Oh the price we’ve paid – as both black and white people – because of racism. If we truly want to achieve racial solidarity, we have to start by talking about race, not racism. My guest today Daniel Jahn, DJ for short, has been involved with racial justice and solidarity work for 25 years.
Today, DJ offers us a history lesson about where the concept of race comes from and the real motive behind why it was created. We discuss the evolution of the psychology of racism, and the inner work both black and white people need to do to find unity. DJ’s approach is all about unity and what we can create together, rather than what we fight against. DJ shares his epiphany that we are all healing from racism: what it did to our society, the boxes it put us in, the division it caused, the narratives it created – and how we can do deep inner work to explore how racism has harmed us and how we can heal from it. We also explored the question: What does the world look and feel like if racism no longer exists? And why it’s better for us to have conversations about race, rather than racism. I was so moved by today’s talk and can’t wait to do more work on this journey to create a more equitable and inclusive world – hope you are excited as well!
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- The purpose of creating race, about 315 years ago, was to create “whiteness” and an us-them dynamic.
- We don’t learn about race. We learn about racism, but we do not understand, grow or learn about race. Most of America, not just white folks, don’t understand our racial history, or our racial disconnect.
- Nobody is trying to usurp anyone else, we are just trying to create unity, equity, and harmony among people.
- We all have work to do to end racism. That work will vary based on our racial perspectives.
“For me, ending racism is eradicating the value that is tied to race. We still have racial differences, we still value our uniqueness and our differences, but we all see each other as Americans.”
— Daniel Jahn
About Daniel Jahn, Racial Solidarity Trainer:
Daniel Jahn has served on several nonprofit Boards focused on the development of black youth and school-based racial equity teams. He was a member of the National Strength and Conditioning’s Diversity Taskforce, the National High School Strength Coaches Unity Team and a founding participant in the Groundbreakers program focused on mentorship of black and brown boys. He’s presented nationally several times on issues of race in the performance training field, as well as consulted with schools and companies on their diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) work. Together, with his family, he helped found the David Jahn Memorial Sailing Scholarship Fund to provide opportunities for youth of color to sail. He is deeply committed to the mission and vision of the Soul Focused Group and believes its model to be the true path to racial unity and equity now and in the years to come.
Connect with Daniel Jahn:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daniel_jahn/
Soul Focused Group: https://soulfocusedgroup.com/
Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria’s brand strategy work and books: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Twitter: @redslice
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
All the price we’ve paid as both black and white people because of racism. If we truly want to achieve racial solidarity, we have to start by talking about race, not racism. My guest today, Daniel, John DJ, for short, has been involved with racial justice and solidarity work for 25 years. He’s done workshops, speaking events, been on nonprofit boards, racial equity teams, diversity task forces, Unity teams, and many more. He owns a gym and has been a sports performance coach for 22 years as well. But his journey progressed when he became a trainer and consultant with soul focused group, which facilitates workshops and consulting for organizations seeking to move beyond racism and into power. Today, DJ offers us a history lesson about where the concept of race comes from, and the real motive behind why it was created. We discussed the evolution of the psychology of racism, and the inner work both black and white people need to do to find unity. deejays approach is all about unity and what we can create together, rather than what we fight against. DJ shares his epiphany that we’re all healing from racism, what it did to our society, the boxes it puts us in the division it’s caused, the narratives it’s created, and how we can do deep inner work to explore how racism has harmed us, and how we can heal from it. We also explored the question, what does the world look like and feel like if racism no longer exists? And why is it better for us to have conversations about race rather than racism? I was so moved by today’s talk, and I can’t wait to do more work on this journey to create a more equitable and inclusive world. Hope you’re excited as well.
Maria Ross 03:14
Let’s get connected. If you’re loving this content, don’t forget to go to the empathy edge.com. And sign up for the email list to get free resources and more empathy infused success tips, and find out how you can book me as a speaker. I want to hear how empathy is helping you be more successful. So please sign up now at V empathy edge.com. Oh, and follow me on Instagram where I’m always posting all the things for you at Red slice Maria.
Maria Ross 03:50
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, Daniel John, otherwise known as DJ, so excited to have this conversation with you about racial solidarity and the role empathy can play in bridging some of those divides. Welcome.
