When we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, or DEI, some leaders still roll their eyes or assume they have bigger fish to fry. But, happily, the trendline shows that companies that can move beyond diversity into true inclusivity experience sustained growth, higher performance, and more revenue. They are the ones harnessing more innovation, attracting top talent, getting more ideas and innovation from their people, and frankly, making smarter business decisions.
Today, I talk to Gianna Driver about how DEI efforts support organizational goals and the link between DEI efforts and bottom-line performance. She shares how a company can make the leap from a diverse culture to a truly inclusive one in order to better enjoy those benefits. Gianna shares the ground rules you need to set to make DEI work, and how to be empathetic to – yet manage executive resistance to change. And we talk about her personal story growing up Filipino-American and how it shaped her passion for empowering people.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- People are at the heart and center of everything you do. If you are trying to make a change in your organization, you need to remember that.
- Healthy relationships have conflict. What matters is not the existence of conflict, but how individuals resolve conflict; the same is true of organizations.
- We do not leave our humanity at the door when we come to work. Employees need to be treated as humans with respect and multiple facets of their lives. When employees thrive, they bring their best selves to work and have higher performance as a result.
“Conflict is necessary for high performance and innovation. What differentiates are those organizations who have found ways to create spaces where people can respectfully and healthfully disagree and come up with better solutions together.” — Gianna Driver
About Gianna Driver, CHRO, Exabeam
Gianna Driver is Chief Human Resources Officer (CHRO) at Exabeam, a global cybersecurity leader that adds intelligence to every IT and security stack. As CHRO, Driver manages the strategy and processes related to building, investing in, and retaining top talent at Exabeam, enabling employees to do their best work. She is responsible for architecting the company’s talent strategy, driving corporate culture and diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) initiatives, and leading the global human resources function. Prior to Exabeam, Driver was the Chief People Officer at BlueVine, a private fin-tech company based in Redwood City, CA. Driver has also led HR and People functions in high-growth technology, gaming, consumer, and SaaS organizations including Playstudios, Aristocrat, Actian Corporation, Talend, and Balsam Brands. She is passionate about building high-performance cultures, establishing operational excellence, and creating joy at work. Driver is a graduate of The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania.
References Mentioned:
The Empathy Edge podcast: M.E. Hart: How to Have Honest Conversations at Work
Connect with Gianna Driver:
Website: https://exabeam.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gianna-driver-6183391/
Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
When we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion or Dei, some leaders still roll their eyes or assume they have bigger fish to fry. But happily, the trend line shows the companies that can move beyond diversity into true inclusivity experience sustained growth, higher performance and more revenue. They’re the ones harnessing more innovation, attracting top talent, getting more ideas and innovation from their people, and frankly, making smarter business decisions. And as we all know, empathy is the fuel that makes Diversity Equity and Inclusion work. Gianna driver is Chief Human Resources Officer or Chr. O at Exabeam, a global cybersecurity leader that adds intelligence to every IT and security stack. She manages the strategy and processes related to building investing in and retaining top talent at Exabeam. enabling employees to do their best work. She’s responsible for architecting the company’s talent strategy, driving corporate culture and dei initiatives and leading the global human resources function. Gianna has done this work for many companies in the tech space and speaks to the strategic shift top performing leaders have made in recent decades. Today we talk about how DEI efforts support organizational goals and the line between DEI efforts and bottom line performance. She shares how a company can make the leap from a diverse culture to a truly inclusive one in order to better enjoy those benefits. Gianna shares the ground rules you need to set to make dei work and how to be empathetic to yet manage executive resistance to change. And we talk about her personal story growing up Filipino American and how it shaped her passion for empowering people. Take a listen.
02:05
Welcome Gianna driver to the empathy edge podcast. I have been looking forward to this conversation with you for a while to talk about all the great work you do in terms of culture, diversity and inclusion and help our listeners understand how to connect those dots and connect it to performance. So welcome.
02:24
Thanks, Maria. I’m super excited to be here. Okay, so
Maria Ross 02:27
let’s start off first with your story. How did you get into this work? You were at your Chr? Oh, four Exabeam. You’ve worked at several other companies as a head of HR as a head of people as a head of culture. How did you get into that work? Tell us a little bit about your story.
