Empathy is a superpower, yes, but what about those people you just truly believe are unbearable to work or talk with? I know someone is coming to mind for you. And how much more complicated does it get when you work for that someone, or they work for you?
Today, I am delighted to share my conversation with leadership coach, speaker, and best-selling author Michael Bungay Stanier. Michael and I talked about the difference between leadership and coaching and the role empathy and curiosity play in those skills, why so many leaders misunderstand what coaching means, why rescuers create victims and the importance of learning how to listen. He shares the key to having Keystone Conversations to create a better working relationship. And he shares five questions that will help you build the best possible relationship with almost anyone – and why he says “almost!” Plus, we had a love fest for our mutual publisher, Page Two. Michael is a legend and as kind and generous as they come. Take a listen.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- There are six different leadership styles, and the greatest leaders know how to utilize each of them at the appropriate times.
- If you’re a leader, your job is to help figure out what the right stuff is to work on, and then help get the best people to do their best work working on the stuff that matters.
- Rescuer behavior appears to be empathetic and kind, but it’s actually being nosy and it hurts more than it help others in adult-to-adult relationships.
- You are doing the work of leading when you’re doing the work of self-care and self-reflection.
“I do believe…that every working relationship can be better. If you could make all of them 10-15% better, that would make a difference, because not just your success at work, but your happiness at work is dependent on the quality of your working relationships.”
— Michael Bungay Stanier
Episode References:
- The Empathy Edge podcast: Shasta Nelson: Why Successful Leaders Encourage Work Friendships
- Accountability and Empathy (Are Not Mutually Exclusive) by Ed Batista
- Page Two Publishing
Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!
About Michael Bungay Stanier:
Michael Bungay Stanier is best known for The Coaching Habit, the best-selling coaching book of the century and recognized as a classic. His most recent book, How to Work with (Almost) Anyone, shows how to build the Best Possible Relationship with the key people at work. Michael was a Rhodes Scholar, and was recently awarded the coaching prize by Thinkers50, “the Oscars of Management.”
Connect with Michael Bungay Stanier:
MBS.works: https://www.mbs.works/
X: https://www.twitter.com/mbs_works
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelbungaystanier
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mbs_works-113849977032317
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mbs_works
Book: How to Work with (Almost) Anyone: Five Questions for Building the Best Possible Relationships
Check out a FREE Video example of Michael’s Keystone Conversation at: https://bestpossiblerelationship.com/
Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy
Connect with Maria:
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Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Some people am I right? I mean, empathy is a superpower. Yes, but what about those people you just truly believe are unbearable to work or talk with? I know someone is coming to mind for you. And maybe it’s Norman accounting who I made up for this episode. And how much more complicated does it get when you work for that someone or they work for you? Well, you’re about to hear five questions that will help you work better with almost anyone. Today I’m delighted to share my conversation with leadership coach, speaker and best selling author Michael Bungay Stanier. Michael is best known for the Coaching Habit, the best selling coaching book of the century, and recognized as a classic. His most recent book, how to work with almost anyone shows how to build the best possible relationship with key people at work. Michael was a Rhodes Scholar and was recently awarded the coaching prize by thinker’s 50, the Oscars of Management. Today, Michael and I talked about the difference between leadership and coaching, and the role empathy and curiosity play in those skills. Why so many leaders misunderstand what coaching means, why rescuers create victims, and the importance of learning how to listen, he shares the key to having Keystone conversations to create a better working relationship. And he shares those five questions that will help you build the best possible relationship with almost anyone. And why he says almost, plus, we had a love fest for our mutual publisher, page two. Michael is a legend and as kind and generous as they come take a listen. Welcome to the empathy edge. Michael, I am so excited to have this conversation with you after following your career and your work for a long time, as I mentioned to you earlier based on a client’s recommendation years ago, but welcome to the show to talk about empathy and coaching and relationships and all the things. Really I’m
Michael Bungay Stanier 02:45
happy to be here. I mean, I feel like it’s been a long time brewing. You know, we haven’t we share a publisher page true together. You know, I would say my work is very connected to compassion and empathy and this kind of human connection. So I think this is going to be a really rich conversation for people.
Maria Ross 03:01
I love it. I love it. So before we dive in, we’ve read your bio. But tell us a little bit about your story behind the story. How did you get into this work of coaching and leadership and relationships? And what makes you most passionate about it? Well,
Michael Bungay Stanier 03:15
I would honestly say I’ve kind of stumbled board into it accidentally. It wasn’t I mean, occasionally you meet people have the plans, like I’m in this age, and I’m going to shape a career in this profession. And I’m like, I was never that. But I
Maria Ross 03:29
don’t know who those people. I don’t know what makes them tick. Yeah, I’m
Michael Bungay Stanier 03:32
still going. I don’t know who I’m going to be when I grow up. But I better figure it out sometime soon, because I’m now declining rather than growing. But if you if you believe in the quote, which I love, inspiration is when your past suddenly made sense. There are moments from the past, which in retrospect, I can go all this was grist for the mill. So probably the starting point was your 1718. I did two things I
Maria Ross 03:59
joined not the year 1718. But when you were 17, I’m not that old.