Daniel Jahn 04:02
Thank you. Thank you. I’m very excited to be here. I’m always excited to talk about the topic. So
Maria Ross 04:07
Yeah, we, we had such a great pre interview, which we actually should have recorded that because it was it was awesome. So, much good stuff. Yeah, you know, you, you are a gym owner by day and I feel like a racial solidarity leader and activist, also by day and night. So, tell us how you even got to this work. And your personal story related to how you got to this work? For sure. A teaser. Yeah, and you’re working now with soul focus group, which is an organization that that does facilitation of human solidarity workshops for organizations, just for folks who can’t see you right now. Can you just tell us a little bit about your background and how your parents got into all this work as well?
Daniel Jahn 04:32
For sure. Yeah. So, I was 18 years old, and I was a senior in high school and I did a workshop with a group called the People’s Institute for undoing structural racism. And I just kind of fell in love with it. I guess, precluded that. My you know, my parents have always been very heavily involved in the movement, you know, for racial justice, and we kind of came up learning me at my sister and I grew up learning you know all about got it. And so, it was kind of a natural flow. And so, I, I also played baseball. And so, I got a scholarship to play at the University of Washington. And I went in, you know, it’s kind of thinking that, like, I started out as a physics and math and double major and think, okay, like science, you know, this history, sociology, racial justice stuff is fun, but I don’t really know. And I’m just all about playing ball, right? So, after my junior year, I was medically disqualified, I got got injured. And at that point in time, I had, I was almost done with a history, history degree and associate sociology degree and a minor in physics. And they, at the time, I got injured, they said, Well, you know, we really want you around, we want you to coach. And so, I actually got hired as a strength and conditioning coach at the University of Washington. So that threw me into the world of anatomy, kinase, and physiology and biomechanics. And, you know, it was great, it was, you know, I love training, I love coaching and, you know, working with athletes and whatnot. And so, what I ended up doing is because I’ve always had this passion for, you know, racial solidarity work and racial unity work, I would just volunteer, you know, so I, you know, served on several boards, and I did work in the community and did mentorship work, and just so on and on, I continued, just helping in that arena. And I actually left the university at the University of Washington in 2006, to start my own business, and it’s been going for about 15 years now. So, the, the gym, yeah, the gym by day, Rachel unity, work by day at night is a great way to describe it. But you know, I’ll leap forward a little bit, Maria on this, because it’s actually one of the reasons that I find myself here with you is that, you know, this gym has given me a space to connect with people. And really, understanding race is all about connection. And so, you know, after George Floyd happened, everybody wanted to talk, and it because it was, you know, a natural fit for me. You know, I loved it, I welcomed it, I invited it, you know, in and, and any opportunity I had, I chatted with people. And so, I ended up doing a Instagram Live with one of my clients who had like, a million and a half followers. And so there was like, 100, some 1000 people watched it. And so, after that, what they, you know, like, she just kind of convinced me to start my own Instagram saying, Okay, well, you know, people need to, you know, hear this more and get involved with this more and more engaged. And so, I did. And so, throughout 2020, you know, that I, I just had tons of conversations about race. And and I ended up, I was involved in starting the diversity task force for the National Strength and Conditioning Association, which, of course, I’m a part of, and the National High School strength coaches association started unity committee that I was a part of, as well. And so, I’m not going to go beyond there, because there’s more of this story to talk about. So, I’m gonna leave it there, just as a bit of my background, but essentially, that’s how I got. Absolutely. Well, I am a kind of a walking symbol of racial unity. And I my dad was white, and he just passed so he was white and my, my mom is black. And, you know, both sides of my family are very supportive of everyone in it, you know, so we didn’t have, you know, any racial issues at all. My, the white side of my family actually were Quaker. We didn’t. My dad, so Mike, essentially, my grandparents were, you know, continued in the Quaker faith. My dad didn’t really participate actively. And my mom’s side was was Catholic. But everybody got along everybody. You know, like I said, there was there was really no racial issues at all and and I was just reading a book actually, Thomas Chatterton Williams wrote a book called unlearning race. And one of the things he mentioned and that stuck with me was that there are very there’s a lot of black folks in our country who spend their entire lives without ever really having true intimate love from white people. Right? So especially when you know in the younger in our younger years If you don’t have any real, true connection, you know, to white folks, there’s you know, you grow up with certain ideas and resentments and thoughts about, you know, what white folks are to you and what that stuff all means. Right? And so for me, as you know, someone who’s black and mixed, you know, I grew up with black people and white people. And when my, you know, my parents had lots of friends of kinds of nationalities.
