How often do you challenge your assumptions about others and get curious – especially about those in your workplace or your family who have different views than you, political or otherwise? In our increasingly polarized society, my guest today, Mónica Guzmán, believes that we can’t count on institutions to bridge those divides for us – we have to do it one conversation, one person, at a time.
Today, we discussed how she got involved in the work of helping people understand each other better and what role her journalism career played in that mission. We dived into how to bring emotion back into conversations rather than trying to win arguments with data, and a magic question you can ask people who disagree with you to better understand them. We talked about how to have more curious conversations and how to navigate roadblocks. Some great tips for those of you going into election season or tense family dinners over the holidays!
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- You can’t have a negotiation if there is no talking. We are judging more while talking less and that only leads further to divide, and not to empathy and understanding.
- The level we think change doesn’t matter, one-on-one conversations, is where change happens the most.
- You often believe that the people that you love and care about who disagree with you are not the majority but an exception to the rule. However, if you talk with others who disagree with you, you will find out that they are not the exception, but the rule
“The most powerful question that actually gets great information from the other person that leads to understanding and also avoids judgment is asking people what concerns them.”
— Mónica Guzmán
“If we don’t engage across disagreement, we risk not seeing variables that are really important to other people, and make for a far more honest accounting of everything that’s at play when people make decisions.” — Mónica Guzmán
“Curiosity is an incredible form of caring.” — Mónica Guzmán
“Searching for truth and searching for trust, are both incredibly important. If you get to a point in the conversation where you realize you don’t have the same facts…go back to talking about what concerns people and try to have a conversation about values.” — Mónica Guzmán
About Mónica Guzmán, Senior Fellow for Public Practice at Braver Angels
Mónica Guzmán is a bridge builder, journalist, and entrepreneur who lives for great conversations sparked by curious questions. She’s the director of digital and storytelling at Braver Angels, the nation’s largest cross-partisan grassroots organization working to depolarize America; host of live interview series at Crosscut; and cofounder of the award-winning Seattle newsletter The Evergrey. Monica’s new book, I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times has been praised by the media, readers and influencers alike.
She was a 2019 fellow at the Henry M. Jackson Foundation, where she studied social and political division, and a 2016 fellow at the Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard University, where she researched how journalists can rethink their roles to better meet the needs of a participatory public. She was named one of the 50 most influential women in Seattle, served twice as a juror for the Pulitzer Prizes, and plays a barbarian named Shadrack in her besties’ Dungeons & Dragons campaign. A Mexican immigrant, Latina, and dual US/Mexico citizen, she lives in Seattle with her husband and two kids and is the proud liberal daughter of conservative parents.
Resources Mentioned:
The Empathy Edge: Interview with Edwin Rutsch, How Empathy Circles Can Change the World
Center for Building a Culture of Empathy
Empathy Circle Website
Check out Edwin and an Empathy Circle in action in the documentary Trumphobia: What Both Sides Fear: trumphobiamovie.com/watch
Connect with Mónica Guzmán:
Braver Angels Website: https://braverangels.org/
Monica’s Website and info about her book, I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times: https://reclaimcuriosity.com
Website: https://moniguzman.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/moniguzman
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moniguzman/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/reclaimcuriosity
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/moniguzman/
Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Twitter: @redslice
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Next month, those of us in the US deal with two situations where disagreement can create Stark divisions, election day and Thanksgiving dinner. If you want some help navigating tense conversations, so you can still stay connected to those you work with, or are related to today’s episode is for you. How often do you challenge your assumptions about others and get curious, especially about those in your workplace or your family who have different views than you political or otherwise in our increasingly polarized society? My guest today, Monica Guzman believes that we can’t count on institutions to bridge those divides for us. We have to do it one conversation, one person at a time. Monica Guzman is a bridge builder, journalist and entrepreneur who lives for great conversations sparked by curious questions. She’s a senior fellow for public practice at braver angels, the nation’s largest cross partisan grassroots organization working to depolarize America. She’s hosted a live interview series at cross cut. She’s co founder of the award winning Seattle newsletter, The ever gray and Monaco’s new book. I never thought of it that way. How to have fearlessly curious conversations in dangerously divided times has been praised by the media, readers and influencers alike. A Mexican immigrant, Latina and dual US Mexico citizen Monica lives in Seattle with her husband and two kids, and is the proud liberal daughter of conservative parents. She also has some very interesting accolades and hobbies, which you can read more about in her bio in the show notes. Today, we discussed how she got involved in the work of helping people understand each other better, and what role her journalism career played in that mission. We also discuss why her book is different from many other books about navigating difficult conversations. We’ve dived into how to bring emotion back into conversations. Rather than trying to win arguments with data and a magic question you can ask people who disagree with you to better understand them. We talked about how to have more curious conversations, and how to navigate those nasty roadblocks. Some great tips for those of you going into election season, or tense family dinners over the holidays. Good luck and take a listen.