Michael Bungay Stanier 04:05
But when I was 17, or 18. In that kind of age group, I volunteered at a youth crisis telephone line, a suicide hotline sort of thing. And it was my first training in asking questions, not talking, listened, learning how to listen to an answer. Learning how to listen for what not being said, learning that the first answer is not necessarily the only answer or the best answer. And there’s also the first year I did a kind of self help self growth thing. You and I go into an all boys school. And so this year, this touchy feely self help stuff was a bit weird. And it didn’t help at that cost was a course on how to be more spontaneous. But then I told my friends I’m doing a course on how to be more spontaneous. I know they took the mickey out of me for basically months because I’m like, why are you doing a course on spontaneity? I’m like, Sure, it just felt like the thing to do. What’s the
04:59
syllabus for are a course on spontaneity.
Michael Bungay Stanier 05:03
So, kind of seeds were planted there. And then there’s another theme, which is, as I, as I went to university, finally got came out of university. I wasn’t living in England now. And I got my first jobs, I’ll say, No, I, I enjoy working. But I don’t really enjoy organizational life, I don’t really enjoy having a boss. And there’s a way that working life can be a bit diminishing, rather than ennobling. And it is a sense that a big part of what drives me is a kind of core value is like, how do I make? How do I help people be the best version of who they are? And because a lot of my work is about people in work, how do I have organizational life be something where people flourish and grow and learn rather than not. And I think organizational life bends to the humanizing. It’s kind of a blunt statement when you put it like that. But your organization’s are set up with a purpose, and they’re trying to get an outcome, and you’re part of a structure and you’re part of a process. And it’s very easy to lose sight of the humanity of the people you’re working with, because of systems and structures, and efficiencies and KPIs and OKRs, and whatever else, all the things, yeah, all the things, and it was discovering the philosopher Martin Buber. And I don’t know his work deeply. But he has a very powerful model where he says there are just two types of relationships in the world there are I eat relationships, and I thou relationships, and I eat is when you’re in that kind of you objectify the other person a bit, and it’s a bit transactional. And I thou, which are rare, and wonderful, are when you’ll kind of be able to show up more in a fully human like, messy, complicated, glorious, excellent. And I would love there to be more i thou relationships, I’d love there to be more adult to adult relationship, you’d want to use a different piece of jargon a different type of language. And then right, these are all hard, in the best of times, these are hard. So how do I create tools and support people to help with some of that.
Maria Ross 07:15
And that’s how, and that’s how you got here. Now you’re now you’re writing and you’re teaching and you’re coaching, and you’re,
Michael Bungay Stanier 07:19
like stumbling, and you’re placing bets that a bunch of stuff failing and some of the stuff taking off, you know, I I will I had been living in Boston, came up to Toronto in 2001. I literally had a flight out of Boston on 911. So because of all the things and amongst other things, it meant that the job I had lined up, which was as a kind of consultant vanished, and it accelerated me into finally starting my own business. And honestly, when I started my own business, I didn’t know what to do, I could do a whole bunch of things. I was a jack of all trades. So I did a bit of this did a bit of that. And got lucky somebody, you know, nestle in Canada said, can you design a coaching program for me for you know, for them, and it turned out that that was such a that was really helpful, because it turned out as you know, a, I think coaching is a really powerful technology, I think it can unlock the best to people been, I think it can be done really badly. There’s a lot of gum in coaching. And there’s a lot of rudeness and a lot of kind of jazz hands mysterious black box Afghan wearing staff drives me nuts, as particularly doesn’t work in organizational life. It’s it’s not useful to the busy life of the typical busy manager and leader in the work that she’s doing. And thirdly, I thought I had an opinion on how it could be better and how it could be different. And so Jim Collins, the writer of Good to Great has this metaphor of your strategy is a question of firing bullets and firing cannon walls, you fire bullets to figure out what the target is. And these are kind of small experiments or small tests or kind of like a try this out. And designing a coaching program was was a bullet for me is one of the things I was doing. I thought I’d do market research. I was also teaching innovation. I was also starting to do keynote speaking, I was also building a coaching program. But with the coaching program, as I this is actually the thing I’m interested in. And so that’s when you fire the cannon ball as like when you commit to it. And from that grew the Coaching Habit book, which is the book that I’m best known for. And you know, that went through a process of being turned down repeatedly by a publisher who published other books of mine. So I then had this moment where I’m like, Well, what do I do with this? And that’s when I found the path to page two and self published or hybrid published his book. Of course, that then took off and became its own phenomena and its own thing. So you know, it’d be foolish to think that a I really have ever Knowing what the heck I’m doing the year is placing bets and being brave and going. Here’s the stuff that’s taken off. And you know, what never gets talked about in the context. Like, this is like all the stuff I tried that didn’t work,