Maria Ross 10:36
It was normalized for you.
Daniel Jahn 10:37
I was yeah, exactly. And it was love of all was was normalized. So that made this this really easy. So, you know, I know, you mentioned the sole focus group. So, I’m going to tie this together here real quick. I. So as you know, a black person during a time early after George Floyd, where there was a lot of talk about like, okay, as black people, should we take on this the learning for white folks? Should we like be answering all of these questions?
Maria Ross 11:09
People have very definite opinions about that. Oh, yeah. People said,
Daniel Jahn 11:13
No, some people said, Yes, I was always, you know, I am someone who believes that doors open, and they close. And so there was a window of opportunity for us all, when the newspapers decided to go down into Alabama and shed some light on the dogs and the fire hoses. And there has been another window and door that has opened since George Floyd. And so, I think we need to take advantage of it. And I think that all of us need to be open to conversations about race. And so I was someone who I was a huge proponent of it. I said, you know, what? We can’t be we can’t we can’t sit on the We can’t sit on the bench right now, when people want to talk.
Maria Ross 11:54
Do you think that that was from your background, because I’ve spoken to other people of color, who very like I said, very adamantly are like, it’s not our job to educate White people on our experience, even though there are many white people with good intentions that are like, how else am I going to understand the experience unless I talk to people, and they can read books, and they can, you know, find their own information? But what what do you think, gives you that perspective? Is it is it because of your upbringing of seeing the power of bringing those groups together? Or what do you think makes that difference for you?
Daniel Jahn 12:26
But yeah, I definitely think that’s part of it. You know, race is really all about our perspectives and our experiences, you know, and I think the thing that I saw then, and I continue to see even now is that people love to talk about racism, but they don’t like to talk about race. And that’s primarily because we don’t learn about race, we learn about racism, but we do not understand or grow or learn about race. And so, for me, it’s, you know, most of America, not just white folks, most of America don’t understand our racial history, or our racial disconnect. And I want to get into that. Yeah. And I want to get into that, because you’ve talked to me before about the fact that race is a human made concept. And so, can you give us a little bit of that history lesson on that? Because I know you’ve, you’ve studied it. Yeah, it’s a total, it’s completely a social construction. And it happened for one specific reason. And that reason was to divide us. Okay. And so normally, when I’m having these conversations, Maria, I generally start, you know, I, I stopped at racism. And I let you know, informed folks that we, you know, that’s we’re jumping, putting the cart in front of the horse. When we do that we have to talk about race first. Okay. Because in, you know, 350 years ago, there was no race. And it really only became significant in 1705. So, we’re talking 315 years ago, right. So, in the word white hadn’t actually been written consistently until 1680. In the House of Burgesses, okay. And in 1676, there was a very significant event that happened, what I believe probably one of the most significant in our history. So essentially, we were all new worlders. And there was a man named Nathaniel Bacon, who led a revolt of slaves, and also white indentured servants against the colonial elites in Virginia, William Burke. And so, it was very successful. And, you know, so after that event, the the colonial elites knew that there, you know, they were going to have to do something, to keep all of these really poor folks from overthrowing you know, throwing them off the land and just and killing them. And because essentially, you had tons of slaves and you had tons of Blyden indentured servants. And so, what they decided to do was was specifically designate European settlers and people that were coming into the country as white and African slaves or new world, slaves essentially, as black, there was three categories race was created for two. But there was three categories indigenous, what they called savages back then, of course, was one, and white and black were the other. So, the purpose of creating race was actually to create what we call whiteness, which really operated as this club, which said to you, you’re the indentured servants and you European, really poor European settlers, mostly, you know, Scots Irish that were coming in. That said, Look, you know, we you don’t have a lot, but you, you at least you’re not black, you have a little bit more than that. Yeah, they created an us versus them dynamic, they create an us versus them. So, what happened was that the immediate by creating race, right? We, since we only did it to create, in fact, the value proposition, white identity became explicitly tied to the inferiority of blacks, and essentially, black slaves. And that is what has been the most damaging part of what we have to deal with and clean up now. Right? So we’re all living with it, and we’re trying to figure it out. And we’re trying to try to grasp it. But but the The difficult part is because as a society, we’ve never really gotten to the root of what’s going on. We think it’s we think, honestly, that it’s