Maria Ross 04:29
Big welcome Monica Guzman to the empathy edge podcast. I am really really excited. Well, I’m really, really excited about all my guests. But I’m very, very excited to have this conversation with you because your book, I never thought of it that way how to have fearlessly curious conversations in dangerously divided times, is one of the big reasons I even embarked on my empathy research and the work that I continue to do the speaking that I continue to do. So, welcome to the podcast.
Monica Guzman 04:58
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
Maria Ross 05:00
It’s great. And we talked about I think our paths crossed in Seattle at some point between 2007 and 2012. So, I know I had heard about you and the amazing work that you’ve done. So, tell us just briefly your story, and how you got to this work about helping people embrace curious conversations with people that are different from them or have a different worldview.
Monica Guzman 05:27
So, for me, a lot of how I got to this point, is a clarification of my own personal mission. I got into journalism right out of college thinking, oh, it’s because I love to interview people. It’s because I love to talk to people. And I’ve realized over time that what it is, is that I really, really love trying to help people understand each other. That was what drew me to journalism to begin with. And it is what then pulled me from just straight journalism to this kind of deeper, more comprehensive work of how do you help a society that feels broken in its ability to communicate, honestly, candidly, across disagreement, be able to do that. So, that they can see the world as it is, instead of you know, what we’re doing, which is often being in our silos and having this fractured lens color, everything. So, the two main reasons that the two main threads that led me to write the book, one was my journalism, I really care about people understanding each other, so many of our deepest conflicts and impasses when we try to thrive as a society, I think, boiled down to that. But also, my personal story. So, I am a Mexican immigrant like my parents, they voted for Donald Trump, both in 2016 and 2020. I voted for Clinton, and then Biden, you can imagine the the political divide in our family and how it’s manifest. But the the, I guess, extraordinary thing, is that I’ve gotten to the place where I can say, not only that, I understand why they made a very different choice for me that I found, like, wow, like I couldn’t even imagine, but also that if I were them, I would have made the same choice.
Maria Ross 07:16
Interesting. Well, and context is everything right? And that’s really about us keeping ourselves in silos and the continued polarization is what prevents us from having the conversations to still disagree, because empathy is not about agreeing with people. But it’s about giving people space to be heard. So, at least you go, I still don’t agree with you. And I don’t agree with that method. I don’t agree with that budget proposal. I don’t agree with that strategy. I don’t agree with that political candidate. But I understand why you do. I understand your, your, your background, your context, how you’re seeing the situation. And so at least now that we might be understanding each other as humans, maybe there is a way forward together, where at least now we’re talking right, you can’t have a negotiation if there’s no talking,
Monica Guzman 08:07
Right? Because what’s been have happening is this dynamic, where we’re judging each other more, while engaging each other less. So, play out that movie. And these these things happen, where engagement becomes more and more like unappetizing. And even you start to think it’s evil. It’s bad. If I even have this conversation, I’m, I’m compromising my own values. I’m, I’m giving up on my community, I’m condoning horrible ideas. And so, a lot of these kinds of barriers have really implanted themselves in the consciousness of some corners of our discourse. And so that’s how deeply fractured we are. I mean, it’s one thing to disagree and be like, I’m annoyed, I don’t want to talk to you right now or all of that. But to start to believe that even hearing your story is evil. When we start getting close to that, that’s a red alert. That’s a that’s a red alert, right? Like, we’re, we’re what’s going on here? How can we see each other for who we really are? And how can we get away from what I think of as the three like these three sorts of fundamental untruths where we, when we’re in the depths of a bad disagreement, we want to believe so badly, we want to believe that the other person is evil, or crazy, or stupid. And then there’s a fourth one, the fourth one is they’re wounded, they’re wounded. But all four of those are basically us saying we’re better than them.
