There’s a powerful psychological state that can paralyze us, interfere with effective relationships, block our empathy, and cause us to inflict harm. It’s called shame.
Today, David Bedrick shares what shame is, how it’s created, and its connection to trauma. Some say shame keeps us humble, but David shares why we don’t need shame because it’s not the same as embarrassment or regret. We unpack why shame is not a feeling but a psychological state that can leave you numb – and how you can instead create a space of safety and security within yourself. David shares how we can snap out of a shame spiral in the moment and also gives insights as to why some people may feel a need to shame others. David makes us think about our need to “solve,” or pathologize as he puts it, shame, anger, depression, and the like rather than process root causes to make meaning. He offers an intriguing thought experiment to try to break yourself of this tendency! Lastly, we touch on how to unashame conflict and dialogue through conflict in a more productive way.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Shame is different from embarrassment or humiliation. Shame is a psychological state that may have feelings associated with it.
- Negative feelings are not bad – they can even be helpful for understanding our behavior and lead us to making an action toward repair.
- Say the criticisms in your head aloud from the perspective of the negatives – it gives you a chance to respond and advocate for yourself.
“If shame enters my system, the only thing I care about is removing the bad experience I have in myself. I don’t care about you. I care about being low. In the fully shame psyche, you don’t exist as a person that matters to me at all.” — David Bedrick, JD, Dipl. PW
Episode References:
- The Unshaming Way: amazon.com/Unshaming-Way-Compassionate-Dismantling-Shame-Heal/dp/B0CWL19X7G
- The Empathy Edge: Edwin Rutsch: How “Empathy Circles” Can Change the World
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About David Bedrick, JD, Dipl. PW Founder, The Santa Fe Institute for Shame-based Studies and Author of The Unshaming Way
David is a teacher, counselor, and attorney. He was adjunct faculty at the University of Phoenix and the Process Work Institute in the U.S. and Poland. He is the founder of the Santa Fe Institute for Shame-based Studies, where he offers facilitation training to deepen the skills and awareness of therapists, coaches, and healers and workshops for individuals to further their own personal development. He is a writer for Psychology Today and the author of four books: Talking Back to Dr. Phil: Alternatives to Mainstream Psychology; Revisioning Activism: Bringing Depth, Dialogue, and Diversity to Individual and Social Change; and You Can’t Judge a Body by Its Cover: 17 Women’s Stories of Hunger, Body Shame and Redemption. His recent book, The Unshaming Way, has been endorsed by Gabor Mate.
Connect with David:
Santa Fe Institute for Shame-based Studies: davidbedrick.com
Facebook: facebook.com/david.bedrick.9
Instagram: instagram.com/david.bedrick
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FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Maria, welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. There’s a powerful psychological state that can paralyze us, interfere with effective relationships, block our empathy and cause us to inflict harm. It’s called shame. Today, we’re going to unpack what shame is and how it’s not only harmful to your soul, but prevents you from tapping into empathy for others. My guest is David belder, founder of the Santa Fe Institute For shame based studies, where he offers facilitation training to deepen the skills and awareness of therapists, coaches and healers, as well as workshops for individuals to further their own personal development. He’s a writer for Psychology Today, and the author of four books, including his latest, the unshaming way today, David shares what shame is, how it’s created, and its connection to trauma. Some say shame keeps us humble, but David shares why we don’t need shame, because it’s not the same as embarrassment or regret. We’ll unpack why shame is not a feeling but a psychological state that can leave you numb, and how you can instead create a space of safety and security within yourself. David shares how we can snap out of a shame spiral in the moment, and also gives insights as to why some people may feel a need to shame others. David makes us think about our need to solve or pathologize, as he puts it, shame, anger, depression and the like, rather than process root causes to make meaning. And he offers an intriguing thought experiment to try to break yourself of this tendency. Lastly, we touch on how to unshame conflict instead and dialog through conflict in a more productive way. There were so many gems in this episode. Take a listen. David, welcome to the empathy edge podcast to help us unpack all things shame, which is a little bit of a scary topic, I know for some people, but it’s so important in being able to name it and claim it and recognize it so that we can leave room to embrace our empathy. So
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 02:44
welcome to the show. Thank you. Pleasure to be here with you.
