Most workplace conflict isn’t really about personalities, tone, or poor communication. It’s about unmet human needs. And most organizations have never been taught how to recognize or address them.
Catherine Cooley has spent her career doing exactly that. Catherine is a communication and conflict coach, mediator, and Certified Trainer of Nonviolent and Compassionate Communication. She’s a conflict and empathy expert who began her work teaching empathy inside federal prisons, and today helps leaders and business teams who dread going to work learn how to resolve differences, restore trust, and build cultures rooted in clarity and connection.
From connection during tension, identifying unmet human needs, properly integrating corporate empathy training, and what Catherine calls “precision empathy”, this is a practical, no-nonsense conversation about empathy that works—not as a vibe, not as a script, but as a disciplined, learnable practice that helps people speak honestly, listen deeply, and repair what’s broken.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Listen in for…
- Connecting rather than alienating in moments of tension
- The four steps of nonviolent communication – OFNR
- Reclaiming emotion as a compass for human needs
- How unmet human needs appear as organizational dysfunction
- Why “feeling literacy” is a form of body intelligence, not just cognitive intelligence
- How poorly done corporate empathy training can make communication worse
- How self-empathy can transform workplace relationships
“We can pretend all day long we don’t have feelings, but our amygdala, meanwhile, is firing the whole time. So let’s harvest what it tells us.” — Catherine Cooley
Episode References:
- The Empathy Factor by Marie Miyashiro
- Center for Non-Violent Communication (NVC): https://www.cnvc.org/
- Google Project Aristotle: https://psychsafety.com/googles-project-aristotle/
- The Empathy Edge podcast: Annalee Hagood-Earl: A Founder’s Masterclass in Values-Driven Velocity
About Catherine Cooley, Communication & Conflict Coach and Certified Trainer:
Catherine is a conflict and empathy expert who cut her teeth teaching empathy in federal prison; now she gives leaders and business teams who dread their workplace a reliable way to resolve differences, restore trust, and build an empathic culture.
She started her career as a geologist, but pivoted early on toward mastering systemized communication “soft skills”. She is a mediator and a Certified Trainer of NVC (Nonviolent & Compassionate Communication), a collaborative communication model that has been used by Microsoft, L’Oreal, Merck, and many others. She coaches and trains leadership teams of mission-driven enterprises with 3×3 Empathy Factors®️, a proprietary NVC-based communication and culture-building system.
Catherine is a member of Rotary International E-Club of World Peace, Mediators Beyond Borders International, and the LA chapter of Conscious Capitalism. She was a facilitator for the Alternatives to Violence Project in federal prison.
Connect with Catherine:
Peaceabl: https://www.peaceabl.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherinedcooley/
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books: Red-Slice.com/books
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Courses! Leading with Empathy and Balancing Empathy, Accountability, and Results as a Leader
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Maria Ross 00:04
Welcome to the Empathy Edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator, and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Most workplace conflict isn’t really about personalities, tone, or poor communication. It’s about unmet human needs, and most organizations have never been taught how to recognize or address them. My guest today, Catherine Cooley, has spent her career doing exactly that. Catherine is a communication and conflict coach, mediator, and certified trainer of nonviolent and compassionate communication. She’s a conflict and empathy expert who began her work teaching empathy inside federal prisons, and today helps leaders and business teams who dread going to work, learn how to resolve differences, restore trust, and build cultures rooted in clarity and connection. Her path into this work is anything but typical. Catherine started her career as a geologist, then pivoted early to master systematized soft skills, the kind that actually hold up under pressure. She coaches and trains mission-driven enterprises on the three-by-three empathy factors, an NVC-based communication and culture-building system that’s been used by organizations like L’Oreal, which trained more than 60,000 employees, as well as by small and mid-sized organizations navigating real-world conflict. In our conversation, we explore how to connect rather than alienate in moments of tension. Why reclaiming our emotions as a compass for human needs changes everything. How unmet human needs show up as organizational dysfunction. We discuss why feeling literacy isn’t just cognitive; it’s a form of body intelligence. Why poorly integrated corporate empathy training can actually make communication worse, and we discuss how a self-empathy practice transforms workplace relationships. Finally, Catherine shares what she calls precision empathy, getting to the root of conflict by addressing unmet needs, not just behaviors, this is a practical, no-nonsense conversation about empathy that works, not as a vibe, not as a script, but as a disciplined, learnable practice that helps people speak honestly, listen deeply, and most importantly, repair what’s broken. So many gems. Take a listen. Welcome, Catherine Cooley, to the Empathy Edge podcast. I’m excited to have this conversation with you about your really interesting work with organizations rooted in nonviolent communication. But also, before we even get started there, I want to hear this wonderful story about how you got to this work and how you got from being a geologist to doing the work you do around communication skills with organizations. So share that with us, please.