Maria Ross 09:37
Yeah.
Monica Guzman 09:38
And you approach disagreement from that place. You won’t find understanding, you won’t. So, so much of the work is sort of internal first. Empathy is easier to sort of rationally understand and to put into practice, because it has to start inside.
Maria Ross 09:53
Absolutely. And I have a bunch of questions for you. We could probably talk for two hours, but I know we don’t have that much time. I’m just going to jump to something that I struggle with, which is what what happens when the disagreement gets to a point where it’s not just that you see things differently, or you’re, you know, debating over a policy decision, but where you question if the person in front of you views humanity in a different way, which I think is a lot of the struggle with the political discourse. It’s not so much about like, I don’t like how you approach financial budgeting within the government. Fundamentally, it’s a disagreement over policies and how humans are treated. Is there space, to have those conversations and still accept someone’s worldview? If you feel that they don’t value humanity in the same way that you do? Oh, that’s fascinating.
Monica Guzman 10:49
That’s such a great question. So it’s funny because the word humanity is it’s in my head, so clear, and yet so vague. People all mean such different things when they say humanity, but when we talk about valuing, or seeing humanity, we each have a picture of that that is uncompromising, if you don’t see humanity, if I have made the conclusion about you, based on something you’ve said, or a conversation, or something I know about you that you don’t see humanity the way I do, it becomes easy to say, something is severely wrong with you. So, so I guess that’s one thing that I would say as well, I would start getting curious about what is meant by humanity? And would that other person have the same definition. But stepping back to something maybe more practical for that moment, in a conversation? I have found that one of the most powerful questions, the most powerful questions that actually gets great information from the other person that leads to understanding and also avoids judgment, because judgment is always at the ready, right, in these sorts of moments, is asking people what concerns them. So, you find that impasse, and you start to think, Pan, they just don’t see humanity the way I do, they don’t share my values that are so obviously, like, the values we need as human beings. So, you’ll, you’ll be tempted to do a bunch of things, but what I would encourage you to do is to ask them for what concerns them. So, as we’re talking about this, I’m getting curious, what ultimately worries you about about what’s going on? What are you afraid of, if we go in this direction, or in that direction, like make an observation and ask about their concerns, you might be surprised you might get, you might get stuff you didn’t see coming. For example, if I can give a quick example. Down in Sherman County, Oregon, second smallest county, very rural, very agricultural, I led a group of mostly liberals from Seattle, who went down because we wanted to get curious about people who had made a different political choice with people who’d made a different political choice. And so, asking what concerned them, you know, as they made a choice to vote for Donald Trump, in the 2016 election, surfaced something completely surprising, which is the waters of the United States rule? Have you ever heard of that? I had worked and not know, turns out it’s federal policy, that if if misinterpreted, a very big concern from farmers was, if they the federal government might choose to decide to use this rule to claim that they can run land just as soon as some pond appears when it rains really hard. So, a lot of farmers voted for Trump, because of those kinds of economic reasons, business reasons, the Republicans understand the farm and agricultural world and everyone else is not. And I remember that a lot of liberals who had gone down we just assumed, you know, they’re, they don’t see humanity the way we do. Because if they if they saw humanity the way we do, they wouldn’t have voted for Donald Trump. But it turns out there were pieces we were missing. Hmm. And there, they had other concerns that we hadn’t, we didn’t even care about, we didn’t even know they existed.