Maria Ross 02:47
So my first question, as it is for all my guests, just briefly tell us how you got to this work. How did you get to this work in shame? Oh,
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 02:56
well, the first thing is that is a story like for many of us, the gifts that we have, I call it the genius, but on meaning the genius, the spirit of our gifts, is usually woven into our story, the wounded healer. We can call it that. And I grew up in a family of a father who used fists and belts to express his rage. We can call that abuse. That would be the right word, violence. Those would be the right words, traumatizing. That would be the right word. So that’s a real thing, a big deal. And I had a mother who was relatively disempowered. I’m 69 so that was a generation, not that everybody’s empowered today. And being disempowered for her meant I have to act like this is not happening. I have to act like I’m not in a family house, house, sorry, family house with violence in it. I have to deny it and dismiss it. That wouldn’t happen. Your father would never do that. I’m making the sounds of it right, bleeding that she had. I’m not putting her down. That was how she coped. I said, Mom, look what’s happening. He would never do that, even if she was watching the violence. He would say the next day that didn’t happen, you’re getting so upset. Why do you get so angry about things? So in that story, you have two parts. You have a perpetrator of a kind of a violence, a story for someone else, could be a parent or a teacher or a culture or a police officer or a hospital that says you’re a person of color, we don’t think that you have pain. The perpetrating energy could be a system or person, and there’s a mother figure, it wouldn’t have to be a mother. I’m not blaming mothers that says that’s not really happening. Why are you thinking those things? Maybe you’re making things up. Maybe you have an emotional problem, not a violence problem. So when I take in her, that mother, I then deny my experience, dismiss my experience, and I end up with two beliefs that get entered into my body and psyche. What’s wrong with me? Why am I like this? Why am I angry? How come I do it? Why am I said? Said, if maybe I need someone to heal me and make me a better person, a forgiving person, a good person, a not angry person. Or I guess maybe I don’t matter that much because there’s a lot of difficulties, but no one’s taking them seriously. So then I think, well, maybe my views, my opinions, my experiences, don’t matter so much. So when a person walks around with a What’s wrong with me? Why am I like this? Maybe I don’t matter that much. Maybe I should withdraw and not bring myself out so much. I call that experience, that belief shame. Think of this word. It’s like self annihilating you as you are, and your experience and your hurts and your feelings and your opinions make them go away.
Maria Ross 05:41
Yeah. Well, so that’s such a profound story. And I think what I’m hearing from that is where shame exists is there’s sort of a perpetrator and a denier, and sometimes the denier is external, but it’s sometimes the denier internal as well.
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 05:56
Absolutely, if you they go together. So let’s say you as a woman, identify person. I think you know, right? So let’s say you say I went and I spoke my mind the other day, and then afterwards, I’m thinking of a client, a woman client. Afterwards, she said, Oh my gosh, I probably said too much last night. Why did I say so much? Why did I listen to what’s going on inside the head? What did I do? I really don’t try to do that. I should have listened more. I mean, I think those exact words I may took up too much space. So in that case, she has an internalized oppression, something that says you as a woman should not take up too much space. And if you do, because you had a couple of glasses of wine, you’re going to have to suffer the criticism you should feel really bad about that. Make Yourself Smaller, shrink yourself. Be a nice I’m there for other people, listening. Person, again, lives in her head. So in that case, it’s an outer situation, a social condition, many women have internalized, not all. I’m not trying to generalize well with but I’ve read enough and studied enough to know that that’s true. And then when she goes out and says, Wait a second, Maria, I have my opinion. David, wait a second. I don’t think you’re right. Let me tell you what. Listen and I have some authority. I’m going to speak with some authority and power. She might get shame entered. I’m too talkative, I’m too loud, I’m too much. I shouldn’t be so sensitive to things that point. I’m too much. I’m too sensitive that shame something’s wrong with I’m not just a woman coming into her power, a woman who has every right to speak. I’m a person who’s doing something wrong. I should go get healing. So I’m quote, unquote around that, so I’m less like that. Wow,
Maria Ross 07:32
yeah, there’s so much there. And I think that’s a really great definition, because it’s with that viewpoint of shame. It’s very different from embarrassment and humiliation. There’s just there’s an element of almost these two opposing forces, each trying to get heard within your own head and also externally to you, and you’re trying to navigate those and the feeling you’re left with is shame. Would you actually call shame a feeling or psychological state?