10:14
per se. Oh,
Michael Bungay Stanier 10:17
yeah, well, that’s sort of stopping. That’s plenty of stories about that. Yeah. So I could fill up the remaining hour and a half with you. Like, here’s all the stuff that I’ve tried that has been mediocre. The interesting
Maria Ross 10:26
thing is I asked this of every guest, and most of them don’t start out with like, from the moment I was eight, I knew that this was the work I was going to do or how I was going to have my impact. And so I think many of us that just have more of a growth mindset, even though we didn’t call it that back then. But an insatiable curiosity and annoying curiosity as some people might say, the inability to accept no as an answer. Yeah. I, we meander, and we find these to us what seemed like perfectly connected related paths, but from the outside looking in might be like, you know, Maria, how did you get from brand strategy to empathy? And I’m like, Well, that should be a straight line. I don’t understand how you don’t get that, you know. So I love that you just further validate my career choices by talking that way. But I want to get to this question. Because you are so well known for the Coaching Habit, we’re going to talk a little bit about your latest book, which is how to work with almost anyone. But I want to talk about first the difference between because to your point this these terms are used interchangeably, leader and coach. So what makes a great leader? What makes a great coach? And are those two one in the same? Or is there a Venn diagram where it overlaps? Talk to me about your viewpoint on that?
Michael Bungay Stanier 11:40
Well, I’d say in a quick summary, great leaders are typically also facile with coaching, and they know when and how to use that as a leadership skill. But there is more to leadership than just coaching. Your Gangrel Goleman wrote an article in 2000 or 2001, in the HBr, Harvard Business Review called leadership that gets results. And he says, Look, there are six different leadership styles in great leaders know how to use all six at the appropriate time, because each one has pros and cons, prizes and punishments. And coaching is one of those six leadership styles. And in fact, it was the least utilized, even though it has this direct impact on engagement and also profitability. So it’s a really powerful leadership skill. Yeah, the government at the time said, do it. People feel it takes too much time, as part of the grist for the walk, I do it. It’s like, you know, let me show you how you can coach fast, you can coach in 10 minutes or less. So the benefit of coaching, is that it you show up with curiosity. And when you show up with curiosity, you’ve got a better chance of figuring out what the real challenges are kind of staying open. And in a place of ambiguity long enough that you get a clearer sight on what the big picture is, and what really matters. And also, when you’re curious, you get a sense of who the other person is across the table from you. So that I thou relationship that we were talking about earlier on. So curiosity is a bit of a leadership superpower. But I think leaders have to do things like see the pictures exist in the future. Oh, look at the stuff that isn’t working. make the hard decisions, take the be able to take the best gas. Understand that, you know, if you’re a CEO or a leader, and you’re getting 60% of your, your decisions, right? You’re actually winning the game. It’s not a ray or 90. It’s like 60%. And you’re like you’re you’re doing great, right? So I do think leadership. And leadership also probably means taking care of yourself, and like self care, stuff. So I do think coaching is necessary, but but not sufficient to be a good leader.
Maria Ross 14:09
I love so much to unpack there. But I love that thinking because that’s the crux of my work as well is that it’s a both and scenario. I think so many leaders get locked into this thing of like, I’m either going to be a leader or a coach, I’m either going to be empathetic or high performing. No, you do them both simultaneously, you hold both of those things to be true at the same time. And that’s why leadership is hard. That’s why hopefully they pay the big bucks. Like there’s a reason why not everybody is an effective leader. But we’ve we’ve sold ourselves ourselves, this bill of goods that because we’re, we’re if someone is good at the work, they’re gonna be good as a leader. Right and and being good at the work and not being a great leader doesn’t mean you’re a failure. Right? It just means that you lacked that capability. And that’s okay.
Michael Bungay Stanier 14:58
Yeah. You know, when we’re teaching this work in organizations, we will we say to people, we’re not training you to be a coach, we’re training you to be more coach like, so we give them a specific behavior. So not an identity, because the behavior is like, can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly. And part of the work we’re trying to do is I want to free people up from this binary of like, being a coach, because I’m like, most people don’t want to be a coach. Most people want to do the job or be a marketer or
Maria Ross 15:36
just do their work. Yeah, exactly. Work done.
