There is a lot of talk about how creativity and collaboration “should” be done these days. Some say processes are stifling. Others say you have to all be in the same office to collaborate effectively. Today’s conversation will offer you a different take on how collaboration can actually lead to the most creative solutions on the planet.
Today, I spoke with Laetro co-founder and firmer Disney creative, Dave Zaboski! We talked about what Disney taught him about effective collaboration, including the idea of “plussing” to ensure the best outcome. He candidly shares how process and structure don’t stifle creativity but ensure it’s repeatable, and actually helps creatives get good work out into the world. We talk about the unique position we are in as humans to tell stories, the role mission plays in mobilizing a team, and how empathy is required by artists. Dave also gives his take on AI and creative technology and where the dangers and opportunities lie.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Solutions can and should be beautiful. Beauty is created when you add to others, not when you are negative to them.
- Empathy in creativity allows bridges to be built and connections to be made between different experiences of different people.
- Storytelling is a power – stories create our reality. What would happen if we stop telling the apocalypse stories, and start to use the technology in the stories to enable society to flourish.
- There is process and structure, even in creativity. It is not a bad thing, it is a way to get replicable results no matter what industry you are in. Rules are necessary for creativity to flourish.
“Creativity, innovation, the advancement of ideas and collaboration happen on both sides of the brain. In order to be able to create powerfully, it’s got to be the head, heart and hands.”
— Dave Zaboski
About Dave Zaboski, Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer, Laetro.com
Dave Zaboski is the co-founder and Chief Creative Officer of Laetro.com, a tech-enabled community of the world’s finest creatives serving enterprise customers with best-in-class design services. He is a classically trained painter and was an animator at Disney, Sony, and Warner Bros. during the Second Golden Age of Animation. He worked on “Beauty and the Beast,” “The Lion King,” “Pocahontas,” “Aladdin,” “The Hunchback of Notre Dame,” “Hercules,” “Fantasia 2000,” and others. He has illustrated several acclaimed children’s books, including titles for Dr. Ken Dychtwald, Dr. Deepak Chopra, finance guru Ric Edelman, and actor Paul Michael Glaser.
Dave has created concept art for film and television, shown his fine art at galleries internationally, been the expedition artist in search of a lost temple in the Andes, and painted for the Dalai Lama. Along with teaching workshops at retreat centers like Esalen Institute, Summit, and Rancho La Puerta, Dave also contributed as a faculty member at Singularity University and NextMed Health Conferences. Dave teaches creativity, leadership, innovation, and collaboration to entrepreneurs, makers, and organizations around the world. He lives with his wife, Robin, and a small menagerie on a ranchette in Southern California.
Connect with Dave Zaboski:
Laetro.com: Laetro.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/davezaboski/
Instagram: instagram.com/davezart
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. There is a lot of talk about how creativity and collaboration should be done these days. Some say processes are stifling. Others say you have to be all in the same office to collaborate effectively. Today’s conversation will offer you a different take on how collaboration can actually lead to the most creative solutions on the planet. And why it has nothing to do with four walls or the latest AI tool. You’ll absolutely love Dave’s a Bosque and not just because he had a hand in some of my favorite Disney films of all time, but in how he looks at creativity. And as he says turning a thought into a thing. Dave is the co founder and Chief Creative Officer of Laetro.com, a tech enabled community of the world’s finest creatives, serving enterprise customers with best in class design services. He’s a classically trained painter and was an animator at Disney, Sony and Warner Brothers. During the second golden age of animation. He worked on Beauty and the Beast one of my faves, The Lion King Pocahontas, Aladdin, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules, Fantasia 2000, and others. He has illustrated several acclaimed children’s books including titles for Dr. Deepak Chopra, finance guru Rick Adelman, and actor Paul Michael Glaser. Dave has created concept art for film and television shown his fine art galleries at international places worldwide, and been the expedition artist in search of a Lost Temple in the Andes, and painted for the Dalai Lama. Now, he teaches workshops on creativity, leadership, innovation and collaboration to entrepreneurs, makers and organizations around the world. We talked today about what Disney taught him about effective collaboration, including the idea of plussing to ensure the best outcome, he candidly shares how process and structure don’t stifle creativity, but ensure it’s repeatable, and actually helps creatives get good work out into the world. We talk about the unique position we’re in as humans to tell stories, the role mission plays in mobilizing a team, and how empathy is required by artists. But it doesn’t mean we have to have had the similar experience. If we connect with our hearts rather than just our heads. Dave shares some charming anecdotes from his Disney days, and also gives his take on AI and creative technology and where the dangers and opportunities lie. I hope you enjoy today’s episode as much as I did take a listen. Welcome to the show, Dave. I’m so happy to have you on the empathy edge podcast today.