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 08:00
I would call it a psychological state. There are feelings associated with it. But here’s the problem, most people who think about shame and who’ve done great been able to have done great work on that, describe shame as this incredibly painful feeling, but most shame goes with no feeling at all. For instance, let’s go back to that story of that imaginary woman, not only right? And let’s say she says I was so good tonight. I really listened to people, and I didn’t cut anybody off, and I really didn’t push my own point of view. I feel good. So now listen, what’s opera inside something’s operating saying you could feel good about yourself if you shrink, make yourself smaller. Don’t write about intelligence. She’s not talking about saying I had the most painful experience tonight. Your shame is in powerfully operating on whether she’s herself, how she feels it, how she connects with people, how she influences people, whether her intelligence is going to get seen, whether she’s going to feel be invited into people’s workplaces, all kinds of things, but she doesn’t have any apparent negative feelings. Wow, there’s almost that most shame is like that. Most like, oh my gosh, there are oh my gosh, you humiliated me on the podcast. And I’m like, Oh my gosh. But most shame was not like that. Yeah,
Maria Ross 09:16
it almost seems very numbing and paralyzing versus feeling. So thank you for that. You know, as we’re here on the empathy edge, how do you feel that shame impedes or hinders our ability to access our empathy for other people in what ways? How does that manifest? I got almost
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 09:36
fury when you asked me, that’s funny. I didn’t wasn’t expecting that, because it’s such an important question, because there’s an idea that some people have been taught, you need a certain amount of shame, because I should feel ashamed if I do something gross to you, right, right, to a child or to a bunch of people, right? Shouldn’t I feel bad,
Maria Ross 09:59
right? Otherwise, I’m. Sociopath, right? That’s the thing we tell ourselves, yeah, you need shame.
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 10:03
And I think that’s, I understand what they’re saying. I do need some feeling that’s not so pleasant inside of myself, but that’s not shame. That’s like, oh my gosh, embarrassment, or oh my gosh, I feel guilty, or I really care, oh my gosh, Maria, I don’t even know you. When I did that, I feel really bad remorse. How can I I’m accountable? I maybe have to I write a letter into your audience and say that that was me. What can I do to repair those are all appropriate. Oh, David, that was I feel terrible. David, why did you do that? Oh, shit, that was a mistake. That’s not shame, right? That’s appropriate feelings that lead me to make changes, right? Shame. If shame enters my system, let’s say I do something gross to you here, right? If shame enters my system, the only thing I care about is removing the bad experience I have in myself. I don’t care about you. I care about I’m low. I’m glued to my shame
Maria Ross 11:02
existent for me, right? You’re in self preservation at that,
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 11:05
in my feelings. And what do I need to do? Should I lie? Should I change? Should I steal? Should I make something up? Should I make a persona around this genuine empathy for what you went through and that I actually hurt you and it matters to me? There’s no such thing in this, in the fully shame psyche. You don’t exist as a person that matters to me at all. I think
Maria Ross 11:25
that’s so important for us to understand, because we do tend to lump all those things together, and it’s okay to have regret, it’s okay to make a mistake and feel bad about it, yeah. But I think the difference I’m seeing is that when you feel those other things, you can make an action towards repair, versus if you’re in the shame mode, like we said, You’re so much into self preservation, you’re not even thinking about the perspective or the viewpoint of the other person.
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 11:49
Yeah, no, people don’t exist. In a sense, the shame is self annihilating. So I’m not really here. I can’t really, I can’t, for instance, I won’t be able to think and explore. So, David, you said this rough thing with Maria. By the way, everybody, I have nothing rough to say.
Maria Ross 12:05
These are all scenarios. We also know.