Maria Ross 13:52
Right?
Monica Guzman 13:53
This is the thing, that if we don’t engage across disagreement, we risk not seeing variables that are really important to other people, and make for a far more honest accounting of everything that’s at play when people make decisions.
Maria Ross 14:09
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. I’ve mentioned this in a previous episode that I did with Elisa camel heart page, I believe about how we bridge divides across political difference. And how you know, I have a very strong stance on common sense gun control as an example. But I actually spoke to someone close to me, who’s a police officer. And I was asking them about how they felt about concealed carry being removed or something else around being able to carry. And the viewpoint was so interesting to me. It was it was something I’d never considered, which was, he said, as a police officer, I can’t promise I’m going to get somewhere in time. And I would hate to leave somebody defenseless because I can’t get there to help in time. And so, it was just A very interesting viewpoint about the personal right and responsibility of carrying arms, I still believe and this is the thing, empathy is not about agreeing with people, I still believe in common sense gun control. But wow, that’s a completely different perspective than, you know, we just all need guns so we can kill people, right, which is no right point of the other side. And so, it was so poignant to me, because it was actually from a very heartfelt and unselfish place, that this person felt that we should have the right to carry guns and have them available. Because, man, I care about people. And I became a police officer and a first responder and what if I don’t get there in time?
Monica Guzman 15:40
Yeah
Maria Ross 15:41
Right? which says, pretty cool. My spine.
Monica Guzman 15:44
Oh, yeah. That’s a great example. But I love that.
Maria Ross 15:47
Understanding what’s underneath things. And you can apply this to any disagreement at work with your neighbors, with your family, with your kids. But you know, it really, we really are polarized politically. So I’m so glad you’re kind of tackling this right now. You, I would like to understand with your book, which everyone needs to read, but especially, you know, with an election coming up with the Thanksgiving holidays coming up, what sets us apart from other books about bridging gaps and navigating difficult conversations, because I think luck. You know, thankfully, there’s been a lot written about that lately. But what sets your book apart, and your your thinking of it apart?
Monica Guzman 16:26
Yeah, so a couple things coming up. Now. One is, there’s a lot of books about polarization and division that really focus on the problem and how we got here, four fifths of my book is solutions. It’s what you can do. It’s practical advice. Most of the chapters end with, here’s things, you can try eight things you can try, and I think you can try in your next conversation. But I think more meaningfully than that. I’m not focused on conflict and disagreement. I’m actually using as my North Star, curiosity, the power of curiosity, in my career as a journalist. Time and time again, I have been so surprised by what can actually become delightful in discovering somebody else’s story. And unpacking somebody else’s perspective. It’s, it’s not something that happens all the time. I’m not saying that it’s necessarily you know, what, like, wow, every conversation can be pleasant. No, not at all. Most will not be it’s a cross disagreement. But if if, if we switch our mindset from, I have to resolve a conflict, right to here’s this other person, I approach that person as I approach most people guessing who they are. We are all bottomless mysteries, assuming all kinds of things, right. But a lot of the book is about the difference between curiosity and certainty. The arch villain of curiosity, is certainty. Because if you think you know, you won’t think to ask. And for me, the biggest tragedy of our toxic polarization, whether it’s political, or in your workplace, or in your own life, is when you stop wondering what people are all about when you think you’ve got them pegged. There’s no such thing is having someone packed. No, we’re changing every day anyway. Like I’m married, you know, I’m about to celebrate my 12th anniversary with my husband. We have not run out of things to talk about, or like ways to be annoyed and mystified.
Maria Ross 18:31
Exactly are ways to argue about ways to disagree about things. Yeah.
