Change is hard, even when it’s a change that makes our lives easier. Today, I speak with Melina Palmer, CEO of The Brainy Business, expert in behavioral economics for organizations around the world, and the author of What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You. We give you a refresher on behavioral economics and how our human brains work – especially the conscious and unconscious parts of our brains. We discuss why change is hard, even when it’s a good change, and how leaders get change massively wrong. Melina will share her framework called “It’s Not About the Cookie” and how it applies to any employee initiative. She also shares her top tip for those who want to have more influence at work.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Change doesn’t need to be hard, you just need to understand what motivates the people you are trying to change – education alone will never be enough.
- Create a culture of feedback and input, solicit that feedback, then actually implement those ideas.
- Be transparent about your change management. The more transparent you are along the way, the more people can trust the process.
“Every conversation and initiative is a change conversation or initiative – you are either in the midst of change, in the wake of change that has already happened, or building up to the next change.”
— Melina Palmer
About Melina Palmer, CEO and author of What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You
Melina Palmer is the founder and CEO of The Brainy Business, which provides behavioral economics consulting to businesses of all sizes from around the world. Her podcast, The Brainy Business: Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy, has downloads in over 170 countries and is used as a resource for teaching applied behavioral economics for many universities and businesses. Melina obtained her master’s in behavioral economics from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology. A proud member of the Global Association of Applied Behavioral Scientists, Melina has contributed research to the Association for Consumer Research, Filene Research Institute, and writes the Behavioral Economics & Business column for Inc Magazine. She teaches applied behavioral economics through the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab. Her first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, was published in May 2021 and was a finalist in two categories of the International Book Awards. Her second book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You, is out as of October 2022.
Connect with Melina Palmer:
The Brainy Business Website: https://www.thebrainybusiness.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thebrainybiz
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melinapalmer/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/thebrainybiz
Instagram: https://instagram.com/thebrainybiz
References Mentioned:
Melina Palmer on The Empathy Edge podcast, Why Your Customers Can’t Tell You What They Want
Special link to get your free chapter of both of Melina’s books: www.thebrainybusiness.com/empathyedge
Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Twitter: @redslice
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Change is hard, even when it’s a change that makes our lives easier. How can you make things better for your employees, customers and other stakeholders while your employees may be on board with the logic of a change, but if they’re resistant, scared or disengaged, you may want to look to behavioral economics and how the brain works to have better results. Especially in this era of the great resignation and quiet quitting. You may need more insights into your employees than they’re even able or willing to tell you. Today I speak with Melina Palmer, CEO of the brainy business expert in behavioral economics for organizations around the world, and the author of what your employees need and can’t tell you. You may remember Molina on our show before talking about her last book, what your customer wants and can’t tell you. And she’s delivering even more insights into how the brain works. So, you can better understand your employees and why your change initiatives will succeed or fail. Today, we give you a refresher on behavioral economics, and how our human brains work, especially the conscious and unconscious parts of our brains. We discuss why change is hard, even when it’s a good change, and how leaders get changed massively wrong. Melina will share her framework called it’s not about the cookie, and how it applies to any employee initiative. And she shares her top tip for those who want to have more influence at work. This is such a gem of an episode. Stay tuned.
Maria Ross 02:55
Welcome back, Melina Palmer to the show. We’re excited to have you again.
Melina Palmer 02:59
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.
Maria Ross 03:01
And we were just talking before the interview about the fact that you wrote this amazing book what your customers want. But can’t tell you and then on the heels of it, have launched this other book, what your employees want and can’t tell you, which is also timely right now with the great resignation, quiet, quitting, improving employee engagement, all the things that we always talk about. So, but before we dive into this, because your approach is so unique, I want to give people a little refresher on what behavioral economics is, because that’s what we talked about on your last episode, which we’ll link to in the show notes about how to determine what your customers want, they can’t tell you so tell us a little bit about what behavioral economics is and how it applies to the employee employer relationship.
