the book, how children and young people have responded, and most importantly, how kindness leads to a brighter future that lifts everyone up. You will leave inspired. Take a listen. Hello, Janice. Welcome to the empathy edge podcast to share your incredible story and book with us about the importance of kindness.

03:11

Thank you so much, Maria. Thanks for having me on your podcast.

Maria Ross 03:16

So let’s talk a little bit about your story. Tell us your story. And when it intersected with the Mendez family and what that how that looked like and how that relationship developed.

Janice Munemitsu 03:28

Our story is one that started with my grandfather coming to America in 1916. And just to fast forward, he ends up farming in Westminster, California, in the 1930s. Right before World War Two he was farming had a family of four children. And when Pearl Harbor was bombed by Japan, that changed everything. My grandfather was first generation immigrant, as was my grandmother, but their four children were US citizens. My father at that time was about 20 years old, he was enrolled in the local community college part time and working full time on the farm. But when Pearl Harbor happened, and there had been racism before, but not to the degree after Jin Han obviously bombed Pearl Harbor, and now our family looks like the enemy were Japanese heritage, even though only my grandfather and grandmother had been to Japan ever. My dad and his siblings had not. And so their allegiance was really to America. It was not to Japan at all. But because of that and executive order 9066 That was signed by President Roosevelt. The Japanese Americans along the west coast of the US, Washington, Oregon and California, were forcibly removed from their homes and communities into incarceration camps. That’s the point where the Mendez family is injured. reduced because my father, he did not know them before World War Two, but through the kindness of the local banker here, he is introduced to Gonzalo Mendez, Gonzalo Mendez always wanted to farm. And so he leases our farm on a yearly lease, because you didn’t know how long the World War Two would last. And what would happen to the Japanese, but this seemed like the best outcome to secure the farm. And when the Dalai Lama and his wife felicitous moved from Santa Ana, California to Westminster, which I don’t know if that’s even 10 miles, it’s a pretty short distance. They come to work, the farm, they’re excited about it. But their children, they find out when the school year starts, cannot attend the Westminster 17 Street School, which is where my father and his siblings went. Instead, because of the color of their skin and their last name, they have to go to the Mexican school in that school district. And it wasn’t just segregated. The Hoover school, the Mexican school did not have a normal curriculum. They assumed that the children didn’t know English and could not be challenged by regular academic courses. And so the biggest difference was there was no academics, which Sylvia and her two brothers had already been acquainted with in their former school district. So that sets off what becomes a class action lawsuit that led to the desegregation of California public schools in 1947, seven years before Brown versus education across the US.

Maria Ross 06:38

Well, and I was so excited to meet you when I got introduced to you. Because a couple of years ago, I think I told you in our pre call, I read a children’s book to my son about I believe it was called separate but equal, I will look up the actual name and put a link to the book in the show notes. But it was about Sylvia Mendez and her family’s courageous fight to desegregate the schools and the conditions of the school they were forced to go to sounded horrendous. It sounded like they didn’t have a place to sit down and eat. It sounded like the facilities were a little subpar. And in this children’s book, you can even sense Sylvia’s confusion of like, but there’s a really nice school closer to us, I don’t understand, you know, as a little kid not understanding why they couldn’t go to this other school. So their case was groundbreaking. And and I have to admit, I didn’t know a lot about it either. Until I read that book to my son. And I remember reading it to my son and having him you know, at five, six years old, saying, but I don’t understand and having to explain to him, why adults can be so hurtful to each other. It was really hard. And so when I met you, and I found out your connection and how the Mendes family helped your family by basically keeping the farm while your family was in the internment camp, and while they were there fighting this courageous court battle, you know, enrolling and empowering other families who were not as brave as they were, who didn’t want to speak up, but they were able to rally them. It was just so amazing to see two groups of people both suffering from injustices and from racism come together in kindness to help each other.

Janice Munemitsu 08:23

Yes. And actually, at that time, in California, there was a state law that actually allowed segregated schools for Native Americans, Chinese and Japanese, and the school districts could decide. So the school districts also made a decision on Mexican and it just depended on where you live, and what school district you’re in. Right. And so that’s what makes this case really groundbreaking because it led to California Assembly and Senate saying, No, we’re going to have one law for the whole state. Every district is going to desegregate their schools, whether it be Native Americans, Chinese, Japanese, or Mexican. At that time.

Maria Ross 09:10

Now your book is called the kindness of color. And tell us a little bit about that book. And what prompted you to write it based on your history?

Janice Munemitsu 09:21

Well, Sylvia has been speaking on this probably about 30 to 35 years since she retired from her nursing career. And I’ve known Silvia now for just over 20 years. And in that time, every once in a while she would get invited to speak and he also asked me to come and speak as well. And so it became more of a multicultural convent and multicultural story. Because there is a background to the story. A lot of people know the Mendes versus Westminster story, but they don’t know what led up to it. And I think that’s what gives this story in the 1940s so much What makes it so significant? Because it was many different people who encountered racism. I mean, the attorney who fought this case in federal court is of Jewish descent. But he was known as the Mexican attorney because he was bilingual. He was married to the daughter of a prominent Mexico City physician. And he worked for the Mexican counselors. So even though he was Jewish at Heritage and had encountered racism against his Jewish race, he was fighting for the, in this case for Mexican children, but really, for all children, just saying that all schools should be desegregated in California. And then subsequently, it had a ripple effect that leads to later on to Brown versus education in 1954. And so

Maria Ross 10:52

with your book, what do you hope to achieve with the book? What do you hope readers will take away from it? And more importantly, what do you hope they will do? After they read your book? And after they learn this story?

Janice Munemitsu 11:04

That’s kind of an evolving question. I didn’t really have a vision for this, Silvio, and I would talk about it verbally, but there wasn’t anything written from start to finish about the story. And several people, including our local superintendent of schools, and Department of Education here, were really, really prompting me and pushing me to do this. And I’m like, I’ve never written a book. So this has all been one grand adventure of figuring this whole thing out. But I think when I really felt like this story needed to be written was when Sylvia and I had a corporate event that we spoke at. And we found out everybody wants to know more about our family’s story. We could talk about the case, but they kept going back to well tell us more about how did your parents meet? And how did this all happen? And that’s when I saw the beauty of telling a story, a family story that was more than just a legal case. And I think when she and I talked about it after that, she says, Wow, they really want to know, what about our families? I said, I know Sophie, I said, I didn’t expect that. And they’re like, Well, you know, what did they were and where did they live? And how did they do this? And we’re like, wow, so but I think that makes this a human story. This is not just about a law case. This is a human story of all the different people in my book that did something, it was not always tangible. Either. It could have just been to listen, or to encourage or to say, let me know what I can help you do. But all those things, all those kindnesses lead up to something that really changed our state and education, no classes, I often speak at classes now that are so multicultural. And the kids can’t even imagine that had early. Yeah, most of that classroom would not be there. Whether it be Mendes versus Westminster, or some case that came after that, if it hadn’t been for that most of the classes would be a third maybe array of white children. And in subclasses, that depending on where it is, most of the children are of Asian or Latino heritage, here in our local area. So it really makes an impact. They all look at each other like wow, we wouldn’t be friends. And I think that’s one of the that’s what I want to get across this book is very inclusive, because the story is inclusive. I mentioned attorney Marcus, who is of Jewish descent, obviously Sylvia’s family, our family. And but one of the key figures in this story is a man named Frank Monroe. And he was the banker of the local small town bank manager, who actually was very, very kind to my father, even as a little boy, he was basically my dad’s mentor for the rest of my dad’s life. And he also was a very, very good friendship. Mr. Mendez to Gonzalo man was also his banker. And he played a major role, I think, in both encouraging both families, serving both families without any kind of prejudice or bias, and was a great counselor and friend, my dad said about Mr. Monroe, he was about the best friend you could ever had. He didn’t have a prejudiced bone in his body. So that kind of gives you just a glimpse of one man, Mr. Monroe, in this case, did and he passed before I was born, so I’d never met him. I did meet his wife, and as a little girl, I didn’t really understand the whole gist of what he had done. But that family and my dad and our family were lifelong friends.

Maria Ross 14:58

Did he help facilitate Are the two of them. Mendes taking over the farm while you were away? Was he instrumental in funding tell us about his role

Janice Munemitsu 15:06

a little bit. Yeah, his role was really one of I would say true friendship of knowing what was really going on with his customers, as well as he was. My father had never met Gonzalo before Mr. Monroe said, Gonzalo would like to lease the farm. And so he would made the introduction he went to Gonzalo, Sylvia said that Mr. Monroe went to Gonzalo her dad and said, Gonzalo, you’ve always wanted to be the boss of a farm. Maybe this is your chance, why don’t you lease the swamp, and that had been one of Gonzalo streams. So it’s kind of like a dream fulfilled. But yet, it was a wonderful opportunity for our family to know that somebody who Mr. Monroe trusted who was trustworthy, who was not out to take the farm away. Who was going to work hard, would want to caretake the farm. And basically, that’s what happened.

Maria Ross 16:06

Well, and didn’t they give it back? When your family? Yeah, it was totally again. Yeah, yeah, it was totally

Janice Munemitsu 16:12

a one year lease, there was multiple one year leases. But there were also families who leased Japanese American families who leased homes and businesses, farms during World War Two. And when they came back, the law was not on their side to get their property back. And so I’ve heard of numerous stories, especially after I’ve written this book, where people said, Wow, your family got your farm back, having leased it. There are many stories and people are not, they’re hesitant to share those because they still live in those communities. But they did not get their property back in a rightful lease. So that was another injustice upon injustice in our family was very unfortunate that Mr. Mendez and Mr. Monroe it truly was a lease that there was truly a start date and an end date. And it was legally documented. And most of all, that Mr. Mendez was very faithful to the lease. But the other part of the story, and that’s really interesting is when Silvia talks about this, she said, her mother was so grateful, because at the end of the lease, my dad could have said, Okay, you have to leave, but they were still the case had not been decided. And they needed to stay in Westminster, because it’s Mendez at all. Palomino, Ramirez Estrada and Guzman families. It’s a class action lawsuit versus Westminster at all. And the other thing is, Gonzalo had use the profits from our asparagus farm to pay for this court case, the legal fees and such. And so he didn’t have the savings he would have had. And so he didn’t really have the equity to go out and start his nukes business or his next venture. And so my dad, they made a very interesting last lease for a year where Gonzalo took the steal lease the farm paid lease money to my dad, but in that document, it says that Gonzalo will hire my grandfather and my dad to work for him. Oh, wow. For hourly wages. Yeah. And so this is where this collaboration of winwin a truly comes in. It’s, it went over best parts of our story. And they lived on that property together for a year. So the case would conclude, and then my father and grandfather would take goat move back into the main house and take rightful ownership of all of it. But it also sent Gonzalo off with the profits for that year’s farm.

Maria Ross 18:54

Do you think your dad understood the importance of what Gonzalo was fighting for that it somehow would also impact your family too, and other families who were seen as outsiders? Is that part of why he wanted to make it work and allow Gonzalo to stay and finish out the case?

Janice Munemitsu 19:10

I don’t think they had that much vision for it. Okay. I just remember my dad saying, oh, yeah, that’s the family who lists the farm. I think he was more. Here’s an honest man who cared well for our farm or as well as he could given the circumstance. And he just wanted to be very collaborative. I think that’s more the spirit of my dad. I don’t think in fact, I don’t even think Gonzalo and his family really realized the significance of this case. Because their youngest daughter, who wasn’t born at the time she was born much later. She didn’t even know about it. It wasn’t in their family story at all. Wow. And she Sylvia sister’s name is Sandra Sandra always tells the story as she didn’t know about until she was in college. Working on her teaching credential, and it shows up in a book on educational history. Wow sees her parents names in that book. And she goes down. And this was when there was payphones. There’s no cell phone, she runs down to the payphone in the school, the college building and calls her mom and says your name is in this history book. Is this you? So I think that sort of gives you a flavor for it. This wasn’t something like the families did. And then they kept talking about it. Their youngest daughter didn’t even know this happened. Wow. Until she studied it on as a, an actually, as a graduate student right after her four years of college to get a teaching credential. And so I think, I don’t think my dad had the foresight to say, well, this is an important case, you should fight for it. I’m sure he thought that, but it was more like, No, I think the focus of that part of the story is more, you know, than sallow. Use the money for this for that’s important. We need to let him take the profit for this next year. But it’s more important that we continue to work and get everything’s, you know, kind of set up. And yeah, and going again, the other interesting thing too, is that, the more and more I tell the story, I find out, there are people whose relatives know that their relatives stayed at our farm, because you have to remember, most of the Japanese probably had no place to go. And so our farm be kind of, uh, oh, you could stop here and work here. And until you can get settled and find something else. So it became kind of a little clearing house for people who were coming back this direction, or had lived in Orange County before, but did not have property to come home to. So that is more the spirit, I think and collaboration and helping the community to get back on their feet. Well, and

Maria Ross 21:57

you know, obviously, we’re talking about the role of empathy and all of this. And it is amazing, just the sheer amount of empathy going on in all these relationships and all the aspects of the story. And it’s interesting, because some research shows that groups if they’re very much alike, they actually don’t find empathy for each other, because they feel like if I had to suffer through it, you have to suffer through it. And what’s so moving to me is this is a story of, you know, like you said, multiple marginalized groups coming together. Despite that, and not, you know, well, you need to worry about your fight, and I’ll worry about my fight, but coming together and helping each other. What do you think? I’m going to ask you to wax poetic here a little bit, but what do you think is the lesson there for our larger society, about being able to overcome difference to move forward together?

Janice Munemitsu 22:53

I’m going to answer that with an example. I spoke to a group of educators recently, and one of the gentleman came up to me and said, you know, you use this word collaboration. I hear that all the time. He’s actually for that school. District T is their diversity, equity and inclusion officer has been in the business of education for years. And he said, I hear that all the time. What is your definition of it? Then I thought, Wow, I’ve never been asked that question before. And I so I said, this is off the top of my head, but I would say, collaboration requires a sacrifice, some sort of sacrifice. And he said, I’m going to have to think about this more. Because given the story that I wrote, The true story that I wrote, I think most of the collaboration in there was for more of a win win solution. But that meant that somebody didn’t win and someone lost, right? It was as best as they could to make this workout for all parties for mutual benefit. Mutual mutuality, right. And so I think, and we don’t have time to go into the whole story, but if your listeners are interested, we have a Japanese family, a Mexican family, but Jewish attorney, a Catholic federal judge, we have Thurgood Marshall and Robert Carter, who actually wrote a legal brief to support Mendes versus Westminster as black Americans, and they were working for the NAACP at the time. And we also have the Native American tribe of the Colorado River Indians, because our family was incarcerated in a in the desert in a very makeshift camp, right on the Colorado River Indian tribe reservation. The reason I mentioned that is that tribe and the Japanese Americans who were incarcerated there as well as their descendants have a collaboration. And I was the keynote speaker last October at the pilgrimage that they have every few years. And it’s very interesting to see what, two very diverse cultures, in some ways and in other ways they felt like our brothers and sisters. So I think in our story we don’t just have it’s not a Mexican and Japanese story. It’s a multicultural story in many ways of people doing what they could. Mm, given the circumstance, and of them not just thinking of themselves, but if thinking of it more as a whole. Yeah, more holistically. Yeah, because I don’t think I mean, I’ve not an author, I’ve written one book. But I don’t know that I could have crafted a story that would have naturally included so many different cultures and people, groups, and races. But that’s what happened here.

