What does it mean to tap into empathy and reimagine the life and experiences of someone only mentioned in a few sentences in history, whose story remains untold.
My guest is Esther Goldenberg, educator and author of the Biblical fiction novel, The Scrolls of Deborah. We discuss how a few lines in the Bible sparked Esther’s curiosity to imagine this woman’s entire life story and perspective, how seeing historical events from other points of view can be so valuable and fill in gaps or change hearts, and how books and stories help us nourish empathy and relate to others from a safe distance. We also talk about how writing can be a lonely endeavor and what creating something for the world that only exists in your head feels like.
Esther even reads us a passage from the novel that is a shining example of an empathetic conversation so pay attention to that debrief as well!
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Build a practice of engaging in literature, music, documentaries, movies, and other media created by people and about people who have different life perspectives than you. It will build and foster empathy.
- As human beings, we can become numb to large numbers surrounding tragic events. By bringing it into the story of one person or one family, such as in historical fiction, it can remind the readers that it is about the one, even among the many.
- Scenes in books and movies can model empathy for those who do not necessarily see it in their daily lives.
“Through fiction, people get to really see themselves in the characters and see the characters as people who they get to know. And that really creates fertile ground for empathy.”
— Esther Goldenberg
Episode References:
- Shira Guru and the unSTUCK method
- The Empathy Edge podcast: Chris L. Johnson: When Leaders Pause, They Win
About Esther Goldenberg, Educator and Author, The Scrolls of Deborah
Esther Goldenberg is a native Chicagoan, author, educator, and mother. Once a reluctant reader, but always someone who enjoyed a good story, she developed a passion for writing. Her much anticipated Biblical fiction novel, The Scrolls of Deborah, is available in paperback, e-book, and audio formats. Esther continues to write and teach students of all ages, with most of her workshops now tying in with themes from her book.
Connect with Esther Goldenberg:
Website: EstherGoldenberg.com
Book: The Scrolls of Deborah: amazon.com/Scrolls-Deborah-Esther-Goldenberg/dp/195590541X
Facebook: facebook.com/EstherGoldenbergAuthor
Instagram: instagram.com/EstherGoldenbergAuthor
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. What does it mean to tap into empathy and reimagine the life and experiences of someone only mentioned in a few sentences in history, whose story remains untold? Today, you’re about to find out. My guest is Esther Goldenberg, educator and author of the biblical fiction novel The Scrolls of Deborah. The book is described as quote, a profound feminist retelling of the book of Genesis that immerses readers in a breathtaking exploration of female relationships through the story of biblical characters. Rebecca and Deborah more info about the book, the scrolls of Deborah transports us to the all inspiring landscapes of the past, and uncovers the intertwined lives of Rebecca, a revered matriarch in Judaism, and her devoted handmaiden Deborah in this mesmerizing tale their strength, wisdom and love take center stage, shaping their destinies amid a world steeped in tribal tradition. Esther is a beloved pass brand client of mine, a native Chicago and author, educator, and mother. She was once a reluctant reader, but always enjoyed a good story. So she developed a passion for writing, and this novel is the first and her desert songs trilogy. Today we discuss how a few lines in the Bible sparked Esther to get curious and imagine this woman’s entire life story and perspective, how seeing historical events from other points of view can be so valuable and fill in gaps or change hearts, how books and stories help us nourish empathy, and relate to others from a safe distance. We also talk about how writing can be a lonely endeavor, and what creating something for the world that only exists in your head feels like Esther even reads a passage from the novel that is a shining example of an empathetic conversation, you might be able to use it tomorrow. So pay attention to that debrief as well. This was a great one, take a listen. Welcome, Esther to the empathy edge podcast. It is so good to talk to you today. And have you talked to us about your new book, The squirrels of Deborah, and share your story with us on the podcast.
Esther Goldenberg 02:57
Thank you so much for having me, I’m really looking forward to this conversation. And we
Maria Ross 03:02
should mention how we know each other because years ago, I worked with you and helped you with brand messaging around a publishing firm that you were starting to help elevate voices that might not be able to be traditionally published. And so now and here, you are now publishing your book. That’s true.
Esther Goldenberg 03:21
I mean, you and red slice, you were so helpful to me in figuring out what my message was what it was, I was trying to say, and then how to say it. It was really great to be supported in that way. You know,
Maria Ross 03:35
absolutely. And I unless I’m misremembering, I think you were talking about working on a book at that time, or maybe you had plans to write a book at that time.
