How does trauma impact the workplace and organizational performance? If you’re a human being, then yes, trauma impacts you and your team. Trauma doesn’t care whether you’re at work or not. Everyone experiences trauma differently in their brain and body. The solution is to create a safe and trusting environment for leaders to get curious about their people and for someone in distress to be able to get support. The important thing to remember is that this isn’t a competition – no one’s trauma is more or less “worthy” than another’s.
Today, my guest Katharine Manning and I discuss what is trauma, how it affects the workplace, how we can recognize trauma in others, and 5 steps to respond to a colleague, team member – or frankly anyone – dealing with trauma. She shares great examples of how we might brush things off or inadvertently let go of a great employee when we’re not cognizant of trauma, what it means to be a trauma-informed organization, and three steps to creating one. This was a robust conversation and I know whether you are a leader or a colleague will get so much out of it to boost performance and engagement – while also supporting someone in need.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Any trauma will change us – we need to acknowledge that change, we can then embrace that new version of us.
- Trauma can manifest itself in different ways in different people. It can also be triggered by situations that, for some, may not be triggering and for others it’s life-shattering.
- You can make tough decisions and be a strong leader with empathy. Those are the best leaders with the most successful companies.
“Trauma isn’t a jacket that you can just take off when it’s time to go to work. We carry it with us and it affects how we show up…I want to get people away from trying to decide whether what you have gone through counts as trauma. Just focus on the person in front of you and what they need.”
— Katharine Manning
About Katharine Manning, President, Blackbird DC and author, The Empathetic Workplace
Katharine Manning is the President of Blackbird DC, which provides training and consultation on empathy at work. She is the author of The Empathetic Workplace: Five Steps to a Compassionate, Calm, and Confident Response to Trauma on the Job, and teaches at American University and in the Master’s in Trauma-Informed Leadership Program at Dominican University. She has worked on issues of trauma and victimization for more than 25 years.
References Mentioned
The Empathy Edge podcast, Sarah R. Browne, It’s Possible to Parent AND Lead without Punishment- the Brain Science Behind It
LinkedIn Article by Maria Ross: What Does Psychological Abuse at Work Look Like?
Connect with Katharine Manning
Blackbird DC: http://www.blackbird-dc.com
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katharine-manning/
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Well, does trauma impact the workplace and organizational performance? Well, if you’re a human being with a brain, then yes, trauma impacts you and your team. And trauma doesn’t care whether you’re at work or not. It can manifest in a variety of ways disengagement, dropping the ball forgetfulness crying, the solution is to create a safe and trusting environment for leaders to get curious about their people, and for someone in distress to be able to get support. The important thing to remember is that this isn’t a competition. No one’s trauma is more or less worthy than another’s. Everyone experiences trauma differently in their brain and body. I may be fine brushing off an argument with my husband, or even a near miss car accident, but another person may not be able to focus or think straight when they get to work. And if we can’t recognize and feel safe enough to talk about trauma in the workplace, the organization’s performance suffers. Today, my guest Katherine Manning, and I discuss what is trauma, how it affects the workplace, and how we can recognize trauma and others. She shares five steps to respond to a colleague, team member, or frankly, anyone dealing with trauma. Catherine is president of Blackbird DC, which provides training and consultation on empathy at work. She’s the author of The empathetic workplace, five steps to a compassionate, calm and confident response to trauma on the job and teaches at American University, and in the master’s and trauma informed Leadership program at Dominican University. She’s worked in issues of trauma and victimization for more than 25 years, including working for the US Department of Justice. As an attorney and advisor on victims rights. Katherine shares some great examples of how we might brush off or inadvertently let go of a great employee, when we’re not cognizant of trauma, what it means to be a trauma informed organization, and three steps to create one. This was a robust conversation. And I know whether you’re a leader or a colleague, you’ll get so much out of it to boost performance and engagement, while also supporting someone in need. Take a listen. Let’s get connected. If you’re loving this content, don’t forget to go to the empathy edge.com. And sign up for the email list to get free resources and more empathy infused success tips, and find out how you can book me as a speaker. I want to hear how empathy is helping you be more successful. So please sign up now at V empathy edge.com. Oh, and follow me on Instagram, where I’m always posting all the things for you at Red slice Maria. Welcome Catherine Manning to the empathy edge podcast, you are here to help us talk about workplace trauma. I know this is a subject that is very top of mind for certain people, and also for all of us to be able to navigate that with our colleagues, with our team members, and all those people that were close to so welcome to the show.
