Welcome to a special episode brought to you by the great folks at Businessolver! Their annual State of Workplace Empathy Report has been my go-to for years in finding out exactly how everyone from CEOs to employees thinks and feels about empathy in the workplace. The 2024 report offers so much valuable information to help all of us navigate the new world of work.
Today, I’m honored to discuss Part 1 of Businessolver’s 9th annual State of Workplace Empathy study, Empathy Under Pressure, with Businessolver’s chief strategy officer, Rae Shanahan. We focus on laying out the context of the mental health and workplace toxicity findings, what CEOs are currently feeling, and the stigmas and barriers to empathy in the workplace.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- 50% of employees cited a mental health issue in the past year, and the report details about 65% of Gen Z cited a mental health issue, nearly twice the amount of Baby Boomers.
- If we want to achieve our goals as a team, we cannot leave our humanity outside of the office.
- Hold your ideas lightly. Things change and, when they do and you’re given new data, it’s okay to change your mind.
- While being nice is great, you can’t “nice” your way to empathy.
“Stigmas create a fear-based environment, and people cannot bring their best selves if they’re in an environment of fear.”
— Rae Shanahan
From Our Partner:
Download the 2024 Ninth Annual State of Workplace Empathy study from Businessolver: www.businessolver.com/edge
Discover more valuable content from Businessolver on The Benefits Pulse vodcast: www.businessolver.com/benefits-pulse
About Rae Shanahan, Chief Strategy Officer, Businessolver
Rae Shanahan is an experienced executive with a demonstrated history of working in the information technology and services industry. Known for her strong business development skills in coaching, sales, team building, and healthcare information technology and management, Rae brings a unique blend of strategic insight and empathetic leadership to the table. Her empathetic approach has been instrumental in nurturing the growth of Businessolver from a dozen employees to over 1,700. Rae understands the importance of empathy in fostering a collaborative and innovative work environment, ensuring culture is always first. This perspective has guided her efforts as the current Chief Strategy Officer at Businessolver and her previous role as CEO of Innovation Works, where she supported the incubation of new business strategies and opportunities. Her initiatives, including the launch of Businessolver’s Artificial Intelligence Engine, MyChoice Accounts and the Benefits Innovation Group, are all centered on delivering delight to clients and their employees, ensuring that everyone feels valued and heard.
Connect with Businessolver and Rae Shanahan:
Businessolver: businessolver.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/raeshanahan
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/businessolver
Twitter: @Businessolver
Instagram: @Businessolver
Facebook: facebook.com/bsolver
Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com
PRE-SALE SPECIAL! Pre-order 1 to 99 copies of Maria’s new book, The Empathy Dilemma for your leaders, exec team, (or yourself?!) and GET 30%! bit.ly/TEDSpecialPresale Offer ends August 27, 2024!
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
X: @redslice
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Maria Ross:
Hi, Rae, welcome to the special bonus episode of the Empathy Edge to feature Businessolver and your wonderful State of Workplace Empathy Report. Welcome to the show once again.
Rae Shanahan:
Well, hello, Maria. I’m glad to be here.
Maria:
So we know each other, we’ve known each other a few years and have never met in person, but I followed your work, obviously cited a lot of Businessolver’s findings in my books, in my new book, The Empathy Dilemma. You’ve been doing this report for quite a few years, and we also know each other through a wonderful group of thought leaders called the Empathy Super Friends, where we’re really trying to help leaders and organizations embrace the power of empathy to make the workplace better for everyone.
But before we kind of get into the meat of this interview, and I should let listeners know this is going to be a two-part bonus episode. So it’s going to be fantastic to really dissect the 2024 State of Workplace Empathy Report.
But before we dive in, just to level set, can you tell us what Businessolver’s definition of empathy is and how it applies to the workplace?
Rae:
Sure, I think that what we use in the survey is it’s the ability to understand and or experience the feelings or perspectives of another.
And I would even add on to that part of the way Brene Brown defines empathy is it’s without judgment. So, it’s understanding the perspectives of the other person without judgment so that we can be present and understand. Because don’t we all want to feel heard and understood?