Melina Palmer 03:47
Yeah, for sure. And thank you so much for having me a second time delighted to be here. So, behavioral economics is the you know, the tagline for my podcast is the psychology understanding the psychology of why people buy, I have adapted that a bit as you know, the podcast is four and a half years old now. So, there’s some adaptation in that, and that I’m saying, understanding the psychology of why people act, choose, change and buy because there’s, you know, a little bit more nuance to that. But essentially, even though we all have brains, we don’t intuitively understand how they work. And the way that we think they do or should doesn’t typically line up. And so, you had a problem with traditional economics in that it assumed logical people making rational choices and absolutely everything that they do. And that’s not really the world we live in which we know because we are all human where we have intentions to do something we know what we should do. But we ended up doing something else, of course. And we can’t usually explain why and even you know, on the customer side of things, you know, you do surveys and people We’ll say, of course, I would buy the toothpaste if it had baking soda in it. So, you spend a lot of money to put baking soda in the toothpaste and nobody buys it. It’s not that they’re lying intentionally in general. But they just really don’t know what they would do or why they buy things. And that’s because of this sort of misunderstanding in the way that our brains process information. So, in the case of change management, working with teams within organizations, you get a lot of times where people say should. And that’s, you know, the brainy business we say, should as a four letter word. In that anytime you say, well, people should just get it, people should be on board with this thing, it should be easy, they should be able to find that information that shouldn’t matter. It does. All those little things matter and can be so much more impactful than we realize, which can be a negative, if we don’t want to address it, right? If we just look at it at this pile of stuff that’s working against us, and we don’t want to deal with that’s a problem. But on the flip side to say, hey, if we work on some of these little simple things, it can snowball in a way that’s really positive very quickly, without having to do huge expensive change initiatives, we can look at change differently. And it can help us to have better conversations and impact at work.
Maria Ross 06:22
I love this, because as we were talking about early in my career, once upon a time, I was a change management consultant with one of the big six at the time, the big six, I don’t know how many big ones there are now. But and that was exactly our role was we were the people side of change. So, we would come alongside the programmers and the tech teams who were implementing new technology, and address the fact that you can’t just flip a switch and people’s behaviors will change just because you put in this fancy new system. And the fact that you needed a communication plan to go with it, you needed a training plan to go with it, this wasn’t going to be an overnight process to get people to drastically change their jobs. One, one project I had, we were actually teaching factory plant workers. First, we had to teach them windows. And then we had to teach them the software, right? So, that’s the thing we will do, they’ll just get it it’s more intuitive da da da da, they just click these icons. They don’t know what click an icon means at that point in time. So, it’s it’s all of these things you have to factor in to actually make a change successful. And then, you know, often the whole reason this group popped up within the firm that I worked for, was because they were implementing these amazing technology solutions. And they were falling flat on their faces within these organizations. And they didn’t know why. And so, it’s exactly you know, now it’s a field of study, and people understand the brain better and all that great stuff. So, I’m really heartened to see that we’ve progressed, because this was very, very long ago. So, tell us quickly, in your opinion, why is it that change is hard? It seems that seems like a dumb question. But I think there’s merit to dissecting it. Why is change hard, even if it’s a change, that people would welcome?
Melina Palmer 08:07
Yeah, it’s a funny thing in that change doesn’t have to be hard. What is hard is when we try to force change in the way that again, we think it should happen, instead of working with rules of the brain that already exists, to help us kind of looking at swimming downstream instead of upstream, right. So, the process can be much easier if we work with the rules that already exist, which is where behavioral economics comes in understanding how the brain works. So, taking a step back from that, for everyone who hasn’t yet listened to that last time I was on that first episode would be to talk about how the brain works. So, if you were to think about your your brain as a person riding an elephant, and this is an analogy from a psychologist at NYU that I really liked, I think it just helps make this very visual. So, your brain is a person riding an elephant, you have the logical conscious writer knows where it wants to go, has a plan can see 10 steps ahead and is ready to go, right? The elephant may want to go in a different direction, or to sit down and not go anywhere, or just stop in general, and you can’t push or pull or logic it into going where you want it to go. Because it doesn’t speak the same language as you, but you can understand what motivates it and help to nudge it along to keep it on the path, right because you as the writer can see that. So, when we’re planning stuff within our businesses, we tend to think that our writer is communicating to other writers and we’re trying to appeal to them. What you really need to be doing is looking at what’s going to motivate the elephant because if you can lead the elephant in the right direction, then the writer will be able to explain why it was all such a great idea and they knew it all along and that’s where they were We’re going to be going and they feel really good about it. So, understanding that piece is really important when we think about communicating change and making it easier. And an example I love to give here is one of a company called the Literie. And they are an organization that is helping people to throw away and properly sort their garbage every time that they throw anything away, which is a very important thing that should be happening. And if I was to