Gianna Driver 02:46
Yeah, well, you know, I didn’t grow up wanting to be a Chr. Ro.
02:50
We knew what those acronyms met. Yeah,
02:54
that’s so true. Yeah. And so my story begins in a small town in East Texas. My mother immigrated as a mail order bride from Manila in the Philippines. Oh, my dad was a cattle farmer rancher, in very small towns in East Texas. And unbeknownst to me, I think the seeds of HR were sown very early in life. You know, I grew up primarily with my mom, but also regularly saw my dad. And we were an uneducated family. And I remember with my mother growing up in the shelter you your your privy to lots of heartache and lots of stress and you know, call it the underdog, for lack of a better term. Well, fast forward, I ended up going to college university and going to the Wharton School. And that juxtaposition from my roots to Wharton were incredibly, incredibly Stark and pronounced. And what I realized now in reflection that I didn’t realize then is that the seeds of a career in HR had been planted and cultivated meaning one of the things that really resonates with me today and why I love doing HR is because I get to help organizations help people, people like my mom, like my dad, like my family, but at the same time, we are also working on business outcomes and achieving, you know, the overall goals that our business exists to solve. And it’s that marriage between the two, the human out element and also the business side of things that gets me really excited. So Little did I know my career started as a little girl. I love it.
04:47
And also just that exposure to diversity and inclusion and although the lessons both good and bad from that experience are so profound, and I love the fact that you know what we’re going to talk about today which I’ve thought felt this way for a long time. And it’s why I always demand when I do my brand strategy engagements, for example, that someone from HR or culture or people be part of the process, because when are we going to learn that our companies are collections of people, and that without the people, we don’t achieve any business outcome, we don’t achieve any growth goal. And so really seeing HR not as like, the form fillers, right, or the benefits people, but seeing HR as a strategic lever for growth. Exactly where business goals like it, it sounds like you’ve been lucky enough to work for organizations that get that.
05:39
Thankfully, yes, yes. You know, and that’s what attracts me to organizations like exa beam, right, because people are at the heart and center of what we do.
05:49
Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about whether it’s x beams goals or other goals of companies that you’ve worked with how diversity, equity and inclusion efforts support those goals, meaning how do you as, as the leader of HR, draw that line for executives, and for the rest of the company of how these initiatives lead to growth, success? Profits, revenue, all the things? Huh,
06:18
yeah, great question. Well, so I’ll start with I think, thankfully, you’d be hard pressed to find a leader who would say diversity is bad. Right? So so that that is progress, relative to 2030 years ago. So we’re like, that’s, that’s huge. And we aren’t we are moving in the right direction. But I think you’re also correct in that some business leaders need the the the lines to be drawn between why diverse and inclusive companies make for better businesses and better organizations. And so I point to several things when I’m having these conversations. One of those is to look at some of the recent studies by McKinsey and some of the other consulting firms. Harvard has a study on this as well, that show organizations who are more diverse, meaning they’ve got larger percentages of not just gender diversity, but also ethnic and other types of diversity. Those organizations outperform and have higher valuations than their peer companies who are less diverse. So when you look at a lot of the data and the stats out there, you know, it reinforces that diverse business is better business. But then I also specific to, to Exabeam. And into cybersecurity, a conversation that we had recently was around neurodiversity. Specifically, yes, you know, we were talking about how we need more diverse people at our company, because we want people who think differently, we don’t want we’re solving big problems in the world, we’re making the world a safer place. We are outsmarting hackers, and you know, people who are attempting, you know, phishing attacks and malware attacks and things like that those folks are thinking outside of the box, those folks are thinking differently, it is imperative to our long term success, that we have people who think outside of the box as well helping us solve these problems and get right. And so when you’re able to engage in these types of conversations, there is that, oh, yeah, like I should care about diversity, not just because I want to have better dei statistics, but because it’s actually really good business. And it’s what’s going to differentiate and allow us to win in the future.