slavery, because we had a system of race-based slavery here. You know, we think that that, that that has caused everything else now that we’re slavery ties in, it’s very important is because it was the economic system that grew this nation, we are we are explicitly tied to race, there is no America, if there is no race, and there is no America if there is no racism, right, because racism followed race, they had to justify this, you know, torturous, horrible system that grew wealth, right, that allowed us to even go to war with England. So, there wouldn’t be a country, if there was no slavery, there wouldn’t be slavery, if there wasn’t racism, and there wouldn’t be racism if there was no race. Okay, so the psychology behind what it means is what is it’s been so damaging to all of us, especially in this era, where, you know, essentially we are, you know, let’s say 1971 was, like, one of the last laws on the books to go that explicitly said, okay, you know, black people are less than white folks. Right? So, we’re in this era that, you know, there’s no real written laws and policies, like there were at following the Civil Rights Movement that says, okay, you know, black people, you are less than white people. And so, in so many ways, right. Now, laws are administered in different ways. But all of it is tied to the idea to this construct, that essentially, white people are the best people. Right, and everyone else is kind of second in line, you know, depending on who you are, and how you look and some and how dark you are, and, right. And so, if we can, if we understand that the root of this was made up, we just pulled it out of thin air. Okay, there were there’s no biological reference to, you know, or specificity of race at all. I mean, there’s more racial, you know, or there’s more genetic diversity within race than across, we’ve seen that because of ancestry.com and 23andme. Right? Do we know that it was just simply made up to keep us disconnected, then we can start to think, okay, you know, what, now I’m I, I can somewhat understand why it is that I am so confused. You know, when somebody says, Well, you know, like, all white people are racist, or somebody else says, Well, I don’t, you know, then like, I don’t get why, you know, all, you know, black people are killing each other, but they’re talking about the police, or I don’t you know, this all of these, this disproportionality is it, you know, doesn’t really just come from work ethic, why don’t they just work harder? And why don’t you know, I don’t I like everybody. And and, you know, I never heard anybody and so why am I you know, why are they blaming me? And it turns directly, it turns into an us versus them. And so, I’m at the point now, and after 25 years of doing this and talking and being involved, that any conversation that has to that pit that essentially pits two perspectives against one another is not a conversation that I’m really interested in. It’s not going to get us towards where we want to be. Eat, which I’m going to assume is to get end racism. And for me, what ending racism is, is eradicating the value that is tied to race. So, we still have racial differences, we still value our uniqueness and our difference. But we all see each other as Americans.
Maria Ross 20:24
And we focus on what I love that you said that DJ, because I think that’s often the missing piece is we need to have more conversations, we need to have more programs, we need to have more of this, that the other to what end. And I love that you’ve just defined that. The goal of all this is x. The goal is not to shame people, the goal is not to rehash I mean, we have to educate and be aware. But I don’t know if anyone has ever articulated what the goal is of why we’re talking about this so much, and why we need to talk about so much and why we need anti racism education and, and why I think people have put it into a moral camp of, of if they are racist, but don’t admit that they are. They feel that their identities being attacked. And they feel that just you know, maybe it’s just, it’s all going to be angry, it’s all going to be blamed, it’s all going to be this and no one ever articulates the way you just did. What are we doing all this for? Right? Right. And I think if we, if we could make more people aware of that, you take the fear out of it for some people, you know, kind of, for me, I am gonna pass judgment, these crazy theories of replacement theory and all that kind of stuff. No one’s trying to usurp anyone else. We’re just trying to create unity and harmony. And I feel like the way you just described it. Tone, not tones it down, but deescalates it a little bit to where you might actually be able to get people in the same room talking.
Daniel Jahn 22:07
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And like, I think on our first conversation, one of the things I asked you was like, you know, if racism ends today, and you step out of your house tomorrow, what does the world look like? What does it feel like? What does it sound like? You know, what? What are the conversations? What are the behaviors? What are the interactions? What are the Howard laws administered? How are how are the political discussions like, you know, what are, you know, investment conversations, like, what is everything about our society look like? And you if you are really serious about ending racism, like if we’re just, you know, I mean, if we’re just so I one of the questions you asked at the beginning, I was like, Okay, where are we in this? You know, we’re to today, we are two years old.