tell you listener, that your new job is that you have to be taking this on. And until you’ve gotten every single person to properly throw away and sort their garbage every single time, you can’t do anything else. You probably feel like your children’s children’s children’s children are going to be doomed, you know, to this task, because it’s something that people have been trying to change for such a long time and it’s nearly impossible. The problem is, if you sit down and take on that task, you probably think about it as Okay, people just don’t know what goes in what been the problem is they’re uninformed, they don’t realize if they knew they would change their behavior. So, we need a brochure or a video, or maybe they aren’t empathizing enough. So, we need one more commercial with turtles that have straws in their noses, or whatever it is to talk about the facts. And then they’ll be passionate about it just like I am. But that doesn’t work we know that doesn’t work with the literary has done is disassociated the understanding of why you think it’s important, with the actual action you need someone to take, which is just to sort the thing, right? You need it to go in the recycling, that’s all you really need. And whether they care about it, about the planet is secondary in the task, as much as we would love for people to care. So, they’ve turned litter into lottery tickets, hence the name of the lottery. So, they have smart garbage cans, when you put the bottle in the recycling, it’ll say it’ll give you a notification on your phone and say, hey, Molina, great job, you sorted that properly, you’ve been entered into the lottery. And if you put something in the wrong bin, or you throw in a rock or something that’s not supposed to be in there, then it says, nice try, do this next time and you could be entered in, they tested in movie theaters, and had 100% compliance across 30 days for different theaters in Sweden. And just everybody knew what to do, they just needed to be motivated to do it. So, working with those rules, makes it a lot easier to encourage change in a way that if you again, try to educate or tell people what they’re doing wrong, or or force them, or it’s makes it really, really hard. But it doesn’t have to be.
Maria Ross 12:41
Yeah, and I think that’s where the whole gamification of habits comes in, we see it in different apps that help you, you know, quit smoking or with nutrition, you know, they make it a game. So, it’s it’s working with the psychology of people versus just like you said, just informing them, if you inform them, they’ll do the right thing. And I often say, you know, to my brand clients, that you know, people will even if you’re selling b2b People buy based on emotion, and often they justify it with logic versus the other. We think we’re working the other way around, but we often don’t. And so I love this idea of again, working with the brain instead of against it. And using that as a mechanism in our own organizations to impact change. So, tell us why you think businesses have changed wrong. So, we’re, you know, and let’s get specific here. What kinds of change initiatives are we talking about? It could be anything from a restructuring to a new training development program, to a new incentive plan to I don’t know, a new organizational structure? You know, you tell us what, where are they getting it wrong? Is it one specific type of change, they’re getting wrong? Or it doesn’t really matter? Name your, you know, pick your favorite flavor of change?
Melina Palmer 13:55
Yeah, yes. So, it’s actually in just the thought that changes only big stuff like that. And that’s all that matters. So, the thing that you think you need an initiative for is not the only change that is impacting the brain of a person. So, when we were talking about, you know, smoking, or people working in factories, and all these different things that are repetitive types of jobs, our brains are running on habit and predictability and status quo, that elephant is processing millions of bits of information per second and being able to say, okay, I know how to do this. I know how to do that. I know how to do this. It wants to hold on to as much as possible and it does that with the status quo predictability and habits of how and knowing okay, I get treats. This way. I like going over there by that’s bad. Don’t touch that stove. Whatever, right? There are things that it knows to do when it doesn’t want to give up control to that conscious brain at any time that we have those habits up ended. In some way, we end up having to move stuff into that conscious area of our processing, which makes it so it’s slower and more difficult. You know, many of us had this process problem in the early days of the pandemic, where we would say, hey, I used to be getting up early, and I would be commuting and I went to the gym, and then I would be at work all day. And I would go out to lunch, and then I would go out for drinks afterwards. And, and, and, and was totally fine. Now it’s two o’clock, and I’m still in my pajamas. But I feel exhausted. And I didn’t even do anything, right? Why am I so tired. And it’s because a lot of those habits, even where you place your coffee mug, and where you walk to go to get a glass of water, or whatever it is, that all those habits used to be in that subconscious quick processing. And when they get moved, it’s difficult on the brain, and it makes it so bigger decisions have to be kind of run by that subconscious, elephant. And so it again, the problem is relies on the status quo. So, when you’re trying to change things, it feels very difficult, and is going to want to resist because it likes that status quo. So, if you’re trying to implement even a lot of little changes, like moving people’s desks are saying that they have to be using a different way that they send their emails or just even clicking this one button differently than what they’ve done. Or training a new person on the team. Things that seem like they shouldn’t be important. There’s construction outside of the building, and they have to take a slightly different route to work. Those can all be impacting the brain of that person throughout the day, in a way that will impact their ability to be receptive to change, even though they don’t realize it. So, thinking about change only as the big stuff is the problem, you want to be looking at the micro moments and trying to be collecting snowflakes, to create a snowball that’s going to help you roll down that hill of change, instead of letting all those small moments build up into this terrible tundra of nightmares. It’s making change way too hard.