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 12:09
What was in you, David, when you wanted to say that? Well, it was a bad thing. I was a terrible thing. I I know. But what was in you Was there an energy that you felt held back about Was there some way that you need to express something? Maybe then you’ve only belonged to Maria. Let’s get to know something about what you did not like you should be punished. I mean, let’s get to know maybe you did something. Sometimes I give my wife, married for 20 years, Lisa, sometimes I give her a little I’m calling it a jab, not a physical jab, a couple of sarcastic jokes, right? I do that more than two times. He says, So, David, what’s going on? That was the third little
Maria Ross 12:45
the third little nudge, yeah. He says to me, are
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 12:49
you taking me on a guild trip? Should we? Should I pack my bags? He says, I give her a little guilt, right? So, yeah, I’m full of shame. I’m just like, I didn’t do that, or she’s invisible. But then I can actually say, Huh, what did I do? I did the bad thing. I’m a bad person, I know, but what’d you do? Right? Something had happened the other day. I never talked to her about that’s really been upsetting me. So now I’m actually doing a deeper repair. I see what’s going on, but I have ability to reflect and think maybe there’s something in me that I needed to deal with, yeah, with her, not by making her feel guilty and giving her indirect jabs, right? Supporting that, but I’m like, maybe there’s a reason. Maybe there was something in me, huh? Maybe I should get to know myself deeper, not trying to figure out how to censor myself and impress myself, right? You get to know myself well, that’s,
Maria Ross 13:35
I mean, that’s also like we talk about that a lot on the show as well, is like that sense of emotional regulation, where you can sort of look objectively at your behavior and have the presence to say, Hmm, what’s the root cause of that? That’s why do I feel this way? I do this a lot. You know, I have a 10 and a half year old son, and we don’t, I don’t always have the best interactions with him, and when I don’t, I kind of think back, like, what contributed to that? Was it just that he was being mouthy, or did I just get off a really difficult client call? Yeah, and I’m feeling bad about myself, right? And that’s coming out as aggression. It’s coming out as disappointment, it’s coming out as whatever negative emotion that is. But you know, I’m not a saint, and I’m not able to do that all the time. Sometimes you’re in that frame of mind where you can’t get objective about the root cause. So I love what you’re saying here, that even when we’re in, you know, a lot of people call it the shame spiral. But if we can catch ourselves somehow and be able to have that objectivity to say what’s actually really going on for me, what do you find works well to help someone sort of, you know, if there was, like, a magic wand or a magic snap you could do to get someone out of that shame spiral in the moment? What kind of techniques work in
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 14:47
the moment? In the moment, the person needs what I call it, unshaming Witness. Now, what is that? And they may not have that inside, because sometimes I’m just filled with my negative feelings and I don’t they take over, yeah, even though I’ve worked with the. About 35 years, there are moments I don’t have it. I’m don’t know myself in certain spots. So But if a person could get inside or outside, or even a I look at James Baldwin picture a dead author or a tree or a spirit or a goddess or a friend or something inside them, if a person can ask themselves, whatever I’m feeling and wrestling with. What’s it like in my body? That means, stop the cursive, the thoughts, the patterns that what should I do? What should I do? What’s it feel like in my body, even for four minutes when my stomach is tense, in my energy, and if you could move a little bit with that energy, let your arms swing. Curl up. You leave the ideas about what you did and didn’t do wrong and what’s wrong with you, and you enter what I call like a pure experience. This is what’s going on for me. I just want to curl up and hide. Go ahead, curl up and hide. A minute of that helps, because you’re outside of shames idea. You’re just having your own experience that’s really deep and not easy. It’s not easy for people only because we don’t do it. It’s not hard. It’s just that, right? We’re out in practice, yeah? When I’m up and I’m upset about something, I should just go feel in my body, I’m thinking, I’m trying to figure myself out for six hours. You know? Yeah, yeah. Doesn’t help. The other thing that many people need, but not all, is if there is some kind of inner criticism going on, oh, I really screwed up. I can’t believe the way I did it, that with that podcast. Oh, why didn’t you do that? That’s like a bunch of right? Somebody’s beating me up. You could say, right? I’m not just thinking I could have done that better. I’m thinking, Oh, I didn’t do this. I didn’t do that. I should have done this. How come I didn’t do this? I don’t look look in the mirror. I don’t like this about myself. If that kind of criticism is going on, if a person can say those criticisms out loud as if they are the critical person, they would really screwed up. What are you doing? This was not the right shirt to wear. I just had noticed my eyes were seen it. This is not the right shirt to wear. What is this on video? If you can say it out loud with the energy of it, and you didn’t do this, right? And you should suffer if you can say those things out loud so your own ears can hear it. Writing it down is not sufficient, right? Need to hear like, oh, that’s going on inside of me. Yeah, yeah, you could respond to advocate for yourself, even if that was two minutes and two minutes, really helps people a lot. But isn’t that,
Maria Ross 17:25
you know, we talk about how we talk to ourselves, Is that helpful to say that out loud to ourselves and be the narrative that we’re continuing to listen to
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 17:35
as long as you’re saying it from this place, I’m gonna now say what that critical voice is saying, got it? I’m not saying I’m a screw up. I’m a screw up. I’m a screw up. That would be good. But David, you’re a screwed up. I’m talking as if I’m talking to him. Yeah, they grew up. You did this wrong. And why didn’t you get more sleep last night? You knew you’re going to be tired, yeah, and then I’m going to be like, because something is going to start noticing that figure, that orientation, that Father, that that mother system, that’s mother, that police system, that racial system, that talks to people about how with their beauty that lives inside of me, that awakens people to the level of violence that’s actually happening. And the level of violence is enormous. It’s not minor. It’s not like, why could I add a nicer hair today? It’s much more brutal, you know, listen to those and say those things. So I want to
Maria Ross 18:25
ask you about, you know, kind of thinking about this, also from a professional context and a work context. What do you think is behind the need for some leaders who embrace really dictatorial approaches to leadership? What is it about those people, especially those leaders, and I’ve experienced some of them, where they have a need to shame others. What’s going on there? Like it’s not even about correcting their performance, it’s not about supporting them. It’s something much more intentional, about embarrassing them, shaming them, calling them out relentlessly on an email that’s copied to everyone in the department. That type of behavior, what do you think is behind that need to shame others? Is it shame internal and they’re just trying to direct it externally, like what’s going on there?