Catherine Cooley 03:30
Thank you. I would love to. It was a fascinating journey and a surprise journey. So I was part of a new thought group in San Diego in the ’90s, and they invited Dr. Marshall Rosenberg, the psychologist that created that developed the thinking and language model of NVC, not which stands for nonviolent communication, and a lot of amazing thinkers passed through that group. And but he really sparked me. There was something about what he was saying that I I knew was completely transformational, and so I took a workshop and then I I started applying it, and I had this misconception because really nonviolent communication serves our whole lives. It’s a way of being in the world, a way of seeing the world. I just thought it was a way to get out of like relational troubles, so I had I was a geologist and I was working for an environmental engineering firm, and I had a boss that for me personally was quite difficult to work with. There was just like a lot of like I felt like I couldn’t get past like his coldness. Like for some reason, you know, I it was just like so hard. And then I also my boyfriend at the time, who’s now my longtime husband, we would get into tangles, right? So that’s when I used the four steps of NVC, like to get out of my jams. And then we moved to Santa Barbara from LA. I’m from San Diego, and actually LA, and then San Diego. But there was a move. Going on in Santa Barbara, there were a number of very powerful teachers teaching council circle process, and in council circle, it’s about diving deep with people in a very authentic slow down conversation. But to do that, if you and I are in circle together, but we have this personal conflict going on, we need to clear that up, or we can’t do the work of the council. And so over time, I would see some people. They would think, “Oh, this is no big deal between you and I,” and they would what I call winging it through the conflict, just doing their own thing, how they usually would resolve a conflict. And then there were others of us who were taking the model a little more seriously and doing the four steps. And I just noticed over time, wow, those four steps make a huge difference in terms of the clarity and the quality of emotional quality of the connection that would happen in these conflict resolution. And so then I ended up taking. I decided to take mediation training, and I worked in small claims court with that. And then I also got trained as a facilitator for Alternative to Violence Project, and I worked in a federal prison, bringing emotional intelligence, nonviolent skills there. And and one of their core modules was NVC based. Just as my the core part of the mediation training was NVC based, so something my brain was going, this is transformational. Everyone is starting to know this and recognize.
Maria Ross 06:23
Yeah, it keeps coming up again and again. Yeah. Yes.
Catherine Cooley 06:26
So let’s start a business.
Maria Ross 06:29
So by geology, and now you’re you’re fully into this work.
Catherine Cooley 06:33
Yes.
Maria Ross 06:34
All right. Wonderful.
Catherine Cooley 06:35
Yes, because it was such a rich human experience. All of these experiences.
Maria Ross 06:41
Right.
Catherine Cooley 06:41
And so it became it. You know, NVC is my what I call my professional scaffolding. I have two professional scaffoldings. I have the NVC model, and I also have something called three by three empathy factors, which is a training, a corporate training that was developed by my mentor Marie Miyashiro, author, an early pioneer, because her book, The Empathy Factors, came out in 2011. So she was she was early on the curve, and was doing already. She was a successful organizational development consultant. But when she met in the early 2000s, she met Marshall Rosenberg. They she collaborated with him because she saw NVC’s genius for the I and the you relationships right that’s my relationship with myself and my relationship with you whether that’s at home or in an organization she saw that like NVC does that brilliantly and she immediately pivoted her business all of the training she did to be NVC based because she saw he nailed it. Yeah, I nailed it. But then she realized though there was the there’s the I, there’s the you, and then there’s the we that she had become so skilled at as an organizational development consultant. So she took the need. So NBC is basically needs feelings literacy and needs literacy, and so she took that literacy and expanded it to organizational needs literacy, and outlined six main categories of organizational needs. And so now in an organization, you and I can be skilled and cognizant of our human needs, and be able to communicate about it very effectively in four steps.