Esther Goldenberg 03:45
It’s interesting, I probably had recently written a book or, and, or was about to write a book. And I had discovered the world of self publishing, which I’m really a fan of, actually, I think there’s a lot to be said, for self publishing. And at that time, what I wanted to do was help other people who didn’t want to make a career out of their books, get their books into the world, you know, sort of like a side, not a side gig, really, but just a passion project. And so I started this publishing company, because I now knew how to publish a book thanks to learning how to self publish. Now, I’m not doing doing that anymore. And this book, the scrolls of Deborah is being traditionally published by row house. And it brings me back to what I said earlier about how great it is to have support in the process. Because right now my job is to write the books and talk about the books and read the books, and it’s somebody else’s job to do the messaging and the covers and the formatting and all the things that go into creating books
Maria Ross 04:50
100% And I love that you’ve always had a passion for sharing stories, whether they were your own or other people’s and a passion to be a catalyst for enabling those stories to see see the world because we talk a lot on the show about the fact that stories help increase our empathy and help us get to know people we never would have necessarily had contact with, or experiences we never would have had contact with. So let’s talk a little bit about the book and tell us what it’s about. And let’s talk about the genre because we were talking before we started recording about that, obviously, there’s different genres of books. And especially when I talk about embracing reading, or watching documentaries, or going to the theater as a way to strengthen your empathy, people asked me well, like what kinds of books do they only have to be biographies? Do they only have to be nonfiction? So let’s talk a little bit about the scrolls of Deborah give us a little taste, and I know you’re gonna do a reading for us and a little bit, but give us a little bit of taste of what it’s about how you got the idea for the story and tell us about the genre?
Esther Goldenberg 05:58
Sure, well, the scrolls of Deborah can be categorized as biblical fiction, that basically means it’s historical fiction that takes place during biblical times and has appearances walk ons, or major characters who are also in the Bible. Now, Deborah, some people who are familiar with the Bible may have heard of Deborah as a judge. And this is actually not that Deborah. So the Deborah in the scrolls of Deborah is from the book of Genesis, and she has one line in the book of Genesis, only one so I’m not going to call her major character from that story, because I don’t think she was right. He was mentioned in Genesis chapter 35, verse eight, it says, this is a paraphrase now that Deborah Rebecca’s nursemaid died and was buried. Wow. That’s it. So nothing about her life, except what we can deduce from that one sentence that she was Rebecca’s nursemaid. Now, what does it even mean to be Rebecca’s nursemaid? And why is her death mentioned but not her life. And, you know, it’s just really like right in there, this one sentence, Deborah died, says where, you know, you’re near Beit El Bethel and English. And she was buried under the crime tree.
Maria Ross 07:18
And then we move on. And, but important enough to mention her death. That’s is that what intrigued you that
Esther Goldenberg 07:26
really intrigued me like when this story was being written, who was this character, this person, Deborah, who was not really air quotes, important enough to get a story written about her, and yet she was important enough that her death was mentioned. So that really intrigued me. And it also gave me a really great opportunity to use my imagination, because basically boundless you know, it’s like, there was this woman, Deborah, and she was Rebecca’s nursemaid, and she died. I mean, I get to make up everything. Yeah, because there are no details about her life. Other than that she was Rebecca’s nurse night, and we don’t even know what that means. So it was a really fun opportunity, kind of to just say, well, who was Deborah. And if we know that she was with Rebecca in some way that makes her privy to some of the stories that we might be familiar with from the Bible, as well as stories that we would not be familiar with from the Bible, because they’re not included. And one of my favorite parts of the Bible, or the parts that aren’t included? I don’t know if that can be considered one part. Yeah, what one of my some of my favorite stories about the Bible are the stories that aren’t in there. Yeah, Deborah is just one example. Because if you take a more major character like Abraham, his birth is mentioned, along with the important information like who his father was. And then the next thing that’s mentioned about him is that he was married. So here we have even a major character in the Bible with a lot of gaps in the story. So according to my version of the story, Deborah was not around at the time of Abraham’s youth. But she did overlap with him with all the patriarchs in some way, Chair Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as well as with the matriarchs, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah, and as well as other characters who just might not have heard of in the Bible. So this gave me the opportunity to really get this sort of insider’s view on both characters who we might be familiar with and brand new people as well.
