Post-pandemic leadership can be challenging. With the current market and increased expectations workers, leaders, and mid-level managers are squeezed, balancing the needs of the business with the demands of their people. This is why I’m excited to talk to a Chief People Officer of a global organization that is doing the work, navigating the journey, and experimenting with ways to better support their people.
Today, I talk with Jessica Swank about how her company’s leaders are navigating the challenges and still taking care of themselves and their people. We discuss the importance of clarity and support when setting high expectations, and how transparency, communication, and listening are vital with hybrid and remote work experimentation. We discuss specific ways Box integrates values into their decisions and develops and enables their managers to be more successful. Whatever your culture, Jessica offers her best advice on where you can start supporting your leaders.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- In your organization, you cannot be clear enough. Hold high expectations, but also give a clear understanding that you’ll be supporting your team and that you’re available for that support.
- Actions speak louder than words and other people notice. You continue to show your empathetic culture every time you talk about caring for each other and empathy in service and follow it up with actions.
- Setting boundaries is both self-care and empathetic. It gives you space to recharge and be more present in the difficult conversations that need to be had in business.
- Work-life balance is not real. You need to understand priorities and boundaries to ensure you’re healthy with your life in the season you’re in.
- It is a journey to understanding and managing the needs of your team. Be willing to take that journey and gather information from your employees on what is working and what is not.
“It’s not just up to the business to say, ‘Here’s what I need from you.’ It is incredibly valuable for every person to have that open dialogue with their managers, ask them when they need support, clarification, feedback, not just sitting back and waiting to be told, but also engaging in that dialogue.”
— Jessica Swank
“It’s all about juggling, and you’re going to drop some balls, just make sure that the balls are going to bounce versus shatter.” — Jessica Swank
About Jessica Swank, Chief People Officer, Box
Jessica has a proven track record of helping companies define and amplify their people and culture strategy (including diversity, talent development, employee experience, workforce planning, people analytics, and internal communications). She has been with Box since December 2018, and currently leads all People (HR), Belonging, Community (including Box.org), Places (workplace services and real estate), and Internal Communications. Prior to Box she led the People team at Blue Bottle Coffee, a high-growth global coffee company. Previously, Jessica led HR for Aruba, a fast-growing subsidiary of HPE, and spent ten years at HP/HPE in a variety of global HR roles. Her early career included executive search and recruiting for CEO’s, CFO’s and other key leadership positions.
Connect with Jessica Swank:
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Most pandemic leadership can be challenging. What with the current market increased expectations from workers, leaders, and especially mid level managers are squeezed, balancing the needs of the business with the demands of their people, which is why I’m so excited to talk to a chief people officer of a global organization that is doing the work, navigating the journey and experimenting with ways to better support their people. Jessica swank is Chief People Officer at Box. She has a proven track record helping companies define and amplify their people and culture strategy, including diversity, talent development, employee experience workforce planning, people analytics, internal communications, she does it all. She has been with Box since 2018, and currently leads all people belonging, community, places and internal communications. Prior to box she led the people team at Blue Bottle coffee, and a Aruba and her early career included executive search and recruiting for CEOs, CFOs and other leadership positions. So Jessica knows leaders. Today we talk about how her company’s leaders are doing navigating the challenges and still taking care of themselves and their people. We discussed the importance of clarity and support when setting high expectations and how transparency, communication and listening are vital to their journey with hybrid and remote work experimentation. And it is a journey. We’ll discuss that today. We discuss how boxes strong Culture Foundation has made things easier, and specific ways they integrate values into their decisions, and develop and enable their managers to be more successful. And whatever your culture, Jessica offers her best advice on where you can start supporting your leaders. This was such a great episode from someone in the trenches. Take a listen. welcome Jessica swank to the empathy edge podcast. I have been long awaiting this conversation with you today. Oh, incredibly excited to be here today. So thank you for the opportunity. Yeah, and we love hearing from people that are in the trenches dealing with the issues that we talk about on this show. And as we heard you are CHRO at Box, which is a huge global organization. I’m sure almost all of us have used box at one time or another. So tell us a little bit you have a long history in HR that we heard about a very storied career, as they say, what brought you into this work? What are you most passionate about, for helping people in HR? And also what brought you to box? Yeah,
Jessica Swank 03:24
that’s a great question. So I actually grew up philosophizing a lot with my mom around, like, what makes people and what makes leaders and really just curiosity around that human behavior. And I actually didn’t want to go into HR because I thought at the time, way back when I joined, it was a lot about just like Personnel right back in the day. But I just I love solving problems. And I love business. And I love people. And I love problem solving. And so it was never an intentional, like something I set out to do. It was always about curious and learning and raising my hand when opportunities came knocking, and then box. So I have had incredible opportunities. Again, I’ve just been so fortunate. And yet, to me culture, community leaders absolutely are what matters. And so that’s what brought me to box in that what keeps me up box pressure.