Maria Ross 25:56

That was reality. And I think the important thing here is to look at how people, so many people acted, they didn’t just stay silent. And they, when you talk about that collaboration, it’s them coming together to actually make this happen. And maybe they didn’t have the vision of how important or groundbreaking it was going to be. But it was about helping people through what they were going through right now.

26:23

And not just, you know, like, Oh, I

Maria Ross 26:26

feel really sorry for you, which is sympathy, right? But really taking action and going that extra step and being there to listen being there to support being there to act, being there to make the right connections, it all it is such a universal story. And just a great example of what happens when we harness our our differences and our individual strengths for the greater good. So I just love it. You mentioned earlier that you do talk to children and to schools. What is it meant to children to hear this story? Like you did mention a little bit before about them having that realization that half their classmates might not be there or wouldn’t be their friends. But do you see it having a profound impact on their views on diversity and inclusion?

Janice Munemitsu 27:13

Yes, I think so. I’ve not asked them that question. But a lot of the children have read the book you mentioned separate is not equal, but also a book called Silvia and Aki. And it’s a fictional story. But it’s Sylvia Mendez and my aunt Aki. They’re about about the same age. And the fictional part is that they were friends before World War Two. But it is based on fact, in that my aunt, as a seven year old went to the internment camps and Sylvia, you know, couldn’t go to school. So most of the young children I speak to or via zoo or email or in person have read that book. And what’s so interesting is, I noticed the other day I spoke to 106 kids from kindergarten to third grade. Wow. And they had the best questions, because they were actually picturing what that would have been like for them. And that area down right from the adult. The adult questions I get. They asked, what did they eat? Where were the bathrooms? What was the room? Like? Did they have a house? Did they have any kind of books? Which not necessarily, it was only what you could carry in a very small suitcase? Right. But the best question I think, I got asked maybe ever is did Aki have a happy life? After the camp? Oh my gosh. Now my aunt Aki was about 10 years old when she came back to the farm. And if you were to ask her, she felt very protected because of her father and mother, my dad. And so someone who is that young takes it a very different way. But I called my aunt Aki and I said, this, she goes, Wow, they asked that question. I said, Yeah, she goes, what’d she say? And I said, Well, I told them, you know, you have, there will be times you go through very, very hard things in life. But my aunt and my dad, they all had to make a choice of are we going to let this horrible thing that happened? define who we are? Or are we going to work hard and move forward for something better? And that’s not to say there wasn’t resentment or, you know, lots of emotional feelings, but it saying that’s not going to be what defines us. It’s not going to be our identity. And so, we were able to talk with the children about making those choices when bad things happen. To understand them, to put them in a proper place but do not let that you are A friend, define who you were created to be. And so it was a really, really good discussion. But if it kind of that was the first time anyone had ever asked, Did Omni have a happy life and after the camp? Were right, because you know, that child who asked it really wanted her to have a happy life. Yes, she wanted after the end. Yeah, she wanted a happy ending. And not just because it was happy, but it was, can you overcome something that’s difficult, and still have a productive and happy life? But it is a choice. They think, because my aunt and my dad, they could have chosen also to say, No, this happened. And I’m going to stay in the past in that regret, and resentment, and they could have based their life on that, right. So they had to choose. But I thought how sweet it was that those children, I think more than adults maybe would put themselves in that place and say, what would that be like? As opposed to say, well, we rationalize it because we’re in the midst of a world war, or we rationalize it, because it was for national security. They don’t know that stuff. They’re just saying, this other little girl who’s just like, my age, had to do this. I hope she’s okay. Right? It’s basically kind of the well, and that’s hard.

Maria Ross 31:19

That’s what’s so important about teaching young people helping them keep that skill, that innate skill of empathy that we’re all born with, strong and keep that muscle strong. And a big exercise to be able to do is to read books, watch documentaries, listen to music and learn about people whose lives are very different from your own, so that you can practice that cognitive empathy of what would it have been? Like? How would I have felt? that’s those are the seeds of creating an individual who has a very strong empathy muscle and can bring that muscle to bear in lots of different interactions as they grow up. And as they develop? I want to ask you really quickly, the title, the kindness of color, how did you land on that?

Janice Munemitsu 32:05

I knew that what makes this book different is all the different people who offered kindness to our family or Sylvia’s family, because that was another thing verbally telling the story. It’s just kind of striking of all the different names that you come up with. And frankly, because of the age of the story, in the 1940s, these people have all passed. And I always say, Henri Rivera, the truck driver has no idea his name is in a book. Yeah, but he didn’t do it for fame or for Look at me, he did it because of his character of honesty, integrity to help a friend. And so I really thought kindness had to be in, in the title of a book on racism and complete gold desegregation. And I was playing with some words, and I had been praying about it, like, what could this be called? What is going to encapsulate it and during the pandemic, I went out to, for a walk, and I just was like, Oh, the kindness of color. Net, a lot of people at first when I told him, they said, don’t you want it to be the color of kindness? I said, No. It’s the kindness of color. It’s that really, I hope it represents the diversity and the kindness that a diverse community brings in right in their own way. But each understanding what others may have suffered or been through with compassion, as opposed to comparison. I love that

Maria Ross 33:39

I kind of see you as a kindness advocate, activist,

33:42

if you will, I vote so I

Maria Ross 33:44

know. So I love it. I love it. And, you know, I love the way that you come out this, from that view of what’s possible. When people who are different come together we talk, you know, especially on the show, we talk a lot about diversity, equity and inclusion, as the strategy as you know, here’s all the benefits we get from that. But just this idea that there’s an ethos that comes from those groups coming together in collaboration with each other, and it is kindness. And just it seems, I don’t know, when you describe it that way, I can only imagine that to certain people. It makes diversity less threatening. It makes it more desirable. People want to be part of that. They want to be part of a kind community. And so I just really think it’s actually a brilliant title for a book. So as we wrap up, I did want to share I saw this poem on your website. And I wanted to share this because I thought it was beautiful. You wrote an English language Haiku, to bring a deeper meaning to the cover art that you had for the book. So I would just like to share it with the audience if that’s okay. Unless you would like to do you have the words in front of you. Okay, I would like you to share it. Okay. Thank you for Harry scoring that on you and then I was like, Oh, she’s got it right in front of her.

Janice Munemitsu 35:02

Thank you for noticing my Haiku. Yes. Anyway, here goes barbed wire imprisoned, war of bombs and racism. Hands off her kindness. Fences keep you out. Fight for school for all children. Hands off or kindness, no bar high fences, no barbed wire to imprison. Cultivate kindness. That’s beautiful.

Maria Ross 35:32

Thank you. What a grueling way to end this conversation, Janice, we are going to have all the links to the book and to you so folks can get in touch with you in the show notes. But just really quickly, where would be the best place that they can go to connect or find out more about the

Janice Munemitsu 35:47

book, I think would be the website, the kindness of color.com. And there’s a contact me, link, if they have questions if they need clarity, I am trying to also pull other resources to help, whether it be book clubs or teachers, I do have a resource, but on the website of all the different resources I pulled together, and they’re all free. So you could download them. I’ve recently put together a map of Westminster that shows some of the sites of where this is, it’s all within like a two mile area, right where the farm was where the schools were. And so there’s lots of resources. So please, if you are more interested in more detail, check out the kindness of color.com.

Maria Ross 36:32

Yeah, I did want to mention that you’ve got a blog there the resources for teachers, students and readers. So that’s really a great, great place to go. And I also should mention that in 2022, we celebrated the 75th anniversary of this landmark case, and just in so many ways we’ve come so far in so many ways, we’re still stuck in some outdated thinking. So it’s just really interesting to reflect on all that has happened since then, and and the work we still have left

Janice Munemitsu 36:59

to do. Yes, I often say when I speak, if all this could happen in the midst of a World War, we certainly can do better. Yes, that same night. So I hope people are inspired to really see what everyday kindness, especially to those who are different than we are. You might be how much that really does matter. Love it.

Maria Ross 37:23

Thank you so much Janice, for your insights and for sharing your story with us. Thank you. Thank you everyone for listening to another wonderful episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or a colleague. Until next time and our next guest. Please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Sam Fleischacker: Adam Smith on Empathy and the Free Market

Captains of industry and political pundits who believe the free market economy will save us all love to cite 18th-century social thinker Adam Smith and his book The Wealth of Nations. In it, he championed self-interest and a free market as a catalyst for societal improvement. But he also assumed those with the power and privilege would consider the needs of others within that free market system. Somewhere along the way, his ideas around empathy and moral obligation got stripped away from his economic philosophy. See, back then, the lines were blurred between economists, social thinkers, and philosophers.

Today, I talk with Sam Fleischacker, an expert on Adam Smith, to clarify what Smith really thought about a free market and our responsibilities to society within it. We also talk about what is distinctive about Smith’s conception of empathy in his own time and how it squares with today. Sam shares how empathy affects Smith’s proposals for economic policy, what he had to say about our tendency to empathize more with people we already know and care for than for people very distant from us, and the big question: Should we try to empathize with people we think are evil?

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Judgment isn’t always negative and, in some cases, it can be used to form connections – such as admiring strength of character or showing sensitivity.
Consuming art, literature, documentary and other stories of people that have different lives from you is a way to stretch your brain and think more empathetically.
You must empathize with people you don’t agree with, even those who you consider evil. If you want to have any hope of changing them, you need to do that. You don’t have to approve of it, but you have to at least try to understand them. Empathy and criticism are not incompatible.

“Smith is very much about thinking about what everybody wants, from their own perspective, that is to say, empathizing with them. And I think that’s gotten badly lost on both the left and the right in public policy.” — Sam Fleischacker

About Sam Fleischacker, LAS Distinguished Professor of Philosophy

Sam Fleischacker is LAS Distinguished Professor of Philosophy at the University of Illinois in Chicago. He works on moral and political philosophy, and the philosophy of religion. He is the author of nine books, including Adam Smith, Being Me Being You: Adam Smith and Empathy, A Third Concept of Liberty: Judgment and Freedom in Kant and Adam Smith, and On Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations: A Philosophical Companion. He was President of the International Adam Smith Society from 2006 to 2010.

References Mentioned:

Edwin Rutsch, The Empathy Edge podcast: How Empathy Circles Can Change the World

David Weissman, The Empathy Edge podcast: From MAGA to Jewish Liberal Progressive

MARIA’S COURSE

Connect with Sam Fleischacker

University of Illinois at Chicago: https://phil.uic.edu/philosophy/people/faculty/fleischacker

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sam.fleischacker.7

Books:

Adam Smith (Routledge, 2021)

Being Me Being You: Adam Smith and Empathy (University of Chicago Press, 2019)

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

03:42

Thank you so much for inviting me, Maria, this is great.

Maria Ross 03:45

Well tell us a little bit about your work. We know that you are a professor of philosophy, and you are a big fan of Adam Smith, and speak about him at lots of different events in lots of different venues. Tell us a little bit about how you got into this work, what drew you into philosophy, and specifically your interest in Adam Smith and his impact on our world today? And tell us a little bit also about who he is for those who don’t know?

Sam Fleishacker 04:11

Sure. So I got interested in philosophy. Even when I was in high school, I was worried about questions about whether there’s a God, what’s the point of living all the biggest,

Maria Ross 04:23

common 10 questions? Yeah.

Sam Fleishacker 04:26

I haven’t yet to find a satisfactory answer to most of that. But then I went to college and studied philosophy and and on to graduate school, and I wrote a dissertation about the role of cultural norms and ethics. And when I came out, in my first year of teaching, I was teaching a class on British moral sentiment theory. That school of moral philosophy in the 18th century 1700s The most famous member of it is David Hume. But there are other people like Francis Hutcheson. Lord Shaftesbury not so well known today. What was distinctive about them is that they thought that morality is rooted in how we feel, rather than in our reason. And one of the main ones is Adam Smith, who was also a very good friend, arguably the best friend of David Hume. They’re both from Scotland. And they both were writing about the human mind. And they’re both founders, really, the social sciences, as well as the philosophy of social science, do more of history. But he also has important things to say about economics and political science. And Adam Smith is best known as the author of The Wealth of Nations, or as it’s technically called, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, which is regarded by many people as the founding textbook of economics. It isn’t actually the first thing that was ever written about economics, but it’s probably the first systematic, extensive treatise on the subject. And it was thought for a long time in many schools and was very, very influential on the rest of the discipline. And for because he’s so famous for that, but people think he wasn’t economists. Now, first of all, in the 18th century, people weren’t divided that neatly between economist and philosopher are economists, political scientists, philosopher, psychologist, sociologists, both human Smith could be called all of those things. But this typically was a professor of moral philosophy at the University of Glasgow where he also got his own degree. And he was a student of Francis Hutchison. And he took over Hutchison’s courses in one was this huge year long course, which started with moral philosophy. And then went to philosophy of law, and then did policy at the end. And the policy included heavily economic policy. And Smith taught that and he was actually going to publish books on each part of it. But he never got around to doing the law part. I think if he had ever published that he might be known as a legal thinker instead of an economist. So this is all part of one project.

Maria Ross 07:02

I love that he, you know, back then it was sort of a blurred line around economics, social thinking philosophy, because we just spoke about the fact that in my first book, I had a reference to Adam Smith that I got from Roman Chris menarik, from his book. And I talked about the fact that he is cited as championing self interest as the catalyst for societal improvement in the Wealth of Nations. And he’s seen as the forefather, and he’s often bastardized to justify greed in economics, when actually he also wrote The Theory of Moral Sentiments, and talked about concepts like empathy and collaboration. And so I love that there was this duality about him where they they very clearly saw a link between economic structures, and moral imperatives. Can you talk a little bit about that? How did that start that way? And where did we lose our way?