Michael Bungay Stanier 15:38
But But the essence is, if you’re a leader, your job is to help figure out what the right stuff is to work on, and then help get the best people to do their best work working on the stuff that matters. So that strategy and culture or strategy, what’s the stuff that matters? Culture? Who are the best people to work on the stuff that matter? And that is hard. All of that is hard. Curiosity, is a powerful contributor to being successful on both of those two things. Well,
Maria Ross 16:13
and that is a perfect lead in to my next question, which is, you know, empathy is what we talk about on the show, but all these different facets of empathy of how you come out emotional intelligence, or compassion, or what have you. And curiosity is the number one trait of empathic people, because clearly, it’s about not just guessing what the other person’s point of view is, it’s about finding out what it is, right? So in your view, and in your work, where have you seen curiosity and empathy show up? In the most successful leaders in the best leaders in your, your your best clients? Can you give us some stories about where maybe someone wasn’t curious and empathetic before? And then when they unlocked those habits, those behaviors, it improve performance for
16:58
them? Yeah, I,
Michael Bungay Stanier 17:01
I would I go to if you’ll be okay with me doing this, you know, I started this company called Box of Crayons. And about four years ago, I stepped away from being the CEO of that gentleman who is as brilliant woman who I recruited from behind the bar of my local pizza, Ria, like one of the best recruiting moments of my entire life, it was like this woman who was doing a PhD and finishing it up and working in a bar part time, or they come and help me out with a little bit of book stuff. And now she is the CEO. It has been interesting watching her shift from being very driven around the strategy, which is like one of the things we need to do to going, how do I also keep thinking about the people and keeping the right people involved? So I think the stories are, that they feel a bit generic, actually, when I think about it, which is, it goes something like this, you become a leader, you freak out, because you’ve now you’re responsible for other people getting work done. You a obsess about what the work is, and how do I get the work done? You become a bottleneck, because you keep trying to do all the work that other people should be doing for you. Because you’re trying to be helpful, you suddenly realize that the only way this works, is if you trust other people. You go through a process of a dark night of the soul about what is trusting other people? And how do I do that? I trust myself, how do I trust other people, right? And you start going really start going well, what are the what are the ways that I build a relationship, where we do the best job we can and trusting each other and supporting each other? And finding that balance that you’ve been talking about Maria, roaches like it, look, I want to be kind and compassionate, and empathetic. And I need to get stuff done. And I need to have accountability. And I need to call it when you’re not when you’ve screwed it up, or you haven’t done it or you’ve made the mistake. And how do I do all of that while maintaining my humanity? Yeah, so for the most part, I’d say most people, as they grow as a leader, what they expand from is our work happens through people. So I’ve got to get better at thinking about or just acknowledging or being more nuanced and empathetic towards the people who I manage. And then there are occasionally some people who are on the other side where the like, I’m all about just wanting people to, to feel loved and liked and appreciated. And the work doesn’t get done in a way that doesn’t work either, which is
Maria Ross 19:47
not empathy, which is why I’m writing the next book, the empathy dilemma because so often the burnout and the stress and the overwhelm happens because you think you’re being an empathetic leader, but what you’re doing is actually something else. It’s people pleasing. It’s yeah, you haven’t gotten your own triggers and emotional regulation in place. All these other things. Yeah, I
Michael Bungay Stanier 20:06
talk about and use the model which I’m, I’m gonna guess you might be familiar with the Cartman Drama Triangle. And you’re basically you know, it’s got its roots in transactional analysis, which gives you adult to adult relationships and parent child relationships, that kind of jargon. For the Drama Triangle says, when things get dysfunctional, there are three roles that play out. There’s the victim, the persecutor, and the rescuer. And when you teach us model, people instantly get it that leads them to get what the three roles are. But what they don’t always get is that the rescuer is as dysfunctional a role as the victim and the persecutor. It sounds better. It’s got better PR. Yeah, but it is just as screwed up. And it is just as bigger contributor to the dysfunction as as the other two roles. And when you ask people, you go, Okay, so here are the three roles that see who identifies with which role 90% of people put their hand up when you go who feels like they’re a rescuer? The a jump in a save it, I solve it, give it to me, let me take it on the help. That’s how I have conflict. That’s all be nice. Yeah. That it is exhausting. And it is frustrating and rescue as create victims and rescue as create persecutors. So it actually is this kind of infecting behavior
21:30
that isn’t, you know, and believe me, I
Michael Bungay Stanier 21:34
have lived this whole story, because this is the stuff I’ve had to unlearn or partially unless
Maria Ross 21:39
we write about what we what we need. Yeah, exactly. So I
Michael Bungay Stanier 21:43
I’m really, I’m just kind of like enthusiastically agreeing with you, Maria, when you’re like when you go. This range of behavior, which you’re like, dice can be rescuer behavior, which is dysfunctional, limiting. Exhausting, creates burnout creates resentment breeds and victims, it is the very opposite of empathy. And it’s the very opposite of an adult to adult relationship. Well, and
Maria Ross 22:13
so much of that stems, which is, the new book is based on five pillars of being an effective and empathetic leader, right, we sometimes we forget the effective and we just focus on the empathetic leader. The first pillar is self awareness. The second one is self care. So the first two pillars are about you digging, and understanding what motivates you what triggers you? And it’s to your point is, Am I doing this? Because I think I’m, I’m saving people, or I’m rescuing them, or I’m being an empathetic boss, or am I doing this because I need control? I’m fearful, I’m afraid of how I’m going to look if this project fails. What is it really about underneath?