Maria Ross 04:13
I love it. I love it. And so tell us, you know, again, from your vantage point, as an H as an HR leader of a very large organization, how are your leaders doing post pandemic, we hear all the reports, we see all the studies about how leaders are kind of being squeezed from both ends. I know you and I have talked about that in the past. How are they doing in terms of navigating the new workplace and and all the the newfound demands of the business with the demands of their people? Yeah,
Jessica Swank 04:41
I think this is an incredibly challenging time for leaders, for managers, for employees, just because the rate of information right it’s just it’s just Mach speed to just try and keep up with technology, the pressures of the business to perform to deliver you know, Wall Street Being a global public company, something that we grapple with, you know, this sense of caring, compassion listening to our boys, right? I think we just are asked to do a lot. And we’re all human. I mean, I find my that, you know, you and I’ve talked about this a little bit Maria. But it’s hard. Some days are hard. And some days, we don’t want to show up as leaders or as managers. And yet, we do our best to just show up regardless, though, want to take
Maria Ross 05:24
completely. And that’s the thing is I always talk about empathy going both ways. And we have to remember that it’s not just from leaders to employees, it’s up and down the chain. It’s having empathy for the people that are in charge, who are have to have to make these tough decisions who have so much on their plate. And you know, and it’s funny, because I’m asking you that question as if you’re removed from it, but you are a leader who is raised in the middle to write as, and I think we forget that about HR sometimes is we forget that they’re dealing with the same issues and crises that the rest of the business is dealing with. But we always look to HR to sort of solve our problems for us.
Jessica Swank 06:00
Yes, yes, I remember a silly story. But I remember the fall, my husband had COVID, my daughter had been in, here’s a drop off, like it was just horrible experience. Bono, my dog had diarrhea all over an adult present. And I just remember being like, Okay, you put it on, right? You just you show up. And that sense of like, everybody has good days, everybody has bad days. But we’re at the end of the day, we’re all human. And I think again, just going back to that sense of, how do we connect? How do we just make sure that we’re starting first with where people first and yet then we all are in this together to you know, kind of come together within our business or organization.
Maria Ross 06:37
I love that. And so part of the reason why I’m so excited to have you on again, being in the trenches is, what are some ways that box is putting that into action. So as you’ve as you’ve sort of tried to get your own feet as an executive team on Okay, how are we feeling? But also okay, what do we need to do in the business to support our leaders? What are some initiatives that you’re doing to support leaders right now and help them better balance this, this juggling act they have?
Jessica Swank 07:05
Yeah, so we talk a lot about having really high expectations, but a high level of support at this end. So it’s both of those things, saying be very clear about this is what we expect, here’s our priorities, and yet saying, but we want to enable you, we want to help set you up for success. So from a leader standpoint, we have a lot of kind of group activities. So we have what we call our executive leadership team, our FLT all of our directors, and above, where we have a monthly call, with our CEO with our, you know, kind of all of our leaders just to make sure we’re all aligned business strategy, we have what we call a monthly manager power hour where it is, is, you know, essentially enabling managers on kind of topics. We have listening circles, or depending on the various topics, we have a weekly basis, what we call Friday lunch, and that is also our opportunity to come together as a business and know our Theo shares, Aaron Lavie, we also use the opportunity to bring in customers again, hearing that customer perspective, yeah, we give them boy and Doctor update. So we try and really focused on very high level transparency, a lot of communication, and again, a lot of alignment on what are the business goals, and then translating that down into Ingles, and then individual goals.