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 19:16
It’s a really deep question. I’m just taking a second and feeling because I have ideas, which I’m happy to say, but it’s a deep question. It’s like, it’s part it’s one of the questions of our world, because of the cycles of violence and the denial of the violence. Well, let’s do this to these people, and then it’s justified. I don’t know, justified or not, but whatever, there’s so much denial dismissal. When I said my mother was doing about the level of violence in the world, that makes it difficult to have empathy, regardless of what my position is, about Middle East, about Russia, have some empathy about the level of violence that’s actually happening, right? Coral Reef, or maybe that’s for what’s happening. Bring to the forest, whatever it is, the capacity to have that, to see that. So I don’t have the answer, but I know certain things that are true enough because I see them enough, right? The cycle of vengeance is incredible, in part, because of unprocessed trauma. I’m not saying everything is unprocessed trauma, but if you look through the lens of understanding trauma, it will help you understand what’s happening. So if I’m a person who’s been really hurt by, let’s say my father, just as that example, and there’s no processing that I haven’t processing mean I haven’t felt how painful it is. I haven’t told the story a little bit. I haven’t, maybe found some of the anger I have that I can now use in my life, that I need to publish a book I don’t know anything about, that it’s all inside of me. When a person is traumatized, they get locked into an experience of themselves. The experience is I’m a smaller person, relatively powerless, less less powerful up against bigger forces. There is David. He’s seven, and he’s got a father who’s 200 pounds and angry. I’m a little person relative to that power. When that happens, I am out of touch with the power I have. Now I enter an experience with somebody who criticizes me if I don’t know anything about that, or unprocessed that, David experienced himself as a seven year old with a big power. Not I’m a 60 year, nine year old man who’s published books, who is a lawyer, who’s test students. I’m not only that, I’m not putting it down right. I’m not only that, that little one wants to feel powerful because he doesn’t and he ought to feel more powerful, right? And say, No, people will listen to me. I can cry and it matters. My sensitivity matters. I’m I can do something about that now, that little one in me, if he’s dominant, takes over the scene. I’m not saying he’s been he needs all the help I can give him, right? He might put you in a place where you feel smaller and down, and that is somewhat satisfying. I’m not saying it’s deeply resolution and satisfied, but it’s somewhat satisfying because I feel bigger and I want to feel bigger and I ought to feel bigger, and, yeah, I need to feel bigger. This is not the way to do it, right,
Maria Ross 22:18
but it’s retaliatory. It feels good in the moment to kind of express your power, even if it’s in a negative way. And it’s really interesting, because I’ve been doing this work for several years now, specifically on empathy, but for a long time, was in corporate environments. I have my own business, and I think back to leaders and bosses I had who were not empathetic, who were and I’ve said this before on the show, and I don’t use the term lightly, psychologically abusive, and I wish I knew then what I know now. And I might have gone into their office and been like, are you okay, right? Like, what just happened back there? Yeah. Are you okay? And just to see the reaction, just to see what would happen if you stopped giving them something to push against, yeah, how the response would go?