Katharine Manning 04:23
Thank you. It’s really such a pleasure to be here with you. So
Maria Ross 04:27
I’d love to hear you know, I’ve mentioned a lot on this show how I came to this empathy at work, work. And I would love to hear your story briefly of how you came to be someone who talks about empathy at work and specifically, trauma you know, your book, The the empathetic workplace five steps to a compassionate, calm and confident response to trauma on the job came out in 2021. So tell us how this all came to be salutely
Katharine Manning 04:54
First of all, just thank you so much for having me. It’s really such a pleasure to be here talking about these topics with you My story is I am a lawyer who has spent most of my career working with crime victims. I started back in college doing hotline work on domestic violence and rape crisis. It was through that work that I decided I wanted to go to law school because I kept seeing that victims were not being treated fairly within the legal system, and I wanted to do something about it. After law school, I went to a firm for a few years in San Francisco, but then eventually ended up at the US Department of Justice. And my role there was I was a senior attorney advisor on victims rights. What that man is, I did policy and training and consulting on cases, all on this issue of how the department works with crime victims, and I worked on such a wide array of cases, anything from fraud to human trafficking, terrorism, everything under the side, one of the things I started to realize was people didn’t need different things based on what they were a victim of, like a victim of identity theft, didn’t need wildly different things than a victim of domestic violence, everybody needed to feel heard and acknowledged, everybody needed some support to get back on their feet again. And then I began to realize that it wasn’t just the victims who needed those things that my colleagues did to colleagues who were maybe dealing with really difficult issues at work, like the cases that were really traumatizing, or issues like having a an abusive boss. So workplace issues experiencing bias and harassment, you know, workplace issues can cause trauma. And in addition, there are traumas that people are dealing with every day outside of work, people who are in abusive relationships, who are struggling with alcoholism, and addiction, who are caring for loved ones who are facing mental or physical illness, all of those issues take a toll on us. And a, you know, I sometimes say trauma isn’t a jacket that you can just take off when it’s time to go to work. I mean, we carry it with us. And it affects how we show up our communication, our engagement, our absenteeism. And when workplaces can get better at recognizing and responding to trauma in the workplace, they build stronger workers, better relationships, and ultimately stronger organization. And so I left DOJ in 2019, and started working on the book. And since then, through my company Blackbird, I have been doing training and consulting for just a wide array of organizations, anything from higher ed to the corporate, to government, to nonprofits, but all on this topic of how to you better support your employees and your clients, the communities that you serve, through periods of trauma, distress?
Maria Ross 07:50
Wow, I mean, what a journey and what a link you made between victims rights and supporting victims, and the need for empathy, not just justice, in that role, but the ability to connect with them as human beings. And I love how you notice that impact in the workplace as well, because I think there are many people who still have that notion that trauma, quote, unquote, is not something that happens to you in an everyday situation, they associate it with war, or, you know, big global disasters, they don’t associate, even things like PTSD, with something that people do every day, working nine to five, and myself having been in a like mentally, not so great relationship. And in a psychologically abusive workplace. They feel the same, it doesn’t matter what the causes or the environment, it feels the same as a human being. So I would real quickly love to find out why you called your company Blackbird.
Katharine Manning 08:54
So I am gonna admit I am terrible at naming things. Like when my book sold the, the editor at HarperCollins was like, We love everything, but you have to change the title. Right? Right, right. This is just not my strike. But I kept coming back to the word Blackbird. And it is the reason it speaks to me, it’s because of that old Beatles song, you know, Blackbird singing in the dead of nines. And what I especially love is that line take these broken wings and learn to fly. What I love about that is that it acknowledges that when you’ve been through something hard, something traumatic, or changed by it, you’re not the same afterward as you were before, but you can still go on and do incredible things not in spite of but because of all that you have been through in your life. And that’s really my goal through my work is to help understand that it’s okay to acknowledge that this is hard, and to trust that supporting each other we can get through it.