Maria Ross 08:28
Okay, I love this so much. Because, as you know, with my new book, coming out the empathy dilemma, it’s talking about five pillars that are essential to be both empathetic, but also high performing and accountable at the same time. And you’re basically hitting all of them. So this, but this idea of, like, what some might deem as excessive communication, and collaboration, it’s never too much like, this is why clarity and decisiveness are two of the five pillars in the book, because we can’t, we can’t be clear enough, like, and what I love about what you said was this idea of holding both high expectations, but also the expectation that you will be supported. Because I think that’s where especially clarity is so important is that we’re going to be crystal clear with you, whatever level you are at the expectations we have of you. And then we actually inkind you don’t get off the hook, you actually have to be accountable for being clear with us about what support you need. And we are going to make a commitment to you that if it’s if whatever is possible, we will do to support you, instead of just let me set the expectations and throw you in the water and hope you swim, which is I think, easier, quote unquote, for a lot of leaders to do, but it’s not sustainable, and it actually doesn’t lead to high performance.
Jessica Swank 09:49
Yeah. And a couple of things to build on what you said. And I completely agree, though we talk a lot as part of our performance cycle that we major both what are we getting those high expectations measured by quarterly OKRs. But we also talked about the how. So we have four leader mindsets we call business team, self, and community all anchored on our values. And it was, again, that expectation, as we say, we we have incredibly high standards. But just as important is what you do. It’s how you do it and exemplifying our values our culture, again, contributing to not only be the business, but to your team, and your community. And so I do think that sense of asked to be bold. And you also said something that I think is incredibly important. It’s not just up to then the business to stay, here’s what I need from you. It is incredibly important and valuable for every person, to have that open dialogue with their managers, ask them when they need support, ask them for, you know, clarification, ask them for that feedback. 360s. Right, making sure that it’s not just sitting back and waiting to be told, but also engaging in that dialogue.
Maria Ross 11:01
I love that so much. And, you know, you brought up another point in terms of not just what the what but the how, because, you know, going back to like my brand strategy work that I’ve done. It’s making value, and mission and purpose, useful and actionable. So it’s not just the pretty poster on the wall that we never revisit, ever again. But how do we tie that to the actions and the goals that we have in front of us right now. And it’s not just going to be enough to meet that goal, because this is where you get toxic rockstars, right, they might achieve the goal or make their number and they’ve like, scorched the earth behind them, right. And they’ve made it a horrible work environment for everyone else around them. And if a company still reward someone like that, what they’re saying with their actions is that that value doesn’t mean anything. And that’s what you know, we all say actions speak louder than words. Other people notice, like, yeah, the company saying that caring about each other, or empathy or service is important. But then that person’s getting ahead. Every quarter, they get promoted, they get acknowledged, they get recognized, just for meeting the goal, not for how they met the goal. And I think that’s such a key part of empathetic cultures, which is so good to hear that you you tie that together every time you talk about it
Jessica Swank 12:18
every time and I think two threads with that. One is the cultures have to be embedded into every single thing that we do, right? Your point, it can’t just be a poster, we have them on the back of our badges, right? Yes, that is important. But it is the tip of the iceberg. So you know, we have awards that we align on. So we have our you know, cloud Awards, where we exemplify boxers who are exemplified in our values are a value we have, you know, a lot of, again, it’s integrated into every single thing that we do. And yet, in those difficult decisions, right? It’s easy to do when it’s you know, everything’s going well is when really, you have that really, you know, we used didn’t label athletes not even very recently, anymore. About four years ago, we had to make a really difficult decision with one of those rock stars. And compared to every other company, this is the first one is still actually a pretty darn good person. It just wasn’t yet to our level of expectations. And so again, it’s making those very difficult decisions. Otherwise, it erodes the trust and the credibility and I think it’s easier, better, probably not going to say something, you’re not going to actually be willing to stand behind it.
Maria Ross 13:27
Right? Well, and sometimes leaders conflate not saying anything as empathy, they conflate avoiding the conflict and hurting someone’s feelings as Oh, I’m doing the empathetic thing. But they’re actually not being empathetic to everyone that person has to work with.
Jessica Swank 13:43
And and I would also say, not even empathetic to that one person, right? Because right, is that helping somebody learn and grow and move past something that’s hindering their success? Again, doing it in a thoughtful, compassionate way. Totally. That I think is where some real magic comes from the trust of you know, an organization and people because they can say, hey, I’m growing, I’m learning. I might not get feedback. That’s always easy to hear. But does it actually make me more effective and a better person or a better, you know, kind of employee? Absolutely important, and
Maria Ross 14:16
those are crunchy conversations. But that’s where, you know, you and I were talking, we were talking before we started recording that it takes courage. And this is why I laugh when people say I don’t want to be an empathetic leader, because then people will think I’m weak. And I’m like, empathy actually requires strength, because you have to make these difficult decisions and be able to make them with compassion and be able to support someone and sit with someone, but you’re not necessarily changing the decision. Correct?