Michael Bungay Stanier 22:55
Yeah, I love that. Because I do think that rescue behavior is it’s it’s a very controlling behavior, you’ve got your fingers and everybody’s pies. look like you’re being nice. But really, you’re being nosy? No, but let me ask you a question right. Now. How do you help with that first pillar of self awareness? Because it’d be like, it’d be so much better if everybody was enlightened, so much easier. But you know, we’ve all got blind spots. We’re all flawed. We’re all oblivious to a bunch of things that we do. I’m wondering in your work, how you help deepen that sense of this is actually who I am. And this is actually the impact I have in the world. Yeah,
Maria Ross 23:35
I think the first step is losing the stigma of self awareness as a wasteful nasal gazing exercise, right? So when I write in the new book that’s coming out and even a little bit in the empathy edge. Why I mentioned for example, as an effective leadership practice is practicing presence is you have to get your own house in order. If you’re going to be open and receptive enough to take on another person’s point of view, or perspective, empathy, without defensiveness or fear. So if we actually want the benefits that empathetic leadership provides, it has to start with you and the interior work. So number one is letting go of that stigma. Number two is what? How are you getting that assessment? Are you just aren’t you know, are you doing one modality of just journaling or therapy? Are you doing another modality of taking a self assessment tool like an Enneagram or Myers Briggs or the strengths finders test? And are you getting feedback from other people so that your reality checking whether you are ego tripping or selling yourself short? Yeah. And just being able to use that and I try to make executives feel good about that and leaders feel good about it as again, not a navel gazing exercise, but you’re gathering information so that you can be more effective going forward and I think once they once that And I would love to hear what you have to say in your work. Once they calmed down a little bit about the fact that things like self awareness and self care are not done out of selfishness. They’re done out of service. But you have to, you have to start with that compassion and empathy for yourself, so that you understand yourself enough. And you know that when you fall back, like many leaders have in the post pandemic world, on command and control, that’s out of fear. That’s out of fear of like, I don’t think I can handle this new way of leading this new way of working. And I need to go back to what I know. Can you honestly admit that to yourself? Or do you make excuses like, we all have to be back in the office because that’s the only way we can innovate? We all have to be in the UK in the office? Because how will I know if you guys are getting any work done. So it’s just being able to check yourself on those things. And I think once you let people relax, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, relax into it as like you are doing the work of leading when you work on self care. And when you work on self awareness. Do you see that with your clients as well, and the people that you talk to? Yeah,
Michael Bungay Stanier 26:04
I mean, I think I think navel gazing gets a bad rap. Like, I think like there’s something actually about staring at yourself in the mirror, staring at kind of reflecting on who you are and how you show up. makes all the difference. I mean, this new book of mine how to work with almost anyone. There are these five questions which Bramer conversation with the person you’re trying to build the best possible relationship with? Where you kind of share? A this is how I am how I work best how I work worse,
26:36
you need to know this. So that about yourself before you can share it right? Well, exactly. So
Michael Bungay Stanier 26:42
in some ways, it’s meant to be a business book, but there’s a kind of self help navel gazing book inside that film. Like, if you never have a keystone conversation, but you do the work to be able to answer the five questions, you’re going to be more effective in the workplace, because to your point, you know, empathy without being effective is not a winning strategy.
Maria Ross 27:08
There’s a great leadership consultant named Edie Batista who wrote an article he’s got a quadrant. Are you familiar with it? Yeah. Where it’s empathy. Accountability without empathy is a bootcamp. But empathy without accountability is a daycare. And I love that. I love that I’ve included it in the new book. So I love that you, you keep segwaying. For me, this is great. So I would love for us to talk a little bit about that book, how to work with almost anyone. And out of curiosity, why do you have the almost in parentheses? What’s your philosophy on that?
Michael Bungay Stanier 27:40
Well, why don’t I ask you that? What do you think he almost brings to that dead title?
Maria Ross 27:45
I will I personally think it lets you off the hook of feeling like you have to have an effective relationship with every single human you come in contact with. That’s a lot of pressure. Yeah. And you might feel like there’s something wrong with you. If you can’t get along with everybody. Is that kind of where you’re going with that? So?