Maria Ross 08:32
Right,
Catherine Cooley 08:33
but we can also recognize, yes, I’m here, but if I’m the marketing director or whatever I am, I in a role meeting organizational needs? I want a language for that as well, and that’s what Marie developed in the L’Oreal Corporation. It’s been 10s of 1000s of people in that company were trained in it, and then it was developed as they were being trained in it and modified
Maria Ross 09:00
right
Catherine Cooley 09:01
to really to hone it all in, and in over 60 countries, by the way, wow, that’s amazing. Yes, and that’s the other amazing thing about NBC. It’s also all over the world because it’s totally cross cultural in its effectiveness.
Maria Ross 09:15
Okay, so let’s dig into that a little bit more. So, just briefly, share with us what because it feels like what I hear you saying is this is the missing piece. You’ve talked about poorly integrated empathy training in organizations and why it potentially makes communication worse. And in your view, is that because this piece around nonviolent communication is missing?
Catherine Cooley 09:37
Yes, and I would say it’s not just the needs literacy, yes, that is missing in most people. So many experts talk about empathy, and they don’t go there. And I wish this for them all. I really do, right? Because it’s going to really clarify their work for them and make it more powerful. So there is the needs literacy, but there’s also that feeling. Element and you and I both know in our work that the feeling part is so tough for people. You know, it’s we’ve all been trained that feelings are bad news. We’re when when we’re emotional, we’re in the way, we’re inconvenient, we’re you know like push past that. You know, suck it up and push past. But what Dr. Rosenberg realized is no, let’s re. our most one of our most valuable body intelligences, human feelings, and human feelings. He recognized were this amazing compass to our human needs, and all of our conflicts are about our unmet human needs.
Maria Ross 10:44
Wow, that’s very powerful. I love that phrasing of it being. I love that idea of reclaiming emotions and reclaiming feelings as not an inconvenience to the human experience, but the core of the human experience. It’s what makes us us.
Catherine Cooley 11:00
You can pretend we can pretend all day long we don’t have feelings, but our amygdala, meanwhile, is firing the whole time. So let’s harvest what it tells us. And his compass is, I’m, I have painful feelings like anger or fear or sadness. That’s the compass going unmet needs. I have delight, excitement, all the pleasurable feelings. Thank you. My needs are being met, but I want to harvest that. I want to get clear. Wow, what needs were met in this conversation?
Maria Ross 11:36
Right. So I can replicate it.
Catherine Cooley 11:37
Yeah.
Maria Ross 11:38
So I can scale it
Catherine Cooley 11:39
exactly. Exactly.
Maria Ross 11:41
So,briefly tell us the four steps of nonviolent communication.
Catherine Cooley 11:45
Okay, I’m going to give you the acronym first: O F N R.
Maria Ross 11:51
Okay,
Catherine Cooley 11:52
as in do this more oftener.
Maria Ross 11:55
I love that.
Catherine Cooley 11:58
The O is observation. The F is feeling, and which we’ve just reclaimed is the need under the feeling, right? Need under the feeling, yes. And then the R, it’s crazy, but what we often don’t get to is the request, the request to meet the need. So, and I when as I was getting certified in automatic communication, I had like done this for years, right? And I and it was so humbling to realize I’m not making requests, even in my jams, even with the four steps for like. Wait a minute, let’s get and there’s two humbling things. First of all, I wasn’t making the request that I thought I was making. Second of all, they weren’t because one of the core. So the the four steps are the bones of NVC, and you certainly need those. The soul or the heart NVC is the consciousness, and that means when I am in a jam with you, and now it’s solution time. Now I understand your needs. I understand my needs. I need the consciousness and the the trust. We’re both ahead of the game when we try to meet your and my needs with the solution.
Maria Ross 13:15
The finding common ground. Yeah, which can always be found. Yes, even if it’s even if it’s not about, I always talk about empathy being about connection and not conversion or coercion, where whichever C you want to use there. Because we can have empathetic conversations, and the goal is not to convince you of my point of view necessarily. It’s just a. I still don’t agree with you, but I understand how you got to where you got to.
Catherine Cooley 13:39
Yes,
Maria Ross 13:40
and now that I understand, you know, it’s kind of what you’re saying without it, without even me even realizing it before. It’s about what was underneath that, so maybe we can find a different way.
Catherine Cooley 13:51
Yes,
Maria Ross 13:52
that we can both agree on together.
