The research is clear: investing in diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging contributes to your bottom line. I hate to be so crass about a topic that should just be something we care about as humans connecting with other humans, but with all the recent backlash about diversity and equity initiatives, we have to get executive attention somehow.
Today, you will hear about what’s driving that backlash and how we can fight against it through empathy and understanding. And why quite frankly, exclusion is bad for business.
My guest is the charming Michael Bach. Michael shares how he got into this work, the stereotype of DEI practitioners, how to think about disability, the more dangerous role of apathy in fighting back against exclusion, the difference between diversity and inclusion, and he gives us a short primer on the Alphabet Soup of LGBTQ2+ initialism.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- If you’re trying to create any change, you need to understand how the organization operates from the inside.
- Disability is not one thing – there are hundreds of disabilities under the umbrella term. It needs to be considered as a range, not just one form of accessibility.
- It is not a competition. If we’re creating safer environments for everyone, regardless of how they identify or what they need, it creates a safer more inclusive environment for everyone.
- There is a big difference between having diversity and being inclusive. The company is the soil that needs to be right for the seed of talent to thrive.
“It’s very difficult to quantify, but if you just look at it simply you can figure out that exclusion is just bad for business. And the reality is that most employers have figured that out.”
— Michael Bach
About Michael Bach, CEO. IDEA Hub Consulting, IDEA thought leader
Michael Bach is an author, speaker and thought leader in inclusion, diversity, equity and accessibility (IDEA). He has worked globally in the IDEA field, including as the Deputy Chief Diversity Officer for KPMG International. He is the founder of the Canadian Centre for Diversity and Inclusion (CCDI), CCDI Consulting and Pride at Work Canada.
He is the author of the best-selling and award-winning books Birds of All Feathers: Doing Diversity and Inclusion Right and Alphabet Soup: The Essential Guide to LGBTQ2+ Inclusion at Work.
In 2023, he was named as one of the 10 Most Influential DE&I Leaders Revamping The Future by CIO Views Magazine.
Connect with Michael:
IDEA Hub Consulting: michaelbach.com
Books:
Birds of All Feathers: Doing Diversity and Inclusion Right
Alphabet Soup: The Essential Guide to LGBTQ2+ Inclusion at Work
New book: All About Yvie: Into the Oddity
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/themichaelbach
Facebook: facebook.com/themichaelbach
Instagram: instagram.com/themichaelbach
Threads: threads.net/@themichaelbach
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. The research is clear. Investing in diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging contributes to your bottom line. I hate to be so crass about a topic that should just be well, something we care about as humans connecting with other humans. But with all the recent backlash about diversity and equity initiatives, we have to get executive attention somehow. Today, you’re going to hear about what is driving that backlash and how we can fight against it through empathy and understanding, and why quite frankly, exclusion is bad for your business. My guest is the charming Michael Bock, CEO of IDEA hub consulting and an author, speaker and thought leader in the acronym he prefers idea, inclusion, diversity, equity and accessibility. He’s worked globally in the idea field, including as the Deputy Chief Diversity Officer for KPMG International. Michael is the founder of the Canadian Centre for Diversity and Inclusion CCDI CCDI consulting and Pride at Work Canada. He’s the author of the best selling and award winning books, birds of all feathers, doing diversity and inclusion, right. And alphabet soup, The Essential Guide to LGBTQ two plus inclusion at work. And in 2023, he was named as one of the 10 most influential D and I leaders revamping the future by CIO views magazine. Michael shares how we got into this work, the stereotype of dei practitioners how to think about disability, the more dangerous role of apathy and fighting back against exclusion, the difference between diversity and inclusion, and he gives us a short primer on the alphabet soup of LGBTQ two plus Initialism. If you’ve ever been confused as to what each letter in term mean, you’ll enjoy today’s show. Plus, he offers a sneak peek into his newest book, all about Eevee into the oddity a candid biography of Divi, oddly season 11 winner of Ru Paul’s drag race. This was such a wild ride, enjoy the show. Michael Bock Welcome to The Empathy edge podcast. I am so excited to have you on after getting to meet you in person at the Sherm Inclusion Conference in Savannah last fall. Welcome to the show.