Michael Bungay Stanier 28:02
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I think the book title how to work with almost anyone is the best book title I’ve ever come up with. It’s like, it’s so good. Because people love the almost it’s it’s intriguing. Light, and it lads laughter and kind of insight and sparkle to the title. And you know,
Maria Ross 28:20
they’re thinking of someone when they like almost anyone except my in laws or
Michael Bungay Stanier 28:25
Exactly. You know, who you almost is. Yeah, I personally would never believe a book called How to work with anyone. Um, like, either, as soon as I see it, I like that. I’m like, have you met? A, B, and C? Yeah. Nightmares. The psychopathic, the the sociopathic, there’s something. And I’m sure people say the same about me. So I say, Okay, I have too many failed working relationships to come close to making the claim of how to work with anyone. Right. But the idea is, every work, I do believe, you know, even as I say that title that every working relationship can be better. And it
Maria Ross 29:05
can be better. I think that’s the key is it’s it’s a it’s a shift, it’s a delta.
Michael Bungay Stanier 29:11
Exactly. So if you think of the bell curve that probably describes most of our working relationships, you know, a few at one end where they’re like, sparkly and wonderful, a few of the other end where they suck badly, a bunch of them in the middle where they’re like that, okay, they have their ups and their downs. But if you could make all of them 10 to 15% better, that would really make a difference, because not just your success at work, but your happiness at work is really dependent on the quality of your working relationships. Like everybody listening to this conversation right now. Can imagine back to a time Well, maybe it’s happening in real time for them where they’ve had a really tough working relationship. And it has soured everything. No, it is. If there was a single single word It’s like it’s a diminishing experience, you lose a sense of self, you lose your confidence, you lose your trust, you lose your ambition, you kind of play small. And it doesn’t matter if you’re working on the best thing in the world, and you have a manager who sucks, it’s gonna suck as an experience.
Maria Ross 30:18
Yeah, or the inverse that I’ve experienced is I had I worked within a company where the culture was awful. Yeah, it was a grind. But our direct team of five people were amazing to work with. And they made it worth it. Exactly, yeah. And
Michael Bungay Stanier 30:36
most of us leave the quality of our work and relationships to chance, you kind of go, I hope I get my day, a person who somehow creates magic within this otherwise. But somehow, they’ve made it okay. Yeah. And you’re just like, I’m gonna roll the dice. And I hope I get lucky with this team or with this person, or with this client, or with this boss, or with this colleague or with this vendor. And I’m like, you don’t have to just leave it down to luck.
Maria Ross 31:04
Are you familiar with the work of Shasta Nelson, she’s a friend of mine. And I’ve had her on the podcast before. She’s She’s a friendship expert. She’s written several books. But she actually wrote a book called The business of friendship, that is about all the benefits you get from forming friendships at work, and what the definition of friendship at work really means. Especially if you’re at different levels. And it’s fascinating because there’s so much proof like there is for empathy in the workplace, that it boosts productivity, it boosts engagement and boosts retention. All of these things happen, this magic does happen. But it doesn’t magically happen that you create those friendships. And so she also gives advice about how to create those friendships in a way that works for you. So I’m gonna put a link to that episode in our show notes. But yeah, definitely want to Yeah, definitely want to let you know about her work, because it’s exactly that. And so I would love to get into what are those? You know, just give us a little amuse boosh, because we want people to get the book. But what are those five questions? A few of them if you want to tease us with some of them?
Michael Bungay Stanier 32:08
So the core idea is how do I build the best possible relationship with somebody. So again, not a perfect relationship, not every working relationship is going to be a unicorn, burping up a rainbow. You’re like each of your key relationships with a boss or team or colleague or vendor or whoever? The ones that affect your happiness and your success. They have a kind of potential to how do you make them live up to as much potential as that relationship has, and you know, the attributes for me that it should feel safe, it should feel vital, meaning lively for all of life, and it should be repairable. Then you go well, okay, Michael, that sounds good enough. But how do I get that you like where you have a conversation about how you work together? Before you leap into the work itself? That’s to be active conversate, it’s as simple and as difficult as that. So I call it the Keystone conversation in the book because I spoke about how we were before we were
Maria Ross 33:06
before we talked about what we’re doing. Let’s talk about how we’re going to make it happen naturally.