Maria Ross 22:58
As of this recording, we’re, we’re honoring the and second anniversary of George Floyd Smarter.
Daniel Jahn 23:04
Right. You know, a lot of folks say, we’ve made a lot of progress. A lot of folks say that we you know, what kind of progress really, you know, have we made, you know, what, where are where are we? Right? So, you know, for me, if we’re really looking at like, okay, creating racial unity, creating equity, and ending this then, like, all of the work to hire all this DDI folks, and all of these discussions and podcasts and, and all of this stuff, like if it doesn’t move us towards ending it. Why are we doing it?
Maria Ross 23:43
Exactly. And I think even can’t picture why are we doing? Yeah, and people can’t picture they’ve I don’t think we’ve thought through enough. What you just said? Yeah, what does it look like?
Daniel Jahn 23:55
Like it, we got to visualize it? We do. And for me, what it is, like I mentioned to you is that I can step into a world and and move throughout a society in which my skin color my hair texture and my eye color bears no value. Okay, it’s different. Yes. We, you know, like lots of people say, Well, we’ll find differences. We’re tribal by nature, you know, yeah, there, there will be differences. But guess what, let’s take race out of it. I mean, let’s actually know it. No, I’m sorry. There are going to be differences, but we can choose how to see those differences, right. So, our differences are unique, and they’re valuable. We are all Americans, we’re here to create a stronger society. Okay. What we can also do at the same time is say because someone looks different than I do. That doesn’t mean they are less than me or better than we can hold two thoughts in our head at the same time. Yeah, we are. Yes, we can do that. Completely compared. And so, there’s, there’s something else that I want to bring up that you mentioned too. that just a bit ago, I don’t remember exactly the context, but you said if somebody you know is a racist or they don’t, maybe they aren’t, or they don’t know they are they’re trying not to. So, this is one word that I think is actually very problematic for us. And we either need to break it all the way down, or we just need to get rid of it. Okay, because what I have not ever been privy to is someone defining what a racist is. Okay, is that just someone who doesn’t like somebody because of their race? Is it somebody who, one time went to a Klan rally? And then you know, as somebody who was in the Klan 30 years and then denounced and then has been working for racial justice for 10 years? Is it someone who, you know, votes for policies that are damaging to communities of color is this? What is it exactly?
Maria Ross 25:59
Is it just someone who’s mean to people of color? Is it someone who is nice to people of color to their face, but not when they’re not around? Like, yeah, there’s so many we we’ve never defined that.
Daniel Jahn 26:10
And it’s not helpful. No, it’s not if it’s, if where we’re trying to go is to build racial unity and American racial solidarity. Right, and, and the value proposition tied to race, okay? It just trying to point out and find who the racists are, or trying to distance yourself from the word or, you know, what I mean? Like, or, or, you know, I felt like, every time that they’re in George Floyd, I mean, like, okay, he’s one of many, many, many incidents, since I’ve been really heavily involved in this work in the last 20, some years, in which I’ve watched our society do two things. One is open, some doors get opened. And the other is, is people run from the idea of race and racism and say, See, that’s what’s that’s what racism is. That’s not me. I’m not that I’m not tied to that. Right. It’s like is there’s this weird, there’s, it’s, but it always comes back to disconnection, Maria, I mean, it really does. I mean, racism so effectively disconnects us. Right? It’s told white people, they can only be tall when black people are on their knees. Okay, it’s all black people, you’re never going to be as good as white folks. And I’m just using really, briefly, I’m using black and white now. Because when we created race, it was it was really, it was created for black and white. And so, you know, it is the concept of Asian as a race is stupid. Okay, the concept of, you know, Mexican, as a race or Latino as a race, right? It was designed for skin color, I texture, your eye color and hair texture, right? So, we often confuse ethnic origin and nationality and race with each other, which makes people more confused. You know, racism is extremely complex, it’s the most, I think it’s the most complex domestic issue we have.