Catherine Cooley 13:54
Yes, right. A strategy. See, because that fourth step request requests are basically strategies needs, yeah. So now we’re elevating our strategies with a lot of clarity about your unmet needs in the situation, my what my unmet needs have been, and now we’re going to experiment. Right. So I’m going to make a request, and you’re going to say, “Well, that would work with me for me, if we change this and that, and I’m, and then we’re gonna say, okay, let’s try this this month. Great. Let’s see if when we get in that same jam, because you know we repeat our conflicts all the time. We repeat them all the time. Yeah. When we get there, we’re gonna try this instead. Okay. And it’s gonna meet your needs for clarity, and it’s gonna meet my needs for support.
Maria Ross 14:40
I love it. I love all this. So explain to me because the work you’re doing with organizations is based on the three by three empathy factors. So tell us a little bit about that, which I know you said Marie pioneered, and it’s underpinned by the nonviolent communication. What is that about, and how? Well, let’s find out what it’s about first. What is that three by three empathy factors approach?
Catherine Cooley 15:04
So the three by three is a grid of nine modules. The first three going down on the grid are addressing the I relationship. That’s me with myself. And as you know, working with leaders, right? Leaders right now more than ever need emotional resilience and just and a lot of self care, a lot of emotional self care that they haven’t been giving themselves, right?
Maria Ross 15:28
Right.
Catherine Cooley 15:28
And so the the it the it focus those first three modules focus on the eyes, starting the very first one is actually it’s the third one sorry, but in that first column is the self awareness piece, right? And that’s where what I’ve seen through my years of being in conflict and communication work is that it’s the nervous system. When we go into fight or flight, our strategies, our language, our language is so disconnecting
Maria Ross 16:01
when we’re
Catherine Cooley 16:02
in fight or flight. So the self awareness starts by even if I only have 60 seconds in my busy executive day, I take it before a challenging conversation. Be attuned. I use that magic of the breath, like in Howard Zinn’s work, right? And I use the basic fundamental reconnection so that the noise in my head can settle a bit. My vagus nerve system can go out of fight or flight. It usually takes a little longer that and then that, but even that minute will gain you points. Probably know that.
Maria Ross 16:44
Yeah, no, that’s great.
Catherine Cooley 16:45
And if you can take five, wow, that’s way better.
Maria Ross 16:48
So the first column is relationship with myself,
Catherine Cooley 16:51
the self, the I
Maria Ross 16:52
What’s the second column in the three by three model?
Catherine Cooley 16:56
You and I.
Maria Ross 16:56
Okay,
Catherine Cooley 16:57
that’s coming to a place of listening that is also informed by that calm nervous system that you’ve got going now,
Maria Ross 17:06
yeah.
Catherine Cooley 17:07
And a listen, a precision listening, because I know if you are upset, it’s because you have unmet needs, and now I have a language for talking to, for listening for it, and then discussing it with you. So it’s a listening for needs, and then it’s also a connecting process with like connecting requests when we we need to know more information. So we have like processes for being able to do that skillfully.
Maria Ross 17:37
Got it.
Catherine Cooley 17:39
And then the we, the and the the other three modules are about like connecting us, including connecting us around our celebrations. What is it that we love doing together? Right, right. It’s like almost like the appreciative inquiry like let’s let’s base our relationships. Let’s not forget because you know we’re human beings are wired to pay more attention to the pain than the pleasure, so we have to put a little consciousness to taking advantage of the beautiful connections and insights that come when we connect about what’s going well, and then also when we have the trust to do like authentic brainstorming, and I want to. I want to. Can I? Can I make a little tangential thing about trust and psychological safety? Because both the three by three empathy factors and, at its core, NVC deliver something that is of foremost importance in human in human productivity and abilities to cooperate, which is psychological safety, and you’ve probably know about the Aristotle study by the Google Aristotle study. Yeah, and just for your listeners who may not know about that, because they studied like 200 teams at Google. Like, okay, so what’s the magic ingredient here for high performing teams? Right, they had some confusion around it. They knew they weren’t quite hitting it. Then they latched on to Harvard researcher Amy Edmondson’s work and refined their study. And it was a surprise. I don’t think they wanted it to be this.