Maria Ross 09:51
Okay, I love this and just to take a step back for people not familiar, Rebecca was Abraham’s wife, Rebecca I
Esther Goldenberg 10:00
was Isaac’s wife, Isaac’s wife, and she was the mother of the twins, Esau and Jacob. Got
Maria Ross 10:06
it. Got it. And so just wanted to level set that for people. I always joke that I’m Catholic, so I don’t know the Bible very well. So I what I love about this is it’s very similar to where people have taken stories about characters or people in history, we don’t know a lot about, like, if we look at Downton Abbey, and people’s fascination with the staff, the servants in these royal grand households, people are sometimes more intrigued by the people that are on the periphery of the story and what they’re privy to, and what they learn and what they hear and their perspective on the events that we may know about, or hear about, you know, like, for example, Downton Abbey, it’s, you know, taking place within the landscape of real events happening in the world. And I can’t remember, I think it’s Hilary Mantel, I’m gonna get that name wrong. She who does the historical fiction around the monarchy, and around, you know, Anne Boleyn, and Henry the eighth, and all those people. And so it is fascinating to see events you feel like you’ve heard about, but see them through the lens of someone else, which, right there is a practice of empathy, trying to see things from a perspective, we’ve never seen them from before. And so I’m curious. Well, number one, speaking of curiosity, your curiosity about Deborah is, isn’t an empathic practice of just not overlooking her and going, hmm, I wonder what’s going on there. I wonder what’s not being mentioned. And I wonder what her story could be. But how? And you know, not to describe everything in the book, because we want people to get the book. But how did you think about what her perspective was going to be on events that people may already know about? Did you have a particular she’s going to have a very skeptical lens, or a very naive lens, or, you know, as she’s observing events, or as she’s being a part of events that are well known, and are perhaps mentioned in the Bible characters as well? Did you have a particular mindset for her of how she was going to approach observing those events and observing those people?
Esther Goldenberg 12:18
That’s a great question. I don’t think that I had intentionally thought of what her perspective is, I don’t think I could have labeled that when I started writing. A lot of that is because I felt like I was almost like going into her eyes and just seeing it from her point of view. And so how would I label it? And she’s also in some ways, being a historian, because she, this scrolls are called the scrolls of Deborah, because she dictates her story to Joseph, who some people might know of the many colored Dreamcoat. He’s younger than she is by a couple generations, and he’s learning to be a scribe. And she dictates her story to him, and he writes them down here. So for her when she’s getting started, this is, let me tell you my story. Because you’re just a little boy, and you know, your grandmother, Rebecca, and you know me, but you don’t really know who we are. So let me tell you my own story. And then as it goes along, I think I discovered that I viewed Deborah as a wise woman. So she’s kind of the woman who I might want to have around to ask her opinion, because she has lived so many experiences. And so she might have a story to tell actually, about when something similar happened to her and then be able to give some advice. So I think I see her as a wise woman, even though she might see herself, in some ways more of an observer. And in the book, she acts as an observer in some situations. So for the burn example, there’s a fairly well known story about Abraham taking Isaac to sacrifice him on the top of the mountain. And Deborah does not witness that. But what she does witness is Isaac retelling that event. So in the scrolls of Deborah, there’s the story of Abraham taking Isaac to the top of the mountain for the sacrifice. And so this brings me back to Deborah being a witness of events and having them written down for the purposes of other people knowing what happened and of course this is still through her eyes.
Maria Ross 14:36
I love this and I know people might be listening going this is not your normal podcast episode Maria because we’re not talking about business or leadership or culture. And the reason why I wanted to have you on Esther is because again, this is such an important practice of, of looking at art and reading books and viewing documentaries and listening to music from people that don’t have the same life experience that you have and why it’s so important to build that practice of it. You know, as you’ve talked about sort of in a safe space, where it’s less loaded, there’s less on the line, it’s easier for you to sort of slip into the perspective of someone else, and not feel defensive and not feel scared or angry, or, you know, fearful of what might happen. And so, when you think about writing, fiction versus nonfiction, like, what does that mean to you in terms of building empathy for helping people build empathy by reading a book like the scrolls of Deborah?