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 23:10
So many people would get moved by that. And then there’s going to be some percent. I don’t know what the percentage? I don’t have statistics, right, right, right, like 1015, I don’t know. I’m making up numbers. The people thought this is not based on research, but some percent of people will not be satisfied by anything other than I want to feel this way bigger than other people lord it over them for a period of time. And groups do that, will do that. And how do we interrupt that cycle? As a Jewish person. You know, I’ve studied Jewish history, German history. When a country gets crushed, World War One, Germany had such a disempowered, crushing kind of experience, it should be shocking to any psychological minded person that something could rise up that feels really big and powerful. I’m not putting that down. People do that and all over the place, right? So here are the the Nazis are the example. These examples in five me at times. And
Maria Ross 24:07
yeah, sadly, we have lots of examples we could we could point to. Then
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 24:11
something rises up. What’s going to happen with that? How do we bear witness to that? Do we want to crush them again? I want to stop it. That’s for sure. Let’s stop it. That boss, if they can’t wake up, let’s police them. If someone’s going to hurt some child, let’s police child, let’s police them. Let’s block them up. But what does it look like to make a longer term systemic change? How do we look at those things in a way that brings some kind of healing? That stuff has shifted? Now, I’m powerful. You think you’re powerful? Now I want to be the one who’s powerful. That’s good. I want to feel powerful, but the cycle, yeah, is not sustainable. Yeah.
Maria Ross 24:41
So I want to get to, you know, your book The unshaming way. And I know, oh my gosh, wrote a book. Hey, I want to talk a little bit about, I want to talk a little bit about that method. And maybe we don’t, I mean, we don’t have a lot of time left, but I just want to give people the high points, because I want them to check out the book. Mm. But what are some of the foundational pillars of the unshaming way that you can share with us today?
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 25:04
The foundational pillar, given what I’m saying, is inside of people, most people, there’s something I call a shaming witness, that means something happens, and you think, what should I do? What did I do wrong? How do I correct that? I call that pathologizing. I look at myself as having a an illness may be too strong. I’m depressed. How I can go away? I’m angry. Go away. I’m a procrastinator. How do I make my procrastinate? I’m eating too much ice cream. How do I stop eating so much ice cream? Whatever that thing is, we quickly say, How do I not do this? How do I change that experience? That’s the way almost everybody thinks. And for good reason I want to, I don’t sleep as much well as I would like to. I would somebody could help me sleep more. I want to do that. How do I solve it? Sounds great. So, and we live in a world that’s like that. And healing, what people think of as healing, is like that. But what that doesn’t do is say, Oh, you’re depressed. What’s your depression like? Oh, you’re angry. Show me some of your anger on the way you might need that. Oh, you don’t sleep. What do you if I wrote on social media, I don’t sleep a lot, I would get lots of suggestions. Empathy. Oh, David, I’m sorry. I get lots of suggestions. Have you tried this? Have you tried this? Tea? Have you tried Have you exercised more? We
Maria Ross 26:16
go into advice giving mode because we want to take your pain away. And I talk about this, when we talk about empathy hijacking, where someone shares an experience with you and you say, Oh, I know exactly how you feel, because the same thing happened to me. And here’s what I did, and you should do this and this and this, and all of a sudden it’s not about you anymore. It’s about me. I’ve decentered the narrative. And so that sounds like
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 26:39
I love that. Sorry. I’m interrupting my knees. Yeah,
Maria Ross 26:43
no, I mean, sounds very similar, that we almost empathy hijack ourselves at times where we don’t want to let ourselves feel the feeling or deal with the issue, where we instantly jump into problem solving mode, and you’re calling that path pathology, apologizing, apologizing. Thank you. I apologize.
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 27:02
Something’s wrong with me, yeah? Like, what? How do I fix it? Right? That’s so brilliant. I love what you said, empathy, hijack. I never heard that term. That’s what. And then self, with your calling, self, hijacking, empathy hijacking, that’s, I call that shame, yeah, okay, not saying that. I’m not the right word. I’m saying no, I like it language that’s well, let me say this self empathy hijacking is a shaming act, because it this is me from my own experience. It’s not interested in my own experience. So then unshaming would have to say, let’s go back to the example of me being up at night. Elm would say, almost nobody ever what’s it like when you’re up at night? What like is that something very fundamental, like, if you want that empathy, you have to know what your empathize. What’s it like? Are you nervous? Are you enjoying yourself because no one’s because you’re in the dark and no one’s Are you finally get to play? Are you Instagram and just looking for videos that interest you, and you don’t get to do that in day because you’re working really hard? Yeah, going, are you all the pains and traumas coming up that you didn’t get? Like, what’s actually happening there? We don’t know.