Jessica Swank 14:43
Yeah. It’s making those difficult decisions with with as much kindness which is a thoughtfulness, right, right consideration or everybody involved. One of the things that our family we say every morning is clear eyes, full heart, but does that sense of you know, you have to Go into it, you have to look at it clearly and with, you know, but also at the same time, right, having a full heart to approach it makes such a difference.
Maria Ross 15:09
Well, and I know, you know, I want to recognize that even though I say empathy is innate to all of us as humans, it looks different for some of us based on neuro diversity or past experiences, or, you know, it’s not always as accessible, that muscle is not always as toned for some of us. And so how does the company support leaders and really anyone at any level, to build that emotional intelligence to build that ability to self regulate? To see another person’s perspective? What are some of the things that you do as a company that might be some ideas for leaders listening? Yeah,
Jessica Swank 15:44
it’s really important, right? And it needs to, and I think we also have to have that empathy to, you know, that shows up differently. Exactly, yeah. And it’s not always going to be one size fits all. So a couple of things we do is one, we do a lot around our values in our learning. So we have a make mom proud session where we talk about it, which is one of our values, I’m wearing my T shirt here, make mom proud. But that sense of what does that value look like in action in real life. And so it goes through we use Apple real life box examples from the past, does not just theory. So that’s one example, to we really emphasize, again, kind of listening circles and hearing both ways and role playing, you know, and so that manager enablement, kind of, it’s not just, you know, reading a manual, but it is like, it’s this because it is a muscle, and it takes this and ongoing, you know, you can get rusty, and then you have to kind of you know, kind of reengage with it, we also do executive coaching for some of our individuals, we really believe somebody has a lot of potential, or maybe they have, you know, a blind spot that’s getting in their way. We also, you know, provide some of that, we also look a lot to some of our benefits, modern health is one. So we provide, you know, kind of coaching where somebody can go and talk to somebody professional, because again, I think sometimes looking at yourself, and then learning how to do it for the team and individual. So yeah, we try and look at it across all bases. I love
Maria Ross 17:17
that. And that’s bringing in some of my other pillars, which is self awareness and self care. And start it. You know, sometimes it’s counterintuitive to people that are seeking to be an empathetic leader, they want to put everyone else first. That’s their instinct. And that’s not exactly empathy. That’s a little bit of submission, a little bit of people pleasing. But if we start with ourselves, and kind of I always like to use the phrase, get our own houses in order, and understand what are our blind spots, what are our emotional triggers, the more we can have that courage in the moment to be able to be with someone on our team, and take in their point of view and their perspective, without fear or defensiveness. Because we know ourselves so well, we know how we show up in conversations like that. And so it’s kind of counterintuitive, but the first step to empathy for others is working on yourself.
Jessica Swank 18:07
100% Yes, I totally agree. And I think that understanding, I always say that self care is also knowing and drawing your own boundaries. Yes. He says to me, I think it’s so easy to think like I to your point, I’m just going to take care of everybody else all the time, but then we’re depleted. And so knowing where and when it does, again, doesn’t look the same for everybody, but what are those supercharging moments where we get to fill our own tank, so that we can show up the best way possible for others, you know, so, you know, recent example. So I am a very passionate person. And I also, you know, I work really hard on staying super objective. And the other, you know, night, I was in a pretty intense call over something that was really difficult conversation. And I said, we, this is so important, can we talk about this tomorrow, and it was so hard for me to call the conversation. But then the next day, we picked it back up, and we had a really productive, healthy conversation. But I knew in that moment, I was like, okay, all my flags of like, I’m not gonna show up the way that I want to, or we’re not getting the best outcome out of this one,
Maria Ross 19:13
right. And that requires knowing, recognizing that those triggers are starting to happen for you. And there’s so many people that sort of go through life, like a bulldozer, just not not seeing what’s happening to other people, but also not being able to recognize what’s happening for themselves. And, you know, that’s also part of the clarity that we that I talked about is clarity and setting those boundaries. So you need to be self aware enough to know what those boundaries should be. Take care of yourself to respect those boundaries, but also clearly be able to communicate that as well. Yeah. So I love that that’s so great. And you’re reminding me of, you know, again, kind of back to that self care issue. One of the things I write about in the book is that, you know, self care is not Manny’s and Petty’s it’s not massages it can be but that’s more self maintenance, right? Self care that the way we’re really talking about Audit is how to understand what recharges you or where you need rest or what energizes you. And so it can be very active. It can be, you know, for some people self care is running a marathon, or, you know, when when I was working in corporate, I love doing independent theater. And I was in a very supportive workplace where it wasn’t like I had to miss work for it. But they knew like I had to leave at certain times when I was going to rehearsals because I had to go to rehearsal. And then my team came and supported me at the performance, right? So it was really fun. And there was another woman in our group who is a trained opera singer. And she really needed to sing, she wanted to do this summer opera program, this summer music program, and got the support from management to do it, and then stayed many, many more years with that company, because they were able to support her in herself care. Yeah, which is, you know, sometimes it’s hobbies, or passions or whatever. That’s part of our self care. I think we overlooked that sometimes when we talk about self care for leaders, because they think, Oh, it’s too selfish.