Esther Goldenberg 15:38
Well, I think that through fiction, you have a really nice opportunity to get to know a character and become attached to them. And I think this is the same whether it’s books or movies, or TV shows, even, you know, you see these characters and sort of the design behind it, is that you should identify with them and put yourself in the story because frankly, otherwise, it’s not interesting, right? So, you know, it’s sometimes tell the story of the movie Titanic. So I refuse to see that movie. Because I know what happens, the ship sinks, the people die. Right. And to me, this doesn’t hold any emotion right now. It’s a fact from history. And it’s sad, and unfortunate, and there’s a lot going on there. But if I were to see the movie, then when that happens, I would be crying, I wouldn’t be kneeling, the loss, because that’s what the movie is designed for. And I want to have that experience of sadness. When I go in for fiction. I personally, like they’re all different genres, and people like different things. Personally, I like something a little bit happier than the scrolls of Deborah isn’t like a fairy land kind of story, it tells the story of her life, you know, a couple 1000 years ago was not easy. But I think that through fiction, people get to really see themselves in the characters and see the characters as people who they get to know. And that really creates fertile ground for empathy. And at the same time, there is that safe distance of this isn’t happening to me, this isn’t a scholarly report. So I don’t need to decide whether they’re right or they’re wrong. Do I think they’re right? Or they’re wrong, which really can charge your own emotion, you know, also, but this is this allows you into the shoes of the characters
Maria Ross 17:35
100%. And actually, I, I see what you’re saying about Titanic, because I, you know, the whole story of Titanic fascinates me. And I knew it’s so tragic. But I actually did see the movie. And that, to me was an example of taking an event where people are sort of nameless, faceless figures in history of this thing that just happened and humanizing it. And I think that’s an important role, especially even for books like yours, where it’s whether it’s historical fiction, or biblical fiction is taking these events that happened and putting a person at the center of the narrative at the end of the story. I think that’s really powerful for building our understanding and our empathy for events that we, you know, I hate to say it might just gloss over and however tragic. And so I love that idea of being able to I mean, not, like you said, you kind of have to be in the mood. Are you in for a cathartic situation or not? But I think that that’s such a powerful way to get people to humanize people involved in difficult events or experiences, and also increase our understanding of groups that we may not know very well, or, you know, oh, I always thought this about this particular group of people or that particular group of people, because you had no exposure to anyone in that group. And so it is so powerful. I don’t, right now, I don’t write fiction books I did when I was a kid. But I write nonfiction books now. But that’s always been the appeal of fiction and historical fiction for me is being able to humanize a situation or an event, perhaps one that I’ve heard of, and go oh, that that’s right, that really impacted real people. And there’s, there’s there are studies out that show that we can get very numb to large numbers, when we hear of an event where large numbers of people are hurting or they’re suffering. But an mpr does a great job of this, of doing the story of one person and humanizing that entire event. So it’s not so because our brains think oh, like 10,000 people or 12,000 people or whatever. It’s too big. But when we can learn about the experience of one person, it kind of brings it home, and then we can start to understand and create that connection. So I love I love this conversation I want to talk about, I want to shift gears a little bit and give people empathy for the act of writing. Because you talk about writing as a very lonely endeavor. So tell me about your experience, as an author and as a writer. And if it’s lonely, what keeps drawing you to it? Sure, well,
Esther Goldenberg 20:29
when I was dreaming up the scrolls of Deborah, if you will, because I don’t really know a better way to describe it. When I was dreaming up the scrolls of Deborah, I was living my life, here on Earth, as well as living my life, in my head, or in the past, or wherever this dream was taking place. And nobody else was in that place with me. So while I would have these imaginations, I don’t know what the word is imagining for something that happened, you know, maybe Deborah and Rebecca and the other women are sitting around a circle with drums and the moon is full, and there’s a little bowl with water reflecting it. And it’s amazing. And they’re singing, and they’re dancing. And it’s sort of like, I’m the only person who knows this, I’m the only person who can see it or think it because it’s all in my head right now. And then my job is to put it down on paper, so that I can share it with others. But the process of it being in my head, and then getting to other people, is just a very long process, and sometimes a very solitary process, because this is happening only for me right now until I could share it. And I was very lucky along the way to have friends that I could talk with about it and share some ideas or thoughts or even, you know, a couple pages here or there while it was fresh. Yeah. And that helped. That helped because I got to share this world. I mean, it’s also it’s an incredible world. It’s an exciting world, it’s grabbing my imagination and keeping me interested. So it’s the kind of thing that you really want to share. Now, hey, I have this exciting thing who wants to hear about it? Nobody. Almost nobody wants to hear about it. Because it’s just me saying bla bla bla, bla bla, you know, like this little split, and
Maria Ross 22:27
you put it in a book and people want to read it. Exactly. When you
Esther Goldenberg 22:31
pull it all together, you know? Yeah, people get to hear the whole story.