Maria Ross 09:53
I love that so much because I’m going to take a little segue my left my longtime listeners know about my story. I have recovering from a near fatal brain aneurysm in 2008. And I wrote a book about that experience rebooting my brain. And a big part of my recovery was understanding that you have to acknowledge that things have changed, you can’t pretend everything’s fine. And we can just quote unquote, go back to normal. Any trauma that we experience brain injury, abusive relationships, a crime against us, we have to acknowledge that it’s changed us. And the sooner that we acknowledge there’s a new version of ourselves, the sooner we can embrace that new version, and come up with new strategies for how to cope and new strategies for how to live and set goals and find our joy. But even in my recovery, that was actually the biggest hurdle I had to overcome, because I kept trying to get back to the way I was before. And I had a very kind, tough love physical therapist who said, Forget about what you used to be able to do before, we’re going to deal with what’s in front of us now. And it was at that moment, literally, that things turned around for me. So I love that you said that. And that idea of trauma doesn’t have to, it doesn’t have to kill us. It doesn’t have to destroy us. It just but it will change who we are and how we see the world. And if we can acknowledge that and work through it, all the better and empathy from others and to ourselves, can really help with that. So thank you for the work that you’re doing. Now, let’s just for sharing that story. Yeah, it’s just it’s so it’s so interesting that whenever we deal with any trauma, I find that the natural reaction is to go back, we want to make things sort of erase it and go back to what we were before, but we can’t. It’s like, everything that happens to us becomes the story of our lives. And we need to work with that as the clay we have in front of us now. So let’s help people get a better understanding. Because trauma is thrown around a lot. It’s thrown around in mental health circles, and even you know, some workplace circles, where people do sometimes call a workplace traumatic when maybe that’s not quite what’s happening there. So what is trauma?
Katharine Manning 12:11
You’re right, there are a million different definitions of it. The definition that I use in my work, is that trauma is a psychological injury that affects performance. That is a kind of slimmed down version of the definition used by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, or SAMSA. What I like about that definition is that, in contrast to some others, it doesn’t give you a list of life events, and define trauma as if you have experienced one of these life events, and you’ve experienced trauma, right? I don’t like defining trauma in terms of the life event or the experience. Because the reality is that we all have different experiences of the same events. I mean, if you have more people who were in a car accident together, you know, one might walk away and be a little shaken up, but able to make their way to work and be kind of fine for the rest of the day. And the rest of the week, another one falls apart at the scene can’t go to work for the rest of the week, can’t get in a car for a month, maybe a third one seems fine heads into work. And then that night falls apart. sobbing. None of those is the right reaction. They are all just within the range of normal human reactions to a dramatic and woman. So I want to get people away from trying to decide whether what you have gone through counts as trauma. Yeah, has just focus on the person in front of you and what they need. And that’s the other piece of it is that it affects performance. Because we’re when we’re in a workplace, that’s really what we’re talking about. Is there something that you are going through right now that is keeping you from being able to perform, you know, at home at work in the ways that you want and need to? And if so, let’s get you some help.