Monica Guzman 18:34
Just the other day, he gave a political opinion when I was like, mad at him, because I didn’t already know that about him. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it’s like, it’s so funny that we choose sometimes to treat people like these finite things that we’re supposed to already have figured out. Or they’ll be confound us. You know.
Maria Ross 18:53
Yeah.
Monica Guzman 18:54
Confound us, we need to go read a thought piece. And then once we read this thought piece with all these statistics, well, now we have them figured out and now for sure, we know they’re stupid. It’s like, really.
Maria Ross 19:03
When you don’t take into account that people evolve, and we’ve, we all evolve. I mean, I used to be a very strong Republican, like, what I like to call rational Republican. But again, like, that’s an assumption I’m making, but I was very conservative in my thinking. And I have bucked the trend of as you get older, you get more conservative and as I’ve gotten older, I’ve actually gotten more progressive. So you know, it’s it’s a, we’re all evolving depending on what happens to us every day and in our lives and what we’re experiencing.
Monica Guzman 19:35
Exactly, and that’s the key, the most powerful question you can really ask behind all the questions you’re actually asking is, where are you coming from?
Maria Ross 19:45
Exactly tell and I always say the magical phrase is Tell me more. Yeah, about that. So instead of meeting the statement, or the opinion, or the argument, if it gets to that point, with Well, here’s why I’m right. Then you’re wrong first. And it’s really hard. I have to bite my tongue all the time. But you know, interesting. Tell me more about that. Tell me more about why you think that. And you know, even your thing, I never thought of it that way. Tell me more. And I have found in business environments in meetings and contentious discussions and family debates. That’s just such a powerful way to get someone talking, and also help them feel heard, because part of the issue with that conflict is each side doesn’t think the other side is listening to them.
Monica Guzman 20:35
Yes, exactly. And what is telling me more, if not the actual assurance that I’m here to listen, right? It’s awesome. And I’ve thought more and more about this since the book published that curiosity is this incredible form of caring? If I if I want to know more about you, oh, my goodness, what an honor. Like, like, you know, when somebody asks me about me, and actually keeps asking, and it’s in a generous spirit, and it’s in a curious tone, that I don’t think is covering for some condescension, because sometimes that’s what I do. And if we don’t, oh, my goodness, all anyone wants is to be seen, right and understood, it’s a gift.
Maria Ross 21:17
And there’s something very non antagonistic about those words, tell me more that I’ve used in workshops that I’ve run and meetings that I’ve run versus Why do you think that way? Because if you say that with the wrong tone, it’s already layered with judgment. So
Monica Guzman 21:31
Absolutely right.
Maria Ross 21:32
I would like to talk quickly about your statement about no politician, group or institution can bridge us the way that one on one relationships? Well, and I know that’s part of the work that you do with braver angels. So, we should talk about that as well. How did you come to believe that? And how does that inform the work of braver angels? Which, you know, please tell us more about that organization?
Monica Guzman 21:55
Yeah. So, we do look at our institutions as we should, I mean, we’ve set them up to serve us, whether it’s media or politics. These are in some ways, a lot of the institutions that are implicated in our polarization, institutionally systemically, right, we see those forces at play. What I think has been unfortunate is that we begin to think that the only place where change can happen happen substantially is at that institutional level, that we have to wait for some kind of miracle politician to come and just show us the way or, you know, for the media to figure itself out all of a sudden, and like, suddenly, you know, just help us tell more responsible stories, and when I mean, they’re doing their best. But I am a huge, huge believer to my core, that it’s ultimately about culture and culture is this. It’s so annoying culture is so annoying, because no one can predict or control it at all. We try, we can’t do it. But what we do know is that it is the sum of all of us. That’s all we know. And so. So, I don’t see politics or media changing unless we’re changing. And I don’t see us changing, unless we’re doing it at that minuscule one to one conversation level, the level that we think doesn’t matter is where it matters. And one of the reasons that I know that is because the only honest conversations, I shouldn’t say the only but by far most of the honest, candid, open transformative conversations that I have are one to one. I mean, that that’s where people, that’s where the likelihood of you’re actually getting to understanding and trust is highest. So we need to be using that. That is our deepest, richest toolbox and context. But I think that we’re scared, and it’s it feels so hard. And so, we’ll do anything to avoid that. You know, like some people, it’s like, you know, you fight polarization by reading about it and understanding it as a problem, but then not doing anything in your own life. Well, it’s like, oh, yeah, actually, this has to be a practice, not a theory. It has to be a practice.