08:33
I love that. And I love that you’re bringing that in because as someone who survived a brain injury years ago, neurodiversity is very important to me, and something that I see. And you know, my heart is warmed when I read about these companies that understand the value of bringing in autistic individuals, for example, because the way they solve problems and how they even the the angle within the prism of the problem that they’re looking at is very different. And it can expose blind spots. And so I love hearing those stories about about understanding that when we’re talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, this is something I’m trying to educate my son’s school about. It’s not just about gender or ethnicity. Yes, it’s about physical ability. It’s about neuro diversity. It’s about all these other things that make us different. So and I had never connected that dot between cybersecurity and neuro diversity and it makes complete sense.
09:32
Well as a mother to a neuro atypical child, you know, these are, these are topics that are also very near and dear to me, because I see in my my daughter, Abigail, who has dyslexia, that, yes, she does process the world differently. She does think differently, and that’s a gift. There are challenges with that, but I also think it’s a gift and so I get excited thinking about creating an organization where people like her are welcome and wanted and valued. I love
10:01
that for one moment to another like, that’s why I wrote the empathy edge was I wanted to create a world that was more empathetic for my son. And for him to be exposed to leaders, when he was very young, the lessons I was trying to teach him about collaboration and empathy and sharing and kindness. I didn’t want those lessons to be just lessons he had when he was little, and then he was gonna go enter this horrible world of business or anything, you know. So I think we both are driven by the same by the same pieces of our heart. So let’s talk a little bit about diversity and inclusion. Because I find that there’s, there’s so much misunderstanding, they’re often used together, D and I, you know, D and I, D. And I explained to us the difference, because I think people can get their arms around diversity in terms of a checklist or a pie chart of different people in the organization. But the concept of inclusivity is a little bit more elusive to them in terms of how they can take steps to create a more inclusive environment. So talk to us a little bit about that.
11:05
Yeah, you know, a metaphor that I heard recently that that resonated about this difference was diversity is being asked to the party inclusion is being asked to dance. I love that. Right? Because, you know, I think, applying this to business contexts, diversity can mean checking the box around, do we have ethnic, gender, religious, socioeconomic? Do we have all of these different types of folks in our organization, so that can help quote unquote, check the diversity box, but true inclusion is, how involved do those individuals feel at the company? How engaged are they? How much do they feel? They matter? How valued Do they feel? Do they feel that their voice is something that is honored in the organization, and so that is true inclusion? So diversity is merely having the folks who be a part of the organization, inclusion and belonging is are these individuals valued, engaged, excited parts of our organization. And I would say companies that succeed at being diverse, but not at being inclusive, start to see a revolving door of diversity, because what will happen long term is yes, they may have diverse groups, and you know, underrepresented minorities inside the org. But if those folks don’t truly belong, and feel a sense of inclusion, they’ll attract, they will tap out. And then you’ve got, you know, the diverse folks that you want in the organization, you’ve got them voluntarily leaving, which is which is problematic
12:50
100%. And that’s something that, you know, if you want to hold on to those people, it’s it’s one thing to invite the diverse perspectives and experiences to the party. It’s another to actually hear those diverse experiences and perspectives and do something with that information. And I came across, you’ve probably seen this data before, I think it was from Deloitte, when I was researching my book a few years ago, talking about the fact that, you know, Gen Z, in particular, is one of the most diverse generations we have entering the workforce. And they are looking beyond the pie chart and the checklist they actually want to see before they will sign on with a company. How is that company harnessing the different perspectives to make better business decisions? They’re actually equating it to the company’s ability to make smart decisions. And that is a factor for them in terms of accepting the job or not? Yes, when we’re talking about accepting top talent, you know, you’re not going to attract those people. If and one generational expert I spoke to, for the book even went so far as to say the companies that don’t get that will not be in existence anymore, because all that top talent will go to their competitors. I concur. Yeah, I absolutely.
14:00
And, you know, I think that’s a beautiful reality of the market norms. I am excited that this new crop of working professional, the Gen Z years are coming in, they’re so values oriented, they are demanding that companies truly have diversity statements, senses, you know, like, a sense of belonging and, you know, for all of the the underrepresented minority groups, I think that’s a beautiful thing. I think it’s a wonderful forcing function for organizations.