Jessica Swank 21:07
Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think do I really believe that if you’re writing personally, it actually helps you thrive professionally. And that symbiotic, right? And if you’re really thriving and finding those areas that are really new up and adding to, you know, that rejuvenation, then you can show up even more effective. Now, I’m also a big believer, and it’s, you know, I think people asking me about work life balance, I actually don’t think there’s any such thing. It doesn’t exist.
Maria Ross 21:36
It’s a myth.
Jessica Swank 21:37
I call it you know, kind of like work, work integration. Yeah. Because to me, like, you know, I, it’s really important for me to spend some time with my daughter. But that also means that sometimes then I get back on later, you know, in a day, and so it doesn’t always mean like, Hey, here’s my, you know, I don’t answer a call after five o’clock. And that’s my boundary, and I’m gonna stick to it. But it’s knowing where and when and how to set those boundaries and really prioritize within your kind of the work life and the personal life. I
Maria Ross 22:05
always joke that if work life balance was real, we would be giving like 11.1% to everything in our lives, right? It would all be equal. But sometimes, different levers have to go higher and lower. Like, if you’ve got a family emergency, your family has to come first, right? If you’ve got a deadline with a client, you might have to work late. And I think that there’s something to be said, in workplaces to help new people in the workplace understand that because I think that many people have, I don’t want to say like, morphed the definition of work life integration, but they think it means one thing, like you said, like just being hard and fast with that boundary and never changing and never allowing for anything. But life is not like that. No one’s life is like that. And no one’s work is like that. So being able to understand that like, Okay, we’re gonna go hard. And I might have to work a weekend to solve this crisis at work. But then I’m going to make up for it in two weeks, I might take an extra afternoon off, like if that’s what we mean by work life balance and having boundaries, correct.
Jessica Swank 23:10
Seasons, we each have these seasons. Exactly.
Maria Ross 23:14
And I think that that’s important, too. I love that the new generations in the workplace are changing the conversation and changing the paradigm. I also think they need to be mentored a little bit about some of the hard and fast rules they have around things. And so you know, where they can where they can take that and say, like, No, my boundaries, I never work after 5pm ever, right? Life at work is not like that. It’s not that discrete. And so it’s like, okay, let’s figure out a way to make this work for everybody, and be able to integrate your work in life. So I think there’s something there, we need some sort of a little like, life coaching module for everyone in the workplace on what work life integration means.
Jessica Swank 24:00
having empathy for blue eyes, right? You just say like, this is what I need. And it’s all about just what I need. Right? What do I need was my team need? What is the business need? What is my customer need? Right? Again, sometimes dialing up and down depending on that, but and go both ways. Completely
Maria Ross 24:18
completely, because like, I love what I love the term you used about there are seasons. Right? So um, so let’s talk a little bit. I just want to switch gears, as we’re kind of wrapping up and talk about what are the challenges or the opportunities that you have all found at box around, experimenting with hybrid remote work in this new world of work that we’re in? Because what I love hearing is the journey of companies have like, you know, we haven’t gotten it all figured out. But these are the different things we’re trying and this is what we have found to be a good mix for us. Where are you guys are in that journey? Yeah,
Jessica Swank 24:55
well, a couple of words that you said that I think are spot on. If it isn’t a journey. It is The biggest experiment that I think we’re all going through my gosh, on the journey, and we’re doing some things well, and then we’re like, oh, that didn’t work so well is trying to different ways. So where we are on the journey is, we believe that we need and have it all. We do have workplaces that are absolutely instrumental to our culture, to our sense of community. And we want people to be able to come in and what we’ve found and the research that, you know, kind of what we’ve experienced, but also have heard is, you know, it’s not necessarily your direct gain connections that strengthen when you come together, it’s a lot of the loose connections, it’s the social capital of cross functional teams learning from you know, mentoring, observing, that is really important. And so again, I think that serendipitous piece of coming together, and yet, we also really want we are going to always have remote folks, it whether it’s because their role, so we have, you know, sales folks who are out in the field, their job is remote, or people who have chosen to be remote and are in roles that can be effective remote. And so what we’re trying to do is create these norms. And you know, what we’re trying to call it is like, this is just how we work. This is how we are as an organization, and then again, the looping not into all things, you know, how do we from a diversity standpoint, make sure that we’re thinking about that, you know, the experience of the remote Doctor versus the person who’s coming into office? How do we think about it as we scale and as we grow? So yes, we’re doing a lot of experimenting. But again, I love you know, a lot of times we it’s, I would say we’ve we’ve come a long way, yeah, being able to bring people together.