Sam Fleishacker 08:01

Yeah, that’s a big question. I should say that, as regard men, this has been a question people have been worrying about for about 150 years that the in fact, at the end of the 19th century, in Germany, you have people who talk about what they call in German, of course, that’s Adam Smith, probleem, which means the problem of how you put together the Wealth of Nations and the Theory of Moral Sentiments, because they said in The Theory of Moral Sentiments, Smith is talking all about sympathy, X, his word, they didn’t have the word empathy, then, and benevolence and virtue and in the Wealth of Nations, they said, He only talks about self interest. Now, I should say, I don’t think this is really a fair reading of either book, Smith thinks that there is some kind of virtuous acting on your own self interest, even in the Theory of Moral Sentiments, that is caring about yourself, caring for your own health and your life is a moral duty. He thinks you’re you should do that, as do most people, actually. And most thinkers at the time would have said, and since that said, it’s a virtue to take care of yourself and to let yourself go, suicide to become drug addicted or something. This is actually a moral failing. But he also believed very strongly in benevolence. And in fact, he said that a lot goes wrong if we care too much about ourselves. He says it was a great rule of Christianity is to love your neighbor as yourself. And he says, the great rule of nature is to love yourself, only as much as you love your neighbor. Not more than that. But he did think self interest was a driver of economic activity, as again most people did. And he draws out how we can actually help each other satisfy our own interests in a free market without any government control or with very minimal government control simply acting on our self interest in the Wealth of Nations. He certainly does say that he’s not present greed, but he is saying that acting on your own self interest on acting by yourself without being told what to do by the government is a good thing, I think because the Theory of Moral Sentiments was kind of overshadowed by the Wealth of Nations. And what Smith said in his moral philosophy. It’s kind of interesting that it wasn’t that exciting to people. And wasn’t that different from other things at the time. By the 19th century, and certainly later, nowadays, most people usually read just a few sentences cut out from Smith in the economics textbook, people have forgotten that he had a wider moral theory in which he wanted to place his economic theory. And so

Maria Ross 10:33

that leads me to the question, again, because you mentioned that he did, he used the term sympathy back then, which was akin to what we call empathy today. And he actually defined it as, quote, changing places and fancy with the suffer. But where how does empathy effect his proposals for economic policy? Can you explain the link he talked about in terms of that, if it’s a free market, and there’s no regulation? What was the role of empathy in that economic prosperity and in that economic model?

Sam Fleishacker 11:07

So I’d love to talk about that as one of my favorite things about the Wealth of Nations. But could we backtrack a little bit, we didn’t talk about what Smith in detail thinks empathy is because he really has a different view of it from other people, including his friend, David Hume. And I think that’s how both of you put Yeah, nicely changing places with a sufferer, but quite how unusual that is, is worth Brown. Yes, so far, cume, sympathy is catching somebody else’s feeling. Man, he has a complicated explanation of how you do that. But you know, if somebody else is sad, you feel sad, if they’re happy, you feel happy. If they’re angry, you feel angry. And basically, that’s the mechanism for him even calls it contagion at one point,

Maria Ross 11:50

which is what we know to be emotional empathy at this, in our current world, yeah, after effective empathy.

Sam Fleishacker 11:57

For Smith, it’s feeling what you think you would feel if you were in another person’s situation, right? So sometimes that means feeling what they’re feeling. Sometimes it means feeling it less strongly or more strongly, sometimes it means feeling something quite different. So on the one hand, if you stub your toe, and you start screaming and yelling all over the place, I might think, man, it’s not that bad. That’s not how I would feel and I disapprove of you a bit, or rebuked you for making too much fast. If on the other hand, you’re going through something very painful and you are feeling it or expressing less pain than I think I would feel, then I might admire you and think, oh, wow, she’s, she’s really stoic. She can handle pain. She really, I’ve been very impressed by you. Right? So I measure what you feel by what I think I would feel in your circumstances. And it could be different.

Maria Ross 12:50

Right? And it’s because it’s your own lens. Yeah, your own

Sam Fleishacker 12:53

lens. And sometimes the lens is completely different. Smith gives the example of seeing somebody who, either because they’re drunk, or or they they might, and they’re not in a good mental state, or dancing and singing and clowning around inappropriately, you don’t think if I were in that situation, I would behave in the same way you think if I were in this situation, I’d be ashamed of myself. Just completely different. Right. So the point about what I call on behalf projective, empathy, as opposed to contagious empathy, is that it gives you a standpoint by which you can feel what other people feel but also measure their feelings to some extent, and either approve or disapprove, depending upon how much what they seem to be feeling Mac does what you think one should feel, and you would feel in their circumstance.

Maria Ross 13:44

So this is interesting, because we talk about this today as like I said, affective empathy. But also cognitive empathy is the mental exercise of imagining what it must be like for you or trying to, to see the situation through your perspective. Effective empathy is when the emotions get involved. But

Sam Fleishacker 14:03

that can say, I think that Smith wouldn’t accept, right, that dichotomy, because they’re both effective. When you project yourself, you’re still feeling something is just a different feeling different kinds of feelings. So I don’t think he would exactly line up with the wave data,

Maria Ross 14:19

he probably wouldn’t. But that’s the way they define it today. Right? So the point being that we often talk about it that in terms of the good it can do, but in my talks, especially talk about what are the pitfalls of that? Where can that go wrong? And that’s actually what you just got to whereas now you get into judgment, you get into I wouldn’t do it that way, or I wouldn’t feel that way or again, you can be biased of even the way you see it might not be the way the other person sees it, because you’re looking at it through your own frame of reference. And so it’s very interesting that there’s a that can be good or bad. And I hate using those terms, but but you can use it where it’s it’s productive. It creates connection. But it can also be something where it creates distance as well and creates some judgment,

Sam Fleishacker 15:07

the I would add further complexity, and partly on Smith’s behalf because Smith also thinks each of us is constantly seeking other people’s sympathy or empathy. And because of that we change how we feel or how we express how we feel. So a young child, for instance, may indeed jump all around the room screaming every time it stops, it’s no. But as the child gets older, they learn to restrain the feeling and often have a different version of the feeling that’s called maturity, right? Called growing up. And this is how we adjust ourselves to one another. So I actually think even the judgment sometimes is a good thing. And it’s a way of forming connection. After all, remember, the judgment can also be positive, if I admire you for your strength of character, or even for for showing a sensitivity that I don’t show to right? Well, I may emulate you, I may want to be like you. So that’s also a form of connection. Yeah, all these hasn’t gone many different directions. I love

Maria Ross 16:04

this. I love this. So let’s get back to that question of how, in Adam Smith’s view, how did empathy affect? How does empathy effect economic policy?

Sam Fleishacker 16:15

Okay, so I should say that this is me reading Smith. And I know a lot of people have really stressed this about the Wealth of Nations, I would strongly say it’s there. So I’ll give you my favorite example. There’s a point where Smith is suggesting tax policy, the tax policy part, the boring today’s reading with three, this was actually the favorite part for ministers in the British government at the time they get looking through it to find new taxes they could impose on people, or how to impose taxes. But that’s not exactly what Smith has in mind. He’s looking for taxes that will be efficient, but also fair. And one of his suggestions in terms of fairness, I should say some of those famous proposals and clewd, redistributive taxes, at least to a certain degree from redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor, is very much not the greed and all capitalism is a good view that’s attributed to him. But one of the things he says is that the tax gather of who is taxing a house should tax according to the number of windows in the house and not the number of cars. Why? Because if you’re going to tax people’s hearts, the fireplace this you have to go inside. And nobody really wants to tax gather in their house, they you know, it’s kind of offensive and an invasion of privacy and you don’t like taxes anyway. So that meeting them and having them traipse around your house is going to be very upsetting, while window tax you can do just by looking around the outside. And I think that policy depends upon really in quite detail, thinking yourself into the situation of a person who is having their house invaded or debate for the back. I mean, it’s a fairly trivial example. But it’s also one that shows a great deal of sensitivity to how policies in practice affect people. A more famous example, which actually also clearly shows a great deal of empathy is that myth that we should not tax on necessities, only luxuries. And he says that a linen shirt might be considered a luxury for a poor worker. But it’s really these days deep says a necessity because and people would feel ashamed of themselves if they went out in public without having a linen shirt. He also says about shoes. So he’s thought in considerable detail about what the lives especially interestingly, of poor people are like, and what it is to what what will humiliate them, what kinds of policies will affect them in a way that they’ll feel bad about themselves, that they’ll lose their sense of self respect. And I don’t think he could have come up with that, those kinds of insights without a great deal of empathy.

Maria Ross 19:07

So before we get to our next amazing questions that I’ve got for you, I’ve got so many, but I want to know, where do you think that’s gone? astray? So like we mentioned earlier, there’s a lot of free market. Economists and business leaders who cite Smith all the time in terms of, you know, self interest is what drives the economy and drives prosperity, and they’re not encapsulating the whole picture that he seems to have flushed out. Is there a trendline of when that started to separate? Or anything you can point to of where that thinking started to get pulled away where only the greed part of it got pulled through. And then, you know, looking at economic policies today in Western nations, where did it start to uncouple

19:58

so if you think it

Maria Ross 19:59

uncoupled you might not believe that it uncoupled. But if that is something that you subscribed to where do you think that started happening?

Sam Fleishacker 20:07

So I think uncoupling Smith from his moral foundations, this happened in many ways. I do agree with that I’m one one respect is that the attention is paid to the poor, which was so important to him. And to many of his immediate followers. His followers tended to be the more radical people at the end of the 18th century, not what we would think of as the right way, April as it were. And he always shows tremendous respect for the poor, not a condescension towards them. So that’s gotten lost. Another is the way in which pessimist, whole moral philosophy and simply a stalker has been has faded away. And we talk simply about the role of self interest in the Wealth of Nations. But a third thing, and this is something I’ve stressed to a lot of my students is a way in which policy has been driven by basically utilitarian concerns, rather than empathy, basically. And then what I mean by that is, policymakers very, very often think about the people that they’re making policy for in terms of debt, objects, perhaps, who want pleasure and want to avoid pain, and maybe they care about them. And that tends to want to make them want to increase their pleasure. But they’re not thinking from the people’s perspective, to think about what, how do we get them what they want? But not, how do we make sure that we are thinking about what they want from their own perspective. And one effect of that is, in terms of economics, what you usually hear is simply about how efficient the free market is, or how the free market can increase goods and distributed them? Well, you don’t hear kind of thing that I was talking about right now. Well, do the people, especially at the lower end of the economic ladder, for workers, for instance, people who don’t have much say in public policy, do they want what we think they want, public policy, mountain makers are often very top down, even manipulative, and they’ve been trained in the best schools to think they know what’s best for everyone. And that begins to get going really, I would say, at the middle in the middle of the 19th century, and continues to some extent to this day among Democrats and Republicans alike. You tried to figure out what you think will be good for those people. And you figure that they don’t know what they want for themselves. And Smith is very much about thinking about what everybody wants, from their own perspective. And that is to say, empathizing with them. And I think that’s gotten badly lost on both the left and the right and public policy.

Maria Ross 22:43

That is fascinating, because I think that that’s something we have, we’ve lost that I love how he brought in morality and the heart and and the humanitarian concern of how economic policy can impact people’s lives. Yeah, and people that were not necessarily like him. Right. So I would love to hear what you have to say about what Smith has to say about our tendency to empathize more with people we already know and care for, than for people that are very distant from us, because I think what happens in our very polarized society right now, is that we can imagine what, what those lives are like, because in our bubble, everyone looks and acts and functions the same. And so what did he have to say about that?

Sam Fleishacker 23:34

So Smith, there’s a section of his Theory of Moral Sentiments, that is known by scholars as the circles of sympathy. And he’s drawing there on an ancient idea goes back to the Roman stoic, that our care goes out in circles that we care most about ourselves and our families. A little bit more about the people we see every day. Smith mentions neighborhoods, and he mentioned office workers, he says, people in the same office call each other brothers that sometimes really feel that way, which is nice. And I think sometimes true, not always. And then still, we still care. But again, and again, and then we could weigh about every member of our country. And then just some small extent, Smith thinks we can care about the well being of any preacher that fields including animals in the entire universe. So that’s very weak. Our broad care for human beings is very weak. So the circles get weaker as you go further out. And I think he’s right. And he’s aware that that can mean for instance, that you don’t care very much about me in the hate the people, the next country. And he talks about national prejudice as one of the most terrible sources of conflict and completely unnecessary. It’s actually one reason why he wrote The Wealth of Nations actually, he really thought the idea that Britain has to do down French industry that, you know, the British have to destroy the French economy or the French have to destroy the British economy in order to be successful themselves. I thought that was ridiculous. That’s a win win game. International trade is helpful to everyone. And that’s the main sense in which he’s a free trader, actually, he’s it’s not so much about no government interference in in your local economy, as free trade across nations across the world. But he recognized that it’s just a natural fact about us that we don’t care that much about people we don’t know. And in fact, it’s very interesting, he doesn’t tie even family love to any biological kinship. It’s not that we have the same blood, it’s that we know each other well, Mac, the phrase he uses for the basis of caring about people, which I think is lovely, is habits of sympathy, or habitual sympathy. The people you have are in the habit of sympathizing with are people that you come to care about. And that does point to at least a partial solution, which is you have to get into the habit of sympathizing with empathizing with very different people. And of course, you can’t meet everybody. So the face to face contact, which is very important to this for him. And for others at the time, you know, you can’t hope to care about all this distant people. But he also thought because empathy works through the imagination, projecting yourself in imagination into other people’s place, places that literature can help. He’s a big promoter of imagine more than any other philosopher of

Maria Ross 26:42

the time. Right. And actually, I talked about that in the book in terms of consuming art, literature, film documentary from people that have very different lives from you, and being able to stretch that muscle of what might their life be like and start getting your brain to think that way. But I want to ask a question about this an offshoot question, do you think that’s why that purest form? I’ve had this discussion with lots of people over the course of my life. Do you think that’s why economic regulation legal, you know, policy regulation is required, because people ultimately fall back on their own self interests. And so the true free market economy can’t flourish without regulation, because of our very human traits of only being empathetic to people that are just like us.

Sam Fleishacker 27:34

Wow, that’s so interesting. I actually hadn’t thought about it in these terms. Exactly. So I’ll try that I have to put Smith rather than for me. Okay. I think Smith thinks that trading and knowing who to trade with and knowing what’s going to be a useful economic relationship is something you don’t need regulation for. Because you don’t really care what the other person is like if they have something to offer that you like to buy from them. Right. And if they seem to be a good worker, you’ll hire them. And that will overcome prejudice. And you don’t need to worry about

Maria Ross 28:06

that’s a perfect world. Yeah, exactly. But he wasn’t

Sam Fleishacker 28:10

living in a world in which there was an issue state of racial prejudice getting in the way of hiring that wasn’t an issue around him. He, he didn’t know about that. He was very opposed to slavery, by the way. And he did think if we could we need a regulation to get rid of slavery. But he also thought that only a monarch is likely to get rid of slavery. And in a democracy, that people who own slaves are going to have a lot of money and they’re going to make sure that you don’t have lost labor. It is on the pessimistic about that. But in terms of other regulations, he did think you need basic regulation regulations to make sure that that your property is protected, you’re protected against fraud and contracts are protected. Most people even extreme free marketeers agree with that the stay in a certain rules of justice. But beyond that, he thought that the exchange world could work on its own pretty well. I think that if you really want to overcome you want to new Smith to overcome deep seated prejudice. The main place, the main Smithian tool would be to introduce literature about very unfamiliar people into into your schooling. It’s not that he actually suggests that but that fits with what his proposals on other things best, right other people’s religions, other people’s cultures,

Maria Ross 29:36

just because it is a very utopian view that that’s the way the free market should work. And then you introduce, you know, excess greed, you introduce selfishness, you introduce prejudice, you introduce just all those human emotions and tendencies that make it not work as balanced as it should on paper.