Maria Ross 17:16
What a great analogy. And as someone who you know, suffered a brain injury years ago, I totally understand this concept of like your conscious brain and your unconscious brain because part of my rehab with my brain injury was was not relearning so much as stuff that I used to do on autopilot, I had to exert more energy into doing and it exhausted me faster. And that’s why when you have a brain injury, or someone you know, who might have a stroke, they get more fatigued more easily. And it’s because their brain is working on overdrive was before they were able to sort of be on autopilot. So, you know, we need to remember that that applies whether you’ve had a brain injury or not, because it’s how the brain works. And so, when when you’re dealing with that in an organization, and you’re trying to implement a lot, let’s say you are trying to implement a larger transformational change, are you saying that it’s wiser to break it down into the smaller micro movements and helping people through those micro movements, that’s going to help move the initiative forward?
Melina Palmer 18:15
Yes. And really, the point that I make, one of the points in the book is that every conversation and initiative is a change conversation or a change initiative, you are either in the midst of change, you are in the wake of change that has already happened, or you’re building up to the next change, right. So, you’re and very likely in some varying state of all of those things all the time, because there’s constantly change going on. And so, if you can focus on doing less things that are more of the right things, and being more thoughtful about the way that you communicate, you can reduce the amount of communication that is being sent and make it so that the brain is less stressed of the people on the team. And not that we’re constantly running around. Because time pressure of deadlines, even if they’re self-imposed, creates a stress that makes it so it’s more difficult to get out of that subconscious status quo. So, for everyone, myself included many, many, many times who has said in the past, I work better under a deadline. I’m more creative, I get so much done. You don’t. Alright, I need to hear this. I know that I’m sorry to tell you, it feels like you’re being much more productive because you have to commit to something in that moment to move forward. But studies have shown that you are much less creative because you’re relying on that status quo when you don’t have the time to be able to evaluate more. So, you’re just moving forward with that same template that you have used every time even though you had grand ideas of coming up with a new report or whatever it happens to be right when you had all the time in the world, you’ve got other, there’ll be a better process for this. And I could do that and whatever. And then you realize, oh, man, I need that report tomorrow. I’m just going to do this this time. And I’m going to grab this and do this and do that do this. But you’re stuck with what you used to do. And if someone said, oh, I need you to do this other thing. Like, no, I can’t
Maria Ross 20:27
Yeah, no more, I can’t do I can’t do it. So, tell us a little bit about this framework you call, it’s not about the cookie. What does that mean?
Melina Palmer 20:35
Yes. So this is actually I use the same framework for pricing strategy as I do for change management. Because even if you aren’t having any money, exchanging hands, you need someone to buy in on whatever idea or initiative you’re selling.
Maria Ross 20:52
Emotionally or psychologically, you need them to buy in, whether it’s their attention, or their time, or a change in their behavior.
Melina Palmer 20:58
Right, or being passionate about the project instead of working against it either. Right? Or unintentionally, right? So, to explain this analogy, I’ll have you imagine we’re having a conversation walking down the street, maybe we’re talking about change. So, we’re just chatting talking about the brain or whatever it is great conversation. And then all of a sudden, there’s this amazing scent that comes wafting down the street, it’s sweet, a little salty, there’s a hint of chocolate in there. And we realize a chocolate chip cookie are baking nearby. And it’s amazing. We’re still now talking to each other. But we’re more like kind of trying to find the source of the center, we’re like cartoon characters with arises drawing us down the street, right? So, then we get in front of the store, and we see there’s a line and we go stand in it. And they say, oh, today only it’s buy three, get one free. And here’s a free sample. And before we know it, we walk out of there each eating a cookie, and with one in a bag in hand, you know for later. So, that’s one scenario. Second scenario, same conversation, walking down the street, someone comes up and shoves a coupon in our faces and says, hey, hey, today only I have this special, you know, if you buy for cookies, you only have to pay for three of them. And I’ve got samples go? Guy, get out of here, right? We don’t want that. Can you tell we’re having a conversation. Now we’re talking about bad sales experiences and how terrible they are. And by the time we see the line, and are pitying those people who have lower standards than us, we’re writing Yelp reviews about how bad their practices are, how pushy they are, and we would never buy from them. Right. So, in the first scenario, cookies could have been $3 Each, maybe they were a quarter in the second one, it doesn’t matter, because it’s not about the price. And it’s not about the cookie, right? Even if they were the same cookie, the same pricing are off in either scenario, we were definitely buying in the first one, assuming they’re not like hundred bucks or something in a cookie. And we’re definitely not buying in the second one, right. So, in this case, it’s not about the cookie, it’s not about the change. It’s not it’s about all the stuff that happens before that initiative is presented matters more than the change itself. And what you’ll notice when you go through this in the book, because obviously this framework is a big part of it. All the same things happen all the same concepts and levers are pulled, but they’re in an opposite order. And so, it’s not just understanding the concepts, but how they are presented. And that priming, that sense of the cookies that draws that subconscious in, which doesn’t just have to be sent. But it is very important and can either attract or repel immediately and make your change initiative. Just totally off the rails.