Dave Zaboski 04:27
Maria, it’s my pleasure.
Maria Ross 04:28
I’m delighted to be here. Well, and we were just talking before we started recording that you have been a part of some of my most favorite heartwarming Disney films, beauty of the beast, Lion King, all of them and I’m just so amazed by the depth and breadth of your career and what you’ve been exposed to. So having this conversation around empathy and collaboration, and being able to be creative with different perspectives is so important and just You’re the perfect person to talk about this with so Before we dive into the topic at hand, I mean, tell us a little bit about how you got into animation and how you got to where the work you’re doing now, for enterprise customers,
Dave Zaboski 05:10
right? Well, just to briefly encapsulate, I have done a universal drawing in my life. I picked up a crayon when I was a kid, and I don’t think I ever put it down. But I got a D plus in high school art, for various reasons. You know, it’s just like, I almost contend that like, the greatest challenge to any artist is an art teacher. And so I kind of put it away, I went to college, I went to UC Santa Barbara, I got a couple of degrees in psychology and French literature, and then just did paintings and drawings for my friends. I come from a big Jewish family in Los Angeles that says, Well, you know, you graduated from college, you can do anything you want in your life, what kind of doctor or lawyer is that going to be? And so I explored going into law, I got a I took the LSAT, I got a job in a big law firm in Los Angeles, I was living in Beverly Hills, I had an office on the 42nd floor of this building. And I kind of hated every minute of it, and realize that maybe if I face this way, and that’s law, what do I see if I face the other way. And so I turned around, because I really wanted to be at the fulcrum point of my life. You know, in law, there’s a lot of precedent, there’s a lot of things that that it just didn’t feel very imaginative, especially in the firm that I was in, I imagine it’s possible in other firms. But in the one I was in it, just imagination didn’t matter. And I wanted to be at that place where the pencil met the paper. So I turned around, and there was art school. So I collected all the drawings and paintings I’d done for my friends for their birthdays, took it to Art Center College of Design, and then got in. I never looked back, like that was so exciting to me, that an internship there that was kind of like a Project Runway internship for Disney Animation Studios. And on my third attempt at it, you know, I mean, I think persistence is important. I got into Disney. And when I got in, I could draw, but I didn’t know anything about animation. And the artist development program, there was so amazing, because it was not just about the principles of animation was about the principles of the animator, so not just how to make things, but how to make the maker. And that is sort of like you know, a basketball player who also was a student of the game. And for me, that was something that was really powerful to be able to really learn about, not just how to turn a thought into a thing. But all of the studies, all of the like I think I was mentioning before we started, you know, I can actually trace my teachers back to the Renaissance, all of the studies, the knowledge that has been gathered. And that was super fascinating to me. So when I left Disney, I started teaching that stuff, I became a kind of consultant and also almost accidental consultant. But the stuff that I have to share comes from a kind of parallel path to all the entrepreneurial wisdom that starts with Napoleon Hill and ends at Simon Sinek. It’s a completely different parallel path to turning a thought into a thing at the level of imagination that I think maps really nicely onto the entrepreneurial journey. And so I started training that teaching that Consulting at places ended up consulting in places like Google and Singularity University. And that’s where I met my co founder, where we looked at the ecosystem of creatives in both the tech industry and the animation and entertainment industry and realize that they could use some help. So we created a company called . That’s la e tr O stands for maestro’s of light, to be able to help creatives get good work in the world, our mission there is to see creatives flourish. And so that sort of is where we’re at right now. And I find myself a kind of a, you know, an accidental tech Exec. You know, bonafide Silicon Valley startup. I’m sort of like a ballet dancer that’s now running the company.