Maria Ross 19:15
No, they found that the teams. I joke when I present that is like they found that the you know the B teams were the ones that delivered the most profitable, productive work for the organization because of the way that they worked together and the environment that they had. Yes, and that’s you know that’s the crux of this idea of why culture matters.
Catherine Cooley 19:36
Yes, yes, because you are if you don’t have a psychologically safe team, and that means that I feel comfortable. I can like go on the the edge with this kind of edgy idea I had and share it. I’m not going to be laughed at, put down. I you know I feel
Maria Ross 19:51
safe enough to point out a risk and not seek you know not fear repercussion.
Catherine Cooley 19:56
Yes,
Maria Ross 19:56
yeah, all of it. It’s so important, and yeah, and. You know we’ve done we’ve done quite a few episodes on psychological safety and Amy’s work, so definitely appreciated with this audience. So just review for us quickly the three by three model. The first column is I, the second column is you, you, and the third is we.
Catherine Cooley 20:14
The we.
Maria Ross 20:15
Okay, really holding
Catherine Cooley 20:16
the collective. And when you know organizational needs, because part of the a very big important part of the we is these organizational needs of identity. Who are we? What are our values and our our purpose? Like, why are we here? What customer needs are we serving? Right, and but but really holding it at the passion level, and then our direction. Where are we going by when? Right. So these are what we would call like the source organizational needs, and so the more that we can clearly communicate those, and as I you know about the conscious capitalism work of John Mackey, and part of that realization was that these kinds of things have to be embedded in everything we do and say. Right, right, absolutely. And when they are, we’re more profitable and more sustainable as an organization, and we’re way more fun to work for.
Maria Ross 21:05
Absolutely. Okay, so let’s get down to brass tacks and talk about how this model. How have you worked with this model with clients, and what results have you seen? Can you give us some some anecdotes or examples, even if they’re anonymous, to really bring these concepts and these theories home.
Catherine Cooley 21:21
Yes. Okay. So a couple examples. One examples in my earlier day where it was pre three by three empathy factors was in a family business with the CEO, and the complication for the CEO was issues with his wife and family. Where and yet his wife was like the second. He was the CEO, and she was like,
Maria Ross 21:46
yeah, like ripe with drama, family business. Yes,
Catherine Cooley 21:50
yes, and it was just so painful. You know, with just like these really curt, short-tempered texts and and avoidance in terms of not wanting to be directly engaged, and so he took on the you know learning first, and this is a really good place to start for leaders to do it themselves first with the nonviolent communication, and so he was he went in with the motivation to for some healing in his family as well as healing that very key relationship that was having all kinds of nasty ripple effects that was because it was so challenging. But what the interesting thing that he learned that as he honed his skills and empathy and started applying it to his customer conversations. He was blown away at the level of connection that he had, and like the joy of every conversation. In fact, he told me that some of his team members were going, “I think you need to cut these conversations a little shorter because you’re not getting X, Y, and Z done anymore.” Yeah, absolutely. Because of the joy of the connection, and I know joy is one of your pillars. Like I was just completely delighted to see that because it’s very critical. We’ve it’s something that is so easy to push aside, thinking this is not this is not important. It’s fluff. Thank you.
Maria Ross 23:19
Yeah, it’s a waste of time. It’s distracting us. But that’s there’s a great quote by the founder of the brand, “Life is good,” that I always use in my presentations. Where it’s I’m going to paraphrase it, but he basically makes the point of that the it’s the joy, it’s the foolishness, it’s the camaraderie. It’s not a waste of time. That’s actually what makes a team more resilient and productive.
Catherine Cooley 23:45
Yes,
Maria Ross 23:46
are those moments? Yeah,
Catherine Cooley 23:48
yes, kind of like what we were talking about with the we and the celebrations, and yeah, we want to be heart connected. And for some people, like heart connected sounds scary, like woo, whatever. But you can just replace the connection in the nervous system if you prefer. Yeah, exactly. Prefer that, but it’s basically care, and I think most people can relate to that. You have a language and and a pro and processes that care for the people yourself and the people around you.
Maria Ross 24:15
So, can you give us an example with an organization that you know? Because I I I can sense a lot of my listeners are going to go. Well, I don’t work in a family business, so we don’t have that kind of personal drama. So, how
Catherine Cooley 24:25
about a charter school? That would be
Maria Ross 24:26
amazing. Give us an example of that in action.