Maria Ross 13:54
So how can leaders or even colleagues recognize trauma and someone else they might be able to see an outward reflection of, you know, sudden anger or disconnection or someone who’s, you know, not turning things in on time anymore? It might manifest in 1000 different ways, as you said, so how can we have our eyes open to recognize that maybe the behavior that we’re witnessing is a symptom of trauma? You know, I
Katharine Manning 14:21
think it’s helpful to talk a little bit about how trauma affects the brain because I think that context can kind of help frame why different reactions can all be evidence of trauma. So there is a part of our brain called the amygdala, whose job it is to keep us safe. And it is always scanning our environments, trying to figure out if we’re in danger in any way and when it perceives a danger of any kind. It triggers the stress response where one thing it does is gives us a flood of adrenaline in case we have to take some action like fight off an attacker or run away. It also in Another important thing that it does is the parts of the brain that are less relevant for immediate physical protection get dialed down just a little bit, well, it’s relevantly, the parts in your prefrontal cortex that are associated with complex thinking and rational decision making, they get dialed down, because I think the amygdala is reasoning right now I don’t need to read a spreadsheet I need to run. So I’m just gonna focus on getting blood into your legs and right,
Maria Ross 15:23
I don’t need to organize my schedule, I do
Katharine Manning 15:27
it so that obviously, you know, we developed that way for very good reasons. And I think it does keep us safe and a lot of instances, but one of the things that’s difficult is the amygdala, while it is very good at keeping us physically safe, it’s not always very good at telling when we are in physical danger. So you, for instance, maybe you stand up to deliver a presentation and your mind goes blank, your hands start shaking, you’re having that stress response, obviously, you’re not in physical danger. But it’s maybe reputational danger, right? If you have to go in to your boss and say, I need you to understand that I’m going to need to telework for a little while because I’m in an abusive relationship. And I need to go live in a shelter for a little while. And I don’t, I want to make sure nobody knows where I am. Even, that is a terrifying conversation to have, right? And you can have that stress response. Right. So it can manifest therefore in things like, you know, a flood of adrenaline, so you’re suddenly pacing, or you can’t keep still, other things are brain fog, difficulty remembering things, difficulty comprehending or explaining, all of those can be signs of trauma, in terms of recognizing it in the workplace, I think one of the things I tend to advise and try to live by myself is to start with an assumption of best intentions, and provide clarity and, and grace wherever possible. So when somebody is, for instance, you know, showing up late a lot, let me tell you a story. There was a guy I spoke with who was the CEO of a company, and I was talking to him about the work that I do and why I do it, and why it matters. And he was listening and, and he got quiet for a second. And he said, you know, we almost fired one of my best friend’s, he said, this was this guy was the head of sales for the company, they had come up together and work together for more than a decade, you know, been to each other’s houses, their wives were friends, he had always been a pillar of the organization’s success, you know, that he was part of why this company was what it was. And then one day, his performance just fell off the cliff. Wow, like he started showing up late, he was not engaging on projects. He was dropping the ball a lot. And the leadership team had a meeting about it. And they were like, we can’t have somebody in this position who can’t perform. It’s too important a role. And I think we got to let them go. And then finally, somebody said, Well, why don’t we talk to him? And see talking? I know exactly.
Maria Ross 18:12
I know, we talk and get curious about what’s going on for this person. Right?
Katharine Manning 18:17
Ask. So they did. And what they found out when they asked that question was that the man’s wife was dying, oh, my goodness. And he had wanted to bring it up at work. Because he thought, you know, my personal issue is, and I don’t want to be making excuses or something like that. But once he was able to be open about everything he was going through, and they got some support around him, obviously, they were horrified and you know, did what they could to support him. According to the CEO, this guy’s performance did a 180 like that day. And when I think about it, you know, there’s the stress of work, which is, you know, going to be there and we’ll do what we can, there’s the stress of knowing that his wife was dying, and they can’t do much about that. But then there is a third stress, which is what is worth going to say about the fact that I’m worried about my wife. It’s the
Maria Ross 19:04
optics, the stress of the optics of what will people think of me? Yeah,
Katharine Manning 19:09
exactly. Exactly. And because they could get rid of that it was like this burden lifted, right? And then you know, you also think about, like the loyalty of that, right? Like you stood by me when my wife was dying. Like, I haven’t been here forever, I will, I will do anything to stand by you because of the way you stood by me.