Michael Bach 03:09
Thank you for having me. Maria Ross, it’s good to see you.
Maria Ross 03:13
It’s good to see you too. And we should mention as I do with my other fellow page, two authors that we are also page two fellow authors, we are working with the fabulous publishing team that’s there. So let’s talk a little bit about your work. We heard your bio and all your great credentials in the intro, but why don’t you tell us a little bit more of your story? And how you come to this work?
Michael Bach 03:37
Great question. So I’ve been doing this work for nearly 20 years professionally, long story, but opportunity came up for me in while I was working for KPMG in Canada. In the IT consulting practice, I ended up moving into a role in diversity there. Aaron was in that role for seven years, was also the Deputy Chief Diversity Officer for the company for a couple years and then also left and ran another organization for another 10 years. I have been doing what we now call diversity and inclusion work for my entire adult life. I was raised in a very sort of social justice be a good person type environment, taught to have a high level of empathy. And, you know, even when I came out as gay, that began my journey, like I started volunteering for different LGBTQ organizations. And so it was always something I did was always part of my life, whether it was it was the LGBT space, whether it was with women, people with disabilities, newcomers, it was always part of my life. It just wasn’t a job. No one was paying me for it. Yeah, it was some or at least not what I wanted to make. It was something you did as of volunteer, and then you sold your soul to the corporate evil. And that’s how it worked. And then all of a sudden, I had this opportunity to do the work I loved inside the corporation. And that was just this magical merging of things for me.
Maria Ross 05:15
Okay, I love that story. Because I think there’s a perception that just because you are part of the LGBTQ two plus community, that you’re going to be drawn to this kind of work. And so clearly your work before that was something else. What role do you see that played you getting into this as a full time job? And again, trying to make money from it, but also trying to do it as your calling as your vocation?
Michael Bach 05:44
Yeah, you are right, that is a bit of a myth that, you know, all members of any community, right, you could talk about women, you could talk about people of color, you could talk about anything, that they’re all drawn to doing this work in this space. And that’s, you know, ridiculous. It’s like saying that all straight white men not living with a disability want to be truck drivers. I mean, random stereotype. But yeah, that’s not the case. Obviously, it had always been something that I would have done, but there just wasn’t a job. And so I went into it. I graduated university and 1940 Something kidding, it was the early 90s. And it was the career right like this, and I had already done a college diploma and it and it was like a language I spoke. So it was a very natural career for me to be in. And it was good money. And right. So it wasn’t until this opportunity at KPMG. Were, all of a sudden, they were saying, Well, we’re gonna hire this role. And, you know, the company, you know, I knew the organization, I’d been there for a couple years, I knew who the players were, and how to get things done. And I think as as idea practitioners, that is far more important than Do you understand what like Muslim burial rights are, or reconciliation with indigenous people, you learn that stuff. But knowing who the CEO is, and how things happen in an organization is critically important. So I think it was I was in the right place at the right time, with the right skills,
Maria Ross 07:36
right. And that’s such an astute observation, because so much of it is about, yes, doing the work and being passionate about it. But if you’re trying to make any change and create any sort of transformation, you need to understand how an organization operates. And I think that’s why unfortunately, so many times that someone is brought in from the outside, with all good intentions, and all the right skills, if they don’t have those relationships within the company. If they don’t really know how things get done, they’re, they’re going to be very limited in their ability to have an impact. And I think that’s a really, really important point. And it’s interesting that you say this, because I started out in the Big Six consulting firms as well at Anderson Consulting, back when it was called Anderson, so I am dating myself as well. But we had made recipes. We had a change management group, I was in the Change Management Group, which was the people side