Catherine Cooley 24:29
Yeah. So, I got a call, and again, this is where, wow, the stress, the personal stress levels
Maria Ross 24:36
for all educators,
Catherine Cooley 24:38
unreasonable. Yeah, yeah. Just in the day-to-day job, let alone when you have a conflict with another key person. And I want to mention one thing that we’re not going to dive into a lot, but one of the things I really appreciate when I pivoted my business to work with Marie is this concept, this very key organizational development concept of. Structure governs function, and so they’ve done studies. You and I could be on a team. We really like each other, but we’re working in a problematic structure. We’re not going to be high performing, and we’re not going to like it. And vice versa, we might not get along so well personally. We came from really different backgrounds, and just it’s not working out that way, but we’ve got excellent structure. We’re gonna do well on our team,
Maria Ross 25:29
yeah.
Catherine Cooley 25:29
And so, what I’ve been learning about conflict and conflict resolution in companies is that it often looks like the the outside looks like this is a personality issue between me and my boss. Like I was mentioning with the environmental engineering company, right? It’s this is a personality thing. So let’s like work it through at that level. No, you quite often usually Marie would say like 80% of the time it’s structural, and that’s where you go back to those source needs, like what’s our identity, what are we valuing, where are we going by when, how clear is that, and so forth, right? Right, and other needs as well. So, how are we using authority? Is there confusion around roles? Like all of that, and so back to the charter school example, it turns out that their structure from the founder had been a little pretty challenging. Where the two, the one carrying the operations and the finances, which would be like your COO and your CFO role, they didn’t really have like a clear enough roles or really even tie-breaking kind of functionality with the principal, the CEO,
Maria Ross 26:42
right,
Catherine Cooley 26:43
and so there was definitely some structural things happening that again look like I just can’t work with her. But also, then there’s the we, the relationship with the board, and there was like a big fear that by one of them that her relationship with the board was getting sabotaged, and that she was in real danger in her position. Right, so these are hard things to arrive at your desk with in the morning going on, and so we did a level one, three by three empathy factors. And it’s funny because because of my conflict background, I’m like, okay, okay, Marie, but I just I need to build in some conflict resolution here. I know you’re saying that these modules are going to clear it up, but I’m just going to build it in, and I did. But we didn’t use it. And once they started being able to articulate the needs and connect with each other in their from their human heart, right? With clarity, they what had been they used to like avoid each other. They were supposed to meet every morning, but they didn’t want to, and you know, so it was more like quick emails and texts thing, unlike what we were talking about with the clothing online clothing company. And so now, then even before we finished the level one, they were already meeting more regularly and actually finding enjoyment in the meetings. And I got to see as a trainer; it was beautiful, you know, in the exercises where, like, now the body language was soft. There was even some smiles and laughter. I’m like, Wow, so like that’s what we live for, right? Right, exactly. And then when I asked her recently, because and then they what happened was the one of the vice principals had a really challenging interaction with a parent outside the school, and had they had to call the sheriffs, and it it got icky. And she was like reviewing the video on it. She’s like, “Oh no!” And so she brought me in for a de-escalation program for the wider team and the front office. And but when I asked her, like, what would you like? You know, because a lot of the school members have not been trained, like the teachers and obviously the parents and the students haven’t been trained yet. This is not it’s not like embedded in their culture yet, right? At that level, and I’m saying like, well, but what are people noticing? And she said one of the biggest difference makers is how the two of them at the top are relating to each other, and they’re on a team. They they have so much cohesion now with what how they’re operating with the board, and it’s just it’s transformational.
Maria Ross 29:21
Well, that gives everyone relief, right? Nobody wants to be in the you know in the organization where mom and dad are fighting, right?
Catherine Cooley 29:27
Exactly. And so we
Maria Ross 29:29
we need that safety within our own organizations of the leaders have to work on their relationships with each other because everyone’s watching, yeah, and they’re creating the environment that all these other employees have to enter into, and it’s like, ah, do I really want to go back into this house with them arguing all the time, and also not understanding? You know, am I getting not being able to trust information? Am I getting conflicting information because you know he said it, but does she agree? You know, you don’t want your employees. I always feel like there’s 80. In some organizations, of the productivity time is spent on these political issues of your employees looking over their shoulder, and is that really where you want them spending their time? And if you’re contributing to that, you have to take a really hard look in the mirror and say, “What am I modeling? What am I showing them? Because you might think they don’t know, but they know. Absolutely, they see it, they sense it.