Michael Bungay Stanier 33:11
And that is hard and rare, because the worker was suckers us in like we always put you you
33:18
always let’s get down to business. Right? As he will say, yeah,
Michael Bungay Stanier 33:21
right, because it’s either a crisis or it’s exciting, or because you’ve just had years of going okay, we’re here to have a meeting. Let’s talk about the stuff that we’re having only half an hour. Yeah, right. And so the five questions that I think can shape a keystone conversation, and I’ll give everybody the headlines for them. The first one is the amplify question, which is, what your best, you know, when do you shine and when do you flow? And, you know, this draws on all that kind of positive psychology and appreciative inquiry and positive deviance, all this kind of going, how do we amplify the good rather than worrying about the bad? Like, if I was, Maria, you and I were going to launch a joint podcast together or write a book together with Paige to know it’d be really helpful for me to go Sumeria Kelly, when you’re right, when you’re creating and CO creating with somebody, and you’re at your best what’s going on? What does that look like? What are you great at, you know, what’s the thing that lights you up and puts you into the zone? And let me tell you what true about me, because you and I have just met. And we’ve already made up a whole bunch of stories about each other. You’ve made up stories about me, I’ve made up stories about you. I’m like, I Okay, I figured out Maria, I kind of know what she probably good at what she’s probably not good at. Yeah, and I’m drawing and all these cliches and whatever else stereotypes. And I’m like that you’re some are going to be partially true, but but actually, what if I heard from you what it is that lights you up and makes you in that place where you flow where you shine? Okay, that alone is sustained. Really lovely conversation where you’re like, This is talking about how we what we look like at our best. And then the Nathalia like, so how do we get some of that? Because that sounds pretty great. The second question is kind of a bit more mechanical. It’s like, the steady question, what are your practices? Or what are your preferences? Because many working relationships get damaged just by logistical hiccups, like, you know, it’s like, I hate zoom, and you keep making me come to zoom meetings. Like, I’m not a morning person, and you keep scheduling meetings for 7am.
Maria Ross 35:34
I don’t understand texts that are all emojis. Exactly.
Michael Bungay Stanier 35:38
Exactly. LOL LOL, lol. So, yeah, so a conversation about what are the logistic even mean, you know, the last number of years we’ve started going well, let me tell you what my pronouns are. But it can be as simple as go look, my name, for instance, is Michael Bungay Stanier. So let me tell you about my name briefly. When I got married, my wife and I combined our surnames and it became Bungay Stanier. But it doesn’t have a hyphen. There’s like an invisible hyphen. So it’s not Michael Stan year. And I like just tell you really my middle name, your name, My surname is Bungay Stanier without a hyphen. people mispronounce it all the time. You know, I heard a letter once to Michael banging spaniel. That’s not my name. It’s Bungay Stanier. And by the way, my name is Michael, not Mike. So don’t do this kind of funny thing around going back pulling your mic. I’m like, no, no, no. This is a mic. This is a mic. I speak into it on stage. I’m a Michael. Yeah. So just that mean, so I don’t have somebody unilaterally deciding that they want to call me Mike. And me basically hating them for the rest of their life. Yeah. Because I’m like, you just really started calling me Mike. So that’s just an example. third, and fourth question are the good date and the bad date question. So you can see they’re related. And the Insight is patterns from our past, repeat again and our future. So talk about the patterns from your past. So the good day question is, what can we learn from past successful relationships? I can you like, and when you’re answering that, talk about what the other person did that really made that relationship zing. And then the bad day question is what can you learn from past frustrating relationships. And when you’re answering that, particularly talk about how you contributed to the dysfunction of that working relationship, is that you know, it’s kind of interesting for a bit, they kind of have you bitch and moan about that other person. But actually, what’s really helpful for the other person is to go, this is how I screw relationships up. I do that all the time with the people on my team. Now, let me tell you how I will drive you nuts.
37:50
I read a wide put it out there, they’re gonna figure it out eventually, right?
Michael Bungay Stanier 37:53
And done right. And let me tell you how you manage me when I’m driving you nuts. This is how you, this is how we work around my flaws as a human being because of my flaws and manifold. And I would love them to all go away, but they probably won’t. So you can bet on me screwing up this way somewhere down the line. And when what happens, what
Maria Ross 38:16
I love about that is you give people permission, and you give it levity as well. And having that conversation because now we can go back to remember Michael, you know, You warned me that you were gonna do mansplain me that’s probably not one of your things, but you’re doing it and it’s like, Oh, am I like you can just have an honest conversation without putting up these facades. That’s right.
Michael Bungay Stanier 38:39
And it’s so much easier to do that. At the start. When the relationship when things are going well or just in a camp, you know, you can you can do this with a relationship that’s been ongoing for a while but do it in a calm period. It’s harder to have this conversation when you’re in that stress moment because you have screwed up you’re like that. That’s trickier. Yeah. And then the fifth and final question, the repair question is how will we fix it when things go wrong? And what’s powerful about that is two things. One is it says and just acknowledges the truth, which is it will go wrong.