Maria Ross 23:41
Okay, so, I love this because this is all about just the intangibles that surround a change initiative, where on paper, it looks like why wouldn’t everybody love this? Right? We’re, we’re going to afford a work week. Why doesn’t everyone love this? Right? And or whatever it is, whatever the change initiative is. And I think that’s so important, because you can leave a bad taste in people’s mouths from the beginning. We’re now they’re primed to see the negative in whatever decisions happen going forward than they are to see the positive. Is that kind of what you’re getting at?
Melina Palmer 24:14
Yeah, absolutely. And the same change presented in two different ways. So, if that four day workweek, you know, manager comes in and goes, Hey, everybody, I, I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this. I know you’re not gonna like this. Because I know change is hard. You’re not gonna like to shift things over. We’re switching to four days a week, and you know, I’m just going to need everyone to get on board with it. I know you’re gonna hate it, but we got to do it. Right. Everybody’s like, oh, I guess this is bad, right?
Maria Ross 24:43
Yeah. Everything about your body language is telling us this is bad,
Melina Palmer 24:47
Right. And we’re a herding species. And so even if we thought that we would have liked the thing, go, Well, I guess everybody doesn’t. Like this is a bad thing. So, we’re now we’re focusing on what’s bad about it. And why this isn’t going to be a good thing for us how it’s going to be difficult. We’ve been primed in this way. Whereas if that’s presented more in a way of, and you know, that first person’s like, oh, man, you’re gonna hate it, right? But if we come in and say, Hey, like great news, we have this opportunity that we’re able to convert over to a four day work week, here are some of the ways that we’re able to make this work. And perhaps, you know, just in the way this is presented, depends if people are able to provide feedback, and we want to make sure that we only ask for feedback if it can actually be implemented. So, to say, hey, we’re curious what you all think of a four-day workweek. And you think, like you were saying, I’m sure because our brains like to think they’re better, smarter faster than everyone else. So, we’re sure everyone’s going to like the thing that we like. And I talked about all these biases in the book as to why we’re built out this way. We present it thinking they’re gonna love it. And then you think I’m gonna give them an opportunity to feel like they’re providing feedback. And then I’m going to like, why write in on my white horse and tell them that they get a four-day work week? So, I’m sure that’s what they’re going to ask for. And you present it and they say, man, it would be great if we could all work five hours a day, seven days a week, instead of five days. And like, I hate a four-day work week. Wow. Yeah, but we’ve already built out the program. Right, like writing for it. And they all say, well, we hate this. I have friends that have that. It’s terrible. I would never want it. Thanks for asking us because we will all rebel and hate that thing. And you’re like, Oops, dun, dun, dun, exactly.
Maria Ross 26:34
Well, this brings up a great question that I had for you, which was what is the best way to solicit employee input? Because I know part of the challenge with that is number one, the actual solicitation of the input and the best modality in which to gather it one on one interviews, a anonymous survey, small focus groups, whatever it is, but also, you know, when you’re scared that it’s going to derail the initiative, because you’re going to have so many competing points of view, you’re never going to be able to please everybody, right? So. So what is the best way to solicit that kind of feedback from employees for change, especially knowing as you know, that even if you ask them, they may not tell you how they will actually respond in the moment. And they might tell you a false positive or a false negative when you’re gathering the research and the input. And then when you put the change into effect, their reaction is going to be very different. So that’s sort of the first part of that. And then if, as you answer this, you can talk about the important role of empathy in gathering that input and, and implementing that change.
Melina Palmer 27:39
Yeah. So, there’s a really great concept in behavioral science called the IKEA effect, in that we like and prefer things that we had some effort in building ourselves, we think they’re better than things that other people have built.