of the work that you did, we would take what the IT developers and programmers were doing and make it understandable to users. But we had I remember this, this was 1994, we had a Diversity Committee. That was sort of an extracurricular if you wanted to join it, and I joined it, not really knowing I thought it was more about, you know, just cultural differences and understanding it wasn’t sort of the the scope that it is now. And we were able to do some things, we were able to bring some awareness and have some programs. But it was sort of this thing on the side, there was no one actually championing championing it I can ever say that word within the organization from a policy level from a hiring level from a values level. And so what how interesting to be in the line of work that you’re in and to see that evolution of wow, this wasn’t a thing before. And now it’s this big thing. Right? So that was originally
Michael Bach 09:27
90s. At least in my experience, those committees didn’t exist in every
Maria Ross 09:31
organization. No, no, it was very unique. Yeah,
Michael Bach 09:35
I worked in a big bank. And there was an I’m talking about a big global bank, there was nothing right there was no conversation about this. Right. And again, it was just that right time, right place right skills. And boy, am I lucky that the this KPMG took a chance on me I didn’t really know what I was doing. Like truth be told, I got the job and went, Oh, heck, how do I do this? What do I do? Right? And I just happened to be somebody who’s, you know, got a lot of gumption and I just picked up the phone and called other people who were in these roles at different organizations who were in the same situation. They already just because a lot of them, yeah, oh, no, there were probably at the time. So 2006, there were probably 50 people in Canada, with diversity in their title 50 out of 35 million people. And in the States, it was a little more, or it was a little more mature of the profession, largely because of things like affirmative action. And the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Kennedy was a little late to the party on this one. But I just call people and said, How do we do it? What do I do and got a lot of advice, and those people are still my friends to this day. But if to your point, had I been on the outside of the organization coming in blind into a brand new role? I would have failed. Guaranteed failure? Because I didn’t know I wouldn’t have known how things happened in a big fork accounting and consulting firm. And that information was critical to my success.
Maria Ross 11:20
I love it. Okay, so let’s talk about this because you talk about your work not as Dei, an idea, i e, AE. Can you tell us what that means? And then I have a follow on question about why is it under attack right now.
Michael Bach 11:40
So, I use the acronym idea. Inclusion, Diversity, Equity and accessibility. And there are lots of different versions of this initialism or acronym you’ll hear EDI di idea, sometimes you’ll hear like, dei A, which is the same as idea but it’s mixed order. D ay b. Sometimes they’ll throw a j in there. They all essentially the same thing. A justice. Oh, okay. Okay, B is for belonging. That’s yeah, I should also so belonging EIB before.
Maria Ross 12:16
Yes, yep. And
Michael Bach 12:19
they all essentially mean the same thing. They all essentially are the same point. We’re trying to make inclusive, equitable, accessible workplaces, so that everyone can succeed. Everyone. In order to acknowledge that that is a requirement, you have to acknowledge that there are some people in society that don’t have the same opportunities as others, that bias exists, that discrimination occurs. Things like racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, anti semitism, pick your, your terminology, that all of them exist, and those things hold people back. So to your follow up question. And I will say, I use I use idea because as a person who lives with a disability, it’s really important for me that the A is in there, because I find that people with disabilities notoriously get left off. They just don’t find their way to being included. They’re a secondary citizen in the inclusion conversation. And
Maria Ross 13:28
I feel like that’s the next frontier. I feel like I’m hearing more and more of the groundswell around that. I don’t know if you are, but I feel like that do need to come to the forefront with even just from a very practical level, people looking at websites and saying, you know, is it accessibility approved? Is it you know, is this accessible to all people? Are we using alt tags? Are we using all these things? Those were things people weren’t even talking about five years ago?