Maria Ross 24:11
And is that the philosophy behind braver angels and just briefly tell us what the organization facilitates?
Monica Guzman 24:19
Yes. So braver angels is the nation’s largest grassroots nonprofit working to depolarize America. We’ve been at it since just after the 2016 election. It started with a workshop led by a renowned family therapist, like a guy good at divorce. And it was a workshop between 10 Trump voters and 10 Clink Clinton voters that went more phenomenally than anyone had imagined, even though it was able to contain anger and tension. And I’ve talked to the therapist that read that. I mean, that led led the conversation, you know, and he was like, there were a couple moments. I wasn’t sure we were going to figure this out. But then they did. And so they It began with that one workshop it is now we have on our menu, something like 50 workshops are programs that are targeted at this kind of progression. One of our workshops called depolarizing, within, and it’s about becoming conscious and aware of our own assumptions and how they get in our way, if we want to have more depolarizing conversations, then there’s skills for bridging the political divide, then there’s our famous red blue workshop, which has been studied by Brown University has been demonstrated to actually decrease hostility across the political divide, you get to witness ordinary people on the other side, being humble about their own side being critical about their own side, which is something that is sorely lacking, right. And it goes on and on and on, I can tell you way more. But yes, this idea that it has to be a practice is, is very much at the heart of braver angels, because because it’s not any we can make it an intellectual exercise, we can make sure the influencers you know, share memes about it, but at the end of the day, it’s it’s something you have to experience in at a time that’s this divided. For a lot of people we’ve really lost hope. But if but if they’re in that room, and they see it, and they go, oh, wait a minute, I had no idea that someone on the other side might think that way. What else am I wrong about?
Maria Ross 26:11
Right? Right. And it gives you back that growth mindset that learners on set, like you said, not that certainty. And you are probably already familiar with Edwin Ruch, who runs the building a culture of empathy. He does empathy circle training for people all over the world. He does it for free. And he has trained now 1000s of people on what’s, you know, I highly recommend it to everyone. I’ve talked about him on my show before I’ve had him on the show before. But it’s a very intense isolation of your active listening muscle. And he does these trainings over the course of several weeks, you can sign up for a cohort at empathy circles.com. But he was featured in a few documentaries, because they brought these circles to the most divisive political rallies we had after 2016, he was featured in a documentary called Trump phobia. And they brought into these empathy tents at these rallies. One person from one side of the spectrum, one person from the other side of the spectrum, and got them to talk and actively listen to each other. And they didn’t walk away agreeing, but they walked away hugging, seeing each other as human beings Exactly. And he’s doing it one person at a time, one group at a time, just like braver angels, because it’s always that thing where the quote unquote other side is this big amorphous mob that you picture, you think they’re homogeneous, you think they’re all the same. But then there’s always the exception of like, Oh, but I know this one person over here, and they’re really nice. And I love how they treat their family. They’re just a really good guy or gal. And in your mind, you think of them as the exception to the rule. Because they’re the one you know, but it turns out, there’s probably more people like them that believe those things or come from that country, or you just, it’s, it’s so interesting about that when it becomes personal. That’s when it’s important. There was a new story on NPR several months ago, and I’m going to butcher the, the citation of this. Apologies to you as, but there was a town in Wisconsin that voted. With Trump years ago, they they tried to pass some really harsh legislation around immigrant families. And then the town, they are they were actually trying to kick people out of the town that were, you know, seeking asylum or whatever. And then someone realized this one immigrant that they all knew and love. I remember this. Impacted by this, right? I do. And then they changed their tune, because all of a sudden, they were like, oh, no, not this person. We know this person. He’s a beloved part of this community. Oh, I didn’t realize these are the people we were fighting against, and how it was impacting them. And it was, it was beautiful, the way the town rallied around it. And and, you know, fortunately, unfortunately, it took them knowing this one person, for them to see that, oh, this actually has deeper impact than I thought it might have had.