Sam Fleishacker 29:59

Yeah, I needed a look, I should add, didn’t think that we should have some regulations to redistribute wealth. As I indicated, he had very modest suggestions. The main point was that when the government is building things, it needs to especially build things that private people won’t build on their own. So rich people often take care of themselves very nicely. But a lot of taking care of the roads, for instance, take making sure that freight can pass easily, it’s very important to the poor people, and that government has to make sure that it directs its monies that way. to a limited extent, he also thought that regulations could counteract prejudices here, the prejudice he has in mind isn’t maybe one way of thinking about so much these days, it was prejudice against merchants actually, corn merchants, popular prejudice, thinking that the reason why the price of bread is high is because merchants are just keeping it for themselves. And, and just making profit, he actually stopped us free trade and corn would lower the price of bread, and that if you had regulations that would get rid of restrictions on the price of wheat, actually, that’s what he calls corn, then the prejudice against merchants might disappear. So law can do something to mitigate prejudice. But I don’t think he thinks that government can do that much to change who we are, right? moral education is something that happens in families and right once one contact, and if governments try to take it on as a project, it’s not going to work.

Maria Ross 31:32

And that’s I think that’s the reality is, if everyone had, if any, everyone was in agreement on the moral imperative, and on taking care of each other, and on that ethos, then a free market, without any regulations would work, because everyone would be doing the right get the quote, unquote, right thing for each other. But in reality, that’s not what happens. It’s even even in the best of companies that start with good intentions of, you know, doing no harm or doing no evil. Like some companies, we know, eventually, they get so big and so powerful that that takes over. And then the human drive, for selfishness and FOR MORE And for a higher stock price and for how can I get my labor as cheap as possible and earn, you know, the best profit margins I can start to take over. And so I’m just curious if he had any cautionary tales for us about what happens when it does get out of control.

Sam Fleishacker 32:31

So one thing to bear in mind is that there were no large operations of the kinds that we’re thinking of in his day. What you had was some government encouraged industries like the East India Company, government encouraged businesses government run, really, and he was very against the East India Company, he thought it was terrible. But since you didn’t have limited liability, limited liability only comes in at the end of the 19th century, you really don’t have corporations now sense. It’s all fairly small shop. Got it. And they can’t get too much out of control. They’re just not big enough to get out of control. They can have only most they’re going to have a very limited control of of the market. One person who had started Frodo large company at the time is Josiah Wedgwood, from when we get all the Wedgwood, pottery and Smith probably disliked him. There’s some reasons to think that he gets a letter A year before the Wealth of Nations comes out from Burke, who’s in parliament is and it was a friend was Smith. And at that point was a liberal, I should say, not a conservative, and Burke says that Wedgwood has been pretending, claiming that helping his business would help the whole of Britain. And Burke says I don’t like it when businessmen claim that helping their business does good for the rest of the country. I will say we honestly say they’re doing it out of their self interest. And Smith includes a version of that line in the Wealth of Nations without mentioning weds word, saying that basically, that merchants who claim that what they’re doing is good for the whole country, and usually not speaking good faith, and you should just get them to shut up.

Maria Ross 34:14

He would not like some of the modern business leaders that I don’t know. Well, let’s this leads me into my last question, which is a big question. And it’s kind of all rooted in this because when we talk about differences in philosophy around the moral imperative of rich versus poor or business versus consumer, or you know, all of these things that their economic policies, but they also reflect our, our moral sentiments, many of these economic policies that we subscribe to, I get this question a lot. And I told you, I never know how to answer it in a great way. But should we try to empathize with people we think are evil. Where does our tolerance for empathy. When does our responsibility for empathy run out? If it does?

Sam Fleishacker 35:07

That’s a great question. And it is actually the question of the last chapter of my book. It’s called, that chapter is called empathy and demonization. And I do argue, without apology, that yes, we should try to empathize with people who are evil. In fact, I don’t hold no holds barred bear. I’m a son of a refugee from Nazi Germany, both both my parents were refugees from Nazi Germany. But I think we should empathize with Nazis. And were the white nationalists. Why? And their Capistan going beyond Smith, they’re talking about exercising the vote that Brett Smith, so rather lovely, perhaps naive, non demonic view of human beings in general, or yes, people he criticizes, he says, oh, you should do the best that you’re doing the best they can. He’s very rarely rarely he really

Maria Ross 36:00

understood their context. It sounds like Right.

Sam Fleishacker 36:03

However bad they were he’d ever demonize them because right, it was the people. But look, you can demonize him, I think correctly. You can see a lot of a lot of people as grossly, grossly evil. Why empathize with them anyway? Well, first, let’s remember what you were calling in accordance with a lot of current usage, cognitive empathy, and I’m calling projective empathy. Smithian empathy, which the but remember that I said that that does involve Smith, dealing what somebody else feels when you project yourself into their circumstances? Why should you do that with evil people? Well, I’ll give you three reasons. First of all, if you want to have any hope, of changing them, you need to do that. You don’t have to approve of that. But you have to at least try to understand them. And think of how you might do what they’re doing. Understanding I think means figuring out, maybe you wouldn’t do some of the horrible things that the people you’re talking about are doing. But how could you get the situation in which you might be tempted to do that? I can’t imagine myself doing what the Nazis did. But I can imagine myself, going through a process in which I became an exam is a horrible thought. But I can’t imagine that happening. And if I want to have any stance of changing a Nazi, I need to do that. Now, I don’t know how good our chances are of changing Nazis period, there are these stories, especially in fact, in a lot of empathy broadcasts and podcasts, about some former white nationalists, white Nazis in America have been turned around often by way of empathetic exercises. So I think that’s encouraging, but I doubt it happens a lot. But the second thing is, do you want to prevent other people from becoming not this from becoming white nationalists from becoming terribly evil in some other respect, empathizing with what gets people into the sponsor vivo is necessary if you want to prevent it, right. And then the third thing, and maybe the most difficult thing is if we don’t try to empathize with the evil, we block ourselves from recognizing the potential for evil in ourselves. And I think eBay, basically, it’s a matter of either own up to the fact that you yourself could become exactly what you most hate, you know, horrible, fanatic, killing people, cruelly greedy person, etc. Or you have at least the possibility that you will act like that, or will eventually become like that, without knowing it. you block yourself from seeing the wrong you’re doing and that you’re capable of, if you can’t empathize with other people like that. So the Renaissance slogan, nothing human is alien to me. I think we have to recognize that good and bad we can, everything anyone else does for the good. Because it’s what a human being has done, we can share. But everything every other human being does that evil, because it’s what another human being does, we also can share that. So I think a true humanism involves an effort in empathizing with others, you can still condemn them when you do. Right. Right. But I think empathy and and, and criticism are not incompatible and May, but the criticism that comes up empathy is a deeper and more thoughtful criticism.

Maria Ross 39:35

I think completely and you know, when I have talked to folks about empathy, it’s it doesn’t mean that you agree with someone. Right. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with the work of Edwin Racz, who I’ve quoted many times on this podcast. He has the Center for building a culture of empathy based out of Berkeley, California, and he has done global trainings for years around a process called empathy circles. which is a facilitation technique that he has actually taken to the country’s most divisive political rallies, and gotten people from both sides of the spectrum into a tent, an empathy tent, to have a conversate, an active listening conversation with each other. And the goal is not to convert to one ideology or another because that won’t happen. The goal is for them to see each other as human. And understand the context. I don’t agree with you. But I could see how you got there type of situation. And so the more conversations we can have like that, the I think the better for everyone, because I think it elevates everybody, it gets both sides thinking. It gets both sides understanding that we’re dealing with human beings that one person really believes their point of view is right, and the other person really believes their point of view is right. And how do we go forward from there? That the answer can’t be that we stopped talking to each other.

Sam Fleishacker 40:56

I even think that adds what a fourth reason for doing this kind of empathizing to the three HSK. A is somebody who even somebody who you may think of as happening, absolutely hateful ideology, if they see you trying to empathize with them, it might not change them, but at least it’s more likely to build some respect for you to open them up a little bit. Because that’s one of the things that they’re probably looking for some kind of respect, right understanding of who they are and where they’re coming from. Well, I

Maria Ross 41:29

had a guest on the show, David Weissman, who has become an influencer in social media. He was a very, very strong Magga proponent, a former veteran, and he changed his mind. And it was through the power of conscious effort, very empathetic conversations, where it turned out he had just grown up in a world where he was fed certain information. And he completely believed it about the quote unquote, other side about liberals about Democrats. He was raised to believe that they were evil, and they were trying to destroy the country. And it was only when he was able to have conversations where people weren’t judging him where people were, were talking with him and trying to understand what he’d been through that he realized the brainwashing he’d been through. And now he is what he calls a progressive, Jewish liberal, right? So he has really made that switch. And I interviewed him for the show. And it’s just so wonderful when you see like, people didn’t give up on him. They they continue to try to engage in conversation. And yeah, maybe it was their ultimate goal, quote, unquote, conversion, maybe. But they also gave him space to listen to reflect, to question his own beliefs, like you said, their empathy, and their respect for him, gave him the space to not dig in his heels so much, and do more learning, and do more reading and do more investigation of the facts on his own. So that he realized, oh, what I’ve been fed, my whole life is actually a false narrative. He never would have done that, if he was put on the defensive.

Sam Fleishacker 43:07

There’s great work like that going on in Israel and Palestine at the moment. And I know people who are involved in that, that’s the cause of close to my heart, is the brief parent circle, which has Israelis and Palestinians who have both lost family members to violence. There are a whole bunch of other groups. And in fact, I know someone quite well went through something very much like what you’re saying he began engaging in these empathetic discussions. He is an Israeli settler, with Palestinians. And at first, all he wanted was to understand them, and to have conversations, but it really led him to become very concerned about denials of Palestinian rights and to become something of an activist for Palestinian rights. That really changed him a lot. And it’s changed people on the other side as well. So I mean, it’s unfortunately, it’s very small, it’s low level, it’s grassroots. But I do see in Israel, Palestine, some of these kinds of empathetic conversations is one of the most, one of the few real points of light in that dark region at the moment.

Maria Ross 44:13

Well, that’s a wonderful place to leave it off. Uh, Sam, thank you so much for this conversation. i As always with my guests, I could probably talk to you for another hour, but I won’t keep you we will have all the links in the show notes, especially to your book being me being you Adam Smith and empathy. But for folks that are on the go right now listening, where’s the best place they can get in touch with you?

Sam Fleishacker 44:34

They can Google me and I have a web page on my unit at the university or they can get in touch with me on my Facebook page. I think that the damn

Maria Ross 44:44

dot flash Hacker dot seven. Yes. Yes, that’s fine. We will have that link in the show notes as well. Sam,

44:50

thank you for the stay off, though. It was a delight to be here.

Maria Ross 44:53

Yes. It was such a great conversation. I’d love to continue the conversation with you offline as well another event us but thank you for your time and your insights today a very unique point of view and, and a well deserved point of view of Adam Smith and his intentions and, and where the role of empathy does have a place in economic policy and in our current climate today. So thank

Sam Fleishacker 45:15

you. You’re welcome. Thanks so much for having me on.

Maria Ross 45:19

Thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always, if you like what you heard, please rate review and share with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

August Hot Take: Why Connecting Through Story Works So Well

We are too often sleepwalking through our lives. Rushing from here to there, where people we come in close contact with become mere extras in the screenplay of our day. But what if you could take some time and find a way to connect with someone over a shared joy, or frustration, or cool coffee drink – or gaudy pink flamingo earrings? What if you could do this with the people you see and interact with every day – your co-workers?

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Story is up to 22x more memorable than just facts alone.The best approach for data retention is to incorporate it into a story.
Story touches hearts and changes minds in a way that data, facts, and figures cannot do alone.
Stories unite us and connect us, across any perceived barriers. They can touch, delight, provoke, anger, move, or propel us into action.

“If you want people to remember you – or your business, cause, or movement – and take action, the best way is to tell your story.” — Maria Ross

Episode References:

Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die by Chip Heath and Dan Heath
John Millen blog, 4 Reasons Stories are So Memorable

MARIA’S COURSE

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Hi, Maria here with a quick announcement for all you business owners, entrepreneurs and marketers out there. Does it feel like no one knows who you are or the value of what you do? Or worse, the wrong people are showing up at your door prospects who won’t pay you what you’re worth can’t make the most of your offerings or suck your energy dry. My problem you say is I know I could get the right customers if I could nail how to talk about this thing. You may know what you do well, but figuring out how to talk about it and market it can be overwhelming. If you’re here you know, empathy is the key to a thriving culture and perfect brand story that attracts all the right people. Join me to build the brand story that will attract more of your ideal clients and boost your business success. The authentic genuine story that is unique to you and your business. And that helps you stand out brand story breakthrough. Five weeks, playbooks videos, live weekly coaching, and even my eyes on your work. In the end, you’ll have your elevator pitch, brand story, website, copy, and everything you need to start moving your business forward and getting attention for your amazing work. Next cohort starts September 8. Get more details and sign up at Bitly slash BSB course that’s bi T dot L y slash BSB. course right now, before the spots are all gone. I hope to see you there. You’re in line at a coffee shop. You notice that the woman behind you is wearing a pair of giant pink flamingo earrings. We’re talking almost neon pink that hurts your eyes and hearing so large, they seem to graze her shoulders. You immediately catch yourself staring at the same moment she catches you staring now mind you if you choose to go in public with earrings like this. I’m sorry, you can’t be mad if people stare. You smile awkwardly and she grins. What can happen next? One path suggests you both politely smile at each other maybe even giggle and then go about your day. Another path suggests that you immediately laugh and say Wow, your earrings remind me of a trip I took with my family to Florida as a kid. When I got a stuffed pink flamingo as a souvenir. I slept with that thing every night for most of my childhood. And she may add actually, that’s where I got them. It was hilarious. My late husband and I went on this boat cruise and got stuck out at sea for a few unplanned extra hours. As soon as we got back to shore I found a souvenir shop and grab the most gaudy thing I could find so I could forever remember this crazy adventure. You both laugh, order your coffees and wave goodbye. Which interaction created more of a connection. Just think about everything you both learned about each other in that one to two minute exchange of stories. She was married once but lost her husband. She got stranded at sea on a boat cruise. And she has a sense of humor and that she wanted to remember what she termed a crazy adventure with something fun and audacious. She learned that you took family vacations, loved stuffed animals, and cherish this goofy souvenir as a bedtime comfort throughout your childhood. You both connected through the power of story. I sometimes intentionally spark or Kindle stories to make connections with strangers, complimenting someone on their shirt or bag commiserating over bad customer service or empathizing with a frantic young mom juggling three unruly kids. While those moments may only last seconds, you feel connected in this world, like you see people really see people and they see you. But why do we as humans love stories so much? According to a great blog posts written by storytelling expert John Millan, I’ll link to this in the show notes for you. We as humans are hardwired for storytelling. He writes about the work of Stanford graduate schools, Dr. Jennifer acre, who found that quote, a story is up to 22 times more memorable than facts alone. In her studies, acre had students give one minute pitches, nine of 10 presentations were heavily supported by facts and figures. The 10th presentation told a human story in support of the position. Her research found that only 5% of the audience could recall a statistic, but fully 63% remembered the stories. She concluded that the best approach for data retention is to integrate your data into a story and quote, Aker goes on to say that quote, Our brains are not hardwired to understand logic or retain facts for very long. Our brains are wired to understand and retain stories. A story is a journey that moves the listener. And when the listener goes on that journey, they feel different. And the result is persuasion, and sometimes action. And quote, We are too often sleepwalking through our lives rushing from here to there meeting to meeting, where people we come in close contact with become mere extras in the screenplay of our day. But what if you could take some time and find a way to connect with someone over a shared joy or frustration or cool coffee drink or gaudy pink flamingo earrings? What if you could do this with the people you see and interact with every day, like your coworkers. Storytelling is also a great way to connect your business work or nonprofit with desired clients, customers or donors. It’s a way to quickly communicate who you are, what you’re about and how you work in a short period of time, so other potential clients can see if they are a good fit for them. It’s why brand storytelling is so effective. And one of my favorite topics, something I’ve devoted a large part of my career to unpacking and applying to anyone who wants to engage and connect with people to achieve a desired outcome. One of my favorite books of all time, is made to stick by Chip Heath and Dan Heath. The subtitle is why some ideas survive and others die. The author’s talk about quote, why urban legends, conspiracy theories and bogus public health scares circulate effortlessly. Meanwhile, people with important ideas, businessmen, educators, politicians, journalists, and others struggle to make their ideas stick and quote. If you want people to remember you or your business, cause or movement, and take action, the best way is to tell your story. Give us a hero to root for a conflict to overcome a way to save the day. With businesses you want to make the hero your customer. With nonprofits, you may want to make the hero your donor or your inspiring clients. As I have always said, stories unite us connect us. They can touch delight, provoke anger, move or propel us into action. We can open up our hearts and minds more with stories rather than cold facts. The best communication finds a way to weave facts and data into powerful relatable stories that get us to see something in a new way or compel us to act. Children learn through story and adults never stopped doing so as well. The next time you want to connect with someone be it pink flamingo lady in the coffee shop or your potential multimillion dollar customer. Find the story and share it and watch how engagement unfolds. Speaking of story, on September 8, I’ll kick off the next cohort of brand story breakthrough a virtual course sprint to help you craft the right brand story to attract more ideal customers, enhance lives and amplify your impact. Five weeks digestible videos and playbooks weekly live coaching with me for feedback and guidance. This is my way to help people at scale. Uncover the magic of their brand story and build all the tools for their messaging toolkit so they can attract their perfect customers stand out and most importantly grow their revenue and impact and the root of the entire course. You guessed it, empathy. If you’re a business owner, entrepreneur, coach, consultant, freelancer, PR or marketing professional, please check out the details of my new course brandstory breakthrough@bit.li slash BSB course. That’s boy Sam boy course. It’s a Bitly URL, so it’s bi t.li/bsb course. There you’ll find a free 12 minute masterclass video to enjoy about how to craft effective sales and marketing that engages people. And we go deep on how to do this in the course together would love to work together to help your story, touch hearts and change minds. Until next time, remember, cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Thanks for listening. And if you loved what you heard you know what to do. Please rate and review the podcast and share it with a friend or colleague. Until next time, take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Joanna L. Cea: Beloved Economies