Michael Bach 13:52
I do. Yeah, I agree. And a lot of that is being driven by, frankly, a lot of really big names coming out and talking about being neurodivergent or living with depression or anxiety. And so the celebrity status piece is kind of attached to that. The question is, when the noise from Instagram dies down about that, will we still be talking about accessibility? You know, we live in a highly inaccessible world. And you have to think about disability as not one thing, but a combination of things because of course, there isn’t one disability. There are hundreds of different disabilities that are included in this umbrella term disability. To come to your follow up question, why is it under attack? So I believe that there is a small minority of people who are feeling empowered, thanks to a former president whose name shall not be used, who have been pushed into a corner they don’t feel included. eluded, they’re scared, they hear the data that says that white people are on the decline. And that’s true white people are in decline in terms of the population, because of other ethnic groups, racial and ethnic groups that are growing, whether they’re Latinx, Hispanic, Black, Asian, you name it, we are on the decline, we are not making enough babies to keep up. So they feel threatened. And it’s that combination of being threatened, which they that’s not new, add into it change, which, generally speaking, people are uncomfortable with and don’t enjoy change. And then that empowerment piece where they feel like it’s okay for them, to apply their belief system to a society. And when I say a small minority, I’m talking about maybe 20 to 25% of the population share beliefs, that would be considered exclusionary, they believe that their identity, be it as a man, be it as a cisgender, person, white, able bodied, whatever the case, English speaking, American Canadian, that they are entitled to something and that other people are less than that if you are a member of the LGBTQ plus communities, if you are a person with a disability, if you are an immigrant, that you somehow are less of a human being than they are. And it’s a combination of those things mixed in with a very individualistic me against the world, everyone for themselves. attitude and the lack of empathy. Where they don’t think they don’t see human beings on the other end of this conversation. They see sub human beings, and so they’re not empathetic. They’re very selfish. And I think it’s a, it’s a combination of all of these pieces. And, you know, when I say 20 to 25%, I’m looking at all of the research that shows us that, you know, 70, some odd from companies like Gallup and big research company, something like 75% of Americans support LGBTQ inclusion. So that’s a majority. It’s not a minority, right.
Maria Ross 17:38
But they’re just really loud. They’re
Michael Bach 17:41
really loud, and they’re really getting
Maria Ross 17:43
the airtime they’re getting the media attention. It’s It’s shocking. So it’s clickbait. It’s all the things but what I find so interesting, to be kind with with that word choice, is just the impact of, you know, like the book bands going on. And the like, we’re not going to talk about black history as it happened in our schools, we’re going to get rid of affirmative action, the proactive dismantling of the information, thinking that it’s going to somehow influence or taint someone into a behavior or a life choice that they actually don’t subscribe to. Case in point. The whole thing about the book bands, and taking out books, especially around stories, involving LGBTQ to a, I’m looking down at my notes plus, folks, this this whole thing of getting them out of schools, because they’re inappropriate, is not because they’re inappropriate. It’s because there’s a fear that it’s going to turn my kid gay, or turn my kid trans. We were listening to an NPR story in the car. This was about two years ago with my son, so he was about seven. And he was asking what was going on? And I said, Well, there’s certain places that are banning these books. And he had been exposed to books around transgender kids, I found book children’s books, a great way to open the conversation without it being so loaded with him. So it would just normalize it like, oh, we could refer back to that book reread, and that protagonist we read about. And he said, why would someone think that reading a book about a gay person would turn them gay? Seven years old? And I said, Exactly honey, I go, you read a book about a trans child, Are you trans? And he goes, No, I like being a boy. I’m like groovy. You do you like this is a conversation with a seven year old who can grasp this? Yeah. And it’s it’s this fear that it’s going to turn someone into someone they’re not that I just, I’m trying to be empathetic and understand, but I don’t think it’s grounded in reason.
Michael Bach 19:55