Maria Ross 27:54
Even after we’ve spent seven hours putting it together,
Melina Palmer 27:57
especially when we
Maria Ross 27:59
like, I’m never getting rid of those shelves,
Melina Palmer 28:01
My wonky shelf is way better than anything that you’ve created. Right, exactly. And so, this is all to where when we try to sell a house or something that we’ve put work into, and you think it’s amazing compared to what anyone else would have made, right? Because you have that labor of love tied to it. So, in the case of a business, the most important thing would be to be gathering feedback, kind of having this culture of input would be ideal, right? So, you’re you have some sort of a mechanism where people can be easily providing feedback that they can then see is valued. And not that every idea is always implemented every time. But when they have something that they think, oh, you know, I should recommend this thing, there’s a way to do that it goes somewhere, whether that’s anonymous or otherwise, I worked at an organization once where any suggestion you had that you could put in if it ended up saving the organization money, because in that case, you know, it was a streamlining, reducing expenses sort of initiative. If it got implemented, you got paid out different amounts. And some I think it was like 200 bucks, if there was something which, you know, as a teller or whatever role you’re in, you know, that could be really significant. For something I got a had a recommendation of not throwing away receipts where there was a process thing, that IT audit, it printed the receipt and you had people say, Oh, do you want your receipt? And then everyone says no, and they’re like throwing it away? Before you even answer and saying, Well, is there a button somewhere that we can have the default be to not print and you know, because we’re still wasting money. And so it was worth the payout, but I was able to just submit that at any time. So, that’s ideal, right? Where you can be submitting stuff all the time in varying opportunities. That’s not realistic at every single organization. I get that. So, one, don’t ask for fee back if you can’t implement it, so, if you’re too far gone, you know, find something else you can ask for feedback on but don’t ask, like we said in that four-day work week, it’s just setting yourself up to fail and for people to hate it.
Maria Ross 30:11
Right. The only thing worse than not asking for feedback is asking for feedback and then ignoring it completely, right?
Melina Palmer 30:19
So, when you can, though, except being able to make it visible, that you’re implementing something that was recommended by someone on the team somewhere, is very valuable. So, if you have an intranet, and you’re able to say, hey, Maria, in XYZ department submitted this, and we’re moving forward with it, because it’s saving the company, you know, 1% on every order. Thank you so much, Maria, you’re amazing. Like, yay, right? So, people get to see that when ideas are submitted, something is done with them, even if there’s didn’t make it through. And it’s varying levels, right. So, that’s something that’s very valuable. As far as getting a lot of buy in, without everyone then fighting over their idea not being chosen, I highly recommend, and I do this as a training for lots of organizations. It’s one of my favorite things. It’s called question storming. So, instead of brainstorming, where we have a very focused, we think we know what the problem is. And we’re coming up with solutions. We instead start with a statement that we attack with questions, there’s a different tie in in the brain to asking questions where we don’t have the same sort of ownership in a way that’s both valuable in presenting new ideas. People don’t like to come up with ideas in in brainstorming, because I might get saddled with that project. I don’t want to look stupid, you know, whereas if you just ask a question, you don’t have the same problem. Being part of that questioning process, we can all kind of embody the questions as they get generated, it helps to be part of a full process. And even if my question doesn’t end up being part of this initiative, it’s it’s a research piece that helped us all make our way that can be really valuable without getting people really pigeon holed on why their ideas, the best idea, and why wouldn’t everyone move forward with my idea? Sorry, no problem. And then just to answer the last piece, as far as the way you collect information, it is going to vary based on the type of organization, the type of team that you have, the way that you’re able to be implementing things, how large the projects are, you know, when you can be doing, actually asking questions, having as many avenues as possible, that are active as often as possible, I would say is probably the best strategy. But if you can only do one, and you know, that’s what you have, just make it the best version that it can be, and make it as visible as it can be when you’re using it to help encourage others to then continue to use that and it will grow and be more valuable over time.