A beloved economy. Doesn’t that just sound like an economic ecosystem you want to be part of? Well, it can be. There are organizations out there who have innovated HOW they do work and broken out of business as usual – to stellar results. And the great news is that everyone can contribute to practicing a beloved economy – reorienting how we work to share power and unlocking well-being, meaning, and connection.

Joanna Cea and Jess Rimington are co-authors of Beloved Economies: Transforming How We Work. They spent seven years researching the common traits of successful beloved economies across diverse teams and enterprises. Today Joanna shares what is a beloved economy and how to transform business as usual in a “loveless” economy. We discuss the role of “bad actors” in breakout innovation, and Joanna digs into two of the seven practices – seeking difference and trusting there is time – and explains why they work and how they can be applied.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

The way we work together matters – and it is a potent force for change, not just making the work environment a warm and fuzzy place.
We need leaders to step up and take ownership of doing something different than what has been done before. People want to be doing things in a different way but are often too afraid to speak up.
The rules are created by society. If we don’t like them, we can work together to change them.

“The economy is something we all make and remake every single day. Yes, there are big structural forces at play, but there’s also the accumulation of 1000 little decisions and actions that we each make every day.” — Joanna L. Cea

About Joanna Levitt Cea, Co-Author, Beloved Economies

Joanna Cea is dedicated to reimagining investment and funding practices to lift up the well-being of all. She has worked in community-driven efforts to stop destructive investments that threaten local livelihoods and ecosystems, and she has also helped launch solutions that enable communities to determine our own economic futures. Joanna led the human rights organization International Accountability Project for eight years, and served as founding director of the Buen Vivir Fund with Thousand Currents.

About Jess Rimington, Co-Author, Beloved Economies

Jess Rimington is a next economy strategist focused on the design and ethics of emerging post-capitalisms. Her practice and research is grounded in historical analysis, accessible truth-telling, and present-day experimentation. Jess’s work is informed by over a decade of experience leading two global organizations–as both an Executive Director and Managing Director–building cross-cultural staff teams with innovative work cultures rooted in power-sharing.

Connect with Joanna L. Cea and Jess Rimington:

Beloved Economies Website: https://www.belovedeconomies.org/

Book: Beloved Economies: https://www.belovedeconomies.org/book

MARIA’S COURSE

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

04:26

Thank you so much, Maria, for having me here.

Maria Ross 04:29

And I love this topic, obviously, which is why it’s such a great fit for the podcast because I truly believe we need to change the way that we work, especially given that we spend the bulk of our time at work. So let’s get right to it. And let’s talk about what you mean by the term beloved economies.

Joanna L. Cea 04:46

Hmm. It’s a very good question. And it’s one that doesn’t have a quick one liner answer. And I think it’s hard to explain what we mean without also contrasting it. With the dominant economy that we’re in today, which we ended up describing in the book as the loveless economy. And because this is the water we’re all swimming in and have been swimming in for so long, it’s hard to realize that anything else could be possible. But the way we kind of break things down in the book is looking at business as usual, which we operate in right now. And the way that it, the whole structure of our current manifestation of capitalism in the US is rooted in maximizing the accumulation of profit for a few in a way that actually ends up feeling pretty loveless for everyone involved. And the what we explore with beloved economies, and I’ll say in a moment who shared that framing with us, is the possibilities to still be successful and thriving. In metrics measured by business as usual, you know, when it comes to financial success and resilience, and exceptionally high quality products and high retention on your team, and also be achieving things that do make life feel more beloved, the teams and groups that we followed in the research, all we’re achieving kinds of success that people involved, not just the staff, but stakeholders, community, members, clients, whoever, many people involved were describing as bringing more purpose and sense of connection, and even joy. And the question that Jess and I really started with that began this journey many years ago was, if something else is possible, why are we so often trapped in very draining harmful modes of work, and what is possible when we innovate out of them. And so we ended up looking for examples of kind of bright spots of entities that were really departing from mainstream ways of work in their field in a significant way, and who are achieving kinds of success that felt very beloved to those involved, and that journey, and what we found and what we ended up kind of surfacing together with all those groups is what became the book that is now beloved economies.

Maria Ross 07:24

So when you were doing your research, did you find that people were using that term of Beloved, were they talking about love when they were describing where they worked? Or what they enjoyed? Or what motivated them? How did you come up with that term?

Joanna L. Cea 07:37

So we thank you for that question, Maria, because very importantly, as we lag in the book, we did not come up with that term. We were several years into the research, when we learned about the work of Dr. Virgil a Wood, who is an economic activist, and theologian and educator in his 90s, who has been working on these issues since his involvement in the civil rights movement in the 1960s. In the US, and Dr. Wood upon hearing about our work and finding said, it sounds to me, like what you’re describing is a beloved economy. And we were both just instantly haunted and compelled by that frame. Because, you know, it of course, links to Beloved Community, which Dr. Martin Luther King and so many others spoke to. And it also it’s such a provocative kind of dissonance, you know, like how could beloved and economy go together. And something that Dr. would emphasize, which was also something we were coming to in our work is a beloved economy is not like a top down prescription that is exactly, you know, this mechanism and model, it’s more something that emerges from the bottom up, and is deeply informed by the way we work together. And by new possibilities for care and shared ownership, and different models of ways that wealth and the benefits of working together can be distributed, that make the economy feel more like an ecosystem and less like something We’re surviving every day.

Maria Ross 09:20

I love that idea of making it an ecosystem and not just something to be survived because that is the tragedy to me is that we talked about this before we started recording this idea of this is where we’re spending the bulk of our time exactly. Shouldn’t it be a place that’s nourishing us and where we’re able to bring our full selves and where we’re able to thrive and collaborate and I often talk about, you know, the workplace being a playground for developing the skill of empathy because it’s an auto immunity for us to practice. When we’re in an environment where there is so much give and take. There is you know, there are so many diverse individuals with different needs and different goals and different desires. And so I love the idea of let us it would be so great to stop looking at work as this drudgery that we survive until we go home at the end of the day, or the end of the shift. And I know that’s a luxury for some people. But if we could adopt this idea that this, what I call the both and, and I talked about it in my book, like we can be compassionate and competitive, we can have cashflow, and compassionate and we can have ambition meshed with kindness. Why do you think and in your research? What did you find to be the reason why even with all the research, even with all the data, you know, I had a guest previously that talked about all the data points around how well purpose driven organizations do versus ones that don’t have a clear purpose? I feel like all the data and research is there. And yet, we’re still operating in this, you know, kind of what you talked about this loveless model? What do you think is the hesitancy? Is it just fear? Is it they don’t know what to do? Is it just this is the way it’s always been done?

Joanna L. Cea 11:08

Her? It’s a very important question. And it’s one we did look at a lot. And one of the chapters in the book explores that in particular one called they may try to stop you. Because we found there’s a lot of fear and resistance to reimagining how we work, both before you start. And then most baffling sometimes in the cases that we were following groups were starting to be incredibly successful, based on big departures, going more toward purpose and empathy and care, as you’re saying, and then, you know, someone would shut it down, or a few people would freak out. And even if it This success was in their best interest. And so really looking at where this comes from, you know, there’s no definitive answer. But depending on who we are in our identities, and know many of us in our lineage, or communities lineage, have histories of economic alternative efforts being very violently shut down. And we also are all operating in a system where, you know, we emphasize that the economy is something we all make, and remake and reify every single day. So yes, there’s big structural forces at play. But there’s also the accumulation of 1000 little decisions and actions that we each make every day. But that’s not a message we get often we tend to be a formally taught event that the economy is this, you know, monolithic thing and structure external to us that we need to operate in its rules, or we won’t survive, you know, and the most exciting kind of big picture takeaway of our research, because many of these groups we followed for as long as seven years through the course of a pandemic, everything that the last few years have held. And we can see and quantify that when teams successfully reimagine and overhaul how they work in ways that center shared power and purpose and well being, it’s actually a very important force for economic transformation, we saw a ripple effect happening, like for many of these groups, their success, then embodying that something else is indeed possible, ended up sparking shifts in norms in their sector, it ended up like reinforcing labor, organizing efforts, even changing what can be on the table for policy. And so the kind of overall call to action, if you will, from our research and book is, hey, the way we work together matters. It’s not just a warm fuzzy for SNR teams, it’s actually a really potent force for change. And yes, we all have different kinds of latitude and different constraints, you know, facing how easily we’re able to question the rules. But generally, we all have a lot more latitude than we think we do. And this the last thing I’ll say on that is, especially right now, well, it’s very fresh, having come out of the pandemic, you know, we all just witnessed, we can rewrite the rules of business as usual, overnight on mass. And so what if we really lean into that on our teams, but rewrite them in a way that enables us to step into being examples of economies that do feel more like love?

Maria Ross 14:27

Right, right. And that’s, you know, so much loss, it’s hard to talk about the silver lining the pandemic, but it’s amazing what we’re all the things we say we can’t do until we’re forced to do them. And wouldn’t it be great if we, as humans can learn our lessons time after time after time and say, maybe if we can be proactive about this transformation? If we didn’t have to have some horrible catalyst that made us transform that forced us to budge? It would be so great and I feel like we come out of crises And we say that that’s how we’re going to operate. And then we get complacent again, as human beings, right. And I know that’s just, that’s the way our brains work, our brains don’t like change, and just the way it is of the human condition, but I know the kinds of changes you’re talking about, can lead to great transformation. When you talk about the approach you take, and you talk about the most seven practices in the book, in order to break out of business as usual, that can be really scary to someone who is like, yeah, I want to do it. But oh, my gosh, where do I start? And what if I’m the only person, you know, I’m just one person within this giant organization or giant company. So you know, like, I talk a lot about spheres of influence, and that you can become a model, you can almost create a micro culture within your team or your sphere of influence. What do you say in terms of someone listening to this going, I want to create a culture like that and an environment like that. But how do I even start? Is there a way you can give us a little bit of a summation, or maybe one or two of the principles because we want folks to pick up the book? But where are some starting points and access points for people within those seven practices?

Joanna L. Cea 16:12

Sure. Great question. And I will share that No. And I’ll also say we because we get this question. So often, we included a mini kind of bonus chapter at the end of the book called Getting Started, because that’s the hardest thing is getting started. And you mentioned the seven practices that we found in our research. And we did not expect to find those we weren’t going out trying to find you know, a list of best practices or a code or something. We were just exploring what happens when groups, you know, really boldly breakout a business as usual and are successful what’s happening there. But over time, we ended up realizing that even though the group’s in our we called it our CO learning community, so the cases we followed became part of the active participatory research group, everyone was doing very different things in their day to day work, we have everything from health care providers in the cardiology department, to a youth led social movement organization, to a tech startup, to educational groups to disaster recovery planning. I mean, it’s all over the map. So the language everyone’s talking about of their day to day activities is very different. But we started to realize there was a deeper underlying pattern in how they were working. That was very similar. And we were actually able to do a first in person gathering of folks in the color and community way back in 2016, and then keep the conversation going. And that’s how we together kind of did a sense making process to surface what are these deeper patterns, underlying list access of these groups, and you know, how they’re working. So we like to emphasize, you know, this isn’t a kind of abstract framework that Jess and I just cooked up, it’s actually kind of a backward sensemaking thing collectively surfaced by all these interesting organizations. And finding those seven practices and how strongly all these groups felt about them. That’s what compelled us to write the book. Because it felt like wow, there actually is a framework for how we all can get started and work together and have a greater chance of coming to the kinds of outcomes and ways of work that these groups are that feel really repetitive and replenishing in the context of our current economy. So I’ll just list the practices here. And then I’ll talk about one or two, but in no particular order, they are shared decision making power, prioritize relationships, reckon with history, seek difference, source from multiple ways of knowing, prototype early and often. And trust there is time. And maybe for your question of getting started, I’ll pick two I’ll do seek difference and trust there’s time. So I think one we often kind of don’t underestimate the power of seeking difference and seeking difference in the way that we call the groups in our cool learning community breakout actors that these folks do. So this isn’t just you know, check the box dei work is very important. And we also know some people do it in a problematically check the box kind of way, but we really saw breakout actors be courageous and who they’re bringing to the table together and in the way they’re making that table feel and operate so that everyone really can bring their brilliance and insights and opinions to the table. Whether those are factory managers and factory floor workers or suppose it beneficiaries of a disaster recovery process being brought in as designers are often when we feel stuck like well, I don’t know where the answer is the simple act of bringing together a group that broadly reflects the kinds of lived experience and roles and people who are impacted by our work or the question at hand. That, in of itself unlocks all kinds of wisdom.