Catherine Cooley 30:26
It’s you just feel it in the air.
Maria Ross 30:28
You feel it in the air, and also it’s just I could be spending my time innovating, creatively problem solving, doing the work. But no, I’m spending my time going back and forth between two people who can’t agree, or I’m spending my time making sure I dot all my eyes and cross all my T’s, or I’m going to get in trouble. Like all of those things are such a drain on our people and on our resources, and a leader should care because it impacts the output.
Catherine Cooley 30:56
Yes, it so impacts the output, and having those kind of issues between the leaders is like a recipe for division and faction building totally.
Maria Ross 31:09
Yes,
Catherine Cooley 31:09
and then you you just have it like rippling all over the place, right? Where you don’t want that.
Maria Ross 31:14
Well, everyone’s going to feel like they have to choose a side. That’s what’s going to happen. So yeah, so I I love this connection between this approach of of nonviolent communication and feelings building as an underpinning to your or you know any of your organizational challenges, making sure that I I actually had a great conversation with a guest who is the founder of Bash Creative, and she spoke about the fact that when she started her company with her co-founder, they actually went through a couples counseling. Yeah, I remember that
Catherine Cooley 31:49
episode. I was so impressed, Annalee,
Maria Ross 31:51
Annalee, and I’ll put a link to that one because I like that sounds silly, but it makes so much sense. You are the the steel girders of your organization, and if you have tension, if you have challenge, if you haven’t navigated, what are our rules for engagement, and how will we split the work, and why, and why exactly? So I um I’ll put a link to her episode in the show. Oh, please
Catherine Cooley 32:16
do. Yeah, that was brilliant, and I and I had never heard that before from a a leader, yeah, doing the couple counseling, and and I’ve I’ve worked like with different like founders leaders have seen those kind of of problems, but I never heard anyone take that um as a strategy to go from that angle.
Maria Ross 32:35
I know, and it’s why they were so successful. I mean, they were they’re an events company who thrived during the lockdown of the pandemic? Like, explain that to me, right? So, and she did, and she did, and she did. So, Catherine, this has been so great. What is sort of a last nugget you’d like to leave us with in terms of maximizing the investment or the time that you take in empathy training, in like trying to manage your conflicts, what sort of a gem you can leave us with?
Catherine Cooley 33:08
I would love to leave you with a tool that I I left in a keynote address to a four department division at a college. Okay, so recently, so it’s and it’s so great because right after the keynote, the English department met, and he applied it and told the division, the the dean, “Wow, it works.” So anyway, so it’s those two middle steps: the feelings and the needs, right? But it has something in between. Okay, so it’s which is our thoughts, and so it’s I Feel X because I’m telling myself Y because I need Z, and the thing is, is that that Y step you will not find it in the four steps of NVC for really good reason because if I just blurt out my thoughts. They’re laden with blame and judgment, or whatever. I don’t want to do that, but I want to use my judgments similar to the compass of the feelings. It points me to my needs. If I have the thought she’s a tyrant, it means I have a need for autonomy, shared power, trust. Is all of it? Yeah, that’s what I want to name. She’s. We’re not. I’m not going to go anywhere in that relationship if I tell her I think she’s a tyrant. Right. If I tell her I’m noticing in our interactions, I have. I would like to build some more power sharing in this area. Is that is this something we can experiment with?
Maria Ross 34:37
Yeah.
Catherine Cooley 34:38
That’s a different world.
Maria Ross 34:39
That’s a whole different conversation. So I’m going to reiterate it again. I feel X because I’m telling myself Y.
Catherine Cooley 34:46
Yeah, I’m telling myself she’s a tyrant
Maria Ross 34:48
because I need Z.
Catherine Cooley 34:49
Yes, because because I need a healthy shared power. Right. Roles.
Maria Ross 34:56
But what’s powerful about a fill in the blank sentence like this? Like a template is because it makes you think about it. So you might say, “I feel this because I’m telling myself,” but now I have to have something to put in the Z.
Catherine Cooley 35:10
So now I have to really think
Maria Ross 35:12
about what’s actually going on and what do I need, which is the step we often miss. We’re not naming it.