Maria Ross 32:59
So, I hear you saying a couple different things there. If I can unpack that for a little bit number one, it’s it’s before you even have change initiatives, which we’ve already said, you’re always going to have, you’re either going to be at the beginning of a change, or in the change or dealing in the wake of the change is to create a culture of feedback to create a culture of input, where input is consistently and constantly solicited. And then something is done with those ideas. And so, then it’s not so shocking of like, all of a sudden, we have this company wide survey, something’s something’s up, right, like now they’re asking us our opinion, they haven’t asked us our opinion in three years, like, so. I love that idea of like priming the pump, so to speak, of, of creating that culture of input, even if it’s something, you know, relatively insignificant, almost starting there sounds like Okay, now we get that this is what management does. This is what the leadership team does. They’re constantly trying to get our opinion, whether it’s about where we should have our, you know, company holiday party, or how do we structure job titles, like, whatever, whatever it is. But then I also hear you saying, and this was the thing I learned as a change management consultant. The change doesn’t start at the implementation, the thinking and the communication has to start way before that. So that when the change is ready to be unveiled, implemented, you know, decided upon, it’s it’s not so shocking to people systems, like they feel like they have been part of the process. And that’s why, you know, when we used to develop communication plans, it didn’t start at the day the new system was implemented, it started months before that, maybe it was, you know, addressing the issue that the new system was supposed to solve, and just acknowledging that for people and then you know, wouldn’t it be great if and then also communications coming from different levels of the organization at different times. So can you speak a little bit to maybe like grading on a scale of A through F? How well organizations do with that Part of it of actually realizing that the change happens way before it actually gets implemented.
Melina Palmer 35:05
Yeah, I think like you said, there are plenty of organizations that are doing a better job of being able to present information earlier. But it’s important just to note, again, that it’s not that you spent months or sometimes years planning a change behind closed doors, and then we like to say, but we worked out all the kinks. So just like, there’s, it’s,
Maria Ross 35:31
We got it, we got it, it’s fine. We just put everything just trust us. Yeah, we’ve got right.
Melina Palmer 35:36
No, we didn’t ask you what you want in this, which is impacting your job directly. And not mine, but I’m smarter than you. So take it right. Not good. That’s not gonna go over super well. But also you don’t want if you ever have it be that, you know, tell team is like a single checklist item on your to do list. You are definitely not putting enough effort.
Maria Ross 36:01
You know, you’re not implementing change. Well, when yeah, it is just one task on your task list. Like, oh, did I tell the team this is happening? Great. Yeah.
Melina Palmer 36:10
Yeah. And so with that, and I have a setup in the in the book, where I’m talking through kind of the specifically in how you can use that cookie strategy to then be presenting information and looking at, say, like, you were you were, you mentioned, you know, if you were to ask, like say, hey, they’re asking for our opinion, and they haven’t done this in three years, what’s up, right, that curiosity, water cooler chat is going to be problematic for you, right, and that you can’t stop that. So being able to communicate more openly, be aware that if this is the first time that you have a meeting that is exclamation point required, and nothing else is or everything else is visible on your calendar, except for this one thing, or you’re telling people hey, I need you to sign this NDA before you come to this meeting next week. And I’m not going to tell you anything else. Know that that’s gonna be a problem. That’s really bad priming. I talked about that as burnt popcorn, right, right, are burning the popcorn. We’ve all been in the office where someone burns a bag of popcorn and no work gets done for hours.
Maria Ross 37:16
Because everyone’s gossiping and trying to figure it out. And they’re always imagining the worst-case scenario in their heads. I mean, this is the thing, you know, from a communication planning perspective from, from a, from a leadership perspective, there’s always that that does that tendency of leaders to want to hide information because they think that that’s the best thing for the the morale or the performance of the group. And it always backfires. Like, people know, something is up.
Melina Palmer 37:46
Like, yeah, you’re not as sneaky as you.
Maria Ross 37:48
Think you are. And I’ve seen it time and time again, with, you know, where an executive was leaving. And they’re like, well, let’s wait like a month before we tell the group that this is happening, people know. So, it’s better to be transparent. And I, you know, apply that transparency to change management as well, that, you know, the more transparent you are along the way, the more not, I don’t want to say accepting because we still need to, you know, we still need to address the elephant in the change, but the more people at least can trust the process.
Melina Palmer 38:19
Yeah, in the cookie framework. There are multiple concepts of behavioral economics in there, we have priming, which is that sense of the cookies, we have framing how we say things matters more than what we’re saying, you have herding and social proof, like the line. And then one thing we have there also is reciprocity. In the case of the cookies, it’s the free sample, a little gift that helps people to take a little bit more and when we’re selling things, you know, that’s a lead magnet podcasts that are free, whatever that we’re giving out. In the case of change, I do talk about this as transparency, authenticity, openness, giving people an opportunity to be part of the process, that is all a gift that you’re giving. And it needs to be made visible to show that they’re being brought in, not in a weirdly over the top way. But being able to say, you know, hey, here’s a little bit of what’s coming i I’m able to share X, Y, and Z, you know, share when you can be able to say I’m trusting you with this information, because I really value you as a member of the team and this there are a lot of tips in the book as far as not, you don’t want to be pitting team members against each other and say I really value you but I’m not telling Suzy so. Yeah, no,
Maria Ross 39:37
Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh. Well, and it’s also of this concept of of like you were talking about about the transparency and giving people a taste, but also just being honest there. You might not have every answer to every question. And it’s okay to report in this is this is what drives me crazy about organizations that don’t give status updates and they say the reason is we don’t know yet.