Maria Ross 39:14
It’s not F right. It’s a win,
Michael Bungay Stanier 39:16
it will go off the rails at some stage, sometimes a big explosive wave more often in a smaller the fabric tears are away. Right. And secondly, it’s a kind of already a shared collective goal to fix it when it goes wrong. So there’s a shared commitment to the future health of the relationship. So
Maria Ross 39:35
as we wrap up, because this is all such great stuff, but what would be a few pieces of advice you would give to a leader listening to this who’s going Yes, I want to build a better relationship with my team. It has been maybe subpar at best so far. Do they go guns blazing into work tomorrow with like, I’ve got five questions that I want to talk about to you or like how would you But how would you encourage someone to, if you’re encouraging them to wade into this? So they don’t shock their team? Yeah. What are some ways they can they can get this moving for themselves?
Michael Bungay Stanier 40:12
So most people when they hear this or they read the book, they go, this sounds really good. I’m not sure I can do it. Again, it feels a bit anxious, kind of a bit odd and makes people feel a bit anxious that away, how do I do that? So one very fast thing people can do if this would be helpful for them is, at best possible relationship.com. There’s a video of me actually conducting a keystone conversation. So the first thing you can do is go What does that even look like? In reality? Well, let me show you a little video, you can just go there, it’s free, just access it at best possible relationship.com. But then, the call to action, if you like that I most hope is that people are brave enough to say this is worth giving it a go. Because at the moment, they’re in there to spend it between their will I do it or will I not do it. And both of those choices have prizes and punishments. If you don’t do it, the prize is that everything carries on, there’s no disruption, there’s no chance of failure, there’s no awkwardness, there’s no awkwardness, the punishment is the dysfunction rolls on the misery rolls on, there may be a low grade misery, but it’s still a misery choosing to be the person who starts it there are there are advantages to that this may boost the relationship, this may reset the relationship, this may enhance your leadership, this may build your your empathy capacity and your empathy muscle. The punishment is that it may not work, you know, there doesn’t always work, it may get rejected, you may feel like an idiot, you probably will be a bit weird and awkward. All of that is true as well. Somebody said to me recently, nobody likes to be the first person to say hello, everybody loves to be greeted. So what I would notice is you going so what are the reasons you’re making up about why it wouldn’t work with that person? And then I would tap in to our Roger Martin’s question. He’s a writer and a strategic thinker. And one of his best questions is what needs to be true for this to happen? And what I love about that as a strategic question is it doesn’t have you in the present going, how will I make this happen? It imagines you haven’t completed it. And then looking back and go what needed to be what needed to happen for this to be true. So I would go or a pick, pick one of your relationships. Sometimes it’s one of the relationships that’s already pretty strong. And you’re like, let me work in a way that feels safe. Some people pick a relationship that’s already so badly broken, that it just can’t get any worse. I have nothing left to lose. So I really go with this relationship. But our relationship
Maria Ross 43:00
like norm and accounting, who you can’t stand every time he walks down the hall, right? Yeah. So you’re like, setting norms and accounting. But yeah, it
Michael Bungay Stanier 43:08
can’t get much worse. But no. So why don’t we go? I know, we have a cup of coffee, I’d love a chat to go look, how do we make the way we’re working just a little bit better for you and for me, because I don’t sure about you. But at the moment I just tension, or at least it’s a bit irritating at times. And you might feel that as well, I suspect you do. I reckon we can, I reckon we could just make it a little bit easier for both of us who you are for a conversation around that.
Maria Ross 43:34
I love that because that is the whole crux of the work that I do around empathy, which is that if you actually try to reach out and have a conversation and make yourself a little bit vulnerable, you will understand someone’s context. And maybe what you thought, or why you thought that person was acting in a certain way. Could be something completely unrelated to the work Ah, you
Michael Bungay Stanier 43:56
just make all of this stuff up. Yeah. As soon as something happens. I mean, in writing this book, I did a lot of research into the people who are really deeply wise about writing about romantic relationships. So people like Esther Perell, and Dan Siegel, and Carrie all and the like. And you’re one of the themes that goes across all of their work is that a ie the relationships that flourish are the ones that get repaired, and be most of a sucker repair. Most of us when something small and damaging happens, we tend to go through that just proves that and you make up all these stories, and you make up all this drama and you try to go over it’s always going to happen, they’re always going to betray me or whatever it might be. And, you know, it kind of comes back to empathy and curiosity again, which was like I actually you probably got it wrong. So being brave enough to reach out, knowing that it doesn’t always work, right. You may your outreach may get rejected be the conversation itself may not really work, but see Will the ones that don’t get rejected and all the relationship conversations that do work will help you build the best possible relationships with many of your key people.
Maria Ross 45:09
I love that what a great, what a great piece of insight to leave us on. Thank you so much, Michael, for your insights today. We really appreciate it such good stuff. I know everyone will check out the book, I will put links in the show notes to all your books and your site and all the great work as well as to best possible relationship.com which has that free video that you mentioned. So thank you for being
Michael Bungay Stanier 45:31
here. Ria Thank you for having me. It was a lovely conversation. And thank
Maria Ross 45:35
you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a colleague or friend. Until next time, remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