Maria Ross 08:50
I love it. I love it so much. And you know what’s really fascinating, there’s so many angles where we can start this conversation. But I would like to talk about your experience at Disney in the golden age of animation and what we can learn leaders like us in the tech industry in other industries, maybe not even leaders, but individual contributors. What can we learn from Disney about the processes for collaboration there? What are some key highlights and insights that you learned about how to collaborate effectively together with especially in what can be very large teams?
Dave Zaboski 09:26
Right, not only large teams, but incredibly eclectic teams, like the artists at Disney were imagined the best doodlers from any high school in the world, right. Like I was one of them. I got a D plus for doodling too much even in my art class.
Maria Ross 09:41
My son will be very happy to hear this because he got in trouble for doodling all over his homework. So yeah.
Dave Zaboski 09:48
So yeah, I’ll be happy to talk to him. I’ve got stories. So you have these wild horses, how do you get them all pointed in the same direction? So here’s something that I found that becomes really valuable in I think any industry. And that is the recognition that creativity, innovation, the advancement of ideas and collaboration happen on, you know what we might call both sides of the brain. Or you might call it that there’s the head, heart and hands, in order to be able to create powerfully, it cannot just be the head, it cannot just be the hands, it’s got to be the head, heart and hand. And so what we recognize really early at Disney, was that if you were negatively critical of a creative process, then that kind of hurt the heart side of things, you know, the mind can maybe not take it so personally in the hands have their own skills, but the heart can get hurt. And when the heart hurts, it doesn’t create as well. So you can’t tell a creative person that they suck, or that the product that they created sucked, and get good work out of them. It kind of short circuits, the operations system of the heart that operates on a motion, and we need those emotions to be able to create powerfully because the thing we’re creating has to resonate with other humans. And so if you’re just building a bridge, I suppose, maybe not so much, but it still has to solve for some things. And even then, Buckminster Fuller said, that if something you need to solve for something, I’m going to paraphrase this and butcher it. But the idea is that as a solution, if it doesn’t have beauty to it is not a complete solution. And so, when you are additive to people, then you keep the heart healthy, that head heart enhance aspect stays healthier. And so when you can be additive in the creative process, then you allow for all of those things to be able to find a way to flourish. And so at Disney, we had this term called plussing to plus someone was to be in service, an additive service to the trick highest trajectory of an idea, not the ego that brought it not, you know, not the particulars of this idea. But like, how do you get this idea to have its highest trajectory. And so plussing was a term that was not only a tool for collaboration, but it was a cultural piece. And that was what was so exciting. Because when you get into a place where there’s permission to plus each other, and here’s the other piece of it. But you also have to tell a bigger story than anybody there. Right? So we all knew that we were telling a great big story of story that was going to impact culture. And I think in corporations, that’s also another thing that they can do. What’s the story that you’re telling, that’s bigger than anybody, so that they can find by him, they can find themselves in the story, and they can plus the story. So then plussing becomes this cultural piece, that when there’s permission to plus, oh my God, it is so much fun. Everybody is like, Hey, man, I learned this thing from this guy over here that I’m seeing might affect your stuff. Can I share it with you? You know, like, on Pocahontas, I have this scene where John Smith was saying, well, he’s kind of hanging from a tree that he’s just almost fallen out of right? When he’s talking to Pocahontas. And he says, Well, you know, it’s kind of like this. And he’s spinning his hand in a circle, giving a kind of gesture, with a hand is super hard to draw. Probably one of the hardest things in the world to draw AI still hasn’t figured it out. So I did a scene I did that scene, and one of my animator colleagues looked at it and he went, Hey, that scene looks great. Do you mind if I share with you what one of the nine Old Ben showed me about how to draw hands? Oh, my God. Yes, please. And so in five minutes, he changed my life. And now I know, like, you know, 30 years later, I’ve shared that 5000 times, you know. So that idea of passing becomes not just a moment passing throughout the day, but it becomes a cultural piece that allows for everybody to rise. And that’s really powerful.