Maria:
100%. And as we talk about on this show a lot, there’s so many benefits that organizations receive when they create an empathetic environment, when leaders and colleagues can be empathetic to each other. And what I love about your report is it really gives the data around what people are thinking and feeling in the workplace, what ways they can do their best work, and to really give leaders a guide.
So, I want to get into part one of the report, titled, Empathy Under Pressure. And I know the findings were really impactful to me in my work. And I feel like every leader in an organization needs to know about these findings. So how and why is empathy under pressure according to your findings?
Rae:
Well, you know, we do this every year right around January, February of each year. And, you know, if we think back to what was going on earlier this year, you know, we’re dealing with heightened political, social state. There was still pressure for people to be returning to the office, you know, and a side note, I hate it when they say people say ‘return to work’ because that’s meaning that if people work from home, it’s not real work, right? We’ll talk more about that. But.
Maria:
Yeah, right.
Rae:
But I think somewhat like 65% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. it’s hard on businesses and, you know, CEOs have to run a business. And I think sometimes they confuse running a business, but they can still be empathetic and run a business and deliver for their shareholders.
Maria:
Yeah, it’s definitely both and, not either or. And so where do you see that pressure coming from?
Rae:
Yeah, you know, I think it’s the pressure to perform. And if we think about it from a CEO perspective, which I think is where we saw a lot of the numbers this year really, I think that we really want to spend some time on, is if you think about CEOs by who they are, they’re on top because they’ve performed. And they have been able to fix it. They’ve been able to take care of business and they’ve been right.
So, it’s really, I think sometimes it’s hard for CEOs to take a step back and be a little vulnerable and model some of the empathetic behaviors.
Maria:
Yeah. And you know, there’s a changing workplace culture paradigm. There’s a changing leadership paradigm. And I have a lot of empathy for those leaders who are sort of like, wait, what? Like now the rules are changing on me and all these things that I was told my entire career that would get me to success, you know, I’m being told, no, I should get personal at work, and I should get to know people. And back in the, back in the day, I was told not to do those things.
So, I have a lot of empathy for them where we’re kind of going, okay, now that you’re at the top, we’re going to change the rules of the game.
And it’s good that we’re changing those rules, but they need to get their footing a little bit there.
So, speaking of that, on the other end of the spectrum is the younger people entering the workforce and Gen Z. So, let’s talk a little bit about the Gen Z findings of the report. You mentioned 50% of employees cite a mental health issue in the past year. And the report goes into detail about 65% of Gen Z cited a mental health issue, nearly twice the amount of baby boomers, which is huge. And Gen Z is also the most likely to say the workplace is toxic.
So, what do you make of those findings?
Rae:
Well, having a Gen Z son and hanging out with some of those Gen Zs, what I love about it is they’re just very open and they’re not afraid to say what’s on their mind. They’re not afraid to share. I think that we have a lot of sharing. I’m one year away from being a baby boomer. So, Maria, when you talk about, you know, the difference between baby boomers. Yeah, there was a time where, my gosh, would I ever admit a weakness? Would I ever actually show vulnerability and that I was nervous or concerned or anything like that or share a mental health issue?
And so, I think it’s just a very distinct line that they grew up being in a very social world where everybody knows everything. I think we felt that and kind of felt that in dealing with Gen Zs, but the results really did back that up.
Maria:
Yeah. I mean, they’ve grown up with transparency and vulnerability, as you said, and I think that’s kind of getting back to the rules have changed. Because I’m Gen X and we were told not to. We were told to pretend we had all the answers and to do things ourselves and to just put our heads down and get the work done. No matter what we were feeling that day, right? People didn’t care about, and not for any bad reason. was just, you don’t bring that into the workplace kind of a situation.
And luckily, we’ve started to realize that actually you can’t just park your humanity at the door when you go to the office. So we have to make room for that and really understand if we want to achieve our goals, if we want to actually get work done and be high performing. it’s not just about coddling, as a lot of people like to say.