I agree. It’s not grounded in reason. And listen, I was raised by straight parents. I did not have any LGBTQ plus siblings, relatives, I did not see any books. You know, I’m a child of the 70s and 80s, there was nothing, I still turned out to be gay. So that logic doesn’t work at all. No, or the one that kills me is drag queen storytime and how they’re, they’re influencing children and grooming children. Because there’s nothing that says to a child. Here is a middle aged man, heavyset Harry in a dress, sweating his tits off, that you think, oh, that’s what I aspire to? Are you kidding me? Nothing about it. Oh, my gosh, I drag queen to a child is a very feminine clown. It’s just nothing different. It is fun. ETF? You know, the other piece of the puzzle that really confuses me is the willingness to ignore all of the data that says that, you know, when you look at people who are convicted pedophiles, the vast majority I’m talking 90 plus percent identify as heterosexual. So even though they are sometimes, you know, having sex or committing pedophilia, with children of the same sex, they don’t identify as homosexual. Well, so let’s target the drag queen. Yeah, because that makes sense. Right? It is confusing. It lacks empathy. And I think we have to introduce another word into this conversation. And that’s apathy. Hmm. Because these vast majority of people who say that they say, whether it’s LGBT inclusion, whether it’s a woman’s right to choose, whether it’s inclusion, they’re sitting on the sidelines, saying, Oh, it doesn’t impact me. Right? Doesn’t I don’t I don’t, you know, I don’t need to deal with this. So when the Marjorie Taylor greens, or the Ron DeSantis ‘s of the world are oppressing people, they’re not doing anything. Right. And I think this is where the pendulum of reason has swung way too far to one side. And we have allowed the, the this small minority of people to take over the narrative, and we as a society need to push back. And I think the example I would use to say, to show how that works is Kansas. Stay with me for a second, the Republican Congress or state legislature in Kansas was thinking they were so smart, and they were going to entrench it into their constitution that abortion was a should be banned, and it’s illegal. And it over whelmingly failed, and is now required, they have to entrench it in the Constitution, because they put it to a referendum. And their laws state that they have to do that. So the vast majority of people in that instance came out and said, Hold on a second, no, my body my choice. And that’s what needs to happen is the vast majority has to stand up to the Ronda Sana, I call the governor Rhonda Rhonda Santas because I think that’s just funny. Like, that’d be a great drag name, Rhonda Santas that Rhonda needs to have a little awakening where the vast majority of Floridians because we know he’s not making the he’s not winning this one, stand up and say, yeah, not okay. You’ve gone too far. You’re oppressing people. We’re taking things back. And I think that, you know, not to get political, but I think the Republican Party is going to end up being pushed into the abyss by this very far right, social conservative voice, where they’ve just they’ve lost the narrative. Yeah, really? Well, I think on a tangent,
Maria Ross 24:16
no, it’s all good, because it’s all related and it and it impacts workplace policies and and the progress that we have made on inclusion. And you know, people are already saying the data around the Supreme Court’s decision around affirmative action. They’re saying, here’s what’s going to happen. And it’s not good. It’s not good for organizations. You know, I know a lot of your work is talking about what is what is the cost of exclusion, and what is the upside of inclusion? And again, there’s so much data there. So can you share a little bit with us about, you know, what are companies losing when they don’t embrace inclusion when they don’t embrace policies that can Help them diversify their workforce and make their workforce more accessible to more people, what are they losing? From that stance? Yeah.
Michael Bach 25:10
And it’s a lot. And I, you know, I come from a technical background, a data background. And I do a present number of keynotes. But one of them is on the business case, for LGBTQ inclusion, the cost of the club, and I use that as one example of how employers are losing money. And I have a whole set of data that I put up and I, essentially, if a person’s in a closet, they’re wasting 15 minutes of their day, doing something that isn’t their job, explaining about their sexual orientation, or their gender, or hiding it, whatever, 15 minutes a day, that’s 65 hours a year of wasted time for something they’re not getting paid for. And then I add in the average salary, etc. And I have calculated that in Canada, the United States, just on the LGBTQ file alone, we’re wasting over a trillion dollars a year in salary for people doing something that isn’t their job. That doesn’t take into consideration, higher levels of voluntary turnover, lower levels of engagement, productivity, innovation, safety, incidents, absenteeism, presenteeism, all of the costs, that are impacting both top and bottom line. In organizations, you add in all of the groups, I put in air quotes that are included under the diversity, umbrella women, people of color, people with disabilities, indigenous people, or Native Americans, Native Alaskans, Native Hawaiians, people within the LGBTQ community, newcomers etc. We’re talking trillions and trillions of dollars, that employers are wasting, because they’re not creating inclusive and equitable environment. It is a and I, you know, I am throwing out a really big number. And it’s, it’s very difficult to quantify. But if you just look at it, simply you can figure out that exclusion is just bad for business. And the reality is that most employers have figured that out. And the Supreme Court can do what it likes. But they’re going to figure out ways to make sure that they are tapping into the widest possible talent pool. And that those people are engaged, that they feel like they can be themselves in those organizations that they’re going to give their all to wherever they’re working. And the CEOs and executive directors and whatnot of the world are saying, Yeah, I you, okay, we affirmative action, which, frankly, is been a disaster since it was brought out fine, that’s not allowed. But I can still ask my people how they identify, and I can track the data, and I can make sure that I’m that I’m representative of the communities that I serve, and I’m not missing out on a talent pool. That’s gonna happen. Yeah,