Maria Ross 26:39
Yeah, well, and I love from, you know, when I met you many, many months ago, what I loved was that box was willing to do that experimentation, and say, Okay, we’re doing something, and maybe this isn’t working, let’s try something else. That adaptability. And that resilience is what’s required. And I know, for a lot of companies that have leaders that just kind of want to go back to the way things were right, because it was easier, and they didn’t have to think about it. And I have empathy for that, right? It’s hard to constantly be adapting, it’s exhausting. But that willingness to do it, I think, is what’s going to be the marker of successful companies going forward, because we’re not going back, like people have seen a new way that they can innovate and create and get work done. And we’ve just got to find a happy medium, between, you know, like, with all the benefits that we get when we’re together. And, you know, all the benefits that some people get when they’re able to work out of their home and deal with whatever they’re dealing with at home or their own, you know, potentially different needs, that they have physical needs, mental needs, whatever it is. And so the willingness, I was just struck by the willingness of box to take that journey and say, we’re going to try it, we’re going to try different things. And you do so many wonderful things within your workspaces to make it a very collaborative and inviting and inclusive environment. And I know that that’s, that’s from listening to your employees, and not just trying to figure it out in a closed door session without any input from anyone. So I just wanted to like say, shout out to box for doing it that way. What do you think was, uh, you know, kind of as we as we do wrap up here, because I could talk to you for three hours. What do you think was part of that way of gathering that information from employees and finding out what was working for them? What wasn’t? Was that already part of your culture? Or is that something that, like, Can you give any advice to someone listening of like, how do you even start compiling, getting accessing that information so that you can be listening and all voices are heard in those conversations? Yeah,
Jessica Swank 28:45
so it’s a great question. One is I do think it was part of our DNA in many ways, but that we’ve built on and figure it out, right? What’s working again, and what’s not working. I’m a big believer in experimentation. So a couple of things. We did a lot of listening circles and listening circles from impacted, you know, all different spectrums. But we also have an annual blog called Dr. Experience survey. And so we included a question on that, you know, and what we found, actually, last year was, the flexibility was top of the list of what boxers appreciated about our approach so far. And so that’s something even as we continue to refine that sense of flexibility of being able to say, you know, whether it’s a which day you work from home and or which hours you work, and, you know, kind of going back to that integrating of lives, and little things, you know, some of it is we’ve gotten a lot of asks, and some of them were saying, Thank you. That’s a great suggestion. However, we’re not able to do that. But here’s the reasons why. And again, I think that going back to clarity of kindness, and that sense of like, we hear you, however, a b and c, right, and just being able to have that very open and transparent conversation, not just kind of pretending like you know, bla bla bla, I don’t want to hear it. Yeah,
Maria Ross 30:00
exactly putting your hands over your ears. Well, and I love that, because that’s also very good to celebrate, and to acknowledge people being feeling safe enough to give the feedback. So you don’t end up discouraging future feedback. Because what could easily happen is you go, No, that’s a terrible idea. We’re not doing it right, which how some companies are actually reacting to their employees, you have now you have now stifled any future contribution or idea that that person is willing to make. And so I love the approach you said, which is super empathetic, it’s like, that’s a great idea. Thank you so much for bringing to us, we’ve looked at it. But here’s why that’s not going to be feasible right now. Or you may find that someone gives an idea. And initially, that’s not workable, but there might be pieces of it that you can implement from into going forward. So I think just constantly encouraging people and thanking people for their feedback, because what I often hear from leaders is, yeah, but if I ask everyone for their feedback, that they’re going to assume that I’m just going to do what everybody wants. And like, you know, you don’t have to set that expectation, you can set the episode station that you’re going to consider all the input, and make sure that you encourage and thank for the input in a genuine way. Not not because you know, you’re never going to do it. But and then really get humble and say, Is there something in this that could be useful? Rather than I already know that my mind’s made up, but you guys have two weeks to tell me what you what you think about it, because that’s what happens is, again, in the expediency trying to like, let me just get this over with and tick a box that I asked everybody what they thought, it’s doing it in a very genuine way where that is factored into your decision making. But and I write about this in the new book, you have to be able to synthesize an act and decide quickly.