Catherine Cooley 35:19
Yes, and and I want to give two kind of place ways to cushion this, especially in organizations where feelings where feelings aren’t supposed to be there. Still, so many. You don’t have to say the feelings out loud, but still harvest your feelings. I feel frustrated. I need to listen to that frustration. And back to your point about like why empathy trainings don’t often work in corporate because it’s not embodied. The feeling literacy embodies the empathy, and there’s nothing more frustrating or off-putting or unsustainable as a leader who has like wallpaper empathy rather than empathy that’s coming from their center, their heart, their gut, right? Yeah, and so so, but a way to soften the the X Y Z template, you don’t have to say that the X out loud, right? Never say Y out loud. Yeah, it’s
Maria Ross 36:11
for you and to have the information. Go to Z
Catherine Cooley 36:14
and then go to your requests to meet your Z, right? Your experiments to meet Z, right?
Maria Ross 36:21
And I would actually, I would maybe disagree with that slightly because I think there’s power in sharing with someone that it’s you know when my kid was little and we would we were looking at all his social emotional learning. We taught him. I don’t know how well it stuck, but we taught him to frame things in I statements. I feel yes this way when you do that because it actually explains. It’s not just me. You know, I’m not just going to go into your office and say I need Z. I need to give it some context. So not because you’re doing anything wrong, but I feel this way because I’m telling myself whatever. Maybe you skip that step, but I actually think it’s valuable to share with someone when you’re making a request for a behavior change or a process change to actually say what the impact of that not happening is doing to you, and
Catherine Cooley 37:13
then there’s
Maria Ross 37:13
no blame, there’s no shame, and that would be the first step of
Catherine Cooley 37:16
NBC. Your observations,
Maria Ross 37:18
right? And so
Catherine Cooley 37:19
observed is I leave our meetings and have knots in my throat. Yes,
Maria Ross 37:24
and I think my my belly’s
Catherine Cooley 37:26
tight.
Maria Ross 37:27
Yes, I think that’s powerful to share. Observation. Yeah, even if you’re talking to someone who might not be a very overly emotional person, it’s you’re taking the agency back of like I recognize that this is impacting me. I feel this way because I want to share with you that I need Z. Yes, and then I would also yeah go ahead. I would also say that that actually is very telling to you in terms of if you’re in the right environment or working for the right person, if their response is that they don’t care how you feel. I would say that’s an actual data point as well. Of if you take that approach and you share it, and they’re not even willing to have a conversation because they’re like, “I don’t care how you feel, just do it.” That’s actually information for you to say. Okay, now I need to decide if I want to stay here or not.
Catherine Cooley 38:19
Yes, or if I want to like try to bring the awareness of how important why they might why it would serve them start tuning into feelings as a body intelligence that tells them everything about what they’re needing yeah so there’s before you bail ship right
Maria Ross 38:38
good point good point yeah no I love this, Catherine. This is so great. Thank you so much for these insights and for sharing a little bit about your work and your journey. We’re gonna have all your links in the show notes, but where is a place that folks can go to if they’re on the go and listening right now? Can you share with them audibly a place to go to check out your work?
Catherine Cooley 38:58
Yes, my comfort. My website is peaceable.com, and I’m going to spell that for you because it’s like the English word peaceable, except that it doesn’t have an e at the end of the word because it’s a brand name. So it’s p e a c e a b l.com. Go to my resources page, and you’ll find feelings and needs lists, both for your feelings and needs list for personal relationship repair and advancement, and also organizational. And even and even more important, get Heart Talk. There’s a handout there called Heart Talk that will give you the bones and the soul of NVC, and start you off. Put it on your refrigerator, and the next time you get stuck in a conversation, take it down and at least say, “I feel because I need,” and then see if you can do that kind of listening for the other person involved.
Maria Ross 39:56
Love it, love it, so great. Thank you. I will put all those links in the show notes. As well, thank you, Catherine.
Catherine Cooley 40:01
And also, if you’re having trouble in a organizational, especially, but even if it’s a personal relationship, go ahead and sign up for a free discovery call, and I’ll share with you what my approach would be.
Maria Ross 40:13
Thank you, Catherine, for your time today, and thank you, everyone, for listening to another episode of the Empathy Edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review, and share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit thereempathyedge.com. There, you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources, book me for a keynote or workshop, and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news, and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red Slice Maria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