Maria Ross 28:19
that’s chickens still diversify their hiring, they can still put their own corporate policies in place and have their own corporate values they they are adhering to, and they can create a safe haven, but they can create a safe haven that actually benefits them financially. Absolutely. And I have no trouble. I know, you don’t either. Talking about both of those things. Simultaneously, I got some criticism of my TEDx talk, talking about tricking leaders into being more empathetic by showing them what’s in it for them. But if that’s how we make change, and how we make the world better, fine, if that’s what’s going to help somebody see things differently, and gets them to the table that gets them in the room to have the conversation, and then be changed by that and say, Wow, I didn’t realize what I was missing out on. They can’t unsee it. You don’t you don’t learn how to be empathetic, you don’t learn how to be inclusive, and then not be that way anymore. You’re sort of transformed from the outside in is what I always say. And so this is why I’m so drawn to your work. And I feel like I have a compatriot here in this idea of Yes, unfortunately, I know that, for me, it’s empathy for you. It’s inclusion is supposed to be something like this moral imperative. We don’t want to taint it by talking about business that’s not working. So it’s never worked and make it work. Yeah, we’ve got it we’ve got to meet we’ve got to meet people where they are. We’ve got to be empathetic about it and say what’s going to impact you to change as
Michael Bach 29:50
human beings we are innately selfish. We are going to do things that are in our own best interest. It’s very, very difficult, and you have to be a very evolved person to operate from a place that isn’t self involved. So, I always say to people, I don’t care how I get the horse to the water, but I’m gonna make the damn thing drink. And if if that’s focusing on the business imperative, great. The social justice imperative hasn’t worked. We’ve been at it for 5060 years, and it has not worked. And I think the difference being is it? Are we talking about the infamous corporate social responsibility? Or what’s now called ESG environments as environment, social and governance? Or are we talking about business imperative? Are we talking about what’s good for our top and bottom line? We are in the people business, you got to have people and, you know, all of the science shows us that we have to have engaged people back so that we can have productive people and safe people and, and if the CEOs of the world are looking at this from a selfish perspective, to say, this is how I can make my company make more money, okay? Because we as a society win, right? And all those people when
Maria Ross 31:17
you get, they get to work in a psychologically safe, inclusive, welcoming environment where they can do their best work, they can innovate, they can be creative, they can solve problems, they can have successes, and yeah, yeah, we all win, we all win. And it doesn’t have to be the moral imperative. No, and it also the other thing, too, is none of this says that we have to punish straight white people. In order to make this happen. I feel like that’s always the fear of they’re going to be impacted negatively, somehow by this. And it’s the rising tide lifts all ships, right, it’s going to create a better workplace for you, for you to shine and you to bring your best work. And this, you know, imaginary scenario that people always have about, like, it’s going to come down to me, and a gay person for the job, or me and a black person for the job, and they’re gonna win out just because it’s never that black and white. It’s never that it’s, I don’t know, it’s just, it’s not that binary. Exactly. When
Michael Bach 32:20
you look at job interviews, promotions, it’s always a competition. Yeah, someone wins, someone loses. It should always be about the skill. But we have to accept that bias exists, that people make decisions, not based just on who is the best candidate who has exactly the skills that you’re looking for. And there is usually something that pushes someone over the top. So if an organization does, let’s say, you’re hiring a VP of sales, and if if that organization has decided that they want to diversify their customer base, and maybe attract more customers from the Latin X Hispanic communities, then wouldn’t it make sense to hire a VP of sales? Who understands the Latin X Hispanic community? So yes, the VP of Sales should be a person from that background. I had a conversation once with a company, one of my clients got big, big insurance company, and their head of operations in Asia, was a white person who had never lived in Asia, and they wanted to focus on that market. And my if somebody they parachuted in, they didn’t speak the language, they didn’t understand the market. Yeah, you got the wrong person for the job. No disrespect to that person. But you have to, you know, you have to understand the market. This was a bad business decision. And, yes, it was a white man, who was the wrong person for the job. But it could have just as easily been a black woman who was the wrong person for the job, you cannot give someone a job because of the color of their skin or their gender, that is absolutely the wrong decision. That is a bad business decision. You have to choose the right person, but you have to accept that there are some realities that we have to work within. And that if if my goal is to attract more people of color into the job, I’m an ultra I’m gonna focus on people of color.