Maria Ross 14:03
Well, and I love that that was clearly encouraged and celebrated in the culture because you might have a culture where people are hoarding information, they’re competitive. They don’t want to make your idea any better than it is because it detracts from them. What do you attribute the cultivation of that openness in the culture to? Was it training? Was it the people that Disney attracted, what do you think was the secret sauce there? Well,
Dave Zaboski 14:30
I think that culture is built from both sides of the company. It’s built from the top down, and it’s also built from the bottom up, you know, the Academie Francaise in France is always trying to affect language like you can’t have a Walkman you have to have a better Dell or you know, like that’s a they’d like they’d change the names of things. But the implementation of culture happens at the bottom of culture. So the lower level workers that’s where the implementation happens in the directives can come from the top But if they’re not aligned, they’re going to crash somewhere in the middle. And so, at Disney, it is said that Walt Disney himself coined the term plussing. And he even said that if you ever see two animators standing by the watercooler talking, let them talk because they’re probably working on making everything better. Right. So you have to have an understanding of the lower in the trenches, piece of culture. And you have to have the understanding from the top to allow that kind of plussing to happen. So plussing can be an overall rule, but you can’t as a leader go, Hey, here’s how I think
Maria Ross 15:36
you should plus start plussing. Yeah, right, right.
Dave Zaboski 15:39
Here’s how I’m gonna plus this, right. And that’s actually what broke plussing at Disney was ego and hubris from the top that believed that because they had greenlit the geniuses below them, that they were responsible for the success of those films.
Maria Ross 15:56
And oh my gosh, that’s such a great cautionary tale. And I liked I
Dave Zaboski 16:00
look at the gap between CEO pay and regular worker pay. And there’s this, it’s hard not to have those guys at the top kind of be ego involved, they’re making millions of dollars a year. And they think that they’re worth it and worth more than the workers at the bottom, that everybody’s building, whatever it is that you’re building, you can’t have one person make something that big. So culture has to be additive.
Maria Ross 16:25
And so, you know, obviously, in such a blatantly storytelling role as an animator, and you know, the work that you even do now helping organizations embrace design to I love that how you put this turning a thought into a thing? What was the role of empathy in that golden age? And what do you see as the role of empathy now in the most functional organizations that you work with, and they’re in for you? What’s the correlation between empathy and creativity?
Dave Zaboski 16:55
Wow, that’s a beautiful question. I think that they have to go together. That, you know, there are, I think, degrees of empathy or spectrum of empathy or echelons of empathy. I mentioned it, I like, as I see it, there’s sort of like, you know, empathy is a kind of listening. And so at what level? Are you listening at the corporate level, you’re listening to the product market fit? How do the consumers receive our message? Right? At the internal level, you’re listening for the systems and practices efficiency? And so how do our systems and practices what do you know? Do we use clickup? Monday Asana? What are the things that we use to be able to listen to our cohort so that they can effectively and efficiently solve for the challenges and tasks at hand? And then there’s the you know, next level down, which is sort of Team listening? And how do those teams operate? And then that how does that team listen to the other teams? You know, I think that is like turtles, it goes all the way down, you know? And then how do we listen to each other. And that’s why I think that plussing is such a powerful cultural piece, is that, you know, to plus, is to listen for the highest in the thing that you’re working on. And so even down at the personal level, if I have empathy for myself, if I’m listening for what I need, you know, I think that it’s a matter of understanding all of those points of you know, that ladder or the spiral, you know, from this sort of, you know, external all the way to the individual.