Maria Ross 28:13
Is there is Is there ever a vision for you that if we got to a world where, like you said, we walk out our door, we wake up one day, and there is no racism? Are we not even using that word anymore?
Daniel Jahn 28:28
Well, it doesn’t mean anything. Right? Right. I mean, it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t necessarily mean anything now that we’re not going to race is, is there, right? It’s part of who we are. It is, we are who we are because of race. It is America’s export to the world. Right? We this is our biggest impact. We are who we are because of race. So, it’s not like we’re just it’s just gonna go away. Okay, but maybe we find different terms, maybe we internalize the meaning behind it differently, which is kind of what what I hope happens, right? So, skin color, hair texture, you know, eye colors, the differences are there, you know, but as as long as we can, you know, interact and behave and reprogram our subconscious and our conditioning, to understand that race really means nothing. We just made it up. Then we can live in a society where I think that this you know, that you so here’s, here’s, here’s an interesting thing that I learned through the sole focus group, actually, what’s your I can talk more about in a minute, but which is that you know, we like to talk about systems and institutions, all the time, racism and structural racism, institutional racism, we’d like to bring that up, but who makes up systems and institutions? We do. So, the reason why all of these laws and the way A systems operate the way they do is because people brought the psychology of race, they brought their social conditioning into their arena of work, whether that be political or corporate or nonprofit, it doesn’t matter. We’re just taking who we are and our conditioning with us everywhere we go. So, if we get killed if we can end the and heal from the racism within us, right, and that’s everybody. Okay, that’s all people in this society, if we can heal, you know, and work on racism within us, then we can start to go out to society and to the system, the schools and and the, you know, corporations and the banks and the criminal justice system, we got to start with our ourselves.
Maria Ross 30:49
Well, and that’s something we we dug into really was this was this power of, of looking at, obviously, looking inward. And looking for what, you know, you I think we had talked about the fact that a lot of it is about fear about lack of love about insecurity, that people are embracing this human made constructs, because it serves them. So, what, what’s an example of or even just generally what’s, what is the inner work that people need to do? And is it different if you’re black versus white?
Daniel Jahn 31:23
Yep, absolutely. Absolutely.
Maria Ross 31:25
So, answer might be no, I don’t know. But
Daniel Jahn 31:26
No. Yeah, the answer? The answer is absolutely, yes. The work that we need to do is based on our racial perspective, right? So, I’ll tell you about me. So just briefly, I was doing all these discussions, I’ll take it back for a second and 2020, I get to the end of 2020. And something’s not sitting right with me. I don’t I can’t figure out what is going on. I’m having tons of conversations. But but but something is not really clicking. And, and I’m realizing that, that it’s, I don’t feel like I am participating in something that will create transformational change. And one of the main reasons was because all of the conversations I was having with primarily white folks was that essentially tied them to feeling for someone else. So essentially, it was that like, you’re racist, this really sucks and like, Man, I want to do something about it. But ingrained in them, that meant they want to do something for people of color, not for themselves. And I couldn’t put the word on it yet, I didn’t quite know. But what end up happening is in January of 2021, I got connected through this Instagram deal to the sole focus group, and I got to sit in on a workshop and they have they have they do a four to five part, you know, workshop. And this particular workshop was part two, and it was called healing from racism. And when I heard the title, I’m like, Okay, well, that must be for people with color. Like, you know, I don’t know, like, you know, people of color people been hurt by somehow, whether, you know, some action or something, right. I didn’t know people who, quote unquote, were victims of victims, yes. And it was a completely different experience for me, sitting in on it, and I and it forced me to, like, really take a look at how I’ve defined myself, and how my parents might have defined themselves and how I was helping educate my children based on like, essentially living in a society swimming in this ocean, which essentially says white folks are better than black folks. And, and so I started to deconstruct, and I went deeper and deeper, and I got more involved with them. But the thing for me was like, Okay, I really need to take a look at what’s going on with me. And, you know, before I go out here and tell everybody else how to do this, right. And so, you know, what I found was that like, you know, my, my, any conversation that I would have started with this initial thought that like, well, I’m going to be judged based on my intellect and based on my ability to appear, you know, capable and count me out and how confident I am how smart I am. And I know that because as a black man, I mean, that’s my experience. And it shaped it’s an honest, shaped my conversations and shaped my behavior, and it shaped my energy. And so, I never really thought deep enough about how big a part of my life that had been how many times I were just
Maria Ross 34:44
You were just used to doing it. I was just used to doing it. Yeah. And sorry to interrupt. I just I just want to add because this is so important, and not that it’s quitted. But you know, oppression of any kind. I think there’s so many women that end up realizing that we they get older and more confident in their careers, they start realizing that so much of their decision making so much of what they brought to work, or how they acted at work, was through a lens of I have to make sure that as a woman, I am perceived or not perceived a certain way. And this is the thing that I think is true of any marginalized group, as related to white males, who are, you know, we’re not saying you are all horrible people, but you are just not used to having to deal with that inner narrative. At any point in your life, where it’s, you have to wonder how you’re showing up as a white man. Yeah.