Maria Ross 19:28
I think that that’s, you know, this is the crux of what people mean when they talk about bringing yourself to work. We’re not talking about letting it all hang out and being completely unprofessional at all times and becoming in your bathrobe. Talking about this, we’re talking about taking that stress out that unnecessary stress away. That for all practical purposes detracts from your performance. Like if we’re looking for bottom line reasons to understand why we should be more empathetic for our colleagues and for our team members at work. That’s why it’s you take that step. and burden away from someone. So now you can get to what can we do to help improve the performance and support this person, especially if they’ve been a high performer in the past. So what a great story and a not a great story for that person, unfortunately. But a great story to exemplify why we need to lead with curiosity and getting to know people and not being afraid to sometimes bring our personal life into our workplace environment, because whether we want to admit it or not, it’s impacting the work. So we can pretend it’s not there. But it really does impact the work and it impacts the performance of the company at the end of the day. Definitely, definitely. I love that. So now that we might have some, some cues to recognize that, you know, not always, but trauma could be a factor here. What are some good ways to respond? Because I have talked in the past about, sometimes our best intentions can actually cause more harm than good. And I always use the example of empathy hijacking, whereas it’s, it’s, you know, you tell your story you share with me, and I instantly try to connect with you by talking about my story and what happened to me, right. And so how can we respond to someone that we suspect might be dealing with trauma? I love
Katharine Manning 21:22
that you talked about that empathy, hijacking, and that’s something that I focus on a lot of this oil. Yeah. And I think you’re right, there is a desire to connect, but what you’re doing is really pulling the microphone, you know, towards yourself. So, in all of this work with prime victims, a lot of what I did you know, I’m a lawyer, and my role was to, you know, my, my job was to advise on victims rights. But what I found over time was that the legal aspects of my job were less than less, and it was much more about this. How do you express empathy? How do you support people in trauma, and so it was something that I was doing a lot with prosecutors, law enforcement agents, just try to help people know how to better support people. And I know that it’s hard. First of all, let me just acknowledge that it is hard to me, for me to this day, I mean, I’ve had conversations in the last six months with people where they say something, and I feel like I’ve just been punched in the stomach. And it takes me a second to like, you know, reconfigure and realize, okay, this is a story of trauma that has just been shared with me. So I need to make sure that I’m responding appropriately with compassion and column. So because I know all of that, and because I also know that feelings are contagious. And that’s another aspect of empathy, right as we feel the feelings of the people that we’re interacting with. And so when we are interacting with somebody in trauma, we can get a little contagion effect of that surge of adrenaline and suppression of complex thinking. So suddenly, we’re like, playing with our pen, we keep looking at the door, our brain goes a little blank, it’s hard to respond well, in those moments. So I came up with the five steps of what I think you should do to support somebody when they’re sharing a story of trauma with you. And this is really geared toward the workplace, but a lot of it is applicable in any context. So the acronym is laser, Le s e r. And I like to say it’s to help you stay laser focused on the person in front of you and what it is that they need. The five steps are number one, listen, this is active listening, showing them that you actually want to hear what they’re saying. You nod you say, Aha, you ask questions, open ended questions to let them know that you want them to keep talking. Next step is acknowledge. And this is really just letting the person know that you’ve heard them. So rather than watching into your own story of something similar that happened to you, or the scrape resource that you think they should access, first thing is just let them know that you’ve heard them. Something as simple as thanks for sharing that. Or I’m sorry for everything you’re going through, or that sounds really hard or scary, or whatever it sincerely sounds to you. So just a quick statement that acknowledges that they’ve shared something with you, and thanks them for it. Try to avoid responses that either deny or distract for what they’ve said. So the distraction is the one that you just mentioned, you know, something similar happened to me. So let me tell you about that. Distraction can also be something like, oh, well, really, you need to focus on your kids right now. So let’s just talk about how you’re taking care of your kids, instead of the thing you just shared. A denial is something like Oh, I’m sure you misunderstand, right? Or
Maria Ross 24:35
it’s nothing. It’s all going to work out. Yeah. What would under that under that also fall the trying to problem solve it right away, trying to get the advice and you should go talk to this person or you should do this or you should listen to this podcast or the show. Yeah, absolutely.
Katharine Manning 24:51
Yeah. And I think honestly, that problem solving thing is, I think it becomes harder to avoid the more senior you get at work in this way you get more senior, it’s by being really good at solving problems. So it becomes instinctive you think this is my value in a work situation is that I can solve a problem. And in a lot of context, I’m sure that’s true. And it’s excellent that you’re such a good problem solver. But in this context, problem solving can come across as trade or minimizing, because probably, they have already thought of all of the solutions that you’re thinking of view. And it can make them feel kind of dumb. You know, like, oh, well, have you considered? You know, you tried? Of course I have. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the reality is, you’re never going to come up with a solution as good as what they will come up with, because you don’t know their situation as well as they do. So when I talk about this, in training, I have a slide of a person, like a superhero wearing a cape and, and I say it’s it remember that you want them to wear the cape, like problem solving feels really good. Let them do it. Right.