Maria Ross 18:39
Well, and would I, you know, again, in your work as a storyteller, it’s also about really understanding what you’re designing for the end user, for the audience, and not just, you know, you can tell those, I mean, I, as a parent, I can tell those animated films where they’re, they seem to be making it just for them, versus where they’re thinking through how a family or a child with a parent might be consuming the story. And I think what makes so many the best animated films, as an example, so powerful is they understand that there’s different people in the audience, and they create moments in the movie in the story that appeal to all of those audiences. I mean, how many great animated movies have we seen where there’s jokes, my kid doesn’t get that I guess, you know, and that I feel like that’s empathy that I mean, it’s user centered design, whatever you want to call it, but it’s intentionally thinking through, how is somebody consuming this on the other end? What is that experience? Like? It’s not just the eight year old child. It’s the six year old or the eight year old, with an adult in the room, potentially with a grandparent, you know, different generations. And so do you think that that now as you work with tech companies, do you find yourself in that storyteller role? I know when I’m doing brand strategy work? Getting them to actually change lenses and think about the consumers point of view the user’s point of view, do you find that a big part of your work and helping them create great design?
Dave Zaboski 20:12
Well, yes, but it starts before that. What makes something what makes something that I make resonate with you is that it totally resonated with me. And the more I can connect to my truth, and my authenticity, the more that thing that I create is going to resonate with your authenticity. Now, given that it’s not gonna resonate with everybody’s right, so you can’t sell one thing that goes to everybody. And so what I can do is create authentically, and trust that there’s other people who authentically resonate with that same feeling. And so when creation comes from that authentic place, then you’re actually getting to the deeper why of why people are creating in the first place. So what we typically do is we don’t just go for the story that’s going to resonate with a consumer, you go for story that’s going to resonate with you. And that way, you can stay in your own authenticity, and that becomes a gravity that attracts the consumers that will see what you’re creating as a gift that they will pay for. So that level of strategy is a little bit different than the sort of madman in a way, that’s kind of how the whole madman thing got started. And then it sort of got distorted. And now we’re in this place where we’ve fully structured data so that we can manipulate, we’re using all of these points of contact with the consumer. And then eventually, that all of that data is going to have to be run through a marketer and a creative so that they can find the resonance in themselves for the people that we’re hoping to be of service to, and not just sell to.
Maria Ross 21:55
I think that authenticity piece is so important. And how do you adjust when sometimes the audience that you are creating something for is not necessarily exactly like you? How do you is it just because it is authentic to you that that’s what resonates, whether it’s 100% applicable to the other person? On the other side? How do you adjust for diversity of experience within the audience that they might not be exactly like you?