Daniel Jahn 35:44
I will. I will pause you on that one is that, but so white men have their own difficulties, of course. And so that and one of them, we are seeing in the last, like, we’re seeing the result of when the last 20 years or so with this route with the rise of white males? Yes, when white male suicide aged 40 to 60. Right? Because we’ve all been lied to. We’ve been duped. Okay, we have been led to believe that white men are essentially the people who run and should run and who have our country and our society and who have the best judgment, and they should be the lawyers and the politicians and the CEOs. And you know, just because that’s
Maria Ross 36:28
And that hurts those people to expectation, I think that’s you getting to that point of like, everyone is healing from this.
Daniel Jahn 36:35
Yeah, yeah, we didn’t, we’re all victim to this, none of us created this. Right. This was created hundreds of years before any of us were born before our parents were born hundreds of years before our grandparents were born. Right? We’re all living in it. Okay. And all of us do have healing to do, yes, what, like, white men have been totally disconnected and cut off from people of color, because of the value proposition put on our ancestors. It has put them in a position, like I said earlier, you know, that in which they, they’re expected to be tall, because everyone else can only be you know, when everyone else is on their knees, okay. And so, we’re all we are all playing a role it’s taken. Whiteness is something that was done to people and blackness was something that was done to people, right. It’s not something that was done for us, it was done to us in order to disconnect us. And so, I think when we’re, when we’re talking about these issues, we always have to remember that race has got, it’s really our only connector. It’s not the disconnect, or it’s actually the connector, it was something to done done to all of us in a different way, in for one reason, right to make money submit is to make money. Okay. And so So, you know, I didn’t mean to cut you off Maria. But to take it back to what what ended up happening, I just reconstructing my vision of myself, how and you know, how I went about in the world, and the conversations that I was having helped lead me, you know, to a place in which I started to see things and in a different way. And so, I think, for me, the most important people, most important thing that people need to do, like right away is to say, how has racism harmed me? And how can I heal from that? How has racism harmed me? And how can I heal from that?
Maria Ross 38:33
And when you had that, that breakthrough? Did things start to align? Did you did you realize that that was the missing piece for you?
Daniel Jahn 38:42
Oh, yeah, well, it definitely set me on a path of learning. Learning more, I thought I had this stuff figured out.
Maria Ross 38:48
Right, I know, you said you always sort of felt like something didn’t quite jive for you quite resonate
Daniel Jahn 38:55
At the end of 2020. But all the way up through that, but you know, until the fall of 2020, I was like, you know, I kind of have this stuff figured out. I know the story. I know, our history. I know, you know about implicit bias. I know about you know, our, you know about structural racism, and I know about a criminal justice system. So, I kind of have it figured out it was all about teaching. Honestly, it was like mostly about teaching white people about the perspectives of people of color, you know, and I thought that was it. But it’s not. And that’s where I, I shifted my learning and it became much more so and I’m, I’m so like, glad that that your the podcast is about empathy, because really, that’s, this is about our connection to each other. And it’s about us, you know, and we mentioned the last time we talked, you know, these acts of hate, come because of deep feelings of insecurity, right, and a lack of love and neglect and things that have to do with who we are as beings. It’s the Same reason why racism has just been so been able to be so rampant because we’re so mentally unhealthy in our society right now. We don’t feel good about ourselves. So, disobey, so any, you know, any, any, anybody who’s different from me must be less than me somehow, right? Because they’re trying to take something from me, they’re trying to take something from me because I’m constantly trying to justify my own being and who I am and my, you know, my strength and my, you know, my, my intellect, all of that it just starts with me, right? You know.