Maria Ross 22:35
Do you ever feel like I know, I feel this Even sometimes when I’m writing nonfiction, but that I’m never going to be able to tell the story the way I truly experience it and envision it in my head. Did you ever feel that way during the writing of the book?
Esther Goldenberg 22:50
Sometimes I felt that way. But more often, I really felt like this book was gifted to me, I really felt like it almost just flowed through me sometimes. And they say you should write about what you know. And I wasn’t there. I don’t know what. So how do I how do I write about what I know in this circumstance? And interesting stuff happened. Like, I’ll give you one example. There was one day when I found a praying mantis outside on my balcony, and it was dying. And I don’t know if you’ve seen a praying mantis up close, but they’re just stunningly gorgeous. They’re just really beautiful. And the face is so clear. And it just looked beautiful. And it was sat like what am I going to do with this praying mantis? I’m not the kind of person who can step on a bug. I’m just not good at that. And then if you see this thing, it’s like the size of a mouse. You know, it’s like big. It’s not an ant. Yeah. So I picked up the praying mantis, we you know, with paper in a bucket or something, whatever I did, and I brought it down to the soil. And I put it next to a little bush, and it was still dying. And there’s nothing I can do about that other than be there with it or not be there with it. And much to my surprise, that day, I found myself sitting beside a praying mantis that was on the soil and singing lullabies to this praying mantis. I mean, if you had asked me, So Tomorrow’s Tuesday, what are you going to do? I never, you know,
24:26
like, I could go card. Yeah, right. And
Esther Goldenberg 24:29
then it happened. And then it became a part of the book. So there’s a scene in the book, where Deborah and Rebecca find themselves singing to the praying mantis. And this sort of came through as a scene by itself and then took me to the next steps in the next places.
Maria Ross 24:50
Wow, that’s so cool. All right. I want us to hear a little bit from the book, especially where you have parts of it that are very rich and empty. See? So if you could read a section to us, I believe it’s one person helping another with feelings of inadequacy, but providing empathy and compassion, can you grace us with a little bit of a reading of from the scrolls of Deborah?
Esther Goldenberg 25:15
Oh, I’d be delighted. Thank you so much for the opportunity. So readers of the scrolls of Deborah do not need to know anything about Bible stories. It’s a totally a book that stands on its own. But because I’m going to read from page 257, I want to give you just a couple sentences of context here. So Rebecca is the mother of Esau and Jacob Issa is the older one. And Rebecca this whole times ever since the boys were born, had been living under the impression that Jacob would be the more important one. And what just happened before this scene is that Jacob got his older brother’s blessing from his father. And Rebecca helped him trick his father into giving him the older book, older brother’s blessing. So that’s what happened right before this. And now Rebecca has been feeling like, she’s not really sure that she had done the right thing. And she has basically isolated herself in the camp because she’s so upset with what she’s done. Meanwhile, both Esau and Jacob have now left the camp for different reasons, based on this blessing mishap, okay, so she’s feeling very, very alone. And it’s actually Isaac, who says to Deborah, okay, this has been going on long enough, can you help her feel better? And that’s the scene where we are now in with Deborah is going to try to help Rebecca feel better. Got it. So Deborah says, Come take a walk with me. To my pleasant surprise. She left the tent for the first time since Jacobs departure, and walked with me in silence. When we reached the top of a hill, we sat together in the shade of the trees and looked below us at the camp. Rebecca, I said, Tell me what is bothering you. Rebecca cried again. I had seen her cry daily since Jacobs departure, but this was a different cry. This one was loud, not with a few tears, but many. Her body shook, and she spat and pounded the ground with her fists. When her gasping finally returned to easy breathing. I invited her again. I have done terribly wrong. She said, I have worked for a lifetime to prepare Jacob for receiving his father’s blessing. Since the time that ye spoke to me in my dream, I knew Jacob was the important one. The older will serve the younger, I would do everything I was able to make Jacob worthy of that blessing. And now I have ruined all of that. I have turned him into a trickster and a fugitive, oh, Deborah, she resumed her sobs. And do you wish to hear the worst part of it all? She did not pause for she knew she had my attention for anything she would say. The worst part is that I have both failed at preparing him and I have failed my firstborn son. In all of my efforts to guide Jacob. I did not think of Esau for his whole life, right up to betraying him in his moment of earned pride and