Dave Zaboski 22:25
Right? Well, yeah, there’s sort of two answers to that. They’re all exactly like me and empathy. Right? So there’s this big thing going on in Hollywood right now. Like, if you haven’t had triplets, are you allowed to play a mom of triplets on TV? Right? Like, if you aren’t LGBTQ? Are you allowed to play that role on TV? You know, I can see the validity in it. And, you know, we’re actors. And so, you know, if you’re doing Yeah, I don’t know. So that’s a challenge. And because we’re creators, we can be empathetic, like, I can feel what’s going on with another person, and find that empathy. In the end, that becomes actually a kind of training. I’ll share with you an example, that I when I was an intern, it was a very competitive internship. And at the time, Disney was releasing movies every seven years, and they were releasing Jungle Book, which was one of my favorite movies. And so it came out during the time when I was an intern, there are 15 of us interns. And we all agreed that, okay, we’re going to take the afternoon off, and we’re all going to go watch Jungle Book together. It’s not, it’s like nobody can skip out and keep working on their projects. We’re all going to go as a group to go watch Jungle Book. And so I’m watching Jungle Book. And there’s these two kids behind me that are making a total ruckus, they’re jumping up and down, and they’re jumping on their seats, and their moms are sitting behind them. And I’m like, super frustrated that I’m hearing all these kids distracting me while I am studying Jungle Book, because I might be one of these animators and I’m sitting with my colleagues. And you know, I have my pencil out. And I’m furiously studying this as an academic. And these kids are super distracting. And I finally turn around to say something to their moms right at the moment when there’s the elephant parade. And the general elephant turns around and looks at Mowgli in his little friend, the elephant. And he gives them the scrunched up look with all of these lines, and it’s just this crazy look that he gives him and the kids, I look back and they’re standing on their chairs, and they get knocked back into their seats laughing by the drawing on the screen. And what I realized was that they were not misbehaving. This is probably the first big movie that they’d ever been to. They were completely involved in the show. And so I stopped being that, you know, sort of pretentious student of animation and was so enjoying the movie, because I learned from these young kids that that was the whole point of it. And so, in that space, you can see that some 55 year old artists made it Rolling 30 years ago that knocked these kids out of their seat. Now, that’s what’s possible with empathy.
Maria Ross 25:08
Was it the original? I’m just curious. Oh, yeah, they were seeing Yeah. Okay. I was gonna say because you were working on the remake version of it. Yes. No, I
Dave Zaboski 25:15
didn’t work on the remake of it. Oh, okay. So my movies were beating the Beast, Aladdin Lion King Pocahontas, Hunchback of Notre Dame God.
Maria Ross 25:21
So you were studying Jungle Book. Okay, now I was studying
Dave Zaboski 25:25
the old Jungle Book that had been made in 1968. And this is probably in 1993, or 94. Right? Wow. And so. So imagine that level of empathy that’s possible through the arts and through creativity is that some 55 year old, you know, white guy in 1966, who had the empathy and the chops creatively, to be able to make a drawing that 35 years later knocks some seven year olds off of their chair. Right, yeah. And so that’s what’s possible with empathy and creativity, we don’t have to necessarily have that same experience, to find it in ourselves to understand what it is. And that’s maybe the key to how culture can finally meet each other. We’re so separate right now we’re so like, this was my experience, and you can’t possibly understand. And I think that builds walls, not bridges. I think creativity is a place where we actually can find those bridges between hearts, because that’s where we’re playing from. And so I don’t have to have the experience of, you know, a person that’s different from me, to be able to empathize with the challenges, pains and trials that they go through, if I can really find my heart and their heart. And so that’s why I think that that is so important to keep that in place, especially in the tech industry, where we’re creating things in a way that comes from a philosophy of breaking things. And I think that, you know, maybe now it’s time to start fixing things, and we can break a lot of stuff with our mind, but maybe we can fix it with our hearts.
Maria Ross 27:12
Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Can you talk a little bit about speaking of that shift into tech, talk to us a little bit about the technology of creativity and what your take is on what’s happening? Is it in your opinion? Is it positive? Is it negative? Is it you know, cautionary? What do you see in terms of what’s on the horizon? And in the technology related to creativity,
Dave Zaboski 27:39
right? Well, let’s define technology. Technology is a system a tool or a practice that allows for predictive or replicable results, right, just as a definition, right. So technology is not necessarily something that you plug into the wall. A cup is technology is spoon is technology. Creativity is a technology as a creative, I have to have practices that allow for replicable results. You know, often it’s like, people go, Alright, we’re gonna do this, and this and this, and then we’re gonna give it to Dave. And then when Dave is done with his magic, then we’ll take this and this and this, and I’m kind of this black box for people. But for me, I have to have systems and practices that allow for whatever the inputs are to create outputs that match the success criteria of what we’re asking for. So there is a technology of creativity, there are tools, systems, practices, laws of creativity, as it pertains to the evolution of the plugged in technology, you know, like our tech enabled society?