Monica Guzman 29:14
Right. And it demonstrates how we work relationship is so, so important. And I think we often get stuck on this idea that being smart, and good. And right means only employing our reason. You know, like give me give me all the arguments and everything. And they’ll just talk about it on social media and like, we’ll just suss it out that way. But if you don’t include relationship if you don’t include getting to know that someone else has concerns far beyond this idea where you disagree. You forget you forget what connects us. And I know that sounds corny, but it’s actually essential, I think about how trust and truth are two different operations both critical for our healthy social functioning. So, I get asked this question a lot. What happens when you’re in a disagreement? And you realize that the other person is just not even telling the truth? They’re both they’re believing some conspiracy theory is that when you can’t agree on facts, the facts are just wrong. And and for a lot of people, there’s almost like a moral end of the conversation right there. How can you possibly move on? If you continue? Then what are you endorsing lies? What does that even mean? And we’re all very, like lost in that puzzle. But but for me, the framework is searching for truth. And searching for trust, are both incredibly important. If you get to a point in the conversation where you realize you don’t have the same facts, you’re going to be tempted to tell them, You’re wrong. Oh, my gosh. And then just kind of like, send a bunch of articles their way, I had one person, tell me show me this text thread that he did with a friend, like an old high school friend and the other side. And he showed me the whole thing. He goes, Monica, I don’t know why this didn’t work. We kept trying to understand it, and nothing happened. And I went through it right. And I asked him, well, what was your method? He’s like, well, my method was to inform. My method was to infer, I send them article after article that he refused to read. And he sent me articles I used to read. Like, yeah, when you when you disagree on facts, it’s like, all we want to do is double down on facts and like, correct other people. But actually, the thing to do is to go have a completely different conversation. Go back to talking about what concerns people. Go, go to try to have a conversation about values. And, and leave the facts over here, just put them to the side, you are not going to be the person who convinces this other person that their facts are wrong, if you’re coming at them, telling them that that’s the case. And you also have to be humble enough to realize, maybe on this factual thing, you’re right. But what are you missing in the truth about the other person’s story? Right? Because we, we want to feel all superior, I have the facts. They don’t well, there’s nothing they can teach me at this point. That’s wrong. There’s something in their experience, every human being has a life story. And we are all equally knowledgeable and wise, as people who have lived lives. So, look for the truth in their story and in their concerns. And leave that leave the thing about facts to the side, because we’ve got to build trust before we can build truth. But is the ultimate goal there to eventually at? Will I always I say this, not every not every debate has to have a goal of swaying the other person.
Maria Ross 32:23
Right. Can you have a conversation and walk away? You know, someone asked me, Is it okay to say we agree to disagree? Or is that a cop out? And I said, well, it’s not if you’ve had the conversation. How do you feel about that? Is it okay to agree to disagree? Because at some point, you have to you have to wrap up that conversation? How do you
Monica Guzman 32:43
Yeah
Maria Ross 32:43
I think for people going into like, the contentious Thanksgiving dinners where there’s different politics involved or whatever.
Monica Guzman 32:49
Yeah
Maria Ross 32:50
What what do you recommend for people as the closure for what feels like an endless loop? You might be in in a conversation with someone politically?