Maria Ross 34:34
So what do you say to clients you work with? Or audiences that say we want to do that, but those are not the people applying to our jobs? What do you say to that? Because I hear that a lot. It’s like, I don’t know where to find those qualified people. What’s your answer to that?
Michael Bach 34:50
Well, first of all, they’re not hiding. It’s, they’re not no down on an island somewhere being like, oh, no, they can’t see us every year. They want the opportunity. The question Should I ask is why aren’t they applying? So one of a couple things is, is happening. One, they don’t see your organization as a potential employer, keeping in mind that we’re all competing with one another as employers, and there’s the shiny objects of companies like Google and meta and not Twitter anymore. But you know, big organizations that are competing, you’re competing against, and everyone wants to work for those big brands, because they think it’s actually going to be a better job. It’s not. So people are not seeing you as an employer, or people are not seeing themselves within your organization. So they’re opting out of applying to jobs in your organization, because they don’t think that they can be successful. Whether that’s because you don’t have anything on your website about your work and diversity and inclusion, or all of the pictures look like me, a very, very, very handsome, very white man. Emphasis on on handsome, you know, they’re opting out, you have to actively go out and change the perspective, you have to make sure that your website is reflective of the people that you want to hire, not the people who work for you, you have to make sure that you have a focus on diversity and inclusion, that you’re making your environment inclusive. Can I interrupt
Maria Ross 36:22
you right there, because I think that’s another big missing piece is just bringing underrepresented and diverse populations into your organization does not mean the work is done. Because if they get there and they feel highly uncomfortable, they’re going to leave. So what are you doing within the within the structure of the organization and the values of the organization where they continue to feel welcome?
Michael Bach 36:46
There’s a big difference between having diversity and being inclusive. And I use the analogy of a, a garden, when you plant a seed, and the seed doesn’t grow? Is it the seeds fault? Or is it the soils fault? It’s the soil. The seed is the seed, it’s nothing does it grows, it doesn’t grow. But it it it is based off more often than not on the impact of the soil. In this analogy, the seed is the diversity and the inclusion or the the soil is the inclusion. And if the work environment is inclusive, then people won’t stay. I was wearing one client was very proud of this talent attraction program, they had to bring in people of color, because it was a very wide organization. And we looked at their voluntary turnover rate. And they had twice as many people of color going out the back door as they did coming in the front door. So we stopped the program, we focused on the inclusion and their volunteer Terry turnover rate went down. So they could start again, focusing on not just focusing on exclusively hiring people of color, but making sure that they’re hiring a diversity that is reflective of the community that they serve, and the talent population. You know, it is a lot of work. But doing nothing gets nothing like getting a gym membership and not going I promise you nothing’s going to change. I speak from experience. Wish we have to put in the effort. You know, the the ship has left the station. You can try you can ban books, go for it. It’s not going to change anything. You can try to oppress people. As a society, we have a long history of that, look where it’s gotten. I love it.
Maria Ross 38:32
So we’re running short on time. And I know really quickly, what I did want you to share was a couple of highlights because you talk about this in your book, alphabet soup, The Essential Guide to LGBTQ two plus inclusion at work. But let’s give people a little amused Bush, can you help break down some of the definitions for us? When we’re talking about transgender when we’re talking about gay when we’re talking about queer when we’re talking about non binary? Just can you give us a brief rolling glossary here and then I’m going to invite people to check out the book for more to dig deeper into this.