Jessica Swank 31:43
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, sometimes that’s the hardest part, right? It takes a lot more time, a lot more energy. But I’m a big believer that the outcome and the results pay off in spades if you do that. And that’s also right balancing what again, what a an individual employee might want, but also the realities of the business, right, we get asked a lot or No, I would love to give everybody everything that they would have on the wish list. We just the business realities of where we have to allocate resources. And so we’ve been very clear and trying to say like, Okay, this is not going to be the top of the priority. Here’s why. But yeah, if we can, you know, hit a revenue hit our business priorities, here are things that then are going to be next on the list, like, why does this travel? Right? Our employees have been begging, like, we want to see each other, not just the people that are, you know, in the same city, but we want to be able to see each other around the world. And so we’ve been building in, you know, kind of more travel budget, based on the realities of kind of where we are. Right, right. I think
Maria Ross 32:44
building a culture of why and knowing that for every decision being able to explain why tracks back to clarity. Yeah, yeah, sure. And that trust, and trust for sure. 100%. Last question, for real. Notice sort of the one piece of advice you would advise. So maybe there’s a really frazzled CHRO or head of HR listening to this right now. And they say, Oh, my gosh, all this stuff sounds great. But we don’t have any of that foundation in place. Where’s one place they could start? Or one piece of advice you would have for them on how to best support their leaders right now?
Jessica Swank 33:20
It’s a great question, I would say, find a couple of opportunities, both that would be low hanging fruit, something that would be relatively easy to implement. But then also find the one that is probably the more difficult, but that it’s going to be harder, but there’s gonna have the biggest impact, and maybe choosing one of each of those to then go and tackle. I’m a big believer in prioritization, I always say, you know, it’s all about juggling, and you’re gonna drop the balls, just make sure that the balls that they’re going to bounce prior to the shatter. So like, find some of those that if you can, like, you know, pick up or if you drop, okay, but then some of those where you say, yes, if I can go and execute and deliver on this with my business with our boys, it actually is going to make a big difference, right?
Maria Ross 34:07
And then you can always check on something else after that. We don’t have to do all the things all at once, right?
Jessica Swank 34:11
Absolutely. fail if you try.
Maria Ross 34:15
Once, in my humble opinion, I wrote down what you just said about like, we’re all going to be juggling the balls and the goal is to have the bounce rather than shatter. That is that’s a keeper thing. balls
Jessica Swank 34:24
that are gonna bounce back up. We’re gonna create the bigger mess.
Maria Ross 34:30
I love it. I love it. Well, thank you, Jessica, so much for your time and all your insights. Today, we’re gonna have all your links in the show notes. But where’s one place that folks can get in touch with you and learn more about what you’re doing?
Jessica Swank 34:41
Yeah, so I’m actually not super into social media for my own personal well being. Um, however, LinkedIn is the best place to find me. Great.
Maria Ross 34:50
And for those listening, just look under Jessica Venner swing. And remember to be a good LinkedIn user and write her note about what You are connecting and where you heard her so she doesn’t think you’re trying to sell her something.
Jessica Swank 35:04
I would love to hear from you. Yes, thank
Maria Ross 35:06
you so much and continued great success at box and all the work you’re doing thank you for sort of being a leader in the in the empathetic culture space right now. Well,
Jessica Swank 35:16
and thank you for what you’re doing and helping to write about it and just brand this incredibly important topic. And again, not having to be just, you know, soft and fluffy, but really the impact that it can have on our business on our customers, our employees, and I think about us, each of us personally, so for sure, I’m excited for your new
Maria Ross 35:34
book as well. Thanks. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate review, follow share with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