Rae:
Right. Right.
Maria:
So let’s circle back to your CEO findings, which were very alarming. And I love this quote from one of the CEOs you interviewed.
They said, ‘I do have a life outside of work. They only see me in one thing. I would like to be seen as a bigger person. I work really, really long hours and I would like them to know that I’m more than just a CEO. I’m a father, I’m a husband, I’m a fisherman, I’m a shitty golfer.’
What do you think is happening with CEOs?
Rae:
Wow. Well, I happen to be married to one, so I have a little perspective I can potentially share. But they’re under just tremendous pressure to keep their orgs running, keep running lean to deliver for their shareholders. And what I think is enlightening is between that quote and then also for the first time we had a, I think more than half of the CEOs have said that they had a mental health issue and that’s up 24 points in over a year.
So, when I saw it, when I first saw that, was like, Whoa. And then I said, you know what? This is great. What this is telling me is that by that number of people expressing as a CEO that they’ve had a mental health issue, think we’re making progress on seeing some more vulnerability.
And because, you know, anytime I’m a big believer before you can have behavioral change, you first got to accept something, acknowledge it before you can start to have change.
So, when I saw that number, I thought, wow, an increase of 24 points means that we’ve either we’ve made some progress on at least accepting that its thing, that its a real thing. And so now hopefully we can start to make some progress. And I think that’s an important step in bringing empathy into the workplace for those CEOs.
Maria:
Well, and know you and I have talked about this, that I don’t know that it’s actually, I mean, it probably has increased given all the issues you named earlier about the current environment we’re in. But I just, like you, I feel like actually it’s more people are admitting it. Like maybe they always were suffering from it, but you weren’t supposed to admit it in the workplace.
And so to your point, I think it is very encouraging that, you know, the first step in recovering and healing and getting past something is admitting there’s a problem. And I like that we’re, like that Gen Z is pushing us to be more transparent and open about those things, right?
Rae:
Right? Maybe. Hey, that’s a positive. I like it. I like it. Yes, yes.
Maria:
Yeah, yeah. And so, and it doesn’t mean everything falls apart and we stop producing, we stop being efficient, we stop, you know, all of these things. It just means now we can recognize and admit the elephant in the room, and then we can figure out a way to get beyond it.
I love that.
Rae:
I like it. Yes, yes.
Maria:
All right. So your study also found a relationship between mental issues and workplace toxicity. And I have a few things to say about workplace toxicity, but can you tell us more about that? What is that link?
Rae:
Well, I mean, it’s kind of logical, right? If a toxic workplace where there’s fear in the workplace, there’s fear of retribution, there’s, you don’t have your, it’s not a safe psychological environment. I would expect that there would be more mental health issues if they cite, right, a toxic workplace.
Maria:
Mm -hmm.
Rae:
So, I’d love to hear, I know you’ve written books and you’ve done a lot, you know, really about that toxicity. So, I’d love to hear what you have to say, Maria.
Maria:
Yeah, I mean, it’s just they go hand in hand. And I think we underestimate the personal mental health toll that a tough workplace can have on someone. And as someone who has worked under two psychologically abusive managers, and I don’t use that term dramatically, it impacted every aspect of my life. It impacted my health. It impacted my sleep. It impacted my mood and emotions and my desire to engage, my desire to actually do my best work in those environments.
And what those managers were trying to do, they were trying to get the best work out of me, but they were doing it in a way where it was impossible for a human to deliver their best work in that environment, right?
And I think that’s what we’re learning more of is that, cognitively, like brain science tells us our brains shut down, our ability, our executive functions, our ability to innovate and create and collaborate and think is impacted when we’re living in fear or we’re living or working in an environment that doesn’t feel safe for us.
And so that is actually the opposite of what a manager should want. You want your people at their best, at their sharpest, at their most creative so that everyone can get their bonus next year. And so, I think that really calling that out, in which the report does a great job of showing that corollary, is that the ways that we think we’re getting the most out of people are actually hurting our organizations, not helping.
So, love that.