Maria Ross 20:16

And it’s also getting a different perspective on the problem. If I’m in a room with people that just see things the way I do, there’s so much I missed, there’s so many other facets of the challenge, or the idea that because of my own experience, or our own experience, we’re missing out on we’re missing out on that innovation and creativity. And, you know, I’ve interviewed several people on the on the show that have talked about this idea of, you know, smart leaders, you know, hire people that say no to them, smart leaders hire people that say, Well, why don’t we do it this way, or, you know, they ban the words like we’ve always done it this way, their vocabulary, because they know that they come up with better solutions. And it might take a little longer to get there. But they waste less time, you know, on the long run. So I love that that’s actually a trait within these amazing breakout teams. And I love the term breakout actors, as a way to identify people who might have often been told in their work environment, they’re too much. They’re a squeaky wheel, right? Not that I’ve ever heard that. But you know, it’s a nice framing of like, the people that are going to challenge you and challenge the decisions. It’s actually good to tight those things with fire to test ideas to test processes. And because in the end, you come up with a better forged product, you come up with a better forged process. So I love that that’s actually a key. I like in what you’re saying to finding what like the common recipe was across all these teams, like what was the what were the you know, it was like, a dash of paprika. Everybody had it? You know what I mean? And so I love that that is actually one that very clearly came through in your research was this idea of like, once again, proving differences good if we embrace it in the right way. And that’s really where I see empathy playing a role is empathy is the fuel that helps difference work. Otherwise, you’re just a bunch of people disagreeing with each other and, and not thinking your point of view is valid over mine, or what have you. Empathy makes it all run. So sorry to interrupt you, I was just so excited by that being one little is what are your main practices? So? So what does that look like in action, like that particular practice? And then I do want to talk about the trust there as time because I think that’s an important one. But we’re what are some ways, you know, someone’s listening, they are a leader, they’re in a company. And they know, you know, from like, you were saying they need to work on D IB initiatives. But what are some ways they can start to seek difference within the teams they have now and start to put foundations for the future in place to start creating that beloved, economy within their organization?

Joanna L. Cea 23:00

You know, no formula for this. But one of the kind of simple practices we saw across breakout actors was, rather than just having one person who’s in charge of ensuring the EI or you know, that it’s really about whatever the key question or issue is at hand, asking multiple people who else needs to be here, who isn’t here right now? Who is impacted by this question, we’re asking by this work that we’re doing. And in kind of a meta way, you seek difference even in seeking difference, right? Like you ask a variety of people in a variety of positions in the organization, what kind of lived experience, job experience, training, whatever, you know, they think needs to be there. And sometimes that in itself, really opens up some new ideas. And then I think just that a number of the groups too, we saw kind of take these steps in widening circles. So you’d, you know, bring an initial group together and then think, collectively, both who else needs to be there? And also, how do we need to be inviting people in during this process so that it is really set up for each person to feel safe and be able to give their full meaningful contribution? Because I’m sure we’ve all seen that mistake done a lot of times to where good effort at recruitment, but not enough effort at process for it to be functional. But then hearing that I know can kind of feel paralyzing like, Oh, what if I do it wrong? What and again, it’s like if we kind of share that and we bring together even if it’s a small group, but with diverse perspectives to help think through that together. We’ve seen that be an effective baseline. So I love this

Maria Ross 24:47

concept of the other principle about trust. There is time because I mean, time is such an enemy of time crunch is such an enemy of innovation of creativity of rethinking the way that we do Do things, because we’re constantly feeling and I think part of it is a narrative, we tell ourselves that we’re short on time. And it was good talk to us a little bit about that principle and how it manifested in the research and in the CO learning groups.

Joanna L. Cea 25:13

Sure. This was actually the last practice that came into view, if you will. And then once we saw it, it was like, oh, yeah, yeah.

Maria Ross 25:23

For everyone, we need to that needs to be a seventh one. Yeah,

Joanna L. Cea 25:26

yes. And it’s the most challenging. I mean, for me, for all, it’s so wrong for exactly the reasons you said. And, you know, we open the that chapter in the book about that practice, saying, you know, this sounds so hard in the context in which so many of us literally feel starved for enough time, I mean, people working multiple jobs, deadlines, having very real consequences, if you miss them, so it’s, this principle isn’t about a idealized like, oh, just live a more spacious life, you know, take time, it’s more about kind of alluding to what you said earlier, Maria, like the go slow to go fast, it can feel hard to even carve out time for a conversation about how we might want to change a process or make it work better for effectively seeking difference or whatever. But when you create that time, and focus on kind of the fundamentals of how we work together in a way that are very transaction Do do do achieve achieved, achieved culture doesn’t usually let us do the results that come out, make it very worthwhile. So it’s this kind of paradox of you let go of a quick means to an end, we have operating to actually then get to an even more meaningful end. And what a lot of breakout actors talk about with this practice. It’s not just about, you know, pushing back to create time for this thinking about how we work for, you know, the time it takes to define what each of these practices will mean for us, and how we are going to activate them in our groups. But it’s also about when you do that, and attune to these things, people tend to kind of drop into a different quality of presence. So it’s both about that, you know, yes, the number of minutes we set aside, but it’s also kind of creating space for profound things that enable us to attune in a different way and even tap into different parts of our insight and innovation. And, yeah, that deeply fuel our work and help kind of reinforce people realizing Wait, it is possible, and in fact, imperative to create time together like this.

Maria Ross 27:44

Yeah, and I think that’s such an important aspect. When we talk about social and emotional intelligence, when we talk about building meaningful relationships at work. When we talk about forming friendships at work, we often see those things as distracting from the work that needs to be done, when those are the very things that enable the work to be done. And no matter how many times we try to tell people, it just seems like you said in the midst of deadlines in the midst of like, order clothes in the midst of Oh, our sales numbers are flagging, what are we going to do to you know, bandaid things, right now, we don’t have time for team meetings, we don’t have time for you know, mentoring, we don’t have time for all these things. But those are the very things that enable you to get through the tough times. And especially if you can be proactive to build those foundations first. And I love what you’re saying, because it’s almost like setting the tone as a leader, have that mindset of like, No, we have enough time. This was the meeting we were going to have but clearly this has come up. We’re going to address this now. And you know, we’re going to talk about different things that we might be, you know, especially right now with like, for example, so many companies doing layoffs, it’s like what is important to shore up and keep those relationships and that community intact, so that it can continue to function. And what I’m seeing is the smart leaders are making time for that in the midst of chaos, finding a way to make time for that. And I know that, you know from my own personal experience, maybe you can relate to this is as someone who’s very type A and very just like go go go. I did always appreciate those people in the meeting who sort of didn’t say anything for a while. And then would speak in a very, you know, even just speak in a very measured way. Like they would just take the temperature of the whole room down so that we can actually take a breath and think clearly. So I was really appreciated them and in the end, right? You’re like, Oh, someone like, you know, gave us the proverbial slap in the face to calm down. Right, actually, you know, someone I had on the show in the past talked about the fact that we actually need to spend more time asking the right Question than trying to come up with the solution. We should actually be spending the time on that and going, Is this really the problem we’re trying to solve? Is this really the issue in front of us? Or is it something else? And you can’t do that when you don’t think you have enough time?

Joanna L. Cea 30:15

Exactly. Yeah. And it’s interesting, because, you know, as we, in the process of writing the book, and each practice has its own chapter, there’s a little vignette in front of it. But it’s very hard to separate the practices from one another, because they all are, you know, very intertwined. And like you’re saying, you know, that operating in that kind of grounded way is very linked to also prioritizing relationship and tapping into other ways of knowing and, but what you’re sharing is making me think of one of the people in our cool learning community. Antoinette de Carroll is the founder of creative reaction Lab, which is a group that has really shaken things up in the design world, in internet helped pioneer at field of design called equity center and community design. And the way they work brings in very diverse stakeholders, if you will, as fellow designers and really gets to asking the right questions, and does processes differently so that you hear those really innovative ideas. And we ultimately decided to feature creative reaction lab in the vignette before trust, there is time. They had so many great stories have like their first session with any clients. It’s like, okay, we’re going to spend, you know, X number of hours today talking about power dynamics, and doing some deep look, history and power dynamics and stuff in our field and our organization. And they almost invariably get an initial big pushback and discomfort of like, wait a minute, I stepped away from my to do list to come do this thing. And you’re telling me we’re not going to get from point A to point Z by the end of the today. And we’re asking these big nebulous questions and, and then by the end of the day, people, or even the end of the session, people are incredibly present. No one’s looking at the clock. They’ve had breakthrough conversations. They saw things they never did before. The questions around history have sparked empathy that they didn’t have before for one another. And they’re like, this is incredible. We can’t wait and incident jianxin She and her team are like, do you remember you didn’t want us to do them so

Maria Ross 32:29

convenient? And not for nothing, but we told you so? No, I love that

32:36

hard to feel like we have permission to do

Maria Ross 32:38

that. Yes. And then you know, it’s a perpetuating cycle. Because in a culture where we think we’re going to be punished for trying to create that flow and create that time, then we don’t do it. And really, it’s what everyone is craving. But no one wants to speak up unless you get a really bold, brave leader that says we’re going to do this differently. Yeah, it gives everyone else permission to say Thank God, we’re gonna do it differently. Because this was not working. Yes. And so it’s almost like we’re in, you know, we’re in dysfunctional relationships. So often in work environments where I think individually, people know the way they want to work. But they’re stuck in this groupthink and this environment where they’re not psychologically safe to say, I want to try to do something differently. And it’s just sad, because everyone, there’s so many people that have the same idea of what they want. And then they go into this office environment together and they’re miserable together. It just erase me sad.

Joanna L. Cea 33:38

No, and we, along that research with the book, so many people, we ask the question like, okay, the phrase, beloved economy, you don’t know anything about what it means or where it came from. But what does it mean to you? Like, what would it feel like if you woke up one morning and stepped out your front door into oblivion economy? The things that people want and dream about are so similar? Yeah. It’s so and then it’s that, like, we are all wanting something very different. So why are we all document what we’re stuck in right now. And our hope is that this book can help us wake up to the power we have, especially with our teams and groups, to choose to imagine and build outside of it. You have to support one another to be living examples that other ways are indeed possible.

Maria Ross 34:29

I love that. I think we’ll just leave it there. Because this is such an important conversation. And I hope listeners will check out the book, beloved economies transforming how we work. Thank you so much, Joanna, for your time and your insights today and for the book that you and Jess have written because I think it’s important that we all embrace. We talk so much about innovating products and services. We don’t talk enough about innovating the way we work. Yes, you know what I mean? And so that’s, you know, what I hope to highlight In this podcast, I’ve highlighted a few other guests. One in particular is coming to mind. Rebecca Freese, who runs a culture of workplace innovation and culture firm called Flynn consulting. And she wrote a book called The good culture. And in the subtitle, it’s something about like creating a workplace that doesn’t suck isn’t the metal. That’s really where we’re not innovating there. We might be innovating with apps and technology, and, you know, ride sharing services and all this kind of stuff. But the organizational structure or the culture structure is still so outdated, and in desperate need of being revamped

Joanna L. Cea 35:38

the culture structure and the ownership and decision making and return structure and that we call that out too.

Maria Ross 35:45

Yep, absolutely. And the beautiful part of this, as I often talk about with rules of leadership, and the way we engage with each other is those are all rules we created, not laws of physics, and so we can change them at Linden if we don’t like them. So let’s do that. So let’s start with your book, beloved economies. Joanna, thank you so much. All your links already have the opportunity to be here. Yes. And all the links will be in the show notes. But for anyone on the go right now. Where’s the best place they can learn more about you and justice work?

Joanna L. Cea 36:16

Sure. You can learn more about us the book and the whole campaign around it at beloved economies.org.

Maria Ross 36:22

Wonderful, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Maria. Take care. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please share it with a friend or colleague. And don’t forget to rate and review if you have an opportunity. Until next time and our next insightful guest. Please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Lindsay LaShell: A Marketing Activist Blends Purpose & Profit

Want to save the world – & build a healthy profitable business? You can. My guest today, Lindsay LaShell, and I talked about everything purpose & profit! What is a marketing activist, how impact organizations can better leverage marketing to achieve goals, where folks go wrong when leveraging social media, & the marketing lies that detract all of us, for-profit & nonprofit – from achieving our goals. Lindsay explains her buyer’s journey framework & how it operationalizes empathy into your business model & marketing. We talk about B Corps & how any business that wants to make a difference can become one – she has stellar advice for anyone longing to marry purpose & profit or paycheck. You will leave today’s conversation motivated to do more good with your work, no matter how large your organization is.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Marketing is not about lying to people, it is about telling your story truthfully to do good in the world. Marketing is a communication tool to serve & lift.
Every sale you make is human-to-human. B2B or C2C don’t matter because everyone is human with their own thoughts, fears, wants, stresses, & human needs.
Have a business purpose for everything you do in marketing. You do not need to do everything that everyone else does. You do not need to do something, especially on social media, just because you feel like you “should” do it.

“Mediocre marketing costs a lot of money because you don’t know who you’re talking to, & you don’t know what you’re offering. We don’t have time & money to waste. We need our s*#t to be more efficient, we need better. That’s where empathy focuses your range.”

— Lindsay LaShell

MARIA’S COURSE

Learn more about Maria’s new Brand Story Breakthrough course, starting September 8. Spots are limited so grab yours before it’s gone to start attracting more of your ideal customers & boosting revenue & growth: https://bit.ly/BSBcourse

Resources Mentioned:

Heather Hiscox, The Empathy Edge: The Surprising Empathy Gap in Social Impact That Hinders ChangeElisa Camahort Page, The Empathy Edge: The Art of Empathy in Politics, Activism & Media BSIan Bentley, The Empathy Edge: Conscious Consumerism for the WinGay Hendricks, The Genius ZoneSPECIAL OFFER: Want to ditch the social media channels that don’t serve you without sacrificing opportunities? Use coupon code “EMPATHY” to get FREE access to Lndsay’s Social Media Solution course in Kajabi. Lindsay’s course: The Power of Delegation for Entrepreneurs: https://courses.open-lines.co/offers/78wKLz3E/checkoutAbout Lindsay LaShell, Marketing Activist & Founder, Open Lines Marketing:

Lindsay Dayton LaShell is a Marketing Activist & the creator of the Open Lines Marketing Framework. Her work is to advance justice, equity, & sustainability through access to excellent marketing strategies for women, indigenous, queer, or POC founders, B Corps, & nonprofits. Through workshops, speaking gigs, & consulting, she’s helped thousands of organizations reevaluate & realign their marketing strategies to be more empathetic, efficient, & effective. To see what she’s up to, follow her on LinkedIn or subscribe to her newsletter at open-lines.co.