Maria Ross 25:58
So good. So we’ve we’ve gone through listen and acknowledge and then we have s er,
Katharine Manning 26:06
yeah, so share is the next step. One of the things I saw in working with crime victims is everybody created information. They wanted to know what happened to the what, when what was gonna happen next. And I began to realize that one of the things about periods of trauma or distress periods of upheaval, is they feel very out of control. And knowledge is power, when we can share information with people that helps them feel a little bit more in control. So you can share facts if you know them, like you know, if there was an incident of workplace violence. This is what we know about what happened, can share process information, maybe somebody comes to you to report bias. And you say, Well, you know, we have a process for handling complaints of bias, here’s what it is. Talking through process can be helpful. Sharing value, this is helpful, you know, we take these issues very seriously, safety is of paramount importance. Values, information can be helpful and even being open about what you don’t know, like, I don’t know how these public complaints are handled, no, but let me know what I can find out. And I’ll get back to you. Even that is giving information. So when you
Maria Ross 27:11
talk about share, though, I could see that being interpreted as what we just talked about, which is sharing advice and sharing problem solving. How do you discern those two?
Katharine Manning 27:22
Yeah. So share is really giving the person information that they want and need, that’s helpful for them. And really, I mean, I think of the blocks of information as being facts about the situation, process information, like your our steps, right, you wanted to do X or Y, or Z, or these are how decisions are being made around this issue of values and things that aren’t known but hope to be sin. And so this is not your time to open up about like the great thing that your sister did when she was in a similar situation. It’s really this is factual information that’s going
Maria Ross 27:57
to help them in this moment. Yep. And is there any guidance on if they’re ready for that? So for example, is it? Is it okay to ask for consent? Have you know, is this talk? Are we talking now? Are you just are you just wanting to vent at this point? And have me listen? Or would you like me to talk you through some of the resources we have available? Is that ever appropriate? Yeah,
Katharine Manning 28:22
it is. Absolutely. And you know, the next step in power is all about resources. It’s going outside. And for both of these steps, really, I think getting consent is helpful, and just saying, you know, what, how can I help you? What do you need right now is always a worthwhile thing. And then actually listening and trying to provide that sometimes people don’t know what it is that they want, or need. So just reminding them, I remember having a conversation once with a colleague who she came to me to say that she was concerned that her ex boyfriend, you know, he was just acting in ways that were a little scary, you know, like showing up a lot. And, and she said, you know, a few times when she’s walked out of the office, he’s been right there waiting, and she’s not really sure, like, why he was doing that. And oh, by the way, he’s law enforcement. So he’s always carrying a gun. And I mean, that she was sharing all of that. And I was listening and acknowledging, and I said, and have you thought about talking to security at our office? And she was like, No. And I said, Well, you know, there’s, there’s really smart people in our security office, and it might just be helpful for them to understand that, you know, the guy hanging around up front, you know, maybe has a previous relationship with somebody inside and she did go and talk to them. And they were great. I mean, incredibly kind and supportive and didn’t make a huge deal of it. And right, you know, took a picture of the guy that she had and you know, just were very supportive within
Maria Ross 29:53
and I love the way you phrase that because there’s the difference between you should go do this with Have you thought about I mean, words matter in these moments. And so you might be saying the same thing. But you’re saying it in a way that’s a little bit more empowering. And also, like you said earlier, acknowledges that maybe she didn’t think of that before. And so you’re not putting her in, in a defensive position. It’s just have you thought about that. So I love I love those ways of those little cheats we have of ways that we can say something and still share the information with people in a way that they might better receive it in that frame of mind. Yeah, that’s
Katharine Manning 30:32
such a great call out. Thank you for that. And you know, one of the things that amygdala response, right, the flood of adrenaline suppression of conflicts, thinking all of that is around safety, do I feel safe here. And it can really affect your ability to comprehend and to articulate what you’re going through, if you don’t feel safe, doing so wherever possible, try to find ways to make the person feel more safe, is going to help you. So that’s why we lead with things like questions, what would be helpful to you what, you know, what do you need? I will even start off with like, Hey, do you want me to close the door? Or do you like it open to other shades open? Would you like a glass of water, just giving people as much opportunity to express their own needs, and have those needs met? All of those things are going to increase safety and are going to help the conversation. And
Maria Ross 31:24
I think that that’s why that’s important to understand that we can’t determine for somebody else, what is traumatic to them? We the it’s it’s in the environment where they don’t feel safe, and they may feel threatened by something we are perfectly fine with. And so, you know, it’s that it’s that judgment again, over i don’t i don’t think what you went through sounds traumatic. You know, I, my uncle fought in World War Two, and whatever you know, is, it’s this comparison of like someone else’s trauma not being as important or as bad, quote, unquote, as someone else’s, when we can’t help how we respond, how our brain responds as human beings that impact on our psyche, on our emotions on our brain chemicals can feel exactly the same. And we just need to acknowledge that for people.