Maria Ross 28:50
Well, I think like anything from like, the software to the apps to the AI, that’s enabling word, they’re saying that they are enabling technology, you know, you could look at Photoshop or Illustrator, or you could look at chat, GBT, or anything that helps someone create something that kind of plugged in technology,
Dave Zaboski 29:08
right? Yes. So let’s talk about technology to every piece of technology has to have rules of engagement, it has to have rules of how you use it, a spoon is used a certain way. Brushes are a technology, right? So I use a brush. But there’s a way that I use a brush. I can’t use the end of it or the side of it. There’s a particular way now I might in some innovative ways scratch to do these things. But this tool that I have, is has an optimum use of it. And I think that what’s the challenge right now, especially with things like AI, because I believe we’ve gone through a portal in the last couple of weeks. Chad GPT 3.5 was fair to middlin but it wasn’t replacing a lot of things chat. TPT for is pretty amazing. We have at our fingertips right now the totality of human information, you know, parentheses up to two When he’s 21, and we don’t have any rules for that brush. So I think that’s the challenge that we face right now is that we, as a culture, have not got a consensus on what’s ethical. We have too many fractions and too many dissatisfied people who are smart enough to do some damage. And it’s a lot easier to do damage than it is to, you know, it’s easier to poke a hole in a canvas than to make a painting on it. So you can use the brush in ways that are destructive, or ways that are constructive. And I think that for me, when it comes to artificial intelligence, which I think is a misnomer, it’s not really intelligence. It’s a kind of aggregation of the totality of human knowledge, it’s machine learning, that’s fine. If you want to call it intelligence, then you have to include the other intelligences that are out there in the world. ants, bees, ecosystems, watersheds, oceans, the planet may be itself, you know, you know that you can have one smart person, and maybe that’s the smartest person in the room. But three people are smarter, and 50 people are dumber. And so intelligence has also this sort of field of it. It’s not just a ladder that says that humans are at the top of it, and we’re going to make something artificial that matches us. So from a philosophical standpoint, like I sort of have a little bit different view of the multitudes of intelligences that we have an opportunity to connect with. From a tool standpoint, I think that the thing that we call artificial intelligence, we’re in an incredibly dangerous time with it right now. It’s sort of like giving a bunch of kids lightsabers, this tool has the ability to do a lot of good. I mean, you could ask chat, chi PT, to collect the works of Buddha, understand everything that Buddha has said in all of the treaties that ever been done with Buddha, and then ask it to respond to you, in the voice of Buddha for any question that you have. Imagine that. So here’s where I land on it. Maria, my provocation for all of these new tools for this brave new world is portal that we pass through is, what is it went well, that’s my provocation. We are storytellers. We have gotten very practice that telling the post apocalyptic story, it’s easiest, low hanging fruit. as storytellers, you have to know that there have been 100 million species on this planet, of which 90% have gone extinct 90% Of all the life and 2.5 billion years of the life that’s been on this planet that’s been privileged to breathe this air of swim in these waters and feel the rain is dead and gone, and never to return. One species in all of that time, have 100 million species tell stories. And that’s us. It is a one in 100 million power. And I think that if we recognize that when we recognize that power, that power that stories can create our reality. And then our provocation is what if this went well, then we can tell stories about AI, that we can speak to the Buddha, you can speak to your long lost grandparents, if you have data on them. People can speak to me in some future or you in some future with all of this data. What if it went well? What if you use these tools to help your business flourish to help your friends flourish? That’s where I think that this piece can go and it’s empathy and love that can really change the tide on it. You know, telling stories of the apocalypse make damaging things poking a hole through a canvas with a brush. That’s freakin easy. Big deal. The guys who went extinct all did that, you know, our one in 100 million species power to tell stories changes reality. And that’s why my provocation of what if it went well? How powerful of a storyteller Are you flex that muscle? Yeah, and then use these tools.