Now, do you think that that spike in mental health issues and that naming of the workplace as toxic is also related to the return to office push? Do you think there’s a relationship there?
Rae:
I mean, it certainly could be. If people were functioning well, working remotely, they’re getting their jobs done and delivering, telling them that they weren’t, by saying we need to return to the office means that we can’t trust you as an adult to continue to do your work.
And I have to say, again, from our organization, we were a absolute ‘be in the office all the time’ company. It took an act of something for our CEO to approve people in a non-sales job to work remotely.
And I’ll tell you what, you know, one of the things that I think is so important for CEOs, I mean, in all of us in general, but is the concept of holding your ideas lightly. Things can change. When proven data, when given data points, when, you know, it’s okay to say ‘I changed my mind.’
Right? And, you know, five years ago, I didn’t like broccoli, and you know, I like it again, you know, and, and we, we, we can’t be so hard on people for changing their minds.
So, where I was going with that is, you know, once we, as an organization had, you know, a year or two under our belt of working remotely, the data points showed that our employees were more engaged. We had lower employee turnover. We were able to hire a more diverse workforce. We had a higher, what we call pulse score and delivering to our clients.
You know, our CEO said, you know what? I was wrong before and, and we’re going to stay a completely remote environment.
And I think that more times that CEOs can be okay with changing direction, admitting that, ‘Hey, this was, this was, I wasn’t thinking about this,’ right. It’s part of showing that vulnerability, which then can help an organization embrace that and really eliminate some of the fear.
Maria:
Yeah, that resilience and that adaptability is huge. And we saw that people were able to innovate and perform when they worked remotely. Maybe not in every single 100% of the circumstances. It depends on your job, right? But then to expect people to immediately go back is like, well, wait a minute. I see that there’s another way to do this. I see that there’s another way for me to deliver for the organization.
And I think a lot of it is the discomfort of leaders in leading in that environment. When they had to, they had to, because it was a crisis. It was emergency. Everyone was under lockdown. But now that they have a choice, some of them are going back to what they know, which is the status quo. It’s like, I only know how to lead people when I can see them all under one roof. And that’s what I mean about the unlearning, the thing that it’s like, but it was always this way.
And that resilience is really gonna help organizations perform and lead in the market if they can understand that the needs of their people have changed. And it’s not about them demanding something unreasonable. It’s that they’ve seen a way to work. They accomplished it. They did it that way. And it’s like, hey, we know this works now. So, I think that’s so important. I thought it was really interesting about CEOs.
And, I thought it was really interesting about CEOs, 80% of them say that being empathetic, okay, and you know this is like my hot spot, right? Being empathetic means being nice to others all the time versus 55% of employees and 62% of HR. And this quote was great: ‘I thought empathy was sending flowers when someone was sick, doing something along those lines, more sympathy than empathy.’
And you know my rant about empathy is not about being nice. So, it kind of begs the question, and I think I know the answer, do you believe that most CEOs understand what empathy is and what it isn’t?
Rae:
I don’t, I don’t. And it really starts with having a common language. An organization needs to have a common language and common definitions of things like empathy, feedback. And I can’t believe that even in this day that there’s that hybrid percentage that talk about being nice.
I think over the last three years, and you’re one of them, there have been over 300 books published on empathy. I mean, it’s definitely something that’s out there. And I think there’s some CEOs that really grasp it. But it shouldn’t be this hard to be able to pause, listen, and appreciate where someone’s coming from.
Maria:
Right.
And still be able to make tough decisions while you do that. I have often said it’s a mindset. It’s taking the other person’s perspective, seeing things through their perspective, but it doesn’t mean you change your mind. It doesn’t mean you change the business decision. It doesn’t mean that you avoid tough conversations like, you know, difficult performance reviews.
Rae:
Right.
Maria:
It just means it’s your way of operating with someone and your way of interacting with someone. And it’s not enough to be nice. Because as you’ve always heard me say someone could bake really good cookies and bring them to the office, but it doesn’t mean they see my point of view. And it doesn’t mean they’re with me in, you know, what do I need to be successful? What do I need to feel heard?