Katharine Manning 32:13
Absolutely. And it’s, it’s just not effective. You know, I mean, if you approach somebody and you really, you’ve got a team member who, you know, you’re really frustrated, because he’s not doing what he’s supposed to do, and you come in with like an attack, and he gets defensive. And like, none of this is helping anything, you know,
Maria Ross 32:33
everything, all the all the higher functioning things in our brain shut down. I was just talking to a parenting coach yesterday, and I’ll put a link to her episode. But Sarah R Brown, and we were talking about the fact that even with little children, why punitive doesn’t always work, because your brain is literally shutting down. There’s brain science behind why that’s an ineffective way to parent. And by the way, lead. And I just, there’s so many parallels with, we have to we have to work with how our brains work. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, that maybe you you hear this a lot, too. I will get responses sometimes from leaders of like, I mean, I get all this empathy stuff. But the reality is, I have to make difficult decisions, sometimes I have to take actions that are not going to be popular. And it’s important that I have the respect of my people and their, and like, okay, drives me, it drives me up a tree when I hear that, yes, I know.
Katharine Manning 33:33
And, I mean, here’s the thing, like, you can lead with fear, okay, and you can get a lot done in the short term, I will not deny that, but you are building your house on a minefield, because people are not going to tell you all of the problems that you know, that you are looking over, as you’re in this, you know, sprint to get this house up as quickly as possible. And so that’s where you end up with things like where you have planes falling out of the sky, because nobody’s willing to listen that maybe there’s a problem with this, where you have like the Larry NuSTAR case, where with US Olympics, gymnastics where they had 200 women and girls being abused. Why did that happen? Well, I think part of it is there was a culture of fear on that team, and where nobody felt like they were allowed to open up about what they were going through. So what ends up happening, huge, you know, bankruptcies and major problems, and a lot of smaller problems as well like decreased engagement, turnover, all of the other issues as well. So yes, you can lead with fear and you can get a lot done very, in the very short term, but it is never going to work out over the long term.
Maria Ross 34:42
Now, this idea that it’s an either or that either I’m going to be respected or I’m going to be empathetic, drives me absolutely insane. Because it’s this idea that it can’t be both when really, you can make tough decisions with empathy. You can be a strong leader with If empathy they coexist, and actually the best leaders that we are willing to follow into the fire are those that we know see us as humans and respect us. And the exact same task that an unsympathetic leader asks me to do, I’m going to be completely unwilling to do it.
Katharine Manning 35:17
Okay. So like, yeah, I totally agree in terms of people following you. It also gives you better information. Yes, yeah. He will just go down this path blindly. Yeah, right to the fact that there’s some major flaw that somebody would tell you if you know, if you look like you cared,
Maria Ross 35:35
right, right, exactly. So let’s wrap on this idea of so your leader listening, how can you build a trauma informed organization, which is sounds kind of scary to want to build a trauma informed organization? It’s like you’re inviting it in, right? But we’re humans, it’s already gonna be there in some way, shape, or form for people. So what does it mean to be a trauma informed organization? And how can what are some steps that leaders can take to start down that path?