Monica Guzman 32:58
What a great question. I think that agree to disagree, set in the right tone, can be kind of fun, and sort of release the tension that needs to be released, I guess, if if someone says agree to disagree, and it’s a way of shutting the other person up, or of trying to pretend that they’re not in it to actually convince the other person, then people can usually see through that. Right. Right. But but as a candidate, sort of what I’ve what I think it really means, but it’d be too many syllables to say is, I accept you for now, even though we are clearly different on this. On this, yeah, but I accept you. Right. Which is really the hardest and most radical. Right. Is is can you accept someone who believes something you believe is wrong? Can you accept that they are human and that they are valid as as as a person with a different opinion? And then and then what gets fun is like, then you go to the activist mindset, right? Like the the activist that we need, right? We always need people to try to change the world, we got to make it better. So, so then it’s like, does acceptance that another person have a different opinion mean that I have given up on trying to make the world a better place? And I think a lot of people also get lost there.
Maria Ross 34:07
Yes. And that’s where I struggle, because you keep hearing it’s your responsibility to stand up, it’s your responsibility to stand up against racism and and, and non-facts or you know, a different version of the truth or to correct people. And so, but what I hear you saying, and that I think is great advice, again, going into the holidays, is you can you can close those conversations out with, I love you for who you are. And I accept you for who you are. And we’re family and we’re you know, we’re friends. And I love you for who you are. And it doesn’t mean you have to give up the fight on whatever other front you’re fighting it whether you’re protesting or you’re donating money or you’re donating time or skills to the organizations that align with your values. But do you really have to continue that fight in a conversation with someone you care about with a family member. So, do I hear you write in that?
Monica Guzman 35:05
Yeah, no, I think I think that’s good hang. Yeah, I think it can hang in. And what I’m realizing thank you for this is that, you know, there’s something if you are able to make a closing kind of statement that conveys a curiosity and a continuation. I, you know, I’d love to talk about this at another time, too, when we, when we have more time. I’d love to hear more about x. That would be cool. Just earlier today, I was on an event where somebody said that they had come to believe that, that democracy was sort of like, the male was kind of cementing male dominance. And they just kind of said that and then moved on. And I was just like, I have to know what I’m doing. Or like what they mean by that, right? Because I have all these assumptions of what they mean. But I don’t know. So, I gotta go and figure that out. So, I so I told them at the end of the conversation, I really want, I hope we get a chance to talk again. But but I did it from this place of genuine enthusiasm, because I really want to know what they meant, right? So there’s a lot that we can stay open about, right. And we don’t have to jump to our judgments. And since we don’t have to jump to our judgments, we can say, I hope that this conversation continues past the pie.
Maria Ross 36:16
Right? Because if we can continue talking, then there’s hope that we can continue working together. It’s when you completely stop talking that everything is going to break down. That’s exactly right. Yes. Now I know you have to go and I’ve kept you longer than I was allowed. I have so many more questions, but I’m just going to direct people to check out your book. I never thought of it that way how to have fearlessly curious conversations in dangerously divided times. I assume it’s available and all the places all the places you can find their favorite books. All your links will be in the show notes, Monica. Thank you so much for your time today. And just really quickly, where can people find out more about you and more about braver angels.
Monica Guzman 36:55
Yes, moniguzman.com for me; Braverangels.org, for braver angels, which has 78 local chapters across the country. And you can also find me @Moni Guzman on Instagram and Twitter.
Maria Ross 37:07
That’s M-O-N-I, yes.
Monica Guzman 37:09
M-O-N-I-G-U-Z-M-A-N
Maria Ross 37:11
Perfect. And if folks are interested in how to maybe get braver angels to do something in their town, or for their organization, they can find all that at the site, right?
Monica Guzman 37:18
Yeah, yeah, go on the site, look at the map. Figure out your local state coordinators and give him a ranking ring.
Maria Ross 37:20
I love it. Well, I hope this is the start as of us having more conversations together off air because I am loving your work. Thank you so much for your time and insights today. We loved having you. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always, you know, if you loved it, read and review it, share it with your friends. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