glory. Oh, Deborah, I am the worst mother ever lived. I have ruined both of my children, and I shall not even have more chances to do a good job with a new baby. This sounds terrible, I said. I paused so that she might have a moment of sympathy before I continued than I said, yet it is not true. Rebecca looked at me, as Jacob not become a skilled Shepherd. Has he not learned to read and to scribe I asked. And are those not skills of great importance? She nodded. Do you not watch Jacob with pride? Did you not watch Jacob with pride as he strode to his quiet places every evening to talk with ya? Is that not a great practice that you helped him build? She nodded again. Does Esau not feed his wives and children and laugh with them and love them? I asked. She had to agree for he did. When Esau returned from the hunt. Did you not raise his patience and persistence as well as the flavors of his food? When he returned with a swollen arm? Did you not cook the herbs for the purpose and wrap his bandage every morning and evening? I did. She said and did you not catch his very first son on your knees and insist that he circumcise the child himself? And had that not happened for all of Aesop’s boys thanks to you. It has she said. These are just a few examples from a lifetime. Perhaps your sons are not ruined. I said I was not pleased with her chicory, but I was proud of the skills that the young men had acquired. Do you think you can call yourself the worst mother who has ever lived? Surely there is one mother or possibly two who have done worse, I could see that she was still thinking of ways she had failed. But she also laughed or she heard the absurdity of it. Perhaps in a distant land, I added, giving her hand a squeeze, perhaps one Far, far away she can seated there, probably not as many as two. Now she gave me a small smile. I could see her pain was still there. But she was making room for it to leave. Oh, Rebecca, I said, Can you please see yourself with my eyes, I see a mother who has loved her children the best she knew how she fed and clothed them, licked their wounds and sang them songs, made them with a generous and kind father, who has taught them not to mention a generous and kind auntie, who has taught them many things as well. Rebecca, put her head on my shoulder and let her quiet tears fall there. Can you do that? I asked. Can you see the mother that? I see? I would like to Deborah, I believe you would not lie to me.
Maria Ross 31:11
Oh my gosh, so great. What a great example of an empathetic conversation. Just giving someone space to feel what they’re feeling and listening and, and offering a perspective I love especially the part where she says, can you see you through my eyes? That that’s so powerful. So what does that what does that mean to you in terms of the ability to show empathy in when someone’s in distress? Mm hmm.
Esther Goldenberg 31:42
Well, I love this example. Because I feel like what we were talking about before, like, we have that safe distance. So we can view these two people from the outside. But at the same time, I can see myself beating myself up for a poor decision, and not being compassionate with myself. And then perhaps needing somebody from the outside to say, okay, you know what, maybe that wasn’t one of your homerun decision. But, you know, that was one thing, out of a whole lifetime, that maybe you’ve had one thing, maybe a dozen things, or whatever, but you also have a lot of great things, you’re still a good person. And so to be able to see that conversation from the outside, I think allows me as the reader, excuse me, me as the writer, as well as other readers, to be able to look at ourselves as worthy of compassion, as capable of receiving empathy and giving empathy. Because there are so many, I mean, countless, Deborah and Rebecca’s out there who have made mistakes, or done things that their closest people and even themselves have disagreed with. And yet, they’re still rounded people, you know, with so many experiences, and to help us not judge ourselves and others, based on this one little sliver of information that we know, but rather to see a person as a whole person who’s maybe struggling as much as we do with just life, because there’s a lot of amazing, wonderful things in life and a lot of really challenging things in life. And so to be able to see characters in a book like that, and then maybe take it in to ourselves and go, You know what, I’m a little bit like that maybe, you know, in this case, I could say, I’m a little bit like Rebecca, I could also say, I’m a little bit like, Deborah, you know, or wouldn’t it be nice to have a Rebecca, who says this to me, or a Deborah, who says this to me? You know, there were many times throughout the book that I felt connected with Deborah, there were many times that I felt connected with Rebecca, or with the other characters, because I could see their actions and their choices and their feelings as parts of a whole person. And so with this particular scene, I think, for me, I like it as an example for people to be able to read a scenario where even in a challenging situation, even when you accidentally caused harm, that you can still receive compassion.