Maria Ross 34:14
Ah, so good. So, so good, because it is it’s, we act like the script is written. And it isn’t. And like you said, all of these things. Everything we create can be used for good or evil, everything. So it’s the lens through which we’re going to approach the story we tell about how we want to use that tool or that process. I do want to just quickly go back and just say how much I appreciate what you said earlier about. Even in creativity, you follow a process because in many workplaces, especially tech, you know, the idea of process or structure has been bastardized as being evil, it’s horrible, but then it’s just Chaos, right? And like you said, it’s not repeatable, it’s not replicable. And so I love that you as super creator, a super creative is like, yes, there is a process. It might not be like a flowchart. But there is a process involved in being able to create something. And what you said was, which was so pivotal to me, was in order to ensure the successful output, by however it’s defined, right. And when we sort of go, you know, wild west on things, that’s where you have disgruntled people, you have people not clear on their roles, you have people not understanding who’s making decisions. So you know, I’m all for dismantling hierarchy that is negative hierarchy. But process gets a bad rap. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing.
Dave Zaboski 35:50
We’ll just complete No, it’s not a bad thing. It’s, it’s how you get from one point to the next, you know, I asked chat GPT to write 800 word essay on creativity, using the current things and I’ve taken a prompt engineering class like I’m into this, right, I’m like, I need to know what this tool is. I might proficient digital painter, I’m speaking to you on a Wacom tablet. Like I these are all brushes, right? It’s my creativity. That’s the source. And then all of these things are tools that I use. So I asked chap CPT to write an essay on creativity. And it wrote four times in a six or 800 word essay to think outside of the box. Oh, my God, that is such a stick. That’s not only is it ridiculous, but it’s also wrong. Like this idea of thinking outside of the box. What does that even mean? It’s now become such a cliche that it’s used in a way that’s like, I don’t know, trying to stop a tornado with a feather. You’re early not saying anything. It’s not effective. Yeah, in fact, the opposite is true. I don’t want to think outside of the box, tell me what my parameters are. Let’s clarify what the box is. And I will give you a frickin beautiful box. Yeah, right. Like you look at basketball, there’s a whole box that they have to go in. But the ball has to go through a hoop. Right? How it gets through that hoop? Well, there’s a lot of different ways. And there’s a ton of different strategies. And there’s a freakin million ways that it got there. But it always has to go through that hoop. And there are rules to get it to that hoop. So you can’t just keep walking and take a ladder, you’ve got to have some parameters for it. And creating is the same. You can’t just say, think outside of the box, you have to know even if you want it to you have to know what the box is, you know, you can see behind me, I don’t know or this can, but there’s easels and paintings, you know, that there’s imagination, projecting from these paintings, but they’re on a rectilinear surface, you know, like, I can’t just keep painting over the walls. You know, there are rules that are necessary for creativity to flourish. And thinking outside of the box is just a ridiculous statement. You have to have parameters. It’s a technology.
Maria Ross 38:01
I love it. I love it so much. Dave, thank you so much for sharing your insights and your work and your fascinating career history. And especially what you’ve learned about the rules of collaboration and empathy and being able to be understanding, I will have all your links in the show notes for everyone listening, but just real quickly, for anyone on the go, where’s the best place they can find out more about you and connect with you. Alright, let
Dave Zaboski 38:25
me tell you, but if it’s okay, I want to just drop one last little thing if that’s all right. It’s just about love that anybody who’s good at anything they got there because of love. And so that’s all I just want to say that even in the technology world if you’re going to be good at something love has to be present. LinkedIn, Dave Zaboski at LinkedIn is probably the best place to connect with me.
Maria Ross 38:47
Awesome. Thank you so much, Dave. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or colleague. You can find me on Instagram at Red slice Maria would love to hear from you. And you can follow me there for all the latest shenanigans. But until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathyedge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