14:28
It’s amazing. And I, you know, I even look back as being a Gen XOR. You know, I remember being on the Diversity Committee when I was a management consultant. And when did that actually mean, right? And for us, it stopped at the, at that point in time, and then in the early 90s, it stopped at the like, do we have these people in the organization? Are they part of the pipeline? Yep. Now what I love is that that these folks are much savvier than I was when I was leaving college, and that they’re going but but I want to know that the company Make smart business decisions and they can’t make smart business decisions if everyone in the executive team or on the board looks and sounds alike, like they just they’re seeing everything from the same lens they can’t possibly make the smartest decision they could make
15:16
all and this is why representation matters. Right? Like it is very, very important that we have individuals leading companies who look differently think differently process the world differently. I will say implied in diversity is also conflict, right? And I’ve seen this in organizations, because when you have individuals who are passionate, and they’re excited, and they’re motivated, and they process and view the world differently, there will be disagreements,
15:47
or clash for sure. And we need to be uncomfortable. We need to be comfortable with the discomfort. Yes, that brings us
15:53
right. And I think that having a healthy way of engaging in meaningful conflict is really important, because conflict can be a very healthy thing. I would say conflict is necessary to high performance and innovation. Yes, absolutely. And what differentiates are those organizations who have found ways to create spaces in environments where people can respectfully and healthfully disagree and come up with better solutions together.
16:22
It’s kind of like a marriage where if somebody says, Oh, we never fight, so we have a really healthy marriage, that doesn’t necessarily mean you have a really healthy marriage, it might mean that you’re swallowing the conflict, and you’re not dealing with the conflict, or you’re avoiding it or you’re passive aggressive.
16:37
And so it’s like the Gottman Institute and the Love Lab that they do. Yes, yes, healthy relationships have conflict. What matters is not the existence of conflict, but how individuals resolve conflict. And I would say the same is true of organizations.
16:51
I love that. And I’m actually going to put a link to a prior guest, we had me Hart, who’s a dei consultant, because we did a whole episode about having on how to have honest conversations at work. And his point was exactly this, that we need to instead of running from the honest conversations, we need to just get better and improve on being able to be in the discomfort. Yeah, and see where that leads, yes, growth occurs outside of the comfort zone, for sure. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about, you know, we’ve talked about the difference between diversity and inclusion. So I’m an executive listening to this podcast, I’m fully on board, we’ve done a good job in our company with with getting diverse representation, but I’m not really sure if we actually have an inclusive environment. And this is something I’m working on with my son’s school, for example, we can’t just send out a survey that says, Do you feel that we have an inclusive environment and that you belong? Right? So how does a company culture take that leap? What are the things they should be looking for to assess? inclusivity? And also, what can they do to boost inclusivity? What are some of the actions they can take? And I think you’ve also talked about the ground rules to set in culture. And so it’s kind of all wrapped up in the same question. But let’s get to the, you know, what, what folks can do and what they should be looking for?
18:20
Mm hmm. Totally? Well, so in terms of what what people can do, and what what leaders and organizations can can focus on, you know, I think part of this starts by awareness building and training. And yes, there’s, there’s as a baseline things like, unconscious, unconscious bias, and, you know, awareness there. And you know, that’s actually a really huge umbrella when you think about unconscious bias that shows up in all different shapes and forms. And it’s important that everyone in the organization go through a lot of these educational types of workshops and series, because that’s what’s going to allow folks to have a common way of talking about and framing these we need a common language as we talk talk about these topics. And that’s where some of the leadership, development and training modules can be super, super helpful. So I think it starts by that number one. One of the other things that we do here at Exabeam, that’s been really helpful is we have employee resource groups throughout the organization. And so these are groups of like minded individuals, groups who share something in common and or are an ally about whatever the cause is, that is at the center of that employee resource group, or ERG for short. And what we found is these groups allow folks to feel a sense of belonging and feel they have a safe place in the organization to express and to shout and to celebrate and to be themselves and then what we do and we’re making various different decisions and it could be small decision These are bigger decisions, we actively seek out and engage those ERGs. We want to have their thoughts and their opinions. As we’re crafting and making decisions. It’s not just after the fact right matters, we want to involve them in, in the conversation. And then And then lastly, I do think it’s important to look at data. And as someone in in the the HR space, there’s this exciting area in our, in our HR industry called people analytics that is getting a lot of airtime right now. And as that pertains to diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, we like to look at things like not just do we have these diverse folks, you know, represented in the organization. But when we do our surveys, we look at, okay, how engaged are they? When we look at promotions across the organization? are we promoting people across the entire org, not just folks who were part of certain categories are profiles of individuals, same thing when it comes to raises. Also, let’s look at our attrition data. Are we disproportionately losing people who are in certain underrepresented groups? And if so, like, let’s let’s lean into that and really start to understand, are they leaving because they don’t feel safe? Are they leaving because they don’t feel welcome? Thankfully, that’s not been the case here. But these are the some of the processes that we go through to really understand how we’re doing on these fronts.