Maria Ross 28:08
Yeah, I love I want to give all my listeners a little an invitation, a little thought experiment around this, in that the next time someone’s sharing something like this, whether they’re expressing a problem that they’re having, or an emotion, you know, frustration, anger, fear, shame, stop, take a pause, take a breath and ask them what it’s like, you know, especially in the advice giving mode we’re always in. So someone’s talking about, I don’t feel I feel like I’m losing touch with my child. I feel like they’re distancing themselves with me, instead of jumping into all the assessments of what’s happening, what what’s that like? What does that feel like? What does that look like? So that’s a little thought experiment for everyone that’s listening to us today, just to practice that that’s amazing. What do you find is the reaction to that? Where does that lead? Does that lead to the person then actually processing what’s going on for them because they’re being asked that question,
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 29:03
yeah, they begin to process and find, I’m calling intelligence, something meaningful inside. But here’s the thing that I know, most people don’t know how to answer that question in a deep way, because, not because we’re not psychologically minded and developed, because no one ever said, Oh, you, you’re six years old. You said, Daddy, I have a headache. Oh, is it a pounding headache? Or is it sharp? Or it’s like a pressure on your head? Is it making you dizzy? You want to close your eyes and you’re nauseous? That like, that would be like, more like a migraine. Or is it like piercing in your eye, like no one’s if if people don’t, oh, you’re sad. What’s your sadness like? Oh, is it like this in your body? Are you feeling heavy? Do you want to scream? Like, those are different, right? One sadness is like, one of the moment wants to scream and yell, the other part wants to fall down on the floor, like, and because, in that you could do that with a child, you don’t have to have, like, a psychological degree. Yeah, do that. But. We’re not used to being asked that, so we don’t have that equipment. So most of the time, when I say that, the people I have to slow down, what’s it like? And they still say, Well, you know, it’s anger is bad, and I’m angry. And I’m like, I know. And then where is the anger in your body at the moment? Just, is it in your throat? Is it in your fingers that are curled up underneath you. Put your awareness on that body part and just hang out and feel that, not as a was a word, just entering the body, the soma, somatic experience. I use that term, the Levine he uses that term. What I mean by is the experience of the body takes us out of that pathologizing so many people need to be led into. What’s it like to have a feeling in my body? I don’t know. I have a bunch of words.
Maria Ross 30:51
Yeah, this is the thing you know we talk about again, kind of going back to being a parent. These tools I’ve learned apply to leadership teams as well as parenting, but this idea of as my son, when he was very young, was helping him build his vocabulary of what the emotions were, what the words were, and helping him understand, are you know, are you sad or depressed, or are you angry? Are you bored? Like helping him figure out when he has a feeling, how do I name that feeling and the shades of gray that exist in all of those different feelings that you can have, right? You can not feel good, but is it because you’re sad, you’re angry, you’re frustrated, you’re hopeless, like, what are those things? And it was so important to give him that language. But you know, we’re raising kids in a different time, and when you and I were younger, nobody talked about that. I mean, you just felt what you felt, and no one explained it to you, and you didn’t dissect it, and you just moved on. You know, since you
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 31:49
got sent to a medical doctor, or you got sent to a medical doctor, know what to do.