Connect with Lindsay LaShell:

Open Lines Marketing: https://www.open-lines.co/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsaylashell/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/Open_Lines

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/openlinesmarketing/

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Want to save the world and build a healthy, profitable business? You can you can have impact No matter your work. My guest today, Lindsey le shell founder of open lines marketing, talks about her evolution into becoming a marketing activist and devoting her marketing skills to help women queer or bipoc entrepreneurs, nonprofits, B corpse and other purpose driven organizations increase their opportunity through marketing strategy. We talked about everything purpose and profit. So you’re in for a treat. What a marketing activist is how impact organizations can better leverage marketing to achieve their goals, where folks go wrong when it comes to leveraging social media, and the marketing lies that detract all of us for profit and nonprofit from achieving our goals. Lindsay explains her buyers journey framework, and how it operationalizes empathy into your business model and marketing. We talk about B corpse and how any business that wants to make a difference can become one, and she has stellar advice for anyone longing to marry their purpose, profit or paycheck. You’ll leave today’s conversation inspired and activated to do more good with your work. No matter how large your organization or your skill set. Take a listen. A big hello to you, Lindsay. Today joining us on the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so glad we’re reconnecting and having this conversation. Thanks, Ray. I’m so excited to be here. So you and I met years ago at a wonderful Women’s Conference in Northern California, I believe it was called world changer women, women, world changing women and you are a world changing woman. And I’m so glad we got the chance to meet there and stay in touch. Talk to us a little bit about your work and specifically what marketing activism is.

Lindsay Lashell 03:12

Yeah, do you know it was like such a glorious day was the day that I realized that my experience and my skills could be aligned with the purposeful path that I was looking for. It was just it was just magical, because I had been. I mean, I’ll be honest, I say this all the time. Like I don’t actually care about marketing at all. Like that is not my thing. My thing is helping people get what they need from their organizations. And marketing happens to be the skill set that I’ve got. So the activism to me is that I focus on making businesses stronger for women, bipoc Queer entrepreneurs, for nonprofits and be corpse and purpose driven organizations. It’s like, if by my by my values, if your success makes the world a better place, then I want to help you. That’s my activism. So you know, if you are an I have a handful of clients that are straight white men, but they either run nonprofits or social enterprises or something else, right. On the other side, if you’re a black woman, and one of the things I say all the time is like as long as you’re not selling guns or drilling for oil, I don’t care how you make yourself Rich and I want to help. And so that’s how I That’s how my activism,

Maria Ross 04:37

I love it. Well, I’ve always said throughout my whole career in marketing and branding, that if we could only use marketing for good rather than evil, how world changing that would be. Absolutely. You know, you and I are so aligned in that we look at marketing, not as this schlocky, you know, I always tell people marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about elevating the truth of your story. So the Need what you’ve got can find you. And you can actually create a sustainable business where you can do more good in the world. Yes. And so again, those are the those are the clients, I think both of us have that kinship of those are the clients were drawn to. And I will say, even when I work with my high tech clients, if they have a deeper mission and a deeper purpose, to leverage their technology to make the world better, I want to work with them. Right? Absolutely. So I love this so much. And I love that you, you know, I don’t know if you coined the term, but it’s the first place I ever heard it was being a marketing activist, because I think it really gets to that idea of leveraging marketing as a communication tool. Yeah.

Lindsay Lashell 05:41

Yeah, it is. I mean, it’s super intentional. I made it up as far as I know, I don’t I have never met another marketing teams. But for me, yeah. But for me, it really is, you know, it’s funny, because I still do have clients, especially when I work with like an accelerator, where the businesses, the entrepreneurs I’m working with, didn’t necessarily opt to work with me, right, because I’m like writing them or a curriculum or whatever. Like, I definitely have to do a little bit of a karmic balancing soul cleansing exercise, first to get everybody on board with the idea that marketing in and of itself is not bad. That that is that you know, anything can be used for good or bad, exactly getting and if your business is good. And your marketing deserves to be good, and you shouldn’t get too caught up in the garbage that we’ve all experienced, and the exploitation and you know, ways

Maria Ross 06:32

I mean, this is why this is why people are sick of advertising and marketing is because there’s so much bad stuff out there and right, because it’s they’re spraying the wall, hoping to hit the right people. And I do love like you I love working with nonprofits and social impact organizations to Leverage Marketing to amplify their message, because they often they have such good intentions, but they don’t have that skill set all the time. So, so let’s talk a little bit about the framework you use, because your company open lines, has a unique method for operationalizing empathy in marketing. And I know again, you and I are very aligned on the fact that marketing begins with empathy for your, for your customer, for your prospect for the person you’re trying to serve, right? Not the person you’re trying to get money from. So talk about how the framework helps your clients operationalize empathy.

Lindsay Lashell 07:27

Yeah, it’s the man, when I figured out this thing, I got so excited. Like, in so many different marketing jobs I had had, the Mo was like, Yeah, you do some persona work fine, then you put together the campaign, and you like, take the client’s money, and you’re like, Oh, I hope the phone rings have a good time. And when I started my own marketing agency, that was just not good enough for me, like I needed to know that the work we were doing was really well informed, and that it was gonna be held accountable for being effective. Like, those were the two things I was like, if we can’t get the results, we promise you should take your money somewhere else, right? Like, I don’t want it. And so. So that was where the framework started, where I started to develop this framework. And I mean, the basically, the premise of it is, if we look at the buyers journey, I break it down into five distinct phases, right? Part one is what we call the problem stage. And that’s like pre action, right? There’s like something in the back of my head says, I’m going to need a solution for some problem someday, but I’m not taking action on it yet. Right? Then you have like a triggering event that puts you into the research stage, which is when you are really starting to gather all your options, right? The way I talk about research stages, like you are walking through the store, picking up things off the rack that you are then going to try on, right? If you and the trying them on, that’s the planning stage, that’s when you’re like going through each thing and saying like, what’s at stake? Is this appropriate? Can I afford it? Do I like the way it fits? Like whatever, right? Those are really the questions in the planning stage. And then you get to a decision which gets you to solution, right? And I am as a marketer, anybody who says that is not marketing, communications is missing opportunities, right? Like how you talk to your clients and your customers is a marketing opportunity and how you leverage them in Phase Five, which is the recommendation stage can be everything for how effective your message is, for how well your your product is received, right, whatever it is. And so so the thing that’s amazing about this is when you look at the really like the user experience through those steps, it turns out that there’s like specific marketing channels that correlate with those experiences. So nobody, right it’s like the solution stage is almost never on Your social media. So whatever people care about at the solution stage doesn’t have to show up in your social media at all. And so now we can start to get what questions? Are they asking when they’re on your social media? And just focus on answering those, you don’t have to answer every question everywhere, know where they are when they are like, so it’s an emotional journey. But then it’s also like a digital or physical journey. And so once you, once you map those two things together, it tells you pretty clearly what you need to say, and where you need to say it. And that simplifies things quite a lot.

Maria Ross 10:31

And it’s different for every company, because I know when I worked in enterprise sales, that, you know, we would always try to talk to the sales teams about that, like you can’t propose on the first date. Right, you’re not going to ask for the sale at that first meeting. Now there’s, there’s things you have to do. And also you’re not going to necessarily offer a demo, or reveal references, until they get to a certain phase of the journey, where that’s applicable. So there’s even like marketing assets that go within each phase of the journey. And it’s sort of like, you know, are you are you introducing them to mom and dad on the first date? Yeah, exactly. They will run it’s too much, right? In a b2b context,

Lindsay Lashell 11:12

it’s even more interesting, because lots of times the conversion point is telling your boss about the opportunity. Yes,

Maria Ross 11:20

it’s not even you, you’re just the researcher.

Lindsay Lashell 11:23

Right. And so you understand that journey when you like, dig in, and really empathize with that person, what makes them tick in their job, like, I am that person. I know. It’s so cheesy, and I don’t care, but like b2b, b2c, individual humans,

Maria Ross 11:39

yeah. And we’re selling to humans

Lindsay Lashell 11:42

are patient. And so we don’t care. Like when my clients want to tell me that their customers are the name of a company or a job title or something like that, like we have a lot of work to do. It is a human person with their own fears, and wants, and hobbies, and stresses, and we got to meet them there. And so that’s like that journey map is what I call it is like going through and in their own words, describing their experience of like where you’re at at each. Absolutely. I

Maria Ross 12:12

love that you said that, because that’s actually in a workshop I’ve been offering around how to create an empathetic brand, is learning how to ask an echo back. Because we have the way we fall in love with describing our product or service. And it might there might be a place for that. Because we might be creating a new category, we need to introduce new language. But are you talking to your customers and finding out how they describe what you do to their peers? Yeah, that’s the language we should be using. So that’s when you get that marketing and advertising where people read it and go, Oh, my gosh, they’re inside my head. Yes, that’s right. I love it. Okay, so how, you know, given all of that, talk to, you know, help us make that business case of how does leveraging empathy in that process, make your marketing more efficient?

Lindsay Lashell 13:01

Do you know what it’s exactly what you said about people who are like spreading the walls trying to collect it? Right? Really, mediocre marketing costs a lot of money, because you’re like, you don’t know who you’re talking to, and you don’t know what you’re offering. And so you got to iterate on 1000 1000 different offers and taglines and like all this kind of stuff. And it’s just wasteful. It’s easy when you have a big budget to like, get results, like that’s 100% of the time, if you have enough money, you can get your customers and you can have a completely garbage product, right? Like, brilliant examples of that in the world. Unfortunately, I’m sorry to say yeah, but let’s be honest about it, like the people that I’m trying to help. We don’t have time and money to waste. That’s opposite of what’s happening. We need our shit to be more efficient, we need better. And so that’s where that empathy focuses your range. And it’s, you know, and it’s so funny, because it’s an experience that so many of my clients have, where they’re like, Well, I have this persona, and I have this persona. And I have this persona, and I start to talk about, like, what is your offer for them? Why are they accepting it? And it’s like, well, they would accept it, except for there’s this one objection, or it’s not a good fit because of this. And it’s like, not your people, not your people. And so we just like start to narrow it down and narrow it down until we have such a clear picture. And this is the thing that I do that really ends up happening a lot too is that like, I can help my clients confidently, no, who is not their client, who is not their customer who they don’t even have to try to sell to, I can give them permission to be like you’re not for them. Just don’t even try don’t worry about it. It’s a waste of time and money, like so. And so that’s really the that’s really where it gets efficient because when you’re only talking to the right people, right? Use language that really resonates really deeply. You can use channels and really clever ways and when you’re doing winging it right? Then it cuts out all the noise. You just don’t have to do all kinds of other garbage.

Maria Ross 15:06

Well, speaking of figuring out which channels to use, I know you have very strong opinions about social media. And they are very aligned with my opinions. So I would like you to talk a little bit about the, the myth we’ve all bought into. Because we forget there was a world of commerce before social media existed. And companies were built and made money and served customers. Talk to us about the mistakes you see, especially like you’re saying, These people where the resources are precious, like whether it’s a woman entrepreneur, or small business or a nonprofit, every dollar every hour counts. That’s right. So where are they you know, where are they going wrong with trying to leverage social media to amplify their message?

Lindsay Lashell 15:51

Yeah, do you know? So my, there’s a couple of different ways that this plays out, right? For me, there’s like Rule number one is, why are you doing this thing? Like what is the specific action that you are trying to generate? What is the specific business case for why this has to happen? And that could be social media, it could be a newsletter, whatever. But what is this supposed to accomplish? And is it doing that? Yeah, it’s not doing that stop, like, or change tack or something, right? We again, we don’t have time to waste. And so that so it’s like, let’s be honest about the fact that I like Sorry, but like I this message, often, I have to direct specifically to a nonprofit Ed, because there’s a lot of shoulds. There’s a lot of shoulds. I feel like we have to so we should we’re going to the board, no

Maria Ross 16:49

one else is doing it.

Lindsay Lashell 16:50

All this Yeah, wise, those are all lies. That’s all fiction, we don’t have to believe it. And so so let’s take a step back and really think very deeply about where are our people interested in hearing from us? And what do what are they interested in specifically, what is the offer that we are making to them, that they care about? And if those things are not connecting, be honest about it, and GTFO. And so, social media especially, is, I think it’s really difficult because it used to be good. It used to be a cost effective way to expand your audience. Because you had your people and your people would engage with your stuff, your people would see your stuff, and they would engage with your stuff. And then there are people would see your stuff, and they would engage with it. And you could very organically and efficiently grow your audience? Well, guess what? Step one in that chain is broken. Now Facebook has like a five in 10,000 Organic view rate, right? Twitter is half of that, and Instagram is even less. So it’s like, how many? How many followers do you have to have in order to get even 100 people to see your stuff? And of the 100? who see it? How compelling does it have to be to get them to engage with it? Like it’s just, it’s a losing battle, right? Because Facebook and Google specifically, like, These guys make money 500 bucks a time at from small businesses all over the world. And they just do that. So it’s like to you or me, or like the pizza guy around the corner, like 500 bucks a month feels like an amount that I should be spending on my advertising and that it’s a reasonable you know what I mean? Like it’s a reasonable, because it’s expensive, so you don’t think that much about it. And so that’s what they’re doing. They’re basically saying, you can’t have this for free anymore, because we’d rather have your 500 bucks a month. And if people are doing that, that, you know, they now can do whatever they want. Right? So yeah, it just to me, we just need to stop shitting on ourselves, we just need to like, go back and say for real? What’s it for? And is it? Is this a reasonable like investment? Is it a good use of our time to try to get that,

Maria Ross 19:10

and I always try to think about it too, in terms of, you know, if you are honest with yourself, and you’re using social media to just raise awareness and have a presence and be part of the conversation, you’re cool, but know that and invest accordingly. And, you know, like as someone who is going to be investing in some social media advertising campaigns, my goal is to get those people on my email list. And then I don’t have to rely on social media anymore, then they’re actually part of my community. And I’m not renting the space, I’m owning the space, right for as long as I am lucky enough to have them as I continue to offer value. That’s right, but so it’s just having your eyes open. When you make those investments. And you have a class for folks, the social media solution how to walk away from channels you don’t like without sacrificing opportunity, and I think that’s talking about asking and echoing back, that’s always what I hear is like, well, I don’t want to sacrifice the opportunity, I don’t want FOMO I don’t want to miss out,

Lindsay Lashell 20:10

you know, like, I have to be there. I feel like I have to be there. And the worst part of it is is like, especially as a like solo or small business, right, you’ve got limited resources. So your options are invest those resources in a channel, that is not going to pay you back. Yeah. Don’t invest in that channel, and then feel like crap about it. Right? Because either because you’re not showing up as the genius that you are, or because because it’s, you know, like, for, it’s just not representing you? Well, because you as, especially for a woman business owner, like feel like you should, and you’re not, you put this extra pressure. And so it’s like it’s lose lose. So for me, once I realized, sort of the way that social media can be, frankly, more of a landing page than a Yes, way billboard. Right. Yeah. And that I mean, spoiler alert, that’s what the course is about, right? It’s like, like, how to think through the process of like, what is your Instagram need to be? If all it’s doing is validating people who are coming, they’re looking for you. If you go to open, if you go to open lines, marketing, Instagram, literally the most recent posts says Find us on LinkedIn.