Michael Bach 39:06
Sure. So the first thing that people need to understand is that we use initialisms like LGBTQ two plus or any of them and they’re all fine. Everyone needs to relax them which initialism is the right one. But when we say LGBTQ two plus, we’re talking about two or three distinct things and I’ll correct I’ll explain that. We’re talking about sexuality or sexual orientation, that’s the L, the G and the B. Those are exclusively about sexual orientation. We are talking about gender, which is the T for transgender or trans identified or just trans. That is an umbrella term that covers a lot of different identities. Transgender is a very specific thing, whereas trans or trans identified is an umbrella term that covers all four forms of gender. Diversity. And then we’ve got a Q and A two. Now some people are probably thinking what’s the to stand for it stands for to spirit, which is a term used by some North American indigenous people, First Nations people who are also part of the LG BTQ. community. So the two in the queue can be either a sexual orientation, or gender identity. Now, I mentioned that there’s a third and that sometimes you’ll hear the AI, which stands for intersex, which is a person born with some combination of both male and female reproductive equipment. That’s a terrible word, but you know what I’m saying. And the AI is a sex assignment, not a gender. So we can be talking about sexual orientation, gender, and sex assigned at birth, you can be a combination of those letters. So you can be gay and trans. You can be non binary and a lesbian. You can be intersex and straight. It’s a combination of things. We are not talking about a single community, we are talking about a community of communities. And that’s why I in the book, I refer to it as the LGBTQ plus communities, because it’s a whole bunch of different identities that are stuck together under one Initialism. And it is I honestly do feel like we did a bit of a dirty to people who are not part of the community because we stuck all the letters together and said he figure it out. And we didn’t do our job and explain it to the broader population. And I think we do. You know, I think part of my work now is trying to correct some of that. I
Maria Ross 41:42
love that. I love that. Well, we’re gonna have links to all your books and to all your work to to but I do want to take a left turn and talk about your new book that’s coming out June 19. It’s kind of related but not really about tell us about that book. It
Michael Bach 42:02
is a it’s kind of related is the best way to put it. It is called all about Evie into the oddity. And if you are fans of the show, Ru Paul’s drag race. This is the biography of Evie. Oddly, winner of season 11 of RuPaul drag race. And I’ve had the distinct pleasure of working on this book with Evie. And I’m very excited about it. It’s it’s a total change for me writing wise, because it’s the biography, right? It’s not a business book. And it was a big shift in my writing style and the war and how to pull it together. But it was such a treat. And I am so proud of this book, because I really do think my goal was to create kind of a love letter to the fans, and give them the opportunity to get to know evey in a much deeper way. And I feel like we achieved that.
Maria Ross 42:54
Let’s see, this is how it’s connected. Because when we humanize when we tell stories, and we don’t just refer to these groups as these blanket groups that are inhuman to us, and create these legislations and these policies that impact real people’s lives, books like that. I’m a huge proponent of building your empathy through documentaries, films, music, art, biographies, autobiographies, if you don’t understand this group, read a book like this. Yeah, read their story, get to know them get to that point of empathy, where you might not still quote unquote, agree with that lifestyle. And you know, frankly, those people don’t care. But you can at least get insight for yourself and educate yourself on what this is all about, and how these folks are just like us, and they live like us. And we’re all human beings. And we all just have different stories. So it actually is very related to your work because you shining a light on this one person, yes, a celebrity, but still shining a light into the life and the story of this one person that others might not have that same experience in life. That’s how we build that empathy muscle.
Michael Bach 44:05
I absolutely agree. And it it it definitely is connected it what is about that empathy piece. And you know, we’ve you and I’ve talked about this that it’s so critical to the work in idea. And I really wanted people to understand because Evie was very controversial winner and I really wanted people to understand Evie better as a human being beyond what was shown on television. And it is, I think, a beautiful book so you can pick it up and learn a little more about EB oddly. Yay.
Maria Ross 44:42
And we’ll have a link to that as well in the show notes. But as we wrap up, Michael, you know, again, we’ll have all your links but for folks on the go or who might be on their peloton right now as they’re listening to us. Where’s the best place they can find out more about you?
Michael Bach 44:55
You can go to my website at Michael bach.com Or on the social medias. I am the Michael Bach, the
Maria Ross 45:01
Michael Bach. I love it. Oh
Michael Bach 45:03
my God, the One and Only
Maria Ross 45:04
thanks for your insights. It’s always so wonderful to talk to you. I’m so glad we connected and we were able to do this. Thank you so much for including me. And thank you so much for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard you know what to do. leave a rating and a review and share this episode with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