Maria Ross 31:53
I want to ask this question as we kind of wrap up, which is really, really important one, and it was intriguing one that you had brought up with me, but
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 32:02
level your questions, by the way, and your insights. So thank you. But go ahead. How do we
Maria Ross 32:06
Yeah, how do we unshame conflict? Because, as we know, the workplace teams that are brought together, very diverse teams that are brought together depending on your family. You and I are both New Yorkers. We don’t shy away from conflict. Not everybody is raised that way. So how do we how can we unshame conflict? Because we need a healthy amount of conflict in order to make sure that we’re hearing and getting different perspectives. And conflict doesn’t have to mean anger. Conflict can just mean disagreement. How do we unshame that? Yeah,
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 32:40
unshaming anything means to allow the thing to show itself in a form that people are going to be uncomfortable with, right? I want to show you my depression. I want to show you my anxiety, etc. So what do we have to how do you unchain conflict? You have to create a space. Somebody has to witness it. Maybe it’s me doing it in with my in conflict with you right here, if I can be in conflict and also keep an eye on the two of us. If not, then we need another person. That other person’s job is not to be on a side or advocate for upside it’s to witness the conflict. How do you do that? Then you say, if you and I are in a conflict, and then somebody should say, David, can you hold on a second? What’s happened? What’s coming out of you. Sorry, we’re gonna get to know that. Maria, if you could say the thing that is bothering you upsetting you as strongly as you can. Now, if it’s in your business, that would have to different places are gonna have to be different, yeah, of course you could say all the way, don’t hold it back. Be as direct as you can, as sharp as you can, as clear as you can. David, I know that’s not gonna be pleasant, but we’re gonna get to you. Please bring it out, even if it doesn’t seem only right to you, yeah, bring it out. And then you kind of go, right, yeah. And then kind of go, and then I help them that with that facilitator helps you do it. Is it this? Are you? Would you want to say this? Also, I want to help you feel like I really said something. And then we have to say to David, what would you come out of you? You have a position of sidedness or whatever? Yeah, let’s make sure that comes up. Now that’s not solving the conflict. Now we have two sides, but now at least we know they are we’re laying them bare. Yeah, I’m not just kind of like, poke you afterwards and I hate you after we’re done. And then we have to learn, like, your word empathy. How do I now, if I’m still some level of satisfaction, that what I what’s in me is out somebody heard it. Maybe it’s not you, maybe it was somebody else who’s here. How can I consider your side, not by trying to be nice to you, but have a little bit of that in me? Can I can I see why someone would even think that around me feel that way? If I can get some connection with a little empathy? Yeah, and you could they. That would be great, but both of those come in. What do you think?
Maria Ross 35:02
Yeah, this reminds me of and I’ll put a link in the show notes. MY CONVERSATION WITH Edwin rush, who ones runs the Center for building a culture of empathy. He’s one of the founding members, and they do a technique called empathy circles that I’ve been trained in that facilitation. He trains people. They train people all over the world for free in this technique, and it’s a really powerful, and I will say painful exercise in active listening, so that people feel heard. And it’s very tightly constructed, and there’s a lot of guardrails around it, but it has enabled him to have these conversations at very, very divisive political rallies in our country over the last few decades. And the goal is not conversion, it’s connection. And so to kind of take this up a level, what I’m hearing you say also is that there doesn’t need to be shame and conflict. It’s just how we’re dealing with the conflict and how we’re navigating our way through the conflict that is making us feel so bad about it. Maybe is that kind of what I hear you saying? I
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 36:01
think it’s exactly true. Okay, we need people who can hold strong things, right? I was involved in a helping facilitate a conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. So somebody has to be able to hold how violent I feel how much I want to, like, smash you because of what I’ve gone through. If we try to tamp that down, we should expect it to blow up when I’m not there. But we also don’t want to, but we also want to say, go ahead, kill somebody. I’m not put the gun away. Use your voice anyway. So that holding the heavy conflict is a big deal. I see you’re giving me a little signal of, like, wrapping up and I’m enjoying our conversation. No,
Maria Ross 36:42
I really am, too. And I think these are really important points and that we have to be we have to be cognizant of shame and the role that it plays and how it impacts our ability to connect with each other and to connect, I guess, to connect with ourselves too, both, right, right? Well, we could talk way longer. I know maybe we’ll have you back on have a part two, but so I want to make sure everyone knows about the book The unshaming way. We’re going to put a link to it in the show notes. We’ll have all your links in the show notes. But for anyone who might be on the go right now, can you share the best place that they can find out more about you and your work?
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 37:19
Yeah, Instagram, I have a lot of material there. That’s no cost that you can find there. It’s under David, and my last name is Bedrick, B, E, D, R, I, C, K, David, like bedrock with an i, David, better can if you search Instagram, you would find me. And yeah, we’ll have
Maria Ross 37:37
those links as well in the show notes, so folks can connect with you. David. Thank you so much. Like there were so many insights in this conversation and just different ways to look at this, this was a very timely conversation, I think, for all of us and for not only for our workplaces and ourselves, but for our culture as well. So thank you for the work that you’re doing. We appreciate you
David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 37:56
so welcome. Thanks for inviting me and asking me such good questions and and
Maria Ross 38:00
thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review and share with a colleague or a friend, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.