Maria Ross 21:29

Yeah, that’s that’s your, that’s your place. That’s where you engage. And I want to add to because in case folks don’t listen all the way through you are, we are going to, in the show notes, have a special coupon code for listeners who want to check out that course of yours for free. So this isn’t about trying to sell people on this, you are really just trying to get this message out there to help entrepreneurs, small businesses, social impact organizations, nonprofits, stop wasting their precious resources and be more successful. So we will have that coupon code in the show notes for folks that are interested in checking out that short and juicy class that you are offering. So I want to just ask, you know, with your own experience, as a woman entrepreneur, I believe you had a B Corp before or other agency a B Corp as well. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, that landscape of being a woman entrepreneur and trying to have social impact as a B Corp? And, you know, trying to make money while serving your purpose? What are some of the lessons learned that you have to share with people about that?

Lindsay Lashell 22:39

Yeah, it’s got, you know, I, I guess the the first and like, overarching, like idea that I would want to get across is just that, like, you absolutely do not have to choose between purpose and profit, like, Absolutely do not. The B Corp movement is, it’s really special to me, I have a great community of other women entrepreneurs there. And, you know, when we got so I started my eight, my marketing agency, it was the first business I started in this in this industry. And that was in 2015. And we got our first B Corp certification in late 2019 2018 2018. And it was such a great exercise, because it was really just like, ticking boxes of like, proving that we are who we say we are, right, we were already I was already in a place where I was like, we want to work with purpose driven businesses, we want to work with nonprofits and and that’s all you know, that’s all great. And then when I transitioned from the from the agency into more of a teaching coaching, advising role as I am with the framework, then the it just got even easier, because the lot the downstream impact, right? It’s just it’s a simpler, it’s a simpler model. And the way that the community and the assessments work is it’s very, it adjusts to your business model. Everybody’s evaluated based on whether or not they have a supply chain, whether or not they have physical space, like all these sorts of things. But the bottom line is that, you know, B Corp is working really hard to make sure that it’s available to everybody that this was like this is not an exclusive, it’s not elite it is like should be thinking about the, you know, carbon footprints of our businesses, right, you know, like, whatever that is. And so we should be forced to think through the impact of our work on our local community and on our global community and all the things so I think, yeah, I mean, like I said, like, the very first thing I said was like, the day that I realized that like, the things I wanted to do at work and the things that were impactful could be the same thing was just amazing. And so I Think. And so that’s the thing is like, even if you’re just, you know, selling office supplies, sell renewables and sell them to purpose driven businesses. And now you’re you know what I mean? Like, there’s nothing hard about taking a regular business model and making a purpose driven business business model. And I think this is one of the things that I’m really excited for him the next steps of this evolution is watching the nonprofit as like nonprofits are starting to be more revenue minded. And my sincerest hope is that that leads them towards more efficient business practices, and, frankly, more ethical business practices. Because I think that’s the philanthropy has a lot of legacy stuff that they need to outgrow right, to evolve out of, and I think the B Corp movement is a good a good model for how to do that.

Maria Ross 25:55

And we probably should have said this earlier in case there is anyone unfamiliar with the B Corp classification. Can you just give us a quick? Yeah, Intro to that?

Lindsay Lashell 26:04

Yeah, I think the talking line is like B corpse meet the highest standards of sustainability, inclusion and equity. Something else, it’s a series of business assessments that you take, and you get points there, it’s shift. There’s some movement there and exactly how it’s going to be evaluated. But basically, you know, you got to look out for your environmental community impact. And, you know, one of the things I love this, like, one of the requirements is your, if you have a healthcare, you know, benefits for your team, it has to include trans health care. It has to include mental health care, it has to include, right, and so there’s just all these kinds of things. It’s just like, really thoughtfully, making sure that everybody is on the right side of history, you know, well,

Maria Ross 26:50

and I love and I think it was probably around the time that I met you, when I realized that for profit businesses can be B corpse. So not everybody. There’s always been this binary thing of either I’m helping the world or I’m making a ton of money. And the whole point of the empathy edge, you know, as I’ll say, in my sign off, is that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. It doesn’t mean we’re trying to exploit compassion to make money, it just means that you can do both. They’re both achievable. And you don’t have to choose one or the other. And so you know, through you, I’ve met, you know, website developers, developing agencies who have who are B corpse. I’ve met other companies, like you said, you can’t be an office supply company and be a B Corp. On my show, I’ll put a link in the show notes, I interviewed an Ian Bentley, who is the CEO and founder of Parker clay, which sells luxury leather goods that are made in Ethiopia, and helps keep women from being human trafficked. And going into lives of prostitution. And that is a B Corp. So we need to change our mindset about what we think philanthropy looks like what we think social impact looks like. And what I love about what you’re doing is you’re saying, Yeah, even marketing, consulting, even even, that can be something that benefits the world because of the way that you do business. And as you were talking about all, you know, some of the requirements of a B Corp, I couldn’t help but think, wouldn’t it be great if one day in our world those are the requirements for starting a company? Right, not a specific kind of company? Yeah, at any company.

Lindsay Lashell 28:35

This is what’s required to think it through on your on your incorporation docks. Yeah, I mean, I’ll tell you like, quick plug, anybody else who wants to get involved I think be corpse in general, the next step really is to get to have it be a consideration and government contracting. That feels like right like right now you can have like minority ownership or women ownership is a consideration I think be corpse should also be a consideration. Like that’ll be a huge boost to our to that the movement when that happens. But I want to I just wanted this isn’t like a strictly answer to a question. But I want to name this other thing. Yes, please. Because it’s, you know, we’re talking about profit and purpose and all this kind of stuff. And then at the same time, I’m over here talking about how my clients are all really underrepresented, underestimated individuals, whether they are founders of a nonprofit, or you know, queer, bipoc, whatever. And I am going to make a lot of money by helping them in an equitable way. And so I really, I want everyone who does who offer services, but even some goods can do this, to start to think about what sliding scale pricing would look like in their business model. That is how that is how we control for opportunity, right? To me, the thing that I always say is that access to resources should never determine access to resources. Otherwise, we are just going to continue to perpetuate the, you know, investment models and really exploitative capital that has been making business run in this country since it was started. And so for me, it’s it is, I am so passionate about my work, and it is priced in a very intentional way, where I know I know what it’s worth. And I understand that a lot. And I’m making it available in a bunch of different ways, right? Like I’m working on like, I’m working on my book right now. So you’ll actually have access to like, a workbook where you’ll get everything you need for like, 25 bucks, cool, go do that, you know, and then there’s like, self serve online courses. And then I have like, small like cohort like entrepreneur cohorts that I work with. And so there’s all and then of course, there’s like, the big ticket is the is the like, one on one consulting, right. But it’s like, that huge range means that the work, the value of it can be available to anybody, because I don’t want, I just don’t want to continue to perpetuate the privilege that comes with this kind of business intelligence, really, you know,

Maria Ross 31:16

well, and I love it. Because you’re building the sliding scale, you know that I think the thing that makes a lot of entrepreneurs pause when they hear sliding scale is, but what if I end up doing all this work? For no money? Right? And I love how you’re flipping that on its head, it’s about having maybe different offerings at different price points. Yes, with that, you know, with your book, you write it once it’s available, it can actually scale, right? Versus your one on one bespoke engagements. That might not be something you’re going to offer on a sliding scale. Or maybe you will make that choice, right? And you get to decide what’s in scope of that threat. Someone can go, Okay, well, maybe I’m not gonna get 100% of the benefit of it. But I’m gonna get 80% And you’re not going to feel resentful offering it? That’s right. I think that’s the mistake is some entrepreneurs get so gung ho about that, that they start offering everything on a sliding scale, and then people are paying them like, you know, $100 for 40 hours of their time. And that’s not promoting equity and opportunity either for you. Right, that’s

Lindsay Lashell 32:18

including ourselves, which is something that a lot of women consultants will do, right. So yeah, no, I do. I think it’s interesting, because one thing I’m toying with, I’ll just like, mention it. I’m i This heard it here first, that Yeah, exactly. The entrepreneur cohort, that it’s six, it’s a maximum of six, required found, like they have to be founders because it’s like skin in the game. Right, right. And so and I’m actually thinking about offering this as a little bit like pay what you can model, like, there’s the price, there’s the equity discount, and then there’s the I have the privilege and opportunity to help cover the equity discount. And so I think that’s the the, you know, there’s the retail, the retail plus and the retail minus sort of pricing structure that I’m going to that I’m going to introduce this year. So I’m excited to see how that goes. Yeah,

Maria Ross 33:14

definitely. You’ll have to report back. Yeah. Well, any other final thoughts to folks listening, whether they’re working for themselves, or they’re working within a larger organization and really struggling with trying to and I know, I struggled with this early in my career of like, how do I take my business skills and still do good in the world? Right? What’s your advice to people as they try to look at aligning their purpose with their paycheck or their purpose with their profit?

Lindsay Lashell 33:42

That’s a good question. I think, I think it’s really kind of, it feels so cheesy, but I really do believe this. I think it’s just like, being empathetic with yourself. Like, understand, listen to yourself, when you that little voice tells you what you actually want to be doing. And it’s it’s not what you are doing. Because I think, you know, is it Gay Hendricks that writes about the zone of genius. Right? Like, that’s like, the most powerful thing is when you know you are doing what you are great at. And so I think as entrepreneurs, especially, it’s really easy to get sort of blown around by what clients or prospects are asking us for and stuff like that. And I when you get to a place where you know what you are for this is one of the reasons why I am so grateful like this. I had a wonderful conversation with a client slash friend slash coach. And it was about knowing what you’re for, and what you’re not for. And, you know, to use some like relevant examples like roe gets overturned. That’s upsetting to me. But I am not the best person to fight that battle. I can help the people who are here to fight that battle. But that is not the best use of me, right? Something like the school shootings is another thing that’s like really upsetting when it happens. And I am comforted by knowing that like, I know what my battle is. It’s not gun control. It’s not abortion access. My battle is entrepreneurship opportunity and equity. And that’s what I’m here to do. And I think if you figure out what it is that you are here for, there’s a business model there. There’s a business model that that part is not the hard part.

Maria Ross 35:34

I love what you’re saying because it reminds me of a past guest, Elisa camel, hoard Paige who co wrote the book, roadmap for Revolutionaries, she often talks about the fact of a term called triaging your it’s not your passions, triaging your causes. Yeah, and making this a community effort because one person can’t fight on every front. Exactly. So if you can get yourself into a collective or in a group where, okay, these are all the issues that that are important to me. And Lindsay, I know you’re on this and this and you know, Jane, over here you’re doing, you’re focused on this, and this, and I’m going to focus my genius on this in this and as a group, we’re going to tackle these problems. But I love that she’s got an in her book roadmap for Revolutionaries. Like I said, she co wrote that with two other female authors, they talk about how to become an activist. And without burning yourself out without thinking you’ve got you have to be the one to solve all the problems, right. And so it’s kind of goes to also towards purpose. And I think many of us, at least speaking for me struggled with that in our 20s. And you know, there was just so much and it and it paralyzed you to actually do nothing at the time. And so when we

Lindsay Lashell 36:47

Sorry, I was gonna say like, I was an elementary school teacher in my 20s. Because that’s, that was the path that I could see to how I can contribute. Right? Yeah, turned out that I mean, I love teaching and I learned a ton, I wouldn’t be great at my job today, if I hadn’t done that, then right. Also, student loan debt, and, you know, trying to pay rent by myself and all these things, like I burned out in five years, as many public school teachers do. Because it’s just, it’s a, again, it’s an exploitative job, taking advantage of the purpose of purpose driven individuals that want to do it. Yeah. So yeah, so that’s I we’re, like, wandering around trying to figure out how to, where does the purpose get applied? And I think, just figuring out which is the which is the thing that that is, you know, from you first, and then whatever marketing activist accounting activists like they like, right, like anybody

Maria Ross 37:44

activist Yeah.

Lindsay Lashell 37:48

thing, because if you’re, if you’re purposeful, and thoughtful, and really care, you know, like, yeah, you know, know what you’re doing like this,

Maria Ross 37:55

find a way to apply those skills. I remember when I was getting ready to go to college. And I was a little bit for Lauren, about the fact that I really loved marketing. And I knew I wanted to major in like marketing or advertising. And I remember having a conversation with my mom in the car, and saying, but it’s not really noble. And she was like, well, Maria, society still needs to function. Not everybody can actually do a noble profession, but you can be noble within your profession. And that was, I think what I was always trying to seek out was like, of the thing I loved to do, and that I was good at. How could I apply it to better the world to better other people to help other organizations or other individuals? And maybe they’re the ones on the frontlines? Yeah. And I’m not I’m just helping to market and amplify their work. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I love this so much. Such a great conversation. It’s so inspirational. Lindsey, I

Lindsay Lashell 38:48

know I love talking to you can I just throw out like one more idea that popped in my head, I just want to, because we’re talking about really purposefully, like reaching out trying to help whatever. And I just want to like raise a flag on white savior complex, and just like name, that if you are like me, white, and also very committed to making the world a better place, you need to educate yourself on white savior ism, because it’s really easy to have great intentions and be an asshole.

Maria Ross 39:20

But it can backfire. Really, really.

Lindsay Lashell 39:24

And so if you are transitioning into more purpose driven work, please educate yourself about how to avoid being the white savior. And, you know, think a lot more about collaborating with and partnering with, rather than, you know, gifting

Maria Ross 39:41

or doing for this is a great segue into an episode I did with Heather Hiscox, who was yeah, she’s amazing. She’s, she talks a lot about about where social impact organizations and advocates go wrong. With the best of intentions, the to try to solve problems for people versus solving problems with people, and I’ll put a link to her episode because it opened my eyes to so much and especially for those of you listening who want to have impact and want to do good, there’s a an effective and an ineffective way to go about that. And so please, if you get a chance, after you hop off this, take a listen to Heather’s episode that I’ll put in the show notes. But, Lindsey, thank you so much for your time, we’ll have all your links in the show notes and your generous offer to take your social media course free. Again, it’s called the Social Media solution, how to walk away from channels you don’t like without sacrificing opportunity. And there’ll be a coupon code for empathy edge listeners to get that $50 course for free, open access. And again, all your links will be there. But for folks on the go are working out right now as they’re listening to this where’s the best place they can find out more about you and your work?

Lindsay Lashell 40:53

Yeah, so my website is open dash lines.co. There’s all kinds of information you can like download a chapter of the book or sign up for a course or whatever. And then if you want, like more my very strong opinions, just search for me on LinkedIn. Right?

Maria Ross 41:10

Yes, thank you. You’re very strong opinions are very insightful, so keep them coming. Thank you so much for your time. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always, if you liked what you heard, please share it with a friend or a colleague. Don’t forget to rate and review as well. And until next time, always remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

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