Katharine Manning 36:05
Yeah, absolutely. First, let me just wrap up the laser. So the last step, yes, sorry. No, yeah, that’s okay. So we did listen, acknowledge, share and power, which is the referral to resources like EAP. And then the final one is return. And that’s both literally returning to the person check in on the later let them know you continue to be a resource. It’s also returned to yourself, acknowledging that supporting others can take a toll on us. And so we have to be taking care of ourselves as well. I’d love to add at least Yeah, I got
Maria Ross 36:36
I got too overexcited there. So yeah. Oh, good. Just a point on that is this idea of self care. So important, I’m going to be writing about it as one of the five pillars of effective empathetic leadership in my next book that’s coming out in 2024. Because we have to get away from this idea that self care is indulgent. Because we have to, we charge our phones up every night. I know, we’ve heard that ad nauseam. But we do, there’s assets we take care of, to ensure they are working properly. And we as leaders have to take care of ourselves to ensure that we are working properly. And to your point, if you are the receiver of someone’s traumatic experience, or they’re sharing a traumatic story with you, that is that is going to impact you as well. So you need to make sure that you are taking care of yourself, you’re not getting lost in the process of trying to be empathetic to someone else. Yeah,
Katharine Manning 37:33
absolutely. And it is normal and healthy for it to take a toll on you like no one worse, hearing something horrific is going to have an effect. So it’s not that that effect is the negative thing. It’s the failure to give yourself space for recovery. Isn’t the problem, Asian, so allow yourself like, wow, that was really hard. I mean, it’s happened to me recently, I did a training and somebody shared a story in the training that just really left me kind of reeling. And I came away feeling hopeless, and just really depleted. And I took a little time I reached out to a friend and I, you know, just gave myself a little room to process all of that. And it took a day or two, but I felt better and hopeful again, and I think that’s the key is just giving yourself the space and the support that you need to be able to recover.
Maria Ross 38:23
Yes, absolutely. Okay, so we will return to the trauma informed organization. How, what is that? And how are what are some steps that leaders can take to build it? What’s the payback for doing?
Katharine Manning 38:36
Yeah, absolutely. So a trauma informed workplace just means that it’s a workplace where there is an understanding that trauma is affecting the organization, right? We have people here who are experiencing trauma, that it has a negative effect, and we work to mitigate those negative effects. That’s all it means. We are aware of it and we’re doing our best to try to make it better. Okay, so it’s not, not rocket science. It’s just an understanding and efforts to improve. And then in terms of building a trauma informed workplace, I really think there are three aspects. First, is this idea of acknowledgement, that people there feel like I can be heard, if I express something, people will hear me, okay, it’s okay to open up about challenges. And I will be acknowledge, the second one is support, I can get help when I need it. And that means there are policies on the books that are helpful, you know, things like mental health, you know, days or miscarriage leave or any of a number of different programs and policies that are there. That also means things like transparency, are we open about the direction we’re going and challenges we’re facing? And then finally modeling self care showing that it really is okay. And that’s where we talk about leaders. I always say you have to engage not just in self care but noisy self care. Be very, very Are you clear about I’ll have boundaries to that is okay, where I need to get help. I just went back to therapy. And it’s been really helpful for me, like just saying that think about how much possibility you open up for other people in your organization. And
Maria Ross 40:14
I love that last one real quick, I just want to have to say, because we’ve been in a culture so long, where people have worn the badge of busyness as something they boast about, I can’t wait for the point where the norm is that we boast about how we take care of our emotional health. Like a lot, yes to be our badge of honor. Right? You found my gun lately? Well, yeah.
Katharine Manning 40:42
And then we’re aspect of the trauma informed workplace that I think is important is this idea of trust and safety, that I understand the rules here that they apply equally to everybody that you followed through and do the things you say you’re going to do, we don’t have one set of rules for one set of employees and another for others. So creating a safe environment for everybody is also important.
Maria Ross 41:07
I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing all these insights. I want to remind folks again, to check out the book, The empathetic workplace, five steps to a compassionate, calm and confident response to trauma on the job. Katherine Manning, thank you so much for your time today. We’ll have all your links in the show notes. But just real quickly, is there one or two places where folks can find out more about you and your work?
Katharine Manning 41:28
Sure. So my website is Catherine manning.com. But if people are interested, you know, every Thursday, I send out a text message on empathy and leadership and resilience. It’s just a free thing. But it’s been fun. So if people are interested in joining that just type, it’s the number is 833-975-1945. That’s 833-975-1945 and just write the word Blackbird, which is my company name, you just send that word and you’ll be automatically entered. And
Maria Ross 42:00
we will put that in the show notes for anyone that’s on the go right now and scrambling for a pen. But thank you so much again, it was so lovely to talk to you and I look forward to more conversations with you. Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or colleague. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be Kai. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