21:22
Well, and I think it’s interesting, because I do think you have to be very careful when you’re even designing a survey to start figuring out what’s going on, because you can actually do more harm than good with your survey questions. This is something I was working on with my son’s school is that we, we might do more harm than good if we just throw a question in someone’s face that they might be offended by or feel threatened by. So there’s all I love what you’re saying in terms of looking at all these other areas like attrition like promotions, potentially even you know, are they do they feel comfortable attending employee events, or, you know, social events that the company might put on? So trying to get at the question of comfort and belonging from a safer place. And so that’s why I think it behooves many executives who might be wading into this without the prior skills to work with a professional that’s that’s crafted these kinds of surveys before, and I’m sure you’ve worked with many people like that, and you probably can craft your own at this point. But that’s just like the caveat I would give to folks listening is that if it were that easy to just ask people if they feel comfortable or not, yeah, no, you’re doing it right. But But if someone doesn’t feel like they belong, and they don’t feel comfortable, they’re never going to be honest with their answers. And so you might get data back that tells you you don’t have a problem when you actually do. Yeah, right.
22:45
Exactly. Right. Yep. The way in which the questions are asked has a lot to do with the authenticity and integrity of the data. 100% agree.
22:55
So what So given your your vast experience in leadership, around HR around people around culture, as we kind of wrap up this conversation? What are the trend lines that you’re seeing in real life? You know, not from research, or data or consulting reports? But your experience working in organizations? What, what conversations with executives are getting easier? What aspects Do you think that they are more aware of than they used to be? Can you just give us an example of, of the growth you’re seeing in terms of of leaders wanting to pay attention to their people in the organization? Because I’m sure from when, you know, same thing from when I way back when I started, way back when you started? Yeah, what has been some of the really surprising and delightful shifts you’ve seen occur?
23:43
Yeah. Well, there’s a ton more awareness and consciousness about these topics, which is, which is huge. I also think as painful as the great resignation has been for many organizations, it was also a bit of a wake up call, because we had executives across all different industries in different sizes of companies who were saying, Oh, my goodness, why am I losing all of these people? And what can I do to retain and keep the talent that we have? And I would add on to this, what I’ve seen recently, which is, I think a very beautiful thing is that boards are now asking for not just product roadmaps and a pipeline summary of, you know, sales projections and all this other stuff, but they’re also asking for that in the context of people and in the context of diversity. And I think it’s wonderful because you have a rising tide that raises all ships. And so, you know, this isn’t a here is the silver bullet one, you know, one stop shop solution, but it’s all of these things working in partnership. Plus also to your earlier point about the Gen Zers who are joining the workforce and they are demanding that companies live, what they what they espouse And that’s that’s done wonders. And so we are seeing a groundswell of engagements of enthusiasm, and a true passion for being more diverse, but also being more
25:10
inclusive. Right. And I see it just as a shift to being to bring more humanity back to work. Yeah, understanding that we don’t park our humanity at the door, when we come to the office, or the virtual office, or whatever it is, that whatever we’re dealing with in our lives, whether it’s mental health challenges, or micro aggressions, or whatever it is, that impacts our ability to innovate, to create, to collaborate to perform, if you’ve got all these distractions on your people, rather than helping them stay focused on the work you hired them to do. You need to actually look at, you know, how are we treating our people? How do our people feel? And I love that, you know, and you could probably attest to this, too, you know, early in my career, you know, emotions in your personal life had no place at all, yes, no, you’re right. It’s not that we’re trying to create this world where everyone’s you know, crying on the floor at the office, we still need to get work done. But this idea of like, looking out for each other and saying, you know, hey, if someone is someone, okay, is someone not? Okay? How can we make things better for that person, so that in the end, we can get, we can get there, their full value of what they can contribute. And if they feel like they thrive, they’re going to, they’re going to be more loyal to us, they’re going to innovate more, they’re going to perform better. So it’s just this pylon effect. Now I have a