Maria Ross 40:36
And I love as you were talking, I just got this lovely image of wouldn’t it be great, instead of all of these issues like, there’s a group of us that as, as an example, at my son’s school are trying to build like an equity and inclusion group already being, you know, just from trying to gauge if there was interest, there was all sorts of fear mongering and all sorts of like, oh, this means they’re gonna bring CRT to the school and blah, blah, blah, blah. And like what a different image I get from hearing you describe the mutual healing, that it’s not walking into a room ready for a confrontation, it’s almost like everyone putting their arms around each other. And going, we have all suffered from this, we are not, we are not coming into this group or into this room to shame or blame, or whatever we’re going to, we’re going to become more aware of what’s been done to all of us. And I just as you were talking to just got this image of like, what a what a more thriving conversation you have, if you’re envisioning it that way, where you’re all putting your arms around each other, and you’re walking into that room together. Yeah, absolutely. And then maybe those, you know, if we had more of that talk, and more of that understanding, we could bring people along, even if they don’t think they need healing, but they just know, I’m gonna get into the room because I know this isn’t going to be an attack on me. And they might uncover their own epiphanies if we can at least get them in the room. So just, I love that. And you know, when the the person that connected us, the wonderful Whitney keys talked about the fact that why we needed to talk was because you do bring this very joyful aspect to this, it’s very unifying aspect to this conversation. And I think I just felt it in what you described, and how you described it.
Daniel Jahn 42:29
For sure. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, no, thank you. I mean, we have this incredible opportunity right now, to really connect with each other and grow from each other and create the kind of society in which we really genuinely all thrive, based on, you know, the, the work we put in, and, and you know, who we can become, you know what I mean? And, but it’s really going to take all of us and it’s going to take us, you know, looking inside ourselves and realizing, you know, how, like I said, how we’ve been harmed and how we can grow. And, and being honest with ourselves, I mean, you mentioned that, you know, CRT and that really, the fear of CRT really comes from it started out with the idea that somehow all white people are racist, right? Or that that the idea that that all white people really know. Let me just go back. It said all white people are bad. So, what what a lot of people heard is that like, all white people are bad, even though they had nothing. They knew nothing about critical race theory or why
Maria Ross 43:29
people that hate it don’t understand it. So yeah. And
Daniel Jahn 43:32
So, then that became I am bad. So as soon as it’s I am bad. I’m totally rejecting anything that has to do with of course, right. Yeah. And so So, you know, this is all tied to our insecurity and how we feel about each other. And how we feel requires the healing. And why requires healing? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So
Maria Ross 43:54
Well, DJ, we’re gonna have many more talks, I’m sure. But thank you so much for sharing this history lesson and your insights and your perspectives on this. Folks can probably get in touch with you for workshops or speaking on this topic as well. And the the joyful aspect that you bring to it, but where’s the best place for people to connect with you and learn more?
Daniel Jahn 44:18
Yeah, know, for sure. So, the Instagram that I that I started, of course, and still like to post up on is a good one. That’s just my name at Daniel underscore, John. J. H. N. J. H, and yes, yes. That’s German, its German. Hello. And then also, you know, I highly encourage people to look at the sole focus groups website and connect, you know, if whether or not you’re a part of an organization or business, you know, there there’s tons of there’s I think they have there’s an online curriculum now. You know, there’s more, that will be available for folks just to tap into, you know, the It’s a breath of fresh air, I’ll tell you, you know, it’s a breath of fresh air. And it’s it’s a, it’s a solution focused solution focus workshops and ideas and language around this topic that everybody can buy into really.
Maria Ross 45:16
I love it. And we will have their link in the show notes as well. So,
Daniel Jahn 45:20
Excellent.
Maria Ross 45:21
Thank you so much for the work that you’re doing. Thank you for sharing your story with us today. And thank you for sharing your insights as well.
Daniel Jahn 45:27
Yeah, no, thank you. I’m always like I said, I’m always up to talk and then we can chat again, whenever.
Maria Ross 45:33
For sure we might have to have you on again. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you loved it, please share it with a colleague or a friend. And don’t forget to rate and review we love that. And until next time, remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion, and unity are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