So, while being nice is great, we can’t just like nice our way to empathy, right? And so I feel like there’s also that stigma around, ‘Well, I’m just not overly emotional’ or ‘I’m not touchy feely,’ which again, I’m out there doing workshops and trainings, you’re out there with the report talking about that, that’s not what we’re saying empathy is.
But given that stigma, or speaking of stigmas I should say, a strong mental health stigma also exists, according to the report. And the study showed that CEOs (81%), HR (72%), and employees (675) all agree that companies view someone with mental health issues as weak or a burden. So what do you think are some of the key things driving those stigmas?
Rae:
That people are perceived as being weak, they’re a burden, they are a pushover. And I think that’s really, really unfortunate. Just because I have a mental health issue doesn’t mean that I can’t still be a very productive employee.
It should not hold people back. The same reason is just because I’m not working in an office and I can’t interact with a senior executive doesn’t mean that I can’t still be a great leader within the organization. So, it’s disappointing to hear that or understand that some people feel that empathy doesn’t have a place in the workplace. hopefully we can both be changing this.
Maria:
Yeah, absolutely. Again, it’s that both and, and really, I think a lot of it is misunderstanding of what mental health issues are, just like it’s about a misunderstanding of what empathy actually is. And I think once people get educated on those actual definitions and what they mean, and as they get exposed to more people that are, whether it’s people with mental health issues that are still performing at amazing levels, or whether it’s leaders that are highly empathetic, but also highly ambitious and highly successful, that will hopefully change those stigmas to say, can be both and.
Rae:
Yeah, we really need to get rid of the, I think that the stigmas create a fear -based environment and people cannot be their best selves if they’re in a fear, an environment of fear.
Maria:
Yeah. And so do you have some tips on what employers can do to break those stigmas?
Rae:
I mean, it’s going to sound so simple, Maria, and I’m sure you can add on to it.
Maria:
And hard at the same time.
Rae:
But it’s about being authentic. It’s about being real. It’s about how I started this with adding on to our definition of empathy, of things without judgment. So, one of the things in the study employs value in open door policy. An open door policy means that there’s a two-way street, that you can listen as well as provide feedback. And I think the sooner we can grasp that people want to bring their whole selves to work, that they come from different perspectives, is the way that we can break down some of those stigmas.
Maria:
Right, and even your story about Businessolver itself, being resilient and listening to people, goes a long way to creating that interaction and that dialogue and that listening so that we get to know people and understand how they work best.
Rae:
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, using that concept that I said about holding our ideas lightly, keeping an open mind, being able to appreciate where people are coming from can go a long way toward helping people feel heard in the end.
Again, employees, clients, you know, people, they want to feel heard and, empathy I think is a key way to be able to do that.
Maria:
Absolutely. And I know in this conversation, we’ve only scratched the surface of the findings of the report, but we’re going to pick up next month with this bonus episode and actually talk about a game plan to put empathy into action.
So, folks will want to tune into that second bonus episode. We’re going to dive into how organizations can really create more empathy. What are the things they can do?
I just, this is so much great information and I hope people will check out the report for themselves because there’s so much more goodness in there. We’ve run out of time today, but next month, I’m, as I said, I’m hosting you again.
And I just want to thank people for listening to this bonus episode and encourage you if you are listening to tune into more content from Businessolver and the work they’re doing, how they’re using their technology to create empathetic environments in organizations, and also listen to their vodcast, Benefits Pulse, which can be found at Businesssolver.com/benefits-pulse. So that’s, that will be in the show notes as always. and you can also stay in touch by signing up for email with business solver or following them on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram to get the latest episode information for their vodcast, Benefits Pulse.
Thank you so much, Rae, for your time today and your insights. And thank you, everyone, for listening to this bonus episode of the Empathy Edge. Remember, if you like what you heard, rate and review it, share it with a friend or colleague. And until next time and next month with Rae, remember that cashflow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
Rae:
Thank you, Maria.