Maria Ross 34:27
Absolutely. Oh my gosh. And, and such a great not even just an opportunity to develop your empathy for, for Deborah, or Rebecca or think about people in your life who might be experiencing what they’re experiencing, but also a model of an empathetic conversation. I think it’s so important because, unfortunately, what many people lack are healthy models of empathy in their own lives, and that’s where their empathy muscle atrophies because they’re not seeing it modeled on a daily basis and it’s an not, it’s not something where they say, well, that’s just what you do when you when someone is in a crisis, or someone’s feeling bad about themselves. And then there’s people who continue to be empathetic. And then they don’t even know why they don’t even know what they’re doing. I interviewed a lot of those people for the new book, to try to unlock their secrets. And I found some, some themes, which is what I talked about in the new book, The Empathy dilemma, but many of them had to really think about why they were empathetic. Many of them didn’t think of themselves as empathetic leaders. And so sometimes it does just come naturally for people. But I submit that that’s because they have been in an environment where it’s been modeled, and it’s been rewarded. And it’s been celebrated. And so it is innate. I mean, it’s innate to all of us. But it’s innate to them, because they don’t know any other way. And so what’s wonderful about scenes like that, in books or scenes like that, and movies, is that model is for people that may not have that in their daily life.
Esther Goldenberg 35:57
Yeah, I want to give a shout out if I may. Yes, the Shira Gora, who created the unstuck method, which is a method that goes on an acronym of the word stuck S T. U ck, I won’t explain the whole thing here. But I’ll say that S stands for stop. And in this scene with Deborah and Rebecca, they actually went through that five step program, but without saying the five letters, right. But really, I think the key is to start with a stop. And at the beginning of the scene, Deborah said, Will you take a walk with me, and we know from the laws of physics, that an object in motion stays in motion, right? And the same is true, I think, for our thoughts, right, we can go down that rabbit hole of thoughts. And that’s just the direction we’re going just sort of like a ball rolling down a hill. But if there can be something to stop that, whether it’s an internal reminder or an external assist, the stop that for a moment, then we can be in a position to have a conversation like that, you know, and show empathy to those who are around us. And instead of just letting those thoughts cycle and build up, we can stop and ask ourselves, you know, where can I show empathy at this moment? Where can I feel empathy, look for that part, because it’s there, right there.
Maria Ross 37:23
I know this, I’m gonna put a link to that in the show notes, as well, as you’re reminding me of a link to another conversation we had on the podcast with Chris L. Johnson, where she talked about the power of the pause for leaders in helping them regulate their emotions, but also be able to more effectively handle tough conversations and tough decisions is if we’re going going, going, going going, we’re never refilling the tank. And the importance, it’s such an important thing that you said, because that importance of that pause is so important. It’s something you know, I try to work on daily, because I I can fly off the handle with my nine year old or my husband or whomever. And I’m really focusing on trying to take that breath, trying to take that pause, regulate my system, before I move forward. And I love that that’s such a perfect example of you know, just I’m thinking about just situations where you might be at work and you’re having a difficult conversation. Go outside, go for a walk. If you’re if you’re on Zoom, my husband does these with people that he works with go on a walking zoom call, where you both get out of your house and you’re walking around, it just changes your perspective. Yes,
Esther Goldenberg 38:35
yes, it does.
Maria Ross 38:37
I love it. Well, thank you so much, Esther, for sharing your insights for sharing the story. We will put a link to your website to the book the scrolls of Deborah, I’m sure it’s available. I’m assuming it’s available in all the places basically everywhere. Yes, basically everywhere. So definitely check that out. And we’ll have all your links in the show notes as well. But for folks on on the go, where’s the best place they can connect with you or find out more about
Esther Goldenberg 39:03
you? The easiest place to find me is that Esther goldenberg.com.
Maria Ross 39:07
And let me just spell that for folks. e S T H E R, G, Olden b, e r g. That’s it. Wonderful. Well, thank you again, it’s been so wonderful to reconnect with you.
Esther Goldenberg 39:20
Thank you so much, Maria. This was great. And thank
Maria Ross 39:23
you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do. rate review, share with a friend or colleague. And until next time, remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria never forget empathy is your superpower use it to make your work and the world a better place.