Melina Palmer 40:02
The no update update is no update up valuable.
Maria Ross 40:05
Exactly. Just say like, we know you’re wondering about X, we’re still working on it, then at least they know that it’s it’s being thought through. And it’s being addressed at some point.
Melina Palmer 40:15
Yeah, that’s COVID was such a point where we were able to see this, right, where organizations weren’t posting anything for days, and people are freaking out. They don’t know, am I going to be at home? Do I have to come in here? What’s the policy? What if I get sick? What if my kids get sick? What if? What if? What if, and they’re not even doing anything? Right? Right? They’re doing lots of things, but it’s not made visible. And that while curiosity is very valuable, in being able to create new programs, it is something that can really go awry and run amok, if we don’t get little bits along the way, to being able to have the, hey, today we met about this, we talked about that, you know, commit to having the update go out at 3pm Every day, saying something, you know, tomorrow, we’re gonna meet about this thing, whatever, right? Yeah, that makes a big,
Maria Ross 41:07
And that’s where I feel empathy comes in, because you’re imagining what the other person might be thinking and feeling and that they might that it’s not just like, simple curiosity, it’s turning into anxiety, right? So you know, I know, I might not know this answer till the end of the week. But these people are on pins and needles waiting to figure out what’s going on. It’s empathetic of me to realize that and send out a communication and say, Hey, I know y’all are, you know, worried about this? Hang tight, I should have more answers on Friday, it’s okay to say you don’t have the answer right now. But to address the feelings of the people in your organization of your employees, because that’s what they want, they want to make sure that you know, they’re still there, and that they matter and that they are valued. So, in the time we have left, I’d love for you to give one top tip for managers, or those who want to have more influence at work, whether they’re dealing with a change initiative or not, given you know, this whole concept of behavioral economics and understanding how the brain works, what’s one great tip for having more influence at work with your employees or with your colleagues?
Melina Palmer 42:11
Yeah, so my top tip is always to be thoughtful. And that’s how I end every episode of the podcast. It’s my email signature. And really in this way, it’s it’s twofold. So, one is to be thoughtful of your own actions I have. Part one of the book, as we’re moving our way through has two chapters. At the end, it says change is all about you. And it has nothing to do with you. Right. So, there’s the one side of how I’m presenting information, what my bias is doing, how that’s impacting decisions. And all these aspects. We didn’t even really talk about bias, but that’s a huge part of the book. And then the second piece of being thoughtful is to, like you said, empathize with that end user. And knowing that you can’t just ask them what they’re going to want. But there are ways that you can be bringing them in and say, I wonder why this happened this way, instead of just saying they’re difficult, you know, I’m gonna say, how might we be able to bring them in on this process? What what do they care about? What’s the value to that person? How might I learn from them? How can we both be right? You know, all these opportunities to expand your own approach to change and the way you present it, and the way that you communicate with others and to encourage them to be more receptive. being thoughtful is a really easy first tip to just question a little bit more.
Maria Ross 43:35
Absolutely. And that that is that is empathy. One on one right there is to just put yourself in the other person’s shoes and think about what might be going on for them, and then acting with compassion accordingly. So, thank you so much. Melina, for joining us today. Again, folks. The name of the book is what your employee wants and can’t tell you, and or what your employees need and can’t tell you and it’ll it’s going to be out now. So, check that out at all the places where you can get books, we’ll have all your links in the show notes. And Melina also is giving us a special URL, the brainy business.com/empathy edge again, it’ll be in the show notes. You can go there to get a free chapter of either of her books, or both of her books. So just real quick for people on the go. Where’s the best place? They can find out more about you?
Melina Palmer 44:21
Yeah, so the brainy business.com is a really easy place the podcast books connecting for speaking and anything is all there. And you can find me on most all the socials as the brainy biz (B-I-Z).
Maria Ross 44:33
Love it. Thank you so much for your insights today. Melina it’s always a pleasure to talk to you.
Melina Palmer 44:37
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Maria Ross 44:39
And thanks everyone, again for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge. If you liked the podcast, remember to please share it with friends and colleagues. Don’t forget to rate and review. We love your feedback and we will do something with it. And in the meantime, until next episode, and our next wonderful guest. Please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