26:31
and I, that’s a beautiful part of this moment in our in our history is that you’re right, early in my career, there was this sense of, Well, you can’t, you can’t really bring your life outside of work into work, right? Like, you got to drop out of the door on your way in, and now you’re a professional, and it’s, you know, like, you’re serious, we got to get work done, etc, etc. Well, in the last 10 or so years, there’s been this beautiful shift and change where leaders and organizations realize, oh, wait, there’s the whole human, it’s about integrating all of these different parts of who we are. And actually, I think the pandemic, if there was a positive thing to come with the pandemic, I think one of those is it really showed us. Wow, okay, there’s this intersection of being, you know, parents and partners and having, you know, live all smushed together in our living room. Right, because we, we had to show more of our outside, you know, personal life to our colleagues, because, you know, we were we were in everyone’s bedrooms and living.
27:37
Exactly, exactly. I mean, I feel like it really accelerated. I know, for me, it accelerated the conversation around empathy. But I think it accelerated the conversation about like, again, humanity at work. I agree. So I do have one last question. Do you have any fear that that will snap back? Or do you think that that’s a mindset shift that will stick? If you know, once we get hopefully soon, someday we get beyond the pandemic? Yeah, we move beyond this? Is there any concern you have that that is just a flash in the pan, given the time we’re in? Or do you think that that mindset shift will stick?
28:11
I think the trendline, the trendline and the macro economics are such that this is here to stay on? Right? I was hoping you’d say that. Yeah. Organizations be more inclusive and diverse and having, you know, a greater awareness and sense of, you know, creating spaces where people can really thrive and be who they are. I think that that’s here to say, to stay. I will caveat, though, and say, remember, the path to progress is not linear. And so while I do believe very strongly that the macro trend line is is a positive one, I do think yes, there will be moments of setback there will be moments where, you know, there are leaders who who stumble and who may organizations who have policies that are not the most inclusive or whatnot. But I would say that, that’s okay, let’s point those things out. Let’s be forgiving, let’s have grace. And then ultimately, let’s also hold our leaders and organizations accountable. And you know, I do think because of the Gen Z ers and others entering the workforce, I think they’re helping to make sure the stays.
29:21
I love it. I love it. Yeah, I mean, I think just like all humans, we don’t like change. And even if someone is kind of being dragged along on a change, they may revert back to something they’re more comfortable with, especially our senior leaders who I have a lot of empathy for, because I’ve talked about this on the show before, where they’ve spent decades operating in a certain way because of the rules they were given. Yeah, and then now all of a sudden, it’s like, all bets are off. You know, we’re not we’re bringing our personal selves to work. And we’re this and we’re that and I know it’s jarring for them, because they these habits got so entrenched for them for so long because that’s what they were indoctrinated in.
29:59
Totally That’s how they got to where they are. Right? Well, in one of the conversations that I have with leaders who have that sentiment is, we can embrace diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, we can be champions and allies. And that is not to the detriment of those in privilege, right, like we’re able to do a better job at being inclusive. And also continue to have the in value, the contributions of those who are in privileged, this isn’t zero sum. And you know, folks taking pie from each other. Let’s grow the pie and share the pie with everybody.
30:41
I love that. Let’s leave that there, then. Thank you so much, Gianna, for your insights today. And for the work that you do. We’ll have all your links in the show notes. But where can folks most easily connect with you? Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place. Great, great. And we will put that in the show notes link. So thank you for your time today.
30:59
Awesome. Thanks, Maria. It was great. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked it, please share it with your friends or colleagues. And until next time, and our next wonderful guest. Please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
